In this episode, Creative arts curriculum advisor Jackie King and Aboriginal Education Advisor Dominique Higgins are joined by Dr Aunty Jacinta Tobin who is a proud Dharug descendant of mixed heritage. In the Stage 4 unit Bigger than the Song, students will investigate Jacinta’s work with The Preatures on the song Yanada and explore the process of their collaboration. This discussion unpacks Indigenous Cultural Intellectual Property (ICIP) and the importance of following Cultural protocols and seeking permissions when engaging with Aboriginal Language and story.   

Bigger than the song unit will be published on the Department’s Music 7-10 website in 2026.   

Note: Throughout this podcast terms such as First Nations or Indigenous are used. In NSW public schools, 'Aboriginal' or 'Aboriginal and/or Torres Strait Islander' are preferred. 

Bigger Than The Song Jacinta Tobin – Transcript

Jane MacDavitt

The following podcast is brought to you by the Creative Arts team from secondary curriculum, the Curriculum Directorate of the New South Wales Department of Education.

Dominique Higgins

Yiradhu marang mayiny-galang, Yuwin-dhu Dominique Higgins

Balladhu Bangerang Wiradjuri Yinaa

Hi everyone, my name is Dominique Higgins.

I am a proud Bangerang Wiradjuri woman

Ngadhu banhi-gu gulbarra Dharug Ngurambang-ga nginha ngan-girra dhurinya gayi dhalang

I would like to acknowledge the Dharug nation on which I’m coming from today.

Ngadhu banhi-gu gulbarra Muyulung-galang maradhul-bu yaala-bu

I would like to acknowledge Elders past and present

Ngadhu banhi-gu gulbarra biyambul guwal Ngurambang-galang-bu

I would like to acknowledge all the lands you are coming from today and the Elders and Knowledge Holders who live, and have lived, on those Countries.

As I listen, I hear the vibrations of Country, sound echoing through time, carrying stories, over 65,000 years. With each breath I honour that air that carries song, Language, and the heartbeat of this land. I acknowledge our First Peoples, the custodians of this land, whose music, through voice, instrument and rhythm, has always been a way of knowing, being and doing. I listen with respect, knowing that this land, always was and always will be, Aboriginal Land.

Mandaan guwu wudha-garbinya

Thank you for listening.

Jackie King

Welcome to Creative Cast, the official podcast of the New South Wales Department of Education's Creative Arts Curriculum Team. My name is Jackie King and I'm a Creative Arts Curriculum Advisor and Music subject matter expert.

Dominique Higgins

And my name is Dominique Higgins. I'm a proud Bangerang Wiradjuri woman in my role of Aboriginal Education Advisor with the Department of Education. Today we're lucky enough to be joined by Dr. Aunty Jacinta Tobin. Jacinta Tobin is a proud Dharug descendant of mixed heritage who has worked passionately with her country and community in universities to preschools, government department to the corporate sector for over 25 years.

Jacinta believes that when we are speaking or singing Language, we are creating educational lived experiences through healing pathways by connecting to Country and the ancestors.

Jackie King

In the Stage 4 unit, ‘Bigger than the Song’ students will investigate Jacinta's work with The Preachers on the song Yanada and explore the process of their collaboration. Today we are going to talk about the importance of following cultural protocols and seeking permission when engaging with Aboriginal Language and story.

Dominique Higgins

Yiradhu marang Jacinta, gawaymbanha and mandaang guwu Thank you for joining us today.

Jacinta Tobin

Budyari nulinawul, ngaya Jacinta, Burubiranggal Cannenmegal Dharug dhalang So good morning, my name's Jacinta and I come from the Prospect and Richmond clans of the Dharug nation. I'm speaking to you from Bulgamatta, from the place of the mountains.

Jackie King

Beautiful. We're so glad to have you on today, Jacinta, to talk about your work and all of these things that are very important to you. Can you tell us a bit about yourself first and, and the role that music has played in your life?

Jacinta Tobin

So I've introduced myself as coming from those areas so all my mothers have been born here. So Mum's Mum, her Mum, her Mum, her Mum, her Mum. And from time of colonisation, we don't know from before that. Growing up we were told we were Spanish, uh, because it was safer to be anything but Aboriginal. And since I was in my, about 17, I was still in high school, we discovered our Aboriginality, a name for it because we always a bit suss 'cause the cousins were quite dark. And then from that time, music. I've always had music, I've always written poetry and I've always played guitar. And I first started at Social Ecology at Richmond, and they encouraged me 'cause I'm dyslexic so, reading has never been my forte. And so, they encouraged me to express myself through different manners. So, I actually wrote a song called 'Show Me the Way'. And one of the last lines, it's ‘education it must be if I can help them to see if worth, that's the way we should go. What do you know, and can you show me the way?’ And from that came this song ‘Yarramundi.’ And the amount of time to sing the song is the amount of time it took to write it. I don't believe it was just myself. I believe ancestors were walking with me on that song being Yarramundi, I'm seventh Generation from Yarramundi, and from that time Language, because more songs to tell our story of Country came, we needed more Language.

