Artwork for podcast Unleashing YOUR Great Work
A Three-Word Rebellion to Fuel Your Great Work with Dr. Michelle Mazur | UYGW09
Episode 98th March 2022 • Unleashing YOUR Great Work • Dr. Amanda Crowell
00:00:00 00:39:35

Share Episode

Shownotes

All social movements start by moving away from something. But while the 3-Word Rebellion begins with what you are against, it quickly becomes about what you want to create!

Created by my guest, Dr. Michelle Mazur, the 3-Word Rebellion helps business owners to create a positive 3-word message that grows their business into a movement.

Once you have your 3-word rebellion, what do you do with it?

Join us as we discuss

  • What it feels like to walk away from a well-defined path to build something of your own
  • How a 3rd grade student council election changed the course of history
  • How imposter syndrome can loom large when you are getting started and how to keep going
  • The importance of citing your sources and letting go of getting credit

MEET MICHELLE:

Michelle Mazur works with brilliant business owners who are shaking things up...but having trouble talking about it. She combines the tools of successful social movements with the qualitative research skills she earned in her communications PhD to help them craft their powerful, captivating message. The author of 3 books (including the newly-released 3 Word Rebellion) and featured in Fast Company, Entrepreneur and Inc., she knows that speaking about what you do in a clear and captivating way is the key to reaching the people you could help the most.

CONNECT WITH MICHELLE:

drmichellemazur.com/me

www.3wordrebellion.com

www.3WRbook.com

For more information about the Unleashing YOUR Great Work podcast or to learn more about Dr. Amanda Crowell, check out my website: amandacrowell.com

Transcripts

Unknown:

Welcome to unleashing your great work, a podcast about

Unknown:

doing the work that matters the most to you. I'm your host, Dr.

Unknown:

Amanda Kroll, a cognitive psychologist, speaker, coach,

Unknown:

and the creator of the aligned time journals. Every week on

Unknown:

this podcast, we are asking the big questions. What is great

Unknown:

work? And why does it matter so much to us? What does it take to

Unknown:

do more of your great work without sacrificing everything

Unknown:

else? And how does the world change when more people are

Unknown:

doing more of the work that matters the most to them?

Unknown:

Whether you're great work is building your own small

Unknown:

business, or managing a remote team at a multinational company.

Unknown:

You'll find insight and answers here. Welcome, everybody to

Unknown:

unleashing your great work. I am your host, Dr. Amanda Kroll and

Unknown:

today I could not be happier to be joined by Dr. Michelle maser.

Unknown:

She works with brilliant business owners who are shaking

Unknown:

things up but having trouble talking about it. She's the

Unknown:

author of three books, including a newly released version of her

Unknown:

three word rebellion, which I've read, and it's very good. And

Unknown:

she knows that speaking about what you do in a clear and

Unknown:

captivating way is the key to reaching the people that you

Unknown:

could help the most. Welcome to the podcast. Michelle.

Unknown:

Thank you, Amanda. I am thrilled to be here.

Unknown:

Yay. We're equally thrilled. Yeah. So I have a question for

Unknown:

you. It's the question I start every podcast with and that

Unknown:

question is, tell us a little bit about your great work.

Unknown:

My great work is all around communication and messaging, I

Unknown:

created a framework called the three word rebellion. And what

Unknown:

the purpose of that is to encapsulate the change that you

Unknown:

want your business to create in just three words. So think about

Unknown:

start with why the five second rule, the four hour workweek,

Unknown:

these are all phrases that we've heard before, they are phrases

Unknown:

that have made us curious to want to know more. And I created

Unknown:

a process that I can guide people through or they can read

Unknown:

a book and figure out what their own three word rebellion is that

Unknown:

message they want to be known for. And I've, I mean, I've been

Unknown:

passionate about communication since I was about 15 years old,

Unknown:

I think I started down this path. But I really believe that

Unknown:

if we can powerfully communicate the value our business creates,

Unknown:

other people will get it, they'll get on board with us,

Unknown:

they'll become the messengers of our message. And ultimately, our

Unknown:

business can be a bit of a movement maker, and out there

Unknown:

doing good in the world and reaching the people we most need

Unknown:

to reach with our message. So my great work is all around the

Unknown:

three word rebellion and communication. It is what I love

Unknown:

and what I'm most passionate about in the world. Love it.

Unknown:

So your three word rebellion is three word rebellion.

Unknown:

Yes, I'm super moto like that.

Unknown:

Yeah. So there's a really interesting word in that, which

Unknown:

I'd love for you to talk a little bit more about, like,

Unknown:

what is it about a rebellion? Because I've seen you I think

Unknown:

your podcast is called the rebel podcast.

Unknown:

Rebel uprising. Yeah.

