Episode Title: Self-Worth, Grief, and the Courage to Create: A Conversation with Deborah Weed

Episode Summary:

What does it truly mean to know your worth? And how does that change when you’re walking through grief?

In this deeply moving episode of the Pregnancy Loss and Motherhood Podcast, host Vallen Webb welcomes guest Deborah Weed, founder of the Self-Worth Initiative and author of Paisley’s Last Quill and The Luckiest Penny. Together, they explore what self-worth really is, how family dynamics shape it, and why many of us confuse self-worth with self-esteem.

Deborah shares her powerful journey of overcoming illness, creative rediscovery, and the inspiration behind her books and upcoming Broadway-style musical. Through stories of resilience, creativity, and personal loss, she offers listeners heartfelt lessons on reclaiming power, finding healing through creativity, and embracing both grief and joy at the same time.

In this episode, you’ll hear about:

• The difference between self-esteem and self-worth (and why it matters)
• How childhood and parental relationships shape the way we see ourselves
• Deborah’s story of illness, loss, and rediscovering her voice through creativity
• Tools for navigating grief in all its forms—whether loss of a loved one, a relationship, or even a dream
• The healing power of creativity, joy, and duality (wailing and wonder at the same time)

This conversation is a reminder that you are inherently valuable, no matter what you’ve been through—and that even in grief, creativity and love can bring you back to yourself.

🌐 Learn more about Deborah’s work: paisleysfashionforest.com,

selfworthinitiative.net,

The Luckiest Penny, By Deborah Weed

Paisley's Last Quill, By Deborah Weed

If Only, By Deborah Weed

Links + Resources:

• 💌 Join our grief + growth newsletter: Here
• 🎙️ Listen to more episodes: On Spotify or other favorite podcast platform!
• 🧡 Visit the Evelyn James Shop: https://evelynjames.shop

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Hey friends, welcome back to the Pregnancy Loss and Motherhood podcast. today we are with a fabulous guest. Her name is Deborah. You've already heard the intro, but I am going to let her introduce herself

⁓ thank you, thank you. So hi, my name is Deborah and I am the founder of the Self Worth Initiative. And first of all, I want to say that if you have had a child that passed or anybody that's passed in your life, I profoundly care and I am holding your hand and you know, kind of metaphorically serving you some hot tea because I know that the courage that you must have is like stellar.

So sweet. Her, your email, ⁓ signature at the bottom says you matter so much to me. And every time I see that, I just, makes me feel loved. It really does. So I love seeing that. That's, that's your energy here. ⁓ so Deborah, of course, has so much to talk to us about today. ⁓ we want to, I really want to start with a self self worth initiative. ⁓ I know for me, I grew up,

Guys, we're gonna...

⁓ in a weird relationship with my mother who it always felt like she was trying to live through me and but at the same time scrutinized everything I did. ⁓ It was like a conditional relationship where I had to perform or produce or do something to make her happy. ⁓ And so I feel like my self-worth got whittled down.

And I kind of just went into people pleasing and just left, know, like put myself aside and just like did what I had to do to earn my mom's love. ⁓ yeah, I just the whole self worth. I know it's a big buzzword currently, like self care, self worth, like all these things. But explain in your words, like what self worth is and like what this initiative is. ⁓

Absolutely,

positively. So most people get self-worth wrong as a matter of fact. They think it's self-esteem. So let's start there. There's a huge difference between self-esteem and self-worth. Self-esteem is I did something great, like I did a musical or I inspired somebody. I did something and so now I have self-esteem and believe in myself. Self-worth on the other hand is your intrinsic value.

it, you're born with it, you're already worth so much. But like you had shared, a lot of times with our mother or our father, we're getting negative feedback. And so how do we establish self-worth from that if we're being told we're incompetent or you need to perform, which goes into the self-esteem realm. And a lot of the times the parents that are that way don't have self-worth.

They are striving for self esteem and they want you to do the same. And it feels like you do, you have to perform to get their love. And then like you so eloquently started out, then you are looking for love in all the wrong places and all the wrong ways.

Yeah, totally. So I mean, what is your experience with self worth? Is this something that you've always had? Or is it something that you had to develop?

