The best game-breaking exploits in D&D. This week: the false hydra, the most terrifying homebrew monster ever made; and the Kung Fu Kraken, an ancient titan of the deep somehow less effective than a straw dummy.

Read the transcript and get more from the show:

https://scintilla.studio/monster-false-hydra-kung-fu-kraken/

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Join the conversation: www.twitter.com/SparkOtter

Meet my guests:

Jeremy Vine: www.twitter.com/talumin

Jarrod Jahoda, Mid-Level Adventurers: www.twitter.com/midlvladventure

Danilo Vujevic, Thinking Critically: https://www.thinkingcritically.co.uk/

Rebecca Gray and Steven Myers, Eberron: A Chronicle of Echoes: https://www.sivisechoerstation.com/

Music by Jason Shaw at Audionautix.com

wish Lucas had never

shared this with me because now

I can't be surprised with it.

And it's so sad.

I believe in the

poetry of a nat one, just as much as

I believe in the artistry of a Nat 20.

you guys are doing

specific monsters from older.

It's not

specific monsters cheats.

It is different cheeses,

Cheeses!

We're cheesing things I don't

know if that's what you call it.

uh it's going to be what I

call it now, because it's way better.

Because a lot of the ways in

which the game has created its own

lore, its own D&D cryptids started

back in third edition and 3.5.

and Fifth edition stands at the top of

this teetering tower of nonsense that is

50 years old and has given rise to a huge

variety of things that are just in the

game now and have names and wander about

the world of D&D in the same way that

wandering monsters roam around dungeons.

So

peasant rail gun,

something

like the quantum ogre,

I loathe

the arrow of destruction,

the False Hydra,

a wireless troll,

Larry the Kung Fu Kraken.

I hate this one, so, so much.

Welcome to Making a Monster,

the bite-sized podcast where we look

at the monsters in Dungeons and dragons

and other tabletop RPGs and discover

how they work, why they work and

what they mean for these episodes.

I've assembled a crack team of

D and D podcasters from all over

the world to track down monsters,

born of the system itself.

I'm Jeremy Vine, I'm

a professional dungeon master.

My name is Jarrod Jahoda,

and you can find me on any podcast

platform under Mid-level Adventurers.

I'm Danilo, the

host/producer/editor of Thinking

Critically, a D&D discussion podcast

Hello, I'm Rebecca

and I'm Steven.

And we are from A

House Sivis Broadcasting Eberron

A Chronicle of Echoes podcast.

So let's talk cheese!

uh,

This next monster isn't so much

an exploit as, as a homebrew, but

it's on the list because of how

resilient this idea has become.

Near as I can tell, this idea first

appeared, in September of 2014.

And somehow in that seven years, it

has accomplished, I think maybe the

same amount of mythologizing as some of

the things like the peasant rail gun.

this is the false Hydra.

This is one of those instances in

which I w kind of wish I was making

a video podcast, because when I

say that everyone's face changes

and it's never been the same twice.

If you've heard of this, where was

the first time you heard about it?

This is again

lucky for you because this

is a very pertinent in that.

Um, I, someone who I used to DM

for a little, little short campaign

that a while ago, they, recently,

Hey, can I get your advice?

I'm thinking of running this and it

happened to be a false hydra and, and

we're talking like three months ago.

They messaged me this.

I saw the mentioned false hydra and

immediately I thought, oh, cool.

Is that going to be like a

water dwelling snake thing, but

maybe it only has like two heads,

which is why it's a false hydra.

I could not have been more

incredibly wrong in that

interpretation of that definition.

And I think,

looks awful.

It looks so awful.

yeah, Arnold has chosen

a variety of horrifying images

from around the internet.

Some of them, I think are

involved in an old, creepy pasta

about a Zelda game cartridge.

Um,

no, that is a monster

Ocarina of Time.

oh, okay.

You fight it twice, once it

as an adult, once as a kid, I think, but

Yeah.

Yeah, man, I, I played Ocarina of Time

and I don't remember it's in the ballroom.

It's a creature.

You fight in the bottom

of the, well, I'm sorry.

I know that game backwards and forwards.

I've encountered the blog.

