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How to burnout with a bang: Arifa Nasim
Episode 822nd April 2024 • Force of Nature • OneFinePlay
00:00:00 00:38:00

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Why has burnout culture been normalised in activism and how can we change it?

Arifa Nasim founded Educate2Eradicate, a non-profit organisation committed to spreading knowledge to prevent the hundreds of thousands of individuals at risk from experiencing forced marriage, genital mutilation and honour-based abuse. Arifa has educated more than 5,000 individuals and plans to grow Educate2Eradicate into a holistic program, training larger organisations and offering counseling and legal advice to victims. Arifa was an official UK delegate to the Sustainable Development Goals Summit.

In the penultimate episode of season 3, Confessions of a Climate Activist, Clover sits down with Arifa Nasim to explore why burnout culture has become normalised within activism and what we can do to actively change it. Finally, Arifa spills her climate confession!

Content Warning: This episode contains conversations about female genital mutilation, suicide and forced marriage. So please listen with care.

“There is a reason I’m much happier now; there is time for spiritual rest, and creative rest and physical rest. Now that I know better, I don’t know that I’d ever go back” -Arifa Nasim

Follow Arifa:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/arifa_nasim/

LinkedIn: https://uk.linkedin.com/in/arifa-nasim-44a764b3

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Transcripts

Clover Hogan:

Hi my name’s Clover and you’re listening to the Force of Nature podcast. This season, we’re diving into “Confessions of a Climate Activist”. What comes to mind when you picture an activist? Is it a person glued to the road? Someone with a reusable coffee cup? Maybe, a teenager holding a microphone? Whatever it is, I want you to let it go — because I’m about to invite you behind the scenes. You’re going to hear from activists on the stuff that doesn’t get talked about. Burnout; getting cancelled; the ethical compromises of making money; imposter syndrome, and even what it’s like to alienate friends and family. See this as your how-to guide when understanding and navigating the nuances of activism and barriers to action in the climate space. Over the season, we hope to find some answers: namely, what activism can look like when it's more open, honest and human. Make sure to stick around to the end of each episode when our guests spill their climate confessions. After all, we don't need a hundred perfect activists - but millions of imperfect ones.

Clover Hogan:

re was a particular moment in:

Community member 1:

I'm a young mother. I've got a daughter who's almost three. One of the big feelings I've been having with this is a sense that this is not meant for people like me because I'm supposed to be working all hours, you know, nonstop, 24 hour a day kind of work, where you barely sleep, right? And this is all you do if you're going to be doing a startup. But I can't do that and be an engaged mother and be there for my daughter the way she needs me. I want to be able to carve that path because I want my daughter to know that if she grows up and has her own kids, that doesn't mean her aspirations need to stop.

Community member 2:

It can be especially difficult when you're trying so hard and yet you don't see immediate results. Though obviously immediate results are very hard to come by in the first place. Personally, that has led to quite a lot of burnout as you're putting all of your efforts into this cause you care so much about.

Community member 3:

I've definitely experienced burnout in the activist space, especially being a young person. Having to work two jobs, study, have my own hobbies, as well as show up in the activist space really means that I'm not able to fully commit myself to my activism or my own wellbeing. I find it really difficult to ensure that I'm prioritising my own mental health and seeing friends, seeing family and switching off from my activism whilst also making sure I show up in the best way possible to try and fight for this just future. I think until we switch the narrative that individual actions should solve the climate crisis people as we try and navigate our own personal lives and separation from our activism.

Clover Hogan:

I’m unsurprised to hear from these other young people struggling to juggle work, life, and their personal wellbeing. When we polled our community, 97% told us they had experienced burnout because of their activism. I’m now going to chat to Arifa Nasim, a very dear friend and someone who has spoken openly about leaving activism because of burnout. Before I let Ari introduce herself, I’ll share a content warning that this conversation includes discussions of FGM, suicide and forced marriage. So, please listen with care.

Arifa Nasim:

So my name is Arif Nasim and I, probably from about the age of 14, was active on the issues of child marriage, female genital mutilation and on the based violence. Those three things together are either called traditional harmful practices or they're called honor-based violence or honor-based violences. The nonprofit that I used to work out was called Educate to Eradicate. So we focused on safeguarding with teachers, police officers, doctors, midwives, frontline professionals that would have encountered instances of abuse or even would be in a position to prevent those. those abuses from happening had they been able to, if they were able to spot those signs.

