Summary:

Urban-rural divides dissolve when young people experience the agricultural food system firsthand. In this episode, high school educator Dan Kunanec joins host Jesse Hirsh to discuss how Don Mills Collegiate's campus farm and circular food economy are successfully growing the next generation of urban farmers, food system thinkers, and city builders.

Show notes:

Canada's agri-food sector faces an urgent demographic and labor crunch, yet the traditional pipeline of talent relies exclusively on youth migrating out of rural areas. In this episode of The Future Herd, host Jesse Hirsh sits down with Dan Kunanec, a veteran teacher at Toronto's Don Mills Collegiate, to challenge that paradigm. For 26 years, Dan has turned a high school campus into a thriving applied ecosystem featuring a 40-tree orchard, a 160-vine vineyard, an aquaponics setup, and a full kitchen. Together, they explore a radical proposition: instead of waiting for rural youth to save agriculture, we can cultivate agricultural literacy and channel urban talent back into the food system.

Central to Dan's teaching philosophy is the 'loaf of bread' metaphor, which demonstrates how a single food item can anchor a multidisciplinary curriculum spanning science, history, engineering, and community-building. Rather than forcing students through dry, abstract textbook units, Dan builds exciting, tangible projects first—such as planting rare indigenous corn seeds or harvesting produce for Michelin-recognized restaurants—and maps them back to the Ontario Green Industries curriculum. This approach treats students as active co-learners, proving that traditional classrooms can be replaced with vibrant, project-based environments where young people build real-world confidence and problem-solving skills.

The conversation also tackles the complex intersections of food security, cultural identity, and crisis response. Dan shares how the school farm pivoted during the COVID-19 pandemic to distribute nutritious meal packages to vulnerable urban families, inspiring students to pursue careers in food security and community advocacy. By leveraging urban microclimates, saving heirloom seeds, and connecting students with regenerative farmers, chefs, and craftspeople across Ontario, Dan bridges the urban-rural divide. These experiences teach students that seasonality, soil regeneration, and ecological stewardship are not distant concepts, but sensory, lived realities.

Ultimately, this episode offers an inspiring blueprint for how Canada can address its agricultural succession crisis by transforming urban schools into incubators for future food leaders. Listeners will walk away with a fresh appreciation for experiential education, the power of local food economies, and why growing farmers must begin long before young people ever step foot on a commercial farm. It is a vital conversation about finding examples of the future that are already alive and thriving in the present.

Topics: Urban Agriculture, Agri-Food Talent, Experiential Education, Circular Food Economy, Food Literacy, Regenerative Agriculture, High School Innovation

Hi, I'm Jesse Hirsh.

Welcome to the Future Herd.

I know for many of us, high school was not the peak of our social existence.

If anything, it's something that as soon as it was done,

I was ready to have behind me.

But I couldn't help imagine that if I had Dan as my high school teacher,

everything would've been different.

And today's episode not only gives us a glimpse at what could have been,

but it actually gives us a tangible example that here in the present

we're starting to see a reversal of the potential drain of talent from

rural communities to urban centres.

But instead, we could be seeing the tip of city talent flowing back into agriculture.

'cause it's not enough for farmers to grow food.

We need to be growing farmers.

And that's exactly what Dan Kunanec is doing at Don Mills Collegiate in Toronto.

He's developed an urban agriculture programme that allows high school

students to engage almost all areas of contemporary agriculture, even future

agriculture, so that they can find their place, their prosperity in an

industry that quite frankly needs them.

So this is one of those conversations that, like many future herd episodes

I absolutely loved, but it was one that really made me think of what

we could do if education really took agriculture seriously, if it really

looked at food production and food consumption as a central pillar of

what we need to be teaching kids.

And in that regard, Dan is one of those leaders that I wish

we had a whole lot more of.

And if anything, that's the point of today's episode that we can all

learn a lot from leaders like Dan.

Alright, let's listen.

Dan, welcome to the Future Herd.

Thank you very much, Jesse.

I appreciate it.

Now, uh, I start every episode with kind of the same question.

It's meant to be a kind of icebreaker, a kind of abstract,

uh, first thing that comes to mind.

What does the future mean to you?

Seeing the possibility and, the perspectives of my young students.

I, I am so excited about, I'm excited about the future because I, I'm surrounded

by young people all the time, and I, I know what they're capable of and I don't

know what they're capable of because, uh, they're gonna surprise all of us.

So I'm, I'm excited.

Right on.

And you're right.

Of all the guests we've had on the show, you've probably had the closest

proximity to the future in terms of actually being, you know, on,

on the front lines of, uh, uh, the future adults, the future responsible

members of our society, you know.

uh, it's remarkable.

It's such a privilege to be with, with this age group and just see

that they're on the cusp of things.

And also, you know, the decision makers, I remind them as they're about to graduate,

that they're about to be voters, right?

So we've gotta give them a lot of credit and, um, they're, they're

amazing in their own regard, for sure.

Right on.

Well, certainly part of what I'd love to do today is get some of your

perspective on kinda, you know, what's going on w with, uh, the younger

generation, but in particular, I did want to talk today about agriculture

and education in the urban settings.

And I kind of wanted to start, you sort of alluded to this already, you know,

the second question I'd like to ask people is kind of the origin story of the

lore, and in your case, why education?

Because, you know, as I was sort of researching you, it strikes me

you're another one of these dynamic people who probably could have gone

in a number of different directions.

What is it about education, uh, that clearly is a source

of passion and excitement.

It is, it is a source of passion, excitement for me at

this point, but it wasn't always.

Um, and I, I did do other things.

Um, uh, in fact, teaching is a job that I literally said more than

once occasions to many people.

teaching is the last job I would ever do.

Um, I was, uh, like a lot of kids that I, that I have in my classrooms,

uh, not totally enamoured with school experience, not always enamoured

with, with some of the adults that were, were the teachers in the room.

Um, and it was a room.

It was always a room and that situation, uh, now I did have some that were

just absolutely incredible and they, they kind of stayed in my life.

And, uh, I think we all have those stories where there's, there's a

couple of caring adults that get you and kind of try to get you through.

Um, but, um, no, I never wanted to be a teacher.

Um, and so I was, uh, I was successful in the design and build world quite good.

Um, it really was, uh, that moment in time where, uh, my wife and

I were about to start a family.

um, I realised that, um, I was, I was travelling a lot with my job

and, and design and construction, um, and that if I wanted to be a,

you know, the kind of father that I wanted to be, I need to be homework.

and so, you know, we looked at, okay, uh, where can we make the switch?

Um, and that's like a lot of people, you know, you make a

switch in life, but for me it was a little more challenging because,

because I was that type of student.

Um, I, I dropped out of school, so I didn't have a degree.

I started my business when I was 20, 21.

very entrepreneurial.

I just couldn't sit in a classroom.

Um, wasn't quite for me.

Um, I've taken lots of college, university courses, but, but I don't have a degree.

So that was, that was limiting.

Um, as far as, uh, doing a job that was a grownup job.

Um, and so at that time in the, the mid nineties, uh, my options were, uh, police

officer, firefighter, and, um, a be begrudgingly teacher, uh, but specifically

a technological studies teacher.

you think about, you know, if, if, uh, you're an Ontario kid or people

across the country, you're your shop teachers, your drafting teachers, your

auto shop teachers, all that stuff.

So in Ontario specifically, especially, uh, in the nineties, the work experience

you had in the field qualified you to be accepted to a teaching faculty.

And then you still went back to university and spent that

year, um, learning how to teach.

Um, but the assumption was that you were considered an expert in your field.

so, um, some of my great teachers, um, and my wife, uh, convinced me to go for it.