Well, actually a separate blog post

before about the idea of a false hydra,

because my interpretation of the false

hydra is that it kind of takes, your

recollection of the hydra itself, that

when you are devoured by this hydra,

your, the memory of you is erased

from reality, that to everyone who

knew you, you just no longer exist.

And so I read it

all and so clearly you were very on

the money because it is still very

much in vogue and people are still

very much trying to incorporate it.

Broadly it is this creature that

calls upon a number of tropes that

we've seen in many popular culture.

I think that The Silence in Doctor

Who being a very obvious correlation

where it fandangles with people's

memory, essentially, Um, perception

of reality so that it is this all

pervasive, clearly not benign creature.

This is not benign force that manipulates

people's memories and perception of

reality so that they never notice it.

They never see it's there, or

the effects that it has on their

world, such as killing people.

They will cease to remember those

people and go on as, as normal as to

secure its safety and, and to growth.

The false hydra always

felt like the silence from Doctor

Who is that was what the premise was.

It's something you look and

you acknowledge is there, and

then you can roll to forget it.

And that is absolutely horrifying

that you could know this thing

is there outside of character and

be able to do nothing with that.

Yeah, it was a

mental mind shenanigan crazy thing.

Like it was like, whoa,

this is blowing your mind.

And I don't know which came first chicken

or the egg, because I just don't know.

Uh, first appearance,

The Impossible Astronaut.

ah, so maybe then it

was inspired by, or maybe they just

came up with the idea separately, but

Yeah.

Sort of case of convergent evolution.

which it's just a great

idea, having this monster that is

really more about the psychological

terror of it than anything else.

It's subconscious fear.

It is that like it's almost horror esque

really as opposed to like a fantasy.

And it just slowly

takes over a town by just

removing people one by one by one.

And it's, is such a horrifying idea.

And it's not often that you get to

see "DM cheese" where they get to

fudge the rules and make things a

little more exciting and fun for them.

And it's disturbing and upsetting.

And I, I can't get enough of it.

I cannot get enough of it.

I just want to play, I mean, I

don't want to play in a game with

it because if I play in a game

with it now, I'll know what's there

and it takes away all the fun.

wish Lucas had never shared this with me

because now I can't be surprised with it.

And it's so sad.

I've heard that this

is one of those things that is

extremely difficult to pull off.

If you had to run a false hydra,

do you think you'd try and do it?

And if so, how would you set this up?

Well, if any of

my players are listening, no, I

would never try to do that ever.

But if I was going to try to

do it, they wouldn't know.

Uh, no, I, I would probably take,

I probably wouldn't do the whole,

like it rose out of the ground

through grubs and whatever.

I would probably be a

little more wacky with it.

Cause I kinda like that still dangerous

and crazy, but a little more wacky.

So I would have, I think, a, a, a town

where people are happy all the time.

There's no like existential dread and

there's always new housing opening up.

Um, so they're always like, Hey, we just

have this new house that just opened up

over here, like you should check that out.

And so they constantly are

getting new people in the

town because it's a paradise.

Nobody ever has any problems,

which automatically in my

book makes it suspicious

Oh, yeah.

there's no problems

because any like bandits or anything

that come along immediately succumb to

the hydra, because the hydra keeps like

a core number of town, people around

to lure in new people at all times.

So I would put it more in like a

opportunistic parasite, as opposed to just

like, oh, I'm going to eat everything.

Um, because like it is doing some

good it's taking out baddies and

protecting these core people,

but everyone else is just food.

Wow.

Yeah.

I love that.

Cause that's, it's not, then it's not

quite cut and dried as a, it's only a

I love moral

ambiguity in my games.

I'm all about it.

I always give my bad guy a good

reason for being a bad guy.

So I've never

encountered this before.

I feel that this is something that

is incredibly difficult to achieve

as a dungeon master, to have that

level of knowledge of like that

level of planning as well of, yes,

these people no longer exist and If

a character is taken by, it's like,

well, how do you, how do you do that?

It's that, complete buy-in of

the world that is very difficult

to achieve in my opinion.

I love the idea around it now.

I'm not sure if this is the blog post

that you sent, the way I encountered

it was a, somebody was saying that they

decided to use the false hydra in a game.

And that they just had the party sitting

around and notice some bloodstains and

there's like, that's weird, but all right.

