Yoga teaches leaders self awareness, rugby teaches leaders relationship awareness.

Alison covers yoga (and also draws on 35 years of working with me, I have always thought that without yoga Alison would have abandoned me long ago). She covers the groundwork, prioritising, pushing yourself while knowing your limits. She also talks about really “thinking about leadership” before you jump in. Fascinating.

Kelly covers rugby, as she should after captaining so many international teams. She talks about the threads you have to weave between you and every member of the team individually. And about the role of the leader in nurturing and protecting the “positive energy”

She agrees with Alison about thinking about your leadership before and after the game. But adds during the game don't overthink, because while you do they other side will score.

This is a fascinating insight into leadership from women drawing from their activities outside work.

Julia Middleton 0:01

Allison 2:08

I think that a lot of people believe that yoga is just about twisting yourself into some kind of human pretzel. But actually, it's much more than that. I really think there's a lot of relevance to leadership. And certainly, as someone who's practice yoga for many years now, I've found it hugely helpful to me in my leadership journey. The term yoga actually means yog, the idea of bringing together the body and the mind. So you imagine yourself riding two horses, body and mind, you're trying to get them to work in harmony, when you're doing yoga, and in leadership, I mean, we sometimes feel we're probably riding more than two horses, maybe four or five.

Julia Middleton 2:55

Four or five horses sounds just about right, Allison. I know you've got a great list of leadership learnings from yoga, it would be fantastic to go through them. Because it's one of the big issues that women are looking, the members of the expedition, looking at. This combination of mind and body and how they come together in leadership. So take us through your list.

Allison 3:23

First of all about doing the basics. In yoga, you know, you, you think you want to turn yourself into a human pretzel. But actually what you have to do at the beginning is the basics, very simple positions. And I remember being very annoyed with my yoga teacher who said that I couldn't do complex positions at the beginning, because I just wasn't prepared. And it's exactly the same in leadership, you know, you have to learn to chair a meeting, right a budget, lead a team, speak effectively. And if you can't do those things, if you don't have the groundwork there, you're not going to be able to really fly at the next stage as a leader, you know, it's always going to trip you up. And it's exactly the same in yoga, you know, you have to do the basics. I'm sure people who play musical instruments say something similar. The second thing is about is thinking, thinking about it. I mean, when I can't practice my yoga, and sometimes, you know, you just can't you're too busy or whatever. I really think about it and think about what I'm going to do. And in leadership, you know, we're human beings, not human doings, and we sort of need to sometimes think really carefully about what we're about to do not just do it and thinking about it can be hugely important to our effectiveness. There are really examples in sports so you know, the there's a there's evidence now that sports people who train by just thinking about what they're going to achieve, actually develop the muscle mass that enables them to be better. And they'll, you know, think of the soccer player standing on the sports field, who doesn't actually kick the ball at all, thinks about kicking the ball. And this is well known in, sports practice. So, thinking is really important. One that I think it's really important is awareness. In yoga, it's about developing your awareness of your body, and your mind, and how they work together. And how you are today as you do your practice. And I think awareness in leadership is crucial in two ways. One, developing your own self awareness, what is your impact on others? What are your strengths and weaknesses, you know, you need to think about how you're going to build on your strengths, but you may not be able to do everything, you need people with you, who can support you, and compensate, if you like, for your weaknesses. You know, if you're not brilliant at building strategic plans, you need someone who can help you to do that. So self awareness is crucial, but also is awareness of what's going on around you, you know, sensing your environment, knowing what people are thinking and how they're reacting to what you're doing, you know, if you don't read the room properly in that crucial meeting, then you may not achieve your goals. So I think building awareness is one of the things I've learned most from yoga, and I think is absolutely critical as a leader. I think many people think that as women, you know, we're particularly good at this, but and we may have an aptitude for it, but we really need to develop it, and work on it. Because it's it's a crucial skill. The next one is, pushing and accepting. You know, when you start out doing yoga, you think, oh, right, I'm gonna be able to turn myself into human pretzel. In fact, you may not be able to, you may not actually have that bodily aptitude to do it. But you can try and push and you must try and push. So leadership is just the same to, you know, you need to find those opportunities to test what you're good at, it may turn out that you're not a financial genius. But you need to be financial literate, and you need to push yourself to develop that. But in other areas, and to do the finance really effectively, you're going to need to find an accountant to support you. I know in yoga that if you don't challenge yourself, you never know what you can do. But on the other hand, you do some to have sometimes have to allow the other person to become the human pretzel, rather than you and accept that they have to do that. And you do something different.

