Christine speaks with musician and immersive sound healer & producer Nathan Getzin about the journey into vulnerability he undertook for the sake of his relationship, which required laying down the armor and weapons of masculinity he had been taught to carry.

The last phase of THJ, “The Return” is not just about personal growth, but also about bringing our newfound wisdom and gifts back into the community. Nathan shares about how his own inner exploration impacted the work he does today. Alongside Christine they take on big topics such as what authenticity means; the relationship between vulnerability and discomfort; unconscious gaslighting; an invitation to hearing our own voice; and the beauty that comes with accepting ourselves completely. Special surprise at the end!

Resources

• Wakes – Nathan & Ada’s music and healing practice
• The Breeze at Dawn – poem by Rumi
• On Being, with Krista Tippett

I'm Christine Raine.

Welcome to the Heroine's Journey podcast, where we understand our personal stories of change with insight, compassion, and inspiration.

The fourth phase of the heroine's journey is characterized by the return.

We've been to the depth of our souls and back.

We've experienced ruptured disillusion, death, healing initiation, and now our precious, newly born self is ready to return to the world.

Our passage home is powered both by the strength we have found in ourselves from traversing what lies behind us, and also by the call we feel to return to community, to interdependence and inter-being, so that we can share the gifts of our journey.

In some way, we're healed, not because anything has been undone or reversed, but because we have found in the integration of our experience, the possibility of moving forward without denying what is, of moving forward with acceptance.

Rich and inner wisdom we return to offer into the collective fire the inner light we now carry.

Not that it might change the world, but that together we all might see further into the darkness.

To the world we once thought we knew, we bring new ways of knowing, seeing, being.

And doing, and that my friends is worthy of celebration.

My incredible Guest for today is a man that I admire deeply and that I've had the privilege to witness in various moments of his life.

His name is Nathan Getzin.

About to change to Nathan Ketchie.

Ooh, I love.

And he's the co-founder of Wakes with his partner Ada Ketchie.

They create immersive musical experiences that are so beautiful, and that guide participants on this transformative journey into the wilderness of their own inner worlds.

Through this work, they've developed the Wakes method, a methodology for transformation through the practice of inner exploration,

Nathan has actually used music from a very young age to process, heal and explore his own life.

From childhood into his twenties, church offered him a space to not only explore and cultivate his budding musical talent, but also to develop an intimate understanding of music's power to connect us to our emotions, shift our thoughts, and connect us to faith and trust in ourselves and life.

Since then, the influence of Eastern philosophy and the practice of meditation has led him on a mission to explore, codify, and teach about the powerful intersection of mindfulness and music to help people tend their hurts and wounds.

I love that.

And to tap into their unrealized potential.

I met Nathan and Ada together in the living room of a very close friend that we both share, and it was one of these weird, magical moments of multi-directional love at first sight.

Hmm.

there was something about.

Just sharing around a table, having drinks, having food, something about the way they viewed life, the way they expressed themselves, the way they showed such care and and love in the way they spoke, in the way they referred to others and past experiences and present experience that just got me completely hooked from minute two.

And it's just been so beautiful to experience you as a musician, uh, to witness the love that you and Ada have for each other and this incredible creation that you've put out into the world.

And I'm so excited to be interviewing you for this episode.

It's an honor to be here.

One of the spaces where, where we shared after that initial meeting was at Happy Startup Summer Camp in Brighton, actually in the UK, and we were in a teepee, it was nighttime, and you and Ada were sharing about the story of how the two of you met through music and storytelling.

And it was so raw and vulnerable that people were crying.

I mean, like, for real.

And I don't think I've ever heard a man talk about his feelings was so much self-awareness.

And to also navigate what others could perceive as a tricky ex situation, uh, for Ada, you know, with so much grace and compassion and understanding.

I remember thinking Oh wow, this guy is special.

And that's actually how I learned about how you guys had met.

So when I think about men, and I wanna be clear that part of what we're trying to do with this podcast and this journey and this exploration is to go beyond binary concepts of what it means to be men and what it means to be women.

But this is the language and the reality of the world we live in right now.

And so I'll say that when I was thinking about men that have integrated what we typically associate with feminine qualities into their way of being and showing up in the world, talking about their emotions, sharing care for others, I.

Immediately thought of you.

And I'm curious as to this is something that you're aware of and if there's any conscious work that you did to integrate these qualities in yourself.

I mean, the answer is to that question is yes, there's been a, I am aware of it and it's taken a lot of work to get to this place.

I think, I think when I look back at the arc of my life, I, I see always a tender soul that, that has wanted to, make people feel cared for, um, to relate with one with other humans, and, and who has always wanted to respect other human beings.

But I deeply as the, as the firstborn child of my family, as, uh, of the oldest of three brothers, um, and one sister there is a, a very strong masculine energy to the way that I show up in the world.

One of my core experiences of death and rebirth and in my own heroine's journey has been around kind of laying down the, the armor and the weapons of masculinity to take up a more, um, vulnerable place, a more vulnerable expression of myself.

Out of a time of like need, I met a crossroads where like my relationship wasn't gonna go any further and if I didn't do this work, um, because it was toxic there in, in so many ways and I didn't, you know, that that was the choice I had to make in order to preserve something that I knew was beautiful and good for me and for the world, which is my relationship with Ada.

And can you describe a little bit of that work that you did?

Because I think that's something that a lot of men are feeling called to do and they don't know how.

I, I wanna say one thing around, you know, I think, I think one of the qualities of living into, um, our, our feminine capacity as a human being is, is vulnerability.

And I think I kind of tricked myself so much of my life, and I don't know if anyone out there listening will resonate with that, but I always thought that I was a very vulnerable person.