And so, music to me is everything and all life has a song, I believe. Everything vibrates in frequencies. And for me, my job here is to learn how to hear that song of all things and then connect to it and then share it with others. Because it's a gift for all people.

Jackie King

I love that and there is so much in being able to learn through song. Reading and writing isn't always the only way to learn, as we all know. In our unit of work, we are going to have students looking at ‘Yanada’ and in particular, your collaboration with The Preachers on that. So I was wondering if you could tell us, a bit about ‘Yanada’, the story that is behind the song, and how The Preachers worked with you and the Dharug community in seeking permission to tell this story of the song.

Jacinta Tobin

Well um, I've gotta get my dates right. I've forgotten my dates of when it was, everything's a bit long time ago now. But,a while ago when I was doing the Sydney Festival, a young woman contacted me and came to the classes and she was, she actually reminds me of Joe Clancy, one of our dancers. And I just looked at her and thought, wow, I wonder where you are from? And she came up to my house, I invited her up, and she came and sat with me and she said she wanted to write a song in Language, and when she was singing, I could hear, I could hear Language trying to come out of her mouth and it was really interesting. And one of the words that was, was ‘Yanada’. And so, in turn she, I gave her a whole heaps of different words and back then we didn't have the website and all that up and running at that stage. And she took off and came back and sung the song and I loved it. And I got goosies you know, we have our own little signs and signals that it's not just, we're not alone as people and our goosebumps are one of those things that we know something special is happening.

And so, when she sung it I got the goosebumps and then it was trying to follow the protocols. My personal protocols on how am I going to give permission to somebody who identifies as non-indigenous. Not that she doesn't, yeah, the blood tests people get their DNA done. Sometimes it comes back ‘other’. I asked her, what do you think other is? But anyway and so, in turn I had to go and follow my protocols. I had to talk to my Elders. Had to talk to my community. And then we got Terri Jenke involved, who is the lead in intellectual property rights and things like that. And so, it's a very sticky situation I found myself in. To give permission, but also to, the Warumpi band. Many of their members, I know them and, Bill and that, and they weren't, Aboriginal, but they used to sing Aboriginal. If you hear that song, black fella, white fella, doesn't matter what your colour, as long as you're a good fella, you know, as long as you're a true fellow. And so, in the end of the day, we're all spirit. And so, I got into the hot water and so the only thing I can do and know how to do is see if ancestors and my environment is willing. And so, I put the call out to see the eagle in three days. The poor old band didn't even realise I meant a real eagle at first and you know yeah, so anyway. We had to wait three days 'cause I was in a conference and I didn't see it until I was waiting at Richmond show and then that's actually the clan land of, Dharug Yarramundi, which was interesting too, that the eagle should show itself, in the place where I first started to write music. So, there was a lot of different connections, but then by seeing that eagle, it gave me my personal, go ahead in my protocols. Because I had to take it out of human hands.

Jackie King

Thank you for that. I love, hearing about the story of the eagle and seeing those signs and getting the goosebumps as well. I got goosebumps when I was talking to you the first time, but I'll talk about that a little bit later. You spoke about Terri Jenke and her work on ICIP, and I think that is really good because in the new music syllabus, students do have to make ethical choices or apply appropriate protocols around the use of indigenous, cultural and intellectual property, ICIP. So can you, talk to what ICIP is, and talk to why it's so important that we do understand and follow protocols around engaging with the ICIP?

Jacinta Tobin

Well, the ICIP is to make sure that indigenous, music, art, any sort of form of cultural expression, is protected. So too many times, we've seen, people's work, and it still goes on, it still goes on unfortunately, but we see people's work being repeated or taken. I'm even a little bit curious on the ‘kookaburra sits in the old gum tree.’ Because I've learned a traditional song that talks about the kookaburra sitting in the gold gum tree, laughing, laughing, laughing. And uh, so that was interesting. I wonder where they got that concept from you know? But that's going way back. Poor old Men at Work. But, it's a hard one too because also I think about traditional songs and, dance and performance. No, it's not performance, it's ceremony. And so, what, the only thing that worries me is the handing down of those ceremonial songs. No one should have a right to put an intellectual property on it. But in the same turn too, if it's connected to that Country and those people's Language groups, that could be something that is a way, that's a thing I don't think we've really tackled well yet about that handing down from generation to generation of song. And no one, you know, who has the right to hold. Well, that's where, individual Language groups have their protocols. So, one of the things I wouldn't dream of taking something from Central and bringing it here, without going through their protocols, you know. But unfortunately, one of our biggest hiccup in Sydney is because of the hit of colonisation. So early in the piece, we lost two thirds of the tribe within the first five years of settlement.

