Zainab Al-Mousawi, Owner of "To The Moon and Back"

Artwork for podcast Beans Without Boundaries

Episode 7 • 6th July 2023 • Beans Without Boundaries • Elena Mahmood

I decided looking more into your coffee shop, and I thought that the concept was so… Your coffee shop in general is beautiful. Thank you. But I was also curious about how you really started in the coffee world and how you were and I guess what it's been like for you. I wanted to reach out and hear your story. That's why I reached out. I was really curious to hear more about what made you want to open a coffee shop and what got you.

[: 00:00:45

To the- How did you find out about me though?

[: 00:00:47

I follow Mukhtar on Instagram.

[: 00:00:52

Oh, Mukhtar, yeah.

[: 00:00:53

He's a big inspiration for me with my coffee journey. And then I saw him post about you a few times and I just obviously went to your profile through that and was serious.

[: 00:01:09

Yeah. He's a nice guy. Such an interesting story as well from his side.

[: 00:01:18

Yeah. Reading his books, I've read his book and I was very much like, wow, that's a wild story. And that's what helped me with wanting to hear other people's stories is obviously like you look at other people face value and you don't really know what they've been through and what they've experienced and how they got to the point where they're at. You can only see the end result. So I was like, well, this is interesting. I wonder who else also either had a rough time coming into where they're at or had a lot of different pathways to get to the point where they're at. Because I know a lot of people when they're in the coffee world, they don't really start that way.

[: 00:01:54

While you're talking, I remembered another woman that I met recently in the world of coffee that happened in Dubai recently. And she's into roasting and she lives in the US. But she has a background in, I think, genetics, like genetics engineering or something. I was like, wow, that's amazing. And she is now hosting a podcast as well. So she actually goes through stories of people. Yeah, her podcast is called Map It Forward. And such an interesting person as well. If you're going to talk to her, if you're interested as well, she's cool. Yeah. Interesting story. Maria about me, before getting into coffee, I never drank coffee in my life. As a kid here in the UAE, I'm from Abu Dhabi, the capital of the UAE, and born and raised there. So we have a culture. We're very much inspired by the Iranian and Indian culture mostly because of the trade line and the pasta and all of that. So we get a lot of spices. So we grew up with the chai. It's like the chai with milk, so the spice, tea and milk. And that was what I grew up with. And then coffee was not a big thing.

[: 00:03:27

In my view, it was the adult drink. It's like every house needs to have coffee, a pot of coffee and a pot of tea. And that's like an Arab thing. Whenever guests come over, then you have to give them coffee, and that's part of the tradition. And for me, growing up, that was always the adult drink that kids are not supposed to come close to. I wasn't even curious to explore it. And then as I became a teenager, then this cafe came to be the cool drink that everybody drinks to keep you awake while you're studying. And I tried it, but I was still not interested. I didn't like the flavor. It was too bitter for me. And then a friend of mine, one day when I was in college, she made Arabic coffee because I was living at the dorms with the other girls, and she made Arabic coffee. And she was like, Why don't you try it? I told her like, Oh, I've never tried it before. And she was like, Okay, you can try it. So then I tried it, and I remember it was an embarrassing story, and still until this day, I'm friends with her, and it's still embarrassing.

[: 00:04:35

I told her that it lacks sugar. There's no sugar in there. And she was like, You're not supposed to add sugar to coffee. This is why traditionally the Arabs have it to a to a date, because you get the sugar from the dates, and then that's why you drink the coffee with the spices. So I didn't like it. And then in 2008, I moved to Melbourne, Australia, for my bachelor's. And so a lot of the kids here in the UAE, they get scholarships to study overseas. And I didn't get the scholarship at the time, but I really wanted to study overseas. My dream since I was in high school was to go to a college in the US. But at the time when I graduated, it was frowned upon for me as a girl, to go alone as an Arab girl and no family over there. So it was not a common thing. So they were like, No, you have to study in the UAE. So I was like, okay, then I studied in Dubai. But then I got an opportunity where my brother was going, like he got a scholarship. And I was like, It's never too late.

[: 00:05:44

I'm still wanting to do it. So I would transfer and get credits there, and I would get an offer. But this time, it was in Australia. It was in the US. It was like, It's fine by me, because I went to Australia with my family a few times. And I was like, That's such a nice place. I would like to go. So I applied my paperwork and everything, but I didn't get the scholarship. But I got an offer to study in the university over there. So then I was like, I can't give up on this dream. And then I spoke to my family and all of that. And then my uncle was kind enough and he was like, I will support your studies by paying for your fees, university fees, but you have to sort yourself out in terms of your pocket money because he wanted me to depend on myself. Because my family wanted me to know that it's not as easy to live overseas. So they wanted me to see the reality of it, like how hard it is to just go independent, because I was so persistent since I was a kid to be independent.

[: 00:06:49

And so I agreed straight away. I was like, sure, I would go and I would find a source of income because they refused to give me a scholarship since I wasn't a fresh graduate and the priority was for fresh graduates. And I have been already graduated four years ago since then by the time. Anyways, so a long story short, I went to Melbourne. And then as I get to know the start making friends over there, they told me, why don't you go and work in a cafe? That's the best way to get cash in hand. And you don't have to go through taxation and all of that. And I was like, Okay, cool. So I started applying to the cafe at the university and I got the job. So part time, but in waitressing. So every day I would go and waiter, and then I would notice a huge line, especially in the morning. So I would start at 5:00 a. M. And then since 6:00 AM, because later on, I have classes, so I have to go to my classes, since 6:00 AM, the students line up all for coffee. And I was like, That is insane.

