The Importance of Professional Insurance for Coaches
In this episode, hosts Angie and John discuss the various aspects and importance of having professional insurance for individuals working as coaches.
Both hosts share their journeys and perspectives on insurance, highlighting why Angie chose to invest in it and why John did at one point but eventually saw it as less relevant for his coaching style.
They explore the contingencies that insurance protects against, emphasizing incidental lawsuits, the unforeseen outcomes of coaching sessions, and the broader implications of not having insurance, such as potential personal financial risks from litigations.
Additionally, they touch on the aspect of income protection insurance for self-employed coaches.
The dialogue concludes with an encouragement for listeners to research and make an informed decision regarding professional insurance for peace of mind and legal protection.
00:00 Opening Banter: The Insurance Inquiry Begins
00:17 The Importance of Professional Insurance for Coaches
01:31 Personal Experiences with Insurance: Angie's Perspective
02:12 John's Journey: From NLP Coaching to Questioning Insurance Needs
05:56 The Shift in Coaching Style and Insurance Needs
09:48 Exploring the Legal Side of Coaching and Insurance
19:22 The Unexpected Litigation Stories and Final Thoughts
22:36 Closing Remarks and Encouragement to Research Insurance Options
Angie,
2
:Angie: John,
3
:John: are you covered,
4
:Angie: well, I'm wearing
clothes if that's what you mean.
5
:John: I mean professionally,
6
:Angie: I can put on my own clothes, John.
7
:I'm a big girl.
8
:John: insurance Angie?
9
:I'm asking if you're
insured professionally.
10
:Angie: Oh, yes.
11
:Yes, I am.
12
:Are you?
13
:John: I'm not, no.
14
:Angie: All right.
15
:Well, let's find out
why and start the show.
16
:John: We've talked about this a few
times, Angie, as to the pros and cons of
17
:insurance, and we know it's not a super
sexy topic or anything like that, but it
18
:might be one that is on people's minds.
19
:Should I have insurance as a coach
working professionally out in the world,
20
:or is it something I don't really need?
21
:I've been on both sides of the fence
on this, but I know you do have
22
:insurance, and I'd like to know.
23
:Find out why.
24
:what do you feel is the benefit for you?
25
:Angie: I didn't have
insurance for a long time.
26
:I wasn't even somebody that
thought I needed it, to be honest.
27
:And the idea of having insurance as a
coach, I Was very foreign to me and I
28
:was at a professional event and Of course
there was you know, some insurance person
29
:there and he was like hey You know for all
of you people that have a business and I
30
:don't just mean like a business But you
have a business structure a corporation
31
:you really should have insurance I
didn't do anything in that moment, but it
32
:piqued my interest Because again, it was
something that I hadn't even considered
33
:before You yeah, but you don't have it.
34
:John: I don't have it, but I have
had it in the past, and the reason
35
:I had it originally was because when
I was getting started as a coach, a
36
:lot of my practice was based around
NLP, Neuro Linguistic Programming, and
37
:therapeutic techniques within that.
38
:I felt it was important to be
doing that kind of work, to
39
:have some professional cover.
40
:Because it's the kind of work that if you
can't help people get the results, some
41
:people are more okay about it than others.
42
:Some people are definitely not okay if
they don't get results they want, or if
43
:things really don't go the way they want,
or if they somehow feel hurt or damaged
44
:by their experience and you never know.
45
:Now, I've never had cause to use it.
46
:I would say that I did have the insurance
for a bunch of years back in the UK
47
:and never had cause to use it, but it
did offer some peace of mind as I moved
48
:away from that style of coaching anyway.
49
:It seemed less and less relevant
to me to feel the need to protect
50
:myself from that kind of comeback
or any sort of professional
51
:blowback in that way from clients.
52
:And yet we probably have
somewhat similar coaching now
53
:and you do feel a need to that.
54
:So I'm curious why, what makes you
want to keep that going and what do
55
:you feel that that coverage gives you?
56
:Angie: I think it's like
any insurance, right?
57
:I think it's not because it's required,
like to drive a car, you have to
58
:have insurance or if you own a home
you're supposed to have insurance.
59
:So it's not really like that.
60
:It's not like, oh, I might lose it.
61
:It could happen.
62
:What if?
63
:It could be an accident or something.
64
:But I think to your point, when this
person piqued my interest, I started
65
:to do a little bit of digging.
66
:And it seemed to me that
67
:there were people who had it because
of situations that had already
68
:happened to them, where, exactly to
your point, somebody did not get the
69
:result that they wanted, and they
wanted to point the finger at somebody.