And, uh, I, I went for it.

Um, I didn't think I'd like it.

Uh, but from day one, I was completely smitten with the possibilities, with

the attitudes of, of the students, um, with their potential and the fact that

I, I could build something from scratch allowed students to, um, show who they

are and how brilliant they actually are.

Maybe they're not successful in other classes, but do

something awesome together.

Um, and, and that, uh, once, once I, I got over myself, um, I, I

realised that I was, you know, one of the luckiest people that I knew.

So, yeah.

Well, I, I'd love for you to unpack, uh, unpack some of that, you know,

uh, especially the kind of applied stuff.

'cause I, I'm similar.

I mean, I, I, I think I, I, I got through high school, partly

through extracurricular activities.

Like it was the non-school stuff that kind of kept me engaged and I

didn't get a bachelor's degree, partly 'cause I, I wanted to be in the world.

I wanted to build stuff I would've loved at my high school for there to

have been someone like you where it, it's about projects, it's about, you

know, collaboration and team building and, and doing things with your hands.

Obviously we're gonna talk about farming and the on school farm,

but were there stuff before that?

Can you gimme examples of some of the projects that you used to get

kids rallying around, you know, in, in some of the earlier days of,

in, in my view, changing education, changing the high school experience.

Um, yeah, I've been, I've been at this school for 26 years, so,

um, you know, I went right from the design build world into this space, and

I knew I wanted to stay here I was either fired or the, or, or I retire here.

Um, um, but from day one it was about, about the doing,

it was about the creation.

So I got an old shop that was pretty beat up and, uh, was pretty messy,

um, and, you know, refurbished that.

Um, it was very, it was very hands-on.

And I realised the projects that, that we wanted to do was really to, um, improve

the, the nature of the site itself.

So we call it the campus.

So a guy that's not a university guy who likes to use the university world word.

And, uh, the campus kind of implies that that learning is not just about the room.

Um, the learning environments should be the property and it

should feel like it's engaging.

And when you have moments to sit and be, or walk and talk or loiter in a

positive, engaging way that you're always learning, this is a place of learning.

and so, uh, I work at Don Mill ci, but we're also attached physically,

literally to our middle school.

So it's, it's a special building.

so we have grade sixes right through grade 12, but I teach in the high

school side, even though I'm physically squatting in the middle school side.

So we're very integrated.

but we realised that every project we wanted to do was to make

things better for our community.

really became an important, uh, catchphrase for everything we did.

Um, community would just either expand or contract, it would be more

specific or more, uh, wide ranging.

And then we also really wanted to look at legacy.

How do you make things better for the next people that, that come up?

So my dad always taught me major, major influence in my life.

Um, leave it better than you found it, right?

So if you, if you do that, if that's your goal, then you

know, how, how can you go wrong?

Uh, even if it's an inch forward.

but over 26 years we've really tried to take.

That leave it better than you found it.

And the legacy piece and the community building also, um, a sense of wellness,

um, um, which is maybe overused as a word.

Um, and then the other overused word is, is, is greening.

So do we improve the environment and get people outside more

and make things better?

So all of the projects that we've done have, have been that way.

We started with, uh, an interior, uh, courtyard pond and a landscaping area.

Uh, learned a lot from that.

Went into things like aquaponics in the building, um, looked at

where we could start raising food.

when I was first teaching, it was technological design then the green

industry's curriculum was introduced and we jumped on that 'cause we

were kind of doing it anyway.

Um, and then eventually hospitality, a forestry.

We, we've planted so many trees, like 175 trees this site.

It was already a well tree site before, improving the biodiversity pathways,

shade, outdoor seating areas, you name it.

Not just for the students, but also the community at large.

We kind of treat it like it's a park people will come and bring

their dogs and walk and And we

Right on.

it.

Well, you know, on the one hand, this is a key insight, I think, for

school boards anywhere that to hire people who were previously in the trades or in

the building industry as teachers, gives you the bonus side effect of upgrading

your infrastructure from the inside out.

I mean, that in and of itself sounds fantastic.

Let, let me ask you a, as a digression, a kind of technical question.

And, and I say this because I, I grew up in Toronto.

I went to high school in Toronto, and when I was in high school,

Excellent.

institutes were kind of streamed away from shops.

Like I regret that I went to a collegiate institute and didn't have access to

shops, didn't get access to going into a, a, a trade or an apprentice stream.

That's changed.

Can you give me a sense in the time that you've been there, how, or if John

Mills Collegiate kind of shifted from a kind of academic focus to, to your

point, more well-rounded and, and more rooted in the community as a whole?

Um, such a good question.

And, um, the shift has been more about, um, the, the hands-on

becoming part of academics, um, understood that it's not exclusive.

Understood that students that maybe have an academic focus can

benefit from these experiences.

so experiencing history from a hands-on, actual point of view, but at the

same time, you know, the traditional, um, technological courses also

expanding them into an academic area.

So our hospitality and tourism students obviously focusing on food,

but now it's, um, you know, cultures of the world, historical breads.

Um, where did that all come from?

So one of, one of the things that I always talk about that my programme, if anything,

is inspired by a loaf of bread, right?

So, um, how a loaf of bread, this is so good.

How, how do we make a loaf of bread?

Okay, ev every step of how do we make a loaf of bread, right?

So getting the recipe, but also learning that we have to

have a certain type of grain.

Where do we get the seed collecting the seed?

Um, can we, can we get it from last year's crops?

Uh, do we know elders in the community that know how to do that?

Uh, who are the farmers that can help us?

How do we grow our own?

How do we, how do we cultivate the lands?

How do we, how do we irrigate?

Uh, what are all the skills necessary for that?

Um, understanding weather patterns, understanding climate, climate

change, climate change, mitigation, growing zones, biodiversity, all

those sciences that come into play.

And then, you know, raising it and doing well with it, and then harvesting it.

And then what do we do now?

How do we dry it?

Well, how do we mill the weed?

We have to make a mill.

You know, like, how do we, how do we mill that?

Um, okay, how do we store it?

What are all the storage containers and, and the pottery and the, and

the glass needs and the, the storage, and how do we do a cold cellar?

And, and so on and so forth.

But, oh, we're going to make the loaf of bread.

Now, okay, the recipe.

Let's get, oh, we need an oven.

Well, how do we make an oven?

What are the steps involved in making an a, a wood-fired oven?

What cultures have used wood-fired ovens in history?

Is it important?

Um, how do they store their stuff?

Um, what did your cultures do?

Uh, we have the most multicultural school, I think, in the city.

Uh, maybe, maybe in Canada.

What does that put us in the world?

I don't know.

But all these, these students have stories about, you know, where

they come from and the breads and the doughs and the dumplings.

And, and so, so you, you make it.

Um, what are we gonna have with it?

What are the preserves, the fruit trees, the orchard, um, you know,

the, the, the, is it a pancake, the maple syrup that we make?

What are the traditions there?

Where are the indigenous traditions?

Um, on and on goes.

And then the whole point is to, we have to share it.

Well then let's, let's build a space.

Um, let's make our, our benches.

Let's make our tables, let's make it comfortable and let's the loaf

so that when we're sharing the loaf, someone says, this is good.

How do you make a loaf for bread?

And on it goes, right?

So that's a long-winded, all my, all my descriptions are long-winded.

That's, I guess that's why I'm a teacher.

But, but that was fantastic and it was fantastic because you were

on the one hand hitting the questions you'd expect, but you were also

inserting like a really good teacher.

Some of the questions that make you think, some of the questions that make

you take for think about what you take for granted, think about what you don't know.

I, I'm, I'm fascinated on a curriculum level.