[: 00:07:56

Why can't you just get enough sleep? And why wouldn't they line up for this drink? What's so special about it? I tried it and I didn't like it. And then I asked the baristae, I was like, Can I please try a coffee? The most common coffee that everybody drinks. And at the time, Flat White was a thing in Melbourne. And then he was like, There you go. This is called the Flat White. It's Espresso with milk. I was like, Okay, I'm going to try it. So I tried it first time in 2008, and that was it for me. It was like, oh, you know that moment? This is such a... It's so nice. And it was not bitter. It had some nice notes, and it was like chocolatey with milk. It didn't taste like the coffee that I had in mind. So since then, I fell in love with it, and I asked the barista to teach me everything about it. And then I went and I found a coffee academy and I enrolled it in a hospitality course, including Barista basics, steaming milk, and all of that. And then just my passion kept growing bigger and bigger.

[: 00:08:57

And then I was promoted from a waitress to a barista. And since then, I've been working as a barista in multiple coffee shops around Melbourne. And yeah, so I kept on doing that for 10 years because I decided that I wanted to stay in Melbourne. So I did my bachelor's, and then I worked for a bit, and I did my masters, and then eventually I had to come back. Yeah, so when I came back after 10 years, I felt like an alien. I spent my youth in Australia 10 years. All my friends are over there. My friends here, my school friends, all moved on, and especially that it was like a segregated society. So I went to an old school, old girl school. So girls usually, by the time when I came back, I think I was 27. So they would have been married by then. Yeah, so everybody got married, moved on with their lives and started new families, blah, blah, and started working. And I was this fresh graduate starting over, and I felt like an alien. And I felt very, very sad and disconnected. And I wanted to go back to Melbourne.

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And I planned to open a coffee shop in Melbourne. So I was like, My life is there, so I'm going to invest even more in there. They started looking here and there, but it didn't work because I'm not a citizen and it's just too complicated. So that was in 2018. And then I was like, Why can't I just do the same thing here and start to create the space that's got everything that I need or that I lack? I create the culture that I'm missing so much. Because at that time, the cafe culture here was just the majority of cafes are just a place where you go drink coffee and stay for half an hour and then just leave. So for me, that was boring because when I was in Australia, I would meet people. I would just randomly chat to people, and then they would approach me. If you see.

[: 00:11:21

Someone- You make community that way.

[: 00:11:23

Exactly. So it's like a community, and I couldn't find anything similar to it here. So It was like, Why don't I create that space? So then I decided to do it, and I did it. And that's how TTNB, or to them when the buck, was born, basically.

[: 00:11:41

Where did you get the name from?

[: 00:11:44

It was very random. I remember being on the couch and then trying to find a name that was not cliché or I wanted nothing to do with coffee. So I wanted something that would convey how much I'm passionate about coffee and how long it took me, even though it was ironic because coffee is a huge part of the Arab culture.

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But it.

[: 00:12:08

Took me to actually go to Australia, which is far, far away from where I am, away from my culture to fall in love with this drink or with the beans. And then just the phrase came to my mind. It was like, to the moon and back. I was like, Oh, interesting. To the moon and back. In my mind, it makes sense, so I try my best to make sense and explain it. When you say to the moon and back, I love you to the moon and back, it conveys how much you are passionate or how far are you willing to go in order to prove how much you love something or someone. And for me, it translated that distance that I had to travel. So to the Moon and back is like from Dubai to Australia, I'm back. And then I brought the coffee beans from there because I worked in the roaster, some of the roasters there. So then I decided to talk to my friends who are roasting coffee beans in Melbourne and ship them in Dubai. And that's how I kept the connection between here and there. And I thought to the Moon and back is perfect.

[: 00:13:16

So it's about the distance. It's about how much I'm passionate about coffee, and it's a cool name. I was like, okay, to the moon and back.

[: 00:13:26

So since you've opened an Australian inspired coffee shop, has it made you revisit Arabic coffee at all and make you enjoy it? Or do you still feel like you would prefer Australian coffee beverages versus Arabic coffee?

[: 00:13:43

No, I love Arabic coffee. I drink Arabic coffee like crazy. And because the Arabic coffee is lightly roasted, especially if you would compare, for example, the Saudi one to the UAE one, the Saudi one is even lighter. So they call it shagra, which is like the blonde roast. So it's very high in caffeine, and that would keep me awake. And I really enjoy it. And it's just got a different flavor and they add spices to it. I find that now as an adult is an exciting beverage.

[: 00:14:17

That's good. I guess I'm curious too. You said that your family wanted you to be able to be independent, but understand the responsibilities of being an adult on your own, especially being a woman in a different country. So when you told them about you wanting to open a coffee shop in UA, were they supportive?

[: 00:14:41

Honestly, I didn't tell anyone. I'm a secretive person, so like what I did with applying and getting the offer, so I don't talk unless things are done already. So I make a decision. I think about it thoroughly from all angles, and then I do the risk assessment in my head, and then I approach the thing and I make it happen, and I go like, Oh, by the way, I'm starting this process.

[: 00:15:07

I'm not a lot like that too.

[: 00:15:09

Just FYI. But when I told them, they were very, very supportive and they were shocked because I'm the first businesswoman in the family, basically. And it's not a thing that runs in the family. The majority of my siblings and cousins, they're all employees, and I'm the only one who has decided to just take a different path completely. And it can be a scary thing for people here because they're not used to it. They're used to having the concept of having a job, a stable income, security, and that's good enough. So for me to take the risk and run my own business, that was a scary thing for them.

[: 00:16:01

Yeah.