Unknown:

Rebel. Rebel uprising. Yeah. So there's something about

Unknown:

rebellion that seems to speak to you. What is that? Yeah,

Unknown:

it's really this idea of taking a stand for something. There's

Unknown:

so much like, Oh, me too, marketing, where everything

Unknown:

sounds the same. That all of a sudden, when there is a fresh

Unknown:

voice on the scene, you're like, oh, this person is interesting.

Unknown:

They're saying something different. And I never really

Unknown:

felt like I fit in, in the like, on line, business space, much

Unknown:

like I didn't fit in, in high school. Like I was the theater

Unknown:

kid, the Speech and Debate kid. And in the online business

Unknown:

world, I feel like there are these like popular people who

Unknown:

are really, really well known. And then there's the rest of us

Unknown:

kind of quietly doing our great work in the world and not

Unknown:

getting attention. So for me, when you kind of stage a

Unknown:

rebellion, you're saying like, Hey, I see things and I don't

Unknown:

like them. I think we could do things better. We could do

Unknown:

things differently. We could be doing more good in the world.

Unknown:

And so staging that kind of rebellion is, you know, a

Unknown:

necessary step for people who don't feel They fit in to gather

Unknown:

their right people around them. And I know even for me, like

Unknown:

when I first started this business, I started as a public

Unknown:

speaking coach before I was going into brand messaging and

Unknown:

positioning and all of that. And my first client came because I

Unknown:

wrote this really, really ranty blog post about how not to be a

Unknown:

motivational speaker. And it was in response to this woman that I

Unknown:

saw who like, took the stage. And she asked us all to stand

Unknown:

up. And we did, she asked us to clap. And we did. And then she

Unknown:

said, You have given me a standing ovation. And now I must

Unknown:

earn it. Yeah. And boy, she did not earn it. And that bond, this

Unknown:

ranty blog post about how to do better with speaking. And it was

Unknown:

the type of posts that you're scared to share. Because it's

Unknown:

like, oh, this is super edgy. But people ended up responding

Unknown:

to it. And then I got this email with the blog post in the title.

Unknown:

And I was like, crap. I'm in for it. And I opened it up, and he's

Unknown:

like, Hey, I love this. I'm looking for a new public

Unknown:

speaking coach, I have a big event coming up. Would you like

Unknown:

to talk about it? And I didn't have a business or anything

Unknown:

then. But yeah, like, no, no packages, no fees, nothing.

Unknown:

You're not even you're like, Yes, I can.

Unknown:

I was like, yes, yes, let's talk about it. And he ended up, he

Unknown:

was speaking in front of Barbara Bush's Points of Light

Unknown:

Foundation in front of the firmer former First Lady and all

Unknown:

of these famous people. And we work together on that speech,

Unknown:

and it was fantastic. So that's that rant, that rebellion really

Unknown:

started my business.

Unknown:

Mm hmm. So I'm, I'm noticing that and I'm just noticing that

Unknown:

it's a sort of a positioning against something. Is that

Unknown:

purposeful? Or can your rebellion be for something? Or

Unknown:

is it really a strong stance that you need to be against

Unknown:

something

Unknown:

you need? Both? So I have based this messaging theory, or this

Unknown:

messaging framework out of social movement theory, so all

Unknown:

social movements are moving away from something and when I work

Unknown:

with people, we we name their villain, so my villain now is

Unknown:

manipulative marketing, very much against all the bro

Unknown:

marketing, the scarcity. Yeah, all of like the swipe files that

Unknown:

we see that are loaded with NLP and other stuff that people

Unknown:

don't quite understand. And so that's what I'm against. But I'm

Unknown:

for the three word rebellion, creating this message that

Unknown:

matters. And that encapsulates the change you want to create.

Unknown:

So the three word rebellion itself typically ends up being a

Unknown:

positive message for people. Like, for example, one of my

Unknown:

clients, hers is profit without worry. And she creates marketing

Unknown:

funnels for people. And, like, funnel is such a terrible world

Unknown:

word that people don't like. But her funnels were so radically

Unknown:

different that calling it that was a disservice. So we came up

Unknown:

with this idea of like, okay, profit without worry. And her

Unknown:

clients, right, clients were like, Ooh, yeah, I want I want

Unknown:

that. How do I like how do I do that? Yeah. And that's really

Unknown:

the power of that three word rebellion. So you have the,

Unknown:

you're against something, you have a villain, you have a foil,

Unknown:

but also you're for something and creating a change in the

Unknown:

world.

Unknown:

So once you have your three word, rebellion, what do you do

Unknown:

with it?