How did you get to where you are today?

And, and I say this 'cause what you just described was very

well thought out, very smooth.

There is a, a kind of cliche, certainly within the agricultural industry

that people who live in cities don't know where their food comes from.

You're obviously proven that wrong.

Your students are proven that wrong.

What has it been like to develop this kind of curriculum?

Has it been all support?

Have you had naysayers?

Uh, give me a sense of what the journey has been to kind of where

now you seem to be really running, all running on all cylinders.

Well, uh, to be fair, the, the curriculum exists.

So curriculum like the Green Industries is a course.

It was released 2009.

Um, we knew it was coming 2008.

but curriculum like curriculum's actually as dry as it is to read and to follow.

It's very generous and it's very open.

So like, um, you know, how are plants affected by biotic and abiotic factors?

You know, that's, that's pretty wide ranging.

Um, you can do a lot with that, or it could be very boring the way you do it.

Um, and so how I approach things is come up with a cool idea that I hope is cool.

I, I think is cool.

Um, and then I look at the curriculum and see what we're checking off.

To do it in a reverse fashion is just mind boggling and

there's nothing exciting there.

Um, and then there's bound to be some steps in the curriculum that I'm like,

Ooh, this one doesn't cover that.

Oh, I know what I can do.

And so you expand it out to cover that, and then it goes down another tangent.

and then, you know, I talk about it with the students.

Um, does this sound like something cool?

Um, or often the idea comes from the students, you know, the, oh,

wouldn't it be great if we could?

like, that sounds amazing.

Um, you know, the invariably the question would be the students would

be like, well, how do we do that?

And I have no idea.

Let's figure it out.

Let's figure it out together.

that's a really important part of my teaching.

My kids know that.

I don't know.

Um, and it's important that I share that out front.

And there's some things that I might know a little bit about.

I can, I can bring that in or I'm gonna bring the experts in, and

that's a big part of, of what I do.

So I'm not the sage on the stage by any means.

Um, I'm learning with them.

Um, and as long as we're all excited together, then I, you

know, good things are gonna happen.

So, um, but the curriculum is, exists.

So any, any school, any high school in Ontario, um, access to the curriculum.

So whether or not they have a champion in their building that has the skill sets

and the interest, and if those champions have the champions in the admin that say,

yeah, this is cool, we could do this.

Um, and then of course the kids have to, uh, select it because

all of my courses are elective.

So, that means I need to excite other people that haven't taken it yet, um,

and, and get them to want to take it.

And so obviously all the stuff we have around helps with that.

Um, but at the same time, I know that when a kid takes a

course, they want to be there.

And so now it's my job to make sure they, they made a good choice.

Um, and then there occasionally there's some kids that are, are,

are put in because of scheduling conflicts or needs somewhere to

make sure their schedule's full.

And those are the kids that I really wanna make sure that sure that

they now enjoy where they landed.

Um, and so, you know, all of that matters.

Um, but to your original point, yeah, it's true.

A lot of it's not It's like people don't know where the food comes from.

Um, and it's not just an urban scenario, but it is more urban for sure.

So understanding where food comes from, food literacy, understanding

food security, um, uh, what are the issues in the community around food?

Uh, what are the cultural issues, but also seasonality.

Um, why are you trying to buy that product you know, the winter when

it's not really a fresh product?

And what are the implications of buying that product that comes from 2000 miles

away is shipped over and all the pollution And when that product arrives, it's

not really good anyway, nutritionally, flavour wise, what are the other options?

Can we do preserves from the year before?

Or what can we grow indoors?

Um, and so we're doing traditional growing techniques, but also a lot

of newer age, uh, indoor techniques that are influenced by those as well.

So yeah, that food literacy and where your food comes from,

that's, that's a big part of it.

Well, and, and I'd love for you to elaborate on that

literacy piece and, and maybe loop it back to your point about excitement.

'cause 'cause I was gonna ask about whether these were electives or,

or whether we're seeing sort of greater integration in terms of the

core of what people are expected.

But I I, from the sounds of it, I'm guessing that you, you don't have any

issues with signups that, you know, part of your engagement with the community,

your engagement with the campus is its own kind of engine of excitement.

But a again, I'd love for you to unpack, 'cause the other angle to this is it feels

as if there's an cumulative literacy.

'cause even if you're in grade six or in grade nine and they haven't

taken one of your courses yet, I'm assuming they're seeing the activity,

they're seeing the facilities, their curiosity is being peaked.

Right, right, right.

Yeah.

We're very, um, we're very obvious.

Um, having said that, I've had a few colleagues that will come to this

end of the building, um, because the high school's at the other end of the

building, and, uh, they'll have been in the building for 6, 7, 8 years and

they'll go, I didn't know we had a farm.

but the kids know, they're very aware of it.

So yeah, we're doing more and more with signage.

Um, we, we have a lot of the middle school kids, their teachers will kind of do like

an in school field trip, um, or they're doing a unit and they can come visit

the aquaponic system or the greenhouse.

And it starts with that.

It's like the, what classes do you teach?

You know, like, what course is this?

When can I take it?

Um, I have a lot of, like, we just went through commencement and, know, it's

one of my, my favourite yet saddest days of the year because you see the

grade twelves walking across the stage and they're off to do amazing things,

and you know, they are, and they're excited um, but you also remember

them when you met them in grade six.

So that's the other advantage, right.

So because I'm, I am in the middle school side, I'm back and forth

between the play area all the time, um, going to the farm and sometimes

they'll like, can I go see the farm?

It's like, yeah, it's your lunchtime.

Let's go in there.

It's fine.

Or the ball gets kicked in and like, well, you're in there.

Look around, you know?

Um, so the conversations start in grade six and, and whether they take my class

or not, they're learning from the space.

And that's just as important to me as if they're in my class, because not everyone

can take everything they want to take it.

It, there's, it's limited time.

So when a kid is able to manage, um, all the things they must take and find room

to take something that they want to take with me, man, I better live up to that.

Um, because, you know, it, it, it, it really takes a lot.

And I know, you know, their caregivers at home are part of that decision.

It's like, yeah, let's shuffle things around.

Let's figure it out.

And they may not go into farming, but whatever job they go into, they have

an appreciation for what we've done.

Um, know, if they become a CEO of a major corporation, they have an eye

towards what community needs are.

Um, if they are a plumber, um, they understand that what they do can affect

how somebody eats healthy food or not.

so all those things matter.

The sociologists, the, you know, the environmental gurus, uh, going off

and doing great things, the people in hospitality, the architects, the

urban designers and urban planners, the business people, the marketers, and

all of my students go through all that.

They're in all the trades.

They're police officers, they're, they're lawyers, they're

doctors, they're engineers.

And um, but some of them are getting into farming and some of them are, are

getting into those hospitality pieces and.

know, for them to have experienced that as a grade 6, 7, 8, and then

actually dive in as a 9, 10, 11, 12.

then I'm in the space when I see the kid go, oh, I know what I want to do.

Like literally that happens more often than people realise.

Like it's, it's like ding, you know, cartoon sound and, um, you

could just see it and they're like, oh, I know what I want to do.

Like, and

Well.

niche, which is really cool.

Well, and let me, let me ask you to elaborate on that, because

you know, on the one hand, I, I, I wanted to ask you about alumni and

you're, you're sort of getting into that and the extent to which are,

do these kids keep keep in touch?

Do they come back and visit?

segue guy, Jesse.

I'm, I'm

Totally.

that's

Absolutely.

But, but you raised a really crucial point that, that I wanna elevate and,

and have you unpack further, which is historically, we've all talked about

the migration of talent from rural communities to cities, but agriculture

is becoming high tech, and greenhouses, for example, and Leamington, Ontario.

