Many capable leaders are delivering results yet quietly feeling more disconnected, from their teams, from peers, and sometimes from themselves.

This isn’t a personal failing. It’s a predictable consequence of pressure, complexity and the way senior leadership roles have evolved.

In this episode, we explore why disconnection is becoming more common at senior level, even among highly experienced operational leaders. Drawing on leadership psychology, current research and Zentano’s Connected Leadership framework, we unpack what disconnection really looks like, how it shows up in everyday behaviour, and the hidden costs it creates, for performance, trust and long-term impact.

This conversation is for leaders who sense something isn’t quite right, even though everything looks fine on the surface, and who want to lead with greater clarity, connection and influence without simply pushing harder.

Key Talking Points

1. Disconnection from Self – The erosion of reflection, emotional insight, and intuition.
2. Disconnection from Others – Overreliance on transactional leadership, the myth of the heroic leader, and the undervaluing of time spent building relationships.
3. Disconnection from Complexity – Treating organisations as machines, not ecosystems; wanting certainty and ignoring adaptive thinking.
4. Disconnection from Purpose – Losing sight of meaning in pursuit of efficiency, and an insufficient focus on values-led leadership.
5. Disconnection from Nature & Sustainability – Operating in extractive ways that ignore our embeddedness in larger systems.

Welcome to Unleash youh Impact Unlock Others, a podcast about inspiring leadership. We hope to bring you grounded wisdom stories from real leaders and leave you feeling inspired. Let's dive in.

Season's greetings from Unleash youh Impact Unlock Others. My name's Dave Morris. Now, Rich and I are on our Christmas break at the moment, spending time with loved ones.

But like most of you, we're going to relax, recharge, reflect, and get ourselves ready for a new year. And I know some people like to listen to podcasts as part of that process.

So what we thought we'd do is re release a couple of really important episodes that came out this year that really resonated with our listeners. So episode one. Today we've renamed this one why Capable Leaders Feel Increasingly Disconnected and what It's Costing Them.

So are you a leader that's delivering results, but you feel increasingly distant, maybe from your team, from your peers, or even maybe from the leader that you thought you were becoming? If so, this episode is for you. Many leaders, especially senior leaders, tell us they're doing everything that's expected of them.

Yet leadership feels more isolating, more pressured, hard work, and maybe even less human than it used to be.

So in this podcast, we're exploring why capable leaders feel increasingly disconnected, what it might be quietly costing them, and most important, what you can do about it. Thank you for listening to the podcast. This year, we look forward to many more episodes in the new year. Happy New Year.

Hi, Dave. All right.

How connected or disconnected are you feeling today, by the way?

I'm good at the moment. I've just had a sandwich, so I'm cool.

Great.

So, yeah, what I want to explore with you today, Rich, and I'm going to make a bold statement here, I think we have real issues with connection in the workplace.

And my evidence for that, apart from my own observed evidence, is if you look at some of the statistics around mental health issues, burnout, employee engagement, and productivity, a lot of those don't make great reading. And that suggests to me that we're not getting a lot of things right.

So what I'd like to sort of propose today is that that is being caused by some key areas where we're just Too disconnected.

And I'd like to explore those areas with you because if we can get a more balanced model of leadership where we do connect in the right way, I think we can transform performance, I think we can transform resilience, and I think we can find a better way forward for human beings. And of course, if our workplaces are better, it means our lives are better because we spend so much time at work.

I'd like to draw on your knowledge and experience as well, on things like neuroscience, particularly the role intuition plays in how we lead.

Why do you think that's happening?

So I think there are some unique challenges in contemporary society that are causing people to feel disconnected with self and disconnected with the people around them and disconnected actually with our environment, I think so. We talked in the last podcast about the challenge of hybrid working.

So that geographical physical disconnection is also causing an interpersonal relational disconnection as well. I think there's huge amount of challenges societally around social media.

Yeah. How we use technology for the good rather than the detriment is important, isn't it?

Yes. Yeah.

Yeah.

So, I mean, it's in the news that the huge impact social media is having on teenagers, but I think it's having a huge impact on adults as well.

Yeah.

So I'm not going to go on a particular rant about social media, but I think if it's used with a lack of self awareness, I think potentially it can drive disconnection in ourself and between those around us. So I think social media is one. So I think all of this stuff is driving a crisis in mental health and well being in the workplace.

