Gamify Your Life: Leveling Up in Personal Development with Dr. Agam Dhawan

Artwork for podcast Living Fearless Today

Episode 245 • 5th December 2023 • Living Fearless Today • Coach Mike Forrester

Well, hello and welcome back, my friend. Man, this week I am joined by Agam, the one is a psychiatrist who, man, not like any other that I've known. Super cool. He talks to us about the depression, the anxiety, and also like the video gaming. And so he's making all kinds of content that has the games and, you know, gives us a no pun intended, but a platform that's, you know, common for each of us and, uh, gives it something entertaining. Very, very cool. Um, just an awesome passion for helping us when we get into that spot to, uh, help elevate ourselves and to realize there's a common thread between us regardless of who we are. So Agam, how are you doing today, my friend?

I'm doing well, Mike. Thank you for having me here.

I appreciate you joining me. Well, let's start out. What does life look like for you today on the professional side of life?

Yeah, absolutely. So life is very good on the other side now. So the way that the medical school journey works, is first, you have to get into, you have to get into medical school, so you have to spend four years in undergrad trying to get in, right? Then you spend four years in medical school, delaying gratification, putting away, uh, hobbies and other things, life, social stuff, to just focus on medical studies. And then to become a psychiatrist, you do four years of additional, uh, training afterward. As a resident where you're only making a fraction of what you're worth. You're still learning, uh, the trade, right? You're still getting supervised by teachers and getting corrected all the time. But now I've graduated residency, doing well financially, like making six figures, right? I'm in charge, complete charge of what I want to do. I decide how I want to practice. People are reaching out to me offering, uh, hey, take this jobs it's 250K. Hey, take this job 300K, throwing out offers like that, right? And so it feels very gratifying professionally, um, to go from starting out as a college student, broke, not having money and then going through that path. And, you know, it's, as a young guy, I know that all guys really feel value from getting money, being successful. And so I'm happy to say that, like, I've started to finally feel, feel that way after 10 years.

Yeah. And I think residency is like that long sleep deprivation, right? Because it's like, you're serving, serving, serving, doing what everybody else tells you to do. And now it's like, you probably get a chance to catch up on a little bit of, uh, long overdue sleep, right?

Have you heard about why it's called residency?

Huh uh?

It's called residency and the doctors are called residents because they are literally residents of the hospital.

Oh, that makes sense. Yeah. I didn't see that one before, but yeah, you do. I mean, that's why they have rooms off to the side where you go to sleep rather than going home.

Right. So thankfully, psychiatry residency is not like that. It's not as brutal by any means, but you may have heard like surgery, internal medicine, some of those specialties, right? They are, uh, very intensive training, like 70, 80 hours a week, six days on one day off. You, I remember when I was doing those rotations, I would walk in at four or five a.m. when it's dark and you walk out at 7 p.m. And it's still dark.

Yeah. You miss all the light, dude. Well, we will jump back into this part and a little bit as we, uh, come back around to your story, um, what does it look like for you today on the. Uh, personal side of life now that you know, you're not a resident?

So personally it looks very good, too. Uh, so when, when I started, right, the, I was someone who felt like I couldn't really talk to girls. I couldn't really have friends. I had this insecurity that because I'm a short Indian guy, who's five foot six, weighs 130 pounds, that, you know, cool guys wouldn't want to be friends with me. And certainly no attractive women would want to date me. And so that was a big insecurity that I had to learn how to overcome through personal development, physical development, uh, like psychological mindsets, right? Developing those, developing self confidence, all of it. But now life is, is, is going really well. Um, very grateful to say that. I live in New York City. Um, I have social opportunities pretty much every week. I am into photography. I've gotten into photography now. And so I literally do Model photography on the side, so I've become involved in like that social circle, as well, too. So, like, have a social event tonight. We have a pool party and photo shoot tomorrow. Have a Halloween photo shoot coming up, right? So it's been able to curate this, uh, social circle. And now I feel so grateful that like my past self took those actions, uh, to get to this point and it doesn't matter that I'm short or brown. If I can do it, right, by taking the right actions forward, I know that other guys can do it, too.

Yeah. So, as you're in that environment now, before you started making that changes, do you think you would have entered this environment? Or if you did, like, how would that have affected you? Would you have behaved differently? You know what I mean?