[: 00:16:04

But they were supportive, and now they... It's funny how embarrassing parents are. Now my mom and dad are into specialty coffee, but they live in Abu Dhabi, so they keep on going and trying. They're keeping up with every new cafe that opens, and then they would just go and visit. And then they would talk to the barista as if they know me, as if I'm this famous celebrity. And it's like, Oh, our daughter, she has to come and visit you. I'm like, Stop doing that.

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[: 00:16:37

Swear, when I go to Abu Dhabi, if I decide sometimes to go to a cafe randomly just for a takeaway coffee, they would know me because my mom would show them a picture. And then now they know me just because of her. That's cute. Thank you for being proud of that. That's so nice.

[: 00:16:55

Yeah. That's so funny. I could see my family do the same thing. Yeah. Yeah. I guess did you ever suffer from... I guess that's a really interesting concept, like going from Old Lovie all the way to Melbourne. When you came to Melbourne, was it... I guess I don't know anything about Australian culture in terms of community there, but did you transition from the Arabic world into Australia's world like easily? Or did you suffer from any imposter syndrome, or did you feel alienated, or did you feel welcomed?

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I felt very welcomed. I would say living in Melbourne, so that's Victoria, is very similar to, I would say, California, if we're going to compare it to the US.

[: 00:17:49

Okay.

[: 00:17:50

So the people are very outgoing. They're very welcoming. They're out there, easygoing and helpful and all of that friendly. So it wasFor me, at first it was too much because I'm not used to that. Here, it's more of like, and my personality is like, I'm a shy person. I'm an introvert. I don't socialize as much, not even with family. I'm always with my books, just isolating myself with my books and my music and films.

[: 00:18:20

I can really relate to those.

[: 00:18:22

Yeah. Over there, they're very loud and they're very social, and I got social anxiety. It was too much for me at first because I didn't understand it. The accent was very intense and strong, the Australian accent, so it took me a while to even understand it. But then completely, I dwelled into the culture and into the society, the Australian society, and it just grew on me. But yeah, I would say like a mild suffering at the beginning because it was just something very new, and I felt like, Oh, what if I couldn't survive? Because it was my choice, and I had to go through a lot in order to achieve this dream and be independent and try this life here.

[: 00:19:17

Yeah. So this entire podcast is really about enlightening women's pathways through the industry. So I guess when you started being a barista to owning a coffee shop and you said that it wasn't really common, especially during that time in Abu Dhabi, for that to happen. At this point now, do you know many women-owned coffee shops in Abu Dhabi now?

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I do. Yeah, I do know a few. There is.

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On.

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The top of my head now there is a Noran who owns a cafe called Coffee Architecture. And I believe that now they're roasting their own beans as well. And she's a queue grader. And I can't remember many, but yeah, I know a few. I can send you the details later.

[: 00:20:17

I was curious to see if had that ever been a hindrance for you trying to build yourself in the coffee world? Did you ever feel like whether it was a discrimination towards race or if it was a discrimination towards your gender, did it ever make you rethink wanting to do coffee or had it ever caused an issue that you felt really confused by?

[: 00:20:46

Honestly, not at all. That's good. Yeah, not in Australia and not even here. When I came to the UAE, I had a very exciting journey when it comes to coffee. And it's still very interesting and exciting. And I keep meeting people from both genders in the industry and whatever. But when I first came to the UAE, I remember I visited in my Easter holiday, and that was in 2009 or 2010. And I came to know that there is something, a place called Coffee Museum in Dubai. I was like, Oh, my God. That was the period of obsession with coffee. Oh, my God, a coffee museum in Dubai, in my city. I have to go and visit. And then I visited. So I drove from Abu Dhabi to Dubai, and I made it. And it's located in one of the most exciting areas, historical areas in Dubai. It's my favorite to know. It's in Daira, a place called Daira. I don't know how much you know about Dubai, but it's by the canal, and it's old. It's like old shops and all those amazing ghetto restaurants and street food, all the good things you would find them there.

[: 00:22:08

And then there's the coffee museum. So I walked in and I didn't know what I was expecting, but then they had all the old machines and then they were doing Ethiopian coffee with the popcorn, and then they were doing the Turkish coffee on the sand. And they were doing all multiple types of coffee and basically telling you history about coffee. And at the time, the owner, who is now a very good friend of mine, was giving a tour. And I didn't know that he was the owner or he was the manager of the place. And so I was looking lost. I was there just looking around, touching things. I was fascinated. And then he asked me, he was like, Oh, can I help you? And he's. He's from Dubai. And I was like, Yeah, I've heard about this place. And I came to visit. And I'm really excited that we have such a thing in Dubai. And then he introduced himself and he told me that he was the owner of the place, and he was happy to give me a tour, and he gave me a tour. And I remember he gave me his card and he told me, Let's catch up.

[: 00:23:14

And I told him that I'm traveling the next day back to Melbourne, but I was going to come back. And then I seriously traveled. And then I came back in my next visit and I went back there. And then they were holding an event. I think it was an Airpress event. And the place was packed with all of the people in the coffee industry from the UAE, from Saudi, from Kuwait, from all over the Gulf region, from Lebanon, from Iran. And the place was packed. And then he introduced me. He started introducing me to everybody, even though he doesn't know me. He was like, oh, this is Zeinab. She is studying in Australia, and she's a barista over there, and she's very interested, blah, blah, blah. And I started talking to people and meeting people and just accumulating business cards and whatnot. And that was an introduction for me without me knowing it, like a facilitation into the coffee world when I come back. Yeah. And the funny thing, my partner now, and to the moment back, is one of those people that I was randomly introduced to in that event. Yeah. So I found the community very supportive and everywhere.