I absolutely did not have self-worth. I was a really sweet kid and my mother, I mean, my mother was a real, very loving in the beginning, but when she got into business and singing, the stage was where she felt the love. And for me, you know, the same thing that you said, my mother was tremendously competitive with me my whole life. That was very confusing. So I did not have.

good self-worth at all. In fact, was tremendously sensitive as a child, kind of like I surely temple, and real happy and sweet, just so sweet. So when I was growing up, people would always say, oh, you're too sensitive. Oh, you're too sweet. Oh, you're too this or too that. So to prove myself, what I ended up doing is becoming the Director of Development for Citibank 19 Branches.

and working on a $26 million pavilion with Disney and Universal Consultants for Kia Motors. And what a pavilion is, is like, it's a small world after all. It's like, it's a ride show. It's everything that goes on inside that thing. And I was trying to get away from the sensitive being that I was until I had a health challenge, which really knocked me, knocked me cold. And from that, I had to learn.

what self-worth was. When I did learn what self-worth was, I promised myself for the rest of my life I would get away from corporate because corporate is very logical. It's thinking. It's in the brain, right? But I was born with a big heart. I was off center. It didn't make any sense. So it actually took, you know, a very intense journey to find my way back into self-worth.

and I'm still working on it.

Wow, there's so much there. Yeah, was, so many questions. Okay, the first part. ⁓

See, here I go. This happens in every time we record, guys, you know this. ⁓ The part about not being a logical person. So from what I've seen and what I know with our meetings is you are a creative person. You are the complete opposite. So seeing you and like thinking about you in a corporate role would be so difficult.

because I'm the same way. And anytime I worked for anybody, I just had this need to run away. And I had this like, it just, things didn't click for me. ⁓ my God, where is...

I'm actually tracking you. I'm following you. I understand what you're saying. You're really trying to dive into the whole idea of ⁓ logic and what to do when you have a big heart and why you would run away under those dynamics. Is that kind of where you were going? Okay. ⁓

Alright.

Yeah.

You're wonderful. Yes. And so

the part that I really want to go to is you had, was it like an experience that you had? Like what made you be like, wait, like did you have an internal nudging? Like that was what it was. It was like, hello, Deborah, this isn't where we're supposed to be. This isn't what you're supposed to be doing. ⁓

Or did you always know like you wanted to be like, I know you do the Broadway stuff and you're direct and all this stuff. Tell me how this all fits in. Like how did you know? And like, was it a certain experience or a day or a person? Like it just made you like, wow, like that moment.

Yeah, and it wasn't a moment, was three long years. And what happened is, is that I was at the top of my game, thought that I had everything conquered, really believed my self-esteem was very, very high.

because I was accomplishing a lot and I could go to any party and they'd say, hey, what do you do? And I'm like, hey, I work on a $26 million pavilion held by you. And that was kind of fun for that period of time, but my heart, you know, I wasn't, I was out of alignment and I ended up with a mystery illness that took me down for three years where I was bedridden.

⁓ What happened is that I was in tremendous pain. mean, the pain was off the charts. I felt like I was giving labor every single day and I was very tremendously weak. It was very hard to get out of bed. So I went to doctor to doctor and the first doctor said, well, we think that it's MS. And I'm like, okay, well, what do we do?

because he said that it was probably in my brain stem and they wouldn't figure it out until after I died. And he's like, well, there's really nothing that could be done. So I went to my second doctor and the second doctor said, well, it looks like Lou Gehrig's disease. And with Lou Gehrig's disease, we won't know, you know, for a bunch of years. And I'm like, can you help me? No, we can't. And on to the next doctor. And the next doctor says, it's all in your head. You're making it up. And...

It was very, it took me by surprise because I'm one of those people that really prides myself on honesty. So to have my voice, the thing that, you know, that was really important denied and denied and denied. And what was happening also is because the doctors were not agreeing on things, my whole family kind of abandoned me. They didn't know what to do because if you don't have a, if I can't say,

Yeah.

Now tell us how.

So

I'm lying in bed for a long time with nothing else to do, but I had always done, one thing about me is I had always done productions, always creating plays and things on that order ever since I was 16. And I heard about this penny, a seemingly ordinary penny that could be worth $250,000 at that time.

and is actually worth a million dollars now. And I was like, well, wait a minute. If a penny, something that's virtually worthless can be worth that much, then how much am I worth? And even more important, that penny was made by mistake because during that time period, they would put a steel slot in all of the pennies, you know, to make it ⁓ stronger than just copper.

but there was 15, approximately 15 of them that got through the penny machine, whatever you want to call it, and ⁓ they got into the world. And because they were made by mistake, because they were so rare, that's what created their value. Wow, wait a minute. They were made by mistake? So even if I feel like a mistake, and even if I feel like worthless, then I can be worth that much? Fascinated me.

So down for the count, might as well come up with one of my creative ideas. And so I did. I used creativity as the life force to bring me back. And I started to write a book for children about self-worth and also a musical. And I promised myself, if I ever get out of this, if I ever get out of this, changing direction totally for the rest of my life, I will devote it to inspiring families and adults.

to know what self-worth is in very metaphorical and simple ways. And that's what I did. A doctor finally figured out what was wrong. And after three long years of, you know, trauma beyond belief, ⁓ they discovered that I had a tumor the size of a grapefruit. It was behind my uterus. This was a while ago. And so during that time period, you know how they have ultrasound.

