Redundancy during pregnancy or maternity leave is a complex and sensitive area of employment law. In this episode of Redundancy Matters I’m joined by Clare Chappell, an independent employment lawyer with over 25 years’ experience supporting both employers and employees through difficult workplace situations. Clare specialises in advising women who are pregnant or on maternity leave and facing redundancy, as well as employers managing those processes, and she brings legal insight alongside a clear understanding of the human impact in this area.

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Welcome to Redundancy Matters.

2

I'm June Hogan and this is the podcast

where I help HR professionals and

3

leaders managing redundancies to put

people at the heart of the process.

4

In today's episode, I'm joined by

Claire Chapel, an employment lawyer

5

with over 25 years experience.

6

And Claire specializes in supporting

women facing redundancy during

7

pregnancy and maternity leave.

8

And she also advises

employers in these situations.

9

So she's really well placed to

share her experience on both sides.

10

This is sensitive and complex area

of employment law and how you handle

11

it is what makes all the difference

to the individual and the process.

12

So we talk about what

does the law actually say?

13

Where do employers go wrong and what does

a fair and thoughtful process look like?

14

It's a really practical conversation

about the rights, the risks,

15

and the responsibilities to

handle this in the right way.

16

I really hope you enjoy it.

17

So let's dive in to today's episode.

18

Okay.

19

June Hogan: welcome to today's episode

of Redundancy Matters, and today I'm

20

delighted to be joined by Claire Chapel,

who is an independent employment lawyer,

21

and we are going to be talking about

all things maternity and redundancy.

22

So welcome to the show, Claire.

23

Clare Chappell: Thank you

very much for having me.

24

It's lovely to be here.

25

June Hogan: Wonderful.

26

Yeah, really excited to dig into this one.

27

'cause I know it's an area

that can be quite complicated.

28

It's an area that's quite

emotive and it's also an area

29

that you have deep expertise in.

30

So, um, yeah, really excited to hear more.

31

So would you just like

to introduce yourself

32

Clare Chappell: sure.

33

My name's Claire.

34

I'm an independent employment

lawyer, with Carbon Law Partners.

35

I've been doing this

for 25 and a half years.

36

Now, I guide employers and employees

through tricky employment law

37

situations to help them get to a, a

better place for themselves or their

38

business, whatever that looks like for

them in their particular situation.

39

So I quite like working with

both employers and employees.

40

Not at the same time obviously, but

it gives me the perspective from

41

both sides of the fence as it were.

42

So I think I can offer more value

to either party, because I'm kind

43

of thinking also about what would

I do if I was acting for the other

44

party in the particular situation.

45

So I'm, I quite like that variety,

but I do a lot of work with

46

women who are on maternity or are

pregnant and have been treated.

47

Poorly for reasons that seem connected to

that pregnancy and maternity situation.

48

So from the employer's perspective, I

approach a situation where there's a, a,

49

a woman on maternity leave or pregnancy.

50

So redundancy, which is what

we're going to talk about.

51

I was try and approach that from, a,

a perspective of kindness, of wanting

52

to be nice to somebody, even in a,

a difficult commercial situation.

53

I was reflecting on how to sort of

summarize where I come at these situations

54

from, from the employer's perspective.

55

And came up with this, um, a commercial

decision to reduce headcount may be

56

necessary, but the decision to be

clinical or cold about it is a choice.

57

You are not just making a role redundant,

you're interrupting a person's life at its

58

most vulnerable and transformative stage.

59

How you handle this will be the

only thing she remembers about

60

your company for the next 20 years.

61

I might come back to that when we

come to the end of our discussion,

62

but it's a useful little summary

about the things that HR should be.

63

Reflecting on and thinking about

maybe aiming for when they're

64

making those difficult decisions

and including women on maternity

65

leave in their redundancy exercises.

66

And as we talk, hopefully listeners

can reflect back on, on that thought

67

and, um, see how it, it feeds into the

kind of things that we're discussing.

68

June Hogan: And there's some really

powerful words in those reflections.

69

not least for, anyone who's experiencing

redundancy, it's an emotional time.

70

It's, it's a, a financial shock.

71

It's an emotional shock.

72

It's an interruption, as you

say, there, to,, a career, to,

73

to their whole life really.

74

It touches lots of different

elements, and women on maternity

75

leave have got that whole other.

76

Dimension that they're dealing with as

well, which naturally will be affecting

77

their emotions and how they respond and

react, ,. So when you think about the,

78

you've mentioned there that you work

from on both sides of the table, what

79

are some of the, the pitfalls that you've

noticed in supporting women on maternity

80

leave who are at risk of redundancy?

