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#181 - Lessons in Surrender with Bronnie Ware
Episode 1819th February 2022 • Happy Mama Movement with Amy Taylor-Kabbaz • Amy Taylor-Kabbaz
00:00:00 00:37:40

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What happens when we fell like we are powerless and don't have a choice? Do we carry on regardless, or aim to find peace while committing to presence?

The conversation between Amy Taylor-Kabbaz and Bronnie Ware is enticing, captivating and has the ability to shift your perspective moving forward. Listen as they discuss:

  • learning to be grateful for freedoms you are given, and how acceptance alongside chronic disease can heal and offer a different appreciation in life
  • letting go of control and trusting in the big picture
  • how happiness is in the known
  • committing to presence, dreaming and understanding the power of being in the moment.

The dynamic between Amy and Bronnie is one which reconnects, inspires and portrays exactly why conversations like this are needed in order to grow and develop in todays world.

For more information about Bronnie please visit her website https://bronnieware.com/.

The song, Turn Off The News And Build A Garden by Melanie Horsnell (mentioned in this episode) is also available at https://youtu.be/7UgETOLrw5I

There needs to be a change in the way mothers are valued and seen in our society. We are here to spread the whispers of Matrescence together.

Find out more and receive your Matrescence map here https://www.amytaylorkabbaz.com/matrescence/

Transcripts

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Welcome to the happy mama movement podcast.

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I'm Amy Taylor-Kabbaz.

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I would like to start by acknowledging the Gadigal people of the aura nation

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on which this podcast is recorded as the traditional custodians of this land.

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And pay my respects to the elders past, present and emerging.

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And as this podcast is dedicated to the wisdom and knowledge of motherhood, I

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would like to acknowledge the mothers of this land, the elders, their wisdom.

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They're knowing and my own elders and teachers.

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Welcome back mamas recently at the start of 2022, I reached out to the

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many beautiful parents and Mamas in my communities and ask them, how

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are you feeling at this new year?

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What are you struggling with?

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What answers are you seeking?

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Who can I go and speak to on your behalf?

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What are you most needing?

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And over and over again, the answers came back to me.

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How do we keep hope after all of this time?

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How do we keep the faith?

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When it feels like this is never going to end?

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How do we find our resilience?

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How do we keep on going?

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And so for the coming few episodes, I'm going to bring you the people

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authors and teachers that I feel can answer these questions.

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And the first of those is Bronnie Ware.

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I don't know how many times I have interviewed Bronnie over the years.

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She is one of the most grounded, yet beautifully inspiring voices I know.

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She has been through so much in her life and has shared many of it in her books.

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Most notably the top five regrets of the dying, which is

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an international bestseller.

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I also really loved her book, Bloom, and it was one of the main reasons I

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wanted to reach out to her and hear how she's been doing over the last two

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years and how she is holding on to hope.

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And in this conversation, what I discovered was that all of this

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is really lessons in surrender.

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I know Bonnie's words will heal and inspire.

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Like they always do for me.

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I hope you can find some peace in this conversation.

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Enjoy.

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Bronnie.

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Thank you.

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As always for saying yes.

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And stepping into this space with me.

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It's so lovely to connect with you again.

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It's beautiful to be here.

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Amy.

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I have so much respect for your work and I love any excuse to

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catch up with you to be honest.

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Can I tell you one little story?

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I I've been struggling the last few weeks of what to say.

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To this beautiful community that listened to this podcast and follow my work.

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I've been really feeling like something needs to be said,

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but I don't know what it is.

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And that's not a space I'm very comfortable with.

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I have to say, I usually like to know where I'm going and

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what I want to say about it.

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And so I was talking to the important people in my life and sharing this worry.

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And my Mum actually said to me, why don't you reach out to Bronnie Ware Amy?

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Because I remember in Bloom where the whole book was her saying,

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this is what I'm working towards.

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This is what I'm manifesting.

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This is what I want for my life.

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And you assume that is going to come.

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All the way through the book, you think?

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Yes.

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Yes.

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It's going to come.

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It's going to come and in the end, it's still an open end.

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It's still not there.

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And she finds a way to be okay with the timing.

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Okay.

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With what's happened.

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Okay.

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With still not being a hundred percent in her body, still

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having all these questions.