Yes, I do. I wouldn't have been ready for it because let's say, in a game, right? You're trying to fight a boss and you're fighting a level 50 boss, and you're only level 20. Well, all your attacks will not be effective, that boss goes and hits you and you've already lost half your health, right? You are not going to be successful even though you try again, try again, try again. Now let's say you take a couple years off, you level up, you come back and now you're level 45 or you're level 50. Now the boss isn't so hard anymore. The attacks don't sting nearly as much, right? You know exactly how to attack, to, uh, dodge the boss' attacks and inflict damage. So it's kind of like that in real life where I feel like I'm so much more successful, uh, I mean, career wise, even attitude wise, abundance mentality wise, physically, that I don't feel intimidated in these environments. Like, I don't have imposter syndrome anymore, right? If a beautiful girl talks to me, I don't feel like I don't deserve to talk to her. Like I'm very calm and collected. I don't try to suck up to her, right? As I know a lot of guys have struggled with and I've struggled with before, too. And so I think that's really what comes from leveling up your own value. And, uh, that's the message I think that really guys can really benefit from hearing.

Yeah, you don't feel like you're continuing to play Bloodborne, you know, with a boss that's multiple levels ahead of you. Yeah.

Exactly.

I get that. Um, so when you look back, like, where did those kind of thoughts and beliefs of, hey, I'm short, I don't fit in? Like, the girls aren't going to be interested in me, the, the guys that are, you know, the athletes wouldn't want to be friends. Like, where do you see that that kind of, um, began to go from just like a thought to a belief?

Yeah, that's a really good question, Mike, and it really speaks to how we internalize beliefs psychologically, right? And so, of course, I remember having this thought in sixth or seventh grade. I was an immigrant, too, right? And so it started, I used to get bullied for my name. They used to call me Eggs and Ham, Sam I Am, uh, egg, Egghead, like things like that, right? And so I was an immigrant, like in fourth grade. So I remember crying a lot because there's one bully would call me that. And then as we would get older, you know, I would start to see some of the athletes exactly like you'd mentioned that they would be doing parties and stuff with the attractive girls in our class, like seventh grade, eighth grade, right? And as young guys, like we're full of testosterone, like that's what we care about. Like, I'm not even trying to care about school. Like I care about like impressing this girl, right? Like that's what we care about. And so I was like, I'm not getting invited to these parties. Get to high school, right? I remember the girl who like, who had their locker next to me was very attractive girl. I still remember her, her name, her name was Morgan. And she had always this boyfriend who was like two years older and they would make out in the locker right next to my locker. And I remember having such FOMO of thinking like, Oh, I wish that was me. Like that, like, that's not me. Like, why can't that be me? Like, I'm not the one who's getting any interest here, right? And so as I kept having these experiences, it cemented that, uh, belief more and more in my head because I saw visual evidence of it. And I'd convinced myself that that was the case.

And did, do you see that that belief getting cemented, did it then make a way for other lives and beliefs to come and, you know, on the, the lacking side, right? Not that, hey, you're enough, but you know, you're missing out. You're not worthy. Did, did other things come along with it? And, you know, just pair up with that?

Absolutely. Right. That's why it's called the negative depressive spiral for a reason. It's because you start going down the spiral. I remember one time I was sitting next to this guy, uh, in biology class and they were, he was one of I guess the cool kids and they had had, they were having a party. And so he actually invited me to the party. But I thought that I was not good enough to go. I had another instance, so I never went. I had another instance, my senior year of high school. I had just started to become a little bit more funny, getting a little bit out of my shell, and there was a girl who sat next to me in math class and so she had written, or she had taken my, she was, I guess she was flirting, but she had taken my planner and started writing something in it. So she wrote something in the planner and then like put it back on my desk when I went to the bathroom and I came back. Came back, look at the planner and I kid you not, it says prom ? with a heart.

Wow.

I acted like I never saw that.

What, like, what went through your mind as far as when you saw that? Did you know it was her? And, and if so, like.

I knew, like, I knew exactly what was happening. I knew it was her.

Ahh.

But I thought I was not worthy enough to go to prom with her. So legitimately, like, I turned the page, or I started pretending like I was going to do my math homework. I remember thinking that there's no way, like, this must be some kind of joke. And if I act, if I agree to it, then, um, you know, I'm just gonna get made fun of. Now looking back on just go back and punch myself in the face being like, what are you doing? You're an idiot ,like, shut up and accept. But back then like that's the thought ahead and it really kind of speaks to how you know one thought, kind of, leads to another, leads to another and really just how low self worth, self confidence we develop.