Clover Hogan:

And how would you describe that experience of starting your own non-profit?

Arifa Nasim:

Did not know what I was doing at all. It was very much you take the next step and you hope that the step in front of you will appear because I felt like I was quite blind in most places. I didn't really know what I was doing. But equally, I felt... quite supported. It almost felt like there was a bit of a safety net underneath me in the sense that I come from a close-knit community. I live in Walthamstow in the east end of London. So not only is there a large immigrant or migrant community here, there's also a sense of togetherness in the fact that we are one community. And so I knew that if I needed anything, I would only have to reach out to a counselor or a friend or somebody who knew somebody else and I would be able to source the things that I needed. So it was a lot of kind of... piecemeal putting together a mosaic almost, but it was possible, I'd say. Challenging, but possible.

Clover Hogan:

And you mentioned that you have since stepped away from the organization. What led to that moment?

Arifa Nasim:

symposium and they had about:

Clover Hogan:

Well, yeah, I guess leading on from that, you know, it definitely relate to the feeling of imposter syndrome and that. That moment that I think a lot of the guests of this season have spoken to when you're kind of like suddenly thrust into the spotlight and all of the like fears and insecurities and everything that bubbled to the surface with that. But I'd love to hear what else was going on in the background for you because it sounds like it was incredibly overwhelming.

Arifa Nasim:

It was and I think it was because I was trying to balance both university and doing full-time degree with... sort of full-time running the organization and probably about a million other things at the same time. And no, it was not part of my vocabulary for a very long time. And I think I got back from Malaysia. And interestingly, the year that I went to Malaysia was also the year of my year abroad. So I lived in Iran for about four months, had gone to Malaysia. So I felt like I'd done my university thing, had the summer off, did the Malaysian thing. came back and was then trying to run parallel tracks because university doesn't get easier. As you go through the years, it actually gets harder and harder and you've got to, you're building on your skills. And then with Educate to Educate, it was like, right, well, we're building on this as well. So when you're working on both fronts, the foundation of one or the other, I feel like is going to be a bit unstable. You can't give 100% when you only have 100 to both things. So I struggled immensely and then the pandemic came. And in some senses, the pandemic was a gift to me because the schools shut down, the hospitals were overwhelmed. It was the people that I would normally have been engaging with for this type of work, everything was in chaos. And so I was almost able to blend into that chaos and step back and think, actually, am I making the right choices? Because whilst I was running on one track, sort of all the way to the end of the line with educate, eradicate. There was university, there was my family and my home life with my sister and my mother. They were my friends. And just what I would classify as learning how to adult, which is I think something we do in our early 20s, even if you have lived away from university, the concept of self-regulating, not just your emotions, but things like meal planning and laundry and making sure you've got routines and all of those things. suddenly were not as important as getting the next funding application in or the next tax return in. And so when it came to a choice between the two, is it do I get an early night or do I go out for dinner with my mates? Or do I actually finish this presentation that's due tomorrow? We know which one was consistently being picked. And so that consistent self-betrayal or not thinking or not valuing myself as an individual that needed to be whole in order to do those things is kind of what... allowed for it to fall apart in the end.

Clover Hogan:

Yeah, I definitely hear that, trying to spin all of the plates at the same time and just kind of waiting for one of them to drop. And I feel like, at least in my experience, oftentimes it's not until you are on the verge of tears or just actively breaking down in public. That's my favourite. signal that I'm really exhausted. It's just like no emotional regulation. Oh my gosh, and then you suddenly look and you're like, oh, I haven't been eating consistently. I haven't spoken to my family in two weeks. I haven't done all of these things. I guess, what was it like for you to come to that realization that you did need to take a step back and you did need to wind your organization down?