Um, I grew up in, in a very, like, dedicated Christian community, and sharing about our process, sharing about where we're at, where my heart was at, um, the things I was struggling with was a really big part of my identity, honestly.

To being able to share those things openly was something that I took a lot of pride in and, and practiced a lot, um, with other, with other men and, and in, the social circles that I was a part of.

But what I came to realize later on in my life as I, as I grew up, was that I wasn't actually being vulnerable.

I had just normalized a certain expression that looked like vulnerability to many people because what I was sharing would've been uncomfortable for a lot of people, but never was uncomfortable for me.

And so, my point of vulnerability just was it a different place and with different material.

And to actually come face to face with those parts of myself that I actually didn't wanna share in the, the places, the parts of me that didn't want to show their soft parts to the world that wanted to stay protected, that was a whole new opening for me.

And I think that, that happened after my partner and I had been working together for a couple of years.

So when we met, um, it was pretty early on in, in our, in our working career together.

We had known each other for I think two years, and then we set off on this journey to, um, do storytelling through videography for different nonprofits and things, and kind of a gift economy model.

It was a fun, um, adventure for us, a way for us to travel, a way for us to experience different things, meet incredible people like yourself, um, and also to, you know, do something that felt really meaningful to us and, and to.

And, and to step into an entrepreneurial journey that, that I think we both had always been interested in exploring.

But throwing our relationship into the, the fire of, uh, living together, uh, you know, being on the road, having all of our finances stuck together, running a business together, making creative decisions in our work on a daily basis together, being hungry and on in foreign places, not knowing the language or the food or whatever a lot of the time.

What a

it just, oh my God, yeah.

It created such a, a, a rich, um, cooking pot for, for beauty to come up, for, for our relationship to galvanize, um, those parts of our togetherness that, that were, that were true and good and, and supportive of each of our wellbeing.

But also to bring to the surface some of the more, troublesome dynamics in, especially my personality.

And I won't speak to Ada but honestly I would've to think pretty hard to think about what troublesome things came to the surface about her personality.

Because really it was so much around my need for control.

And what that looked like was, you know, not respecting her creative expression, needing to kind of like downplay the ways that the things that she brought to the table because, you know, I knew better and, oh no, that's never gonna work, but we know we have to do it this way.

These, these kind of know-it-all.

definitely like oldest child, uh, kinds of dynamics, um, and definitely very masculine, you know, the man knowing better than the woman dynamics that just did not serve me, didn't serve our work, and it didn't serve our togetherness at all.

That's, that's amazing that you were able to see it.

And I imagine in retrospect you can see that control as a strategy or a learned attitude.

That control is equal to power.

Control is equal to decision making.

But really control is, for most of us, is a strategy to meet the need for emotional safety.

And it's an illusion.

Yeah, I mean, absolutely.

And I think, I think another dynamic that is at play there is, it's a, it's a strategy for having value.

I always think about the, the, the guys standing around the car engine.

You know, they're like quintessential masculine tableau, a bunch of dudes, you know, looking at the engine and one upping each other in, in their understanding of what's going on there.

And I think that little hilarious image that could be, that could be a little, uh, like a comic book, um, spread is I think unfortunately very true in the ways that we as men, give each other value, and the way that we perceive our receiving value is in what we know.

It's in being able to say strongly that this is what I believe, this is what I think, and this is the way it is.

And, oh, I experienced that and I did it this way, and my dad, da da da, and my grandfather da da da.

And these, these kinds of patriarchal lineages that, that, of experience that lead us to where we're at, that, that, that know things in the world, they make us feel valuable.

And I think that, there was a, a need and I think for all of us, to come to something that is truer within us, um, for that value that that doesn't rely on you know, the Letterman's jacket or the,

Mm-hmm.

The external validation.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, absolutely.

That's, that's one of the biggest shifts that, uh, Maureen Murdoch talks about when, when referring to the heroines journey is that incredible necessary movement that we're able to take from that constant desire for external val validation and getting our self-worth from there to actually going to the depths of our souls, confronting our shadows, confronting those dark sides of ourselves, being vulnerable and coming out on the other side reborn

The way that came to a head for us was, um, we, we had kind of done this work together.

We, we had traveled for like two years and went all over the world.

It was amazing.

Um, tons of learning.

We were back home and we were kind of trying to decide what do we want to do next?

Like, do we want to do this video work anymore?

Um, it was a really honest question, and I think I realized through that process, you know, there's, there's kind of these like mult, multi-layered, heroine's journey for me in this like, one moment that it all came to a head, um, which was my identity in, in the work that I had been in for the last, like six years.

My, my whole adult career basically at that point was around videography and digital media making.

Um, and also in, in my relationship with Ada, you know, what are we gonna do next and how are we gonna step into this next phase of our relationship?

And we we kind of went on a little retreat with ourselves, just the two of us to a yurt um, in the woods.

And we were just connecting on all of these things and asking these big questions and thinking back on the, on the years prior and where we had come from and where we were heading.

And, uh, we brought some instruments and, and one of the things we were kind of contemplating as we had been traveling around was that we were sharing songs and, and, and sharing our music where we could, you know, when somebody would have a guitar, we'd sing some of the songs that we had and everybody would say, oh, why are you doing this video thing?

And we would kind of laugh it off as like, oh yeah, because like, you don't make money in music.

You don't, nobody does music, you know?

Like um, but you know, that in a way was these like initial, these calls, these early callings toward what would eventually become our work.

And so in this, in this moment, there's all of these layers of myself, kind of like stirring in this pot.

And I remember we had a little altar set up on the side, uh, with, some different, kind of wisdom cards with some beautiful sayings on them, things that we were wanting to embody, some feathers of this bird that is very, uh, important to us and our relationship.

but I, I had these sticky notes that I had written on the wall, of things that I was wanting to step into, and they totally embody this, like, younger masculine identified version of myself.