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And my Mum said, I want to hear what Bronnie has to say right now.

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So that is why I reached out to you.

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Hello?

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Amy s Mum.

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We talk about you all the time.

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And you know, that, that book, I know the whole world fell in

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love with the five regrets of the dying, but Bloom changed my life.

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I love that book.

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If anyone hasn't read it, please grab it, especially now.

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So.

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Let's begin by asking, how are you, how have you been over the past two years?

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Um, Well, you know, COVID is a bit of a mess, isn't it?

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That's, that's thrown a spanner in the works for us all, uh, physically

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I was doing really, really well.

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Uh, and then I wasn't, and in, this year I went downhill really

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badly, with rheumatoid arthritis.

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And so it's never been in remission, but I've been well enough to ride my

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bike and swim right through winter and you know, it function, function well.

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And.

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And so always been grateful for that because when you've been in a place where

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you can even wipe your own backside, you, you learn to be grateful for

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any, any freedoms that you're given.

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But a few months ago it just came back terribly.

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And I ended up spending a couple of months, pretty

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much just stuck in my chair.

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And I got ended up getting a lift chair to help me stand in and everything.

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My daughter was, drying me from the shower.

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She was putting me to bed she's only nine.

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So it weighed very heavily on her, which of course.

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Ignited my mum, guilt, severely and had to really work through that a lot.

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And, but one of the things I always find when, where we're pretty much,

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you know, when the, the carpet's pulled out from underneath us and we

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were at a time in our life where we really have absolutely no control.

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For me, I find the most peaceful way through it is to accept that and to

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understand that, okay, we all like control and we all like routines and

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routines certainly support us as Mums and they support our children as well.

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And that's coming from someone who always had a strong aversion to

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routines, but when the world is, you know, it totally collapses.

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There's there's only one thing to do, and that is to surrender with

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trust and to understand that okay.

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In the big picture, there's something.

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Better going on here, then how it appears.

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And when I I'm able to do that, and often any of us can only surrender when

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we've tried every other option and tried every, um, grasp at control that we can.

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And then we reached this point.

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And so for me, because I've been through this before, not just with, with

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disease, but with lessons in surrender.

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I don't have as much resistance to it anymore.

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I just think, oh, okay, well, I didn't see this coming.

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So, but okay.

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What's the best way through this.

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And the best way through it of course, is to trust in it.

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And so I did, and I just let go.

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Uh, as much work as I could, I was really just doing maintenance and because my

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head was too heavy for my neck, um, there were some days my hands weren't strong

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enough to even open the lid on my laptop.

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Um, you know, so that's pretty much saying just rest.

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And so I just.

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Rested and read books and hung out with the dog.

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And there's nothing else I could do, but just be, and through that, I, I came to

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some really good decisions with my work and let go of some things that I'd want it

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to let go of for ages but logic had told me not to, even though my heart wanted

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to let go of certain aspects of my work.

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So I'm actually in a really positive place now because I'm on new meds.

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And as you'd know, from reading Bloom and just from knowing me anyway,

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Amy, I did get really blinded by the wellness industry when I was first

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diagnosed with, with RA and I was very determined to, to heal it naturally.

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And.

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Uh, you know, I just ask any listeners, please don't send any links to, to

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all the things that you think will fix me because I've done it all.

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And sometimes the disease is the healing.

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And so I'm on new meds now and I've got my mobility back, which

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means I've got my confidence back.

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I've got my life back.

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, I'm able to.

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To function again and reach out to friends and go out and not just, sit there,

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waiting in a chair on my own, waiting for my daughter or my, my carer to walk in

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the door and help me get to the toilet.

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So, um, I'm doing great because I have a different appreciation

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for a freedom in life.

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A lot of people don't um, so, so yeah.

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Um, and I've got the dog, you know, at the moment I've got my feet up and a dog,

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my little doggy along right beside me.

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And so, um, yeah, and I, and I'm visiting my Mum, but I've

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just had a week to myself.

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My Mum took my daughter for a week.

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And so I'm just really overwhelmed in gratitude right now.

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Oh, you make me cry every time we speak.

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And it's like, no, no, one's on a pedestal.

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There are no gurus.