They didn't have the kind that was in you, only on the outside. So they missed it. My iron was between a three and a six. My doctor said you should have been dead long, long time ago. I knew I was hemorrhaging out all the time, but at that time, gynecologist said, it's probably just a heavy menstrual cycle because you're getting into perimenopause. So.

I do want to stop for one second before we continue this conversation and say, ladies, listen to me. If you feel like something is wrong and you really believe it, do not give up on yourself. And if you have to go to a million doctors and do everything that you can, because, you know, I'm so passionate about the idea that we give away our power, our quills.

It's so sweet.

Absolutely. Do you think? Well, no, you want to are you going to continue the story, though? ⁓

Well, there's a lot more to the story because,

you know, for that one, it was called the luckiest penny and the musical was amazing. It was about two pennies. The way that I created about two pennies, one penny named Alastair and Alastair thinks he's absolutely perfect because he's in a plastic case and he's never been touched. So, going to be perfect if you were never touched. But then there's Henry and Henry, my gosh, Henry has been...

on the streets alone, in the garbage can, somebody's lucky penny, in a bank, in a roller coaster of a ride with a washing machine. And both of them are gonna be sold at an auction and they wanna know how much they're worth in one. And Alastair, ⁓ Alastair, he's correct. He knows how much he's worth. And he's the lucky recipient of being able to be in a...

box, a beautiful silver box for the rest of his life, never to be seen again. But Henry ends up with a grandfather who gives it to his child or grandchild and Tommy is like, my gosh, this penny must have been worth a million dollars. And grandpa's like, well, why do you say that Tommy? And he says, because it was born the same year as you.

So I was really looking, I was trying to look for something that would be easy for children, young children to understand how much they're worth. And we created the book, The Luckiest Penny and the musical, The Luckiest Penny, but the top backs were the things that were so rich, where we got to hear from kids of who they thought, which penny was worth more and why.

and really examine their own self-worth and really understand it in a big, gigantic way.

love that so much. And that's the story that you created from a little penny that you learned about while you were in this terrible struggle, health struggle. ⁓ You're amazing. You just made something out of nothing. You made, I love that so much. And the same thing with, so where did, okay, so you have the, what's the name of the penny book? The Lucky, the luckiest penny. And then,

Yes. Yes.

The luckiest penny.

Okay, she also has another book and where does that book stem from? what last

Same kind

of thing. Same thing. You know, one thing, I guess it's kind of my karma in life, but I don't want it anymore. Three times I've had situations health-wise that are beyond the norm. They're just totally different. I think that now in retrospect, I had them so that I would understand people profoundly and go on to do what I'm doing because I'm doing it because I care so very much. I really, really do. And I want to make a difference. But I...

During that time, one of the things that I did is I went to a chiropractor and the chiropractor did one of these like really fast and at C2 I have a dissection which means it kind of bubbles it goes like this. I can't drive to this day because when I turn my neck a certain way I can go unconscious. My doctor at the time had said that it could kill you but I'm still here so and it's too high up it was like in this circle or you know like way up.

high in the vertebral artery. So I wanted to, my husband and I were traveling around the country and I was on trails and I wanted to make sure that thing wasn't going to burst when I'm walking on these trails. So I go to get an MRI and when I get our MRA, sorry, where they look at the blood vessels. And when I went to get it, the nurse practitioner who's supposed to put the gadolinium, which is a heavy metal, it's like mercury. It's a very toxic substance.

was supposed to put it in my vein. She missed my vein and she put it in my arm. My arm swole up like this and I ended up with this toxic, toxic thing that almost took me down again. This has happened three times, but that was the second. So this time, the way that I got out of that one is that I went to an acupuncturist and the acupuncturist is putting the needles in me and doing what he does. And he's like, Deborah, this isn't gonna work.

And I'm thinking, wow, I'm paying him and he's literally telling me that it's not going to work because a lot of people who have gadolinium poisoning, Chuck Norris' wife has it, they don't come back. I mean, they really struggle, struggle like big time. So ⁓ he told me, what I want you to do is I want you to take improv.

Wow.

You gotta be kidding me. I can hardly walk and you're asking me to take improv classes? He said, yes. I think that you need to laugh. I think that's going to bring you back to life. You have all this creativity. We need to spark that. And so I did. My husband would literally take me practically not walking to these improv classes. Now I had produced and written a lot of shows, but I had never been on the other side of it.

and I would laugh and laugh and laugh and I literally laugh my way back to health. So that's what you know I do want to take a second and and kind of like do an explanation point right here and say that creativity your God-given creativity can bring you back because it's a life force and I've had that happen three times in my life.