So anxiety, depression, those things are on the earth that causes us to disconnect from ourselves and that has huge societal implications and organizational implications as well.

The other area of disconnection, I think, and I don't want to sound too New Agey about this, but is disconnection from our environment and seeing our planet as a sort of very transactional thing and almost like treating human beings as though we're separate from the planet and separate from our environment. And so this individualistic mindset that's pervaded sort of Western thinking over the last hundreds of Years.

I think it's really come to a head in our society and is causing huge, huge challenges, which I think if we can become more attuned to our environment and our planet and the nature around us can sort of drive a deeper connection with self and those around us.

Okay, so I've got five, what I call the five disconnections. And I'd like to explore these one by one with you. So that the five are disconnection from self, which you've just mentioned.

Disconnection from others, which you've just mentioned. Disconnection from complexity. Yeah.

Okay.

Okay, so I'll explain what we mean as we get into that one. Disconnection from purpose and meaning.

Right.

And as you said, disconnection from nature and the environment and all the things that are wrapped up in that. So that those are the sort of five disconnections I'd like to explore with you.

Yeah, so let's think about disconnection from self as a starting point.

Yeah. Okay.

Now, I don't know if you agree with me.

I think over the last however many decades there has been an overemphasis on sort of left hemisphere thinking, particularly in the workplace, and that creates imbalance.

Yes. Yeah, yeah.

So how do you think that's impacted disconnection from self? And what do we actually mean by disconnection from self?

So, yeah, I do agree, actually there is an overuse of like logic and control and rationality in our society currently. You could characterize that as very left brained. I suppose I'm sometimes a little bit hesitant about the concept of left brain and right brain.

We've talked about that in previous podcasts. I mean, the brain is a system and both hemispheres work in a symbiotic sort of fashion.

But actually as a metaphor for left brain and right brain thinking, I think it's a useful descriptor of the different styles or different ways of being that we have as human beings.

So, you know, you could characterize what we've traditionally called left brain is about logic, data, being very analytical, being very rational, that drives the way business operates. And I think at the cost of lack of balance around some of the, what we call the right brain style thinking.

So right brain style thinking is where actually we're more connected with the self and we're connected with our intuitive, instinctive, emotional self.

Yeah.

And we use that intuition in a way that's really powerful and really healthy. There are caveats attached to the use of intuition.

Absolutely.

Which we'll come to in a minute.

But I Think it's getting that balance right and reconnecting ourselves with our emotional stuff, reconnecting ourselves with our intuition and bringing that into your teams and into the workplace and into leadership.

So do you think that leadership undervalues self awareness? Do you think it undervalues working on your inner self?

Because you mentioned reflection just now and I don't see too many people doing enough self reflection and I know the excuse that will come up is I don't have time to do that kind of stuff. But it's a key part of the adult learning process. If we do not find time to reflect, if we do not work on our own levels of self awareness.

Yeah.

As you said before, we've all got blind spots and by definition we don't know what they are because they're blind. Blind spots. If we don't work on our inner self, then we are going to get disconnected, aren't we?

Yeah, yeah.

And I think that goes back to my comment earlier about, you know, the busyness in society, the oars on nature of what we do, constant streaming of sort of social media channels and that sort of stuff.

I think that causes that disconnection with self and we're in almost like a permanent reactive fight, flight, freeze sort of state if you like, with very little time for calm, rational reflection, I think. And so when we talk about self connection, that's what we mean.

So, you know, just taking a moment in your day to stop and to really connect with what's going on with you in terms of emotionally and intuitively with you as a human being.

Yeah. And I've talked about this on the podcast before and I don't mind talking about it again. You know.

You know, I've lost both my father in law and my father in the last couple of years and both of those things have had quite an emotional impact on me. But I don't think until I'd done some sort of proper reflective thinking about it, I'd realized how much impact that had and why it had an impact.

And I think once I'd done that reflective thinking, it was actually really powerful and cathartic and it allowed me to sort of get over that in a more healthy way.

Yes. Yeah.

And I think sometimes you have to make the time like you talked about being intentional.

You have to be intentional about this because the danger is if we don't do that intention and we don't do that reflective learning, we carry that stuff with us.

Yes.

And it impacts the way that we operate, doesn't it?