Arifa Nasim:

I likened it to And this might have been dramatic for some other people, but I likened it to giving away my firstborn because I had invested so much time and love and energy into E2E that we all referred to it as my baby, even amongst my family and friends, they were like, this is your baby. And so to come to terms with trying to give that up, there was one significant moment. It's funny you mentioned public meltdowns. I remember walking into a kebab shop with a couple of friends of mine and the guy just asked me a really simple question. He said to me, do you want salad in your wrap or not? And I froze. I just, I froze at being asked if I wanted salad or not. And I just had a meltdown, I started crying, literally exited the shop, my friend came with me and we just had like a five minute meltdown on the main high road street in, in Walthamstow. When I look back, it was really embarrassing but it was also a really crucial, purposeful point because afterwards I remember thinking to myself, I remember putting... as a parallel, an image of myself on stage in Malaysia and me crying on the street and things weren't adding up. I was like, how can I be the same person? And I feel like maybe I thought that because I was not consistently acting in one particular way, that there was some fault or there was something wrong, it didn't necessarily put it together that actually I needed to let one thing go in order for a lot of things to become more regulated, like being able to eat on time. or being able to take care of myself.

Clover Hogan:

No, it feels too close to home because I had this moment like a month ago where I was feeling so tired. I was in a coffee shop and similarly, like I get the same thing every time. I get an oat milk cappuccino and I couldn't remember my own coffee order. And I was like, oh, this is not it. This is not good. But I think it's like. I do think it's really important to have these conversations as well because I know in those moments what can be really hard is the feeling of isolation and alienation. Particularly when you have this kind of image of what other activists look like and when on social media we're just posting the videos of us killing it on stage or sounding really articulate. You're not posting the videos of you sobbing in the bathroom or just having a meltdown. I feel like it's really important to talk about this side of activism which is... so messy and which does like, you know, in many ways, like, kind of enable this mentality of like self-sacrifice and will actually know I don't need to care for myself or I don't need to prioritize my family or friends because like actually the cause is most important. I think looking back on your experience, would you define like what you're going through as burnout?

Arifa Nasim:

Absolutely. And I would never have used that term at the time. I wouldn't have recognised the symptoms of what I was experiencing and put the burnout label on it. And I was so grateful to have had a friend there with me in that moment because it was that gentle encouragement where I realised, and this was the most interesting thing, is that she wasn't friends with me because of what I did. She was friends with me because of who I am, like the fact that we go for coffees and that we have conversations and long walks. that we had a friendship that was separate to my work. And so the fusing of the identity, I think this happens when you're young and you start being active on an issue. And interestingly, when I was younger, I never would have called myself an activist. I don't even think I knew the term activist or activism. It purely began from something that had hurt my heart and I wanted to change it. And so for me, I would never have used the larger terms that we associate with activism. I would have always said, I'm working on child marriage or I want to end child marriage or do you know what I mean? It was very lazy focused and specific. And so it almost became for me, in my head, I thought everybody knows me as this person, so the person that works on child marriage or the person that does this. And so because it became a part of my identity and I grew up with it, sort of those crucial years between 14 and maybe 20, it became so fused with the my understanding of my identity, that the concept of giving it up actually felt like I was losing a part of myself. It was like, if I'm not Arifa from E2E, then who am I? And I think the moment I was able to be vulnerable was when I actually decided that I was going to announce to everybody that I was leaving or that I was stepping back because that was the hardest thing. It wasn't possibly not doing the work anymore because I've reached a point where I physically wasn't able to do the work anymore. It was actually admitting to everybody else and ripping that bandaid off. And I almost felt that once I'd put that confession out there, that they could no longer expect that version of me anymore. And so I felt liberated. So I did an Instagram sort of story saying, thank you so much for the support that you've given me, because at the end of the day, I wouldn't have been able to do any of it without other people supporting me. So I even almost felt like I was letting them down or that their support. would almost be in vain because this wasn't something that I was continuing. So I, I came onto Instagram and I said, thank you all so much. All of the support and the love and the money that you've given me over the years in donations, et cetera. I valued it all, but unfortunately I've now got to take a step back. And once I'd, it was a tearful kind of emotional goodbye to what I was doing. And once I'd ripped that bandaid off, the weight lifted. So it was actually more. the expectation of what I felt people expected from me as opposed to a guilt of me not continually doing work because I knew I wasn't able to at that point.

Clover Hogan:

Yeah, oh my gosh, everything you're saying is speaking to my soul. I love what you said that friend was like, I'm not your friend because of what you do, I'm your friend because of who you are. And that is such a powerful and gentle reminder. But I'd love to hear it now with like... you know, some more time to look back and reflect on that period. How have things been since you hit that kind of like moment of rock bottom?