70
:And I can't speak to whether that was
justified, or it wasn't justified,
71
:because You and I both know that,
there's, and there's medical doctors
72
:that graduated at the top of their class
and there's medical, that they graduated
73
:at the top, the bottom of the class and
you're not going to know which is who.
74
:So it's the same in any arena,
any professional arena where
75
:There are not so great coaches out there.
76
:It's just the nature of the beast.
77
:When I started to think about the
thing that I couldn't control,
78
:like you could think you have this
amazing relationship or rapport with
79
:a client and it really doesn't take
much sometimes for that to shift.
80
:And all of a sudden it's,
everybody wants to come after you.
81
:And.
82
:I would say that that
was the big shift for me.
83
:I, when I thought about potentially
what could happen because I did find
84
:people who were sued by clients I was
like, okay I'm going to have that.
85
:And it's a little bit, even the insurance
itself, I looked at our the policy
86
:and basically, the way my insurance,
my personal insurance is set up, and
87
:this would differ for everybody, they
could do their own homework and figure
88
:out their own thing, but it's kind of
like, no, we can't come and take your
89
:house and you're this and you're that
so I'm covered and that's really the
90
:motivation is that, so much of what
we do is subjective, so, So, how do we
91
:decide and who knows when you're going
to find that person, but something you
92
:said really stuck out for me that, once
I stopped doing that type of coaching,
93
:then I felt like maybe I didn't need it.
94
:And that's so interesting to me
because I'm like, Hmm, what's
95
:the differentiation for you?
96
:John: I think that was much more
interventional coaching, where
97
:someone's going to you and saying,
I've got this problem, and you're
98
:saying, okay, well I'm gonna help you.
99
:With that and I have the
solution, essentially.
100
:So if someone was coming to me, I
don't know, one example would be
101
:to quit smoking, which I know I
did some smoking cessations with
102
:people, some successful, some not.
103
:But it could be something like that,
it could be maybe they want to lose
104
:weight, maybe that doesn't happen.
105
:They want to have some kind
of psychological intervention
106
:they want to change something.
107
:Change how they're showing
up in the lives of that.
108
:I think coaching is going to do some level
of that, but the NLP stuff is much more,
109
:at least purports to be more therapeutic
and a bit more, okay I'm actually
110
:going to do this technique with you.
111
:So I'm intervening as a coach and as she's
saying, this is what you're going to do.
112
:Whereas coaching in
general to me is like, I'm.
113
:only ever really asking questions.
114
:If there is specific guidance, I'm
going to offer my experience if I feel
115
:it's relevant, but I'm still never
going to tell someone what to do.
116
:If I think someone might be heading
down a path of problems or disaster,
117
:I'm going to say, I think, be careful
here and consider your options.
118
:I would always say that anyway,
consider all of your options here.
119
:And look at what's going to
be the best path forward.
120
:It's really never about me telling
somebody what to do, other than, if
121
:there's something I want them to download
and say, Oh, take a look at this,
122
:this is going to be helpful to you.
123
:Or no, if we're doing a working through
our program, as we do with clients, let's
124
:move on to the next part of the program.
125
:That's as close as we probably
get to telling people what to
126
:do to get on this call with us.
127
:Let's see.
128
:It's going to be helpful.
129
:But in terms of directing your life,
it's like, well, when we can offer
130
:opinions and we can offer advice,
but you have to make the decision.
131
:And I think we will have to be clear
about it's going to be your decision.
132
:So In my head, that's where it goes,
is that I don't have liability
133
:for the decisions my clients make.
134
:But it's interesting to me that you make
that point of, well, sometimes these
135
:lawsuits and stuff can be frivolous
and, or they can have no real grounding.
136
:And it's a really good point because
you may have done nothing wrong.
137
:And you may still find yourself
having to pay legal costs to defend
138
:yourself in a case where it's
going to ultimately get found out,
139
:probably that you did nothing wrong.
140
:You may still have to pay some costs.
141
:So you may end up getting
your costs covered.
142
:If the case gets thrown out or you
get found to be probably more likely
143
:civil cases you get found in favor,
the jury or the judge finds in favor
144
:of you in those situations, you may
still have a lot of costs that you
145
:don't really want to be coming out of
your personal finances, that insurance
146
:could help you there and it can happen,
I think it's probably somewhat rare.
147
:I haven't encountered it very much and I
imagine it is more of a thing of I've done
148
:coaching in the financial area and some
of my fellow coaches in that area have.
149
:sometimes worked with clients
and directed them towards
150
:particular kinds of investments.