Yeah. I mean if you carry unhealthy, unprocessed, emotional stuff into the workplace, I mean clearly that's going to have an impact on performance.

Yeah, it's going to have an impact on the mood that you bring into your team.

And if your team also are in a disconnected state and they're not processing their emotional stuff in a healthy way and they're not connecting with each other on that deeper emotional level, that's going to have an impact on team dynamics. That's going to have an impact on performance.

So why do you think we do undervalue software so much? Why do we undervalue doing work on our inner self? As you say, sometimes people just will badge it up as that sort of new age nonsense.

But it's not, and we know it's not.

Well, I guess because it's hidden. So it's not easy to measure, it's not easy to quantify. So you know, we're very data driven in our society.

We're very, you know, very evidence based and that brings huge benefits to society.

You know, if you think about the scientific method and its focus on all that sort of stuff, it's brought us a lot of value in terms of technology and other stuff. But actually you. It's difficult to measure and see emotional stuff because it's internal.

Yes.

It's interior to us. And you know, you can say glib things like, you know, I need to trust my intuition. But I think intuition is hugely misunderstood and undervalued.

So let's unpack a little bit then, what we mean by intuition, because that's probably a good point.

Yes, to do that.

Okay, so what is it? When do we trust it?

So I think it's important not to have a simplistic view of intuition. Okay, so a simplistic view of intuition was, is to treat it simply as our gut feeling.

Yeah.

Okay, so we're in a situation and we get emotionally triggered by something and we characterize that is our intuitive response.

On one level that might be true, but when I talk about intuition, actually what I'm talking about here is intuition in decision making in the workplace, in terms of our interactions with other human beings around us, etc, etc, deep intuition draws on what we call tacit knowledge.

In other words, that bank of knowledge and experience that you've built up as a human being is in your field, your area of expertise, whatever that might be, and the ability then to use that tacit knowledge.

So that's all that stuff that's hidden away inside your head, all those patterns of Knowledge and experience and intuition, what it does, almost unconsciously, it makes the connection or connections between that tacit knowledge and experience and does sort of like pattern recognition.

Yeah.

So when we have a hunch about something that's within our area of expertise, that sort of intuitive sense of something's not quite right here. What your brain and, well, your whole sort of human.

Human being is doing is making connections, often unconsciously around all that tacit stuff that you've built up that. That bank of knowledge and experience. So, for example, if the.

If a surgeon is in the middle of an operation and suddenly they have a sense something is not quite right, that sort of gut feeling, all those operations that they've done over the last decade, or that bank of knowledge and experience, their intuition is saying, cernick's not right here.

Do you know what? I was listening to a brilliant podcast on this topic the other day, and it was.

Right, okay.

And it very, very nearly went horribly wrong and started World War Three. And that would have. That would have been a nuclear war.

Yeah, yeah.

And it's.

Most people don't know about this incident, but what they were talking about was two key people, one on the Russian side and one on the American side, that despite their orders, if this happens, you do this, decided to listen to their intuition, which said, this doesn't sit right with me, and made a decision that went against what they were instructed to do, and it was the right decision and it caused the right outcome. That's how. I mean, that's an extreme example.

I know, but there are times when actually your intuition is right, it's telling you something and you should listen to it.

Yeah, yeah. And I think it's really important that it's. I mean, sometimes intuition can be distorted by biased and unexamined beliefs.

Yeah.

You know, so that uncritical. Just trust in my gut instinct can potentially be really dangerous. So I think it's important.

If you're going to draw on your intuition, it's important that you're calm, that you're not driven by ego, you're not stressed.

So intuition comes from that state of deep connection, from a place where you feel calm and you're self aware enough to realize actually this is important and not just to be the sort of leader which says, well, I'm a leader that responds from the gut and always uncritically trusting your intuition. So when we talk about connection with self, it's about that healthy connection with our intuition.

Yeah.

I guess if we practice more reflective learning where we tap into this stuff, then when we are in those really stressful moments, we can rely on it more because we've done a lot of work.

Yeah.

And I think in those moments where we get that intuitive hunch, I think it's important to learn to interrogate your intuition and not to blindly follow it.

Okay.

Okay. So it's about bringing self awareness and being self aware enough to know actually. Okay.

Is this intuition telling me something important that I need to pay attention to right now or is it because I'm being triggered? Or is it because I'm being stressed? In which case that's just a triggered emotional response that you just need to process.