81

Clare Chappell: When supporting

individuals, it's a hugely vulnerable,

82

confusing, exhausting, hormonally driven

time, and they're facing loads of changes

83

and not just, if it's the, the first

child, each time there is a a difference,

84

each baby's difference, how much sleep

they're getting might be different.

85

And work can be the constant

in the background, even when

86

they're off on maternity leave.

87

They, they have the idea of work being

there, that they're going back to it.

88

They have that kind of plan in their head.

89

The variable, if you like, is, is the

maternity leave, is their experience

90

of being off on mat leave and what is

going on for them in those 20 minute

91

periods of time That, that you break

your day down into when you've got a

92

tiny baby and it, if the work situation

goes wrong, turns wobbly, gets confusing.

93

That is even more discombobulating.

94

Than it is if you are sitting at your desk

when it happens, you are away from work.

95

You don't know what's going on day to day.

96

You are not seeing those people

going in and outta meetings.

97

You are not necessarily

invited to all of the meetings.

98

You're not privy to all those

discussions by the coffee machine.

99

You are.

100

You don't know what you don't know.

101

And having that rug pulled out from

under you when you are at work is,

102

is confusing and stressful enough,

but when you are away from work

103

and in a completely different gear.

104

Because you have a massive gear

shift when you're on maternity leave.

105

You are just not in work.

106

You're quite rightly concentrating

a hundred percent on your baby, and

107

it's a very difficult change to flip

back into, if not impossible to go

108

back into that work mode and then

feel like for want of a better way

109

of putting it, that you feel like to

just, you need to defend your position.

110

And maybe try and avoid being made

redundant, what's going to happen?

111

All the uncertainty.

112

And it's very difficult to deal

with at that vulnerable time.

113

So that's really the main sort of

concerns from the employee's perspective

114

and from an employer's perspective.

115

It's about thinking about that,

being aware of that, and how can

116

we ameliorate the impact on the

women on maternity leave if she has

117

to be involved in a restructuring.

118

That's where I sort of

try and approach it from.

119

June Hogan: And, um,

interesting reflections.

120

It was some time ago now, , since I was

put at risk of redundancy on maternity

121

leave, but I can really resonate

with what you said there about, , not

122

being in the groove, not being in

work mode because you've checked out.

123

Of that

124

Clare Chappell: Hmm.

125

June Hogan: you went on maternity leave.

126

, And it does make you feel even more

vulnerable, as you say, because, , you're

127

having to flip your mind back into work.

128

, And, and those sorts of discussions

and those sorts of meetings, they

129

require, you know, your full attention.

130

, And it, it can be, yeah, it can

make you feel even more vulnerable.

131

So I think there's some really,

interesting reflections there.

132

And certainly I resonate

with a lot of what you said.

133

, So the, so the law has, has, has changed.

134

I mean.

135

and as you say, not everybody

who is , on maternity leave can

136

be put at risk of redundancy.

137

, Do you just wanna give us a

quick overview of the legislation

138

Clare Chappell: The basic summary

of it is, is you can still make a

139

woman on maternity leave redundant.

140

It doesn't prevent that all it did was

extend the period that she's protected

141

for, which, broadly speaking, runs from

the point that she's pregnant until

142

around about 18 months after the birth.

143

And broadly speaking, the

protection is just that.

144

If her position is redundant, then

she's entitled to be offered any

145

suitable alternative employment

that might be there elsewhere in

146

the business if it's suitable.

147

Doing air quotes that our listeners

can't see, obviously, , is something that

148

you need to look at in each situation.

149

I mean, you can get her job spec and a,

a job spec of an alternative role, match

150

them up and, and if they're pretty close,

it's probably going to be suitable.

151

But that's really the basic thing, is

she's entitled to be offered suitable

152

alternative employment, not just

given the chance to apply for it, not

153

just interviewed for it, offered it.

154

The only time when a competitive

process might be okay is if there are

155

two or more women on maternity leave

who that role might be suitable for.

156

And so they are in an equal

position, if you like.

157

That's the only time at which there

should be any competitiveness over

158

that suitable alternative role.

159

Otherwise, she is straight in there.

160

And that's a a rare example of positive

discrimination that does advantage

161

women on, on maternity leave if

there is that suitable role for them.

162

You don't have to create a suitable

role as as the business there.

163

There may well not be one.

164

There often isn't, but if there

is one, then she's entitled to be.