Allison 8:01

And finally prioritising one of the things I've learned most from yoga is it gives you the space and the time and the reflection to really consider what's most important. You know, you allow certain thoughts to float to the surface, and others to float away. And I think as women we're often really having many, many priorities. we're wrestling with too many challenges at the same time, and having a way of reflecting and giving yourself the time to figure out what's really important and what is your most important goal is hugely valuable. It certainly has been for me.

Julia Middleton 8:51

Thank you, Alison, you can see what I mean about the richness of the content, the sheer volume of points, but let's carry on now quickly to Kelly, you'll spot quite quickly Kelly does not like talking about herself, or analysing her own leadership, she was entirely forced. I pinned her arm behind her back. But in the end, she just jumped in. She jumped in the deep end and rolled out her leadership learning in a way that's hugely compelling. Kelly, Allison is yoga that's individual. You are rugby, thats team. Tell, tell, tell me what that teaches you about leadership.

Kelly 9:37

I totally agree with Allison. Leadership is about self. But it's also on the other hand about others. So in particular relationships. So when he asked the question to me, how do you lead a team and in my particular context, leading a team sport. As Alison said, it is about awareness in her yoga context, self awareness, and mine, leading sport team is about the relationship awarness. And so through my experience captaining my national rugby side and also leading in other teams sports. I've always been curious, with intriguing question, what is leadership in a team sport context. We have a Maori proverb over here in New Zealand, where I live, with what is the most important thing in the world. And it's about people, its people and its people. And in leadership relationship is first and foremost. So, team sports gives us that relationship practice over and over and over again, you can only imagine how many opportunities you have to build relationships, work on relationships within a game, you may have a relationship moment with two people with three people with four people. But it's hundreds and hundreds of hours of practice that we get that relationship. And as a previous sport leader, and captain, coach, like through my experience, there's a number of factors that really contribute to leading these effective relationships in a team sport setting. And by far number one in leading relationships is connection. So if you can connect to every single player on that field in some way that shows them that they care, you'll create connection and a positive culture. So as a captain, I really made an effort to connect every teammate in some different way than way than others. In some ways, it may be joking. Other ways, it may be an empowering way. But it's that connection between you and them that is different than anyone else. For example, one of my teammates, and I played in a club team in Sydney for years, and we played the Singapore National Team. That game was her, she, she must have scored about eight tries for my sport and rugby. And she knew it, she was she was absolutely awesome in that game. And so when we went to back to play for Canada, we'd have a general call that we'd do for the team. And I just kind of look at her and I just say Singapore. And she just gave me the nod and a smile and have a little giggle. And then yeah, just really empowered that moment. So that special connection that me and her shared was really important.

You have to form that in different ways with each individual.

Yes, yes, yes, yes. So and that, and that's what is so exciting about it about leadership, I find as a leader is it's that little like, it's kind of like a play area, hey, it's like what, how can I connect with that person in that person, when they're so different? And I guess a secondly, communication has to be clear. So team sports gives us that unique experience to explore uncertainty over and over again. So every time we start, we actually don't know the outcome, we can prepare as much as we want. But there's just so many complex different things that happen in a game that anybody can be winning at any time. So communication in the moment, which is clear, and especially heard by the team is paramount. And what I mean by heard is that there's recognition by everyone, that we're still on the same page and moving forward to our vision. So whether you're in a leadership sense, you're in a board, when you make that clear communication, that that nod or that eye contact is really important to understand that we're all on this together.