So this disconnection from self is being caused by us by being too busy, too on, too data driven.

Yeah.

Not valuing some downtime. Not valuing listening to our emotional self and learning what that is telling us.

Yes. Yeah.

Not using our intuition in the right way.

Yes. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think being in this calm, measured state.

So that doesn't mean you're not working at pace and all that sort of stuff, but actually that's.

Those are the situations where you're more likely to be able to trust your intuition than when you're overstressed or driven by ego or being triggered.

Yeah. And I guess the better you know yourself, the better you're going to react to the challenges that you've got around you.

Exactly, exactly.

Okay, that leads on to my next point about disconnection from others then. So, you know, we live in or have lived for a long time now in societies and businesses that are quite hierarchical.

And there's a positive aspect to that, as you said, quite transactional. I mean that's, that's become more and more the world that we live in. And we've also had this myth of the heroic leader.

Yeah, yeah. Okay.

I mean, maybe that's worth unpacking. Why have we got this myth of heroic leadership? What does it actually mean and why has it occurred?

Yeah, well, I think sometimes when people are promoted into senior positions, there's a weight of expectation sometimes that comes with being promoted into a position. You know, you're paid lots of money to be in a position of responsibility. You're given additional responsibility.

You know, you have a team of people sometimes, you know, maybe a big team of people to manage. And I think some People come into those roles with an expectation that, you know, they're the big person in this team.

They need to know all the answers. They need to be one that's setting the direction. They need to be one that's, you know, calling all the shots.

And on one level, some of that might be true. You know, you want leaders to be the strategic authority inside a team and to, you know, intersect direction.

But you don't have to do that on your own.

No.

And you don't have to know all the answers. And in fact, you know, the more senior you get, you're not going to know all the answers. You truly are not.

I mean, in my own experience, you know, managing a large IT function, there were certain functions in it that I was not really the expert in and I needed to trust the expertise of my team and I wasn't going to know all the technical answers because, you know, I was actually paid to be, you know, the strategic leader in that situation. Not necessary to know all the answers. Use your team, use the knowledge and experience in your team.

Use that stuff to get the answers and to understand the direction that you need to go in. Yeah.

And it's not always about charisma either, is it? I mean, I think there's been this kind of view that, well, we need to have charismatic, particularly senior leaders have got to be charismatic.

Well, why, and what does that actually mean?

Yeah, yeah.

Because actually somebody who's really, really boring but makes lots of really good decisions.

Yeah.

What does this call if we are too hierarchical, too transactional? We are trying to be this heroic leader when actually we don't need to be.

I think your point about we need to use the power of all the people around us because the world's full of ambiguity and unknowns and uncertainty and all the stuff that we know is get chucked our way. There's a different way of doing this.

Yeah, yeah. So I think it's really important that people in your team, they feel honoured and respected by you. They feel actually that they feel listened to.

And you create the environment where actually you use their ideas and you use their, their experience and their knowledge and you use that to frame, shape and make decisions and set the strategic direction. You don't have to do it all yourself.

In fact, actually if you do it all yourself, you're going to make incredibly one sided decisions and your strategy is probably going to be too narrow and not take account of all of the things that you needed to take account of because as a single human being, you're not Going to know all the answers?

No.

And I guess as we go into a world where artificial intelligence will do more of that transactional work for us, I think the role of the leader going forward is going to be much more about the humanistic nature of workplace relationships.

So I think the role of empathy, listening, collaboration, which have been undervalued for too many years, I think are going to become actually the most important thing that leaders need to demonstrate. Would you not agree?

Yeah. And I think, you know, this reconnection with, you know, so it starts with connecting with self that we said just now and then that leads on.

If you're got healthy relationship with yourself, you're more likely then to be able to connect and reconnect with those around you. So I think the best leaders show up relationally, not just operationally.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think as you said, there is too much focus sometimes on the operational stuff. And I get why there is. Yeah.

But actually if we don't show up relationally and engage in these deeper conversations like we talked about last time, have those really impactful conversations and meaningful conversations, we're not going to take our teams forward.

No team that's connected with each other, that collaborates, is connected with their leader. I mean, it's almost like stating the blindingly obvious, but they're bound to perform better.

Yeah, yeah.

You know they are.