And I loved how it kind of like captured this movement from, from the, the old normal paradigm to this like newer, um, embodiment of myself that was more authentic.

And the, the sticky notes say Goodbye hunger, hello passion.

Goodbye cool, hello enthusiasm.

Goodbye pleaser, hello giver.

Goodbye eager, hello enthusiasm.

I think in, in this shedding of the, the old, you know, the videographer and the, these, this really honest looking what, as those things were falling away, I think that so much of my conception of myself was becoming clear.

And I was dealing with, I was really grappling with these, these identities that were, that were formed at such a young age, um, around being cool and around having it together and around, you know, like I'm, I'm with such an expressive, beautiful, vibrant partner, and it's really hard to not show up to a, a social engagement and see how, like, scared I am in comparison to the bright light that she is in social settings.

And, and to go like, whoa, I am so protected here and she is so open.

And so this way that we were mirrors for each other I think was really beautiful.

And so I was having all these questions, um, around these dynamics around our career and, and really like some, some issues in our relationship that, that I, I kind of was touching into earlier around control.

And at the same time having the realization, what happened as this curtain kind of fell away of this facade, was I saw that I had been treating Ada so disrespectfully, um, in our relationship.

And she was trying to figure out what was going on.

She was really like, I, and I was basically telling her everything is fine, conflict in our relationship is normal.

We're doing a good job.

And I, I realized in this moment, uh, when I was really allowed myself to be vulnerable, that I had been gaslighting her our entire relationship.

And I had been gaslighting so many people in my life.

And, and that was, it was a really painful moment, um, for me to realize.

Um, and, and through this weekend we wrote this, this song, I was just sitting, it's one of the few times that this has really happened.

Every once in a while with creativity.

I'm, I'm sure, you know, we all experienced this where you just get this flash of inspiration.

I was playing the, the harmonium, and just kind of humming and, and singing a little bit.

And all of a sudden these words started coming.

And it was the tallest tree has fallen at last, the one inside my heart.

it doesn't even know it's passed.

It lays there soft upon the grass.

And And just this, this way that I just was so ready for this old version of myself, um, this tall tree, this beautiful expression that I had grown up that had served me so well.

But it was ready to go, you know?

And it was ready to, to die and to nurture the soils of a new expression of me.

And, you know, when I think about my journey, this experience of huge realization on so many levels of my life, all culminated in this one moment.

Thank you for sharing that.

And I'm, I'm just wondering what allowed you to see that realization so clearly?

You know, I think for all of us in our lives we're, we're getting these messages all the time.

and life has this way of doing it on so many different levels, you know.

And if we're willing to listen, we will get those messages and they, they come in the form of like being called to something greater, something more beautiful, something more expansive.

And they also come in the way of like seeing how we're hurting people, feeling immense pain at, at a dynamic within us that is no longer serving us.

And I think it was a, it just was the, the rich combination, the right chemistry for this chemical reaction to happen within me that just said like, I can't, I can't do this anymore.

I can't go this way anymore.

So with our work, you know, I, I was capturing the stories of so many beautiful people that were doing incredible things, and I was the guy behind the camera and I just found myself wishing I was on the other side of the camera.

I didn't wanna be the guy getting the story.

I wanted to, I wanted to be sharing my thing.

I kept asking myself, what, what would I share if I was being recorded?

What's your big story?

Yeah.

And that was a beautiful vision.

And on the other side, you know, in my relationship with Ada, there was these really painful dynamics coming to the surface, and she was feeling really unsafe in our relationship.

And, um, this same weekend, in a moment of like deep connection, I asked her to marry me, and she said yes, in that moment.

And like, as all of this stuff was coming to the surface and we were realizing how toxic some of these patterns were in our relationship, we ended up backing away from that.

And that was a really, like, painful moment.

But I think in, in so many different ways, I think the practice is just listening to life, and listening for those little voices that are ready for transformation and responding to that call.

What emerged new in you?

Did you experience a kind of rebirth or initiation that led you to seeing life in a new way?

I think I, I don't identify as having a, an awakening moment.

I feel like from there it was a lot of death and a lot of like, really arduous, like, climbing out of that hole.

And I feel like it it to this day, you know, in, in all of those aspects with, with our work, with my art, with my, in our relationship, I can look back and see where I'm at and, you know, you can turn around and look down into that pit that you, that you were kind of like dragging yourself out of and go, wow, I've come a long way and look how much, you know, like, look how dark it is down there and look at how bright it is up here.

But the experience of integration for me, um, and, and of like reawakening has been a really slow one in, in all areas of my life and, and, and continues to be a, a painful process and one that requires a lot of courage on a daily basis to continue showing up for, um, it doesn't, I, I never got to experience that, like, oh wow, I've just arrived.

Like, what a, what a beautiful thing.

You know, like waking up one morning and going like, this is it.

Yeah.

And I'm, I'm so glad you you're speaking of this because actually the rebirth, uh, the initiation is so messy too.

You know, it's learning, it's relearning, it's picking up broken parts of ourselves, figuring out what we still wanna carry forward, what we wanna leave behind, like how do we reassemble?

Uh, and, and oftentimes the rebirth can have a second culmination of death or many culminations of death.

Because as you learn new things and as you confront this new journey with that everyday courage that you're speaking of, new layers will come up, you know, and new shadows will come up.

And murdoch speaks to how the dissent can last years, it can last years.

And it, it can be very isolating because perhaps people around us don't understand what we're going through, you know?

It's, it's a difficult thing to explain, especially if there was attachment to our old selves and how we used to show up in the world.