And a lot of times people don't want to try because they don't want to feel. But I'm here to tell you that no matter what you think your creativity is, it can be your savior like nothing else because it's like inspiration coming from above. So when I was there, I was like, okay, I need another protagonist. Here I am. I keep on giving my power away, losing my voice. What do I do? And so what came to me is a porcupine.

because a porcupine is supposed to put their quills up in the air to protect themselves. But in my imagination, this little porcupine dreamed of being a fashion designer in the animal fashion world. But porcupines in the animal fashion world needed to give away their quills or power to Zavana, a diva, a couture over the top diva, so that you could pin

Yeah.

all of the couture designs. And what I really wanted to concentrate in on is the whole idea of how we give away our power and why we do it, looking for love, acceptance, all the things that we do to warn initially little girls. Because at that time, was, you I started this in 2012. And at that time,

little girls were just starting to be bullied. you know, the viral bullying was going on. It terrified me as a grandmother. It was like, my gosh, this is, got to do something. You know, I have to do something. This is scary as hell. Well, I wasn't a grandmother yet, but it still was scary as heck. So I wrote this book. I illustrated it. It took me a year to illustrate the book. I got it out there. all five stars. It was called, it's called Paisley's Last Quill. Still out there.

⁓ And the mothers were like, my gosh, my daughter's literally sleeping with this book. She loves Paisley, because Paisley is just so sweet. And then they started to tell me, yeah, this is so great, but why is it just little girls? We need the message too. And it was like, ding, ding. Hadn't done anything yet with it for the adults, but. ⁓

I always loved musicals and so kind of like it registered in the back of my mind that maybe one day I would get to.

Yeah, well you said too, your mom was in the theater or acted or...

She had an entertainment company and that's why since I was 16, I was able to do any kind of creative thing and then she was able to manifest it, make it happen.

Thank you.

That's amazing. Did that help your relationship at all or did it further?

No,

no, further because I would do most of the creative and she would take all the credit. So it was one of those dealies. In the end of my life, the end of my life, it's so interesting because we conflicted a lot. A very strong, strong personality. But the thing is now, now after she passed away and it feels like her personality moved away, you know what mean? She's just sold.

I feel like she's my biggest supporter and my biggest angel. So it's so interesting how that can shift, you know, because really the only thing that's getting in all of our ways is our personalities and our idiosyncrasies and what we learn. But at a soul level, we're all just beautiful and magnificent.

feel so much of that. feel like my mother's of like, so mother's, my mother, who is, I think I'm a 60 now. So like her generation, and then her mother's generation. I like what I see in my mother now that I mean, we're estranged. But the older I get, and the more I go through, I realize

that she was trying to do the right thing in all the wrong ways. And so I truly believe that like probably your mom too just loved you so much and wanted to be there for you, but also was searching for validation and love in themselves and they just couldn't. And that's.

Yeah.

yeah.

Not

even a question. A lot of the fodder that I have for the musical now that I'm working on is because I saw, especially with my mom, that, and maybe I even have a little bit of it, even though I'm kind of embarrassed to say, but she really found her love when she was singing on stage. She really found her love when she was producing a show and people gave the applause. That was her, that was her.

you know, way of receiving. it's great. She didn't have self-worth or self-esteem. And like I said, in the very end, we did have closure. We did have closure. And now I look back and I go, me and mom, I wish I had known you from a different perspective. I wish I had self-worth, but I felt so beaten down.

Right? She can do it to herself.

⁓ that it was very hard. It's very hard to love anybody else when you don't love yourself.

Yeah, absolutely. That's, and that's where, I mean, that's where self-worth, self-love, those things. Yeah, no. I'm just reflecting. It makes me sad. It makes me devastated because I wish I had my mom, right? I wish I could have known the little girl in her.

Thank

because

that's the person that has been clawing for years to be loved. So it's just one of those very sad, difficult things that I'm sure a lot of people go through in different ways with different family members, children, that type of thing. But the grief, the grief from your relationships that don't pan out the way that you're told they would, or like you see other people with their moms and it's a beautiful relationship and they...

Great. Yes.

get along and they vacation together and they, you know, they can hug without feeling gross and like just all these things. So, yeah.

I you. You know, I don't usually tell this story, but I feel very strongly that I should. Thank you for your vulnerability and sharing that. And I really feel for you. I feel for everybody who's listening who has that same dynamic, because there's usually so many misunderstandings. But I want to share what changed, what changed everything. And it was at the very end of her life.

My mom had been very domineering, very strong and very combative with me. She was very jealous in so many ways and would take my shine, but also wanted me to have shine. Like you said, both. You know, like a mixed message. You know, I want, I know that her better self wanted, but there was another part of her that was like so sad that she couldn't. Anyways, she was in hospice. It was the very end of her life.