165

Put into it.

166

That's the main, the main

change from that legislation.

167

Um, so just to backtrack from that

point, it's really important to

168

have gone through that process and

organizing your reorganization before

169

you actually crack on and do it.

170

Things like what does the

current structure look like?

171

What does the new structure look like?

172

, Who's involved?

173

Are there any women on

maternity leave involved?

174

Put a big highlight around their name

because you know that as HR planning

175

the reorganization, you need to pay

attention to where they are now,

176

where they're going to be post reorg.

177

Think about the business rationale

for the reorganization for any

178

redundancies that result from it.

179

Get that really tight because any

employee solicitor is going to question

180

that business rationale, and I've seen

some very fluffy rationales that are

181

gobbledygook, frankly, that nobody

really understands what they mean.

182

You could run them through AI

and ai, still wouldn't know what

183

they're actually getting at.

184

So please be be very clear about the

business rationale because that is going

185

to be looked at down the line if there

are any questions over who's done what.

186

, Yes, there are additional risks

with making women on maternity leave

187

Redundant, but it's not impossible.

188

It's just another hurdle to jump

through and to make sure that you've

189

lined things up, to be prepared for

pushback, to be prepared for questions.

190

But being transparent probably gets you

quite a long way in these situations.

191

I think if you are kind, if you go

through a process which is kind,

192

that doesn't throw surprises into

the mix, that communicates well that.

193

Bears in mind that there are people

out on maternity leave that therefore

194

adjusts the process to take account of

that, pay them as a kit day for coming

195

in for a meeting and make sure that they

do get paid, that they don't have to

196

chase you for the payment down the line.

197

This is all about giving them a

positive memory, if not a happy memory,

198

because it's still a redundancy, right?

199

June Hogan: Mm

200

Clare Chappell: Give them a

positive memory of the experience

201

and that is going to change their

view of how they're being treated.

202

I would suggest.

203

June Hogan: mm And that when you

talk there about kind of going

204

back to the planning stages.

205

And understanding, yeah, who,

who's likely to be impacted?

206

. You mentioned before, in terms of the

18 months of protection, you might

207

have someone who's returned to work.

208

So, you know, making sure that your

systems are up to date and you've got

209

that ahead of time, and, and when you

mentioned there about kindness and

210

that ability to start the process.

211

With that intention as opposed to an

email firing in or hearing about it

212

on a WhatsApp group from a colleague

because nobody thought to, to let

213

you know, because you know, you're

not checking your work email anymore.

214

That kind of thing.

215

Um, that really helps to set things

off, off in as positive way as possible,

216

even if the outcome might not be that

the, that woman is retained within

217

the business because there isn't

anything suitable that she can do.

218

Clare Chappell: Yeah, I mean

that none of, none of this about

219

the process is, is to say that.

220

She automatically will remain with

the business after the reorganization.

221

As I said before, business needs

are what they are, and it is not

222

impossible to make somebody redundant

while they're on maternity leave.

223

That's, that's not what the rules are.

224

There's a another thought that I had

about at the outset of the process

225

where it's out outta sight, outta mind.

226

Right.

227

And so when you are looking at

that org chart at the beginning and

228

putting that big highlighted circle

round, the the woman's name who's on

229

maternity leave, HR should then be

ensuring that the manager doesn't.

230

Take the view that, oh, well, because

she's on mat leave and somebody else

231

is doing her job at the moment, that

that means that we don't need her going

232

forward, and therefore there's just

get rid of that bias that potentially

233

is there in the manager's mind that

because she's not there at the moment,

234

it's easier to remove her role from

the org chart as part of this process.

235

I think that's something that often

gets missed, and it's about managers

236

making sure that they are not just

merely trampling ahead with their

237

biases intact and not thinking about

how things work in normal times when

238

everybody is physically doing their job.

239

So that's, that's another

another point to, to make,

240

the other thing from a manager's

perspective, and as I said therefore

241

from hrs perspective, is the thought

that we should do it now while she's

242

off because then she can make a fresh

start after her maternity leave.

243

, I would say that, that, that assumption

is, is just as damaging to, to the

244

woman because that then jumps straight

to yes, you are definitely redundant,

245

is in the manager's mind and therefore

she's removed from that org chart and.

246

Definitely sends her through that

experience of dealing with a redundancy

247

while she's on maternity leave.

248

Is there an alternative timing,

perhaps even if we think that probably

249

her role is going to be get removed.

250

If it's just her role, can we maybe

at most say this is a possibility, but

251

we are not going to progress it until

after you're back from maternity leave.

