Transcripts
Foreign.
Speaker B:Welcome to another episode of Design at the Influence.
Speaker B:We're having so much fun presenting concepts and controversies to you.
Speaker B:And my co conspirators, Liz and Megan, now in episode four, are super confident.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah.
Speaker C:Bring it on.
Speaker A:Looking forward.
Speaker B:Mom approved, dad approved.
Speaker B:That kind of stuff.
Speaker B:We're moving on.
Speaker B:We're unpacking something that it's kind of dreadful cycle for bim and the ladies presented this as an opportunity, but we're going to first paint the picture.
Speaker B:Probably.
Speaker B:If you are using bim, if you're one of those people, one of us, I should say, then you are some way feeling it.
Speaker B:Megan set that up for us.
Speaker B:What is miserable here?
Speaker B:What's the problem?
Speaker C:Yeah, so I mean, and this is what we do every day is hear people and how they're having trouble with BIM and it's costing them so much money and the drawings don't look good.
Speaker C:And why did we have to switch from AutoCAD?
Speaker C:And what is the whole point of all of this?
Speaker C:And they're still really frustrated.
Speaker C:And I think that what we're going to get into later in this episode is kind of the pain points and the reasons why BIM has not been able to become the thing that it could be.
Speaker C:So to become the tool and the powerhouse that it actually was meant to be.
Speaker C:There's a lot of things that are just kind of inherent in a lot of companies and the way that things are traditionally done that have been holding it back.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker C:So I think that's kind of setting us up for everything that we're going to talk about today.
Speaker B:Let me just elevate this and say it plainly, because I have no horse in this race.
Speaker B:I mean, I have small horse.
Speaker B:She's not going to win.
Speaker B:But basically BIM managers just basically handles this in a way that is detrimental to the organization.
Speaker B:Most BIM managers are over controlling, freaky about that kind of stuff and choke innovation.
Speaker B:Did I say it?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Why are they doing this?
Speaker C:I'll let Lindsay take over.
Speaker A:There's a lot of reasons.
Speaker A:I would say one of the reasons, main reasons, is people are hard.
Speaker A:Technology is easy and people are hard.
Speaker A:And most people who are very good at coding or revit or archicad or it's these very technical things, they tend to find people extra hard and they don't know necessarily how to both handle the software and the human people who are hard.
Speaker A:And then you end up in these situations where it's us versus them.
Speaker A:You have a very maybe alone feeling.
Speaker A:BIM manager, because you Might be the only one in the office who really understands all this stuff.
Speaker A:You don't have anyone to bounce ideas off of you.
Speaker A:You only get problems thrown at you all the time.
Speaker A:You get people treating you like you made us use this stupid software or you've coded this dumb thing.
Speaker A:Why do we have to work like this?
Speaker A:Who made you the king of BIM or queen of bim?
Speaker A:And you don't have anyone around you to help you.
Speaker A:Maybe the closest thing you have is it to discuss a couple things with, but otherwise you're very, very much alone.
Speaker A:And we've seen it in the way that people quit their job as a BIM manager.
Speaker A:We've seen it in jokingly say angry manifesto BIM manuals that just sound like someone is just writing all the bad things everybody does in the office and telling them not to do it into a document no one ever reads.
Speaker A:And it's just become super, super toxic for everyone involved, to be honest.
Speaker A:So it's people.
Speaker A:People are really the problem.
Speaker B:What are some of the things now you have?
Speaker B:I won't say long because I don't want to age or you or nothing.
Speaker B:You had illustrious careers as BIM managers.
Speaker B:I don't know where I get those words.
Speaker B:I don't use them every day.
Speaker C:Great word.
Speaker B:They just come.
Speaker A:They just come.
Speaker B:But illustrious careers helping other organizations spit out amazing drawings and use their BIMs properly.
Speaker B:What are some of the things that you've seen a company do?
Speaker B:And I'm going to deviate from plan for a second, but what have you seen that, that actually broke the cycle of SOC like this?
Speaker B:Like how.
Speaker B:How are companies breaking through that?