And one of the things that she would do is she would hang up on me and she wouldn't talk to me for, know, get the silence treatment. And I promised myself, I was like, Deborah, you just have to be there for her. No matter what you think, you know, this is really important when she's going through her cancer journey. You never want to have her regret or look back and walk away from her, no matter what she did to you.

You know, you don't want that. So I stuck with her and I, I, you know, put up with any kind of thing that she was throwing my way, any kind of shade, you know, it was like, me just stay there. And then, I get her this bed, like a really comfortable bed. And, you know, so, because she had said how much pain she was in and, then all of a sudden out of nowhere, out of nowhere,

She pulls this thing, you know, I thought we were good and she pulls this thing of like, I'm not going to talk to you. And I'm thinking, okay, well, that's weird because you're going to die any day. ⁓ so you won't be talking to me for a long time after that. But anyways, her nurse called me and she said, please, Deborah, you need to call your mom. And I was tenuous because it was like, ugh, enough abuse, know, enough, like what felt like abusive behavior. I can't take it anymore, but I did.

because once again, at the core of me, I just always wanted her love and loved her. And I call her and she has this little tiny voice, a voice I had never heard before. And she said, you must be so angry at me. And I'm like, angry at you? What are you talking about, mom? And she said, well, you got me that bed.

You got me that bed and I couldn't get on the bed. So you must be so angry at me. And it was like, it was almost as if all those years, all that hurt, I finally saw her, that little girl that you're talking about, the one that she was using bravado to protect herself from. It was all a farce, the whole game.

And she finally showed herself at the last second. So when I was still determined to be with her and ⁓ on the day that she died, it's like my husband knew, he knew, he knew. And so I got white flowers and put them everywhere. Cause I figured if she goes up, she'll see all the flowers and that would be really cool. And we did musicals cause she loved musicals. We were singing songs and singing songs. And at the very end of her life,

I'm holding her hand, my brothers are kind of there, other people around, and she pulls me closer and she tries with all her might to tell me 25 times, I love you, I love you, I love you, I love you. And that's what changed me.

It was all a mistake, the whole thing. And I thought, you mean we could have had a great relationship if you had just taken that big old bravado, but she had gotten, I guess, so hurt herself. And she would tell me and she'd flood me with that all the time and I would take it in. And then, know, as a sensitive kid, I wanted to make it okay. And that was the problem. But when I saw that it just, that's when

Like then from then on, like after she died, it's like I see pennies everywhere because she did believe in luckiest penny. said, that's the thing. You know, because she would flip. She would flip. Sometimes she would believe in me more than anything and other times it would be like, please don't shine so much. You're looking, making me look bad. But I understood in that moment, I understood in that moment that that was really who she was.

Don't worry, I'm just over here crying.

I think that's good. Let's all cry. Let's all cry. It's an honest cry, you know? And I think so many people feel that.

I'm just so happy that you got that.

Yeah, I am too. I worked for it though. When I say I worked for it, you know, it's sort of like, suck it if you knew what I had to stick through. It was like, it was tough. There was many times where I was like, Ooh, what are you doing, Debra? You're putting yourself in harm's way. I think we can all have that if we realize that when a person does pass, their soul is the only thing that's there.

Yeah.

What's wrong?

There's no personality, there's no learned behavior, there's nothing except for love.

See and then there's the

That's the other reason I'm crying is because I know that it would be the same with my mom. She will hold on to her ego and victim-ness until the day she dies. And honestly, my mom would probably hold on to it with her dying breath and curse me. And of course I don't want her to die, but ⁓ it's then how, you know, like,

What would your advice be then as somebody who really studies self-worth and helps people and children and adults figure out what that means? When you have a relationship with somebody, doesn't have to be your mom, but when it starts taking away pieces of you.

and they just make you feel like this terrible person. Like not you feel terrible, but they just make you feel bad all the time. My mom, like, like I also know that my mom has some sort of mental illness that she will never get under control because she refuses to ever admit there's a problem. She's perfect. ⁓ And so I know there's a lot there, but I refuse.

Yeah.

to put up with it. I realized if I didn't, it would inundate my children. It would weave its way into my babies. Because I also realized when she's in my life, I feel helpless when I'm around her. I started sticking up for myself towards the end before our second estrangement. ⁓ But...

Isn't there a point to where...I don't know.

I guess.

I'm working out so many things, just...

Going back, let's just go back to self-worth.

Well, I actually want to answer your question. I think it's a really important question. Let me go for it.

Yeah,

go ahead if you understood all that gibberish.