252

So that we can properly review

your role as it stands then in six

253

or eight months time or whenever

she's back, should it be postponed?

254

Can we be thinking about perhaps

offering a non-standard settlement deal?

255

In that scenario, obviously her SMP has

statutory maternity pay, still has to be

256

paid, but is there something that we can

extend out of what we quote normally?

257

Offer on redundancies to take account

of the fact that she's not going to be

258

ready to look for another job until, let's

assume the end of her maternity period.

259

There are things that can be done to

soften the blow, in my view, and that

260

those are a couple of examples, but

I think that the idea of, of suddenly

261

being told by the way you are at risk

of redundancy without that soft landing,

262

whatever that looks like for the business.

263

That really exacerbates the difficulties

that that she'll have in changing

264

gear from being on maternity leave, to

suddenly having to front out to some

265

fairly serious conversations at work.

266

June Hogan: Absolutely.

267

And what you said there about, , having a

look at what flexibility there could be.

268

Certainly when we.

269

Support women on maternity

leave without placement.

270

I can pretty much guarantee that

they will all say, I'm not ready now.

271

Can I, can I, can I get in touch with you?

272

Towards the end of what would've

been the end of my matley, which,

273

and of course we're super flexible

because, you know, that that's what

274

we are all about as a business.

275

Because that, that

wasn't part of the plan.

276

They're, they're

277

Clare Chappell: Yeah,

278

June Hogan: old, three month

old, five month old, baby.

279

, They were planning to spend the

next X number of months with

280

them, , and not least of all

the fact that they wouldn't be.

281

In a, a place to go for interviews

and kind of do all of that

282

Clare Chappell: absolutely.

283

Absolutely.

284

They won't have childcare in place.

285

They might still be breastfeeding more

regularly than they were certainly

286

after baby's at six or eight months old.

287

There's all of these things that go into

the melting pot of what this experience

288

is like for the women on maternity leave.

289

And yeah, I mean the, the outplacement

points, , a lot of the time we'll see in

290

settlement agreements that outplacement

support has to be started within

291

three months of the termination date.

292

Well, that doesn't necessarily work

when you're on maternity leave.

293

Do we want to change the termination date

to push it back so that, that therefore

294

then buys those three months that way?

295

Or do you as a business want to

terminate because it's your end of

296

year and you want them off the payroll?

297

, And then do you give them a longer period

within which to start out placement?

298

I mean, I'm not saying which one

of those is the right answer.

299

It'll always be different depending on

the business, but those sort of things

300

should go through the thought process.

301

June Hogan: Absolutely.

302

Otherwise, either as an employer,

you are just paying for service

303

that the individual's not

gonna be engaging with, not

304

Clare Chappell: Yep.

305

June Hogan: getting the most out of.

306

And from an individual's perspective,

I think, well that that outplacement

307

was hopeless because I wasn't in

a place to really engage with it.

308

But I felt like I had to.

309

And it's another example, as

you've said at the start of

310

leaving those lasting impressions

311

Clare Chappell: Yeah.

312

June Hogan: did they really care about me?

313

Yes, they had to make difficult decisions,

but was this just transactional or

314

was it actually person centered?

315

Clare Chappell: Yes.

316

Yeah.

317

Is it about me or is it just about, I'm

a number on a page in a spreadsheet.

318

June Hogan: Mm.

319

Yeah.

320

Yeah.

321

Absolutely.

322

, So thinking about, , some of the kind

of, I guess, the myths that you think

323

employers have around women on maternity

leave you mentioned there about a.

324

Oh, well, you know, it'll be

easier for her if we do it

325

while she's on maternity leave.

326

And certainly, my experience in HR

and having, you know, worked with,

327

, stakeholders, this notion of, oh, well

they're planning to go on maternity

328

leave, so,, they, they probably won't be

interested in, you know, some of, some

329

of the alternative roles making these

assumptions and having that filter.

330

Are there any other myths that you come

across when you're working with employers?

331

Clare Chappell: Uh, well, there's,

there's that, and there's the broad myth

332

of, well, we can't make her redundant

because she's on maternity leave.

333

When you, you actually can,

as, as we've talked about,

334

June Hogan: Mm.

335

Clare Chappell: The, the myths I think

are really around things that when you are

336

working or when you don't have children,

and without wishing to sound patronizing

337

in any sense, 'cause that's not where

I'm coming from at all, but where, when

338

you are at work or haven't had maternity

leave yourself, it's very difficult to

339

imagine what it's like even when you

have had kids, one to however many.