Who is this new person?

Why are they acting so weird?

And, and that can be, you know, extra challenging.

So I, I really admire that you and Ada decided to go through that dissent and to explore how you want to unlearn and relearn your way of being in the world as individuals and together as a couple and as creators and musicians.

Because I think a lot of people don't, aren't able to choose that path, you know?

What, one or the other person is willing to go on it.

The other one is not, you know, it's not ready.

The reflection is too painful.

Um, but you guys made the choice to go through it together, and I'm wondering what that has meant for you.

Yeah.

I mean, again, looking back from this vantage point, it's been beautiful and it's a, it's a beautiful story.

I think that's the, that is the amazing thing about looking at our life through these, um, mythological, this mythological lens is we can, we can see the story of hardship, um, and of tribulation, and of trials and of, you know, adventures.

You know, in hindsight you look back and you go, wow, what an adventure we've been on in the moment.

And you're like, I'm scared shitless this sucks ass, and I just like, don't want to be here.

And where are we going?

are we going?

Yeah, so I, I think the experience has been one of, unbelievable success and we are gonna get married here in just a few months, actually.

So, that story line, that arc of re cultivating a trust uh, in each other again after honestly betraying a lot of trust for her, because of the actions that I had been perpetuating through our relationship.

it's amazing to be at this place where we're both just like excited beyond belief about spending our lives together, um, and making that commitment and feeling safe to do that.

So such a testament to.

our ability to do that kind of hard work that, you know, I think a lot of times we look at relationships and in our freedom that we have in this day and age to, to choose and, and the vast ocean of fishes that are out there, it's really easy to kind of go, well, I don't know.

It's like, yeah, yeah, there maybe, maybe this just isn't right.

And a lot of times it's not right and it's good that people, that people leave and that we have the freedom to do that.

But for us, I feel like it was, it was a calling to explore something deeper for both of us and to, and to make the repairs that we needed to.

And that was the learning that, that we needed.

And I'm grateful that we went on that journey.

And continue to, because those dynamics are still there.

I still am like, a mansplaining asshole a lot of times.

And it's frustrating.

It's really frustrating to see those dynamics still at play in me after so much work and so much contemplation and so much understanding.

I sit here and I can psychoanalyze myself and I can talk about it like I've got it figured out, but it's a daily thing.

That brings me to vocation and these wonderful words I heard recently about vocation, which is that your job is to figure out what the world is trying to be.

And vocation comes from the Latin voca, a calling.

And in a way, the entire heroines journey and what we've been talking about with your story starts with a calling that leads to death and rebirth into more authentic parts of ourselves, and then going back into the dissent and.

All these things.

But eventually we're able to not be so conditioned by that external validation and those societal impositions, or at least observe them, be aware of them, be working on them.

I'm wondering if your experience of becoming as an individual or with Ada in partnership, does it relate to the gift that you're sharing with the world today?

Yes, absolutely.

I mean, every, every time we step into a more authentic expression of ourselves, we are able to give more truly of the abundance that, that we find from within us.

And I think that that's really what this journey is about, is about, you know, like you said, turning from that external validation to, uh, an internal validation.

And through learning to receive our own validation from ourselves and practicing that, we can begin to then offer more to others, because we don't have to wait for someone else to fill our cup anymore, we can go and fill it ourselves.

You know, I, I have this image of what that process is like of turning toward ourselves for, for nourishment.

And it's, it's hard.

It's really, really hard, you know, and I think that this connects back to some of the stuff we just were talking about around this return and how the, it is this arduous process where you're just, you know, you're, you're falling over and over again.

Because I think what's difficult is that we speak what we want.

We speak for help, we ask for help.

And oftentimes it doesn't come from the world outside of us.

We can ask again and again, and it sounds like we're just kind of screaming into nothingness.

These questions, these prayers, these hopes, these pains, these hurts.

And I think that for me, this creates this beautiful image of what meditation is, of what, um, mindful practice is, is coming to ourselves to sit in silence and to speak what we truly desire, to silence.

And to be okay when we only hear our own voice speaking into that void.

That is such an important practice that I think we, most of us don't really get offered that a, a tool set for that.

And, and takes an incredible amount of courage to be okay with just hearing ourselves.

And, and there's a, there's a practice of self-love and a practice of self-respect and of care for ourselves that then grows up when we can hear ourselves in that moment, when we can, we can, when we can feel compassion arise within us at our own voice, at our own need.

And, and a resilience and a kind of peace that comes when, when we have faith in ourselves, when we have trust in ourselves to be able to meet life.

And, and when we hear life, you know, we know that life is on the other side of that hearing us, and it's not just about ourselves.

It's about being a part of something greater.

And I, you know, what, how I think of it in, in, in our work through music and in our, in, in the methodology that we've developed, how this, how we do this, how we practice this is on, on three levels.

Is making sense, which, which is this kind of a fun play on words.

We can step out of the need to make sense with our minds and into a practice of simply making sense of our senses.

Just feeling into our senses, seeing what's here for me right now.

Arriving to what is.

This kind of, this first step of deep listening that is a, central part of a, a meditation practice, a central part of this relating to the unknown, to the silence, to the parts of us that are murky and dark and we don't get yet and we don't know how to integrate, and we don't know where these things fit together yet.

Cuz our minds just wanna have it all figured out.

They're constantly chomping at the bit to have it all there, to be prepared to, move on again, because they're uncomfortable with not knowing.

Yes.

And that's one of the huge gifts of the heroines journey is to lean into the not knowing which is the ultimate truth.

It doesn't matter how much we plan for things.

It doesn't matter how much we think ev, we have everything figured out the truth of life is uncertainty, is impermanence, is constant change.

