Why are women quietly quitting their marriages?

In this episode, I’m joined by journalist Monica Corcoran Harel, author of the viral Cut article that sparked a national conversation, and Melissa Chataigne, one of the women featured in the piece who lived this experience firsthand.

We unpack what “quietly quitting” actually means — and what it doesn’t. Is it emotional self-preservation? Avoidance? A midlife reckoning? Or a sign that traditional marriage itself is evolving?

We talk about:

1. Why so many husbands feel blindsided
2. The role of invisible labor and midlife identity shifts
3. Financial power and protecting yourself
4. Desire, resentment, and time running out
5. Whether quiet quitting is reversible — or the beginning of the end

This isn’t about bashing men. It’s about naming what many women in midlife are experiencing but rarely say out loud.

If you’ve ever wondered whether you’re still in your marriage — or simply still in it on paper — this conversation will stay with you.

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They're afraid to go to therapy because they think it will end the relationship. If that's the case, it was meant to end.

What does quietly quitting mean when it comes to a romantic relationship?

Not engaging as much, Starting to take separate finances. You're kind of testing the waters of what it would look like to be on your own.

And my mom elbowing me at the table and saying, ask your dad for the salt, because she didn't even want to talk to him. And I know this sounds crazy and unbelievable, but my dad didn't even realize it.

If you choose to work on your marriage, then give it everything you have, because it's hard in these streets. Okay? It's hard in these streets.

Do you think we're on the precipice of, like, redefining really what marriage is?

Quietly quitting takes such a toll on women emotionally. To sustain that type of resentment would really compromise your health.

Those things are key. Movement, rough work, journaling a class that you love.

I spoke with one woman who said, I have three jobs. I'm a mom, I'm a full time nurse, and I have my divorce. Like, that's a job too that I'm working on.

I lost a lot in my divorce, and I feel like I'm starting again from scratch at middle age.

Today's episode is a little different, and honestly, one of the most important conversations we've had on this show. A few weeks ago, an article went wildly viral in the cut with a headline that stopped a lot of women in their tracks.

Why women are quietly quitting their husbands. Not divorcing, not cheating, not blowing up their lives, just emotionally checking out.

The piece struck a nerve because it named something many women have been living for decades, especially in midlife, but never had language for the slow detachment, the invisible labor, the moment you realize you're still married but no longer really in the marriage. Before we dive in, if this is your first time here, welcome to the iconic midlife.

This is where smart, curious women over 40 come for unfiltered conversations about reinvention, identity, power, and everything.

We're not supposed to talk out loud, and if this is the kind of conversation that resonates with you, take a second right now to follow the show on your favorite podcast app. It makes a huge difference in helping more women find these conversations.

Today I'm joined by the woman who wrote that article, author and journalist Melissa Corcoran Harrell, whose reporting weaves together her own family history with dozens of women navigating this exact reckoning. And by Melissa Chitayne, one of the women featured in the piece.

A style influencer and on air fashion correspondent who actually lived this experience and came out the other side. This is not a conversation about bashing men. It's not about telling women to leave and it's definitely not about tidy answers.

It's about power, time, desire, money, identity, and what happens when women in midlife finally stop negotiating against themselves. Monica, Melissa, welcome to the iconic midlife.

I have to say, as a journalist, when I interview someone, I usually have my phone.

I have a little recorder.

And I was interviewing Philip Lim, you know that fashion designer, like 3.1 Philip Lem.

Oh, yeah.

So it was like at the very beginning I was still kind of green and I went in there and it was like a one on one with him in his store. Store. And I was interviewing him and, you know, asking the questions. I left the store and I had forgotten to push record. So I raced home.

This is like without a camera or anything. I had like one of those little voice recorders.

Raced home and immediately just tried to do a brain dump of like whatever I could remember like into a document.

You know, I literally did the same thing. It's the worst.

Yes, the worst. And I was sweating and I was like, you know, tears were coming out. I'm like, oh my God.

Oh my God.

I cannot like forget.

