In this episode of One Minute Can Save a Life, Marlene and Debbie speak from the heart about the profound loss of their children to suicide. Through their stories, they reveal the raw realities of grief and the strength it takes to keep moving forward.

Together, they reflect on the signs they wish they had recognized, the importance of open conversations about mental health, and the power of community in breaking the silence surrounding suicide. Their courage to speak out offers comfort to those who are grieving and inspiration to those seeking to make a difference.

This episode stands as a testament to love, resilience, and the belief that even in the darkest moments, connection and understanding can light the way toward healing.

Takeaways:

• The discussion emphasizes the necessity of openly communicating about mental health and suicide, especially with children.
• Recognizing the complexities of grief after a suicide and the importance of sharing memories is vital for healing.
• Parents should proactively engage in conversations about suicidal thoughts with their children, using appropriate language.
• The episode highlights that societal stigma surrounding suicide needs to be addressed to foster supportive environments.
• It is critical to remember and celebrate the lives of those lost to suicide rather than solely focusing on their deaths.
• The importance of developing coping skills and mental health awareness from a young age cannot be overstated.

For more information on mental health support, contact the 988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline.

For more information on Prosper, go to the website

Foreign.

My name is Kent Corso, and I'm your host for this episode of One Minute Can Save a Life.

While I am a licensed clinical psychologist, none of these guests are my patients, nor does anything I say constitute medical advice.

The views conveyed during our conversations do not reflect the views, positions, or policies of any private or public organization.

This is simply a series of conversations with people who have some connection to hardship, suicide, mental health, or loss.

There's so much we can learn from one another.

So let's get started.

Today, our guests are Debbie and Marlene.

They're both mothers who have lost a child to suicide.

Would you ladies both introduce yourselves?

I'm Debbie Fanton, and I lost my son Dawson.

He was 18 years old and had just started college at the University of Wyoming, had only been there for six weeks.

I'm Marlene Kramer, and I lost my daughter Mac 4 years ago in September to suicide.

Mack was in the second year at the University of Wyoming.

Thank you both for being willing to be on our podcast.

I think that it's so important for listeners and the public in general to hear from those who have lost a loved one to suicide because you offer a very unique perspective.

It's not an experience that is easy and you know better than anyone because you are living it.

Yet there's so much we can learn from your wisdom and the things that you unfortunately have had to experience during this time.

So thank you again for your generosity and your courage of being willing to talk about it.

So often when someone dies by natural causes, or let's say a heart attack or a car accident, when we hear people reminisce about the person who has died, they tell stories.

There are funny anecdotes.

There's a lot of reminiscing that brings people together and helps them really share those positive experiences they had with their lost loved ones.

However, when someone dies by suicide, there's a different set of conversations.

Oftentimes the person who is deceased.

We don't talk about all the good times or any great aspects of who they were.

We just sort of talk about how they died.

And quite honestly, we can do better.

And that's not fair that as a society, we just sort of slip into that groove.

And I think we probably do because it's awkward, because we are surprised that something that stands out to us, how they died.

So would you both tell us about Dawson and Mack, but tell us the wonderful people your children were.

Yeah.

Mac was born Michaela Kramer, and during freshman year of college, Mac decided she wanted to be called Mac.

Being Non binary.

So I will also try to use the pronouns they and them when I'm referring to Mac.

Mac was a very compassionate person, very helpful to others, always wanting to make sure that others were taken care of.

Very talented musically, very talented in speech and debate.

Was a wonderful person that wanted to make sure others were taken care of and unfortunately didn't take as good a care of herself or didn't think of themselves as important as others.

Dawson the same, I'm very compassionate and trying to help other people.

People seem to know that they could reach out to him and trust him, confide in him.

Several people told him that they were considering suicide and he stayed with them and got them through it.

But he also, he was funny, he could make people laugh.

And that's most of the stories that people have shared with me.

Just his humor side, especially at speech and debate.

He was pretty much known around, around Wyoming.

Couldn't go anywhere that people wouldn't know him.

Like, oh, there's Dawson.

And even after his death, several school districts around the state set up counselors to have some of their students go talk to them because he just affected so many lives.

In other words, his, his death really had some shockwaves throughout the multiple communities around the state.

It did.

And I would say that was similar with Mac too, as far as it was four years earlier.

But again, the speech and debate community, I think in Wyoming is so tight that they do know one another.

And Dawson and Mac were both so accomplished, they were looked up to as leaders in the speech and debate community in Wyoming.