And the more we can remain open to that truth and to live our lives as open questions that won't always have the answers right then and there, they're not always immediate.

They will unravel over time if we are loyal to them.

So I think listening, as you say, so that we can become also clear on what we know and what feels true, but also what are the questions I want to ask myself, and how can I remain loyal to them so that they can speak to me over time and how can I create the conditions to listen and notice when they are speaking to me?

Yeah, there's a beautiful, uh, Sufi poem by Rumi and just the one line came to me was just ask for what you really want.

the door is round and open.

Ask for what you really want.

There's just, uh, this beautiful image of, of that opening.

You know, I think so, so much in, in our youthful dependence upon the world, we feel like we need to get things from other people like we're talking about, but we do.

The door is open for us to ask ourselves what we want and to not be afraid to ask for that, I think is, is a wonderful practice.

But yes, and that, that, that unknowing, the, the unknown and, and developing a relationship with that is, is a huge, is what I would consider my spiritual practice.

To me, that would be my definition of what spiritual practice is, is developing a relationship with the unknown.

and part of that is, is, asking questions and, and hoping to receive answers and sometimes receiving the answers.

So there is clarity in that practice, but there's also a things that you just, never hear back,

Or at least not yet.

Yep.

Exactly, yeah.

We have this, the beginning of the practice is making sense, stepping out of our sense, making mine and into our senses.

And that can just, that's, that's a beautiful mindfulness practice just to sit down and say, what's really here for me right now?

It's, it's making, it's coming to presence.

And then we, we move.

What happens when we do that, when we give ourselves the, the space to feel what our body needs to feel to, to feel our senses, is that we start to notice tension.

We start to notice ease.

We start to notice openness.

And we start to notice the way that emotions sit in our bodies.

And it creates this wonderful opening for us to feel what is really true and present for us right now.

And we can see the ways that, you know, maybe what's been driving this anxiety is fear of x y Z or disappointment at something not going right or whatever it is that is, that is the complex circumstances of your existence right now.

Um, but we, we get to listen to those small voices, in ourselves.

Cuz we are complex creatures and we carry our entire lives with us all the time.

And yet at the same time, we are unique among creatures, I think in, in our capacity to, to ignore parts of ourselves and to wonder who we really are and to repress parts of who we are, of our nature.

And I think so much of the way that we live fearfully when we try to conform ourselves to the world is we, we ignore the voices that are, that, that don't fit, and we try to repress them.

And this practice is about inviting all of ourselves on this journey and, and in making it an effort on a daily basis to check in with the parts of us that are feeling resistant to come along for the journey and, and, and inviting them to come with us because we need all of those parts.

They're, they are, they are crucial to our experience and, and to the gifts that we have to give to this world.

And so the way that those parts of us express themselves often is just in feelings.

And so giving ourselves the space to feel what we need to feel, we, we call this area the feel to heal.

Um, and there's just something so beautiful about just feeling what needs to be felt and, and inviting all of those parts of us along for the journey and giving them the spaciousness and the, and the dignity to be able to feel, to be heard.

With compassion

In kindness.

Each, part has an emotional need that is important to us and that, you know, they're trying to take care of us.

So if, if we can meet them with that compassion, we can move away from.

The self-judgment that so many of us spend most of our lives in

Yes, those, those toxic masculine, patriarchal bullshit patterns that I am still wrestling with all the time have served me.

They were a huge protection mechanism, a way that I found, to fit in at a time when I felt like I needed belonging and I needed to fit in, and I needed recognition.

And, those patterns served me and I, I, I, to just stomp them out and to say, no, you suck, go away, is denying something that was once crucial and true for me, that I needed.

And I wanna say something to that, but I wanna make sure that there isn't a step three or something so that you can finish your process before I speak to that.

Yeah, there is one more step, and that is, that is just that when we, once we felt what we need to feel, it Krenn it, it can create this opening for us to surrender to what is.

Um, and this is where the, the area, this practice area, you know, is called living at the Edge.

And it is about stepping up to that edge of our understanding and looking out at the vast expanse of, of unknown and seeing it not as a pit of doom and despair, but as a space of possibility that we could soar into, you know, that we might, you know, if we, if we take that leap of faith, we could, fly in that space.

But the practical part of this, of this journey that we go on and what we lead people through with music is that we kind of need to honor all these parts of ourselves, our senses, our need to make sense, our feelings, um, in order to step up to this edge, in order to feel safe, to step up to that edge and, and to surrender to what is.

And then from that place we can step back into our need, our making sense minds, and we can process these things and we can journal and we can play with the ideas and we can fit the pieces together in a way that, that CR starts to, we can start to write our own mythology.

We can start to write our own heroine's journey,

Our own personal myth.

And that's where our mind can be such an incredible ally, but it's working from the inside out instead of from the outside in.

I'm so glad you talked about inviting in and even feeling gratitude for those more quote unquote masculine aspects or qualities of yourself because they served you and that that feels like a really important clarifying point that I wanna make about this journey, is that, um, and, and the issue that I have and that we have as producers of this show, because I speak for a group of women with the binary of referring to men and women, is that, you know, those quote unquote masculine qualities and quote unquote feminine qualities, they're all so important.

They're all so precious.

And that journey of developing skills so that you can go out into the world and be acknowledged and be seen and be recognized and, and then in that being seen, learn to trust yourself and, and gain self-assurance and, and pierce the world with your projects or whatever it is that you're doing.

And that determination and that ability to, to make things happen is a wonderful thing, you know?

And, and I think a lot of times we need to navigate that path of autonomy and of independence before we can dive deep into this space of interdependence.

You know, I, I think that the, the dynamic between the, the masculine and feminine too, one thing I wanted to say was that there's a quality of, putting them in service of one another.