Do you see that that same kind of fear or unworthiness then continued along, like, as you got into school and, you know, like, um, continuing on in your education? Do you see, like, that continue to pretty much dog you and, and continue on?

Yeah, definitely for a while. When I entered college, I knew that I had to change, like if I wanted my life to, if I wanted like the results that I wanted in life, then I knew that my behaviors and my actions and my thoughts had to change, right? And so that's I've learned that from CBT, cognitive behavioral therapy. But I remember in college when I joined, I joined a fraternity, right? But for the first one or two years, I felt like an imposter, like during that, like I was like, there's no way that these guys actually want to hang out with me. I would skip the parties a lot of the times because I'd be like, oh, I don't feel comfortable there. I would skip football games and tailgates because I was like, I'm not a football person. Uh, there's no way I could enjoy this. These guys are all loud and boisterous. I'm not loud and boisterous. There's no way that they, uh, you know, I'm not comfortable here, right?

Mm-Hmm.

So I'd avoid that, uh, situation. So definitely continued on for a while and it was only until my senior year that, uh, so I started living in the fraternity house. So getting complete, like exposure to the whole situation, right? I'm there all day, every day. And I also became part of the leadership team. Like I was the scholarship chairman, so helping the guys raise up their grades and creating study plans and study schedules and stuff. And so that, what that really did was. I started giving back, caring for someone that's not myself. It's not being so internally focused. I'm focused on helping other guys. So I started investing a lot more in them. And then by living in the house, everyone is around all the time. And I started realizing that, hey, these are just people too, and they have their own insecurities and troubles, and like, we would talk about them. We would have late night chats until 2 or 3 in the morning, talking about all our problems and stuff. And I was like, you know, these guys are like having just similar issues just as I am, and that was really like what turned it around, uh, I guess mentally for me. And I think that a lot of guys can, um, also feel like the other guys are, that they're imposters right in the situation and helping realize that, Hey, you know, other people are having their own issues just like us, can be really relieving.

Yeah, it's almost like, uh, to go back to the game analogy, it's almost like you've got, you know, like a hand cannon and you're only doing five damage. You think everybody else has taken the boss down and they're only doing five damage, but you just don't know that unless you're talking to other people, um.

Exactly.

And it's.

I really, I really liked that analogy.

I mean, it's how many of us as men just, don't don't share? We don't talk about it. We're afraid that we're the only one, and if we say something's wrong or something we're concerned about, we'll be ostracized and kicked out even further than we've, you know, crawled into the camp. Um, and what little bit of acceptance there is will be totally just vaporized and gone. Is that kind of resonate with what your experience was?

Yeah, absolutely. Because I thought that if I got found out, then I would get kicked out and then I would have nothing.

So, how did you start transitioning out of that belief? I mean, you're now discovering, hey, other guys are struggling in the same or similar ways. I'm able to help them out in this area. So you're seeing that you have a value, um, amongst other guys. How did you then take it from there to, you know, like change it, you know, change your belief, change your behaviors? What, what was the next step for you?

Yeah. So I had that experience in my senior year of college living in the fraternity house and I remember feeling how gratifying it was to give back to, um, these guys who were in my position and in younger because I did have value. I had, I was one of the smartest guys in the chapter, right? Like I was able to kind of be part of it, yet still keep my grades up, still do all this extracurriculars to get into medical school, right? Whereas a lot of guys had 2.0 GPAs. So I had value there that I could offer to them, right? And that was really good for, uh, my self esteem knowing that. And, um, in fact, like I actually ended up running for president, uh, my senior year, like I was going to stay an extra year just to run for president. And so I didn't win because, um, my my, my, my brothers were like, you're being an idiot, shut off, go to medical school. You don't need to stay an extra year. And I was like, yeah, you're right. But I remember having that thought, right? And so now kind of leading up to this, becoming a psychiatrist, starting to realize that, Hey, like I have value here and I can give back to guys like me, guys who are younger than me, even guys who are older than me who've struggled with similar issues that I have because I've gone through kind of a self growth journey, too. And the time that I feel the most fulfilled is when I think about my younger avatar, my Colin, so to speak, and how can I help him not make the same mistakes and go through the same pains that I did.