Unknown:

So once you have your three word rebellion, you get to create

Unknown:

more messaging. Because it's like those three words are there

Unknown:

to create intrigue, to create curiosity to grab people's

Unknown:

attention and make them think like, okay, she's doing

Unknown:

something a little bit different in the world. But what happens

Unknown:

next, is that, great, you've got their attention. Now, how do you

Unknown:

get their buy in? Well, you need more messaging that really

Unknown:

builds a persuasive argument for your work, and reaches people

Unknown:

along the customer awareness spectrum. Right. So this is

Unknown:

Eugene Schwartz breakthrough advertising. He talks about

Unknown:

like, the unaware audience, the people who don't know you yet,

Unknown:

how are we reaching them? What conversations are we having? And

Unknown:

then how do we get them to have like a belief shift or realize

Unknown:

what the problem is they're having? What are those

Unknown:

conversations that structure this argument and move people

Unknown:

along to being bought into what you're doing and being ready to

Unknown:

work with you? We're not selling we're not convincing. We're

Unknown:

helping people get ready to work with you. And then once we have

Unknown:

that structure, You're down, which ends up being like a

Unknown:

pretty large piece of messaging that you just use throughout

Unknown:

your marketing and your copy, then we can fill in like the

Unknown:

stories, you want to be telling your stories, your clients

Unknown:

stories, and how that all relates to your work. So once

Unknown:

you have all of that, then it's like, okay, you have this

Unknown:

comprehensive messaging strategy that you can use in your

Unknown:

marketing and your copy into your sales. And then it's really

Unknown:

about applying it to your marketing strategy, because I

Unknown:

really believe that any marketing strategy can work if

Unknown:

your message is dialed in, it actually resonates with your

Unknown:

audience.

Unknown:

Interesting. So Michelle, who are you that you would be doing

Unknown:

this work? Like who like, tell us how you got here?

Unknown:

Yeah, so I have a PhD in communication I was in academia

Unknown:

for ever was an assistant professor at the University of

Unknown:

Hawaii teaching persuasion in our University of

Unknown:

Hawaii. Yeah. Was it awesome? or No?

Unknown:

It was not my side. I mean, Hawaii is a beautiful place.

Unknown:

Yeah, it's gorgeous. It's very hard to live there. Because I

Unknown:

mean, you are in the most, you're on the most isolated

Unknown:

island chain in the entire world. Right? Yeah, five hours

Unknown:

to get to California, seven hours to get to Japan. So there

Unknown:

is, yeah, so you're on your own. And the community tends to be

Unknown:

very insular, like, it's hard to break in, it's hard to meet

Unknown:

friends, because they see that how lay, which means white

Unknown:

person in Hawaiian, okay. Like, they'll just leave in a few

Unknown:

months. So it's not worth to get invested. So it was this very,

Unknown:

like, isolating time, and I was single at the time as well. And

Unknown:

it just, when I was at the point where I had to go up for tenure,

Unknown:

it was this decision of like, go up for tenure and commit to

Unknown:

living here. Or leave and try to find build a fulfilling life

Unknown:

somewhere else. And so I chose to leave.

Unknown:

Yeah. And was it just Hawaii? Or was it something about academia?

Unknown:

And it didn't really suit you, too?

Unknown:

Oh, yeah, academia was I love teaching. I love doing research.

Unknown:

I do not love the politics, like I am not a very, I mean, I can

Unknown:

be political, however, like, you can always read exactly what I'm

Unknown:

thinking and what I'm feeling on my face. So like having that

Unknown:

poker face that you would need to go through faculty meetings

Unknown:

was not my jam.

Unknown:

Yeah, I can, I can see that. And yet, you mentioned that you do

Unknown:

like politics. So that's something that you mentioned in

Unknown:

your book, actually, is that you sort of started out as somewhat

Unknown:

political, but your political dreams were crushed in the third

Unknown:

grade. Third grade, that totally changed the course of your life.

Unknown:

Yeah. So I was like, I don't know. Like, I was like four or

Unknown:

five years old and already into politics like Jimmy Carter,

Unknown:

Ronald Reagan, like I knew that this presidential election was

Unknown:

happening. I knew I was a Democrat, like, I don't know.

Unknown:

How do you know you're a Democrat, but apparently I was

Unknown:

and I am. And I just really thought that, oh, politicians

Unknown:

are here to help people. And that was so inspiring to my five

Unknown:

year old mind. So I thought, Okay, this is my life path. This

Unknown:

is what I'm going to do. And then I ran for student council

Unknown:

and I realized that a it was really hard and be hard to talk

Unknown:

to people, which has a little bit introverted and shy at that

Unknown:

point in my life. And I did not when I got crushed

Unknown:

Oh, so brutal. Counsel,

Unknown:

I know so that dashed my dreams and politics.

Unknown:

And yet you persevered and you got a PhD in communications

Unknown:

became a professor. And then the politics again cast your dreams

Unknown:

or changed them, I guess. Yeah. So what what? Tell us about that

Unknown:

moment when you're like sitting in Hawaii feeling isolated and

Unknown:

out of place, and yet, I mean, listen, I have a PhD in

Unknown:

cognitive psychology and I was 100% on the researcher track

Unknown:

period, full stop. No, no train to burn up no sleep till

Unknown:

Brooklyn. I was on my way. And then I remember the day that I

Unknown:

was like, what if I don't do that? But I have to do that. But

Unknown:

what if I don't do that? That little voice right that's

Unknown:

whispering in the back of your mind. What if you don't do that

Unknown:

Amanda? What if that's not what's right for you? And

Unknown:

thinking like That was a very hard moment. Maybe it wasn't for

Unknown:

you. But it was for me like, What was that moment like for

Unknown:

you? Well, it

Unknown:

was interesting because I had several moments going on, like

Unknown:

my mom had passed away. Four or five months prior to this

Unknown:

decision, I had a boyfriend in England and I had just when my

Unknown:

mom passed away, I was actually living in England and teaching

Unknown:

there, which was an amazing experience to live in London.