340

If you've had more than one, you'll

know that they're all different.

341

And your experience of having a baby,

of the birth, of the first weeks

342

of the feeding and the sleeping and

everything, your experience is going

343

to be different to somebody else's.

344

And I think that fact is really important

for HR and for managers to remember,

345

and for HR to ensure that managers

understand because from that comes.

346

The business, we don't know how she is.

347

We don't know what kind of birth she had.

348

We dunno what kind of follow-up

care she needed, what kind of

349

care the baby might have needed.

350

How's feeding, how's

sleeping, hers and the babies?

351

, Therefore, how engaged is

she going to feel physically

352

able to be in this process?

353

We don't know any of that.

354

And because she's on maternity

leave, it's very difficult to demand

355

answers to those kind of questions.

356

How are you feeling?

357

Are you gonna be fit enough for us to

run you through a redundancy process?

358

I'm not sure that's a very

attractive, , question for HR to run.

359

I, I dunno how you'd feel about picking up

the phone to somebody on maternity leave

360

as, as HR and, and,, ask those questions.

361

June Hogan: That wouldn't be, it

wouldn't be a comfortable one.

362

And it leads me to thinking

about, , that notion of, , when

363

women go on maternity leave, how,

how do they want to keep in touch?

364

Not, not to keep in touch days.

365

But how do they want to

manage that communication?

366

And if you haven't got a plan or an

agreement, then as you quite rightly

367

say, it can feel awkward to get in touch.

368

'cause you just don't

know any of those things.

369

Clare Chappell: that's a really good point

370

June Hogan: yeah.

371

Clare Chappell: you as, as, as

the business, you can't insist

372

that you send a weekly email.

373

. She may have asked for updates on

anything major, but then actually

374

change her mind once she's on mat leave

and doesn't wanna hear anything or

375

doesn't open any emails and you don't

know if she's opened them necessarily.

376

You know, and you, there's all of

the, you, the, the main thing that

377

you know is that you don't know

what's going on for her right now.

378

And so it's hard to say, well, what

she said about commun communication

379

preferences before she went on

mat leave might not apply now.

380

You know, and so from that perspective

it's quite difficult to therefore

381

anticipate how anything is going to land.

382

Generally, I think I'd probably

suggest comms from her manager,

383

you know, a friendly WhatsApp.

384

Can we have a quick chat and a catch up?

385

To then transparently communicate what the

situation is, rather than an email from HR

386

saying, , we need to have a catch up about

a reorganization that we're planning.

387

Can you do this time?

388

You know, and it's things like giving her

alternative times and places and methods.

389

Ask her if she prefer a teams or

a phone call or a face-to-face

390

in a cafe near where she lives.

391

What's gonna work best

for her at this stage?

392

And that might change as maternity

leave goes on and routine changes and

393

confidence grows and all of those things.

394

June Hogan: Certainly from my

perspective to, to just come in,

395

have the meeting and leave again.

396

You don't want to come in and

everyone asks you, how's the baby?

397

How are you doing?

398

And, and all of that.

399

I remember walking through an open

plan office and I hadn't been in

400

since I'd gone on maternity leave.

401

It was awful.

402

Clare Chappell: Yeah.

403

June Hogan: They'd have just

said, well, where would you

404

like us to meet a cafe nearby?

405

All of these things now that you're

talking about them, I'm thinking these

406

small details that would've really made a

difference and I'm sure make a difference

407

to a lot of women who find themselves in

that situation, if they feel like someone,

408

as you say, is being kind and thoughtful.

409

, Clare Chappell: Yeah.

410

June Hogan: not just looking

down the list going, right.

411

Well, we need to see,, we need to

see Sheila at 10 o'clock on Monday,

412

so just book her in, you know?

413

Clare Chappell: Yeah, because

that, that might not work

414

June Hogan: No,

415

Clare Chappell: with childcare

and you know, so if you.

416

You ask her and you take a kind of

baby first, , line with it and say,

417

if you need to go and, , comfort the

baby because they're crying, or if you

418

need to feed them because they've woken

up a bit earlier than, than you were

419

expecting them to, that's all fine.

420

We'll pause will come back to it.

421

. I mean that many people

might say, do you know what?

422

I just, I'll, I'll carry on and you

know, you can't see on camera, and

423

then we'll just get on with it because

I'd rather get the meeting done.

424

You know, but that should be her decision,

425

June Hogan: Mm.

426

Clare Chappell: and the

employer shouldn't sort of push.