So if there's like, let's say you're talking to me, I'm, you know, either not, not in that kind of environment, but let's say I'm just going through college without being, you know, um, let's just say I'm in the regular dorms, right?

Yeah.

Um, or, you know, Hey, I've moved on. I am now working in my career, how can I find like my level of competence where I'm able to contribute to gain that confidence that took you from a position of, Hey, I'm going to play in the backfield to considering I'm going to go run for president. I mean, that's a large shift. How can, how can we start finding those things to equip ourselves wherever we're at to then find our own confidence like you did?

Yeah, that's a really good question. And so the video game analogies, I think they're perfect for this, right? Whenever we start at, uh, but you start off a new character, a base character, right? The character is usually not specced even. So some characters might start with more attack, some might have more speed naturally, some, uh, might have more defense naturally, right? And so we all come with our own natural attributes. And so there's a reason that tall people end up playing basketball. It's because they know that like they, that's a skill set that they develop that also is supported by their natural attributes, right? And so then they end up getting better and better at it. They, uh, start, like, really competing at higher levels. They can start teaching other people how to play basketball, right? And so, and they feel fulfillment in rising up through their basketball journey. But if that person had played, let's say fencing, like they might not get that same level of, uh, fulfillment because it doesn't really support like a lot of their natural, um, tendencies. So to answer your question, if someone is kind of struggling trying to figure out what they, um, want to do, I would ask them, okay, well, like, what are you naturally good at? What do you naturally gravitate towards? What kind of hobbies, activities have led you, um, to this point that you are here? And then, how can we take those and transition them to be of service to other people? Because it's only when you're in service to other people that like, you feel the most, uh, fulfilled and happy within yourself. Like I'm sure in your case, right? Like when you had your family, now you had your kids, your grandkids, like, that's probably the biggest motivator for you to be your best because you're doing it for them.

So if I'm at that point and I go, Hey, this is what I'm good at, and I want to serve somebody, how would you encourage somebody to just say, Hey, put your concerns of being found out right of, Hey, I don't want to be totally ostracized. How do you encourage somebody to put peace in that place or just say, Hey, step out courageously, even though you don't feel courageous and give this a shot. What's the best way to do that?

Yeah. So in mental health, right, we have this therapy, it's called exposure therapy. And the way that exposure therapy works, it's like, let's say someone has a fear of heights. You could just take them to like the 50th floor of a building and then have them look out. That works in some cases, but you're very likely going to traumatize that person. But, what if, we took that person who's afraid of heights, we took him to the first floor, and then we had him look out, and then we took him to the second floor, and then we had him look out the balcony, their heart rates pounding, but then we take him out to the second floor again, and then they've kind of calmed down, they're not breathing as intensely, right? They're not feeling like they're choking. And then they go to the third floor and the fourth floor and so on and so forth, right? And so anytime anyone is starting a new skill, there's, we always have these thoughts like, am I, I'm not good enough. Uh, people are going to discover me. People are going to find me out. But then mentally, we, you can tell yourself that, hey, this is part of the process, right? That's, that's the thought behavior feeling loop, the feedback loop that's placed, right? That, that we teach in therapy. And so then once you start putting yourself out there, you're getting exposure, right? So that's the exposure therapy that's kicking in. And then you're also correcting your thought processes. And every time you have the imposter feeling, you can tell yourself, hey, this is part of the process. I'm still learning and I'm still growing. And I've gotten so far already, and I'm only going to keep on getting better and better from here.

Gotcha. That's helpful. So it's a matter of being uncomfortable, but not fearing for your life. Like you were talking about being on the 50th floor. It's just maybe go to the meeting. See if you can help in some way instead of like thinking, I have to go run for president. Like you were talking about. Just make a move in the right direction. Is that correct?

Absolutely. So there's a, there's a constant, there's a, there's a concept called like, when looking at behavior change, I forget what the exact concept is called, but the whole idea is that to make any kind of change, to have any kind of growth, there has to be a sweet spot. If you're lifting like a hundred, if you're lifting 200 pounds in your bench press, and you add on 202 pounds, you're not really making much progress. Like that's not enough progress to stimulate growth, right? That's such a miniscule change. If I add on 250 pounds, like for, or add on 50 pounds, if your max is 200, that's too much. And now you're going to drop the bar on yourself and injure yourself. The sweet spot is like 210 pounds, 215, where it's enough, it's enough weight to have it be stressful, have it be uncomfortable, have it be challenging, but not so much that it completely wrecks you or demoralizes you from continuing further.