People knew of Mac and Dawson across the state of Wyoming in the speech and debate community and the unfortunate circumstances.

Right.

And it also sounds like Mack and Dawson knew each other through speech and debate, is that right?

Yes, that is correct.

Mac was four years older.

They both grew up in Rock Springs and went to graduated from Rock Springs High School.

Mac actually mentored Dawson in speech and debate a little bit virtually via zoom when Mac was a freshman at UW and Dawson was just beginning speech and debate then at the high school level.

And I know that Dawson looked up to Mac a lot for that.

And Mack thought very highly of Dawson as well.

Mack was so encouraging with Dawson and he shared some of the messages that Mac had sent him.

And yeah, they kind of had Their little humor going with one another as well.

That's great.

That's great.

And you two ladies sort of know each other as well, outside of this tragic coincidence.

Yeah.

We're both in Rock Springs, of course, and in the education community.

So I was a former teacher, just recently retired in the school district.

And I was a preschool teacher.

Excellent.

And so I'm kind of struck by some of the coincidences here.

They're both.

Both.

Mac and Dawson were very bright kids, both involved in speech and debate.

They knew each other.

You two have known each other just from being in the same community, in the same field.

I am struck by what Deb said a moment ago about Dawson having helped several of his friends who were thinking of suicide.

Can you talk a little more about that, Debbie?

The one night in particular, he came to me and woke me up in the middle of the night and said, this person was talking about suicide and wanted to know what to do.

And I said, well, we need to get a hold of her parents and find somebody who has their phone number.

And so he did that.

And she was not very happy with him.

And he said he didn't care because he would rather lose a friendship than lose a friend to suicide.

In his words.

Wow.

Wait on him.

And they.

They became good, you know, good friends after that.

And she thanked him and.

Yeah.

Now there are some people who say that the more we talk about suicide, the more we're going to see suicides.

Almost as if we'll put ideas in our children's heads.

Do you all have any thoughts about that idea?

Yeah, I think that's totally false.

I think we need to be talking about suicide and talking about mental health in general much more.

And not just talking about it, but talking about what we can do to improve our mental health and what we can do if we're having suicidal thoughts and who we can turn to.

And yeah, there's been many.

I've read many books and there's much research that says talking about suicide is not going to cause suicide or put suicidal thoughts into someone's mind who doesn't.

Already have them talking about it.

When kids are younger, using appropriate language and developing coping skills so that they're prepared for whatever comes at them.

Yeah.

And, you know, when Mac was little and we have a son as well, when they were little, we talked.

We started talking to them about drugs, we started talking to them about gangs, we talked to them about sex, those kinds of things.

We never brought up suicide.

And looking back, that was it just never even crossed our mind.

To have kind of conversation.

And now looking back, those kind of conversations need to happen too, right along with the drugs and alcohol and gangs and those kinds of things.

We need to be talking about mental health and how to.

How to help ourselves stay healthy mentally as well as physically.

So you would group suicide in there with all those other topics that we talk to our children about when they're younger, Sort of the bad things we want them to be aware of, those sort of safety issues, whether it's drugs or.

I think you said gangs, crime, even things like look both ways before crossing the street or don't talk to strangers.

You would lump suicide and mental health in with those?

Absolutely.

I'm going to poke you in the ribs here a little bit.

It's not just because you're an educator.

I mean, not just because you're in the education system.

No, it's not.

And like I said, it's a conversation we did not have with our children as they were growing up.

We had the conversations about safe touches, about looking both ways across the street, about getting a good group of peers, staying away from drugs, alcohol, suicide.

Just never crossed our mind to have that conversation.

And now in retrospect, it would have been so important.

You know, we did talk to Dawson after you had lost Matt, because he was very affected by that, But I don't feel like we talked about it enough.

And like Dawson, senior year, he did a drama piece about a 911 firefighter, and he suffered from PTSD.

And so he wanted to bring awareness to men's mental health.

So he used that platform to spread that word.

So I guess in my head I thought, oh, he's okay.

He's doing good.

He's the one that's wanting to spread the word where in reality he was suffering.

So I think most parents, when they hear the types of things you both just said, are a little bit intimidated by it.

So if I could ask you to break it down a little bit for our audience.

Marlene, you mentioned how we have to have those conversations in the right way, sort of using the right words.

What does that sound like?

How does a parent say that to a child?

And what are those words they should be saying when teaching a young child about suicide?