I totally understood it. I tracking

you. I was tracking you totally. I got it. And I got you. So the one thing that I learned, know, now with Paisley, I'm making it into a musical because for adults, like, you know, more in the wicked and Lion King realm, ⁓ because one thing that I learned, and it's the hardest thing of all, is that no one, no one can take your power away.

No one. We give our power away quill by quill so that we can be loved, understood, and sometimes, at least for me and maybe so many people, we go to all the places that were not heard. So listen to what I'm saying. We go to all the places were not heard to be heard.

So, and for in this instance, like let's say with your mom, you know, it's sort of like, you know, you know, in your mind, you want it to be a certain way. You want it to be good. And she might too, but there's no listening there. There's just, it's just two, it's just two souls or two people with their own dynamics, their own hurt. And that the more that you try to negotiate or work it out, the worse it gets because

Nobody's listening to begin with number one. Number two, you lost your voice because you've given away all your power for your life with people just because we want to. We're social animals. We like that kind of dynamic and so we can't understand why isn't this working? What's wrong with this whole picture? So the first thing that I have to say to you or anybody for that matter is that

self love, what self love can look like is to step away and understand that sometimes it's not up to us. I'll give you an example. A very frustrating example, by the way. My husband, because I didn't drive, right? I didn't drive for, oh, I still don't

Yeah.

and he would drive me everywhere. ⁓ I was much more spiritual than he was. He was a lawyer when I met him. He'd do this cocky thing and he wouldn't get near sick people. mean, just really, really an interesting thing, but for whatever reason we ended up together. But because he had to drive me every single place that I went that was spiritual or about God or about looking for some kind of solace in this world.

because he was driving me, he started to become more powerful than me in this. Little by little by little, was kind of fascinating. To the point that in the end of his life, and as we were talking before we got on, he had a five year struggle with cancer and it was really gnarly. He got to know the Holy Spirit. I mean, he like intimately got to know the Holy Spirit and

what he would do is I would come to him with an issue. Like let's say I was talking about your mom, know, I'm talking now, I'm you now for a second. And I'm like, you know, my mom, I feel so hurt because, you know, whatever it might be. And he'd be like, Holy Spirit be with Deborah. Holy Spirit be with the mom. Holy Spirit be, I wouldn't say it, but he would just like, I know that that's what he was doing because that's what he would tell me he's doing.

I'm like, no, you don't understand. We're talking about human stuff. Get human. You are a lawyer. Figure this out and fix it. Holy Spirit be with Deborah. Holy Spirit be with them all. And it was like so frustrating to me because it was like, he got it and I didn't. I was still in that human realm trying my best to fix things because I figured if I...

fix them, then I'd be happy. Not realizing that it wasn't my place to fix something that I never really understood anyways. It's so like, like only whatever you believe God to be, whatever you believe God to be, it's only from that vantage point can somebody see exactly what somebody went through when they were a child.

why they were traumatized, why they're reacting that way. We can't undo that kind of stuff. And ironically, in the last days of my husband's life, I'm telling you, God showed up for him and me. have seen, like, I should be devastated because he passed away. I should be on the floor. I should have called you and just said, yeah, we can't do this because of, you know.

and it would be good, it would be true. Of course, of course. But that's not the way my life looks. He had gotten so good at doing what he did that it's transcended to now I'm kinda like walking around going, I'm not gonna try to interfere with anything, I'm gonna just pray because I see the power of prayers. I see the power of getting out of the way.

Wow, I wouldn't have expected that had I known, yeah.

because we don't understand and giving it up, but not giving away your power to somebody else looking for love. Because that's something else I did. When you have a mom like we did, right? Who's very strong. Sometimes we run away, people pleasing is kind of running around looking, well, is there another mother out there who can mother me? mean, come on, man. I'm kind of a cute kid, even though I'm older, let's go.

It's a, it's, we really want that. And if we could, you know, if we could only talk differently and really just say, Hey, what was your experience in this? You know, but sometimes we can't do that. And sometimes it feels abusive and sometimes, you know, and I've learned that we don't get stuck because of fear. get stuck because we've given away our power quill by quill.

And that's why I am so dedicated to working on this musical that I'm working on through the music and story. I'm hoping that I can inspire people to reclaim their power in every which way.

I need to see this play. I meant to you know that's something I meant to do before we recorded was read Paisley's last will. So I will have to do that.

That's the

thread. That's the golden thread of the musical, but the musical itself, the producers that I have, everything that we're doing, we're a really interesting group of people because it's all heart first. Usually you're supposed to have like 14 to $40 million to pull something off like this. I don't have 14 to $40 million, but I got heart first and I know what I want to achieve. let's just see if...

what happens because it really isn't up to me. You know, that's another thing that everybody needs to hear and understand. Creativity doesn't come from us. It's inspiration. There's some kind of a channel that's up there and when we allow ourselves to be that, ⁓ that's when life turns glorious.