And, that they compliment each other deeply, like you were saying.

And, um, the I Ching has this beautiful way of, recognizing how in nature the strong supports the weak.

And you know, like those are, those are like deeply loaded words in our culture, as strong as in our patriarchal language is, is good and, and right, and weak is, is like sad and wimpy, but that's not how it is in nature.

Like this, I have a tree behind me here and its trunk is strong and it's, and it's robust and it can stand up to a lot of force and it needs to, in order to hold up the whole organism.

But these leaves are weak.

They're wimpy little leaves.

And we can say that with like disdain or we can recognize the power that there is in their softness, in their willingness, in their, uh, in their delicacy to be able to accept light, to be able to, Integrate the nutrients of, of air and to be able to, you know, bring water through their system.

And so there's, there's this one image that I recently, I've just been kind of diving into the I Ching a little bit more recently.

And I came with a question around some impatience I was having with in my life.

And, the image, the, the image that came back from, from the text, um, was one of a mountain with a lake.

And the way that the mountain is kind of represented as this masculine force of, of strength and of, of, uh, resilience and of, and of perseverance.

The mountain stands there regardless.

You know, it's getting buffeted by wind and rain all the time, but it stands there, it perseveres and it gathers.

As the clouds break upon its face, it gathers up a lake within it, which is this very receptive feminine image, uh, um, and that, that that simply gathers and it calls others to it.

And so in, in this moment of feeling impatient with our work, this was the image that that was reflected back to me, of, of being patient and waiting and, and continuing to gather nourishment for others to come.

To, to be replenished in by, by that lake.

And so I, I just really wanted to share that image because I think that this, there is such a way that we can just look to nature, we can look around us and see the masculine and feminine qualities of life being played out in such natural ways like that.

It is what life is.

So interdependent ways

Mm-hmm.

And to understand that whatever gender we are, we have all of those qualities in us.

We may have.

More of some of them, or you know, less of the other.

And, and so part of our life mission or calling is to learn of the qualities that are weaker in us, you know?

Um, but, but, we have them all in us.

And I feel so sad that, you know, that the institutions that we've created somehow oblige women to have only quote unquote feminine qualities and men to have only quote unquote masculine qualities.

And I think a lot of the healing that needs to happen for us to weave a new paradigm and a new dream and a new reality, which is a lot of the work that we do as healers, is around that.

I think that, yeah, I, I, I think I, I'm seeing now the, the beauty of interdependence through this lens, that, that we need one another and that for me, Ada, as this like picture of someone who has, had the opportunity to steep herself and, and, and shown up for the trials and tribulations of being a woman in our society and, and chosen to continue to stay soft, to continue to live into the beauty of the feminine because it's her nature and she's so good at it.

And she, I am so dependent upon her to learn these qualities, in, in an intimate way and to receive the beauty of the way that she shows up in the world so that I can convince myself those small, afraid parts of myself that, that don't want to be vulnerable, that I can have, like, living proof within me and in my life

that, that it's okay to be like that, um, and that it's beautiful and good to be like that.

I wanna ask you about authenticity because that's something that you've mentioned often in this conversation.

And specifically, I wanna know, in this process of becoming, did you let go of things.

In retrospect, you can see that you were repressing to be able to express yourself more fully.

You know, I th I think about authenticity in like a nature sense in that like we are, we are vessels of our experience.

We're constantly moving with everything that we are into every moment, and we're constantly integrating where we are at, what is around us, what people are saying, the foods of this particular place.

And so, you know, in some ways we are these incredibly unique expressions of this little moment in time, this place that we are at, and end of the experience that.

Brought into this moment.

And for me, authenticity.

I think oftentimes we kind of think that there is this like inborn quality.

I'm trying to find my authentic self and I just don't know what it is.

And I think I knew it once, but it's just, it's kind of the wrong way to look at it.

I, in my mind, I maybe wrong way is strong language, but what I think authenticity is, is showing up to now to what is to this moment with the most receptivity, with a, a willingness to listen and to integrate what there is here to embody.

What is life, you know, it's like that vocation.

What is the world trying to be?

You know, I, we can ask ourselves that.

What am I trying to be?

What is ripe to come in this moment?

In this particular mixing pot?

That is my whole experience, meeting this moment in this place right now?

And that's how it's authentic and we don't, you know, it's not about going back to some earlier version of yourself.

That was more Right.

That was right because it was.

That's what was true in that moment.

Yes, yes.

So I think authenticity is very much a, a present centered place and it is helpful to recognize the ways the resistances within us, and, you know, the prideful things and the, the hurtful parts of us that, that aren't serving how we are showing up in the world.

And I think that that's, you know, it's good to see those things and to say, oh, you know, there's a, there's maybe a, a truer way for me to show up now.

But I, I think that it creates this kind of like false, sense that the way I was, was inauthentic and the way that I am now is more authentic.

I think we're constantly trying to be more authentic, but simply because it was means that it was authentic.

It was the only way you could be in that moment.

Your life experience had brought you to that moment.

And maybe it wasn't nice.

Maybe you were trying to be someone else.

But there's a good reason why you were trying to be someone else.

And it so, you know, to me that means that it was authentic.

And don't shame yourself for that.

Recognize that it was painful and it was hurtful for yourself, and it was hurtful for others, and that maybe you don't need to do that anymore.

Mm-hmm.

I'm wondering if what you just described as authenticity shows up in the way you serve the world through music and through sound healing.

you know, our work is so much why, why I see this, you know, this conversation around the her heroines journey as such a, um, as, so in my wheelhouse as so like a part of who I am is that it is really what we're practicing is taking an in art and in music specifically, we are gathering our experiences up and reflecting on them and seeing these archetypal images that come up.