[: 00:24:32

Personally, I did not struggle at all being a woman or having no experience in the market here. It was such an empowering community and everybody wanted to help. So it just felt all smooth and no discrimination against gender. I didn't feel like I was... All the difficulties that I faced, I know that my other male friends did face as well in the industry. So it was nothing particular to my gender or anything else.

[: 00:25:06

Yeah, that's great. Well, that's funny how that all worked out.

[: 00:25:13

That's.

[: 00:25:15

A really nice story to hear, actually. So I guess I'm curious, because you didn't know me, what made you want to be... What made you want to... Like, especially from what it sounds like you saying that you're a private and more introverted person. I'm very curious too, since you really don't know me, what made you want to sit and talk with me?

[: 00:25:40

Because you're in the coffee industry and you're interested about people's stories and my background. Yes, I do coffee. Yes, I am in the F&B business, but my studies and my background is I'm a psychologist. So I'm very curious about people and about people's stories as well. So I'm always interested in getting to know people who are especially in the same industry and trying to exchange knowledge and experiences and the challenges, if any, exist. So it's true, I am an introvert, but it's just easier because we are behind... I'm hiding behind the screen, first of all. And it's interesting. We're talking about coffee. I appreciate.

[: 00:26:35

It.

[: 00:26:35

Joanne.

[: 00:26:40

That's really funny. I think it's really interesting. I think something quick. I'm Iraqi, so I'm from the Gulf, but I was born in Rachel. So I never really had a chance to visit. I would love to, but my family really didn't let me. But I think I'm very stereotypical for my people. I'm very loud, extroverted, which is funny because you said it's very much similar to Australian culture, which is like, Wow, I probably wouldn't have really much of a transition going there either, because I'm very very boisterous and very outgoing. It's funny because you do remind, which is funny, this is actually funny. You remind me of my cousin. Her name is Rehef, but her mother's name is Zeinab. It's like, Yeah.

[: 00:27:30

She's.

[: 00:27:31

Also very introverted and very private with herself, too. But yeah, no, I think like for me, I think the biggest part that also we can both agree on this is I just genuinely do love the coffee community, but I've always been very fascinated with the stories and wanting to know more about people's backgrounds and how they got to the point and where their connection lies within the coffee world for themselves. So you starting off not liking coffee at all and then enjoying it through a flat white, and then it accumulated over time to you finally going back home and opening. It's a mixture of both of yourself and what you loved and wanted to bring back home and show to people in your community too. So it came full circle for you. So yeah, that's great.

[: 00:28:26

And when I think back at it, like my childhood and all, it all makes sense, even though my family, typical Arabic family, they wanted me to become a doctor or an engineer. And I was like, Oh, I'm going to become a doctor. And that's what I started in Dubai. I actually studied medicine for four years, and I was like, Nope, that's not for me. I knew that from the first year, but there's pressure on you. It's like you have to continue what you've already started. And I was like, No, it's not for me, Derek. No, you have to. And then eventually, it was like, Nope, it's not for me. And then I decided psychology is another interesting thing, even though I wanted to become an artist.

[: 00:29:13

An.

[: 00:29:13

Artist? Wow. An artist. Yeah. So that was my thing since I was a kid. I was interested in art and food.

[: 00:29:21

That's great, honestly.

[: 00:29:23

Yeah. So it was like, I'm going to study psychology, and also I'm going to study digital media and film because I love films and I love art. And if I combine those two, then I can become a film director and I can make psychology thrilling films.

[: 00:29:42

That'd be awesome. I love those movies, too.

[: 00:29:46

Yeah. That was the plan. So I did study both. And then a whole new world opened up when I had that sip of coffee and I worked as a waitress. And I was like, okay, now I'm into the F&B. But as a kid, I used to always... So my mom is like a health freak, more or less. So as kids, I was not allowed to have ice cream, chocolates only like once a week and only one bar of chocolate. We were not allowed to have fast food. So it was always healthy. You're forced to eat your veggies and drink your cup of milk and all that. No cereal for you because it's full of unrefined sugar.

[: 00:30:30

But.

[: 00:30:32

My dad is the total opposite. My dad loves food. He's a chef, a home cook, and he's just very passionate about it. And then I was closer to my dad as a kid, and then I would always go out with him, and we would go and explore. And he would take me every time to a restaurant, a new restaurant. And then he would tell me, Don't tell your mom. And we would just try it together. And then I forgot completely about that memory. I think it's like my dad has a big influence on me with the passion for food and beverage and all of that with this thing. But then I diverted away from it because of the pressure to become a doctor. And then going back to Melbourne and doing the things that I love, I started discovering myself again. I was like, Actually, you know what? Without thinking about it, I think it was subconscious thing. I was like, Now I'm back to my authentic self, what I'm originally passionate about and interested in, because I left the industry. I don't do psychology anymore. And I quit my job, even though it was a horrible time when I quit, because when I decided to quit, COVID happened.

[: 00:31:43

I was like, Oh, great. Yeah.

[: 00:31:45

That's scary.

[: 00:31:47

Yeah. And that was a huge challenge. It was a very, very scary time because I quit my job in April 2020, and that's when all countries decided to lock down one after the other and then shutting down airports. And I did not imagine that it would escalate to that extent. And it was just the beginning for TTNB. It was the first year, and I felt like everything was like, I'm going to lose everything. I'm going to lose that place that I felt for myself. And that was a very scary idea to live with. I didn't want to think that, Oh, my God, I have failed. All my dreams and everything, I'm just going to lose it all at once. Because To the Moon and Back became like a community space, like everything I wanted. I'm so grateful and blessed to have all, I think 98 % of my friends now are all I met them at TTMB in the cafe. And they helped me set up the place. If you come and visit, you would notice all the details and esthetic and the place are actually from the people in the community. Like a person that I met, she made the pottery stuff.