And eventually they found the

false hydra and they killed them.

And, um, they went back to town and

were given a portrait that had been

painted by, um, like an actual portrait.

And it actually had a character, a

member of the party who they'd never met.

And the idea was that at some point,

this character had gone on watch

and being, and by the hydra and the

fact that the character had never

had a play I'd never existed at all.

They just completely sign it

in that you've lost these party

member that you now never remember.

That's amazing.

that's, that's how

I encountered the false Hydra.

I just thought this is genius.

If you can pull that off, your

players will remember that forever.

Absolutely.

And the certainly the blog

post I've, um, that I've seen

overall is like this horror.

It's designing a horror creature.

Um, that idea that once it

kills you, no one remembers you.

It's like, that's something that just

takes a little bit of a trigger in my mind

has got no, I didn't like that at all.

That's a squeak that, that terrifies me.

Do you think you could pull it off?

Like running a false

hydra for your players?

I guess

the different, okay.

The definition of whether I could pull it

off or not, I would leave to my players.

enough.

um, I would say, I would

like to think so if, only for the fact

of I would overplan and make sure and

spend all way too long on things that

won't get used or won't even get to see

the light of day so that it would just

be in a complete fail, safe system,

ecology, where they do, they'd always be

something exciting to do, but there's the

fact of the matter is basically no one,

including myself, has that freedom has

that length of time available to them to

really make it like maybe I'm completely

a naysayer and pessimistic is clearly

it's, it's popular and people do it.

Well, I think you're right in

that it works a lot better on paper

than it does in practice because

of the people I've asked about this

most have not been confident that,

uh, they would want to make the

attempt or that they could provide a

satisfying experience if they did, or

that it would be worth it in the end,

because there's so much going on here.

It's a loaded question,

"could you do this?"

which is kind of why I ask it.

Yeah, I mean,

I would agree with them.

I hate being like, "with experience"

or "with, with knowledge," but I

can't, I've done this podcast for

however many years and not picked up.

Some peripheral peripheral experience.

So absolutely this and many

other things, I'm sure.

Go seem rad on a first glance to,

to maybe a less experienced DM.

Now but I'm just perhaps more

cognizant of various pitfalls

having fallen in then myself.

So yeah, it's less experienced DM

seeing something like the false hydra

and that's, oh, that'll be really cool.

That'd be really atmospheric.

And I can have the bomb and have

a picture of his family behind

the bar, but he doesn't know

who the woman or the child are.

He just thinks it's a selfie.

And then that the players asked

the question, like what happened

to the woman and the child and

the photo when he goes around the

woman and the child in the photo.

That'd be fun and exciting.

Yeah, sure.

That is.

But then, but then what,

you know, w w how, how do we

really get something out of.

And, and you kind of do that.

As I said, a couple of times before the

players go, everyone here is crazy and

that's, that's it, that's the story.

And we move on how this weird town

full of the people who don't know,

who can't understand what a photo is.

And then everybody gets frustrated,

which is the worst case.

That's like, that's the fail state.

The fail state is everybody

including the DM is just like,

we don't know what's going on.

I don't know how to make other

people know what's going on there.

yeah.

Yeah, because running a mystery in

D&D is very difficult, running a

mystery where the solution to the

mystery is actively erasing the clues.

Uh, Also really difficult.

Yep.

There's miles of depth on this

Yeah.

Yeah, for sure.

For sure.

Um, you, you just you'd need to be.

novelist to, to, to like in a sense,

because it has to be a lot of, it has

to be scripted to a certain extent.

You're, you're almost pushing

that point of more scripted

gameplay rather than freeform.

I like the idea behind it and

it would be really fun to do a one-shot

involving it, but I can't imagine.

Th just the mental logistics

that go into thinking like, wow,

okay, now there's a monster.

You have to fight that you don't know.

Is there, what do you do?

What, what do you even

do in that scenario?

Yeah.

Cause, cause you're asking for

a lot from your players, not

to metagame if you're using it.

Oh no.

I mean metagame at that point in

time please, because the only way

you're going to get out of that

is by thinking outside of the box.

Cause everything's straightforward.

You would have assumed has

been tried time And time again.

You have to have to

come up with something.