These metaphors and, um, that, that our lyrics play off of.

These, like, textures to the sound that, that capture an essence of how we're feeling, um, of what, uh, an experience is.

Like, maybe it's like rhythmic and driving, or maybe it's soft and flowing, or maybe it's, um, rich and deep, or maybe it's light and lofty.

You know, there's, there's all of these ways that music can help us capture, um, the essence of a moment.

And what's beautiful about music is it's spacious enough to be interpreted to translate.

And, and it speaks in this language that, that resonates in people, in a way that goes beyond language.

You know, it's, it goes beyond the, our, our spoken word.

And it can convey so much of what it is that I am experiencing in this moment, in a way that if I talk to you about it, you might go, yeah, you know, I've never really experienced it quite like that.

Like, that sounds kind of foreign, but when I can put it to images and when I can put it to sound, all of a sudden there's a whole way in which your body can respond in its own authentic way.

And I think for, for me, this art form of, of music, the expression this work is about capturing what I feel is true about my experience.

And, you know, out of, in some ways, like a desire to be seen by myself.

That's where it comes from first is I'm processing things, I'm trying to integrate something, I'm trying to find words that, and, and images and, and tonal qualities that, that can help me make sense of what my experience is right now.

It's a, it's a deep listening practice to translate that into something that, that feels right, you know, into a song that goes, oh, this just gets it.

This is, this is it.

And in the writing, I feel seen, I feel heard.

And then that in extension can be shared with others to help them feel seen and heard.

So they can go, oh my gosh, I know that place.

Um, I feel that and I can feel seen just simply in hearing that someone else is feeling it too.

And that can be deeply healing for people.

Yeah, absolutely.

And I mean, going back to, to what you shared about your practice and making sense, then inviting all the parts to feel and then living at the edge.

I mean, music and the kind of music that you two share does exactly that.

I, I feel all the feels when I listen to you guys, I, it's like I crack open and I feel things that I didn't even know I could feel like I can sense things I didn't know I could sense, and it brings up things in me that need to bubble up and need to come out in tears sometimes, or simply need my awareness and my attention in that moment need to be cradled somehow.

So it, it truly is mysterious to me how music does that, you know, how, how music serves us in that way and brings us back to our body, you know.

As, as a woman that has suffered in our system and in our current definitions of success from disassociating, from her body in order to be successful and productive all the time, and busy and associating her sense of self-worth through her work, coming back to my body feels sacred.

Things that help me to come back to my body feel sacred.

And that's what your music does for me.

And I know it does for a lot of people.

You guys have an online community now?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think, you know, our, our expression in our work over the, the, these last few years has, has been largely online.

It makes sense with the, with the global pandemic.

And, and we, we host weekly, um, open spaces on a platform called Insight Timer.

it's a, it's a live gathering where people can come and, um, interact in the chat, and we just offer about an hour and a half of music, um, that, that kind of comes a lot of songs that we've written, a lot of stuff that's just kind of like, comes in the moment and is intuited, um, or, and improvised, but that, that we are always kind of exploring and crafting this arc of experience that we hope people can journey on into themselves to practice these things that we're talking about today.

and to be able to feel the things that they need to feel and to step up to that edge of their knowing and to feel resourced at that, at that place.

You know, part of what excites me about this archetypical journey is that I.

See in this map of meaning a possibility, not just for understanding our own stages of developments and processes of grief and growth, but also an invitation to a new paradigm that welcomes acceptance of things as they really are, that welcomes our authentic selves.

And I love how you describe that, that welcomes collaboration and community and surrender and connection to the divine and realizing we're not separate from the divine.

And I see this effort that has gone into this podcast as a way of weaving a new collective narrative.

I think we're in deep need of that.

And, and I know that healing is a huge part of that narrative, and at the same time, it's been a word that is thrown around, you know, and misused and just, overused and all kinds of things.

So I wanted to know, what role do you think healing, as you understand it, plays in the construction of this new narrative that we're weaving?

I love that image that you have of the world that, that you are, that you envision and, and the way that you're, you're kind of showing up to, to be a vessel of, uh, this, this message.

I really appreciate that.

And you know, I think, I think this play of the masculine and feminine is such a, is such a, um, a key part of this conversation.

Because the way that I see healing is that we are soft and vulnerable creatures in our nature.

And we also have power and we have grit, and we have try hard and we have perseverance, and we have, you know, we can, we can stand up for ourselves and we can put up defenses and we can go after the things that we want.

And, you know, I think about our, our growth as human beings, as, um, you know, in order to grow you have to be soft.

You have to be able to expand, but in order to be safe, you have to protect.

And there are ways that we come, we, we develop protection mechanisms to shield ourselves to, from real harm because life is intense and it's violent and it's, and it hurts.

And the older I get, the more astounded I am that we even get as far as we do because it's just like a lot.

And the more we open ourselves to it, the more we see just like how intense it is.

So the way that I see the, the, the founda, what healing is is protecting ourselves at the times that we need to be protected.

That's a part of being healthy.

Um, and those boundaries, do we need those, um, but also to serve our growth, those rigid structures of defense will hold us back from our next phase of evolution, our next, the, the next expression of who we are.

So we need to dissolve those.

And I kind of see healing as this kind of slow dissolution of these parts of us that once served us very well, but are ready to be let go of so we can grow into the new form of us.

Just like you know, like a, like a hermit crab has to find a new shell that's big enough to, to hold its growing form, it's this dance between the two.

What to you means to be whole human beings living in whole societies?

And I know that requires some radical imagination because it feels like we're far from that at this point, but

I think just being gracious with ourselves to be where we're at, even if it's not perfect.

I think sometimes we think of this like whole expression of who we are, and it's some future thing that we feel so far away from, but what if it wasn't?