So a stretch, not strenuous.

A stretch.

Makes sense.

Yeah.

So you're starting to find your confidence, get your feet under you, um, as you're leaving college. How did things continue to progress for you from there? I mean, you're like, you're going through this transformation as we're, you know, watching you just going through the first phase of college. What does it look like as you're continuing to, you know, go through the medical, uh, schooling. What does that look like?

Yeah. So I guess I'll speak both socially and professionally, right? If we continue on that social journey. So in medical school, I actually became our school's social chair. And so each class had a social chair. So we were responsible, I had a co-chair in our class. And so we were responsible for planning the Christmas party, the Halloween party, we had a, um, a formal that we did every year with all, uh, four years of the medical school, like first years to fourth years. And, so immediately kind of taking all those things I learned from undergrad from fraternity days and then becoming the one who's planning the events to so like socially, like, I felt like I was really leveling up in that regard, too. And professionally, I felt like you have to develop a lot of skills to succeed in medical school, right? That I did not have an undergrad. In undergrad, I would, I remember we had a, we had a final exam, uh, of chemistry and I was studying the night before to like 3, 4, 5 am to wake up for the exam at like nine. And then I had a physics exam at like two, and then I would study after the exam at nine, uh, all the way up to lunchtime to study for this physics exam at two.

Hmm.

That doesn't work in medical school. So because the materials you have so much so you practice. Delayed gratification or you practice like setting in a study habit every single day as opposed to just cramming, right? Um, delayed gratification where you know that you are paying money to learn this education that's not even going to pay off till eight years in the future. So we develop that skill set, right? The mention the continuous, um, how to absorb information very, very quickly. A lot of information, which is a valuable skill to learn in real life, right? The faster we learn things, as I'm sure you know, with like your podcast and stuff, the faster you can apply them, right? Which is a fundamental business rule. Um, yeah, it's those, Oh, how to, even how to speed read, how to speed read, how to speed, uh, listen to YouTube videos, right? Like these are all like minuscule like random things but they all add up to leveling up because if you can listen to an audiobook faster, you can implement its lessons faster, uh, too. And of, uh, oh, how to talk to people, how to communicate in a way that people trust you immediately. People feel that you are confident. People feel you are competent. People trust their medical conditions, their livelihoods. In psychiatry, people tell us our, their deepest, darkest secrets of traumas and assaults and, um, breakups and just thoughts about ending their own life, attempts at ending their own life, right? All that stuff. And so becoming that person who can receive all of that emotional, um, energy and not get bogged down by it. All to summarize is that, you know, as guys, as we're going on through life, we are developing skill sets, we're developing skills here, we're developing skills here, we're getting XP, and we're putting that XP into different skill trees, so that way when we're fighting higher level bosses, higher level challenges in real life, We've built up the skills and the XP to do that.

Gotcha. So, if we're talking about it being a skill tree, right, whether it's, you know, like a strategy game like Civ or, you know, another one where we're building up our, our, uh, skills in fighting, right, like a third person shooter. What do you see as you take that analogy over to our lives? What are those basic skills that we should make sure, hey, these are in place first before we're branching out, you know, kind of going into other areas? What are the ones that should be like? These are the 100, you know, skills, uh.

Fundamental skills. Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah. My favorite, my absolute favorite one for young guys to start with, in my opinion, is fitness. And the reason I mentioned fitness is because it teaches us the lessons that in a smaller micro environment that are required to be successful in bigger and bigger environments. For example, let's say I want to lose weight and get jacked, right? I have to learn how to go to the gym. I have to learn how to execute on all the exercises. I have to learn how to do the exercises repeatedly over time, delay that gratification until I start seeing that result, right? Because we could go on for weeks and months without seeing any progress. We have to learn how to diet. How to track our calories, know our protein, uh, make, make changes, sacrifices for sleep, for nights out. Um, resisting temptation. Um, when your friend offers you alcohol or ice cream that no, like this is going to go against my fitness goals. We have to learn how to time manage, how to fit that in amongst all the different activities that we have. We have to learn how to say no to excuses because it's easy to wake up or come back after a hard day, say, Oh, things were hard, I'm not going to go versus I am going to go because it's on my calendar. And I'm building up this discipline skill to do that, right? So it's like, all these things are in this like fitness microcosm can be extrapolated to any area of life success, whether it's business, career, relationships, anything. I think the skills that we learn here, you can just take anywhere. And so that's why I recommend it as like, one of, the most important thing for young guys to learn.