Speaker A:I would say it treating them like a team sport that yes, you have a BIM manager and it's maybe their job to set up the system and make some decisions about the rules or, you know, keep on top of things.
Speaker A:But at the end of the day it's everybody's job because everyone's working in the software.
Speaker A:So it's really important that, that you leadership gives ownership to this, to everyone who's using it.
Speaker A:So that's how I think you start is changing the culture that we are all in this together, we're all on the same team.
Speaker A:Revit is great in some places and terrible in others.
Speaker A:It's changing all the time.
Speaker A:We got to work together to make this work and we should share our solutions and that also to break this feeling of right versus wrong because there are best practices and there are things you just shouldn't do because it causes problems later.
Speaker A:On.
Speaker A:But there's always exceptions to those things that you shouldn't do.
Speaker A:And there should be an open dialogue all the time with the entire team and not just one person who's the BIM police deciding whether or not you're allowed to do that.
Speaker A:Because what happens is people then go off and do it anyway in secret.
Speaker A:And then when something goes wrong, it goes really wrong, or it's hidden, so it's shine a light on it all.
Speaker A:We're all working on this together.
Speaker A:We're all on the same team.
Speaker A:And there is no din police.
Speaker C:And I would say, too, there's.
Speaker C:I think, Liz, you touched on it, the conversations throughout the office with everyone.
Speaker C:And we talked about this, I think in one of the episodes where bringing in the BIM team early on into even the bidding process and making sure that they have a say in how, you know, how much time they think that, you know, this project should take and inform, you know, higher upper management of, like, the differences between AutoCAD and Revit and BIM and how that process is much more heavy on the hours in the beginning than AutoCAD used to be.
Speaker C:And then also, I think, Liz, we talk about this, you know, know quite often that being a BIM purist can sometimes also be a big problem where you're not talking to project managers and you're not, you're not aware of the budgets and you're not aware that, you know, the decisions that you're making to, you know, maybe make this, like, fancy script really isn't worth it on this project.
Speaker C:It's not.
Speaker C:The budget isn't there for it.
Speaker C:It's a one and done.
Speaker C:We're never going to use it again.
Speaker C:Those kinds of conversations should be happening throughout the entire office and making sure that you are harnessing the minds of the people that know BIM and they know the intricacies of it.
Speaker C:But then also those people understanding that there are project budgets and that there are time deadlines and things like that where you have to adjust and if there's no coordination happening in 3D, the model doesn't have to be perfect.
Speaker C:That is, you know, kind of, you use BIM to your advantage, but you don't just do it to do it.
Speaker C:You do it for the project and you do it for, you know, the success of your clients.
Speaker C:And you've got to know where to draw the line.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And the last thing I just want to say about that is you're, you're completely right.
Speaker A:And the, when you go down that BIM purist line, you get more in a space where you are making the.
Speaker A:Allowing the tools to dictate how you work rather than what is the end result you're trying to create and what tools are available for us to get that result in the budget and the time that's allotted.
Speaker B:Who is the person in organization that should take responsibility to create this healthy BIM culture?
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:The culture, overall culture of productivity, innovation, culture of, you know, driving progress, but, you know, making money so everybody's getting paid and organization grows that health, that vibrancy, you know, it's so key in the organization.
Speaker B:And you know, some folks, as you said, do it just not to be left behind.
Speaker B:And they don't have that.
Speaker B:And so I like, what is the title and what is the main person that you've seen in your engagements with other clients, successful clients?
Speaker B:What is that title and how are they going about like seeding this culture of success?
Speaker C:I mean, I've seen it with a couple of our clients and it's, you know, small to medium firms.
Speaker C:We're working directly with the owners.
Speaker B:It is owner or the CEO.
Speaker B:The.
Speaker C:The CEO.
Speaker C:The people it has to come from, they have to be a part of it.
Speaker C:It has to come from the top down because, you know, it's really hard to come from the bottom up and push these ideas through to a management system that is the ready for them or willing to push it forward.
Speaker C:And they need to be.
Speaker C:Everyone needs to be a part of the conversation.