I mean, these are really high tech, advanced industries.

There needs to be the opposite.

There needs to be people in cities going into agricultural communities and bringing

their expertise, bringing their culture.

Are you seeing that?

Are, are you in the, the, the front lines of facilitating that?

Yeah, I mean, listen, I can't bring my, all of my

students on field trips all the time, but I, I can get out there.

Um, and, um, you know, we do a lot of grant writing, uh, grant proposals.

Uh, a lot of it's for the students involved, but sometimes it, it can't

be with all the students, but I will dedicate some time every year

and get some grant money to do so, and coverage and things like that.

Um, and go, and I've, I've, I've spent days in Leamington and Ley Island.

I've spent days out in, uh, LAN Ark and, um, Wolf Island.

Um, I've spent days, uh, in, in Grey County.

Um, I've spent days in Niagara region and I bring that back to the classroom.

Not only do I bring that back, but the connections that I make, the

people that I meet, um, you know, the restaurant tours of, you know, Michelin

recognised or starred restaurants and then their suppliers, uh, be it

farmers, but also people like iron workers and potters and glass makers.

So all these different trades that kids can get into as well, and crafts.

Um, but I bring that back into the classroom and sometimes people come

to visit, there are, you know, it's professional development for me.

I can see where it is.

They learn about the stuff that we're currently installing a kitchen, and

it's taken only eight years to complete.

Um, and, you know, uh, that's, no, that's not a shot at the school board.

Um, anyway, but, but we do it.

And so I can bring that in and they're real world people.

And meanwhile, my students are doing research on these people.

So we're not doing textbook work, right?

So when I'm away, they're researching the people that I'm visiting.

These are real people.

And so I come back and the kids have questions for the real people that

I can then ask the real people, they email me while I'm there and I'm

like, oh, I just got this cool email.

Uh, one of my students wants to know about the, the kiln, know, and how,

you know, did you get into this?

it's real people across the province who are amazing and the network that

you build and, um, you learn things.

It's, it's almost like I feel like I'm on a, on a kid's television show a lot

where I'm just like, this is so cool.

could do this for a job.

It's so cool.

And then the kids get that too, and they're like, well, how do I do that?

know?

and it's like, can, do you want the email?

I can set you up, you know, and then there's a real adult and a real place

who's saying, yeah, you can do this.

It's pretty cool.

So,

Well, and,

and,

and you've touched upon,

smart.

well, and I think you've touched upon a, a really interesting

self-evident, but often overlooked kind of truth of the AgriFood industry, which

it's the, the doors are wide open, like it is a remarkably accessible industry.

There, there is a real need for talent, for labour, for ideas.

And that's why part of what we do on this podcast is try to get people in

cities to kind of realise, hey, there's an exciting industry here, but I'm not

gonna lie, I, I'm pretty jealous of you and, and the experiences you get to have.

I, I think I'm more jealous of your students, that this sounds to me like,

uh, the ideal high school experience.

Uh, you mentioned the kitchen.

I, I would love for you both to elaborate on kind of what you want to

do with the kitchen, but to even go further, one of the things that comes

up in our conversations is this idea of the circular food economy, right?

That you alluded to it.

There's the growing the stuff, there's the eating, the stuff, but then there's

the waste and maybe the compost.

To what extent are you able to engage in, in different aspects of that cycle,

uh, given that you have the campus and the given that you have, you know,

young, curious, engaged, young, uh, young, curious, and engaged people.

Yeah, absolutely.

And, uh, just your, to your first point, um, of the things I love about, um,

the agri industry is that people share.

Right.

Like there's other industries, other pursuits where people kind

of hide their stuff and keep it in.

Um, but the networking that we're talking about and, and, and then also hospitality,

especially at, at the higher level as far as like the ones that are really crushing

it, people share and they're excited to share, and everyone wants everyone else

to be better because we recognise if we're all better, we're all better, right?

So, um, so that's, that's where that works.

And, and, and this podcast and what you do is an example of that.

You, you ask someone, they're like, yeah, that's great.

Let's do that.

so, uh, back to the, to the, the circular situation.

So, so we we're, we've got this kitchen, right?

Like to grow the food on its own isn't, know, enough.

So the kids need to experience the food and the produce in a different way.

in the summer, um, we, we sell our produce to a Michelin recognised restaurant, and

that money comes back to our programme.

It allows us to do things like the purchase and instal

the, the wood-fired oven.

So that itself is, is circular.

But, um, and, and then, and then September to June, the students in the hospitality

classes use the produce, right?

So, um, but what's really interesting is, you know, we've, we've got the tech design

kids designing the space, um, writing the grant proposals, getting the money,

um, building the space, and we're ready.

The green industry's kids understand what the space is gonna be.

They're planning for the space, what's gonna be planted seasonally, rotating

crops, um, they plant it, and then they manage it, and then they harvest it.

Or the hospitality kids are out there looking at what's coming in, what

seasonality they're planning for the use.

They may be harvesting it and they're preparing it to, to

present and share, or they eat it themselves, et cetera, et cetera.

Or they make preserves and it goes on.

But, but the green industries kids in the trimming and the pruning are

composting, um, the hospitality kids with any waste stems, roots leaves

that aren't being used, although we're, we're pretty good at using to

stem, um, that goes in the compost.

so, and the green industries kids, or the hospitality kids now are being,

they're like, oh, look at this tomato.

is of all the varieties, I like this one the most.

And this tomato on the vine is the best one.

I'm going to collect the seed, put it aside, label it for the green

industries kids to store so that next year they can grow a better tomato.

Wow.

72 varieties of tomatoes this year, you know, and so the

hospitalities are tasting them, they're understanding what the difference is.

The greens are tasting them too.

The tech designs are tasting them too.

Like everyone has their little piece.

And, and some of those same students will take more than one of those courses.

And so they're doing a deeper dive into different parts.

we all understand we're composting.

Nothing goes to waste.

Uh, we all understand we're looking for the best product.

We all understand.

We're trying to make it better for next year.

We all understand it's soil regeneration.

We all understand the use of worm castings.

We we're like, our soil gets better every year.

And you've mentioned that you've gotta farm.

You know what that means?

Not all farming practise does that and hasn't for a long time.

Really good Traditional farming practises do, um, local indigenous farming practises

do, not everything's regenerative.

Um, and speaking of that, about your farm.

I mean, I.

like what are you, what are you.

Uh, let me say thank you 'cause you are the first guest

on the podcast to flip it around and ask me, even though I've

invited everyone to do the same.

Uh, you asked that you, you are the segue man.

'cause you asked that question at exactly the right point to throw the mic over.

I'm fascinated by the regenerative side.

I mean, I, you know, part of my story is I, I was, I grew up in Toronto,

spent most of my life in Toronto.

Uh, about 10 years ago.

I, I felt I was being priced outta the city that for the price of a one

condo, uh, one bedroom condo downtown, I could get a farm in Eastern Ontario.

So I thought, okay, great, I'm getting the farm, but the whole

reason I could get the farm exactly.

We, we flip it the other way around.

You know, the whole reason I was able to afford the farm was 'cause it's

been abandoned for decades, right.

And here on the edge of the Canadian Shield, people thought they could

farm in the conventional sense, but all they found were rocks.

So there's piles and piles of rocks where, you know, they couldn't do

the ploughing and the, you know, uh, uh, a large scale industrial.

So our approach was to start with animals, to start with poop,

to look at soil regeneration.

You know, we started with goats who could clear and get the brush back.

Then we moved, uh, to pigs and, uh, we had a cow for a couple of years.