You also used an expression with me, which fascinated me is, which is that if you communicate well, you bring the uncertainty down? Do you always need to keep the uncertainty down?

To a certain extent, I think to control those negative emotions, hey, so if you can just communicate just enough so that they have some of those positive emotions and knowing that we're kind of still connected, we still have all those connections. So really, yeah, when those all those connections are connected, it feels good. There's synergy with the team, if uncertainity tries to break those connections. So just that kind of little that we are all still connected through just little bits of cute clear communication can really help.

Give me an example.

Example within a game would be if we just got scored upon. And we now know that we only have four minutes to try and to win the game. And so that clear communication. So now now we've kind of had that little bit of synergy broken, the negative emotions are coming in, the pressures, the uncertainty whether we're going to win or not. So just clear little bits of communication, as many communication that you can get to every single person on that on that field. And it might just be like, C'mon, let's let's do it. Eye contact, nonverbal, will just bring all that complexity connections together.

Or patting somebody on the shoulder or waving, or making silly smiley face that everybody knows. Yeah, it's, and you try and do that with every individual on.

Yeah, it's a quick moment. And sometimes it's just a little wave. And, and one of my teammates used to say, Kelly knew that if you just, you know, flipped your ponytail one way at me, I knew that I was okay that we are still connected. It was just a real interesting synergy between us as a team.

And some people might say, but you haven't got time to do that.

There's always time there's always a moment. Hey, there's always a moment that you can do that. And it might not be within that 10 seconds. But there is an always a moment somewhere, that's what I love about leadership is, there is a moment, there is always a moment that you can actually connect to that person.

And flick your ponytail. I love it. I love it, keep going, keep going.

So one of the related and also on that communication, what we're talking about. And I guess what we had just kind of brought up is that nonverbal communication so that flick of ponytail is a perfect example of that nonverbal communication. You know, that phrase, keep your head up when a mistake has happened, is just just so important for a leader, my coach always said, you know, head up, chest up, looking forward, and whenever those negative emotions start to come on. So that was an example that and I always remember that when you get into times and leadership times, whatever you're doing out there is head up, chest up, eyes floored. And everybody kind of just follows that, again, what we talked about is that synergy. So another really important aspect relating relationships is, don't overthink this is what probably one of the number one one of the most important things I've learned in leading sport teams. You know, if you overthink, they'll score while you're thinking. So thinking in the moment, also known as that reflection and action kind of thing. So important as a leader and team, like how quickly you react to turning a negative into a positive will help define you as that leader and hopefully move you forward towards as your team move forward towards the vision on what you want to do. And in our case, winning a game.

That's rather different from what Allison said, isn't it? Because Allison is saying, think about your leadership. But she means I suppose, think about how you're gonna lead before you go into the game. Yeah. And then when you're in the game, don't overthink it.

Yeah, it's that reflection, like thinking before and thinking after. But reflection, thinking in the game is just kind of a different construct, isn't it? It's just really, yeah. And and on that it's, you know, reframing that so you have to reframe that decision very, very quickly. So example of this is that we were playing the USA in a test match, and the referee was penalising every time we tried to go into the, to get the ball and into the ruk in rugby, we call it a ruk where we contest the ball. And I guess after the third penalty, I had to bring the team in really quickly. And this is this reframing this context. And I said, we're going to create a situation where we take the referee out so they can't actually make this call. The decision came from me, it didn't come from the coaches. I'm a big believer in collective leadership. But I do believe that there's certain times in certain moments where we need to make these these calls and reframe them really quickly.

Would do you mean take the referee out, you're gonna go knock them over or something?