Arifa Nasim:

It feels like learning to walk again, if that makes sense, because I think I was running on autopilot for such a long time, having this perception and trying to uphold it as well and continually strengthening it. to giving it up and thinking, I can do what I want now. I can kind of explore and challenge ideas and perceptions and work out what it is that I really want to do, things that I actually enjoy. Once I put it to the side, the first few requests I had to speak on particular issues, I completely like said, no, I'm not doing it. Because I think there was a fear that you open that door and the flood gate kind of, you won't be able to say no going forward.

Clover Hogan:

You mentioned what it was like to almost learn to walk again. I'd love to pick up there and just hear more about how you've been navigating things ever since.

Arifa Nasim: So I call it learning to walk again because my personal experience was that all of my interactions were seen through a particular lens previously and a particular filter. A lot of the times, because we had very little money as an organization, and were very community based. It was, right, how can this new piece of information potentially help what I'm doing? Or how can that connection or who I've just met potentially aid XYZ? Which is a bit of a dangerous way to start thinking of people when you meet them as kind of resources and tools for the greater good. I think it leads down a very dangerous road. And so when I was able to take that lens off, I began to just meet people and work out, like you? Would I want to go for a coffee with you and actually spend time with you? And also just picking up things that I'd abandoned along the way for lack of time and then almost circling back to them. So I used to love sewing and beading and making little crafty things and baking and all of these wonderful things that you can do with your hands to switch your brain off and to just give you some mindfulness, different forms of rest really. I think they call it creative rest. where it's a hobby but you're not monetizing it or anything like that. You're doing it just to chill out. So looking back, I think to myself, now that I do these things regularly, how did I ever survive like back-to-back meetings where I had days scheduled from 8 a.m. until 8 p.m. and I'd look back on my schedule and I hadn't factored in a time for lunch. It was just meeting to meeting and then coffees in between and I'd get to the end of a day where I hadn't. eaten probably more than a banana and about five cups of coffee. So I look back on that and I now think, that's unreal. How did I survive that whole period of time? When I look back on them now, I think I compare my life and types of things that I do now and what I used to do back then. And there is a reason I'm much happier now. It's because there is time for spiritual rest and creative rest. and physical rest as well, like actually getting seven hours of sleep every night, well most nights. Now that I know better, I don't know if I'd ever go back.

Clover Hogan:

Have you seen a version of activism that is truly, from your perspective, sustainable?

Arifa Nasim:

I don't know if I've seen it or if I could even imagine what it would look like. Maybe I'm wrong, but I almost feel like... the nature of the beast, so to speak, is that you have those peaks and troughs. It's because you care so much and we need individuals who care, who genuinely care to put the work in, that unless those individuals are the type of people that will give their 100%, that care doesn't actually materialize into effective change. you're recycling, etc. You're not making an impact, right? And I'm not saying that you don't care if you don't. I mean, some would some could argue you don't care if you don't recycle. That's a whole other discussion. What I mean is that to dedicate and commit your life to doing this sort of full time, there not only has to be that fuel in your belly, that kind of anger and the injustice. I'm actually aping a Tony Benn quote moment, but he says that you've got to have two flames burning in the human heart, the flame of anger against injustice in the world and the flame of hope that we can actually build a better, brighter tomorrow together. And I think if you've got those flames, the ones in whom those flames burn the brightest are the ones that you would almost say are the ones that they burn out. And the people that I find have the healthiest habits are probably the ones that I would say are the most sustainable activists. in some sense. So there are a few of our friends that we know that perhaps don't drink coffee and don't have any stimulants. But is their form of activism the most sustainable simply because they have healthier habits or they might not drink coffee, but conference season starts and they're on planes backwards and forwards from New York to LA like non-stop. Who knows, right? So I find it difficult to try and quantify sustainability. I think it's going to look different for everybody.

Clover Hogan:

I'd love to hear your thoughts on, for young people who want to engage in this work and who want to engage in activism, what are some of the things that we should be lobbying for to better safeguard, to try and challenge the normalisation of self-sacrifice, to talk about burnout? Because I think there are some really tangible things like moving away from unpaid labour is a really obvious one. If you're constantly hustling for money and fundraising. If we could actually move to a model where young activists are paid for their work sustainably, I think that would take a huge existential pressure off. Do you have any other thoughts on some of the things that we could lobby for to make this more sustainable?