[: 00:33:08

She made the plant pots for me. It's a handmade, and she was doing it from home. The clay plates and balls and all of that, that was the very beginning. And then another friend of mine, I met her also randomly online. And she resides in Jida, and she's the one who is supporting me doing all my illustrations and design because she's an illustrator and she's amazing, very talented. So I decided she's going to do all the designs for me, all the loyalty codes and the menu and whatnot. And then all the details, when you come into the place, you wouldn't know. But then if I would talk to you about it, every piece has a story and every piece is a contribution from someone in the community. Yeah. That is why the place is very special for me. It's not just a business. It's basically my life.

[: 00:34:03

Yeah. But it made it through?

[: 00:34:10

Yeah, I'm grateful it did make it through. Now we're trying to rebuild ourselves from again. But now I'm available full-time, so now I'm trying to be there and be more involved and other things because I'm the one who curates all the recipes as well. Right. Because I'm passionate about food, so whatever I make at home, if I like it, I was like, Oh, that could actually go on the menu. It could be special. Let's see if people like it. And I would just call my friends and go like, Hey, or I would put on Instagram, I'm doing tasting free food, come over. And if they approve it, if the majority likes it, they're like, Oh, it's going to go on the menu. I would train the staff, the kitchen staff, and then they're like, Okay, that's a new dish.

[: 00:34:59

I love that though. It seems like what you've created is something very empowering for obviously yourself, but the people surrounding you. And you've been able to meet so many different people through that experience, which is very wholesome also.

[: 00:35:20

Yeah, it's beautiful. I'm honestly very grateful for everybody. Everyone's support. We're all supporting each other because we're all start-ups and small businesses, and we've fought the odds, especially the girls, like in this and the Gulf, fight the odds and be independent and start something that not every family is going to encourage, especially when it comes to business and being independent, because it's risky and it's something new. But what makes me happy is I started seeing more and more girls being courageous and taking those steps towards being independent and following their passion and doing what they want to do. And honestly, they're doing an amazing job. I have some other friends who are supporting me as well by calling me. Today, for example, one of my friends is getting married, and he decided to have us as TTNB cater for the wedding. So we have a tiny booth and we're serving coffee to the guests at the reception. So that was very cute.

[: 00:36:33

That is cute. That's nice. I like the fact that it's more than just the business. It's like this has become a lifestyle for you also.

[: 00:36:43

Yeah, pretty much.

[: 00:36:45

There's like so much actual gratification for you, I feel like, with the people who are involved, the people you keep meeting, what you keep creating for women and other people as well. Where would you like to the moon and back to go from here?

[: 00:37:07

Honestly, I have high hopes for to the moon and back. I wanted to become an international brand, and I wanted to become an empowering tool for everybody around the world. Not necessarily they need to do exactly what I did, but everything is possible. Like me as a girl who's coming from small family in Abu Dhabi and being born in a time where girls were not allowed to do many things independently. And it's like I fought all the odds and the circumstances. I still kept on holding on that dream of mine, and eventually I was able to make it happen. And honestly, when I look back at my life and the circumstances and looking at myself and where I've reached today, I believe that a lot of people can do it and they can follow their dreams. We live only once. So for me, I feel like if I spread my story, and I'm pretty sure there are lots of amazing stories, and sometimes you get stuck in a place mentally where you feel like there's no way out or you cannot do this, or you have to give up and you have to go by the norms and do what everybody else is doing just in order to survive.

[: 00:38:27

But that's not the case. We live only once, and we need to make it a life worth living. So if you do what you love and you keep on fighting for it, eventually you'll find a way. And if that did not work out, I'm pretty sure that other doors will open where you will discover new questions and then it will lead you somewhere more beautiful rather than forcing yourself to live in a certain way or to do certain things just because people think that's the right thing to do or that's what's available at the moment. That's the easy reach.

[: 00:39:01

Yeah, I think it's really interesting hearing your story now, thinking back how many doors you actually went in and out of. Obviously, you still incorporate artistic abilities that you have still, but having gone through the medical program for a while and then you wanted to do film and then do psychology and then all these things. I think that there's no linear way to go on a path, especially since now you found something that aligns with you and your spirit and what you want to accomplish out of your life and what you want to help other people find themselves because I don't know, coffee shops also are like a safe haven. They're a safe place for people to decompress, take a step out of their own realities and their own lives to either meet new people or understand and find themselves or take a minute to sit back and breathe and take a break. I think based off of just what I'm listening to, it sounds like the integrity of To the Moon and back has a lot of potential to grow into something really beautiful for not just Abu Zhabi but hopefully for the rest of what you're trying to accomplish globally.

[: 00:40:20

I really hope so because I dream of all the coffee people who are really passionate about what they're doing because coffee is making a difference in people's lives. And as we said, it's not just the beverage. There are lots of other factors that come together. And then meeting people like you and the other people that I met in the industry, whether here in Dubai, during certain events or just randomly in cafes when traveling the world, it's very nice for us all to come together, even if we are in different locations across the globe. It's nice for us to be connected in a certain way and for our businesses to have maybe collaborations and exciting things every now and then and share ideas and learn from each other's experiences just to have that connection.

[: 00:41:13

I guess I'm also curious that during the duration of your journey to get to this point, did you have somebody who helped you inspirationally? Did you have a role model or was there a specific memory that you had where someone sat you down and gave you really good advice that has stuck with you to where you're at now?