Unknown:

And so I had broken up with my boyfriend in London, and was

Unknown:

like, No, I'm done with this, like, I'm just done. And it was,

Unknown:

it was like this point in time of my life. I'm like, Just gonna

Unknown:

burn it all down. Like, I am not happy doing this. There are

Unknown:

parts that I like, uh, but it's not enough to keep me here.

Unknown:

Like, I have nothing for me here. And especially, you know,

Unknown:

after losing my mom losing a boyfriend, it was just like,

Unknown:

well, what's one more loss? we'll just, we'll just move

Unknown:

through all of this grief together at once. And it just

Unknown:

made a lot of sense that I was going to leave and do something

Unknown:

different.

Unknown:

And where did you go and what did you do? So

Unknown:

I am in Seattle, that's where I moved to. And at first, I still

Unknown:

was doing some adjunct teaching at the University of Washington.

Unknown:

And I also took a research job at Harborview Medical Center in

Unknown:

the psychiatry department, which was

Unknown:

Wow, psychiatrists.

Unknown:

Yeah, yeah, they're an odd group.

Unknown:

It was it was a very interesting job. I wasn't working with

Unknown:

patients, I was really just doing some like data analysis

Unknown:

for them. And then I moved into market research of the Ford

Unknown:

consumer product goods. companies like General Mills,

Unknown:

Kerrygold. Butter, I, then I was doing some then after that I was

Unknown:

doing work with like Microsoft. So I've Yeah, so it was really

Unknown:

into market research and doing all of that because I was like,

Unknown:

Well, I'm a researcher. So my skills translate, except I'm

Unknown:

also psychologically unemployable. I'm a terrible

Unknown:

employee.

Unknown:

Wait, I'm sorry. Psychologically unemployable. Tell us more about

Unknown:

that. What does that mean? Yeah,

Unknown:

it means I really don't like people telling me what to do.

Unknown:

And the word

Unknown:

Siri? Thank you, Siri. But I want Michelle to answer that

Unknown:

question. Is Beautiful. So funny.

Unknown:

Yeah, I'm not great at taking orders. I always had a lot of

Unknown:

questions. So people be like, Well, I think we, you know,

Unknown:

like, Michelle, you need to do this. And I'm like, But why and

Unknown:

why are we doing it that way? And what if we did it this way.

Unknown:

And so I was always this questioner at work, which made

Unknown:

me a huge pain in the butt, I'm sure to rebel. Yeah. And so at

Unknown:

the same time, I was doing the job, I was blogging on the side,

Unknown:

just kind of because I had all of this information about

Unknown:

communication in my head, and I really wasn't doing anything

Unknown:

with it. And a friend of mine was just like, you should blog,

Unknown:

you should do something, get all the goodness out of your brain

Unknown:

into the world. So that's what I did. And then eventually, I was

Unknown:

at a job and my boss who I loved, he was a great boss. He's

Unknown:

like, I'm being promoted. And he's telling me all about this

Unknown:

excitedly and like my future at the company. And like, in my

Unknown:

head, I'm like, spinning out because I'm like, I don't want

Unknown:

to stay here. I don't want I mean, I was planning on quitting

Unknown:

in the next six months. I was not planning on telling my

Unknown:

employer that soon, but he's honey here. So it was like he

Unknown:

was excitedly talking about all this great stuff. And then he's

Unknown:

like, so what do you think?

Unknown:

I think I'm gonna quit. Oh, wow. Yeah,

Unknown:

I'm just like, not today.

Unknown:

Wow, what an internal compass you have. Mm hmm. It's like,

Unknown:

it's like a dictator in there. It's like, No, you will ask this

Unknown:

question. You will quit this job. So tell me like,

Unknown:

I just I just couldn't lie to him, right?

Unknown:

Yeah.

Unknown:

Yeah, but just, it just didn't seem right. To like, pretend

Unknown:

that oh, yeah, that sounds great. And I'm totally gonna

Unknown:

stay when I'm like, No, I want the hell out.