So we're, now, we have an orchard and we have a, a kind of market

garden space that we're expanding.

But I kind of argue it's a knowledge farm in that really, like you, I love

to learn and I love to build this stuff.

You know, we, we are creating now products and certainly our pigs and our

pork are starting to get to the point that, you know, maybe a year from now

we'll be bringing them to the abattoir.

Um, but it is fundamentally about soil and making soil and creating a environment

that allows food to grow while me as a city kid, am learning this stuff and,

and creating an environment where I can learn as much as possible so that

at first I can get really tasty food.

And then we've been sharing that food with our friends and family.

And then eventually, I, I don't even think we'll sell commodities.

I think to your point of the kitchen, we'll process food,

we'll make sandwiches, we'll make pickles, we'll make fermented foods.

'cause that's not just where the fun is.

But I think where, where, where the value is.

Yeah.

And that's, and, and that's what you are about.

Like, that's like, so, and I think that's the students in my classes will figure

out they're more interested in this part or this part, or they see value

in this, or they're excited about this.

And that's, that's the moment, right?

It's like we're all experiencing all of this.

Like we're all in the orchard, we're all in the vineyard, we're

all in the indigenous mound gardens.

We've got mushrooms growing outside, mushrooms inside, greenhouse, aquaponics,

kitchen, outdoor kitchen, indoor kitchen.

What excites you?

Which part?

Is it all of it?

Or is it, is it the general?

Um, are you hospitality?

Are you farming?

Are you urban planning?

Are you forestry?

Um, are you about the food?

Are you about the front of the house, the back of the house?

Are you behind the back of the house?

Right?

Like, who, who are you?

What gets you excited?

Or is it a combination of the above?

And so

And, and.

through that process, that that's very much

what my students go through.

And, and let me go back to something you said earlier, which, which

you just reminded me of, because obviously one of the things I miss about Toronto

is the incredible diversity of cultures, especially when it comes to food, right?

I've, I've had the best meals of my life in Toronto, even though I have

travelled, uh, uh, many places elsewhere.

Obviously the benefit of of Don Mills, uh, collegiate is, as you mentioned,

you have a very diverse student body.

To what extent are your students bringing their own cultures?

They bringing their own approaches to food or to growing food that helps even

further kind of diversify and expand, uh, what you're doing on the campus.

Well, I, I think conversations around food are some of

the easiest, most open conversations to have, for adults and for students.

Um, you know, especially when it, it ties into, you know, I'll tell a story about

this is how my mom, you know, makes, uh, sauerkraut or kaputo, I'm Ukrainian.

Um, this is, you know, and how important it was for their survival on the farm.

And, and, you know, in those harsh Manitoba winters or, you know, stories

my dad had about, um, in Saskatchewan, again, Ukrainian farming family.

And, uh, you know, it dawned on me at one point, uh, dad,

you were born in 1932, right?

And he's like, yeah.

I'm like, that was the dust bowl in the prairies followed by the depression.

Yep.

I'm like, how come we haven't talked about that?

He's like, uh, we were happy.

Like what?

he, he tell these stories and it's like, the struggles, and then the kids in, in

the space are like, well, my grandfather told me a story about my grandmother.

But like the, start to appreciate like peasant foods, the foods

that were the most necessary to survive are the favourites.

And then it turns into, oh, we make something similar to

that, but we don't use that.

We use this.

what's that flavour?

Oh, I love that.

Have you been to this restaurant?

Like, I'm a Scarborough kid.

So like, oh my God, the food we can eat.

but then they really just start to open up and they starting to talk about it.

And then it's like, my mom grows this.

Uh, would you like some seeds?

And all of a sudden these kids are bringing seeds in and so we'll create,

you know, a, a place to grow that stuff.

And then mom comes in, or like, we're in the vineyards and it's

just the most ridiculous thing for a high school teacher to say.

But anyway, um, you know, we're in the vineyard and it's like,

oh, my, my grandfather, um, used to, uh, you know, back home.

Um, and I'm like, what, what kind of grapes did they grow?

I don't know.

I should ask.

I'm like, call 'em.

You know, we're not supposed to have phones in class.

I'm like, call 'em now.

Call 'em FaceTime 'em, show 'em you're in the vineyard ask, your teacher wants to

know what varieties of grapes you grew.

Like those are those connections.

you know, and talk to your grandparents.

Talk to your aunts and your uncles.

your mom, mom's gonna call her mom.

You know, all that stuff.

So the favourite foods, the ways of doing, everyone has a farmer in

their background, or multiple, or builders or growers or cooks or chefs.

And everyone's grandmother makes the best whatever better than yours.

Okay.

Right.

And it's just, it's, it's so easy.

Like it's not, that doesn't make me smart.

like, what's the easiest thing to talk about?

Let's do that, you know?

Well, it certainly makes you wealthy in, in the food and culture sense

though, and it, it, it kind of leads to a, a, a question back to the literacy piece.

Does I have to assume, and, and, and I'd love for you to, to, to either validate

or even elaborate on this, that the other effect of the literacy building

for the students and, and ostensibly for their families is it becomes easier

for them to navigate the grocery store.

It becomes easier for them to navigate the food choices that a

city offers, both good and bad in terms of healthy food and junk food.

I, I'd love for you to elaborate on or expand on that because again, that that's

something we kind of take for granted as a life skill, but it's often not

taught and yet you're not just teaching it, you're kind of spreading it as a

virus amongst these kids as a passion.

Yeah, I think, I mean, you know, it's okay, let's, we have

snack programmes in schools, right?

Um, uh, you know, there's this one little cracker that everyone seems to be loving.

I love it too.

And, um, you know, I keep hearing about the kids going home and saying,

oh, I really like this cracker, right?

So they're gonna look for it in the store.

if my students are tasting a cherry tomato right off the vine, um, and

it's an experience they haven't had before, and it's way better than

the one they got from Mexico or California, they're understanding why.

And so, you know, that's creating a scenario where they're not only

shopping with, you know, a caregiver, but maybe they're reading the labels.

You know, oh, this one's, this one's from Kingsville, this one's from

Lemington, this one's from Quebec.

Okay.

but now they're starting to understand that, um, and then they're understanding

the value, the price of things.

And that's sometimes it's a misconception that healthier food is more expensive.

it's not necessarily so, I mean, sometimes it is, yeah, for sure.

Things that are labelled organic, you know, because they are certified organic,

it doesn't mean that something that's not certified organic isn't organic.

As we know as growers, there's hoops to jump through.

mean, all of our stuff is organic, but we can't it organic because

we don't have the certification.

but they start to understand options and choices, but also seasonality.

It's like, well of course that's more expensive because we have

to get it from somewhere else.

Or now they're understanding the benefits of green housing our

Ontario Green housing is just getting better and better and better.

And you can get a non-seasonal tomato.

It's like, this is actually a good tomato.

Like, all those things matter, right?

So I'll give you an example.

during COVID, we all remember that.

Um, obviously it's going to affect a lot of things in the school.

For me, it's like, okay, I don't have support in the farm.

I need to get permission to run the farm.

We've got stuff in the greenhouse, it's ready to go.

'cause March, remember March 12th, 13th, everything shuts down all of

our seedlings in the gran greenhouse.

Um, destined to be sold as produce to the restaurants that are all closing down.

And within two, three days, got the chef saying, we're not buying.

Everything's shut down.

And I've got, I need to get in there 'cause I need to grow

the food for what purpose?

I don't know yet, but we're going to do that.

and getting all those permissions and, and then farmers being declared,

you know, essential services and that got expanded to urban farmers.

So that's how I got through.

