In this episode of The Art of Imperfect Adulting, Amy Stone speaks with Colette Fehr about marriage, divorce, and the impact of family dynamics on adult relationships. Based in Orlando, Florida, Colette candidly shares her journey from growing up in a traditional, conflict-filled New York household to navigating her own early marriage, divorce, and eventual career as a couples therapist. Listeners will gain insights into how childhood experiences unconsciously shape relationship choices, why emotional disconnection—not conflict—is a leading destroyer of marriages, and how to have the difficult conversations that lead to lasting love.

About Colette Fehr:

Colette Jane Fehr is a licensed psychotherapist and nationally recognized relationship expert. She’s the author of The Cost of Quiet: How to Have the Hard Conversations That Create Secure, Lasting Love, coming out February 2026 from Putnam and Penguin Random House. Colette co-hosts the hit podcast Insights from the Couch: Real Talk for Women at Midlife and Love Thy Neighbor: The Relationship Show, and her TEDx talk Secrets of a Couples Therapist was selected as a TED Editors’ Pick.

Main Topics Covered:

1. How childhood family dynamics, including loud conflict and divorce, shape unconscious patterns in adult relationships and marriage
2. The myth that successful relationships are free of conflict, and why learning to handle conflict constructively is essential
3. Colette’s experience of getting married young, going through divorce, and raising children—often counter to her peer group’s expectations
4. The societal and generational stigmas around divorce, especially for women, and why leaving can be the healthiest choice
5. The journey from “good girl” people-pleasing and self-abandonment to finding one’s voice and boundaries in relationships
6. Recognizing fawning and people-pleasing as trauma responses—and the path to unlearning them for healthier love
7. The importance of seeking skilled, specialized couples therapy (including discernment counseling) and not all therapists are equally equipped
8. Colette’s book "The Cost of Quiet: How to Have the Hard Conversations That Create Secure, Lasting Love," with practical tools for women to confidently express their needs

Quote from the Episode: "The number one factor that destroys relationships is emotional disconnection. Not arguing, not having differences, not even infidelity. It’s disconnection." — Colette Fehr

Timestamps: [00:00:06] Introduction and guest welcome; Colette shares her New Yorker roots and years in Orlando, Florida

[00:00:43] What Colette loves about Orlando: eternal sunshine and multiculturalism

[00:01:02] Introducing today’s topic: marriage and divorce

[00:01:21] Colette’s personal history: two marriages, one divorce

[00:01:45] Early marriage story—married at 24, divorced at 31, balancing motherhood and changing social circles

[00:04:13] How parents’ marriage and conflict modeled relationship dynamics for Colette

[00:06:51] The myth of “no conflict” in healthy relationships and the real importance of constructive communication

[00:08:37] How Colette’s childhood influenced her career choice as a therapist

[00:10:55] The cultural stigma of divorce in Irish Catholic New York during the 1980s

[00:13:01] Research on divorce: why co-parenting quality, not marital status, predicts child well-being

[00:15:07] Divorce as a part of social change: women initiating divorce and the evolving expectations of marriage

[00:16:55] How early family wounds and societal narratives unconsciously shaped Colette’s partner choice

[00:18:32] Unpacking the unconscious versus lessons learned only through experience

[00:21:01] The “representative” self in courtship versus the reality of living together

[00:22:14] Colette’s road to becoming a couples therapist after a bad counseling experience

[00:27:43] The pitfalls of seeking therapy only at the “brink of divorce” and losing one’s voice in marriage

[00:28:44] People-pleasing, trauma, fawning, and self-abandonment explained

[00:31:51] Strategies to shift from survival (fawning) to authentic communication

[00:32:15] Who Colette told first about her decision to divorce, and the resulting social fallout

[00:34:31] Colette’s professional platforms: her podcasts, radio presence, TEDx talk, and new book

Colette’s TedX Talk can be found here:https://youtu.be/8tSUOB2yEd0?si=XdHPdEwuSJeyzkRv

Website: https://www.insightsfromthecouch.org/

Book: The Cost of Quiet https://bookshop.org/a/87491/9780593852743

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Welcome to the Art of Imperfect Adult and Colette Fehr. Are you ready for a

fun chat today? I can't wait. Yay. I'm so

excited. Share with us what part of the world you call home.