151
:Which is something I would never
do because I wasn't ever prepared
152
:to have the liability for that.
153
:And even getting them to sign
a waiver or disclaimer to say,
154
:if any, if this doesn't work
155
:Angie: You just read my mind.
156
:John: Yeah, I even wonder how is
that going to protect you completely?
157
:If you're going to go down that path,
you're moving into the territory of
158
:being a financial advisor, in which
case you probably would want to have
159
:professional insurance or a wealth
advisor or an investment advisor.
160
:Those are things where you probably
are giving more of your expert opinion.
161
:Hey, you should try this investment.
162
:And you would be leaving yourself
open for potential litigation
163
:if those things don't work out.
164
:Angie: I think there's always
the potential for litigation.
165
:I think I just anything you do,
literally you could drive to McDonald's,
166
:burn yourself with coffee and there's
167
:litigation
168
:and it can happen anywhere.
169
:When I was setting up my business like
super professionally and I did decide
170
:to incorporate the insurance, there
were some things even in my contract
171
:that I had an attorney talked to an
attorney and said, Hey, Who am I?
172
:I don't want to look this up
on, Google Docs or whatever to
173
:figure out what I should say.
174
:What I want to make sure that, even
and even though you have that, that's
175
:where that disclaimer comes in.
176
:So when somebody signs a contract to
work with me, there are pieces of that
177
:that are very specific, that if I ever
feel that you might harm yourself or
178
:somebody else or whatever, that I'm going
to alert authorities or I even have an
179
:emergency contact on there because, not
doing something is even a liability.
180
:So, I don't, you know, again, I don't
want to go too far down like the legal
181
:side of it because maybe there are some
attorneys out there that are, turned
182
:coach that are listening and they
could shed some light at some point.
183
:I think it depends on where you
are, I think it depends on what
184
:you do, and to your point, what you
were doing with NLP was definitely
185
:more of a therapeutic approach.
186
:But the interesting thing though, is
as you were saying that, I'm like, Some
187
:of our clients definitely come into
sessions that are, they're very emotional
188
:and that doesn't mean that they need
therapy, but they look at coaching as like
189
:maybe even a substitution for therapy.
190
:So I think that we, and this is
part of that obligation is we need
191
:to have that conversation and say
to somebody and set them straight.
192
:I may not be the right person for you.
193
:This is not therapy.
194
:And I've had people ask me,
well, what's the difference?
195
:Well, there's many differences which
maybe we'll talk about at a later time.
196
:But in the meantime, it's more
about keeping everybody protected.
197
:So when I look at that, I think to
myself, well, this just isn't just
198
:my insurance policy to provide
some kind of shelter for me
199
:I don't want some partner or spouse
going, So and so did something really bad
200
:after they had their session with you.
201
:Well, it's not my job to
decipher What is gonna tick them
202
:off or you know what I mean?
203
:Like sometimes when you do deep
heavy work with people as a coach
204
:It can definitely trigger people.
205
:So again to me The thing that is you
just never know So I just feel like
206
:let me have that You I would say to
you, you said something earlier that
207
:makes sense, like we cannot protect
ourselves from all the things.
208
:There's loopholes in every
single document written, right?
209
:So even though I have a contract,
even though there's specific
210
:verbiage, all of those things, If
something happens, something happens.
211
:I feel better with it, than
without it, because who am I?
212
:How am I?
213
:I don't know what, if somebody were
to rule against me or something and
214
:say, well, because you're this, you
should have known better, or something.
215
:You know, whatever that even turns into.
216
:We certainly couldn't even
begin to think of all the
217
:possibilities of what could happen
218
:John: exactly and I'm I don't doubt that
there is a great case to be made for The
219
:peace of mind that having professional
insurance cover can give you even if
220
:it doesn't protect you necessarily from
anything Everything is going to be a lot
221
:more potential than you might otherwise
have, and you may never need it, but
222
:that's true of pretty much any insurance.
223
:I we have insurance, but we hope
we never need it, and it, but it's
224
:there when we do, and sometimes
we have to have insurance.
225
:I do think it is worth checking out
what other people I know some of
226
:my position may be from ignorance
and just, you don't, sometimes you
227
:don't know what you don't know.
228
:So I feel reasonably safe as a
coach that probably not going
229
:to encounter those things.
230
:So that may be true,
but you just never know.
231
:And
232
:yeah,
233
:I think it is something.
234
:people may want to consider is
like, what is your peace of mind?
235
:What is your level of risk conversion here
as to whether you want to have it or not.