Um, and then you think about all the people that lost their jobs

overnight because they just.

Because the business are closing down and they don't have a job.

So we have a, you know, a lot of students whose, whose parents

caregivers lost their jobs overnight.

And so now they're suddenly in dire straits.

They're, you know, they're already living paycheck to paycheck now like, that's it.

Three days.

Their cupboards are bare.

And so, you know, our guidance people are men knows these families.

And I get the call my principal's like, can you the farm and get food out to

some of our families that really need it?

I'm like, done.

my purpose.

Like, that's, that's a no-brainer.

And so I call up chef friends and the people we sell to and

let them know the scenario.

Like, we've got stuff in the pantry we're not gonna use.

We've got fresh food that has no purpose right now.

We're going to cook it down, we're gonna make casserole, we're gonna

make soups, we're gonna freeze it.

Do you have freezer storage?

Uh, yes I do.

We've got freezers in the building.

I'll pull 'em all into the cafeteria.

So I'm back at the school, like on and on and on.

So we have families that were getting the food weekly.

Our hall monitor came in and helped.

He's dropping off the food exchanges in the parking lot.

I'm labelling stuff.

It's going out there.

I start putting recipes in things you can make with what we goal is to have,

so the goal is, uh, 27 items every time.

So that every meal, if you did have a breakfast, lunch, dinner,

if you did, there was one thing that could have come from the farm

to affect it, or a meal was ready.

That was my goal.

And it could be herbs, it could be fruit, it could be whatever it was or something

from the chefs that was already made.

A year and a half after COVID was done and we kind of got back to normal

and the kids were back in the class I didn't know who, I didn't know

who the families were by the way.

Right.

So, complete privacy.

My home monitor did, 'cause he's dropping stuff off.

All we knew is like, family of five has allergies to this or,

you know, no pork or whatever.

Um, one of the students is in my class and lets me know that this was one of the

students and parent teacher interview.

Her mom comes in with her she said that experienced changed how we eat.

We ate better during that time than we normally did.

And once we can get shopping, we realised it was actually

in many ways more affordable.

it's, it's affected the way we do things.

And that student, became a social worker with a focus on food security the city,

Far out.

from tragedy comes that,

Yeah.

the, the experience of healthy food and, and the

joy it can bring to your life.

I'm not saying everyone can afford it, I'm not saying that at all.

I'm not saying it, but if you can and if, if, if, if you can figure it out,

it does make a distinct difference and it will for a very long time.

So now we're talking legacy piece with that student who is positively

affecting other families because of that experience that they had that

could have been more tragic than it was.

Well, and it, and an absolutely fantastic story.

And, and to your point, reinforces the potential of the kind of each one

teach one that if you really reach somebody, they then become the teacher,

the, the mobilizer of that knowledge.

I, I, I wanna double down on something you said there and, and you said

it earlier, which is seasonality.

And, you know, seasonality is, is one of those things that

for farmers it's self-evident.

We live by it.

We, we, our lives literally go with, with the growing season.

But to your point, a lot of eaters, right?

A lot of people who eat food, you know, maybe don't understand seasonality.

And granted if you're rich, who cares?

But most people are not.

And, and they do struggle with increasing food prices.

How do you frame seasonality in terms of your students' experience?

And I mean that both on the production side and granted greenhouses are

popular for exactly that reason.

But I also mean on the food making side, 'cause you've

talked about preserves, right?

We've brought up pickles there, there's, there's opportunities once you

have that literacy to align yourself with that seasonality, eat good food

when you want to eat good food and not break the bank at the same time.

I, I'd love to hear as an educator, kind of how you tackle that and,

and how you kind of foster the, the value that seasonality can provide.

First, the easiest part is we experience it.

I mean, you know, we're, we're outside, um, and, um, you know,

we dress for the outdoors.

Math class is not affected by the weather.

Um, but, but we are, um, and, uh, sometimes the weather is not

cooperative and too, too bad.

Um, we, you know, you need to be ready for that.

So that can kind of separate some of my students a little bit pretty quickly too.

So, um, but also it's like, what's, what's on the vine?

You know, what looks ready?

Um, um, what is sprouting?

Um, can we, can we eat a sprout of that?

What does that taste like?

what are the things that we could do with this?

So the hospitality's experiencing like horse radish leaves sprouting

out of the ground and tasting that.

Does that remind you of, like, then the willingness to do it?

They don't do it right away in grade 11 or 10, but by grade 12, they're,

they're pretty, pretty brave.

and so like what, what else do you notice is growing at this time?

look, there's chives coming through the snow, right?

One of the first things that we have, um, we have a poly tunnels,

uh, the, like a hoop house.

So we can, we can extend our growing season so we can get some stuff in

there before we can get it out there.

But it also means, you know, we've gotta get the compost layered.

We've, we've gotta get the worm castings layered in there first.

And so it's like, we've got two weeks to prepare this.

We've got one week here.

I know the weather's bad, we gotta gotta get that done.

the, the orchard, when, when it's dormant.

So everyone's like, oh, you can only really work when it's

nice out or spring or summer.

It's like, we got so much winter work, it's not even funny.

Right?

Pruning the vineyard, watching the first leaves come out.

it's all those things.

It's, it, it's a, it's a, it's completely experiential learning.

And once you learn it, once you, you know it, right?

Um, maple syrup is one of our best things that we do.

And, and it starts and we're preparing for it when it's the deepest,

darkest throws of winter and the kids are excited about it, right?

And so it's like they're watching the weather patterns.

They're, they're understanding the ebbs and flows quite

literally of how SAP runs or not.

Um, and they're identifying when we should tap the trees, um, and all the

equipment and all the stuff and, and the older stories about, you know, especially

connections to, in indigenous practises.

You know, here's, here's one of the great gifts that local indigenous peoples,

you know, gave to, to settlers and, and, and this is liquid gold, like literally

one of the best flavours that exists.

So all of those little details, but it's tasting the seasonality.

what that does is it puts you in a place, in a time with a mood and a

feeling and a smell of the outside and a temperature and some drizzle on your

hair, or, you know, some cold on your neck or the sun's on your neck and it's

bright and you remember that moment.

It's sensory memories, right?

You're smelling that herb for the first time.

Oh, my mom cooks with this.

What is this?

And they, you know, the kids are deciding and trying to

explain, oh, I know what that is.

Um, they remember it 'cause they experienced in grade 11 and then grade 12.

They're like, I, I think the, uh, I think the chives gonna be coming out pretty

soon, sir. can I go look for the chives?

Yeah, you can go look for the chives.

Let me know.

Right on.

Now to your point, I, I, you're probably the first, while I've known a lot of

Toronto Gardeners, you, you're certainly the first Toronto farmer, uh, uh, that

I've had the privilege to speak with.

And by the sounds of it, you've certainly been at it for a number of years.

You've mentioned climate a number of times, and, and granted, you know,

cities kind of have their own unique climates, and the Dawn Valley, of course,

has its own kind of neat microclimate.

How have you noticed things change?

How have you, you know, as you're pointing out, in connecting to the seasonality

of, of your plot, of land, of your kind of spot in, in Southern Ontario, are you

starting to notice the climate change?

Are you starting to find more challenges in terms of the volatility, uh, of the

weather events that you're engaging?

I am for sure.

Um, and, you know, I also experience other micro climates.

so I live down by the Bluffs.

It's different than, than Don Mills.

It's different than the Don Valley.

Um, my mom still lives in the house that my dad built, um, in,

in Highland Creek, which is between Highland Creek and the Rouge.

And that's a different weather pattern altogether.

Um, and the microclimates.