No, take the referee out of the decision making. So the referee was controlling our emotions at that time. So I think right in the moment, what's controlling us? Let's take the control that part out. Yeah, so we did. Yeah, so we did and we didn't, and we didn't go into any rec rec situation. And for anyone that knows rugby, that was not fun for a lot of players, because some of the players that is what they play rugby for us to go into this contests. So try not making that reframing that decision in the moment was really, really important for that, that that part. So which follows me on to my last point, as a leader, you don't avoid the hard decisions. To choose avoidance as a leader is still manipulative control with you. And that's not authentic. So what I mean by that is that you don't, that hard decision that I had to make at that time to say, hey, we're not going in, we're not going to contest it, we're taking the referees controlling factor out of it. And that was on my own. I just had to make it at that point. So you do have to make hard decisions at times as a leader. And as much as I as I said, I believe in that collective leadership, I do believe there's those those moments that leaders really need to stand out and make those hard decisions.

And you've earned the right to make them by building relationships.

Yes, and probably that's an what leads on to probably my last point is trust. So, you know, trust, build that trust so that your team trust you to lead. How you build that trust, is probably the million billion dollar question now, but through some of the aspects that I've mentioned here, but also the context that you're in. It's that feeling that you have the individuals, it's making that connection. And again, it's about people and it's about people and it's about people. So I do know, within my core that I that I believe humiliation is a fast track to losing trust within your teammates. So really important that when you get in that situation, because you've built this trust, that before you react, you take that breath, you know you take Allison's yoga technique which is absolutely awesome to bring into a sport. You empathise and you reframe. It's that reframe so.

Hang on, what do you mean humiliating?

So when you humiliate, so if showing someone's made a mistake, humiliating by letting them know that you've made that mistake, but also amplifying it to the team, that person's made that mistake, so that can just crush a person in a second. And that's not what you need. And as we talked before those, connecting that synergy within that team and those connections that will break one connection very, very quickly.

And there's no, there's no coming back from that?

No and and if you do ever get in that situation, because people do get in that situation, it will just be a long, long process of lots of conversations with them. And trying to build that trust again. So the best way is to not get into that situation. But it does happen.

I suppose you destroy the trust with the individual, but you also destroy the trust with the whole team, because the team have seen you do it.

Yep, yep, yep. And if they have not seen you in that situation that can do a lot of damage as a leader, definitely. And it's just restarting from the beginning again.

Now play women in all of this.

I guess, as a woman, we were born into relationship building, how we are socially constructed as women. So there's a sport saying that 10,000 hours of practice makes an expert in a skill. And as women, we've reached those 10,000 hours of relationship skills by the time we were probably eight years old. So this means that woman, and all of us have that edge, because for whatever reasons, women have had lots of practice at relationships. All those 10,000 hours, we have done our 10,000 hours. So relationships are ingrained in women and ingrained in leadership. And what team sport is brought to leadership is what women have been building, just being woman. So it's time for us to realise that we're what we're looking for in leaders is actually in our foundation, as women.

You really believe that?

I believe that? Yep. I believe that. And I don't think we often put our hand up, you know, going into interviews, going into boardrooms and saying, Actually, I have 10,000 hours of skill of relationship practices. You know, move over, move over. I know this stuff. This is my foundation. I really believe that. I don't think we give us enough credit.

Now, now. It's interesting, because you now sometimes you play in a man's team, don't you? Is that very different?

And it's been very eye opening because I play in a men's rugby team. And it's golden oldies, which is over 35. But it's but the style of play, the power and the control has, I realised how much different it is in playing in a men's game, which is funny and like just just as life is in a men's game versus a woman's game. So when I play with the men's game, I play this position halfback where I need to pass them I kind of do the controlling behind all the contact. And we will play probably 80 minutes of give me the ball, Kell, give me the ball, give me the ball, I want to run over people, give me the ball, give me the ball. And there's eight other people that never touched the ball because this, they always want to have the ball and run over. It's that individual power control. I want to have the ball, let me have the ball. As opposed to when I play with woman it is you know, give me ball, Kell. There'll be a couple, give me the ball, Kell. Okay, let's move over so the rest of us can, can go with it now. So it's really been interesting to see the different dynamics, those power dynamics within playing in a game of rugby.