So I am in Orlando, Florida. But the funny thing is I've been here

for 29 years, and I almost still don't think of this as

home. I'm a New Yorker, like so many Floridians,

so when I think home, I still think New York, even though I really

love living in Florida, too. That's so fun. All right, though,

here's a fun question. Even though you think of New York as home, what's something

that you love or enjoy about your. Where you actually

live? Orlando. The eternal sunshine. Wearing

flip flops in January. Right. I mean, you

just can't beat it. It's such an easy, nice life. And I love

that there are so many people from all over the world

here that call this home. It's like a true melting

pot in the best way. What a fantastic answer. All

right, today we're going to talk about marriage and divorce. Are you

ready? I am ready. This is all I talk about all day, every day, and

I love this topic. So let's do it. Very cool.

To kick this off. How many times have you been married and. Or

divorced? Well, don't. We're not at the end of the

road here, so we'll see what the final is. But I'm just kidding.

I'm married now for the second time. So two

marriages, one divorce. All right. Those are the

statistics. How old were you? If you

don't mind sharing the. When you first got married and how many

years did that marriage last? Yeah, it's. I think it's

so interesting because like I said, I'm from New York. I. The typical

trajectory for my cohort of friends is. And I think

a lot of people in New York, especially now, but I'm 52, so this is

going back. You know, I was in college in the

early to mid-90s, is that people were getting married

in their 30s, in their early 30s, but I met my first

husband at 18 years old on the first day of college.

I went to Tulane in New Orleans. And so

we got married. We got engaged when I was 23, married at

24, which was very unusual for my group of

friends. And I was divorced at 31, so the

marriage lasted seven years. And fun fact is

that the year I got divorced, I was in 10

weddings because all of my friends were just getting married that

year, and I was Already getting divorced. And not only that, I had a one

year old and a three year old, so. Wow. Oh, that is super

interesting. How did that feel to be going through all those weddings as

an attendee? Were you like a bridesmaid and all the. I was

a bridesmaid. I think a couple of them. I think I was a maid of

honor. I was a bridesmaid in many of those

weddings. And in fact, one wedding that was two

months almost to the day after my divorce was final was in the

same church where I got married, same reception.

So my friend had actually reached out to me and said, you know, if you

don't want to be in the wedding party, I would totally understand.

And I said, no, this day is about you. Let's keep it that

way. And then I hooked up with a really cute

groomsman after having a few too many drinks. And that. That

made the whole thing more palatable, but it was hard. That's like a

movie that could be a. That could be a Hallmark movie, you

know, like about the wedding theme and hooking up from the wedding party and all

of those things. You're right, Amy. We should like co write that

and get rich immediately, right?

That is the goal. That is the goal. Okay, so I want to back up

for just a second and talk about, you know, talk about the marriage. Right.

Because we talk about marriage is ending, but it's not just the ending that

happened. A lot of the ideas that we

have and the concepts we have about marriage and you sort of touched on this

with talking about your cohort of friends was on a different

calendar, but we have ideas about what marriage and

family are supposed to look at. Look like based on what we

grow up with. Share a little bit is not your story. It's that I'm

asking you about. It's your parents. But share a little bit about what your parents

marriage looked like for you as a kid. Yeah, no, I

appreciate this question so much as a therapist and a person. And

I like to bring this to the table, even though my parents don't love it

so much. The treatment. Yeah, they don't. They're like, don't talk

about us and our messy stuff. But it's important because it

does inform what we look for, both consciously and

unconsciously. And we really only operate about 5%

out of the conscious anyway. So these things are important.

What's modeled in our family. And I have wonderful parents. I'm close

to both of them. My dad's a doctor, my mom's a lawyer. Both very

smart, very Outspoken. And my early childhood was

really genuinely pretty idyllic. Now, I don't know

what was going on in their marriage that I wasn't aware of during those

years, but I didn't have any siblings. We traveled

together. My parents read to me. We did arts and

crafts. I ran around the neighborhood with a pack of kids like most

Gen Xers. It was wonderful. And then

when I was about 11 years old, I now know

my father had an affair and there were a host of other issues going

on in the marriage. My parents had a baby. I later

learned, my brother, that this was kind of a last ditch effort to save the

marriage. That did not work. And they began to

argue. And this is why I mentioned how they're both very

outspoken. You know, I'm half Italian, half Irish.