Speaker C:It isn't actually just one person, I would say it's a whole ecosystem and it's a new way of working because in the past it was pretty segmented between offices with the drafts person, the drafts team, even sometimes now it's still the BIM team.
Speaker C:They're very, very separate from engineers or, you know, the architects that are doing the designing and then upper management.
Speaker C:And it's really hard to push through this kind of change from the BIM team kind of area and group.
Speaker C:It needs to come from all sides.
Speaker C:Everyone needs to come together on it.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, I agree with that.
Speaker A:And I think it also comes down to hiring as well, because especially in small to medium firms, there are so few people that you just can have one person who's against it or is dragging their feet or is very negative and it can influence the entire group.
Speaker A:We also think that if you as a firm don't have a BIM manager, you should at least have someone higher up in the organization who understands and really buys into this.
Speaker A:So that someone like us who can Be your go to BIM manager has someone to interface with, who has power.
Speaker A:And that's the, the tricky part is that upper management, if they're not the ones driving this, they need to give the power to the person in the organization to drive this forward.
Speaker A:And that person should understand how project work is done, how contracts are written, all of the aspects of it.
Speaker A:And if, if nothing else, they at least know who to ask about those things.
Speaker A:And then when a decision is made, they, they're people believe them and people don't fight with them.
Speaker A:And that's just, you know, that's what happens.
Speaker A:But I would go back to hiring because it is tricky, especially now to hire in an architect who has, or structural engineer or any kind of professional who has this background, has this knowledge, but then refuses to use the tools or is unwilling to learn them.
Speaker A:And that just stalls everybody out.
Speaker B:So if someone is listening right now, who's the leader?
Speaker B:Founder, you know, owner, CEO, president of a small to medium sized firm that still has a chance but they find themselves in a toxic culture and their BIM manager is, you know, on one side, everybody else is on the other.
Speaker B:Some people pulling back into cad, you know, it's just kind of, it sucks coming to work for them.
Speaker B:And I, and I feel you because you know, organization, I've rebuilt orgs and you know, you stop where you start is dreadful.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, you don't want to come to work and you, you know, you don't want to take pick up the phone, it's going to be a client screaming at you or whatever.
Speaker B:So what if you were to give advice to that person where to begin?
Speaker B:And I guess, you know, I can kind of see it by fire your BIM manager, that's kind of, you know, a thing to do.
Speaker B:But maybe, maybe that is the advice.
Speaker B:But how would you maybe each of you take a turn and talk to that person right now and just give them advice.
Speaker B:From everything you've seen, I don't think they're going to get better advice.
Speaker B:What is your advice?
Speaker C:I would say that the owner, the CEO, whoever it is that's driving this company forward needs to educate themselves on bim, revit the processes.
Speaker C:They need to understand it.
Speaker C:Because if they don't understand it, then no one's going to really buy into it.
Speaker C:They need to be the ones that are bought in and can see the value and see the benefits even if they're not in the next year.
Speaker C:Because it is kind of a process once you commit to it.
Speaker C:But they see the long term benefits.
Speaker C:And they're not still the ex boyfriend camp.
Speaker C:They're, they're not still dreaming about those days when it was just quick and they could do it with AutoCAD.
Speaker C:They've got to be completely, you know, bought into this idea of BIM and how it really can help the industry.
Speaker C:And it is an amazing tool that helps the entire process.
Speaker C:And I think we talked about this like, you know, before during one of our other podcasts, but I think it's still the industry as well and the allegation or allocation of budgets and how we're compensated in the design phase versus in the construction phase and where the actual savings from BIM kind of appears in the construction phase.
Speaker C:But there hasn't really been anything to shift and offset the pain kind of that these design firms are feeling because now they're fronting a lot of this cost and they're not seeing the benefit if they're not, you know, on the contractor side and, and, you know, really experiencing less RFIs and, you know, an easier construction process.
Speaker A:And I would, I would say if you, you have a BIM manager and you're experiencing this, I would start with, I mean, it's a plug for us, but hire a support for them.
Speaker A:They need friends, they need someone to talk to.
Speaker A:So we, it could be us.