Unknown:

Yeah. Right. So you have a very strong regulator in your

Unknown:

psychology. And, and a really strong sense of

Unknown:

conscientiousness, it seems like that seems to be something that

Unknown:

runs through both like your lived experiences as you're

Unknown:

telling them to us here. As well as through your model of your

Unknown:

three word rebellion writes like a lot about who are you really

Unknown:

what do you really think stop with all the nonsense and trying

Unknown:

to like force or fake or trick people in to working with you,

Unknown:

and instead just say who you are, sound,

Unknown:

yeah, who you are what you believe, get in touch with how

Unknown:

they're feeling empathize with people like all of this, like

Unknown:

I've always been really aware. And I think because of training

Unknown:

and communication of how my words impact other people. And a

Unknown:

lot of what we see in business is the people completely unaware

Unknown:

of what they're saying what they're promising, and how that

Unknown:

impacts other people how it's received. And I am always very

Unknown:

tuned in to that. And I think I mean, I think that's what makes

Unknown:

me really great. And messaging and communication. Because when

Unknown:

I work with a client, I'm always filtering it through this lens

Unknown:

of like, how would this person feel if they hear this? Is it

Unknown:

going to be like, Oh, push them away? Or is it going to make

Unknown:

them come in closer? And I always want to make the right

Unknown:

people come in closer?

Unknown:

Yeah. Well, it's interesting, because I think you're right,

Unknown:

that the vast majority of people are totally unaware of the

Unknown:

impact that they're having on other people and the role that

Unknown:

they're, you know, the things that we remember that we carry

Unknown:

forward in our lives that we help to define ourselves are

Unknown:

often just one off comments from other people. And that person

Unknown:

had no reason any reality or any sense that what they were saying

Unknown:

was gonna carry that person forward for years, or haunt them

Unknown:

for years. Yes. And I think what in the interesting thing is that

Unknown:

you've got like that juxtaposition. On the one hand,

Unknown:

there's all these people sort of blindly unaware of the way words

Unknown:

impact them and the way their words are impacting others. And

Unknown:

then what you pointed to the people who are acutely aware of

Unknown:

exactly which words to say, to get people starting to feel like

Unknown:

their scarcity and urgency, and I'm going to FOMO, I'm going to

Unknown:

miss out on this. And it's, it's gotta be hard to be the one

Unknown:

saying, walk away. First of all, it's actually not that easy to

Unknown:

manipulate people into doing what you persuasively want them

Unknown:

to that's why like, 1% of people are successful at moving big

Unknown:

numbers through sales funnels, and really making millions of

Unknown:

dollars. And everybody else spends three to $5,000 trying to

Unknown:

do it exactly that way. And then they fail. Right? But

Unknown:

nonetheless, your voice it really isn't rebellion, right

Unknown:

like that. You should just stop try to opt out of that game. So

Unknown:

tell me what struggles have you had sort of bringing this

Unknown:

message to the world this this great work of yours? Oh, so

Unknown:

many struggle. I mean, it was interesting. So when I first

Unknown:

came up with the three word rebellion, it was through a

Unknown:

conversation with a book coach named Jenny Nash. And she was

Unknown:

like, Oh, you're really onto something with this. You can

Unknown:

call it something like the three words speech and I'm like, Cool.

Unknown:

I don't want to do public speaking coaching anymore. Like,

Unknown:

I like the three words. And then my brand was already

Unknown:

communication rebels. I was like, Okay, it's the three word

Unknown:

rebellion.

Unknown:

And then it felt so bad. Like, it's like, oh,

Unknown:

this is a message that it's choosing me like and who am I to

Unknown:

deliver this? And we, I totally had this imaginary Nemesis with

Unknown:

Donald Miller, the building the story brand guy happening,

Unknown:

because Okay, is the guy that is kind of known for messaging.

Unknown:

Like, if you go into a Facebook group, and you ask, like, I need

Unknown:

help with messaging, someone I can guarantee will recommend his

Unknown:

book because it is everywhere. And so he became this like,

Unknown:

imaginary nemesis in my head, like, who am I to think that I'm

Unknown:

an expert that I am the best in the world at doing this kind of

Unknown:

messaging when Donald Miller exists. And, look, he has this

Unknown:

New York Times best selling book, and oh, and, and everybody

Unknown:

recommends him and he's on all of these podcasts and blah,

Unknown:

blah, blah, blah, blah. And it really held me back from putting

Unknown:

my work out there. Like to a point where, like, I had

Unknown:

multiple coaching sessions with my coach talking about this man

Unknown:

who doesn't even know me. Yeah. Yeah. He doesn't know me, but in

Unknown:

my head, it's like, I couldn't do the work that I meant to do

Unknown:

because he exists and he has this book, and what I mean,

Unknown:

looking back, I'm like, Okay, this was so ridiculous, because

Unknown:

he and I are so different. We served kind of different

Unknown:

clientele, even though he's just recommended to everyone like I'm

Unknown:

always serving like the rebels, the misfits, the people who are

Unknown:

like swimming in the blue ocean with their new idea, or they're

Unknown:

doing something in the intangible results realm, and

Unknown:

the story brand never was designed for them either. was

Unknown:

never designed For My People, and it took me a while to kind

Unknown:

of untangle that.