I already said I'm a New Yorker. The conflict was really

loud and destructive. Their memory of it is

that it was a very brief blip. My memory of it was that

it was groundbreaking, traumatic, earth

shattering. It felt like it was my entire

middle school life that I lay in bed listening to my parents

argue with a stomachache. And what's interesting is that I

remember consciously, literally saying to myself, when

I grow up, I'm gonna have a perfect marriage. I'm gonna marry someone

that I never argue with. It's gonna be so

peaceful. And I picked. I mean, it's no

surprise then really, that I picked someone who really

never addressed any conflict at all. Came from a family that

was very genteel and polite. Nobody ever seemed upset.

And I really thought that was the answer. I didn't understand that

we have to be able to address conflict, but we have to do it constructively.

So this is. There's a lot in there. You've clearly had this conversation

before, but you're not the first person that I've met or

I've run across who draws the conclusion as

a child that a successful marriage is one, or a successful

friendship or a successful business partnership is defined by the

fact that there's no conflict. Yeah.

Right. You want to get along. And therefore just skips over all of the

lessons that are needed to handle conflict. Because

I have yet to find a partnership that doesn't involve at

least some negotiation.

Absolutely. Conflict is inevitable. And actually it's the

greatest source of emotional intimacy

and connection we have. If we know how to lean into it

constructively, if we know how to communicate and we're willing to share

our inner world. Now, I had to learn all of this by having a

failed marriage. I mean, because the problem is when you avoid conflict,

it creates distance, it leads to resentment, it

creates disconnection. Not to mention that it actually

also compromises our health to suppress our emotions.

But really, what I've learned as a therapist is the number one

factor that destroys relationships is emotional

disconnection. Not arguing, not having

differences, not even infidelity. It's

disconnection. So you're right. Most people. I hear it on

my couch every day, too. People like me saying, oh, my God, all I wanted

was to. To not argue. And of course, because of some factors with

attachment science, you know, it's a real tricky thing.

It's natural that we're scared of conflict, but we have to learn how to

address it constructively. So off topic from your

marriage and the divorce. How much of your decision

to pursue therapy, being a therapist as a

career, do you think was influenced by your middle school

years, listening to your parents fight? I think it was half

that. Half my own divorce. Okay, yeah,

Those two together. But you know what, actually, Amy, really, when I

think about it, I think the seeds for becoming a

therapist were there early because what would end up happening, And

I'm sure you hear this from so many people, too. I

was an only child during these years then. My brother was a baby.

And only children are often adultified, as we

say in therapy, or parentified. And children of divorce are

almost always adultified and parentified, especially in previous

generations. Right. When we didn't have all this attention on how to

divorce. Well, that, thank God, we have now. So I

think I was sort of my dad's unofficial therapist. He has

since apologized to me profusely because he would.

Inappropriately. It's. It's kind of astonishing to

me because I have the best dad, but he would tell me the details of

his life, ask me for advice. I mean, I was 12, 13 years

old then. My mom was very upset and hurt

and wounded. And so I would kind of manage and

moderate all of her emotions and try to regulate

mom so that she wasn't so distressed.

Or I would triangulate between them and say, well, I think

where Mom's coming from. And this is literally what

I am doing now for a living as a couple therapist.

That is. Yeah. No, that is really interesting. And I do think that

it's fair to shed a spotlight on the fact that in the 80s, which is,

I think, when this was happening. Happening, yes. There were not

online chat groups, and there was no Facebook or Reddit. It

was harder to do that. It was harder to find people. There was

an enormous stigma still about getting divorced for people that

age. My parents, I also. My parents divorced when I was very young

and it was. It, you know, I was. Today everybody is

familiar with it, but I remember it being unusual. You know, like, it was like

there weren't. Everybody wasn't. Didn't have parents. Oh, my gosh. And Amy,

I grew up in a part of New York. You know, New York is the

ultimate melting pot. But New York is also very, like,

cultural by neighborhood. So where I grew up was a town

outside of New York City that was all Irish Catholic. I went to all

girls Catholic school. I did not know one person who got a

divorce. I did not have one friend. Not one.

Yeah, so talk about something. And my parents, in our

family, there was no divorce ever. So the irony is that

my parents. Parents did not believe in divorce, did not want

a divorce. And this whole thing went on, started when I was 11, and they

didn't get divorced until I was in college. Oh, my goodness.