Yeah. And they don't have to be a bunch of the most talented individuals. It's about the team, isn't it? Yeah, that's right. Yeah.

So let's overlay another disconnection on top of that then. So we've got disconnection from self, which is causing problems. We've got disconnection from other people.

Yeah, yeah.

Disconnection from complexity. Okay, so what I mean by that is I think there is an oversimplification sometimes when we make decisions.

You've alluded to the addiction to sort of KPIs and numbers and what have you. And there's quite a lot of short term thinking that goes on as well. Yeah. But you also made the point that we're at places are like systems.

They're complex organic systems and we need to think of them in those terms, make sense of them, and understand that we can't know all the answers. We have to be comfortable with not knowing stuff.

Yeah, yeah. So I'd like to bring in a metaphor here.

Yeah.

A metaphor for how we think about organizations. So I think Western society has often thought about organizations using a machine metaphor.

Yes.

So in other words, stuff comes in stuff comes out and there's all sorts of cogs and stuff in between. And people view organisations in a very mechanistic way.

Yeah, they often, when they come to introduce change into an organization or come to do some project management, they treat that in a very mechanistic way on one level, through this lens of machine as an organization that can bring benefits.

Well, you need processes for a start, don't you?

You need processes, you need procedures and you need systems and you know, so that machine metaphor is hugely helpful, but actually the metaphor of an organization as a system. And when I talk about system, I mean like the systems that we see in nature as an ecosystem, if you like.

Exactly.

So this, this highly complex interconnected set of things that actually makes the outcomes when you make a change in a system hugely unpredictable and, and difficult to understand. And often what happens is when we try to introduce a change into a system, a system naturally will revert back to what we call homeostasis.

It goes back to the state in which it was in. If you push on a system, often a system will push back.

Yeah.

And sometimes people get a little bit surprised when they try to introduce huge step changes into organizations and essentially what happens is the system pushes back and kicks them in the face and they seem surprised by it.

Yeah.

You know, so treating your organization as a system and being sensitive to how you introduce changes and to expect the unexpected in terms of how you do stuff.

And again, the role of intuition and being connected relationally to the people around you and dealing with that ambiguity, some of that deeper stuff we talked in the last podcast about, sometimes when you introduce change into organism, organization, it affects people's identity.

Yeah.

You know, so you're not just making a process or a system change.

Yeah.

You know, you're relationally changing, you're changing people's identity. So you know, that's going to be highly complex and almost impossible to predict the impact that's going to have.

So being really adaptable and flexible and intuitively connected to your system, I think is really important in the context of leadership.

Yeah.

And especially if you overlay on that this disconnection from complexity is happening in disconnected teams or disconnected leaders, that it's not going to go in any four dimension.

Okay, so I think what you're saying here is that rather than being in this kind of fog, if you like, of leadership, where, yeah, we need to create some clarity in this world of uncertainty, which means we need to be adaptive, we need to be flexible. How do we do that?

Yeah, well, I think it's important to have a mindset where you're not trying to seek certainty, you're trying to get clarity.

Yeah.

So I think often leaders make the mistake that in a highly complex, challenging environment that they need to bring certainty for themselves and for the people around them. And frankly, actually you can't do that.

It's very difficult.

We live in a highly volatile society and a highly volatile world. You cannot bring certainty. And actually you're being a bit dishonest to your people if you're promising certainty in the context of huge complexity.

So actually what you need to do is to read the system, connect with your people, use your relationships, use your intuition, and track a way of clarity through the fog and be prepared to flex and adapt.

Yeah.

I think we did a couple of podcasts recently on whole brain thinking, which I think is a great tool for using practically to try and track our way through some of this stuff.

Yeah, absolutely.

So let's move on to the next disconnection then. Disconnection from purpose and meaning.

I don't about you, but I've probably realized more as I've got older the importance of having meaning in my life and purpose in my life. That's not to say it wasn't important earlier on, but I think I've understood why it's so important as I've got older. I don't know about you.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, and this touches into what we've talked about on previous podcasts around what we call intrinsic motivation.

Yeah.

Because if we're doing work that is intrinsically meaningful and important to us and aligns with our values, and when we talk about values, what we're meaning is the things that are important to us in life and the impact we want to make on society. If the work we're doing is aligned to that, that's going to be inherently rewarding and intrinsically motivating.