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But I do feel like at times when I am completely uncertain and struggling with

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control, I feel like I want to sit at your feet and say, Bronnie, remind me again how

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to do this because I hear what you say.

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So clearly.

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That this is about surrender and trust.

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And I too have felt like I've come back to that lesson so many times over the

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last 18 months, and yet I fight it.

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So, you know, I I think have surrendered.

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I think I trust.

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And then it's like, the universe goes, no, no, Amy, you're still hanging with.

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Surrender more surrender, more, surrender more.

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Are there times in that process of what you've just been through again,

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where you are fighting it saying, I thought I've already done this.

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I thought I already surrendered.

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And what do you do in that?

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Um, well I'll get the shits with it.

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Absolutely.

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It's not a like, okay, God, I trust you.

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It's just like, oh, I got to bring enough of this.

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I've done it.

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You know, there are moments, I feel sorry for myself and I've done everything right.

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I've done everything you've told me.

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I'll be brave.

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I've done this.

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I've done that.

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So I go through those stages.

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Absolutely.

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But then when you're sort of don't have a choice, like an

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obvious choice in front of you.

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It's either, carry on like that, or find your peace with it.

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And so one of the things I find my peace with is the fact that I, I

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am really committed to presence.

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And that is one of the blessings from looking after dying people for all those

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years, that I don't want to miss my life.

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Even if my life is feeling crappy at the time.

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I don't want to spend my life wishing for, for the future and miss what today is.

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And even though it's really uncomfortable and it can be painful physically,

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emotionally, mentally, all of it.

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It's also, I never lose trust.

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Well, hardly ever.

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I mean, if I do, I find it again quite soon, but yeah, there's there's moments

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that breaks me, but generally I can always find trust, in the lesson and

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think, okay, I've been through a lot of bad stuff and the shocking, hard

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trauma and only good has come from it.

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And so when I'm stuck in that chair, I think, okay.

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Besides the pain, besides the lack of mobility and freedom there.

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I'm actually doing a lot more of what I wanted to do here.

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I wanted to spend less time at work.

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I wanted to read more big thick books.

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I wanted to just chill out and not feel guilty for taking time off.

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And so what I find is these moments actually get, uh, trying to give us

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what we're asking for, um, or until it becomes a habit, and then we

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can have all the good back as well.

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And so once I'd got to that point where I thought,

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okay.

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I am going to make these decisions around my work, no matter how

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it looks or how scared I am.

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And one of the decisions I made was to close both my online courses, because I

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just felt like tech was too noisy in my world and I wanted to be offline more.

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So I'm basically forfeiting a significant income to do that with, with no idea.

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Other than wanting creativity to pull me forward, to replace it.

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So, you know, I, life was giving me a taste of that.

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And then once I made that decision, like, okay, I'm going to let go.

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That's when I started getting better, again, like I'm going

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to let go of the courses and I started getting better again.

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So.

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I don't know Amy.

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I mean, I do get sick of it.

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Some times I think, okay, surely I've got this sorted now, you know, but

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surrender is layers and layers and the whole planet's on a lesson of surrender

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at the moment and letting go of control.

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And if we can trust in the big picture, I know it all sounds, you know, very

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philosophical and spiritual and, and it is, um, But it's it, it's actually

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the way you find peace through it.

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It is.

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And as I'm listening to you, I have this sort of body memory of.

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I don't know if everyone listening has ever experienced this, where

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you have this almost as tantrum where you're kicking and screaming.

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I don't want this, why's it like this?

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And it's like, you release all of this control and resistance.

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And when that's done, you're finally exhausted.

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You're finally able to rest.

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It's like that deep, deep sleep that comes after a big cry.

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You know what I mean?

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Yeah.

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See it goes into the fight.

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That's right.

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And I wonder when we talk about surrender, surrender includes that fight first.

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I'm just thinking about this out loud as I'm listening to you, because

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I have always, and a bit like you with the spiritual world and the

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self-help world, you know, for many, many years thought that for me to be.

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Um, happy.

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They couldn't be any darkness.

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They couldn't be any anger or resistance or doubt or fear or control.

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You know, it was an affirmation.

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We'll fix this.

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I'll just start saying I love my life even though on a day-to-day basis, I

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didn't, there was, uh, there was almost another part of it that I was missing.