236
:And also the cost might be a
consideration for many coaches as well.
237
:How much is it going to
cost you to have that?
238
:Perhaps where if you have stuff out
there that is maybe a little more along
239
:the lines of courses, programs that
are offering specific results, you at
240
:the very least need to have some sort
of guarantee and some sort of process
241
:for handling potential complaints.
242
:Do you need insurance?
243
:I'm curious as I'd be curious to know
how many people in that area even
244
:have insurance that would protect them
from stuff that might come back there.
245
:Because I think it's probably something
most people don't feel they need.
246
:Most of the situations that are
probably going to ever rise up from
247
:those things are going to relate to
probably the best thing to do is to
248
:give a refund and they're part ways
rather than someone's actually going
249
:to try and sue you professionally.
250
:But it may depend on the particular
advice or guidance that's given.
251
:Angie: I think too, and I just
want to touch on this, but I feel
252
:like I'm a little bringing this
up a little bit late in the game.
253
:We're talking about having insurance
and think about a car accident, right?
254
:Even if you have done nothing wrong, the
fact that somebody rear ended you and
255
:the fact that you were just sitting at
that red light or that stop sign, you
256
:have liability automatically just because
you were there, which is so unfair.
257
:It's just the way the rules go.
258
:With that kind of thought in mind, I
think about it and I say to myself, well,
259
:if I didn't have it am I opening myself
up to liability and I probably will
260
:never use it and all of those things.
261
:But sometimes people, when they
know that there's insurance,
262
:can become opportunistic.
263
:There are just those situations.
264
:I've heard of them.
265
:I knock on wood, hear that?
266
:I've never experienced them.
267
:But the two occasions that I heard of
prior work coaches that I knew very well.
268
:And when the story came out this
is why they're coming after me.
269
:I was like in shock because it was so
in my perception, it was very minute.
270
:It wasn't that big a deal.
271
:But I would say that if you're
going to buy the insurance,
272
:make sure you understand what
the policy actually covers.
273
:Like any insurance and if you need to have
certain type of contracts and by the way
274
:yes, you should have a contract, by the
way, folks, we want to make sure of that.
275
:But make sure that it's as
thorough as it needs to be for the
276
:level of work that you're doing.
277
:That's really what it comes down to.
278
:Protect yourself a bit.
279
:, John: there is another kind of insurance
that we haven't talked about which
280
:might be worth considering for coaches,
especially those who are self-employed
281
:coaches, which is insurance on.
282
:Your health for not and I don't just
mean for hospitalization and things
283
:but insurance on your income because
if you get sick most of the time your
284
:work is going to be Dependent on you
being there and showing up and you may
285
:have stuff that is like online courses
programs and stuff that you don't actually
286
:have to be there in person for great.
287
:If you've got all that, the stuff
you can keep running, even if you get
288
:sick, but for most coaches, probably
the reality is if you get sick, you're
289
:going to lose income rescheduling.
290
:People doesn't always look at you
possibly going to lose income,
291
:especially if you end up being
sick for a long period of time.
292
:I do think it probably is worth
considering those kind of insurances
293
:that protect your income as a self
employed person if you do end up sick
294
:and unable to work for whatever reason.
295
:So it's worth taking a look at that
296
:Angie: I think you've probably
caught the attention of so many
297
:people because I have heard of it.
298
:I've never really looked into it and
i'm seeing and scratching my head
299
:going Why didn't you think about that?
300
:Because the chances of that happening
might be better than maybe somebody
301
:else initiating something against me So
really super curious now i'm like I'm
302
:gonna have to make a phone call today
and find out like hey, what is this?
303
:Because i've never inquired I have to
be honest A little bit ignorant on it.
304
:I know nothing about it, but
definitely piqued my interest for sure.
305
:John: So the insurance question I
guess always comes down to how much
306
:peace of mind would you like to have
to know that even if you might never
307
:need it and that you have a level of
coverage that's probably going to keep
308
:you well protected and well covered
if it's within affordability for you.
309
:And it's going to give you some peace
of mind, then great, it's probably
310
:going to be well worth looking at.
311
:I do know for many people, one
of the reasons why I didn't have
312
:it for a long time was just cost.
313
:Initially the coaching cover that I had
was actually fairly low cost, but if
314
:I spoke to any of the major insurance
companies about it in the UK this was,
315
:the cost from them was a lot higher.
316
:So we're talking the difference between
like less than 100 and over a 300 or even
317
:over a 500 in some cases per year for
that level, for the same level of cover.
318
:Yeah, so something that wasn't really on
the cards for me and many coaches when
319
:they're just getting started are possibly
not going to find that kind of money.