Speaker A:There are a lot of other clever people out there, but perhaps encourage them to reach out and network more with other BIM professionals or hire us in and we can do a phone a friend once a week and help them bounce ideas and first of all, feel less alone and feel less confronted all the time.
Speaker A:And then the next step is to reach out to the organization.
Speaker A:And when I worked with another architectural firm forever and ever ago, one of the first things we did when we wanted to do a change was we actually called in different music groups and just let them complain for an hour about everything that was wrong with everything.
Speaker A:And we just wrote it down and we listened and we kept asking questions.
Speaker A:And the idea was, all right, now we've got it out of our systems, we have all the complaints.
Speaker A:What are we going to do about these things?
Speaker A:Let's all do it together.
Speaker A:So that's, that can be a way to maybe restart.
Speaker A:So if you don't want to actually fire your manager, your bid manager, or they don't want to leave because they're lonely, let's restart this whole relationship.
Speaker B:That is so good.
Speaker B:I might actually borrow this.
Speaker A:Sure.
Speaker B:The complaint.
Speaker B:Did you call them anything?
Speaker B:The complaint sessions.
Speaker A:Bitch sessions.
Speaker B:That's a good One too.
Speaker A:Come on in.
Speaker B:Very, very descriptive bitching sessions.
Speaker B:Okay, that's good.
Speaker A:Sometimes you need multiple depending on how many people there are.
Speaker A:I mean, sometimes it's focused on topics and please come in, complain.
Speaker A:Let's figure it out.
Speaker B:So, so, but what a great way to break the cycle instead of just getting let toxic level just keep going up because people always going to talk to themselves about among themselves and complain to their sponsors and all that about how much they hate work.
Speaker B:Yeah, that's a great idea actually.
Speaker B:That's a great way to sort of shift the conversation.
Speaker B:But I think Megan's the first point is, you know, get educated.
Speaker B:I think that's kind of like, that's, that's table stakes.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:If, if you don't really.
Speaker B:I said like, I don't know if you.
Speaker B:Well, how much do you really need to know as a, as a, let's say, owner of a company?
Speaker B:How much is that education?
Speaker B:Let's quantify.
Speaker B:Is it something.
Speaker B:Do I need to be like the ace of the tool or is it enough for me to understand conceptually what it does, how it does it and have a few friendly firms that I can, you know, kind of see how they're doing successfully.
Speaker B:That way I can sort of come back and implement some of this stuff.
Speaker B:I mean, what, what is the education?
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:That's a little.
Speaker B:Yeah, let's, let's get less spongy on that.
Speaker C:Yeah, I mean, I think it depends on what kind of projects you're doing.
Speaker C:And if they are kind of on repeat, if they are on repeat, I suggest getting very familiar with what does the BIM process look like for these repeat projects.
Speaker C:And you know, hire someone like us or a liaison for your BIM manager to talk to, to figure out like, are there efficiencies that we're missing out on?
Speaker C:Are we really, you know, abiding by the whole point of Revit?
Speaker C:Revit means revise it and revise instantly.
Speaker C:And are we setting ourselves up for success in that or are we, you know, kind of still trying to put AutoCAD based workflows into Revit, which then ultimately costs you time later?
Speaker C:Yeah, they might be quick in the beginning, but when you go to change things, which Revit was set up to make more efficient and more effective, then it just takes as much time as it did the first time.
Speaker C:So you lose the ability to gain the benefits of BIM when you're trying to make it work like AutoCAD did.
Speaker C:And I think it's important for the owners and and management to understand exactly what processes are you using currently is there.
Speaker C:You know, these are smart people, these are architects and engineers.
Speaker C:If you actually get them to focus on something and learn about it and understand how it works, they're really going to.
Speaker C:I think that they would actually get excited about it.
Speaker C:I mean, it's not something that's completely like off the wall for them to understand.
Speaker C:It's part of their business.
Speaker C:It's part of.
Speaker C:They're looking at the drawings and the models all day long that these things are producing.
Speaker C:So I don't think it's too much to ask to actually get them to look into the software and how it's working and how, how you can use it to your benefit.
Speaker A:Yeah, I can.