So if somebody offers us booze or ice cream, we just need to mix them together and have boozy ice cream. That's what you're saying, right? I'm just kidding.

That's the solution. Yes.

Yep. Just mix them both into one. So, you know, I have done this and I've had other, you know, friends and clients that have done this as well. We'll get in this analysis paralysis of, hey, you know, okay, fitness. Great. Now I need to figure out which is the best plan and I need to figure out to the nth degree. Is it just jump in and do something correct? Just to get the momentum going and then finesse and, and get more detailed as we're going along? Is that kind of the objective here?

Yeah, I'm so glad that you're bringing this up because there's actually two prongs to this I've found super valuable in my life. So one of course is definitely you have to jump in. Like, there's no way it's going to be perfect. And so I remember when I was in high school, I used to, my parents used to go to hot yoga class at their local gym. And so as a young guy, I was like, man, I don't want to do hot yoga. Like I want to lift weights, right? Being 16, 17, but I didn't know anything about weightlifting. And so literally just like go around to the different machines and like practice them and try them. And like I had no routine, like nothing, or nothing like that, right? But that exposure got me comfortable being in the gym. So that when I got to college, like I could go like work out at least with some friends or go after school or something and it was fine and I started to figure out more routines and things like that because I built up that confidence from, okay, like the gym is not a scary place, which I know it can feel scary, um, for a lot of young people, right? Especially a lot of older people too, if they've never been to the gym before, right? Like, it's scary. You feel like people are going to judge you, they're watching you, right? There's, everyone's doing well. Imposter syndrome, again, everyone's doing their exercises perfectly except for you. You're not going to make any progress, right? All these limiting beliefs we tell ourselves. So, like, that's the one end. But then the second end, which is a lesson I really learned the hard way is that we have to invest in mentors or people who are ahead of us so that way they can teach us. And we have to just like follow, um, what they say without ego. So the story behind this is that I never bought a gym program until like I was like 24, 25. My thought was that Hey, there's all this information that's available free on the internet. There's YouTube videos. There's guides. I can like I don't need a gym program It's easy. And so I would go to the gym all my time during college without ever adjusting my diet. Ever. Because I did I literally did not even understand that diet was like, the most, one the most important things when it comes to having results in the gym because I was like, oh, yeah I'm just following this workout. I'm following this workout. And I didn't make any progress. And then I get to medical school and I was telling one of my buddies there about working out and he told me, you know, you have to eat big to get big, right? Like, that was the phrase he said, but like, I completely blew my mind. Like, Oh, like, I have to actually like track my diet and like, understand that I need to eat at a calorie surplus and get in protein to make progress. And then it started doing that. But then I, but then I was eating too much and then I just got really fat because of that. Like my face became round. I had to change belt sizes because I was like, oh, you just eat big to get big. And then I had to learn, okay, this is how you cut down weight. You don't need to overeat. But that like seven year journey could have been cut into like two if I just bought a proper fitness program for a couple hundred dollars, and followed what that person was saying to the T. And so I think that's the lesson with that is that, you know, you definitely have to jump in, but you also have to seek guidance and mentors from people who are ahead of you and be willing to learn from them and implement their lessons.

I think one of the most helpful mindshifts for me, has been looking at a challenge, and going, How? How can I do this? In, you know, like if I don't have instruction in the gym, just like you were talking about, okay, I can find a fitness plan. I can, you know, if you're going to like a Planet Fitness, they have trainers there. You just need to schedule it, right? Um, you may have a friend that is, you know, athletic, and they're at the gym, being able to ask them. It's oftentimes we just look at it and go, I don't have an answer right now off the cuff and we'll quit. Asking how puts us in a position to look for a solution and they're often closer than we think. And there's more of them. So, um, the fact of you talking about, Hey, find a mentor. Look and see, you know, there's programs, there's all this kind of stuff that is pervasive through out, you know, a lot of the situations we'll face. And it's up, you know, just asking for help instead of being silent and just going through that, uh, the challenge that that situation faces.