So I think the most important thing is to start talking to your children young in a developmentally appropriate way.

And that would be talking about those healthy emotions, healthy feelings, and how to cope when you.

When you do feel angry or you do feel sad, and then also to bring in the awareness of how to help others or how to Recognize in others emotions that may be damaging.

And of course, as they get a little bit older, bringing in that word suicide, and if they hear someone talking about suicide or killing themselves to get the help, for the.

Get an adult to help in that.

Situation, it sounds like that's the critical piece, Marlene, is that when it does come to that really serious stuff and a child hears the word suicide or maybe thinks about it themselves, to bring a trusted adult in, a parent or someone else, sort of like Debbie had described earlier had happened with Dawson and one of his friends.

Debbie, when you say you feel like maybe you didn't talk enough about suicide with Dawson, even though he was suffering from some PTSD and had been focused on mental health, you're thinking something to the effect of he's.

He's aware, and if he's thinking about it, we would know.

But it sounds like there were other conversations you had hoped you could have had.

Could you talk more about what those might be so that parents whose children may be struggling with mental health but aren't quite there yet with suicide, how they can approach this with their kids?

Of course, hindsight's 20 20, but, yeah, I wish that we had had conversations even when Mac passed.

Once a week or what?

How are you doing, honey?

You know, how.

How are you handling your feelings?

What.

What can we do to help you and just not assume that, you know, not just look.

No.

How's it going, das?

Yeah, it's good, but just really sit down.

It sounds like what you're saying is if we are aware that our child is struggling to not only check in with them regularly, but also maybe foster those uncomfortable conversations to really ask about the negative stuff that they might be more hesitant to share with us.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Just.

Just go a little deeper.

Would you encourage parents to ask that hard question to their child?

Have you thought about ending your life or killing yourself?

Yes, Most.

Most definitely.

Okay.

That's what we need to all be doing.

You know, I think sometimes, whether it's as parents or just as people, we sort of follow others lead and we sort of think, well, if that's bothering them, they'll talk to me about it, or they can trust me, I'm approachable.

They'll say something.

But of course, we know that it's different when it comes to suicidal thoughts.

There's so much stigma.

There are so many barriers to that person saying something.

Everything from they might think I'm crazy to they won't trust me.

Maybe I'll get sort of hauled off and hospitalized, or just that person won't be my friend anymore or they won't think as highly of me.

You know, sometimes I think people think that whether they're a student or they're a grown up, my boss won't think I'm as capable, or as a student, that teacher thinks so highly of me, I couldn't tell her or him that I'm struggling with these thoughts or even a parent.

Maybe if I told my mom or dad, it would disappoint them and it would crush them.

And I. I don't want to do that to them.

So I think there are so many barriers that your very straightforward advice is well taken, which is you have to ask.

There's that old saying that if you don't ask, you don't get.

And I think certainly this is one of those really important exemplars of where that's true.

Yeah.

And I can speak a little bit more about Mac in that realm as well.

And in the middle of the night that she.

That they had that attempt, they drove themselves to the hospital, realizing they had done something wrong and they wanted help.

Wow.

And so throughout junior year, that was the beginning of Mac's junior year.

Throughout junior year, Mac did spend some time in the Wyoming Behavioral Institute in Casper, got counseling throughout junior year and seemed to really be doing well.

Had a fabulous senior year of high school.

Mack, I think, was so busy, though.

She was into band.

They were the drum major.

They were on speech and debate.

They were with their, you know, their studies, looking into colleges.

And so we kind of felt like we had gotten over the hump, so to speak, with the mental health issues.

We felt like Mac was on a good path.

Similar to what Debbie shared about Dawson going to college.

Freshman year seemed to go okay.

Beginning of sophomore year, Mac was with the speech and debate team, going on hikes, having game night.

Just recently voted president of the speech and debate team by peers at uw.

And Mac took their own life the day after Labor Day of their sophomore year.

And so again, my husband and I had been up to visit Labor Day weekend, and we never asked Mac how they were doing.

They just seemed so social, so happy.

We actually went on walks in the morning and talked about how glad we were that Mac was doing so well.

But given Mac's history, we should have been more vigilant about asking, how are you doing?

Are you having any more suicidal Thoughts we shouldn't have declared victory, I guess, so to speak.

You know, we felt like we had gotten over the tough times and everything was on the uphill again.

And I just think you need to stay on top of those things and continue to ask those questions.

And like Debbie said, go deep with it.