So, those protocols, are hard to enforce. Hard to follow. But where I'm encouraging teachers and students to actually think deeply. Because, to me protocols is the key to it, is respect for all things. And I think that's the biggest protocol is respect. And to do it in the right way, so you're not, we didn't profit from each other as society asks us to do now. We shared. And by sharing means everybody's equal, so you don't take something that is not yours and then make a lot of things from it and not give back. And The Preachers are still talking to us now about sharing more of the intellectual property with us. Which is really interesting and that's a meaningful relationship. It's not a flash in the pan situations. So that's been, I don't know how many years it's been since that song's been released but again, they're coming to see us because we've made sure the protocols were tight. We made sure the respect was, reciprocated. And I think that's it. It's just, we just need people to be meaningful.

Dominique Higgins

Absolutely, and I think, I like that you said Aunt, that like teachers need to really think about this deeply. And it is about building that relationship with their communities and who that is and trying to understand who holds the cultural authority in their space and to really try and nurture that relationship and because it is reciprocal and it shouldn't be one way or the other. So, to consider that within what they do in all aspects of schooling and education, with their local community is so important. But you mentioned your protocols and how they guide your work, so I was wondering if you could talk to us a little bit about in your own community, and when you work with others, particularly non-Aboriginal people, what protocols do you follow?

Jacinta Tobin

So, for me, checking in with Language, 'cause Language is evolving and changing, you go to translate songs that have been recorded in the past, they don't translate as easily as people would think. I think we have a bit of poetic license as musicians, but it's also as ceremonial people. You want to understand if you are vibing in the right frequency for that place and space. And I think that's what you're asking too is that each community has their own sort of go-to people.

One of our concerns here in Country is we do have three of the largest Aboriginal populations in Australia, in Country. So, people can be meeting with their local community, but they may not be meeting with the people of Country. And that's not taking away from anything that the community brings, 'cause everybody brings a gift. And, it's learning how to utilise that gift within the framework of the Language group where you're learning.

Dominique Higgins

And that's the key right? And that's, it's so tricky because like you said, for me personally, I live on Awabakal Country, very few ' TO's that live on this Country still, because of colonisation and it's such a transient place. So, it's really tricky that, that even us, like when we go to community and I'm a part of my community, but I'm not Awabakal. You know, so I'm Wiradjuri. It's really hard to find who those people are and to navigate that conversation. So, they definitely, yeah, something everyone needs to be mindful of. Why is it important for teachers to check in with their local communities, if they are, you know, lucky enough to know who that is or who holds that kind of authority? But why is it important to check in with community before engaging with song and Language?

Jacinta Tobin

I believe that Language is a science. I believe our songs and our ceremony were actually our science. I tried to explain it to developers one day. It's, it's like using electrical wires. You know, if you plug that electrical wire into the wrong socket, you're going to damage all your circuit board. So can we get our heads into a space to respect sound in a manner that we actually understand the power of sound and the power of voice and, connection to Country through those vibrations and frequencies. So, by tapping into your TO’s, you are learning the vibration and frequency of that place through their voice, because we are the essence of all that has passed. We are still here.

And the idea for teachers is to actually learn the complexity of trying to work in Aboriginal settings. We are not a stock standard culture, you know, one we don't have a chiefdom and this sort of pyramid structure that most of our education system is based on. And to respect and understand that all people, no matter where their knowledge system lies, or who you think is the boss and who you think is not, all are needing respect. And so, it's a tricky navigation for teachers. And I take my hats off to you teachers. Yeah, I take my hats off to your teachers. Full stop. It doesn't matter if you're doing this course or not. Oh man. To be brave enough to be a teacher in a school right now, I think is amazing and credit to you all. But I just wanna encourage you to actually do this walk like The Preachers have done with us, because you will find life has so much more to offer when you get deeper into our culture. It will open your eyes to other things that, you know, I try to tell my daughter, all your Harry Potter stuff is here. You just don't know how to tap into it and it hasn't become a trend or trendy or something. But once people start tasting it, and I will also do a little pre-warning for teachers that your students may start to connect to things that you may not see, you may not hear, you may not feel, but they do. Or you may start to have things happening. Please do not think it's mental health stuff. You may actually be tapping into that, that is greater than all of us. You know that we're all a part of black, white, brindle, doesn't matter. You know, water doesn't ask you, are you Dharug if you drink from it. It shares. And so that's it. But to drink from it respectfully is the key.