[: 00:41:34

Honestly, it's a group of people and a group of events. It's very complex. It's all the experiences that I've went through. And even though I'm an introvert, but when I travel, suddenly I become an extrovert. I just start to talk to random people. And I have met so many interesting people. For example, I went to Indonesia and in Jakarta, I just walked into this cafe that was very, very tiny because it was raining outside. And it turned out that it's one of the specialty coffees over there. It was very interesting. It had a black cat. The owner had a black cat, which was just roaming around in the bar, like it owns the place. And then every cup was different than the other. So it was a collection of cups that he got from everywhere. And then he was just doing drip coffee. And we just had a chat. And his English was not very good, but we still did have a chat. And then there was another customer who started translating. And then we exchanged ideas. And then through him, I got to meet another lady roaster in Indonesia. So he gave me the details.

[: 00:42:53

He gave me the address. And I went to her the next day, and I got to meet her. And we did coffee cupping. And it was just very nice. And then she told me about a farm where she gets her coffee beans from. And I was like, Oh, I'm going to Bali next. So I'm going to go to that farm, which was very close to Bali. And then I went to the farm and I told them about this lady that I met. And it was very nice. It was just very random. I did not plan for all of that, but it was just, I don't know. I love it. It's just very exciting. We just go unprepared and then you meet all those amazing people who are passionate and they're very helpful and they give you tips about where to find the best and go and meet this farmer and go and meet this person. And that opened another window for me to be interested in coffee roasting, which is something that I'm learning now and I'm planning to learn more about because I would love to start roast my own coffee, but I'm planning to visit more farms and start meeting a lot of farmers and roasters from around the world as well as much as I can in order to get to learn more about their experience.

[: 00:44:07

Yeah. What's great about the coffee industry as a whole, because there's so many facets to it and it's constantly evolving and constantly transforming, and the people that you meet just based off of what that sounded like, it was so spontaneous and there's a certain wander loss. There's a certain level of adventure that comes through the coffee world where it's just like it's eye-opening, it's thought-provoking, and it creates such good stimulating conversations with people who are genuinely also interested in having very intellectually stimulating conversations. Yeah, I love that experience. That's a beautiful experience. It just seems so genuine and so kind and it seems very... I'm glad that it opened a lot of doors with trying to understand coffee roasting as a whole because coffee roasting is very interestingsomething like little subgenre of the coffee world after having been a coffee roaster now for over a year. There's a lot of interesting little knacknacks within this world.

[: 00:45:15

Exactly. And also another point about the coffee world, which I like, is we are very connected. We are all one community. And you know those days, life is getting harder and harder because of social media and the news and you're exposed to a lot of noise around the world, and it seems like it's all gloomy. So some days, personally, I would lose faith in humanity. I was like, Oh, my God. Life is becoming so stressful, and it's just becoming more difficult, and then financial, blah, blah, blah, politics. But when you interact with people in the coffee community, you're like, Oh, my God, they're so nice. There's good in the world, and they're all helping each other, and they're all doing good things and wanting to... They're very passionate about what they're doing and it's just exciting and they're keeping this world exciting. And it's like, no, people are nice.

[: 00:46:21

Yeah. I think that there is a cliché in the coffee community that people stay because of the people, not because of the money. But it rings throughout always. As much as we hate cliché, it's just there's something about just the coffee community and the coffee people and the people involved, whether it's the farmers, the producers, the importers, the baristas, the roasters, everything. Every aspect of what involves getting coffee from origin to the consumer that it's a conglomerate of so many beautiful kinds of people. A lot of the time it's just people who genuinely are artists, are extremely talented, are extremely intelligent, and it mixes really well.

[: 00:47:09

Yeah. They think they're very kind about sharing their experiences. And that's what I love as well. There is a healthy competition, I would say. I'm not trying to romanticize the copy world or anything. I know there's a bad side everywhere, but the majority of it is very helpful. It's a healthy competition, I would say.

[: 00:47:35

Have you always enjoyed being a barista?

[: 00:47:38

Yes, I really enjoyed it because as an introvert, it taught me not just to love coffee, but to have interesting conversations and open up to people. So it started with me forcing myself to interact with customers with a lot of anxiety that I buried inside me and I suppressed. But then it started becoming more of a normal thing, and I started enjoying it because I would see regulars. Regularsars helped a lot.

[: 00:48:06

Yeah.

[: 00:48:07

And then they would start asking about you, and then you would look forward to seeing them every day and putting a smile on their face by remembering their name and their order because they would order the same thing every day. And then it starts from there. And I started becoming more assertive with the challenging customers, for example, that I had space in the cafe. And it just improved me as a person, I think. And it helped me break that a lot of the anxiety, the social anxiety that I have and the shyness, and just made me a better person, more open to meeting new people and learning about things. And it helped with my journey to independence because it's a tough work. It's not easy to be on your feet all day as a barista and trying to keep up with the rush, especially if you're working in a busy place.

[: 00:49:03

I guess if somebody was to come up to you and ask you for advice, what would be the best advice you think you could give somebody who would want to say, for example, I bet you get this a lot, but if people are like, Oh, my God, your entire score is so inspirational. How you got here, I'm so inspired. If I wanted to do the same thing that you're doing, what would you recommend I do?

[: 00:49:29

Honestly, what I always tell people is be true to yourself. Try to stay authentic. Don't compare yourself to other people. Try to focus on your goals. What do you want? If you started looking left and right and going like, Oh, my God, there's a lot of competition. There's a new cafe every single day. I don't know if I will be able to survive then you will not be able to move forward. But if you focus on enjoying the journey and just not thinking about the results and just go Okay, I'm going to do it. I'm going to enjoy it. Seriously enjoy it. And if someone comes to you and go like, Oh, my God, this happened to me. I think two or three coffee shops open next to me, we're at next door, and everybody was like, Oh, my God. Zia, there's a new addit. Did you see the new cafe? It's going to be a win for you. It's like a customer-based. I don't care. Everybody is doing their own thing. I have my clientele. They're going to have their own clientele. And it doesn't matter. I still enjoy what I'm doing. And I'm not doing it for, as we said, there's so much of a appreciate it.