Do you have some tools for the listeners for when they are grieving? When they have a loss, even if it's not losing somebody, maybe they lost a job or a best friend or whatever it is. How can we get through that?

Yeah, I have, I don't know for each person, but I can speak for myself that I, what my, how I term my situation right now is wailing to wonder. Both. You can have both things simultaneously. You can have tremendous grief, but you can also have joy. Maybe, you know, maybe somebody smiles at you. Maybe, you know, it could be something so simple. It could be a taste of food.

But I think that we try to, you I heard the best statement I've ever heard. Grief is when you have all this love but know where to put it. So I've got all this love, but my child's gone. Where do I put the love? Or I have all this love, but my husband's gone. Where do I put the love? It's, it's, ⁓ the heartache of that. But here's the trick.

There's a million things that can accept your love. Maybe not people, you know, but there's, I think that you have to feel things fully. You can't, you know, and nobody can set a precedent for you of what grief looks like. Grief looks like something different for every person. I had tremendous grief for the last five years, pre-grief.

My father, is my best friend, passed away. And then my husband, who is my best friend, passed away. You know, two of back to back, a year apart. And so I grieved. I was, you know, people would look at me and they'd say, wow, you've got a black cloud around you and avoid me. They would avoid me because I was so sad. But that was just part of my process. And when I came out the other side, it's like, you know, I feel glowing.

I feel radiant because I was able to feel it fully and tap into my inherent gift. And my inherent gift is twofold. One is that I care profoundly about people because I think God set me up to go through everything that I did so that I would get it, you know, really, really get it. The story that I'm creating now, once it comes.

I wouldn't even be trying for a Broadway style musical if things hadn't happened. It's almost like after what I went through, this is nothing. It's like, why did I go for Broadway? mean, after you go through that kind of stuff, this is like a walk in the park. What are people gonna say? No? my gosh. No? Did you say no? Let me tell you about the three years I was in bed. Do you know what I mean?

Bye.

So I think that we all have a gift and sometimes, and this is so hard to say and so hard to understand, but it's my truth. Sometimes it's from the trauma that our gift becomes evident. Sometimes it's from the deep despair that the inspiration and creativity propel us forward. But sometimes we feel so broken.

And we can't, and we don't want anybody to judge us that we forget to be in alignment with our higher power, however you, no matter what you call it. So I guess my, my greatest advice is number one, feel it fully allow. Don't try to push it down or pretend. then the second thing is realize that even in

the midst of the worst kind of thing can be the greatest gift ever.

when you were talking about two things. Yeah. We talk a lot. I talk a lot, I should say, on the podcast about the duality. ⁓ I think there's this misconception. Like when I was growing up, it's like nobody talked about being one more than one emotion at a time. ⁓ But that is not how we work. That is not how we are made. We feel so many different things at one time.

Yeah.

Right, right.

Wow, okay, I got this new job. I'm excited, I'm nervous. I'm also angry because I was hoping for this one. We are so complex and I always say that duality is leaning into that and feeling both. Maybe focus on one for a few minutes and then you focus on the other. You're saying fully feeling it. It's okay to be happy when you're grieving the love of a lost one.

It's okay to laugh after somebody dies. Obviously not inappropriately somewhere like at the funeral or something, but even then maybe they were.

Do not do improv at the funeral. Not a good idea.

There you go.

It's like all of these weird social constructs that we grew up in or cultural traditions that we were grown into, just these weird things our family said and did, or we were made to believe, but being able to feel that. And then the second one, what was the last one that you told us?

but the inspiration and creativity and the gift.

Okay,

when initially after my daughter died, I hated silver linings. I hated that people talked about them. I hated that people found good in their devastating experience. I hated it. And I promised myself I would never be any, I would not be one of those people. And then of course I build my entire company and podcasts and life around this experience. But if I didn't have this experience, I wouldn't have this.

And so, yes, it's, feeling more than one feeling about this situation. But I feel like if we went through life, you know, just baseline, nothing happened, nothing good, really, nothing bad, really. We don't build resilience. We don't build strength. We don't grow. We just kind of stay the same. And so it is these devastating experiences that push us or ⁓

can become the catalyst for what we were meant to do. So now I look at it as Evelyn did have a purpose.

And she like, I believe their souls know that they were not meant to be here for longer than she was supposed to, than she was.

Because it's hard for me to believe that God or whoever would harm a baby. Let them die.