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So I wonder when we talk about surrender.

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Surrender is not just saying, okay, I trust this, perhaps

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there's also a fight first.

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And then you finally surrender, like maybe what we're doing

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at the moment is part of it.

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What do you think.

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Yeah, I think you've articulated that beautifully.

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And, and you're right there.

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Of course there's a fight because we're scared and we're losing

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control and we just had it all under control and exactly how we liked it.

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And now our lives saying no time to grow some more.

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And so of course, yeah, we're going to grasp at what we had, what

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we just got sorted and, and so.

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I think surrender does come after that, that initial fight.

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And, and I think it's natural to, to want to hold onto that.

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And because with control can come some ease and it, we find life's easier.

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Um, that's where the happiness is.

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I mean, happiness isn't in the, in the unknown until you, you

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really cracked open and then.

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You say, oh, okay.

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I'm letting go of my self here.

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And I'm just going to let life lead me and then happiness can return.

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But it's from a very, um, open-hearted spiritual perspective rather

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than a, than a human perspective.

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Um, I love that happiness is in the known.

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Yeah.

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And that's why it feels scary to let go, because we don't know what

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we're going to feel in the unknown.

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But as you said, the whole world's doing this at the moment.

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This is not, we keep talking about returning to normal.

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And it reminds me Bronnie, of the, of the process after motherhood, where we

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kind of wait for us to return back to who we used to be like when the baby

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starts sleeping or when they start school or when I can go back to work,

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we'll be, I'll feel like myself again.

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And the, and the healing and the freedom comes when you realise.

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No, I'm never going to be that person again.

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And I feel like we need to accept that right now with

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this global pandemic it's gone.

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It's changed us.

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We're never going to go back to normal as in who we used to be, but within

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that, there's great opportunities for us to be better, more compassionate,

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more aware than ever before.

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Uh, well, that's right.

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And I've just got to say, Amy, your work on matresence has helped me

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enormously my, my own birth story.

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I don't think I've ever really gone into it much with you, but, but it was, I had

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so much grief around it and, um, yeah.

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And, and your work has helped me enormously.

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So thank you.

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Thanks.

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Yeah.

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Thank you for that.

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Um, yeah, we won't go back to.

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To, to the old normal, because the old normal wasn't sustainable for any

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of us, it wasn't sustainable for the planet, but it also wasn't sustainable

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for its own individual levels.

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We were all just trying too hard.

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It doesn't have to be that hard.

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Yeah.

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It's true.

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This well learning to slow down and we're learning to prioritize

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our space and our wellbeing.

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And we're all getting a taste of more home life and a simpler life.

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And even though there is a certain mentality, like, go, go, go, and you

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can do all this and can be all that.

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Yeah, you can do all that, but at what price.

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And so, you know, through these last two years, We're all being forced to

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slow down and get it to taste of that.

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And a lot of us are realizing actually I do want that, but you know, I might

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be too scared to let go of certain things that will permit me that.

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And so I think that the reason that it's not all over yet globally is because.

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We haven't learnt or we've got to learn individually and as a species yet where

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we're learning and there's, there's absolutely a positive shift of kindness

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and compassion happening, but I don't think it's tilted quite enough yet.

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And when I think about it from that perspective, I just stay really

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present and trusting and think.

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Okay.

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And one of the, one of the good things about being committed to presence is.

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It's not a resignation.

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It's not like, oh, okay, I'm going to stop dreaming.

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It's like, I'm going to keep dreaming because I'm human and it's natural

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to want to expand and to dream.

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But I'm also just going to be present and understand that this

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what's happening now is part of my journey and is just as significant

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as me getting that dream realized.

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So.

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Can I explore that a little with you, when you say committed to

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presence, what does that look like?

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What, what does that actually look like in the moment?

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Okay.

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Well, it's freedom.

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It's, it's free.

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It's freedom because you know, you've, you're human, you know,

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you've got your dreams, but you trust in the timing of it all because.

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You understand you growing into your readiness.

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And so it's not the right time yet, even though you can think you're ready,

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um, you just trust in the timing.

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And so instead of just like you do what you can towards your dream, but

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instead of everything being focused on that dream, you just come back

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and give yourself permission to just be in the moment and being in the

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moment, it's actually really easy.