[: 00:50:36

I'm not doing it for the money, just for the money. I'm actually enjoying. I look forward to waking up and going to my cafe and just smelling the coffee and learning about the new coffees that we're importing and meeting new people and just catching up with my friends. So just focus on that. Be authentic and true to yourself and enjoy what you're doing. And eventually you will have your own story to tell.

[: 00:50:58

I think that advice can actually apply to everything outside of the coffee world, to be honest. Yeah. Like whatever somebody decides to do with their life, I think that's just really good overall advice. I think the thing that stood out to me the most and I have been victim to this, is the idea of not comparing yourself to other people's success and measuring your success through other people. Because it's really easy to forget everyone's journeys are different, everyone's lengths of the journeys are different. The idea that society as a whole likes to put a lot of emphasis on age and what you've accomplished in terms of age and where you land at, and it's so intimidating and true. It makes you motivated to work hard to try, especially people who want to change direction from careers. Like if someone's leaving finances or something that is extremely stable to something that is food industry service run like the coffee world, it's really hard to find the motivation. But I think that it's really good to understand the concept of not comparing yourself to other people and to stay true to yourself. I think that's pretty solid advice.

[: 00:52:24

Thank you. That's why I also don't tell people what I'm doing until it's done because people create a lot of noise that can make me doubt myself sometimes. Because they look at things from their perspective. But what we forget is that I am the one who is passionate about this project. They don't have the same passion. So they would look at it from another perspective. It's good to have other perspectives as well. But we need to remember that they don't see the same way that I see it as well. So their risk assessment is different than mine.

[: 00:52:59

Do you feel like it was... I'm sorry. No, go ahead.

[: 00:53:03

No, I mean, that's it. For them. It doesn't have the same meaning that it has for me. So at the end of the day, the importance level is different.

[: 00:53:11

So I think the last thing I really am curious about in terms of this is like, how is it building yourself up as a businesswoman? It seems like understanding coffee being integrated into the coffee world and taking in all of that information has been a positive attribute for you and you've had a lot of support with that. I guess I'm curious for somebody who did transition through different careers and tried to find herself again. What was it like building yourself up and being like, Okay, I'm going to open my own business and all of the steps to becoming a businesswoman and to now having gone through COVID and having been affected through that as a business, how is the journey of being a businesswoman been for you so far?

[: 00:53:56

Very difficult. As much as I'm enjoying it, it's very difficult and it continues to be. It's never easy. Because you come like you are different as an individual and you have your idea, especially as a creative person. You want to make something that doesn't exist, for example, or you want to make something new and people are scared of new things. So when you want to do it, there are lots of other things involved, like, for example, approvals and going through all of that, the paperwork and then people questioning, it's like, Why would you do that? Why wouldn't you just do this? Because everybody does this. I was like, That's exactly why I don't want to do it, because I'm not like everybody else. I want to have my own thing. So it's very, very difficult and exhausting at times to fight back until you convince people that I want to do something different. And I understand that it's difficult, but I am willing to do it. I don't want to do it the easy way because I'm planning... My goal is different and things that I want to achieve and bring to the table are different.

[: 00:55:06

So it's not easy to fight. It's just easier sometimes to give up and go like, Okay, you know what? I'll do whatever everyone else is doing. But that's not what I want. I can't sleep at night if I did that. And there are times where I doubted myself because I had no business background. None of my family members own businesses and are familiar with business, so I didn't have anyone to go to when I decided to open a business. I just literally just did it. And I had to do a lot of research about interior design, and I didn't have enough money as well. So I ended up just going shopping myself. And I freaked out. I was like, Oh, my God, it's going to look so ugly, because in my head, it looks nice, but I don't have the end result. So I got every piece of furniture from somewhere according to my budget. And then I ordered some of the stuff from Etsy, like the lights and stuff like that. And I was like, Oh, my God. Am I going to be able to find someone to install all of these things for me?

[: 00:56:20

And is the end result going to look nice or it's going to look chaotic? And then I had moments of that. I was like, No, I can't do it. So I'm just going to give up. I'm going to sell the place or I'm going to sell the furniture and everything else. And I'm blessed to have some friends around and some people who I can go to and they convinced me to keep going. And sometimes when I face some difficulties, let's say after COVID happened, a lot of the logistics, a lot of the rules and policies around the logistics have changed, which is a nightmare, honestly. So the shipping cost is much, much higher with the inflation as well, the fuel prices, every time the fuel price goes up, the shipment goes in a higher, which means that I cannot import some of the beans that I used to get. So I have to make last-minute changes and try to find new suppliers and everything is just so expensive. So these difficulties, some of them are exhausting and challenging, but at the end of the day, you have to keep fighting for what you love and try to make it work and submit to certain circumstances until you find a solution around it.

[: 00:57:43

So it's never easy. But if you love what you're doing, then I guess there are some good days and there are some bad days.

[: 00:57:52

Yeah, I think it goes to show if you really love what you do, you'll fight for it. At the end of the day, it won't seem like work. I mean, it is work. How do I describe that? It is work. But when it's something you love to do, you're not viewing it as a load of baggage. It's more like, okay, so these are just steps to getting to the end result. I think that- Exactly. I love that you mentioned how you source some of the items that are in your store. Because I think that in general, like being a small business, it's like that's not just only one situation that's happened. I think over the course of many small businesses, they do their best to try and source from what they can with what they got.