Speaker A:I've also noticed that for some, as we are talking small to medium firms, that a lot of these owners, they started as maybe it was just them and one other person.
Speaker A:And now it's evolved and so they're not necessarily doing the doing anymore.
Speaker A:They're not really in the project or in the models, but they'd like think that they could be.
Speaker A:They could jump in and design and do stuff instead of doing markups or sketching on, you know, sketch paper or so on.
Speaker A:And I.
Speaker A:That I think in the back of their mind, it also scares them that, okay, my entire staff is going to move into a new process and a new software that I don't even know how to open, I don't even have a license for.
Speaker A:What happens now?
Speaker A:How do I still be the head architect, the head engineer?
Speaker A:What if I need to jump in on a deadline?
Speaker A:And so that becomes another level of personal scariness.
Speaker A:And that's something we've discussed with lots of different owners.
Speaker A:And you know, doing a training that's just the minimum of what they need to know.
Speaker A:I need to open it, I need to find a drawing.
Speaker A:And I think ACC kind of solves some of those problems already because you can set up your projects and publish views and sheets and 3D images and so on and just teach the principles that bit.
Speaker A:How do you spin around a model?
Speaker A:How can you look at, look at published images and drawings and mark those up?
Speaker A:You don't need open revit.
Speaker A:You don't need to dig through a thousand views.
Speaker A:You don't need to know all that nerdy stuff.
Speaker A:You can trust the people you work with to do that and but still have insight into what's happening in your projects and models.
Speaker A:So it's just kind of like identifying again, people are the problem, not the technology.
Speaker A:And People are also the solution because it's really just sitting down and talking as we do.
Speaker A:And I'd like to toot our own horn because I feel like Megan and I both are really good at the technical stuff, but also really good with the people side and really trying to dig into what's the actual problem here, both with the way people are using software, but also in somebody's head or in the organization.
Speaker A:And I would encourage all owners and everybody who's working with this to remember that it's the people involved in the technology that are really important too.
Speaker B:Is there a resource out there that you can point to that is principal focused or owner focused when it comes to training for bim?
Speaker C:I mean, I would go back to it's your team.
Speaker C:If you've already started using bim, asking your team how, like, I want you to do this, what does that look like in Revit?
Speaker C:How would you do that?
Speaker C:Explain the process to me so that I can understand it.
Speaker C:I think that they're your best resource.
Speaker C:If you don't have that yet, then there's, I mean, I think we could Google many, many things and there's so much information out there.
Speaker B:If you can't point it, we'll put it in notes.
Speaker B:I'd appreciate if you throw me a quick couple links.
Speaker B:Yeah, it sounds like that could be a really good idea to have principle focused BIM Revit training with all of the.
Speaker B:And an IT focus.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:With last episode, we bashed it.
Speaker B:Today we bash BIM managers, deservedly so, but like, you know, we're swinging the bat.
Speaker B:But in the meantime, let's, let's, you know, let's give a little bit of candy out, put some bandaids.
Speaker C:I mean, I think that's, it's a hard thing.
Speaker C:Like people ask us that too.
Speaker C:Like, can you just come in and train our teams?
Speaker C:And it's difficult.
Speaker C:Like, there are, there's videos out there.
Speaker C:Here's how to use Revit.
Speaker C:But every office and every, every engineer, every architect is going to use Revit differently.
Speaker C:And they need it to look a certain way.
Speaker C:Everyone has different standards.
Speaker C:Go back to the tool shed.
Speaker C:Everyone needs a different tool shed.
Speaker C:Everyone needs to learn how to use those tools in the tool shed.
Speaker C:So it's actually really difficult to do like a one size fits all training.
Speaker C:And we get asked for that a lot.
Speaker C:And we often send them to the trainings that already exist.
Speaker C:Vulcan Architect, you know, Autodesk University.
Speaker C:And then when it comes to specific training on their standards and their workflows in Their office.
Speaker C:After we've worked with them for a while and help them with their templates and their content, then we are ready to train their team on those specific things.
Speaker C:And I would say, you know, for the owners and the managers, it's kind of the same answer.