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Well, life is easy when you're in the moment, because when

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you're in that moment, you're not thinking worried about your future.

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How are you going to navigate something?

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How are you going to make something happen?

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You're not caught up in trauma from the past, or, you know, angry or

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unforgiving with anyone you not, you know, regretful about things you've done.

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You're just in that moment.

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And in that moment, if you breathe into that moment, no matter what is going on.

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If you can breathe into it, even if your kids are going off their heads or you're

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overwhelmed, or, you know, the dog's sitting at your feet, you can't even go

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to the toilet without a dog, looking at you for attention as well, its like oh my

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goodness.

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True story.

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Um, but when you breathe into presence, you're reconnecting with yourself and

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with your wisdom and you can stop and see all the chaos but you see beyond that

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and you see the beauty in your children's hearts and that their storm isn't really

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about them going outside the lines in coloring in their story is about overwhelm

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and just needing a hug from their Mum and leading presence from their Mum.

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And, or it might be that you just need to let go of the pressure you've got

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on yourself, nothing about motherhood or about work or about whatever.

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So for me, being committed to presence means just letting go

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and breathing in the moment and looking around me in that moment.

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And when I do that with the first thing that always comes up is gratitude.

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And I think, okay, look, how far I've come.

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I own this sweet little house.

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I became a Mum at 45.

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I have a beautiful daughter.

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You know, there's always something as soon as I can breathe into presence.

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There's gratitude and it might just be looking at the blue sky today, or I know

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I blessed to be a single Mum and be able to afford my mortgage easily and, um,

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live in a simple, sweet little house when there's families of 20, that would live in

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the same size house as, as us, you know?

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Um, and now houses little, I just, um, find breathing into presence

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like returning to presence is really.

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Being mindful of your breath and the power of that, and

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just returning to your breath.

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And that's really that that's where, um, where wisdom comes in, I guess, because we

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all know it, but it's actually having the mindfulness to return to it repeatedly.

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And meditation teachers do that.

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Having a strong meditation practice.

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Yes.

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It reminds me of that.

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When I remember to do that, it's this thought of in this moment, I'm okay.

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In this moment.

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I'm okay.

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I'm still breathing.

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I'm still here.

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I can take another breath, you know, instead of that mind, that worries.

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But what about this?

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And what if the pandemic locks us all down again?

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And what if this person doesn't sign up for that?

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And what if, what if, what if, what if breath in this moment?

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Yeah, I love that.

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Can I ask you, um, if I may, how you process or processed the mother guilt

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that you mentioned earlier around recognising what your daughter is

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experiencing through your own disease?

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Um, I asked because in all ways, Every mama, every parent that's listening to,

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this has at some stage experience, this feeling of, oh, this is a lot for them.

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And I wish I could protect them, whether it's because you're ill or because

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you're struggling or you're going through something and they see it and feel it.

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How have you processed that?

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Well, I like the saying that they take the baby out and put the guilt in.

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I heard that once I thought, oh, okay.

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Okay.

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That's a good start.

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Um, well I just stop and realise that I'm doing the best I can, and I would

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love to be a better Mum all the time, but everyone would, and I look back at how my

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Mum was and I thought she was a great Mum.

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Uh, you know, when I look back now, I realised she was actually way

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too busy to meet most of my needs.

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She had four kids in five years and a husband who didn't really help much,

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um, a raging alcoholic, husband.

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And so I, I sort of just think, well, we do the best we can

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as who we are at that time.

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And My daughter came in the door the other day and we have

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really amazing communication.

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It's just the two of us.

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It wasn't planned that way, but I ended up becoming a single Mum

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from halfway through the pregnancy.

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But it applies to whether you've got a partner or not.

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We all, like you've just said, we all have moments where we see we're not meeting

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their needs enough, but I say to Elena all the time, sweetie, I'm not perfect.

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And when you grow up, you'll see, you'll realise that we're all, that all adults

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are just still finding their way as well.

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And we're all doing the best we can as who we are in that moment.

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And.

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And sh I hear her repeating it back to me sometimes.

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It's okay, Mum we all make mistakes.

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It's human to make mistakes.

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It's how we learn.

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It's how we grow.