Jackie King

Thank you for that. You talked earlier goosebumps and having you know, those other sensations. And I don't know if you remember, but when I first spoke to you back in June I think it was, and I was toying with the idea of what we were going to call this unit. You actually helped me to name this unit and you said it and I got those goosebumps all over my body. I actually welled up with tears 'cause I couldn't believe you also said it. But in that conversation I had with you, you said a phrase and it really resonated with me because we've also worked with DOBBY who also used that phrase. And so that phrase was 'Bigger Than the Song' and, you know, the music of particularly Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people, it's bigger than just the song. It's bigger than what we just hear.

So, can you tell us what that phrase means to you when we're considering music by Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander artists?

Jacinta Tobin

So ‘bigger than the song’ is the fact to understand that vibration and frequency is actually everything. The musician brain is the only brain that can be cut open at time of death, and you can see that job. Because we stimulate, we grow better audio, we grow better cortex, which helps the two brains to connect, and we grow a larger frontal lobe. And so, we become more compassionate. And so, for me, we were actually as Indigenous people, using the education system of both brains, not just one more dominant. And I think this is what's happened is we've had that, that dominance of writing, reading and arithmetic, which is all very much the lefthand brain and yet the righthand brain has been starving saying we're still here, and we are not just here for pleasure. You know, art, music and all these things are not just pleasure. These are actual tools. And so, the ‘bigger the song’ is the fact that I do believe I can, our song can vibrate to many different levels of understanding. it doesn't just stay in. If we think of it like a rainbow, just because we're in the green, it doesn't mean the purple and the red's not happening. And if you can understand how to sing the whole rainbow and not just the green, then you are touching all those colours. That's where it's ‘bigger than the song.’

Dominique Higgins

That's so beautiful. I love that. And it kind of goes into that idea of cultural healing as well, that those vibrations and the frequencies. So, can you talk to us about how, Language revitalisation and the work that you've done supports that cultural healing?

Jacinta Tobin

Oh, I'm so proud of my family compared to, you know 10, or well 20 years ago we were extinct. People told us we were extinct. And now my family has got their own Language website. They're doing cool burns in Country, and it all starts with some songs. And that's how I've touched my family and encouraged them to stand stronger was through songs of their own history. Songs of their own Language. Songs of our mixing of blood with other mobs. Songs that tell our aspect. My aspect. And then now others are coming in with their aspect in song. And so, all points are relevant. That's why I've always done song. I just think it's a wonderful way because I learn Language heaps quicker through song. And the kids, I've got kids that are now in their thirties that come up to me and will sing songs that they learn from me in preschool. And you think, oh, you still remember that? That's sweet because it's an embodiment and it's a lived experience through the vibration and frequency within your own body. And that's really important because can you imagine times past that was our, no, not times past, it's still our strength but we haven't come together as a nation. You know, where we used to come together as nations. Because all our clans and our kids coming through, we didn't, who the hell thought it was a good idea to put teenagers all together? I don't know, but I don't know if that's a right way of education. God love you's. But in times past, we had the teenagers with the elders, you know, watching the young children. So, they were learning to become adults, not just hanging together, being teenagers. You know, like. I love, oh, I've gotta love them, I've got a 13-year-old. So, this is the thing is I want children to, the Language will help them to hook into culture. And that was what we could only give at the time and what a beautiful gift to give.

Dominique Higgins

Yeah, absolutely. And it does, it carries culture and truth and that healing for, for all mob.

Jacinta Tobin

A friend of mine. He said to me one time, he said, Jacinta 'cause sometimes it's not easy being Aboriginal in Country. It's not easy holding that light or, you know, people saying you're pronouncing things wrong or whatever. I'm sorry. Hey, I'm just relearning my Language, gimme a break 'cause you know you can get down from these things. I felt like giving it all and walking away. And he said, you can't stop singing because for thousands and tens of thousands of years, your family has sung for you for this time. You must keep singing for the tens of thousands of years to come. And I think that's really important that we realise this is not a new thing. This is an ancient culture, and we need this responsibility as Australians to sustain the first spiritual movement in this country. I can't understand why every other religion gets respect and our first spiritual movement doesn't have that same respect.