I mean, oh God, no, no.

And

I don't,

I don't like it.

I don't have a lot to say on it.

so much of what's happening

in the game is being influenced

by what's happening at the table.

And to that point, there's, there's some

of this cheese that's influenced by what's

happening within the game system itself.

Which leads me to Larry,

the Kung Fu Kraken.

Oh man.

Larry, the Kung Fu Kraken.

I hate this one, so, so much.

Uh,

makes sense, but hate it.

I hate it so much.

yeah.

So this relies on a discussion of

fumble mechanics or, or critical fails.

so with five E I mean,

there's not a lot of credit fail rules.

A lot of that's going to be on the DM.

You critically fail and I

mean, you miss real bad.

There might be a few suggestions in the

DM's Guide, but for the most part nothing

really bad happens if you critically

fail on a hit or a skill check or

anything like that, but with Pathfinder

And 3.5.

In 3.5, there were

very hard rules as to what could

happen when you critically fail.

And so think I'm gonna just

come to the through line here.

I think that it, it goes back to the

adversarial aspects of 3.5 and Pathfinder

in particular because you want to be

able to punish your players occasionally

and you don't really get to do that.

And by having them roll a one, you're

saying, well, now you've messed up

and I get to do something to you.

Yeah.

Monster of the Week calls

it "taking a hard move."

Yeah.

I think that five E has made a good

decision getting away from that.

I think that you can fail and

still have bad things happen.

And I think taking a hard move is

a way that it can be done without

it being as punishing as it was.

even like the cards for Pathfinder,

they have the crit fail cards.

I don't know if those were

official or they were official.

Yeah.

uh,

what's on a crit fail card?

So we had the critical

success cards, which were always

like, oh, you're doing so good.

And then crit fails like, oh, okay.

You you've dropped her weapon

and you've cut off your toe.

And now you're going to have problems

with balance for the rest of the game.

Yeah.

Or you accidentally

kicked up some dust and you're

blinded for the next minute.

Some of them got like bad enough that

it was like you fall on your sword.

Yeah, so,

you are now dying.

And that's kind of

what the critical fail was that

sometimes when you roll the one,

you would have a separate table.

Something bad even was,

has happened to you.

And you'd have to roll on that.

And it might be you just drop your weapon.

It might be that you attack

your ally next to you.

Instead, it might be

that you stab yourself.

It might, there's a whole range

of things that would could occur.

Back in the day.

Like one, you rolled a one.

And so for, for twenties,

you, you had to roll a D 20.

And if you got a 20, you had to roll

a confirm and you had to beat the AC.

Now, if you rolled a second 20,

so two twenties in a row we would

go into like, oh man, you're doing

exceedingly well, try it again.

You get three twenties in a

row, you insta-kill something.

Once I actually

got three twenties in a row,

so I insta-killed something.

Oh my gosh.

was, I don't even know

what the odds were, but it was crazy.

One in like 1600 chance I

had, something like that.

we can live in

that moment if you want.

You can tell me that story.

I mean, it was crazy.

I was playing a ranger and I was

having a hard go at it because

it was this monster creature.

And I didn't ha I think it was a plant

and I didn't have any magical weapons.

And it was like resistant

to all my attacks.

But then I just happened to roll three 20.

I rolled the 20 and he was

like, okay, confirm it.

And I was like, okay.

I, I got the crit and I

was like, just go for it.

And I roll the third 20, couldn't

believe it, and somehow with my non

magical attacks, I killed a thing that

was resistant to non-magical damage

because I wrote three twenties in a row.

The odds were insane.

Somehow I did it.

And after the game he realized that

well, plant creatures are actually

immune to critical hits, but I

was like, don't rob this from me!

This happened!

Man, three and a half was wild.

yeah.

what was even going on back then?

Yeah.

I didn't have a single

character that lasted more

than like five sessions in 3.5.

Wow.

I've had one character last three years.

I am amazed

and awed by your skill.

It has nothing to do with it.

I think it's more five E's fault, this

actually kind of brings me back around.

Cause one of the things that people have

told me about older editions is that there

was a much more adversarial relationship

between the DM and the players.

Like you, like this world is going to kill

you and I'm the guy who's going to do it.

And it's your job to

figure out how to survive.