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And it's like, okay, she's taking some of this in.

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But, um, but she came in the door the other day and she said,

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I hurt myself on my scooter.

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And I was just finishing off something.

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She, we live in a gated community and she'd been with neighbors and

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playing with it with some neighbors on the, going around the loop.

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And, and I just said, well, of course you did darling.

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It, you know, we do as kids on scooters, we heard ourselves all the time, but I was

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just, finishing off something for work.

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And then I finished it off and.

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Uh, she seemed a bit funny and I said, well, go have a shower and let's sit

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down and watch a show together just for some cuddle time or whatever.

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And we did that.

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It was lovely.

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And it wasn't until the next day in the car, we were on a trip

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and she said, You know, Mum was really angry at you yesterday.

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And I said, why honey, what happened?

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And she said, well, when I came in the door and I said that about the scooter,

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I really needed you at that moment.

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And you weren't there for me.

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And gosh, you know, when I was nine, I would never have even recognised that.

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You know, and you weren't there for me, Mum and it felt really bad.

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It's like, you didn't even care.

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It's went on and on and on.

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And I just said, oh darling, I'm so sorry.

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I missed that.

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I, I really missed it.

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I said, but sometimes now you're at an age, you know, she's almost 10.

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And I said, you're at an age where I have to ask you for a kiss.

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Hello.

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When you walk in the door sometimes now, or I don't even ask you, I just

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let you come in the door because.

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You're getting a bit too cool or a bit independent now where your friends are you

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bigger priority and you not always that interested in me and our relationship.

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And I said, and I'm excited for you about that because it's part of

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growing up and becoming independent.

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But sometimes I hold myself back and I don't want to smother

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you because I want to give you that freedom to be independent.

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And I forgot in that moment that you still, my little girl

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as well, and I'm really sorry.

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And I stuffed up, but thank you for telling me.

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And I'm really, really sorry.

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And she was cooling cause she she'd been heard, but there are times that

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Amy, when it's not that obvious and that clear and all I do is I say,

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Bronnie, you did the best you can.

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On that day as who you were in that moment, because we are, we're all

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doing our best and we really need to give ourselves permission to be human.

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And to understand that we are never going to meet every one of our kids' needs,

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like whatever we're going to do our best.

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And we're still going to let our children down in some way, because

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we're human and that's part of their journey as well as ours.

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And isn't that so different than previous generations, Bronnie

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ware, uh, you know, you were never upset in front of your kids.

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You would never argue in front of your kids.

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You definitely would never admit that you did anything wrong.

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You know, the kids were wrong and the parents were right.

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It was this real, um, hierarchy.

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And I think what we all should be so incredibly proud of is the way

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that we're doing that different.

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With our children in this generation, we're showing our flaws.

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We're showing our struggles.

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We're saying, look, yeah, I stuffed that up yesterday and I'm really sorry.

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I'll try my best again tomorrow because hopefully then when these amazing human

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beings become adults, they won't be stuck in this story of, I have to try so hard.

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I can't stop.

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I have to please everybody.

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You know, I'm hoping that our vulnerability in parenting right now,

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Is going to allow them to grow up and be more vulnerable and honest and amazingly,

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emotionally mature like your daughter is.

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Um, I think that that's what we're doing here.

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Yeah.

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I think you're right.

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And it's a bit of a dance, you know, and it's a fine balance because you want them

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to understand that being vulnerable is that there's, you know, it's, it's not

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only acceptable, but it's it's right.

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And it's powerful to, to be able to express your feelings, but at the

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same time, You don't want them to become the adult in the sense that

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you don't want to rip them off from their childhood and give them too much

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exposure to life that they have to grow up faster than the necessary it's it,

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it is a bit of a fine, fine balance.

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And I just try and look at it as a dance and I think, okay.

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Sometimes they get the steps wrong and sometimes I get them really.

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Right.

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So, yeah.

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It's.

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Yeah.

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And it's powerful for this generation, these kids coming through a, so much

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wiser and more evolved than we ever were in, or I think in my observation.

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And so we're giving them the tools to be able to, to just show up as themselves.

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And yeah, it's, it's a really exciting time for them to

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grow up in, in a lot of ways.