Arifa Nasim:

You can burn bright, but you can also burn bright for a long time and not get burnt by that experience and have to step out of it. the effort more than the outcome, I think we'll create better activists or rather we will create an environment where better activists can flourish and be nurtured. Because if the outcome is you need to have set up a charity by 18 to qualify as a young activist or you need to have gone to this summit in this country or do this or do that, or be under 30 under 30 on Forbes or whatever, when you have these artificial milestones that you're trying to hit. it does become more about the accolades and less about the work. Whereas if we're praising the effort and the thought that's gone into it, which is, I'm really upset this thing has happened in our world or that this is happening. And I know that with my resources, I can do something about it. And when we say resources, I think the most important thing to remember is also you are a resource because your individual mosaic of skills and talents and knowledge and connections and networks is unique to you. Nobody has that combination or that package. And in and amongst those things, there are gonna be talents and things that you can contribute to whichever course you're looking at that nobody else can. So you in and of yourself, I would say to young people, are the magic ingredient, right? All you've got to do is take that first step forward. But equally, you don't have to take all the steps. You're not. it's a marathon, right? It's not a sprint. So you can take a step today and then maybe come back to the whole issue in three years time and say, right, I feel like I'm now able to do a little bit more on this or I know a bit more about this. And then circle back to it in five years time, be like, actually, I've been doing this now for three years, this one particular habit, I can now do more. So allowing it to be a journey, a long journey, as opposed to it's more impressive if we get this done under the age of 22 because people sit up and listen because I'm a young person. That really got me, I think. I felt like people were only listening to what I had to say because I was so young while doing it and they found it really impressive. And I felt like I had this really short window of time that if I threw everything into my work, it would have a bigger impact than if I was to do this work when I was older. That was a fallacy. That was something I constructed in my head.

Clover Hogan:

Given everything we've spoken about, I'd love to hear if you know the benefit of experience and being in a much more grounded kind of place, what is one thing you might tell your younger self looking back on the journey that you've taken to date?

Arifa Nasim:

That's tough. I just turned 26 and if I go back 10 years, I was 16 when I put my first event together. So it was exactly a decade ago, come July 2nd, that this first charity dinner, which was a combination of the activism and wanting to change things and bringing the community together, receiving the accolade, being on stage, it almost created the blueprint or the foundation for the following, I don't know, eight years or so. And if I could speak to her then. I would say to her, don't lose sight of the goal because the goal is, and the goal was always to make sure that you could, going back to that book and the reason that I actually started the activism, it was because these stories broke my heart and I thought to myself it could have been me, right? I almost felt lucky and that I'd been saved because the cultures I come from, these practices are heavily kind of embedded. in our cultures. So I remember feeling the feeling of being saved and wanting to save other people. And when I look back on it now, there was one particular case I was personally involved in and I know that the woman was able to escape. And so even that one person, I feel like that's the job well done, right? Knowing that you've saved or that you've helped save one person over the course of 10 years, that's enough. So if I was to speak to her at 16, I would remind her, I'd say that even if it is one person, you've done your job, you don't have to feel guilty because putting that one person aside, the information that you're giving out to other people, you don't know how they've used it and what good it's gone on to do later on because it's intangible and it's unquantifiable. So that was always the difficult thing for me because for yourself, if you're working towards a goal, you want to see it achieve, whether it's a bill or et cetera. us the work was slightly different because of course we were lobbying, we were working on sort of decision making as well, but it was a lot more grassroots. It was actually speaking to students and teachers and hoping that something you say to them, or the information you give them will actually help them to protect the next potential victim. So I would say to her, even one person is enough and don't ever lose sight of the fact that your family and your friends love you for who you are. not for what you're doing or not for what you're achieving. Achievement is not linked to your intrinsic worth.

Clover Hogan:

I want to listen back to that every day. Maybe I'll just start calling you every morning.

Arifa Nasim:

You should.