427

Either way I, for me, but no, I, I

completely can empathize with that

428

being, , told to come into the office,

in the middle of maternity leave and.

429

Not really being quite sure

what the outcome was going to

430

be and having to switch gear.

431

I mean, adrenaline must be the

rescuer, I think, at that stage,

432

which is, you know, healthy or not,

depending on your point of view about

433

it, I suppose, gets you through it.

434

But one thing,

435

June Hogan: Yeah.

436

, Clare Chappell: But yes, thoroughly

unpleasant and, you know, and, and

437

I speak as an employment lawyer,

438

June Hogan: Mm-hmm.

439

Clare Chappell: my day job.

440

And, and luckily I, I was able to get

my game face on and get on with it,

441

but, , yes, it, it was not fun at all.

442

And that's, and as I say, that's me

speaking as an employment lawyer this

443

is, this is what you do, you can do this.

444

And I was able to have that conversation

with myself quickly, and it was all fine.

445

June Hogan: Hmm.

446

Clare Chappell: Um, but that's

me as an employment lawyer.

447

That's not somebody who

doesn't do what I do

448

June Hogan: Yeah.

449

Clare Chappell: as a job.

450

June Hogan: could be their first

experience of redundancy, like you

451

said, their first baby, or even

452

Clare Chappell: Yeah.

453

June Hogan: or their third.

454

And all of these things are all variable.

455

, And are there any themes.

456

From the women that you support

that you would draw on in terms of

457

when employers get it really wrong?

458

I mean, is is there anything

there that, that keeps coming

459

up kind of time and time again?

460

I know you've given us some advice on

what employers should be doing to support

461

women in these situations, and as you

said, they can make women redundant.

462

It's not to say you can't, but

does anything come up for you

463

as a, as a recurring theme when

women come to you for support?

464

Clare Chappell: Oh, the, the

lack of communication and the

465

way that things are communicated.

466

So yeah, absolutely.

467

That is a major, major cause of upset.

468

, A lack of flexibility and understanding

in terms of availability for

469

meetings and, and where to meet

and when, and, you know, how long

470

is the meeting going to go on for?

471

Sticking to timeframes that you've given.

472

, You know, if you've booked a meeting

for 11 o'clock and she's basically got

473

until about 1145 before baby's gonna

start waking up from their nap, then

474

you have the meeting at 11 o'clock.

475

Maybe you have a buffer time between

meetings in that scenario so that you make

476

sure that you can hit her meeting slot.

477

She has set with you because that

fits into the current routine.

478

It's that consideration, communication.

479

But communication for me goes all

the way back to before somebody

480

even comes, becomes pregnant.

481

It's the policies, it's the how do we

treat people who go off and have babies?

482

How do we treat people when

they come back from maternity

483

leave and return to their job.

484

How do we treat people who want to work

more flexibly now they've got a baby.

485

How do we treat people when they

return from maternity leave?

486

Do we provide them with

return as coaching?

487

Are we a little bit more understanding

about them needing time off

488

whilst baby settles into nursery

and catches every germ going?

489

It's all of that piece that is

the atmosphere and the culture

490

that's created in somebody's mind

before they even get pregnant.

491

Then they're pregnant, then

they're off on maternity leave.

492

Then this is happening.

493

Their experience of this, of the

redundancy and the restructure is all

494

part and parcel and is informed by

that culture that's been instilled in

495

them from the business from way back

when, and they come at this with all of

496

that experience, positive or negative.

497

And I think that is what then feeds

into the responses and the reactions to

498

communication or lack of flexibility and

understanding over arranging meetings,

499

, expectations about just switching

gear into defending your job from.

500

Baby, baby signing classes.

501

You know, that's not, that's quite a

tangent and it, it's that understanding

502

and that communication and the empathy

and, you know, and understanding that

503

they don't know what they don't know

about where she is right now and how

504

to go about getting that information

for them to then run through the

505

process they need to run through.

506

Including deciding when they need to

run through that process with her.

507

That's, that's the real

trick in all of this.

508

And I don't have any sort

of magic solutions for how

509

HR have those conversations.

510

That's the sort of, I can talk to

the principles and then the how

511

do we deal with the impact of how

you've done all of this stuff.

512

June Hogan: And I love what you said

there in terms of holistic approach to

513

all of this and how that woman feels.

514

When she's on maternity leave, whether

she's at risk of redundancy or not, you

515

know, and therefore, if something like

this does happen because you know, you can

516

be on maternity leave for 12 months, you

know, in, some situations if that's what

517

you choose, a lot can change in 12 months.