I find that in therapy, like half the work that I do is helping just giving people permission to take action. Like, if they want to do something, just telling them, you know, it's okay, like you can, you can actually do it.

So what is it in that, that we, we aren't giving ourselves permission? I mean, why is, why is that block there? That, that I need to come to you to have you give me permission instead of me going, Hey, I'm an adult. I can go ahead and do this. What's the block?

Yeah, and so that really comes down to that, uh, that self confidence that we were talking about before, uh, too, right? Just, so just like we can go down the negative spiral of having a bad experience, having a bad experience, having a bad experience, thoughts kind of getting worse and worse and worse. We can also do the same thing upward too, where you have one positive experience that leads to another, that leads to another. You know, you start working out once and then you start working out a couple times a week. You start adjusting your diet and then, oh, a couple months goes by, Oh, I've actually lost 10 pounds. Oh, I can actually see my biceps are bigger. Oh wow, now my abs are, uh, my abs are actually kind of showing now. Whereas like three months ago, I didn't have any of this. Over here, I needed to ask for permission. I needed to ask my older brother or my therapist, whoever about going to the gym. But now I've proven to myself that I can do these things. I can do it. I can do it. And I'm having results here, right? Creating a positive feedback loop. And so now that I've created that positive feedback loop, my brain is, the dopamine is rewarding itself every time I'm becoming successful. And so now I'm at the point where it's like, Oh, it's super easy. I can go to the gym. I can, uh, work out. Like I know that I can do this. Oh, if I want to start my own business, yeah, actually I can be successful. You know, I crushed it in the gym. I could probably do the same thing in business. I want to do well on this test. Yeah, like I crushed it in the gym. Like, look, I lost like 20 pounds in like, the last four months. I could probably get an A on this test. I could probably go to medical school. I could start my own podcast. So it's building up those wins slowly, but surely. And then we start transitioning from needing other people's approval to now we start giving ourselves. Uh, the approval and permission.

So it almost creates like a, a validation that you're capable to give you that confidence to take on the next challenge, maybe more actively, right? Instead of so passively when you're lacking that confidence. So, once we've gone to the gym, um, you know, as far as like the foundation of the skill tree, where could we move to from there that you would say, hey, these are things that we, um, really need to consider including in our, our learning and our growth?

Of course. And it's not just like we're just working at the gym and then everything else kind of falls away. Right. Like it's all these things are being processed in parallel. But, uh, yeah, to definitely answer that question. I think one of the next things is social skills. Social skills, human skills, emotional skills. This world is run by human beings, other human beings. And if guys, we want to be successful, we aren't going to get anywhere unless we have other people helping us, other people supporting us, other people guiding us, right? We talked about the validation at the beginning. Well, you have to be someone that people want to validate and support. And you do that by building social skills. You want to have friends, you want to have a girlfriend, whatever, a wife, uh, children, you have to have social skills. You have to be able to read their emotions, kind of understand how they're feeling, understand how to behave with them, how to speak, how to communicate, how to be silent when they're talking so that that way they feel safe and trusted around you, right? If you want to be successful in some kind of job you need, you have to know how to interview, which is a social skill. You have to know how to have that interviewer have confidence in you, that you are the right person for that job. So like nowhere is we, we're not going to get anywhere in this world without, um, having social skills. Like the days of the lone wolf are gone. Like this is, we're a community and we're all, we've always been a community. And so I think the faster that, um, young guys, especially, right, cause they're a little bit naive, understand that, um, the better their trajectory can be going up in life.

So if like I went through a phase like this, you and I had talked about this before we started recording. If I was at a place where I'm depressed, my anxiety is high and I've just withdrawn, it's, it's, there's a higher level of like intimidation and fear of doing those things. How can I step out in that, um, without it, you know, like, let's say, like you gave the analogy of going to the second floor, what kind of things can I do that would put me on the second floor and help me to continue going, um, that's not totally outside of like my comfort zone are going to kick my anxiety through the roof?