Clover Hogan:

Remember that thing you said? Oh, I love that. That's so beautiful. It's so sweet. My mum, she started doing this thing when I tell her about different successes and things. And like, hey, I just been invited to do this thing or like, for some reason, she just won this grant. She's like, oh, I'm so happy for you. Not that my, like how proud of you I am is directly related to your successes, like she's constantly caveating because she's aware that this is an issue for me. But that is so beautiful and such a grounding reminder that like even if you change one person's life in a big or a small way, like that is enough. Like you are enough in your activism. I'm going to be holding on to that. The final question I want to ask you today, it's a little bit of a silly one, but in the interest of inviting everyone to lean into imperfect activism and wear their hearts on their sleeves and be very honest, we're inviting people to share their climate confessions. As you can imagine, in the recording of the show, I've had to come up with so many confessions, which has been like surprisingly easy because I'm very inconsistent. But I'm going to share a confession and then if you'd like to, you can share one as well. So we mentioned coffee drinking. I did learn a few years ago that coffee is one of the most water consumptive crops on the planet. And I believe a standard cup of coffee requires about 130 liters of water to make. So my climate confession is that I... Without the excuse of ignorance, drink my body weight in coffee every single day. So that's my climate confession. But how about you, Ari? Confession.

Arifa Nasim:

We only have one car in the household and I don't drive. Now I say I don't drive because if I was to learn to drive, I would drive everywhere and it would be really unsustainable, etc. I had a couple of bikes, but probably my biggest crime is that I will get a cab. Right, I might only be, and I will be running late, but I knew that I was going to run late. But what I do is I factor in the fact that if I go by public transport, it will take this much time. But really, I've got an extra 15 minutes in bed because I could always get a cab. And I always take the extra 15 minutes in bed. So I always end up taking the cab. So yeah, transport.

Clover Hogan:

Hey, that's self care, you know.

Arifa Nasim:

I like that. I'm taking that. I'm stealing that.

Clover Hogan:

Honestly, I feel like this whole show is like me validating other people in their climate confession so that I personally feel less guilty about doing the exact same thing.

Arifa Nasim:

Go off, Sis. I could have coffee in an IV drip and I still wouldn't be properly functioning in the morning so you and I are both in the same boat.

Clover Hogan:

I'm an anxious girly so the only thing that stops me is that I will probably have a meltdown if I tip the balance out of whack, you know, if I have too many cups. No, I'm so grateful for you, Ari, and I'm so grateful for this conversation. It has been incredibly nourishing.

Clover Hogan:

I’m so grateful to Ari for her work, her legacy, and also to know that she is emotionally and spiritually in a much better place now than she was in the throes of her activism. I also loved this framing of measuring the efforts of our work, over the outcomes — when we hold ourselves to the outcomes of our actions, when we cling on to those expectations of the impact we can or should make, we set ourselves up to fail. It was maybe a little surprising to hear Ari’s take that there’s no such thing as sustainable activism… but perhaps that reframe actually takes the pressure off — to not hold ourselves to some ideal, and instead acknowledge that because we care so deeply, because we pour our heart and souls into our work, it’s kind of inevitable that our energy levels will rise and fall. The important thing then is to build a foundation to our activism that supports us, so that when we do fall, we fall softly. When we asked our community how they managed their burnout they spoke to the importance of mindfulness, seeking advice from their fellow activists, disconnecting from social media and spending time in nature. They also talked about finding strong support systems through friends. On this point, I am so grateful to the community around me and the now thousand plus young people who make up the Force of Nature community. It’s these people who have supported me when I feel most depleted or disillusioned. Those feelings are strongest when I think about the enormity of the challenge at hand; when I reflect on the systems and structures we must change to solve the climate crisis. So, for our final episode, I want to unpack how we do just that, how do we inspire change at the highest levels. To help me I’m inviting two incredible people onto the show, Luisa Neubauer, a German climate activist who took her own government to court, and Christiana Figueres, former secretary general of the UNFCCC, the architect of the Paris Agreement and all round badass. In the meantime, if you enjoyed today’s episode and are thirsty for more Force of Nature content you might want to check out episode four from season 2, where we dive into eco-anxiety and eco-feminism through the lens of the climate crisis and its impact on women and girls. When you’ve listened, be sure to drop us a comment and let us know what you think.

Clover Hogan:

How did today's episode make you feel? Let us know by heading over to Force of Nature's instagram, @forceofnature.xyz, and dropping us a comment. If you’re between the ages of 16 and 35, you can join Force of Nature’s growing online community and access our free programmes and trainings, which help you develop the skills to take action. You can also find resources on our website.If you haven't already subscribed to the podcast... well, you know what to do. This show was brought to you by Force of Nature and OneFinePlay. From OneFinePlay, Kasra Firouzyar is the editor and producer. Connor Foley is the producer and researcher. From Force of Nature, I’m your host, Clover Hogan, and this season would not be possible without Meg Stillwell and Isabel Flynn.

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