And then at a school, you know, an urban point of view, with architecture,

we create micro climates as well.

our vineyard exists on the south facing hill because the brick

heats up in the sun and it radiates back when the nights get cool.

So we're actually in, in many ways, we're actually further ahead, sometimes Niagara

with the same varieties, but there's days we can't work up on that hill.

It's just too hot.

Like you just can't.

Um, and, and the little farm area is an three side enclosed,

you know, open at one end.

so the wind patterns are different.

Um, between the tonne on the wall, we can now grow certain herbs survive the

winter that normally wouldn't, that wouldn't at my house in the front yard

it's, it's a warm enough microclimate.

we can experience all those things, but, but maple syrup is a great example.

You know, it runs earlier, um, it finishes earlier.

Um, what we did 10, 12, 15 years ago is not what's going on now.

And then you speak to people in the maple syrup community.

I mean, you're in Lan Ark, that is the, the maple syrup capital of Ontario.

Right.

So, you know, that's a discussion.

Um, the amount of snow uh, is on the ground that becomes groundwater

affects the amount of sap.

People don't think about that.

Um, so it is noticeable.

but at the same time, we're trying to work with it as much as possible.

Um, climate change is a, is a big topic of discussion students, but I don't

start with climate change because, you know, teenagers are angsty enough.

You don't, Hey, hey kids, the world's dying.

Let's go have some fun.

No.

it's, Hey, look at this cool stuff.

Look at what we can do.

Um, hey, some of this stuff can be done in the city, by the way.

Hey, by the way, some of this stuff can be done in the city better than in a, in a

rural area because of these microclimates.

Um, why would we, you know, grow mushrooms indoors in a rural area?

Let's grow it in a, in an urban area where there's more population

and we get it into the sooner.

Um, during COVID all the, all the underground passageway, you know, and

the pathways are shutting down, what can we grow underground, hydroponics,

mushrooms, et cetera, et cetera, greenhouse systems without sunlight,

and then bring it upstairs to the ground level and have a farmer's market

all grown within one kilometre, you know, in this or an abandoned building

in a, in a food desert in the city.

so yeah, climate change is a thing, but we, we then will, will kind of hit it

after a little bit, say, by the way, all these things we've been doing, help.

This, like, grow things locally within not just a hundred kilometres.

Like we always talk about when we're cooking in the outdoor kitchen, it's

like this is our a hundred foot diet.

you know, the more local, the less transportation, the less pollution, the

fresher, the better, the more nutrition.

It's a healthier planet.

It's cheaper.

Every, everything's, everything's better, right?

So, um, very much hope based education, but it's not like

ridiculous over the top, not real.

It's actual steps that you can do that things better.

Like it literally does, you know, on a macro level, micro

level, it doesn't matter.

Like, again, how do we help our community?

So one of the phrases we'll use in our programme is we're building the great

city builders of the future, right?

it is an urban focus.

We're not farming, it's urban farming.

We're not doing forestry, it's urban forestry.

There's a, there is, there is a difference and there is an appreciation,

about those differences and there's a respect about those differences.

at the same time, it's not the, oh, poor me, I'm in a city.

I can't grow as well as you.

No, I, I can't.

I can grow differently.

I can grow, in a, in a different space.

Um, but there's things that I can do well in a city environment that you can

struggle with in a rural environment.

I'll give you an example.

Because of our, our campus, it's 19 acres.

We've got architecture.

Um, like you, I'm an experiential experimental guy.

We can do that 'cause it's not a business.

Even though we, we do make some money from it, it comes back.

so like corn varieties, really old heirloom, you know, maybe important

to the local indigenous community seed given to me from, you know, local

elders saying, you're doing good things.

Here's some seat.

And I'll get like six kernels.

I'm like, oh my god, like six kernels.

Like, I'm so nervous about that.

You know, I worry about the squirrels, you worry about the

water, you worry about everything.

But I can like grow some way over in the corner and the indigenous mounds.

I can grow some behind the wall in the building in one of the boxes and

I can grow some over by the vineyard.

And they're not gonna cross pollinate because it's not

just across an open field.

It's not one farmer's monoculture corn crop, GMO across a dirt

road beside another farmer's.

We can protect our crops because of smaller scale

architecture, distance, et cetera.

Like that's an advantage.

And if this particular variety needs more heat, grow it closer to the brick.

That's okay.

I'll bring it up.

Right.

So there, there are good things that we can do, for sure.

And fascinating things.

'cause again, what I've loved throughout this conversation is

not just your curiosity, but the infectious curiosity that you are

clearly getting from your students.

Your students are clearly getting from you, and it seems anyone who engages you.

I mean, as an aside, I assume that the restaurant that you sell

some of the produce to brags about where the produce comes from.

Because if I was a diner at that restaurant, I would think

it was pretty cool, uh uh, where the food was coming from.

that they, they say this is some of the, you know,

the, the, best press that they get.

So I'm, I'm happy about that.

Yeah.

A Absolutely.

And and to that point, you know, you've been at this for a while and it, it

certainly shows in terms of the momentum.

You have the enthusiasm, the, the knowledge and the wisdom.

Are there other folks doing this?

Are there other, specifically urban, within Canada, are there other urban

schools that are practising urban agriculture and, and engaging food in, in

the manner that you guys are in Don Mills?

I, I'd say more and more, and that's been a real part of my

focus for the last sort of 10 years.

Um, I, I do a lot of work now with, um, uh, OI students, uh, Ontario Institute

of Studies in Education at U of T. Um, so the irony is, you know, with the non

university guy is spending more time working with the university, um, to

get them to, to engage and, uh, from different, um, different teachables.

And so in the summer, um, I don't work with high school students.

In the summer I'm working with student teachers and they're coming in and

they're volunteering their time and they're engaging in the firm.

Um, now I, I would like to see more technological studies teachers like

myself do it because the capacity to build it is different, the

safety aspects, all those things.

But I'll, I'll, I'll take what I can get.

Uh, really, it's really important that we get out there and even

a lot of elementary schools are starting to do more and more growing.

We'll help them build some, raise beds.

Um, and, and, but there are more high schools around the province some of this.

Some are, are further ahead than others, but that's fine.

So whenever I do a presentation, I'm always like, okay, just recognise

I've been doing this for 26 years.

Um, so, you know, don't be overwhelmed by the amount of stuff that you see.

Um, it's the scalability that matters.

You don't, you know, we got 40 raised beds that are four by eight to do two.

we've got 40 orchard, you know, 40 trees in the orchard of, of different varieties.

13 varieties do four.

Um, yes, we have 160 vines in the vineyard.

You probably don't need a vineyard.

Right?

So it's that, you know, do what what makes sense?

Now, I am able and willing to spend portions of my summer here because

it's important for my programme.

It allows us to do what we need.

Um, I, I get excited by the people that I work with.

Like, I'm, I'm, I'm a weird teacher that way, right?

if, if so and so's not prepared to do that, let me help you select

varieties of fruit that you can grow that won't be ready until September.

Um, have you considered potatoes?

'cause they're really, you know, plant and walk away.

It's gonna be okay.

Um, like all that stuff.

So how do we engage in those conversations?

Again, it goes around the seasonality, It's a really important conversation.

So, and also what I share with growing programmes, um, is

the mistakes that I've made.

So, you know, the mistakes that I've made with the students are plentiful.

And that's where the best learning comes from because the innovation

that comes out of it, we recover, how we react, that matters the most.

That is active resiliency.

The kids see the resiliency.

They feel the resiliency.

Now, sometimes it takes a whole year for them to see it, but it's tangible.

It's not like studying a math question and now I memorise the

formula, so I got the answer right.

No, you almost need to wait a whole year to see if it, if it works.