320
:I wouldn't want it to be something
that necessarily stops you
321
:from getting started, but I'm
certainly not saying don't get it.
322
:Just saying.
323
:Look at your options.
324
:If you can manage it, it's going
to be some peace of mind for you.
325
:I do wanna come back to this just quickly
because you mentioned that you actually
326
:know some people who have been gone after.
327
:And so are you able to share
what those things were that they,
328
:even if they were frivolous, what,
what did they go after them for
329
:Angie: so one of them was Because their
marriage ended and it was actually the
330
:spouse That's kind of why I alluded
like weak partner spouse, whatever and
331
:the other one was they quit a Super
high level Job, super high level,
332
:meaning, income in the United States,
it was like over 400, 000 a year,
333
:which is a nice income I'd have to say.
334
:And like setting these pie in the
sky, expectations, if you will.
335
:And interestingly one of them
did receive compensation,
336
:John: It is interesting.
337
:Angie: but it wasn't, it was more of
so like I said, there's always fault.
338
:No matter what, you could be
sitting at the light and somebody
339
:hits you and you're at fault.
340
:Just because of the engagement,
there was automatic fault.
341
:And again, I wouldn't, I'd be
lying if I could tell you if I
342
:told you that I knew all the ins
and outs, but I knew the overview.
343
:The first one was like, you know what?
344
:You got divorced because your marriage
stopped, I don't know what to tell you.
345
:The second one, because there was
so much money at stake and that
346
:person was saying I had this great
job and no, I didn't love it.
347
:I hated it, but it was what kept
the lights on and the bellies full.
348
:I was the primary income and all
the things and there was a judgment.
349
:So I, that was baffling to me Oh, so
you did something, you helped somebody
350
:get to a place where they were happier
or whatever, whatever that was.
351
:And somebody actually came
back and bit you for that.
352
:So, that to me was like, and
that was really my opinion when
353
:I heard the story at the time.
354
:I was like, Oh my goodness,
like somebody would do that?
355
:Come after you for helping to better
their lives and energy and all
356
:the things that we do as coaches.
357
:And that's when I was like, I need
to have this because it was okay.
358
:It was substantial enough that
the cost of the insurance for
359
:years would not have cost that.
360
:John: Yeah,
361
:Angie: Was it millions?
362
:It wasn't hundreds of thousands.
363
:It was millions.
364
:It was probably around 25, 000,
but Paolo, do you want to go
365
:stroke a check for 25, 000?
366
:I don't.
367
:Mm mm.
368
:John: It is a good thing to just
recognize that the unexpected can
369
:be out there and the law isn't.
370
:always as fair or just as we might hope
it is certainly in its application.
371
:And often people with money or from money
do find it easier to go for litigation.
372
:And some people are just
more litigious in general.
373
:And we have to be aware that you get what
you get, that said, I have never had that
374
:issue, so far, hopefully never will, and
I don't know any other coaches who have
375
:it would be, it's interesting, it's like,
yeah, do you want it, do you not, do you
376
:need it, do you not, make up your own
mind, get your information, have a think
377
:about it, I guess if you're listening, if
you're listening to this episode, you're
378
:at least thinking about it anyway so go
and find out what your options are and
379
:see how you want to proceed from there.
380
:And,
381
:Angie: moment.
382
:Just, you know what?
383
:Do yourself a favor.
384
:Even if you think, I don't want
that, just do what you just said.
385
:Just go check it out.
386
:See what the options are and see
what the coverage could look like.
387
:And.
388
:Honestly, the insurance, the person that I
spoke with when I got the insurance, they
389
:were more able to tell me like, Oh this
is really what this is going to cover.
390
:And that enlightened me a little bit too.
391
:Before you make a final decision, just do
a little bit of research and then make,
392
:at least make that educated decision.
393
:So
394
:that's all I have to say about it.
395
:Hope it
396
:John: That's our recommendation.
397
:Make an educated, make your best educated
decision as to whether or not to have him.
398
:Great.
399
:I think we've done as
much as we can do here.
400
:And if anyone does want to contribute more
he has better understanding and insight
401
:of the insurance world and how this
relates to coaches or self employed people
402
:that might be able to offer some extra
insight, by all means, get in contact
403
:with us and we've maybe even bring them
404
:on the show.
405
:Angie: Yeah.
406
:Absolutely.
407
:John: For now, that's it from us.
408
:We'll be back next week with more
good stuff from the coaching clinic.
409
:See you then
410
:Angie: Bye bye!