Exactly. You bring up a really good point in that the rise, like it's so much harder when you're depressed or anxious to go up to the, um, the second floor, right? Because there's all that inertia, all those negative thoughts, everything that's built up. So going along that analogy, let's imagine that instead of starting a floor one, you're actually underground. And right now you're just trying to get above ground, like that is your goal, right? The steps you might take have to become smaller now, but we still have to take the steps regardless. It might be harder to go from, like, floor 0 to floor 1, floor 1 to floor 2, right? But let's say I'm on floor 1, and I'm trying to go to floor 2. I can still go to the first step. And then I can go to the second step on the stairs, and I can go to the third step in the stairs. I can grab a walking cane and use that to push me up. I could take the ramp that's not even taking the stairs, and the ramp that's kind of like going around, and that's more mellow. So I could take the ramp and slowly get up there. So the process of change is still, it's still there, right? You have to challenge yourself in a way where it's like slight, it's like enough to uncomfortable you, but not where it's so overwhelming, but we can choose how big and small, um, the steps we take are.

So, if like, let's go back to fitness being that first, you know, like foundational step.

Yeah.

So it could be keeping a commitment to myself and learning to keep my promises to myself, build that trust and that confidence, could be, Hey, on Monday, I'm just going to put my shoes on to go to the gym. Tuesday, you go out to your car and drive to the parking lot of the gym, right? That's kind of building, building that as we go along, right? Is what you're talking about. Step one, step two, step three to get to floor two. Is that kind of the same thing you're addressing?

Absolutely. Like, let's say for me and, me and you, right? We might say, oh yeah, you just go to the gym, but like, like you, right? It's like, it seems so simple. Or even so a new person, like I could say, Hey, you know, you just drive to the gym, sign up, go with a personal trainer and your average Joe might be able to do that, right? Oh, okay. I went, I signed up. I've never been in a gym before, but you know, I'm here now. But for that person, it's like you said, you, you, we step it down, you break it up into steps. The next day could be, Oh, I'm just going to watch a YouTube video on bench pressing. The next day could be, I'm going to watch a YouTube video on diet, right? Like smaller, smaller steps, but we're still making progress, right? And that's the most important thing because as, the way the brain works is that it has feedback loops, right? If we make negative progress towards something, then our brain kind of rewards us. Um, like if you're kind of going down, then you get dopamine release and you keep going down and down, right? This is why victim mentality is so pervasive, because it feels good to be a victim. Our brain rewards us that, rewards us that kind of thinking. It justifies it. But it's the opposite, too. Like, hey, I watched that YouTube video today. Oh, nice. Like, nice. I made progress. I, um, I put on my shoes today and drove to the parking lot. Oh, nice. I made progress, right? You're leveling slowly, slowly leveling up. You're giving yourself the positive reinforcement, just like in a game where you might not be able to beat that boss in Bloodborne, but hey, now you beat at least some of the enemies that are around him, right? And now, now you didn't die. Like the, when you went around that, when you went up to the boss, as opposed to you died like a week ago when you try to fight him., So it's just really just gamifying that concept like that life, you know, bringing it to, um, even depression healing, anxiety healing, and just knowing how small the steps you have to take are, are. Is, is the most important thing.

Yeah, set yourself up for a win and then continue to build upon that. I mean, that was when I was in the midst of it, that was how I found the freedom to, you know, go two steps and then three steps. So it's just making progress and there's a saying, you know, progress, not perfection.

Exactly.

Yet we do expect perfection out of ourselves. I would look at you and go, nah, you're, you're doing great. But I would put a different expectation on myself and uh, just giving ourselves grace. And recognizing the progress we've made is so powerful. Um, if we would just tap into it. Well, Agam, I want to say thank you so much for joining me today to share, you know, like your journey, the way you've made the changes, the gamification of it, I think in putting it in that lens, we can change our perspective and take things on that when we've looked at it traditionally seems overwhelming and you're giving us away, you know, a vehicle to, to find those wins, to move up our skill tree and, uh, man, I appreciate it. Thank you very much.

Absolutely. Mike, thank you for having me.

Absolutely, my friend. Um, how can men get in touch with you outside of this podcast? What's the best way to connect with you?

Absolutely. So the best way to connect with me is through my website, so www.agamdhawanmd.com. So there you can see all the different content I have, if what you're hearing here, um, resonates with you, whether it's YouTube video, TikTok, uh, Instagram, you know, if you feel like you're struggling with depression, anxiety, um, ADHD, any kind of trauma, you want to do, um, more one on one type of work, then just feel free to book a free consult on my website. We can talk about, um, what's going on and what we can do to help.

I appreciate it. Thank you, my friend.

Absolutely. Thank you, Mike.

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