Speaker C:I know you want a link or something that we can just send them to, but I don't think that, that.
Speaker C:I honestly don't think that exists.
Speaker C:I think it's going to be educating yourself from multiple different places and your team is where to start.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And also, don't forget to ask your BIM manager, are you okay?
Speaker A:I think that's what.
Speaker A:Instead of beating them up, we should probably just go and give them a hug and ask them if they're okay.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:Well, I think we gave a lot.
Speaker B:I think this one, get this one.
Speaker B:It's got a lot of takeaways.
Speaker B:You know, the complaining sessions, sessions and the education for principals and hugging your BIM manager.
Speaker B:Those are all great.
Speaker B:Why don't we tease the next episode with some hope?
Speaker B:You don't mean like there's a little bit of ray of sunshine.
Speaker B:There's a hope for this whole hopeless thing to turn around and actually have Revit and BNB be the thing that it was supposed to be.
Speaker B:And what is it?
Speaker A:I mean, we have so many little stories in our travels of people.
Speaker A:It just, it clicks one day and they just get it.
Speaker A:And the questions are, no longer how do I place a door on a wall?
Speaker A:They are, oh, I want to do this.
Speaker A:Really complex things with revision schedules.
Speaker A:Can you help me figure that out?
Speaker A:Oh, now you're.
Speaker A:Now we're talking, you know, and yeah, is possible.
Speaker A:It is absolutely possible.
Speaker A:And it is, it is.
Speaker A:It's not the future, it's what it is now.
Speaker A:It's the current state of the industry.
Speaker B:I want to project.
Speaker B:We talked about something else.
Speaker B:I.
Speaker B:I mean, this is all good, but what did we talk about?
Speaker B:Do you remember?
Speaker C:Yeah, it's.
Speaker C:I think AI is going to be a game changer for people.
Speaker A:Yeah, definitely.
Speaker C:It's going to automate a lot of the things that people didn't like about Revit that were maybe holding them back, the repetitive things.
Speaker C:And if you didn't get into Dynamo or all the other fancy plugins, AI really can kind of be a one size fits all solution to plugging in and helping you with your workflows and tailoring it to exactly what you need.
Speaker C:And it's there and there's people working hard on it right now.
Speaker C:And we're using A little bit of it currently.
Speaker B:Let's keep that for next episode because I really want you to get into this and not only to talk to us about what is it currently, but also what do you see the application is and how to prepare.
Speaker B:How to prepare for this sort of a boom.
Speaker B:Because it's definitely going to work.
Speaker B:I mean, I'm sorry.
Speaker B:It's definitely going to happen.
Speaker C:It has happened.
Speaker B:That's all awkward.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:Well, I really appreciate your time today and I think everybody who listened, watched, hopefully got what they wanted out of this.
Speaker B:Reach out to the ladies via the interwebs.
Speaker B:Aurora Bim is who they are and you can find them on the website and probably Twitter or somewhere else.
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker B:You guys on Twitter?
Speaker B:No, no.
Speaker B:Nobody tweets anymore anyway.
Speaker B:Instagram?
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker C:Are we on Instagram?
Speaker A:Individually?
Speaker A:Individually, we are.
Speaker A:LinkedIn.
Speaker A:We do it.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:LinkedIn.
Speaker C:We don't need more clients yet.
Speaker B:LinkedIn.
Speaker B:We need more clients yet.
Speaker B:But the organization progresses and grows and I wish you would do the same.
Speaker B:And if you need it help, you got your phone call to make to arcit getarchit.com, where you can find us.
Speaker B:We are on Instagram even though we don't got a lot to show.
Speaker B:I mean, it's it.
Speaker B:What are we going to show?
Speaker B:But we are on Instagram.
Speaker B:If you're curious, go see.
Speaker B:Nancy does a great job.
Speaker B:He's a marketing manager and we do these shows and whatnot.
Speaker B:Anyway, thanks very much for listening.
Speaker B:AI is next week.
Speaker B:See you next time.
Speaker A:Sounds great.
Speaker A:Thank you.
Speaker C:Thank you.
Speaker A:Bye.