Yes. Because they had this belief of, you don't get divorced.

And I remember when they finally announced it to me, I said, oh, my God,

thank God. I've been telling you to get a flipping divorce

for eight years. Right? Like, you guys are not good together. And

now my parents are great friends. They get along great. I know it's been

a long time, but not everyone has that. So there was

no support group for my parents. No one was talking about the

psychological impact, really, on kids

or sending kids to therapy or, you know, don't

discuss your issues in front of the children. We had Kramer

vs Kramer, which was like a big movie in the 70s,

and War of the Roses. Oh, that is a great movie.

Yes. And my parents were a little like that at certain times,

so they stayed. So they were living in the same house until you. Until you

had moved out, you went. To New Orleans, separated on and off.

My dad at one point lived two doors down from the house.

I mean, it was all kinds of messy and dysfunctional.

However, I will say this one thing, and this goes a long way.

Not that they didn't make mistakes, but I always felt loved. Both

of them, I knew were there for me. I knew they had my

back. At times they were too distracted to be there for

me the way they should have. However, I always felt

loved and connected. And I think that goes a long, long

way. And because of this, I did my thesis in grad

school on, like, the damage to kids out of divorce. And really

the research shows, and you probably already know this, that if you divorce

well and you're you co parent well, your kids are going to turn

out just as well as if you stayed married. It's negative,

destructive conflict in marriage or in divorce that harms

children. So I one time. So my parents divorced when I

was young and probably like, and there were

complications and things like that. And I grew up with that same story that you're

talking about, which is that like, divorce is horrible. The kids suffer all these things.

And when I got to be an adult, I was like, that is not really

kind of what happened in my family. Like, the divorce was the start of

like safe spaces and healing for my family. And

I said that about 10 years ago. I mentioned that in like a

group on Facebook, which is a terrible place to actually put anything about

anything. And I, like, people were just like, no,

all divorces are destructive and bad for kids. And I was like, you know, I

just don't know if that's always. I mean, it can be, for sure,

absolutely. But there are so many times where

it's the conflict that is or the unhealthiness or

whatever. I mean, your story you touch on

sounds like there was not like one of those big catastrophes that

is so horrible, like substance use, you

know, mental health disorders, those things. Those are really

big problems in families that rip things apart. And it doesn't sound

like you had that. No, for sure. I mean, there was infidelity,

though. Infidelity, which is a big one. It's very

inflammatory. Emotions were very high. But you

know, even my own divorce experience, experience, I think there are ways

certainly that I suffered in the short term. Yes. But

had my parents stayed married, those ways would have been there.

And I personally believe, just zooming out a little, that this

idea that's still there even though we've come a long way from the 80s, but

that divorce hurts children and divorce is so bad. I think it's part

of the patriarchy and keeping women in something that

increasingly in many cases, doesn't serve women

well. I mean, when you look at divorce, more than 70% are

initiated by women. Divorce rates are steady,

except for the gray divorce segment at that

empty nest phase, which is growing because

marriage is now not just an economic

proposition. We really do want emotional intimacy.

We want friendship, we want equality, we want partnership.

You know, we no longer interested in being domestic indentured

servants. So, no, we are not. No. And not that we

ever were. But women used to not get divorced because they

didn't have a choice. And sadly, there are still many

women there. The finances are not such that they feel they

can leave, but this narrative of you can't leave

because of the kids. Now, I'm not saying if that's not your individual

truth that you're not, you don't want to see your kids 50% of

the time. And what's happening in the marriage doesn't feel so bad to you

that everybody's got to make their own cost benefit analysis. But

I just think there are still these prevailing narratives

that are designed to keep women small and complacent and

in order that don't serve us. I,

I tend to agree, and that is my opinion. All right, so I love

everything you said there today. You have a lot more experience

with life than you did on your wedding day. Thinking

back about that original decision you made to get married

at a young age, were you, do you think you were at

any way aware of the experience of your childhood and

how that was impacting that decision? I was aware of

it, but it was, and I thought I was choosing

wisely because of it, but it was actually

impacting me in some unconscious ways that

really were sabotaging me. Meaning, you know,

I, I sought out somebody who we try to

heal our old wounds in these new

relationships, but I sought somebody we end

up all of us. And I did the same thing seeking somebody who's

also familiar, but it feels like a better version.