Um, but I share those mistakes and how we got over it so that anyone starting

starts on a better foothold than I did.

Right on.

kicked down a lot of doors.

can imagine the resistance that we, we often will get internally in our

building or from the school board.

Um, I hear no more than I hear.

Yes.

It's, it's like a marriage that way.

Uh, my wife's gonna hear that.

Um, but it's like, okay, so tell me why.

If you're gonna say no, tell me why.

I will go back to my students, tell 'em what you said, and we

will figure out the answer because we need to work within the rules.

I understand that.

I appreciate that.

But we will come back to you again and we will propose solution.

And if you say no again, we're gonna come back.

We're going to come back and we do, and we progressively kick doors down.

Now the next person doesn't have to kick that door down.

And so, you know, maybe I'm evangelising at this point, like how, here's how to,

how to, here's how, here we've done it.

I want to do this, but my principal's like, I don't know.

And they just want to know if someone else has done it.

I'm like, I've done this video.

Here you go.

Show your principal.

It can't.

In fact, I'm personally inviting your principal to come for a tour and bring

your class and, um, all make some pizza.

Yay.

Right.

on.

Yeah.

do what you gotta do.

Well, and, and it has to be done.

'cause you know, on the one hand there's the agricultural elements of the

literacy that we've been talking about, but to bring it back full circle, it's

for students like you and I, it it's for students who want that hands-on

experience, who need experiential learning and food literacy is the foundation

of health, of success, of prosperity.

Now, uh, this has been a, a really inspiring, a, a really

insightful, brilliant conversation.

I, I, I'm grateful for that.

Our last question that we end every episode on is, is kind

of the shout out section.

It's the, who are the leaders that you've looked up to or, or currently look up to?

You know, who, who are the people that, that you think we should be paying

attention to in terms of learning more and zoning into where you are learning from?

'cause you are clearly a very passionate and enthusiastic learner, in addition

to being a very inspiring teacher.

Well, um, my first inspiration is my father who

passed away, uh, five years ago.

So you can't tap into that knowledge, but, uh, I certainly can.

And my mother as well, of course.

Um, amazing.

But, um, I would say recently some of the people I've met, um, and,

and talking about these experiences in both the farming fields and,

and the ho um, hospitality.

so, um, the, the chefs at, uh, restaurant at Pearl Morrisette, one ranked in Canada.

Um, Eric Robertson has, has let me come and visit and, and, and poke

around and, um, visit, uh, his, his farm, uh, space that they've set up.

Him and, and Daniel.

Um, the restaurant's incredible because it is like farm to table and that's

why they have, you know, two Michelin stars and a green Michelin star

because they're doing great things.

And then, you know, Shane, his farmer that I've worked with as well, and we share

experiences and he helped me get some, some bars for the, uh, for the vineyard.

'cause our stuff broke.

saws, Nikki Organic Farm, that's someone you should reach out to.

Amazing.

So one of the suppliers, uh, to restaurant set, um, down home restaurant in Markdale

just cracked the top 100 in Canada.

Um, farm to table restaurant, their suppliers.

Um, good family farms, Mitchell.

Good.

You wanna talk about, um, regenerative soil techniques?

reach out to Mitchell, good at good family farms.

Um, unbelievable from a health point of view.

Um, RJ Taylor at, um, uh, spring Hills Fish and Cedar as a cedar crest.

Um, amazing.

That's that The farming there is unbelievable.

Like, like these are, and there's so many people.

Um, uh.

People on Wolf Island, people on Peli Island, Leamington, all overnight.

Like, just because they share, right?

They share and they make it better for you town.

Tyler Ganon, who lives on the Toronto Islands, he's taught me more about

fruit trees and trees and mushrooms and his brother Julian, like, just

like, again, urban people, right?

All of our indigenous partners that we work with.

Um, and coming from so many different parts of Ontario, not just, you know,

um, this area, but, but from the north and, and from this, the south east.

And it's just people that we know everyone shares.

And what's really cool is when I introduce some of them to each other,

suddenly I find out that they're doing a project together that I

had no idea that was happening.

I find out later, I'm like, okay, that's cool.

you introduce friends at a party and suddenly they're, they're

going to Brazil together and you're like, what's going on there?

Okay,

Right on.

Well, and if anything, I think you.

you in this list now, Jesse, now you're one of those

people you are no, but you are, are, are collector of, of, of people.

You're, you're bringing people together that are, are strangely

like-minded, but are also like ding ding, ding, ding and all these tangents.

And now if we can pull everyone's tangents into the same orbit, it's

pretty ridiculously cool, right?

So, um, these are the moments where I'm just like, I just met

another cool, awesome person, right?

Well, it's, it's kind of like that saying, you know, there,

there's something in the water, but in this case, there's something in the food.

There's something in the maple syrup here in Ontario that encourages us to share.

Fall.

Yes,

Yes, exactly.

Yeah, I was, I was, I was at my, one of my last meetings

where, you know, 'cause I'm the old guy in the room and um, you know, just

was surrounded by a whole bunch of younger teachers that are just like,

I'm like, we're safe, we're good.

These are great people.

I already know the students are good, but, but now they can go

and meet these people as well.

And I, I kind of finished with like, you know, I, I used,

I used to think, let I go.

I was like an island, like just, I was like the only crazy person in this stream.

And now I realise there's a whole bunch of islands in the same street and we're

all those crazy people, but we're all still standing in the same stream.

And as long as we can find each other, we're gonna be okay.

Right on.

That is a brilliant note to end on.

Dan.

This has been a tour de divorce.

I am actually thinking fondly of high school again.

You have accomplished the impossible.

wow, crazy.

if anything, I am gonna reach out to some of my friends in Toronto who

have kids who have not yet reached middle school to let them know they should start

thinking about Don Mills Collegiate as a potential, uh, secondary education.

ad. That's all.

I'm here for just

Well, e

so.

except that's kind of part of what it is, to your point about

spreading the excitement, the excitement of urban agricultural education.

Dan, thank you so much.

Thank you, Jesse.

Much appreciated.

I love talking to you.

And boy did I love talking to Dan.

And I say that not just because I clearly worked out some of my therapy, some

of my anxiety and trauma associated with high school, but I do feel he

gives us a very clear and viable path to not only addressing the widespread

succession crisis that faces Canadian agriculture, but quite frankly the

need to embrace the opportunity to be a global AgriFood superpower.

And we're not gonna be able to do that using the existing capacity.

We need to scale up, we need to be thinking larger, and we need to be

thinking about the talent, expertise, and diversity that exists in Canadian cities.

You know, to repeat something that I said in the intro, it's not

just a matter of us growing food.

We need to be growing farmers.

And the earlier, the younger, we get people interested in the idea of

agriculture, AgriFood and growing food.

Whether at an industrial scale or whether at a personal scale, the stronger our

society, the stronger our country will be.

Uh, if, if anything, I don't think today's conversation

was an aberration or atypical.

I think like most of the conversations we have here on the Future Herd, we

are finding examples of the future that are alive and thriving in the present.

It's just a matter of recognising and then replicating, allowing other

peoples to learn from the wisdom that people like Dan bring to the sector

and bring to us as people who wanna learn, who want to implement, who

want to embrace the opportunity that Canada can play feeding the world.

So if you've enjoyed this episode as I certainly have, then do us a favour.

Rate us on your favourite podcast platform.

Uh, share this episode.

Check us out on YouTube on, uh, the future herd.ca.

And, uh, we'll be back, uh, with a couple of panel episodes and

some other interesting stuff that we've got in the work.

So thanks again.

Uh, we'll see you soon here on the Future Herd.