Unknown:

How did you untangle it? What did you need to realize? What

Unknown:

did you need to step into?

Unknown:

Oh my gosh, yeah, so multiple coaching sessions and really

Unknown:

monitoring what my thoughts were around him. Like, oh, because

Unknown:

the thought was, oh, yes, the New York Times best selling

Unknown:

books. So he's better at this than me. And my coach at one

Unknown:

point was like, is that true? Is that like, is that like a true

Unknown:

thought that he's better than you? Because he has this New

Unknown:

York Times bestselling book? Or has he just had a different

Unknown:

opportunity than you? And I'm like, oh, and honestly, like I

Unknown:

wrote a lot in my journal like, and sometimes it's just

Unknown:

repeating, like, I am the best in the world at creating three

Unknown:

word rebellions. Like and then, you know, like when you start

Unknown:

just kind of practicing a new thought, you start seeing proof

Unknown:

of it in the world. So all of a sudden, you're somebody shares

Unknown:

about the book and how finding their three word rebellion and

Unknown:

what that meant for their business. And I'm like, Oh,

Unknown:

interesting. I get feedback from a client. And they're like, I

Unknown:

just had the sales conversation. And it was incredible. I use my

Unknown:

three word rebellion. And they were super curious. And they

Unknown:

ended up signing up. So it's like, a way I'm seeing like all

Unknown:

this proof that I would have shut out before because I didn't

Unknown:

have the New York Times bestselling book. And it's, I

Unknown:

mean, it's funny, because I mean, it's a couple years

Unknown:

removed, but it feels so it feels so silly now, but I know,

Unknown:

I'm not the only one. Not at all who compares themselves. Someone

Unknown:

else in their industry?

Unknown:

Right? Well, and I actually don't know the story brand guy,

Unknown:

because I'm not in messaging. But it is. I'm assuming that

Unknown:

some of it is not really that you're comparing sometimes

Unknown:

people say don't compare your middle to someone else's end.

Unknown:

Yeah. And that there's a way that that could be interpreted

Unknown:

as somebody who's like, so expert, and so capable, but I

Unknown:

don't mean it that way. I mean, like, we have this way, we are

Unknown:

comparing, like, I'm writing a book, but my book is written

Unknown:

Thank the Lord. But you know, as I was writing the book, and I'm

Unknown:

reading my drafts, and I'm like, This is the worst thing I've

Unknown:

ever read. Right? Like, yeah, that you've written a book,

Unknown:

you've written a few. So you're like, This is the worst. This is

Unknown:

not bad. This is the worst. It's really a roller coaster. Maybe

Unknown:

yours wasn't like that. But like that for me. But it's

Unknown:

interesting, like his book was out there. He had not really

Unknown:

like, it's not that he was so much more capable. But he was

Unknown:

more just like, all the collateral, all the

Unknown:

testimonials, all the word of man, like, had just built up and

Unknown:

accumulated for him hadn't accumulated for you yet.

Unknown:

Exactly. Exactly. And you know, he was first to market with a

Unknown:

messaging book. And I think that's always a big advantage.

Unknown:

And it Yeah, and it's like, oh, yeah, he's been at this a lot

Unknown:

longer than I have with his story brand framework. He'd

Unknown:

been, you know, doing workshops and groups and all that kind of

Unknown:

stuff for years before I came along and came up with my

Unknown:

framework. So yeah, you do you accumulate a lot, especially

Unknown:

when you're first. And you've, like, I love that idea. Like,

Unknown:

you've accumulated all of this momentum and this capital around

Unknown:

this message around this framework. And so when you have

Unknown:

a little upstart coming in, like you can't, you can't compete

Unknown:

against that. But then that person for me just kind of looms

Unknown:

larger than life.

Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. And it's, I wonder, like, you sort of overcame that

Unknown:

you put your stuff out in the world, and you had the courage

Unknown:

to let it accumulate some and started to convince yourself,

Unknown:

and then you find yourself, maybe you maybe you have an

Unknown:

experiences, but I bet you have that. Now you're at your New

Unknown:

Edge. And now there's something new that you're going to feel

Unknown:

like an imposter about that you're going to be looking at

Unknown:

everybody who's further along with more accumulation than you.

Unknown:

What other things have you sort of, you know, come up against

Unknown:

that are like that, like new edges that sort of put you back

Unknown:

in that place?