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And, and it's an honor for us to have done the work on ourselves to actually

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show up and to be able to put the work we've done into practice because,

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you know, we can actually see the benefits of the work we're putting in.

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I love that.

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It's like you said earlier, the disease is the healing.

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It's like the parenting is the healing.

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We get to practice this in these times, you know, maybe COVID is the healing, the

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parenting, the struggles, the disease, whatever it is that you are facing today,

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that's making you feel heavy and stuck.

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And maybe you're still in the fight before the surrender.

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You know, can we see that this is where we get to practice.

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This is where we get to put into place.

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All the things that we've been reading about or wanting to know, or as you

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said, the lessons I most needed.

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The things I really needed to let go of have shown up in this moment.

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Yeah, we won't get much better learning role than being parents.

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Holy Dooley.

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And you know in a way I'm like, I think I got it universe.

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Like, I think I've got it.

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14 years of parenting.

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I get it.

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Please.

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Don't send me any more challenges, but that's just not the way it works.

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That's not

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the way it works.

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And then there'll be challenges when.

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You know, when your oldest, when she's 30, she'll be giving you a hard

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time about something and then being your best friend about something.

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It doesn't, it's not going to stop for us.

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I don't think.

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Well, it doesn't end.

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No, but there is the gift of it all Bronnie as always.

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Oh, it's just so amazing to catch up with you.

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Thank you.

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I, um, I'm so inspired.

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Doesn't feel like the right word.

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Reminded I think is a better word.

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I am so reminded of things when I listen to you.

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Of what the lessons are and it's this sense of oh yeah, that's right.

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That's what this is about.

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And I'm sure all the listeners will feel the same hearing you today.

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Thank you so much.

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Uh, thank you, Amy.

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It's it's all always a pleasure.

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I might just add one last thing that's really helped me through

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this COVID time is there's.

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There's a song.

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That's written by Lucas Nelson, but, um, uh, beautiful Aussie Mum and songstress

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Melanie Horsnell has also covered it.

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And it's called turn off the news and build a garden.

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Well, I think it's just called turn off the news, but, um, it also

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says build a garden and it's, it's about being present with your kids

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and not getting so caught up in.

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In all the news and I've just found, um, that song has become a bit of a

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mantra for me and made me take the news app off my phone and things like that.

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Um, and only check the news when I'm online a couple of times a day.

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I just feel like it's a song, even though it was written by, I guess he's a dad.

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Cause he mentioned the children, Melanie Horsnells version of it, you know,

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she's a Mum and, um, lives down, I think on the south coast of New South

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Wales and she's um, she just does a very, his version is beautiful too.

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There's a rock version and an acoustic version, but she does a

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beautiful acoustic version of it.

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And I, I feel like it could almost become a mantra for us conscious mamas

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while we're, getting through this time.

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It has certainly helped me that, that song.

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Yeah.

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Oh, I love that.

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Thank you.

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I love having practical things.

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You know, we can all jump off our podcast app at the moment now and

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try and find that song and use that as a chance to really be present.

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Thank you so much.

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I'm going to Google it right now.

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My pleasure.

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Thank you, Amy.

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Thanks Ronnie.

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Bronnie has a way of soothing my soul.

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Whenever I speak to her, I hope you felt the same.

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She has such a divine understanding.

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After being through so much.

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And I think that work she did with the dying for so many years as a

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palliative care nurse has really continued to remind her and therefore,

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all of us, what life is really about.

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It's about this moment, this moment in this moment I'm okay.

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You can find all of Bonnie's work as well as the song that she referred to

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at the end of the interview, in the show notes, please share this interview, this

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podcast, with all of the people in your life right now, who might need a reminder.

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Remember we really are.

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Okay.

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We will be okay to surrender and remember in this moment, I'm okay.

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Thank you for being a part of this conversation, mama, we changed the

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way mothers are valued and seen in our society and our world by bringing

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these conversations to light and spreading the whispers of matresence.

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And so I ask you to be a part of this movement now.

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Speak to others around you about matresence.

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About your experience of motherhood.

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Let's bring it to light together.

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To find out more about my matresence.

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Go to amytaylorkabbaz.com forward slashmatresence.

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And receive your free ebook the matresence map.

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So you can understand it even deeper.

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Thank you for being a part of this.

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Until next week.

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