So there were elements of my first husband and his family

dynamic that were familiar elements with like

infidelity. But then it seemed like the antidote

that they were so conflict avoidant and nobody was ever

upset. I thought that was better. And actually I picked

someone who really, and he'll even admit this today,

he's done a lot of work. My ex husband and his remarried, so I'm not

trying to slam him in any way, but he was very emotionally

disconnected. So I really sought out something

that I thought was the answer as a result of what I experienced

as a child, but was actually a new problem

that, you know, that was bigger in a way and harder.

So you use the word unconscious and I'm going to say, so this sounds to

me like you had a plan, you did some thinking, but as you learned more

and went through it, it turned out it wasn't a good plan. It wasn't the

right plan. So. But there's no way to know that. So the question is, was

it unconscious or was some of it? Because you just can't actually know

what something's going to be like until you get into it. I love that

question. I think it was both. I really think it was both. I think

that knowing what I know now, now I've been doing this work for 14 years.

I work with a tremendous volume of couples. I also do

discernment counseling, which is should I stay or should I go? Oh,

I didn't know that word. Discernment counsel. It's

own model of counseling because, you know, couple good couples

therapy is about let's repair and rebuild the bond, and

somebody's really leaning out. You have to address that question

first because both people have to be ready to roll up their sleeves and work.

You can't get into couples therapy. So discernment counseling is only one to

five sessions focused on are we going to work on it or are we going

to call the ball? So I think with what I

see now, you know, there are things that I would

have been aware of are going to be a huge problem

that I just didn't understand. Like, for example, looking at

the way when we'd argue the, the

behavioral patterns, the way when I expressed

emotions, the way I was or wasn't responded to,

you know, those were all signs of emotional disconnection and

emotional unavailability within that person

who also grew up in a family where they had their own issues and

he learned his own coping mechanisms. Now, we could have worked on those things

together, but it didn't go that way. And

I love that you asked this question, Amy, because it really

is, I think, the smug married people, as Bridget Jones once

said, people who are happy think they're,

they're so proud of themselves. A lot of it is

luck. You do not know what's coming in that gift

bag. You think you do, but much of the time, especially for

those of us who get married the first time younger in life,

you don't know what you don't know until years and life

have exposed certain realities. Sure.

Because part of the courtship

process, to learn use like a super old set

of words, is that we show each other

what we think they want to see and what we think are the best parts

of us. And that's, that's, that's not, that's not, you know, it could be

manipulative, sure. But it's also just what we do. It's like

you don't walk in for the job interview and say, hey, let me list for

you all the reasons I'm bad for this job. Yes,

exactly. Chris Rock, a million years ago

in the early 90s, said, you don't date someone, you

date their representative, like in that first year. And it

is so true. And it's not there. Like you

said, there are some people who maybe are manipulative, but most of us, it's just

the reality. It's exciting. You're getting to know

people. You're not bringing your most unflattering parts forward.

And also, in fairness, life hasn't pushed on you

yet and the relationship in those ways. But then you

get a house with someone, you live with them, you manage

stressful careers, you have children, you have all the unexpected, unexpected

crises life throws that you have the day in and day out of

that intimate level of living with somebody.

Everybody's difficult at that level in their own way. Oh, my gosh. I tell

people this all the time. Just not. I am not a therapist. You are a

therapist, but I tell people all the time it's hard to live with people. It

is just hard to live with people. Anyone, Anyone.

Anyone. You know, anyone. All right, so

I just said that I'm not a therapist. You are this

profession. You became a therapist after the divorce. Yes, and actually

my divorce. And to your point, probably my whole childhood

is what led me to become a couples therapist. But very

specifically because, and I think this is so important for listeners to

know, we went to a marriage counselor who had come highly recommended.

My first husband and I. This person was terrible. And I would

not say that lightly. Terrible to the point of. Some things were even

unethical. And I was young. I didn't know anything about psychology or

counseling. Today, I would report this person

to the board for some of the things that they did. So it's

just so important to. If you're going to go to couples therapy or

therapy, it'll find somebody who is experienced and trained

specifically in couples therapy. It's really important.

And you have to ask. You have to ask. You have to ask.

I went through that. Yes, I went through that. Not in couples. There.