518

Clare Chappell: Absolutely.

519

June Hogan: and so still feeling part

of the team of the organization still

520

feeling valued in whatever way that

works for her, is, is hugely important so

521

that if this kind of thing does happen.

522

as you say, it's not been nine months

since anyone spoke to her or had any kind

523

of, , had any, had any kind of contact.

524

, But what I've really enjoyed from our

conversation is the way that you've talked

525

about not having those assumptions and

not having that judgment and not looking

526

through your particular lens about

what it means to be on maternity leave,

527

whether , you are a father or a mother or

neither,, this is about this individual

528

and, and being curious about them and

how they're feeling in this situation.

529

I think that's hugely important

because then it all goes back

530

to, right, so now we know this.

531

How can we make this process fit

around her as opposed to making

532

her fit around our process?

533

'cause we've got four weeks to do

this in and you know, we need to

534

have three meetings and it needs

to all happen by the end of March.

535

Clare Chappell: Yeah, that, that's right.

536

And I mean from a, from a

financial cash flow perspective.

537

From from the business's perspective,

you know you're going to have to

538

pay any remaining SMP notice pay,

statutory redundancy, holiday pay.

539

If you're gonna offer settlement

agreements, you're going to offer

540

some compensation on top of that.

541

Is there an argument, and this is

a, a question for the employer,

542

is there an argument that you

should pause the reorganization

543

as it affects this individual and

come back to it after she's back?

544

From maternity leave because

you've got those costs anyway.

545

If you wait until after she's come back,

as you've said yourself in a period of

546

a year, if not less, things can change.

547

Is it better to park her redundancy

depending on the circumstances

548

and you know, if her role is being

removed or if she's been selected

549

in her absence from a group of, of x

number of, of employees, whichever.

550

Is there an argument to keep her there?

551

Keep it all on pause, deal with it.

552

After she's back, she's still protected,

but say six months after she's back.

553

If she's had a year, give or take

and, and deal with it, then when

554

you know she's back, you know what?

555

Flexible working arrangement

perhaps she's asked for.

556

'cause let's say, and I've

seen this happen, let's say you

557

have a reduced requirement for

somebody to do what she does.

558

She's working five days prior to

maternity leave, you only need

559

somebody for three actually.

560

She turns out to have been intending

to ask for a flexible working

561

arrangement of three days a week.

562

That means she can carry on doing

the job on the new three days a week.

563

No redundancy payout.

564

You've still got that

employee and guess what?

565

She thinks you are brilliant and

you've bought more loyalty by

566

waiting, seeing what flexible

working arrangements she wanted.

567

'cause you, you knew she was gonna ask

for one in the scenario I'm talking about

568

and you've been able to find something

that works for everybody, that's a win

569

for her and that's a win for the business.

570

June Hogan: Yeah, and what you described

there around retaining talent, which

571

as you mentioned earlier, often women

returning from maternity leave can

572

find that, you know, the environment

is different when they come back.

573

Even those, you know, those that come

back to the roles at which they're left

574

and having that support in place, but

that ability to retain the, the talent

575

that otherwise would've been lost.

576

That redundancy process, if, if

circumstances allow, as you say,

577

there's, there's lots of variables there.

578

and so in, in that sense, would you

approach that in terms of putting her

579

particular process on hold or depending

on the relationship that you had with her?

580

Would you, would you be open and

transparent about those conversations?

581

I guess depending on where

she is in her maternity leave

582

and all these other variables.

583

Clare Chappell: It, it, it would depend.

584

Sorry, that's a lawyer's answer.

585

Um, it would depend on

the relationship with her.

586

It depend on what that culture is that's

already been sort of created and built

587

up around her and across the business.

588

It would depend on.

589

Where she's in her maternity leave.

590

It would depend on the type of

redundancy that we're talking about.

591

Is it that she has a unique role and

it's that role that's being removed, in

592

which case it's a, a standalone issue.

593

Is she part of a team that's being cut

from 10 to six and she's one of the four?

594

I mean, that's a scenario where it's a

double-edged sword because on the one

595

hand I might say, well wait, because you

are scoring her while she's not around,

596

which is, you know, you are relying

on memory from six or eight months ago

597

from when she was last in the business.

598

Is that going to be safely objective?

599

Do we have any biases we

need to be mindful of there?

600

Plus then you've got six roles still

there and they're probably going to

601

be suitable alternative employment, so

therefore she should be plugged into them.

602

So it's risky not to plug

her into one of those roles.