Unknown:

Yeah, that's such a good, good question, as well. And so what

Unknown:

it's making me think of is my friend Maggie Patterson, and I

Unknown:

have a podcast called duped the dark side of online business

Unknown:

where we sit. It's really a consumer advocacy podcast where

Unknown:

we kind of break down what we see in them online marketing

Unknown:

plays from like, how things are priced to manipulative marketing

Unknown:

to messaging tropes, like courses, like all of it and talk

Unknown:

about like, how do you figure out if these things are actually

Unknown:

right for you? How do you make informed decisions, how do you

Unknown:

critically think through these decisions for your business? And

Unknown:

it's so interesting because Maggie and I both have this

Unknown:

experience a lot, where we do a lot of research and a lot of

Unknown:

original analysis for the podcast. And then we see some

Unknown:

other online business owner who just takes our work and shares

Unknown:

it as if they're, it's their own. And you and I are both

Unknown:

academics. So we're like, gonna cite sources man, always sources

Unknown:

like right brained and us. And it's always so hard to see it

Unknown:

because I like read something. And I'm like, Oh, I said that,

Unknown:

like, that's my thing. Yeah. And you're taking credit for it. And

Unknown:

that is it. Like, that can be an incredibly hard edge as well,

Unknown:

that just kind of like ticks you off. And you're like, I mean,

Unknown:

and this is a problem. I feel like universally in online

Unknown:

business. Like we actually did an episode about plagiarism

Unknown:

podcast, because it is so rampant. There's this idea of

Unknown:

just like robbing duplicate in the online world. But if you're

Unknown:

the person being robbed and duplicated, it's really hard to

Unknown:

see your work coming out of somebody else's mouth, and then

Unknown:

people responding to them, like, Oh, you're so smart, saying this

Unknown:

thing. And you're like, No, you're not.

Unknown:

I bet that gets more and more common, the bigger you get.

Unknown:

Yeah, yeah. Well, I, you know, I often talk about like, Simon

Unknown:

Sinek. And start with why, and how I see so many people talking

Unknown:

about start with why without even mentioning him. Yeah, I

Unknown:

mean, and it's cool. Because like, he's moved on from the

Unknown:

thing, right? Like he's doing a bigger, better things like he

Unknown:

has, like in his company, other people speak about it. So he's

Unknown:

totally like, let that message go and take him a life of its

Unknown:

own. And I was like, well, good on you. Oh, but for me, I'm

Unknown:

always like, Oh, this is really hard.

Unknown:

Well, Simon Sinek also has like a massively popular TED talk

Unknown:

called Start With Why so if you do write your Google search,

Unknown:

even a single Google search, you're going to come up with

Unknown:

Simon Sinek. It does happen. I think more pervasively, too.

Unknown:

Like I was just on a I don't know, mastermind or something

Unknown:

with Bob Berg. You know, the guy who wrote the Go Giver? Oh,

Unknown:

yeah, yeah. Yeah. So he was talking about the fact that

Unknown:

nobody ever remembers, like, so you're, you and Bob Berg are

Unknown:

sharing the same like Cliff of difficulty, that no one ever

Unknown:

remembers that it was his book, endless referrals that first

Unknown:

coined the know like, and trust all else being equal. People

Unknown:

work with you if they know like, and trust you. Oh, yeah. He was

Unknown:

just talking about how like, very few people really

Unknown:

acknowledge that that was his work. And yet it's pervasive.

Unknown:

It's everywhere. No hurt.

Unknown:

Oh, yeah. Like, I feel like when I was teaching persuasion, like

Unknown:

Robert Cialdini talked about that in his book and mentioned

Unknown:

Bob Berg, right. I guess. I have that book sitting on my desk. I

Unknown:

can probably go look it up afterwards. Yeah, let's

Unknown:

check the check the back notes and notes of it. Yeah. Yeah.

Unknown:

That's interesting.

Unknown:

Yeah. It's like, the message becomes part of the cultural

Unknown:

zeitgeist, and then people don't cite it anymore, because now it

Unknown:

feels like common knowledge.

Unknown:

Right. Right. Well, common knowledge. Is that right? Yes, I

Unknown:

agree with you that that's probably exactly what's

Unknown:

happening is they don't even know where they heard it. I

Unknown:

mean, think about like, I find this happens a lot, right? Like

Unknown:

after, what, nine and a half years of graduate school, like

Unknown:

between my masters and my PhD, actually is probably six years

Unknown:

but still right in my undergraduate four years. So 10

Unknown:

years, right of formal education in cognitive psychology. I know

Unknown:

things because I feel like I know them. I don't remember

Unknown:

which theory was the first one to really bring that piece up.

Unknown:

I'm sorry.

Unknown:

That's okay. So yeah, I guess it makes sense that people would

Unknown:

struggle with that. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, and yet, it's super

Unknown:

annoying.

Unknown:

It's really hard. And, you know, for us, it's like, the stuff

Unknown:

hasn't been around very long. So it's not like, you know, the,

Unknown:

you know, it was a book written 10 years ago, or we discussed

Unknown:

this. It's a podcast that came out last year, or we're doing

Unknown:

some of this original analysis.