[: 00:58:48

Yeah. It's a fun journey, and it's important to think to know that nothing is as... Nothing is going to stay the way it is. So there's always room for progress. There's always room for growth. And the way I started is completely different. I started four years ago, and we just celebrated our fourth year. It's a completely different place in terms of esthetics, in terms of the things that I'm offering, in terms of the people, the customers. Everything changes to the better. That's great.

[: 00:59:32

That's really interesting when you look back every year and see where it started to where it's going.

[: 00:59:37

Yeah. And one of the cute things, like a cute story, just this is random, has nothing to do with it. But during lockdown, the regular customers were missing the place so much, which I was telling other people as well, that to them when I'm back is a blessing and a curse at the same time, because a lot of the cafes and restaurants were able to depend on delivery during lockdown. But for me, people loved coming to the space and enjoying the esthetics of the place and the music and the whole vibe. So they wouldn't order. So delivery didn't work for me because, first of all, I'm not going to deliver coffee.

[: 01:00:21

Don't ask me to do it.

[: 01:00:23

Yeah, I'm not going to do that. You need to enjoy it fresh. And it just didn't make sense to a lot of people to order because they want to come to the space and enjoy it. So that was a curse for me during lockdown. But anyways, we survived that. But one of the things that one of the customers did, I don't know if the US was the same thing, but Animal Crossing, I think it's called, it became very popular.

[: 01:00:48

Yeah.

[: 01:00:50

I didn't play that game, but she's a friend of mine. So what she did is she created To the and I'm back and we're crossing. And she put a sign that says To the Moon and Back. That was the cutest thing ever. And then she sent it to me. Yeah, she sent it to me. So I took it, and then I printed the picture and I framed it with the date because it has the tiny date of the lockdown. And now I have it at T. T. M. B. I just-.

[: 01:01:22

Oh, my God. I love that.

[: 01:01:23

It's so cute. It's so cute.

[: 01:01:28

Oh, my God.

[: 01:01:29

So when you see people relating to the space to that degree, it's just like, for me, that's enough. It makes me happy.

[: 01:01:38

I was going to say that just goes to show what you've made matters for people to try and obviously replicate it in a way so that it's not forgotten that it doesn't get abandoned. And I love that you framed it.

[: 01:01:55

It's so cute. Yeah. And that's one of the things when you asked me if there was a person who gave me an advice or supported me during tough times, and I answered that it's complex. So this is one of the things that kept me going, the little gestures that reminded me how much people relate to the space. And it's not just important to me that people can relate to it in a very positive and very beautiful way as well. So all of that kept me going and fighting.

[: 01:02:28

I love that. I love that story. That's cute. I would love to see the space one day just to sit and listen to you tell me the stories of everything that's in there. That's amazing.

[: 01:02:39

Yeah. I would love for you to come and visit.

[: 01:02:42

One day. I have a family in Abu Dhabi, so it's not like I couldn't go. It's like getting there.

[: 01:02:49

Yeah, that's perfect then. Maybe you can come for the next World of Coffee event in Dubai.

[: 01:02:55

That'd be so much fun. I would really wonder what that would be like.

[: 01:02:59

Because I haven't hadvery interesting.

[: 01:03:01

I haven't had that much exposure to the coffee community as much as I'd like to because everything is so... I'm located in the Midwest of the United States. I'm located in a state called Ohio. Oh, in Ohio. Everything is usually on the East Coast or on the West Coast. Yeah. Kind of awkwardly placed in places that's not convenient to travel to either or.

[: 01:03:28

Yeah.

[: 01:03:29

So... Yeah.

[: 01:03:31

I think Where is now is becoming a very popular... Is it Oregon?

[: 01:03:37

Yeah. It's on the West Coast.

[: 01:03:39

Yeah, and San Fran. Yeah. So I met a woman in the coffee industry as well from Barista Magazine who did an interview with me. And then she came to visit during the World of Coffee event in Dubai. And she came to TPMB and she was telling me about the Roaster Guild that happens in San Fran every year where all roasters come together and exchange information, which was something that I'm interested in attending one day. I think it happens every year in August.

[: 01:04:20

Yeah, so I actually went to the one last year, but it wasn't in California. It was in Wisconsin.

[: 01:04:26

Oh, okay.

[: 01:04:27

That was a really amazing experience to be able to meet so many different types of people there. And yeah, it is a roasters retreat, so you get to play around with different roasters as a whole. Some of them are just state of the art. They just came out. But yeah, no, it was a really interesting experience. I've met all of my really good contacts from that experience. It's really interesting when we all sit and talk and debate about it because it's not just the teachers that attend. A lot of people are either representatives of their coffee brand or their importers or their Q graders. So it's like a very diverse group.

[: 01:05:11

Yeah, I would love to attend that one day. Maybe this year or next year. I don't know. We'll see.

[: 01:05:19

Well, I appreciate you talking to me and like telling me.

[: 01:05:22

About you. Thank you for inviting me. And thank you for inviting me.

[: 01:05:24

Yeah. I will not hold you any longer. I know that it's late over there, so I appreciate you talking to me and hopefully one day down the road or paths will cross and I get an opportunity to go to your shop, shop in to the moon and back and get to sit and talk and have coffee with you.

[: 01:05:46

Yeah, and if I happen to find myself in Ohio, I.

[: 01:05:49

Don't know. I don't really hope.

[: 01:05:51

You don't.

[: 01:05:54

Well, you have a great rest of your night. And I will be in touch.

[: 01:05:59

Thank you so much, Alana. It was fun talking to you.

[: 01:06:03

Thank you. Have a good night.