Yes.

Very much.

So those first, I mean, those

first sessions until that character

died and my three edition game,

it was always like, everything

was trying to kill our characters.

It wasn't about like building

up as heroic adventure journey.

It was about how can I kill you?

Hm.

My 3.5 adventures were

similar, but less so that I think that's

just because the DM was a nicer human.

And certainly in fourth edition when

I started DM-ing and I was really

bad at it, I took that mindset

because that's the only one I knew.

And then I was talking to him and I was

like, I'm not having this fun this way.

I'm just going to make it be

more of like, I'm a neutral party

and you'll have to fight things.

And if you die, you die and I'm

not going to get involved in it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It was but let me circle back to

critical success or critical fails.

What is the thought experiment

of the Kung Fu Kraken?

So it's this idea that a

kraken who is trained in martial arts can

attack essentially 18 times on a term.

Right.

means

We're counting what eight we're

counting eight limbs and then a few extra.

yeah, so like it's

like eight limbs and multi attack.

So that's two attacks per limb.

And I think there's a, I forget

what they were called, but they were

equivalent of bonus action "flurry

of blows" attack kind of deal.

There's a

whole range of things.

It could have tentacles, it could have

massive teeth, it could have pseudopods,

but he gets a lot of attacks is the point.

Yeah, a

lot of attacks in a turn.

And statistically, if you roll a D

20 that many times, there's a certain

number of times that's going to come up

as a one, which is a critical failure.

Your increased likelihood therefore means

that you are weaker at fighting and more

likely to succumb to a failure table

and kill yourself, because that was one

of the options on these failure tables.

Like I have seen failure tables

that are like, you decapitate

yourself, you chop off your arm.

And I'm like, whoa, dude, I don't

know how that's possible, but so

Euro, but that being said, I do

support the idea of crit fails.

Like I like that idea, uh, you

know, in 3.5, like critical

failures were definitely a thing.

And so were critical successes and five

E they've kind of dropped the critical

fail part and just kept the success part.

But I still use critical fail, but I'm

a lot nicer with my critical fails.

And that essentially what

I do is I do it by level.

If you are a levels, one

through five, someone is going

to take one D four damage.

Okay.

Yeah.

So enough to kind of be

annoying, but generally not enough to kill

you unless you're a wizard and enrolled a

two on your Um, and then it increases so

like six through 10 as a D six, a D eight

for 11 through 15 and 16 through twenties,

uh, D 10, but it's just one die of damage.

But what I add to it is

Ah,

a condition effect.

like you could overextend and maybe

you overextend by your opponent's

sword and you get cut for two points

of damage, but then you fall prone

Yeah, bad news.

and like

that ends your turn.

Or, you know, if there's like three

potential people who could suffer,

like if you're an archer and you

roll it out, could fling back on you.

It could hit the fighter next

to the enemy, or it could hit

the road next to the enemy.

So all three of the players rolled a

D 20 and it's a straight luck roll,

whoever gets the lowest, gets the ping.

And then, you know, that can be like,

Hey, watch where you're shooting.

And fun.

So I believe in the poetry of a

nat one, just as much as I believe

in the artistry of a Nat 20,

but I don't want to be a Dick about it.

I just want to be annoying about it.

Um, which has a long round of saying,

I like the idea of these failure

tables, but I think in previous

editions they were too aggressive.

do you critical

fail on skill checks?

um, no,

so not in, not okay.

Let me, let me define that

for, you know, if they wrote a

one, but if they still failed.

Badly which could be on a two or

it could just be the DC was so high

that the chances of failure high

and failing catastrophically as

high, you know, it's gonna happen.

And it's probably never

as hard or as harsh.

There's no punitive, the most punishment

it will get is you're trying to run

leap or dive across a skill check.

For example, a physical activity

you full prone is probably as hard.

You know, you fall on your ass

because it's kind of half role-play

ha look at the buffoon, but also half.

Yes, you're going to have

to spend five for a moment.

If we're not in combat,

that's not really an issue.

So no one really minds.

Um, and then for social encounters,

It's I always tend to run, um, you

know, nothing's binary in my game.

So a critical fail quote, unquote,

isn't going to just immediately turn

anyone to be like, oh, now I want to

punch you in the face because humans

don't really operate like that.