603

There's a lot going on in either

of those redundancy scenarios.

604

That's why I say it depends, because

it's really hard to generalize

605

it's better to say it depends.

606

And there's enough, and there's always

going to be enough issues there to warrant

607

HR taking a very close look at it and

probably getting legal advice to look

608

at what's the best way to play this.

609

And of course, as I said before, the best

time to do that is before you actually

610

start having those consultation meetings

at the point of planning, working

611

out your business rationale and your

before and after organization chart.

612

That's the point at which to work all

of this out, not be suddenly floundering

613

middle of the process when somebody

says, , hang on a minute, I'm on

614

maternity leave and you're supposed to

give me one of those alternative roles,

615

June Hogan: Yeah.

616

Clare Chappell: you know, that's

the point at which I get the

617

panic phone call saying help.

618

Hmm.

619

June Hogan: And I guess, , in a, in an

ideal scenario, thinking about the support

620

that you provide for individuals who

might be listening to this, you know,

621

there, people listening to this who are

on maternity leave themselves, or more

622

likely HR professionals and leaders

listening to this, would you advise in

623

terms of how you can support and how best

to support a process in, in this way from

624

assuming we're, we're at the start now,

we haven't even kind of started things.

625

Clare Chappell: Well, that,

that was going to be my, my main

626

point was speak to me before.

627

You've jumped off the cliff and committed

to anything publicly in terms of the

628

plan, the reorganization, who's at

risk, what you're going to do, and let's

629

have a look at it and check for risks.

630

I mean, it's, it's not just

women on maternity leave.

631

It might be people with disabilities who

say you've got a return to office mandate

632

and there's a real going around that.

633

, But if you've got a disabled

individual, you need to think about

634

reasonable adjustments for them.

635

In terms of perhaps they continue to work

from home and you've got a whole policy

636

sort of scenario to deal with there.

637

So getting advice before you jump

off a cliff is always a good idea.

638

That would be the main thing.

639

And from there, everything else follows

because then we talk about the scenario.

640

We look at the process, we

look at where your risks are.

641

Are you prepared to manage

those risks, reduce those risks?

642

Are you prepared to take

those risks and go from there?

643

. June Hogan: And who's listening, how

can they get in contact with you?

644

How can they find out more about how you

could support people in this situation?

645

Clare Chappell: Okay, well, , they

can find me on the Carbon Law Partners

646

website, which is carbon law partners.com.

647

I'm also on LinkedIn quite a

lot, so you can find me on there.

648

I don't have an eye in my name.

649

Just for people listening, , that

probably helped find me.

650

, Claire and sh will have various

possibilities, don't they?

651

, And the way that I work, just to sort

of start things off, is I'll always

652

have an exploratory chat, sort of 15,

20 minutes, half an hour, whatever.

653

Is needed to, , find out more about the

situation, talk about how I can help,

654

and what the next steps are from there

to get a client onboarded and then

655

actually be able to start work for them.

656

So I guess the next step is get

in touch with me via the, the

657

website or via LinkedIn and we'll

arrange a time for a chat and then

658

we can take things from there.

659

June Hogan: Wonderful.

660

Well, I'll put all the,, links

in the show notes, so, so people

661

can access those quite easily.

662

, And Claire, I've.

663

Today, just really getting

into some of that detail.

664

And it, it's taken me back a few years

to, , when I was on the other side

665

of, of all of this, , and a lot of

what you said has really resonated.

666

That.

667

And it's, it's clear from your

experience that you've got a really

668

deep understanding in connection, , with

this, with this area in particular.

669

Clearly, you are an employment lawyer.

670

But this is something that I can

and tell and hear that you've

671

got a real passion for as well.

672

So thank you for sharing

all of that with us.

673

Clare Chappell: Oh,

that's really kind of you.

674

Thank you.

675

No, thank you for having me.

676

I've really enjoyed chatting to you.

677

Thank you so much for listening

to the Redundancy Matters podcast.

678

I hope you found today's episode helpful.

679

It would mean a lot to me if you

would follow rate and review this

680

podcast wherever you listen to your

podcasts, as this helps it reach more

681

people who are managing redundancies.

682

Let me know what you thought,

and if you have ideas for future

683

episodes, I'd love to hear from you.

684

You can find me on LinkedIn, June

Hogan, and get in touch via my

685

website, wildwood coaching.co.uk,

686

where you'll also find more resources

to help you manage redundancies.

687

I hope you'll join me again soon for

the next episode of Redundancy Matters.