Well, couples therapy. So my parents were divorced when I was young, so

my plan was that we were going to do premarital therapy and then we'd never

have any problems. And, you know, like, it was a

plan. So I was. I'm a step parent. My husband

has children, and we were working with a

therapist who had no experience with that construct, which

eventually came out in that, you know, he

was doing his best, but he wasn't offering me things.

Didn't have any experience and didn't come up until, like, I asked. And

he. He was like, I've never considered that. And I was like, oh,

this is like shopping for groceries in Home Depot.

You know exactly what A great metaphor. Yeah. And you

know, it's a problem in the field that more people need to be

aware of that you are, if you're a license since therapists, you're allowed to

work with couples, but you really shouldn't because

individual therapy and couples therapy are a completely different

process. So, you know, your therapist doesn't necessarily

have to have lived every life experience or worked with a

couple just like you. But you do want someone who's trained in

couples therapy and blended family issues.

I'm a stepmom too. If you, if somebody hasn't worked with that,

it's going to be very hard to know how to help you effectively. So I

saw that there was a problem that we need more

good couples counselors. It's not an easy job. And

I went to grad school. I mean, I had those little babies. I told you

I hadn't worked for a few years. I barely. I was so young. I

barely had a career trajectory. But what I had was in sales and

marketing. And I got a job immediately

out of the divorce back in that field and thought, this isn't for me. It's

not rewarding to me personally. I want to do something to help

people, and that's why I did this. That is,

that is a testament to your fortitude and your.

I don't even know what the right word is. But to go back to school

with young children is not easy to retool. It's a

long path in graduate school to get licensed and approved for

therapy. I mean, it's a really hard academic path. And I do

think it's a really tough job. It's like, you know, being involved with people.

So kudos to that. Okay, so.

So when. So when you guys. I think you answered this question already. So when

you guys, when your first marriage, when you realized that it wasn't going

the way you thought it would, did you reach out to. You

reached out to a therapist at the time? You guys did some couples therapy.

We didn't do it early enough. We did it at the brink

of divorce when everything was already a disaster.

And I didn't realize for all the issues

that were there, I really thought they were all my

husband, as many of us do. And I

didn't realize the conflict avoidant piece and

how much it had disconnected us. And I didn't realize that I had lost

my voice. Yeah, I wanted to communicate. I

thought I was communicating, but it was indirect

hinting, hoping my need kids would be magically

mind read, getting passive aggressive, doing what I call

Victim volcano syndrome, where I would take it and take it

and take it and then eventually blow. And, you know,

I was very much a product of what's still there, which is, I call

it Good Girl. Itis that we're still praised for being

small and selfless and seen as noble when we put

our needs last. So I was trying to be that. But all

the while I was avoiding sharing my own feelings

and needs, clearly. And resentment was building up. So

when we got to the point of counseling, I felt like I kind of

hated him. And it was, it was really.

I'll never know for sure if it was too late or

not, but it felt too late and the whole thing blew up

in spectacular fashion. So that's part of my mission is I don't want

to force everyone to stay together. That's not the right thing path. But I want

to help the people that really do. A lot of people, if it could be

better, they want it. I want to help those people make it better

100%. All right, so some of the things that you've described in this conversation

and also I think in the pitch are, you know,

being a people pleaser, being conflict avoidant, that

kind of thing. You. I'm not a therapist. You are. You can correct

me as the professional if what I say is off base.

One of the things I was thinking about when I was thinking about, did you

have a therapist? Is that sometimes that whole

people pleasing thing is directly related to the

word. I think the word we sometimes use is trauma, but maybe it's the wrong

word. But the things that come up in our childhood

and did anybody ever, did you realize, did anybody ever talk to

you about the fact that some of the ways you were showing up actually could

be trauma responses from what you would experience? No,

absolutely not. I never heard that or thought of that or. No,

no, no, no. So do you think that now, but now you draw a

conclusion? It's like, yes, what I saw when I was a kid showed up again

when I was an adult. Yeah, I think it's, I think

it's such a great point. I'm just thinking in real time. I think

it's a couple of these threads coming together. I think it's the

societal piece. Sure. Because we do and we do still

praise girls for being quiet and good. That hasn't stopped. I would

love to, I would love to say that the 20 year old girls are not

getting that message, but they are. And you know what? The Women in

our 50s, if you are pushing back, I mean, we have A term. Now,

we didn't used to have a Karen that if you actually make a

legitimate complaint, then you're going to be called a Karen.