But for you the heart of leadership is building relationships.

Yeah, yeah. Building relationships because that builds the connections, that builds the synergy, that builds trust. Yeah, yeah. It's the people, it's the people, it's the people.

Thank you, Kelly. That was fantastic. So two different angles, isn't it? Allison on getting the basics right? On thinking about leadership before you do it, on self awareness, on balancing the pushing yourself and covering yourself knowing that you can't do everything and you can't see every angle and then the prioritising. That is a fantastic yoga list, Allison. Allison and I worked for each with each other with each other for over 35 years and still do. We are totally different from each other . It is quite funny we we would often agree who's going to which meeting, because Allison had this absolutely ability to calm things down. And to see things straight. And an I was put in, when you wanted to do the opposite, of when the job was to wind things up and push things, crazily, and perhaps, sometimes unreasonably. The, it's funny listening to Kelly talking about the threads. The thread between Alison and I, we developed it well over the years. And there were some very funny moments when both of us just watched people who were trying to sever the threads between us, we just simply laugh at them, as we watch them try to achieve the impossible. Kelly's point about threads, and forming the threads across a team, I think are really, really interesting. It's a very interesting way of looking at it. And, and one of the big jobs of the leader is to create those threads, to tender those threads and to care for those threads. And for that, for what to watch out for the things that might try to sever them like referees who get in the way, or watching for the things that you yourself might do that, that risk, severing the threads. And, and and Kelly's example about humiliating people is, is very, very powerful. The thing I remember Kelly for is 10,000 hours. That's, that's it, isn't it? By the time you are eight years old, as a girl child, you have already had your 10,000 hours of being a leader who understand relationships. And we as women need to recognise our 10,000 hours and the edge that that gives us. So thank you, Alison. Thank you, Kelly. Next week, will be a slightly different episode, what we're going to do is catch up with some of the members of the expedition, not all but some of the members of the expedition, who are now two months in, we want to catch up on some of the thinking. I've described, the next get together for all 24 members, by saying, by giving them a kitchen analogy, that our objective is to bake a cake, a beautiful and glorious cake. And we'll do that in February 2023. A cake that will capture an approach to leadership that resonates with women. But we haven't started making the cake yet. At the moment, we're still just gathering the ingredients. And you can imagine amongst the 24 women, there are some people who really want to get in there, start mixing, start putting the ingredients together. And I'm pushing back constantly and saying nope, nope, nope, nope. We're not starting yet. This stage, I want you to carry on bringing more ingredients and put them on the counter in the kitchen. And then as soon as they're on the counter, get back out there and find more ingredients. At the moment, we are just gathering ingredients for an eventual beautiful cake.

I deeply believe that one of the important things that leaders do is to find some sort of visual expression of the stage that we're in, that gets people to really understand it, come understand it. And, and lets them get on with it and not sort of overthink things in the way that Kelly talks about. So next week, we'll be looking at the kitchen, looking at the bowls and the trays and the jugs and what's in them that are coming into the kitchen and figuring out what ingredients we have got already. That are already there in the kitchen. Whether they actually make it to the eventual cake or not, they're in the kitchen. And that's what we want to have a look at next week. Look forward to it. Lots of love.

Oh, and how can I forget? How can I forget tomorrow is our first live session, expedition live session, it's on Twitter, it's on LinkedIn, it's on Facebook. It's at 2PM UK time tomorrow. It's just a short interlude, where me and Aishamian, one of our some most wonderful expedition members will be listening to your ideas, stealing your ideas, answering your questions, so that we widen the net of the expedition and have so many more women involved and thinking and then we're going to do this on a regular basis me and one of the expedition members, so hope you can join us and if you can't send me an email anyhow with whatever your question is, whatever your thought is, can't wait. Talk tomorrow.

Thank you for listening to the podcast. We would love you to follow the expedition and provide your own stories and perspectives. You can do this by subscribing to this podcast and joining the women emerging group on LinkedIn where you can have your say.