And you know, that's another way when we talk about connecting with self, you know, actually connecting what you do with the work that you do and also connecting that with the organization that you choose to work with as well.

Yeah. I think I've heard you use the phrase this creates strategic drift, where we do lots but we forget why we're doing it.

Yes, yeah, yeah.

And there's been this dominance, no doubt, over sort of profitability and efficiency in the last few decades. That's definitely a thing, but that's probably been valued more than meaning.

And you talked about the importance of values and also nowadays the, the long term impact of Some of the stuff that we're deciding, I think we've got to get back to getting a better balance. So profitability and efficiency are obviously important.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But not at the expense of purpose, meaning values, long term impact.

Yeah, yeah.

So how do we get back to restoring that balance?

Well, yeah, I mean, that's a tricky question, but I would say that I think it's important for leaders to. It's part of their strategic vision.

Making as well as articulating a clear vision and strategy for their team is to articulate a clear sense of purpose and then to recruit people whose values aligned to that sense of purpose.

And I think I have a sense that the generation or the generations now coming through into the workplace, new into the workplace, maybe been in the workplace for the last 10 years or so, actually this idea of doing something meaningful and connecting with their values over profit and efficiency, it feels to me like it's become more important to this generation coming through. So leaders need to pay attention to that to be really clear what their business is about, connect that to something beyond the business.

Because I think, you know, the generations coming through are seeing the impact human beings are having on the planet, for example, and you know, understanding the impact that businesses and commerce is having on our planet and creating businesses that connect into that deeper sense of purpose and want to make an impact that changes our world, I think. As opposed to just being focused on efficiency and profitability.

Yeah, and we've got, that's why we've got to think longer term.

Yes, yeah, yeah.

I mean, to use an analogy, I know you like your analogies. Purpose in business is a bit like the GPS of leadership, isn't it?

Yeah.

If you haven't got purpose, you can go for any old direction. But is there any meaning direction you're going off in?

Yeah, that's right, yeah.

So yeah, if we get it, if we get a sense of purpose, it is like the GPS of our leadership and that people are going to want to get involved in that.

Yeah, yeah. Don't just be busy, you know, don't just do stuff.

Make sure actually you understand why you're doing what you're doing and bring again, bringing intentionality into what you're doing.

So let's pick up the final disconnection then.

So we've talked about self, we've talked about disconnection from others, we've talked about being disconnected from complexity and we've talked about being disconnected from a sense of purpose. You alluded to this in the beginning of the podcast. Disconnection from environment.

So that's about nature, it's about sustainability, it's about all of those things. And we've lived in a very short term focused world where we've focused on transactional stuff.

It's quite an extractive way of dealing with life, isn't it? Let's just consume as much as we possibly can and not worry about some of the long term impacts of that consumption.

So leaders, as you said, shouldn't forget they are part of the world around us, they are part of nature, they're not separate from it. Could you just unpack that a little bit for me?

So I think our individualistic culture has driven a system and a set of commercial practices that in extreme, and this is an extreme where you almost get the sense that everybody's in it for themselves. Okay, so it's profitability over everything else.

Yeah.

So it's only we that matter. So there's very little connection or cognizance about the impact that we're having on those around us.

And I think actually we're not separate from the cosmos, we're not separate from our planet. You know, we are an inherent part of it.

You know, some of the indigenous populations that have not lost that deeper sense of connection, you know, really care about the environment and the planet and the land and that sort of stuff. And I think we've lost some of that in western society.

So when we talk about our connected leadership model and we've got the concentric rings in our connected leadership model, so connected with self, connected with team, connected with the organization and then beyond that, connecting with, with our environment or the planet.

I think, I think bringing that bigger picture sense to our leadership and connecting what we do not just in our team, not just in our organization, but beyond and thinking of the impact beyond our organization. So you know, Zentana are about creating better leaders that create better organizations, that creates a better world.

Yeah, absolutely.

And I guess, you know, at root that might mean ultimately that we might be slightly less profitable.

In the short term.

In the short term. In the short term. But actually it's putting the impact of what we're doing on the planet above our selfish needs.

Yeah, I think everything's about balance, isn't it?

Yes, you said that before.

So we need to balance short term thinking, which we do need to do sometimes with long term thinking. We need to balance left hemisphere thinking with right hemisphere thinking. All of these things we're talking about require balance.