Dominique Higgins

Truth. That's it. And what you just said, speaking of goosebumps, that just gave me all the feels right then that story. And it's those younger generations that you just mentioned, what does it mean to you to hold that space personally and raise your voice for mob and for our future generations?

Jacinta Tobin

It's an honour for a start. It's been an honour, but it's a heavy honour. Yeah. but it's also encouraged. I want to write songs now that, because I've told our history, I need to write songs to help children to dream up the new future. See, we don't realise that there were songs I used to sing when I was younger and I found myself in situations that, oh my God, I think I just sung myself into this picture. And so for children to come, I want them to understand that there is power in song. That you are using all parts of your brain. And when you are in love with that song, your heart produces the largest magnetic field in your body. So, you are projecting tenfold when you are singing in love, you know? So, I want children to become empowered. I don't want them to think they're one person and they're and what's our story relevant to. All your stories are relevant. You are all empowered people. You are not powerless, which society likes to set people up to think they're powerless, but they're not. They're all bring a gift. They all got something to share, and I just want children to actually start to use that ancient technology, which is our body. And hook into the technology that's more ancient than us, which is our environment. And learn to be in love with life.

Dominique Higgins

Absolutely. How do you think, 'cause that's what we're wanting, right? For our kids and for our future generations. How can our schools and our teachers, therefore, we know it's a tricky, and complex job, how can they best support and amplify the voices of Aboriginal artists and their communities?

Jacinta Tobin

They could help by introducing to the different, you can tell, us and to the Pigrim Boys. The Pigrim Men they're from the coast. You can hear the change in their music. And then you hear the Warumpi and they're stomping, they've got more red sand on their feet. You can hear the difference in people's songs. And to hear Country through their sounds, you know, and encourage them to speak Country and sing Country through their voices. You know, by understanding what each individual different nation's song people are sharing. Yeah? And to appreciate that Country is influencing their Language, their song, their beat, their sound, because each Country has its own unique sounds. And that's why protocols are important. Because each mob has their own certain way of being. Even though songs will connect right across Country and what a clever, clever system to actually have responsibility shared, so therefore, that sharing of culture stays connected right across Country. I just think it was a very, very clever system and encourage the youth to actually look at music more than music for music's sake. Music as a tool. Music as an honour to use. Music as a way to connect. Music as a way to stimulate all your body. You know? And one of the things I'd encourage 'em to do is like find, I used to sing in a Barina, a little car, you know? The Barinas? And it was terrific for doing chanting and you get that vibration. Or a sound bath. I'd encourage your, teachers to do sound bath and using Language and then have one lot in the middle, and then you have the outer ring, and they may be doing another word and the outer ring doing another word. And then you chart into the section in the centre, and then they swap over and they get to feel vibration and frequency. And appreciate that music is way more powerful than what people have liked to listen. Yeah. So that's what I, and have fun! I'd encourage your teachers to have fun. Please don't have this as a burden because you will not get the right intent if you have it as a burden. Which is really hard teachers, I understand. So, I take, again, I take my hat off to you.

Dominique Higgins

It is, but yes, totally agree and, Aunt I just wanna say mandaang guwu, thank you so much for joining us. It's been a real privilege of mine to sit in this space with you and, and listen, listen deeply to, to your stories and what you have to share. So, so thank you so much and I hope all teachers have a chance to listen to this and really learn.

Jacinta Tobin

And fall in love with it 'cause Australia, this is your culture. And the cultural cringe has gotta stop. We are a ancient nation, and we need to come into our ancientness with respect, love, and appreciation that we're here in Australia.

Jackie King

Thank you so much, Jacinta for joining us today on the podcast and, sharing everything that you have. I think we've more than proven that it is bigger than the song, all of this music that we've got to listen to and thank you very much for everything that you shared.

Jacinta Tobin

Didyarigurr, Thank you. And actually, that means no, I've had enough. True. We didn't have a thank you like that.

Jane McDavitt

This podcast was brought to you by the Creative Arts team from secondary curriculum, the Curriculum Directorate of the New South Wales Department of Education. Get involved in the conversation by joining our statewide staff room through the link in the show notes, or email Jane McDavitt at Creative Arts 7-12@det.nsw.edu au.  I would like to acknowledge the beautiful yidaki sounds at the start were from Whitebridge High School on Awabakal Country, by proud Aboriginal students, Oslo Harradine, Renni Chapman and Zeb Short

The music for this podcast was composed by Creative Arts advisor, Alex Manton.