What if we're not?

You know, like, yes, we are screwing a lot of things up.

And it's life is not always comfortable and there's a lot of suffering.

And yet we're here and I think that's step one to step into our wholeness is to embrace what we are and to stop rejecting the parts of us that we've, you know, don't like and start re, re stop rejecting others that we don't like and start embracing one another and ourselves.

Sounds like radical acceptance to me.

You know?

And I love that you said that it's not perfect.

I think that's really, really important because I think a lot of what we've inherited has resulted in this endless pursuit of perfection.

You know, the perfect body, the perfect partner, the perfect work environment.

and perfection is an illusion, and wholeness is certainly not perfection.

And, and I think we can relax in that a little bit.

You know, we, we, can ask how can we turn ourselves to what feels life giving?

How can we be an acceptance of what is right now and what is for others too?

and become conscious of our complexity and, and work with that.

Because in that complexity, there's a potential to be wise.

Yeah.

I'm just, I'm so aware as you're speaking, and so many of your listeners are, I'm sure going to be women and the ways that we have asked women as a society to be perfect, and we've expected them to be perfect and, you know, boys will be boys but women need to like, have it all together.

And I, it is, I mourn that so much for, so many people who have identified as, as women and, and been identified as women and expected to uphold that impossible task.

It's an impossible task.

I feel like I can't do it anymore.

The cost is too high.

We need to let go of that pursuit of perfection.

And we need to stop expecting it of each other.

Yes, yes.

Become compassionate about our processes of, you know, wherever we are at in our processes.

And that doesn't mean, you know, not setting boundaries and all the things that we've talked about, but compassion, more compassion.

I was listening to Krista Tippet.

She, she hosts my favorite podcast of on being, and.

We were just talking about nature and, and she was asking this question about the possibility of wholeness.

And in one part she says, all of life is being revealed in the insistence of wholeness.

It is the calling of callings to make it vivid, practical, and real, starting with ourselves.

And I really love that.

I have a last question for you, and this is something that I'm asking everyone in every episode, which is if you could paint an image of this phase of the heroines journey of the return specifically and its main themes and your personal experience with it, what would the painting be?

I, I, I come back to nature and I, you know, I see a tree because I just feel like it's such a beautiful symbol of, natural integration, of effortless being, of perseverance and dedication and strength and, and suppleness.

And there's just so many pieces of what a tree embodies when, when, when we really look that, that have to do with this, this moment.

I love that.

And what does the tree look like?

I would say for this phase, the image now I'm getting more is like a nurse log.

It's the tree in its, in its adolescent phase growing from the parts of an older expression.

As we come to a close, is there anything else you wanna share with the people out there that might be listening?

Keep listening and keep welcoming and keep accepting the, parts of you that come up as they do.

And I'm just leaning into how hard that must feel for some people.

You know, how much grief and pain is alive in so many people right now?

I, I can feel it in my body.

It feels visceral.

You know, And I see the wisdom in what you're saying.

And at the same time, I can just really feel that collective pain

There's so much in life that is unacceptable.

That shouldn't have happened.

That shouldn't be.

And how do we hold both?

How, how do we hold the perfection of this moment and if of what is, and also the anger and the rage, and the sadness.

And the loneliness that so many people, so many of us are experiencing.

And what I can say to that is that you're not alone, and that you don't have to go through it alone.

Look for those reflections in people, in nature, in therapists, in whatever you can do that allow you to see who you are and to take charge of your narrative.

And, and that it doesn't, have to be accepting the events in your life that are painful.

The way that it starts is, is with you.

And that's what's so beautiful about the heroine's journey being this inward focused journey, is that our responsibility is first and foremost to, to gather up the parts of us, those scared parts, those angry parts, and to not reject them any longer.

This episode with Nathan was made possible by Hotel.

Its vision of regenerative sustainability offers elevated hospitality while embracing nature's transformative energy in the Monterrey de Cloud Forest.

You can find them at hotelbelmar.

net.

Also Nucleo, a holistic business consulting and sustainable project management firm in service of new social systems.

Find more at nucleo.com.

Wow, there's so much we could unpack in this episode, from Nathan's understanding of authenticity and wholeness, to how hopeful it feels to listen to a man speak with so much self awareness and willingness to recognize his shortcomings and blind spots.

What are you taking away?

My three takeaways are, first and foremost, this idea of developing a relationship with the unknown as a spiritual practice.

Second, the importance of looking inside of ourselves.

Listen is a word Nathan uses a lot during this episode, and how listening to the different parts of ourselves is a gateway to honoring, accepting, and embracing all of who we are, even the parts we might not like.

And third, and I'm sure other people can resonate with this, Is this hope that it is possible to work things out and grow with a long term partner, even when there's been gaslighting or unconscious behaviors that have been damaging to the relationship/ if you work hard on it together with that unwavering conviction, there is a way forward.

A deep thank you to both Ada and Nathan for modeling that.

I want to leave you with a phrase that Nathan and Ada say in their beautiful song that they sang at the end.

When there's no one left but space.

You might just find grace.

If you want to connect with our community and find out more information about this phase, make sure to follow us on Instagram at the Heroines Journey Project.

If you enjoyed this episode, please recommend it, share it, and consider rating it so that others can find it more easily.

Remember, you can find this and all episodes at christineraine.org/podcast and all platforms where podcasts are found.

This first season has original music by singer songwriter Nick Mulvey, as well as Pasiflora.

See you next time for our final episode of this first season, where the tables will turn and I will be the one interviewed by one of the show's producers, Sarah Salim, about my own heroine's journey, very much unfolding as we were creating this show.

It's gonna be a special edition with highlights of the whole first season.

So don't miss it.