Ask how are.

Not just, how are you?

How are you doing?

How do you feel emotionally?

Are things bothering you?

Is there anything we can do to help?

And letting them know that they can always turn to you with anything that they have on their mind or anything that they're dealing with that you as the parents, will be there and supportive of whatever they need help with.

I really appreciate what you said there, Marlene, because it's true.

Parents are truly a child's first counselor, their first support, their primary support, from the moment they come out of the womb.

And so while it's very important to have professional services on board, like behavioral health or primary care provider or even to have someone from the faith community involved in that child's spiritual nurturing and development, there's no replacement for a parent.

And I love how you said that is that we thought we were in the clear.

We thought we were sort of over the hump and on the upswing.

The reason why it's so important that our listeners hear that part of what you just said is because people who are thinking of killing themselves are not necessarily depressed all day, every day.

They have good days and bad days just like the rest of us.

And so it can be so deceiving when we know a loved one is struggling and we do our best to get them help and we're checking in with them here and there.

It can be deceiving when.

When they have a series of consecutive good days.

So I really appreciate your point.

It really hits home that we still need to ask the question because of a person's history, maybe of.

Of attempting.

And I'm also struck by the coincidence that.

Debbie, you mentioned that Dawson ended his life.

I think it's September 27th.

28Th.

28Th.

Thank you.

And then Marlene back.

It was Labor Day.

It was early September.

Is that right?

And so, just for our listeners, we know that adult suicides tend to spike in the late spring and early summer.

But for kids and adolescents, it is when the school year begins that we see that increased rate in most cases.

And it's because of the social stress and some of that pressure.

Social support is, of course, a risk reducer, but social stress and pressure is a risk increaser.

So that time of year is really tough.

Marlene, you said you're sort of four years ahead of where Debbie is, or maybe three years ahead.

She has just hit the one year anniversary and hit the four year.

Can you both tell our listeners a little bit about what that process is?

Process is like if one person in the audience may have also lost someone to suicide and is maybe in a rough place, it might help them understand how to cope and what to expect as time passes.

Yes, I can speak to that a little bit.

The, the first few months are unreal.

I mean, you've never felt that kind of grief that you feel when you lose a child.

And then losing your child to suicide just complicates that grief.

It's not unusual to have some feelings of.

It would be okay if I die too.

I'm not saying that you would be suicidal, but I remember feeling like it would be okay if I die because I would be with Mac and my husband and son would be together.

I'm not going to say I was suicidal, but I know that some people do have those suicidal thoughts.

Pastor Lezine, a child to suicide.

So that is normal.

But to still please get help with that.

Something that helped me a lot is I read many, many books on grief.

I listened to music, especially Christian music, and that really helped me.

I made a playlist called Music for Mac of some songs we had at Mac services, but also the kind of music Mac like and some Christian music.

And you just need to really take care of yourselves.

My husband and I went to counseling every week for a year and a half together.

And I think just through our faith, our counseling, and our family and friendship circle, we have made it to the four year mark.

And you know, there is hope.

We have joyful days now.

Mac is always going to be a part of our lives.

And the tragedy that happened to us will always be a part of our story.

However, there is hope that you can find happiness and joy in days again and in.

In memories of your loved one you've lost.

You're definitely right.

The beginning part for us was total shock because it just was not on the radar.

Well, in fact, when the doctor called me to tell me, and I'm asking him, is this some sort of joke?

Because I just could not wrap my head around it.

I'm like, there's just no way.

So shock, numb denial, all the whys, guilt, the guilt, you know, I still struggle with guilt, but I don't know.

Then you just, you start remembering just the good stuff.

And I think this community has Been actually pretty, pretty good about rallying around I think with your family too.

But trying to, to share the good stuff and helping us remember that the good stories.

And for me, I play pickleball.

I walk.

I did find a note up at the cemetery, Dawson's headstone that somebody had left and this person was not in a good spot and said, you know Dawson, you were the only person I could talk to that I could confide in and they weren't doing well and said see you soon.

So I was very concerned about that.

I wrote a note on the back of the note that they left hoping that they would see it and it was still there.

So I assumed it wasn't seen.

So I started painting rocks and just hold on for another day or just all these different rocks.

One say pocket hugs and have a note in this bag and just told people help yourself if they'll help bring you comfort or anything or you want one for a friend.

So that's kind of what I've been doing lately.

First of all, thank you for going into that briefly.

It's so important that we memorialize our lost one.