If you're a woman who, you know, politics aside,

Hillary Clinton was constantly called A and A.

Right. Because she's like a strong, smart woman who

was being assertive. Even Taylor Swift, she

gets, she gets dragged across the coals for being great.

Just for being great. You're the best in the world. Must be something

wrong with you. So women are damned if they Right. And Taylor Swift,

by most accounts, I'm not even like a Swifty or anything. I don't know half

her songs. But by most accounts, she really

goes out of her way to, like, give back to her employees and society

and fans. She's crazy talented, but she's a woman

who's put herself out there, she's successful, so

that's part of it. And then also, and I think this is important

too, I mentioned it. It's the natural fear of

conflict that we all have in relationships. Men too, because

if we don't feel really adept with it and we don't know how to communicate

constructively, then it feels like a threat to the bond to bring up something

that, oh, I'll just get over it. But then third

is the trauma piece where, you know, in therapy circles we call

it fawning. Yep. Where, you know, it's

just anything to not rock the boat because I feel so scared

and terrified. And it can bring up younger parts of self in the

moment that for an adult, you can't really be

abandoned because you won't die. But a child, if a child

is abandoned, a child will die. So if bringing something

up feels like it's going to push somebody away or make

them judge you, where you lose the relationship, that can bring up a

younger self inside that just wants to fawn.

People, please appease. Oh, I said that. Or, or I

floated that idea indirectly. And you, you raised your

voice and left the room. I'm never going to bring that up again. That

doesn't go well. And then the, the sad part is, over

time we get the short term comfort, but over time we lose ourselves.

It's self abandon, self abandonment. All right, so. And to

draw, just to make sure that everybody in the audience is on the same page.

The fawn reference that you made is part of that list

of stress responses, which is fight, flight,

freeze. And then people don't mention it all the time. But the other one is

fawning, which is like a little baby deer, you

know, Trying to be cute and non threatening so that you

don't raise conflict. All right, so very good. I could tell it's a

survival strategy. Yeah. And I like to, when I talk

to my friends, because I'm not a therapist, but when I talk to my friends

and people I'm having conversations with, I do always say, I'm like, you know, don't

sell yourself short here. When you, when you find out that you did this because

you developed these coping mechanisms because they were needed at

some point or another and now you're in a spot to like grow up

and you know, put on your big girl panties and learn some new skills.

Yes. And this is the whole process that I teach in my

book that is how to not let those

survival responses run the show anymore because it's so

natural. But we, we as mature adults, we

can come from that wise self in communication and ground

ourselves and still get our point across. So that is a

perfect thing. We're going to talk about your book in a second. I have one

final question and I could talk to you all day, but I said, who did

you tell first when you decided that you want to divorce your first husband? Who

did you tell and how was the idea received by your parents who

had this Catholic family and all of the things. So

the first person I told was this horrible marriage counselor.

Right. And then after that it was my parents. I did go right

to my parents and you know, they, at that

point, I have to say they were very supportive. My mom was

worried for me and it turned out in ways that I should have been more

tuned into myself. She was, was like, you don't really have a career, you have

young babies. I, my parents lived in New York. I was here by

myself. I got kind of a

storyline floated in our friend group that wasn't

totally fair to me in my opinion. And

everybody kind of thought I was the one who chose the divorce. So everyone

thought I was the bad guy. This is another place where I think women are

really vilified, right. To be a woman and to

leave your husband when you have a one year old and a three year old.

Society doesn't like that. Yeah,

very good reasons that were very painful and

private that I chose not to share out of respect for my

ex husband's career. But of course nobody knew that or cared about

it. So I really lost most of my friends too. So it

was received well by my parents, but definitely not by our

social circle. I had one friend, laughingly, it's such a

Real Housewives moment. This is 20 years ago, but sobbing

to me when I told her about my divorce because I was gonna mess up

the rental in Hilton Head. Oh, well, that

doesn't actually surprise me. I'm old enough to have seen my fair share of those

stories. And there is a very real social cost

of decoupling from a relationship. It's the friend group,

it's the schools, it's the after school activity. I've

talked to hundreds of women who are very happy to be divorced.