Yeah, you have to balance managing performance with managing relationships. Everything is about balance. But I think you're right. I think we've got out of kilter with this.

Yeah, yeah.

So I'm not suggesting organizations shouldn't make a profit and you know, because wealth can be, can bring huge benefits to society and to the planet.

But that needs to be balanced with being sensitive to the impact we're having on those around us and our planet and the impact of that on future generations.

So we need to change the narrative here because I think there has been a narrative, isn't there, for many, many years, that it's all about profit, it's all about toughing it out, it's all about focusing on your short term needs.

I mean you've got some of this stuff now where we're like, let's just retreat into our own country and don't worry about anybody else, let's worry about ourselves. But actually there's a price to pay for that type of thinking ultimately. Yeah.

So we need to think about actually a more relational focus, humanistic type of leadership, which is what we need going forward, is actually very strategic and is important for the sustainability of our systems.

I think it's very easy. I mean, let's take the current market situation as an example.

Lots of businesses are in survival mode and it's really difficult to survive in the current climate. I mean we're finding the current climate highly challenging. So that survival mode can drive very left brained thinking and very short term thinking.

Now that might be important actually to focus on some of that stuff in the short term. So I'm not suggesting don't do stuff to survive because you need to.

Yeah.

But also don't lose sight of the longer term and the bigger system and the bigger impact, potentially longer term impact that you and your business can make.

And that might mean you need to adapt your business, you might need to refocus your business. Yeah, exactly, yeah.

Because I mean there is a school of thought and I know there's a movement they call regenerative leadership and this is again it's a similar thing where you, we need to just reconnect, you know, in all of these ways we've been talking about this morning.

Yes, yeah.

To get a world which is going to, which is going to thrive in the future.

So it's been sustainable and strategic and commercial. Yeah, you know. Yeah, I think, yeah.

And relational.

And relational, yes.

So let's sort of take all this disconnection we've been talking about. Let's try and create a positive picture of the future because otherwise it all sounds a bit Doom and gloom. Yeah.

What could leadership look like in the future if reconnection becomes the goal? If we, if we sort out some of these disconnections and we reconnect, what could leadership look like going forward?

So I think a couple of things. So a leadership that doesn't over rely on left brain control. Okay.

So you know, learning to trust that healthy intuition, creating the environment where that intuition can be recognized and used in a healthy way and bringing that intuition into leadership. If you're a bit intuition averse or a bit stuck. Yeah, I mean, because you can get two extremes to that.

You can get the, the people that over rely on gut feeling in a very sort of blind, uncritical way. And you get people that, you know, fundamentally mistrust intuition because it's this invisible thing that they don't really understand.

Actually, you know, as we said, true, true intuition builds on all that tacit knowledge and experience, you know, spots the patterns, creates these hunches. And learning when to trust that I think is, is really, really important.

And also I think that the final thing I would say in terms of this wrap up is sure, do the short term stuff, you know, do what you need to do to survive, but balance that with looking to the future and understanding the impact that you're going to have long term as a business.

So I guess if I'm listening to this thinking, I get some of the concepts that you guys are talking about today. You know, am I disconnected as a leader? Am I, I mean, maybe I am. I just haven't realized that I am. Yeah.

And why have I allowed that disconnection to happen? Why have I allowed that to be my normal when actually it doesn't have to be my normal?

No, no.

If I'm a leader in inside a business, I'm thinking, well, am I connected to my team in the way that I should be? And again, why have I allowed that to happen?

Yeah, yeah.

What can I do differently? Because there is no doubt that, you know, in the future we will need, need leaders who can connect on a human level with the people around them.

And why do I have to be, as you said, go back to that starting point, the heroic leader that can do all things.

Yeah, yeah.

You don't need to be that person, do you? So any sort of closing thoughts, calls to action from you, Rich?

Just the one thing I would say, just take a few moments, whether it's in the morning, morning is a good time to do it. Just to take a moment to stop, reconnect and reflect.

And that's a good starting point. I think I'd echo that as well. Yeah.

And if you don't know whether you are disconnected, I'm sure some conversations with some people that you are close, confident with would help you realise and work that out.

Yeah.

So that's it for today.

Yeah.

Let's go and get connected to nature. I'm going to go and have a nice cup of coffee outdoors.

Yeah. All right. Thanks, Dave.

Cheers. Bye.