It's so important that we tell stories and share in the positivity because otherwise it just scares sits under this cloud with the word suicide.

Brandon on it.

As you both think about the way your community has treated you, what are some important things that people should be doing after a suicide?

You're both from Rock Springs.

There was a 12 year old student who recently ended his life a few weeks ago.

What can people do to have a positive impact influence on the lost survivors?

Do you want them to check in with you about how you're feeling?

Do you want them to come share a funny or memorable story they have about Mac or Dawson?

Give.

Give your community some advice here.

Yeah, I think it's so important to support those who have lost a loved one by suicide just as you would if you lost someone to cancer or heart attack or old age.

I think Debbie and I have both felt a lot of support in our community.

However, there have been times when people still don't bring up Mac in conversation.

So if I'm with colleagues or with friends, I will bring up Mac and then we will have a conversation or stories and those kinds of things.

I even find that within my own family circle that others have a hard time bringing up stories of Mac.

But I think it's so important to keep their memory alive that we need to be telling those stories.

And it's often me who brings up the stories of Mac and Then others will join in.

But I think, don't be afraid to mention the loved one's death, and don't be afraid to talk about the loved one, because we know they died.

We want to remember that they lived, and we want to hear those stories and those memories that people have that is so powerful.

We know they died, and we want to remember that they lived and just.

To know that they're not forgotten.

Like I said, with the stories that people will share, we'll have Dawson's friends stop by once in a while and just check in on us.

And those are just my favorite business, because the kids, I think, are so much better than the adults at times because they will focus in more on the positivity and just the funny stuff make us laugh.

And I know some have shared some videos over the last weekend, and it's just.

My gosh, you're a nut.

That's great.

Yeah.

I mean, what I hear you saying is people should lean forward and talk about the elephant in the room.

If it's Marlene, they're saying, hey, I just had this thought about Mac, or, how are you doing?

It's been four years with Debbie, it's.

Hey, it's been a year.

Gosh, I loved Dawson.

He was such a great kid.

Right.

So we know that relationships are what bind us together as humans.

And so to know that a relationship has ended because someone's died and to not mention it within the context of all these connections, we have it almost.

The silence almost becomes louder than anything else.

Right.

And not in a comfortable way, in almost a rub or a kick in the shins.

So really appreciate that advice for your community.

We only have a few minutes left.

Is there anything else that you think we should be doing as individuals, as communities, as parents or families?

What input would you have about how to tackle suicide and how to successfully prevent suicide?

Well, again, I think it goes back to starting when.

When the kids are younger.

And if we could get it into the school district, I feel like there's pushback, at least here in Sweetwater County.

That's not a wanted thing that it.

Like you had said before, it's going to increase suicide if we talk about it.

And it's like, no, it's.

It's not.

We need to get these kids some coping skills and talking about this stuff, and maybe that will help get it into the families, too.

Yeah, it's sort of like this idea that, well, if suicide is a potentially unsafe situation, so are having firearms around toddlers and children.

And so if we follow that logic, that means as if we own a firearm, we should never let our kids know that that exists because it's not safe.

But we do the opposite, don't we?

We try to teach it at an early age so that they know how to handle them, so that the home is safe.

And so I see those as very similar.

Yeah, I.

And I would agree with that.

Just begin talking with your children at a young age, developmentally appropriate, and keep the conversations open so that they feel comfortable coming to you when they do have troubles or face struggles as well.

And then I guess the other piece of advice I would give to lost survivors is that there is hope.

You know, if you are within the first year or even a little bit more than a year, sometimes it can feel like there is no hope and there is no meaning and purpose to life anymore.

But if you continue, they say time heals all wounds.

I think it's what you do with that time that heals those wounds.

So if you find things that bring you comfort or counseling or if you're.

If you have a faith, your faith, leaders, reading books, whatever you can do to get you through those first years, there will be hope.

Thank you both so much for your time and for your generosity and sharing your personal story, both pain and the wonderful memories you have of Dawson and Mac.

My hope is that this podcast episode helps memorialize them and takes what is otherwise a tragedy and does something positive with it.

Thank you for having us.

Yes, thank you very much.

Thank you for listening to this episode of One Minute Can Save a Life.

Take care of yourself.

Take care of your neighbor.

Be bold.

Ask the hard questions.

Because if you don't, who will?

Production support for One Minute Can Save a Life was provided by TKB Podcast Studio.

To find out more about our services, go to tkbpodcaststudio.

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