So I see that like learning more about soul and energy. they don't like, it's that common thing we learn in science class. Like energy is not destroyed. You cannot destroy it. So whatever our soul or star seed, whatever it is, doesn't die. They are here. You know, it's just they had a purpose. They fulfilled that purpose. Even if it was just, you know, my pregnancy and.

that's how long she was supposed to be here. But I feel like souls know that. so, yeah, just finding that silver lining or making good out of the bad. But Evelyn wasn't bad, right? She wasn't bad. The fact that she died sucked. So it's also trying to make sure we're not putting those bad feelings on our

I'm the one, the loved one who died, right? Because ⁓ I have a friend, her name is Helena. She also had a baby that died, Malia. And she, ⁓ I hope I don't butcher this. She says that... ⁓

The trauma is not our baby. The trauma is how we experience it or what we experience after. if we're treated wrong, if we're not supported, like she says it beautifully and meticulously, but it makes it, it's so beautiful. And I just, yeah, I feel like grief, grief is like part of our journey. Every single person is going to grieve something.

Mmm.

So learning how to come out of it, learning that creativity will heal you. It truly will. ⁓ No matter what that looks like, creativity doesn't have to be like art or music. It could be like sports or like, however, dancing, cooking, ⁓ gardening. It's like how you do those things. That's the creative part is how you're doing them, not the thing itself. So yeah, I love that.

no, not at all.

watching TV.

I love everything that you've said and shared with us. And I'm so thankful that you were here today. Sorry, was crying. my God. I know. ⁓

Why are you crying? Why are you crying? It's so honest. And the thing is,

there's so many people, like I can't even begin to imagine losing a child. Even though I lost two dear people, to lose a child is sort of like that motherly instinct, to be able to love. And I really love what you said about the silver lining, when people are saying, well, there's a reason.

you know, and they're saying all these things, but haven't really had the profound experience. But, but just think about this for a second. How many people have had horrific things happen and then they go on to help millions. John Walsh is one of them. John Walsh lost his, he lost, ⁓ you know, his son in a really horrific way and then went on to help so many people. mean,

almost every single one.

I don't mean to say anything that would hurt anybody, but it sometimes feels a little like a sweat up because a lot of times the people who have it the hardest, when they get their feet under them, they're like, I don't want anybody else to feel this. And so I'm going to do this. I'm one of those people.

same.

The

reason I'm doing the musical, the reason I can walk through walls right now is because of what I have experienced losing my voice and giving away my power. And I don't want people to do it. I really don't. But I don't want them to be, you don't have to be, you can keep your power and be centered. You don't have to be, you know, mean or egotistical. It's like a different thing. It's just knowing how to navigate that and hold onto it. And my story with Paisley, the musical,

will express that. So I think that it's beautiful that you have been authentic for any listener. know, the ones that scare me are the people that act like they've got it all together and nothing's ever wrong because I wonder, you know, I wonder, is it because they just pushed everything away? I mean, to be human is to be guess what? Human.

And let's dedicate this to your daughter. You know, I feel like she's still with us and she's probably just like, she knows that you're the best mom ever.

I'm like, is she? She's normally right here. I have her urn right here. My little two year old likes to take her urn and run around with it. But yes, absolutely.

Thank

⁓

She's already, she's already like, you know, she's already having some fun a little bit. anyways, my heart is with you. can't even, I can't even, I can't even.

Deborah, you

too. I'm, if anybody's listening, can I share about your husband? I mean, yeah, he just passed away like a month ago, he said. So everybody send love to Deborah. She, I mean, she is shining and glowing through her screen. ⁓ And she's, she's surviving, thriving. Sorry, you're not just surviving. You're, you're still, you're still going. ⁓

Sure.

Yep.

So yes, do you want to, do you have Instagram or Facebook? Okay.

Yes, yes, yes.

I would love for you to follow the journey for Paisley the musical. ⁓ The book that I explained before Paisley's Last Quill, I'm turning it into a full-scale musical, hopefully headed for Broadway once we get everything done. We're going to be putting out a album, a five-song album, conceptual album that's coming out first. That's how Hair did it.

That's exciting!

So we're following, it's

really exciting. That's how we're gonna approach this. And my handle on ID is atdebra.weed. And if you wanna check out the musical, it's paisleysfashionforest.com. Paisleysfashionforest.com. If you're a singer or a dancer, if you wanna use that creativity, hey, just hit me up. Maybe you have what I'm looking

Where are you? Did I ask you that before? Like, where do you live? Okay. Okay, awesome. Well, thank you so much for being here. I'll make sure I will link everything in the show notes. I will get your website and the books and check them out. They're beautiful. I mean, I've seen the covers. ⁓ Get them for your children, because this is something like, I didn't have these feel good books.

live in Florida, in Florida.

I had Dr. Seuss, which was great for reading, but not for self-actualization and development. So thank you so much for being here, Deborah.

Thank you so much for having me and just bringing your heart right to the table. I love that.