It takes quite a lot for, to get me

to want to punch somebody in the face.

Like we're talking like quite egregious

things here, not just somebody

asking for more money off an item

and then doing it in an awkward way.

Doesn't immediately make me

hate that person in this.

And that's how I try and run my MPCs.

So it, you know, a critical fail

would just be like, do you know what?

Just leave my store please.

Cause you're wasting my time and not

whoops, you throw the coin because

you fell over and you throw it in

the merchants face and now the guards

want you is not to me is not, is

just, doesn't really make sense.

You are

I very much

subscribe to that train of thought.

That's like when people say.

They try and persuade the king, give

me a crown so I can be king and you can

make them roll, uh, because although it's

impossible and you shouldn't really get

players to roll for things are impossible.

The outcome is very variable.

So a 20 plus would be like, ha, you

can be my court justice because what

a funny joke you just said, and I'm

not going to throw you in prison.

Whereas, you know, D you

don't hit DC five, which

typically one tends to not hit.

Uh, then he's like, you've insulted me

and you're going in prison for the night.

Uh, so that, that sliding

scale, which again, is kind of

in independent of a one or not

I never really used them.

I felt that that was something that

would, would take away the five.

Um, and critical hits, same sort of thing.

I tend to use those more because

it's such a powerful hit.

I feel that they balance themselves

pretty well, because if you can do a

critical hit, then the monsters can too.

And that's usually why I didn't do it

because if they can have a critical

failure, the monsters can too.

And I don't want my monsters

attacking each other.

I want them to continue to

attack the, um, the party.

Ah, but that really is kind of boiling

down what the critical fail was that

you had a certain percentage of not

only did you not succeed, but something

even worse has happened to you.

And there's also the, um, the

straw dummy test, which is also

again for the critical hit.

Like if you've got someone just attacking

something that can't fight back, what are

the chances of you rolling so poorly that

you actually injure yourself with, uh, a

creature that's not attacking you at all?

yeah.

So eventually if you are rolling

enough dice, and if those dice can

critically fail you, there's a non-zero

chance and a gradually escalating

chance that a straw dummy itself is

going to cause you grievous bodily

harm through no fault of its own.

I do love these ideas as

myths in game where you might've had

stories about someone who's just so

bad at being a warrior so bad at being

a God that the straw dummy defeated

them because they just went at it and

they just roll that poli that yeah,

the, the dummy has actually caused

multiple wounds to them, um, over there

that little training session, but it

doesn't actually happen to characters.

I feel because these are the thought

experiments of, if we extend the dice

over a certain period, it is theoretically

possible that these things could occur.

In practice, they are

very unlikely to occur.

I mean, again, I do not,

I probability very well.

I'm not a game designer, but I

feel it is a thought experiment.

That's useful when you are looking

at something like a critical failure

table or a critical hit table for,

for that matter, because that is

kind of just the same thing, but

reversed, but it's a lot more danger.

I feel a critical hits tables,

a lot more celebratory.

The people are a lot more

interested in, in seeing a critical

hit than a critical failure.

Thanks for listening

to Making a Monster.

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Special thanks to my collaborators

on these exploit monsters episodes:

I'm Jeremy Vine, I'm

a professional dungeon master.

You can find me on social media on

Twitter at Talumin, T A L U M I N,

or you can listen to my podcasts

Tell Me About Your D&D Character,

which is on SoundCloud or D&D and TV

My name is Jarrod Jahoda,

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platform under Mid-level Adventurers.

I'm one half of the creative team.

Matt is the other half, or you can

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host/producer/editor of Thinking

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the D&D and wider TTRPG framework.

that has been going on now for almost 65

episodes and a year and a bit weekly drops

everything from your esoteric, left-field,

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attribute to D&D all the way to encounters

and experience, and much more obvious

topics, including soft skills, such as

friendship and social and meta things such

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Naval Naval gazing.

One to record.

Hello, I'm Rebecca

and I'm Steven.

And we are from A

House Sivis Broadcasting Eberron

A Chronicle of Echoes podcast.

It's a very different kind of podcast.

We're a little bit scripted, a little

bit improv and a whole lot of fun.

So we hope that you'll stop in

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