Unknown:

Yeah. Well, originally Natalie a very different thing than a

Unknown:

phrase

Unknown:

too. So. Yeah, that's hard. Yeah, it's so that's kind of

Unknown:

like an edge that I bump up against and not letting like, I

Unknown:

feel like at this point in time, I'm just like, oh, just forget

Unknown:

it. I can't, I can't like, deal with these battles. I have my

Unknown:

own business to run. And if people actually did their

Unknown:

research they would find out who actually said this first, and

Unknown:

those are definitely my people. Right, right. And the interim,

Unknown:

it's like if we want to make change in the industry, then we

Unknown:

need people to be sharing the work. And sometimes you just

Unknown:

have to let go of getting credit for it.

Unknown:

Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's fast wise, that's wise and hard buys

Unknown:

and hard. Two things that commonly go together. Yeah,

Unknown:

yeah. So But dude, is not your only podcast. You have two

Unknown:

podcasts? Yes. Yeah. So

Unknown:

duped is our seasonal podcast that I co host with Maggie. And

Unknown:

then I have the rebel uprising podcast, which really focuses on

Unknown:

how do you cut through the noise and as

Unknown:

to Oh, your microphone? Maybe got something weird is happening

Unknown:

is echoey. Ah, hold on.

Unknown:

What is going on here?

Unknown:

Now you're back. Oh,

Unknown:

okay. So weird. I don't know what happened there. Sorry.

Unknown:

Okay. No,

Unknown:

it's fine. So you were you were saying about your podcast?

Unknown:

Oh, yeah. So the rebel uprising podcast is really dedicated to

Unknown:

cutting through all of the noise and Bs advice to really help you

Unknown:

build a business that stands out and gets noticed. So I talk a

Unknown:

lot about marketing. I talk a lot about persuasion, argument

Unknown:

building messaging, three word rebellion. Like this month,

Unknown:

we're talking. I love to challenge arguments, like

Unknown:

something that is widely accepted, like your business

Unknown:

needs to be on social media. And yes, the question doesn't

Unknown:

really, really need to be on social media to build the

Unknown:

business. Are there other options? And there's other

Unknown:

options?

Unknown:

Nice. Yeah. Well, I am 100% sure that somebody was just like,

Unknown:

Wait, what are the other options? So if somebody was

Unknown:

like, now dying to talk to you about that, or any of the other

Unknown:

things that you've said so far? How could someone find out about

Unknown:

you or spend time with you or learn more about your message?

Unknown:

Yeah,

Unknown:

so you can find out about me at Dr. Michelle maser.com. So

Unknown:

that's where my podcast lives. And the podcast is available

Unknown:

everywhere. You can also find the book, or get a taster of the

Unknown:

book at three word rebellion.com. And right now I

Unknown:

am in the middle or beginning to run a community project. And

Unknown:

it's very much related to what you and I were talking about

Unknown:

kind of that the struggles, the messy middle of success, and

Unknown:

that's called, it should have been me a project exploring the

Unknown:

messy middle of success. And I'm gathering 20 other business

Unknown:

owners to talk about, how do they deal with that comparison,

Unknown:

those, you know, ah, I really wish I would have gotten that

Unknown:

opportunity that my friend got, like, You're so happy for them.

Unknown:

And yet, you're like, oh, it should have been me. So how do

Unknown:

we navigate through those and get our important work out into

Unknown:

the world? And so that goes for the whole month of March? You

Unknown:

can join anytime. And you can do that at Dr. Michelle

Unknown:

naser.com/me. It's short on a little pond. Yep, just okay.

Unknown:

I'll definitely put it in the show notes also, so they don't

Unknown:

even have to remember, they can just click it.

Unknown:

Yeah. And so yeah, it'll be short, little actionable podcast

Unknown:

episodes that come out every day just to like, give you some

Unknown:

insights, inspiration and help you keep going to get your

Unknown:

workout into the world.

Unknown:

Wow. And are you running that inside? Like a Facebook group?

Unknown:

Or are you having a rebellion over on Discord?

Unknown:

And so I'm actually doing it on Instagram. So yeah, my, my, the

Unknown:

person who's helping me organize it. She's like, well, you could

Unknown:

do a Facebook community. And I'm like, I'd rather not. Do not

Unknown:

love Facebook. I

Unknown:

wish this was a video podcast, just so people can see the face

Unknown:

you just made when you were like,

Unknown:

I know. Like, yeah, like I struggle with Instagram, too,

Unknown:

but not as much as Facebook.

Unknown:

Yeah, I can totally see that. Wow. Well, I want to thank you

Unknown:

so much for coming on and sharing all this wisdom,

Unknown:

everything from the your story and your program and your book.

Unknown:

And just the way that you think about things so interesting and

Unknown:

rebellious. I want to thank you so much for being on the

Unknown:

podcast. I'm glad

Unknown:

to be here. Thank you for having me. Yeah. My pleasure.

Unknown:

Thank you for joining me today on the unleashing your great

Unknown:

work podcast. If you liked what you heard, please subscribe and

Unknown:

leave a five star review. And hey, don't forget to check out

Unknown:

the aligned tank journal. You need support to get started.

Unknown:

Stay at it and unleash your great work out into the world.

Links