I don't know that I've ever talked to anybody who enjoyed the process

of detangling in the relationship. It is a rough process,

unfortunately. All right, so we have mentioned that you're a

therapist for everybody who's listening. You have a couple of

podcasts. One is called the Insights from the Real Talk

for Women in Midlife. And there's another one, and you're on the

radio in Orlando. Very, very cool. And notably

for right now, very timely. You've written a

book that is coming out the week that this show

releases. The book is called the Cost of

Quiet how to have the Hard Conversations that Create

Secure, Lasting Love. All right, is there anything

that I missed in that wrap up of the things that you've got going on?

No. I mean, except that I also did a TEDx talk called Secret

of a Couples Therapist. So. And that's on. I think

listeners would get a lot out of that and there's a lot of what we

talked about today. And then I go into some more depth on some of these

issues. And thanks so much for mentioning my book. It's just

coming out now, and I really, it was

inspired to give women, and women in particular, it's

for everyone, but I wrote it for women. And I say that in the book

because I'm a woman. In my experience, I give a very

actionable solution, including, like scripts

that's kind of like emotional Mad Libs. So you put your own

stuff. It's your own truth. But I really help you learn

how to communicate for your feelings and needs,

regardless of how your partner responds. And that's my

mission in life, is to help people with that. I love

that. I absolutely love it. All right, I'll put

the all of the links to the podcast, the book, and

the TEDx talk are in the show notes on all the audio platforms and on

YouTube for everybody in the audience. The easiest way, in my opinion, as

the host, to get all of these links is to be subscribed to the Imperfect

Adulting email newsletter, which I call the Village. And then

the Links are in there, and you just click on them, and it's like magic.

You don't have to hunt them up. So that's my opinion. Everybody's invited.

Colette, are you ready for my final three random questions? I am, and I

can't wait. I love that you're so excited about this. Some people

get nervous, and they're just ridiculous questions. All right, so question number one.

If I came into your house and opened your refrigerator today, which would be

absolutely a very strange thing to do, but let's go with it. I think it

makes a funny question. What would I find in your fridge today?

You would find a bunch of stuff that my husband bought at the grocery

store and cooked. I'm an empty fridge girl. I'm

gonna grab something on the go. But my husband is so good. He does all

the grocery shopping and all the cooking. So you find, like,

macaroni that's, like, not real pasta. It's like, some

healthy, grainy stuff. You know,

a bottle of champagne that hasn't been opened yet

and probably some cheese and butter and whatever my

husband's eating. I'm on the go. You're on the go. All right. I love that.

Okay, if you were number two, if you were going to redecorate a room in

your house, what room would you choose, and what furniture store do you think

would be your first stop for buying new furniture?

Oh, my gosh, I would love to do that. So I have a tiny house.

I would redecorate the front room, which is my home office,

and it's open. I actually like how it looks, but

I would love to, like, freshen it up. I don't know the

store because I know nothing about designing, but I would want a

very clean, like, very South Florida vibe. Just, like, wood

and plants and, like, everything white and light and

maybe something really blue, like the ocean for artwork

on the wall. Just really clean aesthetic.

That coastal chic. That makes so much sense. Yes.

That's what I would want. That is. That is a vibe that looks. We

all have it. One of the reasons is because everything gets so bleached in Florida,

so it's like you're better off just starting with white furniture. And I love it.

Mine is gray and yellow, and it's nice, but I would rather the

coastal chic vibe. Very cool. All right, you are an author and

a podcaster and a broadcaster yourself. Do you want to share with

us either a podcast or a book that isn't your book? Because we already talked

about your book that you enjoy that you think somebody in

the audience might also like. All right, I'm gonna go with what came

right to my mind, an oldie but goodie. One of my favorites and

one of the only books I've ever reread multiple times

is Feel the Fear and Do It Anyway by Susan

Jeffries. She's no longer with us.

For anybody that's ever wanted to go for something and

felt fear, which is natural. Anybody who's dealt with

anxiety but is like a super smart, powerful person at

the same time, this is your book. Love that. I'd heard that

phrase so many times, I don't think I knew that there was a book to

go with it. That is fantastic. That's it. Colette Fehr, thank you

so much for being a wonderful guest today on the show. Thanks so much for

having me. And thanks to you all for listening.