Yeah.

Although I did the same thing. I did it with Steve Madden though. So I think we're in the same.

Oh, you're kidding.

So I feel you, girl. It's stressful.

Yes, yes, absolutely. And perimenopause on top of it. I'm like, like, I don't.

Or. Or when you go to a restaurant and it's really loud. I just interviewed Halle Berry. We met somewhere and it was so loud there we were right by.

First we moved and then we were by sort of a bar area and they just happened to be cleaning the cappuccino machine. So it was like. And all I could think of was like sending it to a transcriber and getting nothing back. We moved three times in this place.

Finally found a quiet nook. But I mean, it is terrifying when you think you won't. You never want to misquote someone, especially nowadays and.

Oh yeah.

Oh my God, absolutely. And that, you know, when you're moving too in the middle of an interview.

It sort of like throws off the energy for A minute, you know, you're like, okay, hold that thought. We're gonna get up. We're gonna move here, you know, like, totally. I know. I. I feel you. How was Ms. Halle Berry, though? Monica?

This is. This should come out in New York Magazine maybe next week even. I might be obsessed with Halle Berry. I always admired her as an actress.

I always liked her. But we had such a great, candid conversation. She's incredibly honest.

She's able to translate how she feels emotionally into words, which I think is a real skill. And not a lot of actors have it, I think, because you're reading other people's words. She's just. And really thoughtful.

Just really smart and cool and all the things. And such an activist for women our age. Such a menopause activist.

Now, listen, I think you're a little younger, but, like, you know, she called out Gavin Newsom and, wow. Not for not supporting the Menopause Care Equity Act. And that made big news. And she said, look, I mean, she said this publicly.

If you want to run for president, you better take care of women. We're half the population. And it was all over the news. This was maybe a month ago. And then I just did follow up with her.

And he said, like, oh, I'm going to reconcile this with Hallie. And I said, have you heard from his office?

And she said, no.

Interesting.

That is really interesting.

Very interesting.

Yes.

And I'm so.

I'm so glad that she is one of the public figures that actually puts her money, you know, where her mouth is, like, really stands up for it, like you're saying, and is, you know, not afraid to show on social media, you know, all the sides of what perimenopause and menopause can look like, you know, because it is. It is one of those things where it changes, like, dayto day.

You know, I think being in this midlife space, you know, it opens your mind to a lot of different things, right?

Like, not only is your body changing, and we're sort of going through that, like, that side of, like, the physicality and the biology and all that kind of stuff, but people are rethinking their relationships, you know, rethinking friendships, relationships, and kind of, you know, really trying to calibrate, recalibrate, you know, their lives in that way. Which is, I think, one of the most interesting parts of this whole midlife thing.

And which is why, like, I'm so excited you guys are joining today on the Iconic Midlife. Because I think that you guys have really tapped into something and we'll get more into it, but just to kind of give everyone background.

Monica, you know, you're an author. You're a journalist. You wrote this amazing, amazing piece for the Cut, which ended up going totally viral.

And it was an article about why women in midlife are quietly quitting their husbands. Which I can't say that, like, you know, I mean, I'm sure that that has gone through the minds of many a woman at this stage in life.

And, Melissa, you were one of Monica's subjects in the article who actually did quietly quit her husband.

So, I mean, this episode is going to be so freaking juicy because, I mean, again, I think it is something that, like, we're not really talking about fully, but this article has really, you know, changed the way that people are opening up about the. This thing, you know? So first off, Monica, like, when you were writing this article, did you, like, think, oh, my God, this is going to go viral.

This is going to be, like, huge. Like, were you prepared for that?

I. Well, when my editor reached out to me, we were on a phone call. My editor at the Cut said, we have an upcoming issue about women in divorce.

Do you have any ideas? Maybe, you know, how do women prepare for it? What are women doing in the aftermath?

And I whispered to her, what about women who are getting divorced but not. And she said to me, we were on the phone, what are you talking about?

And I said, I think there's something happening where people are living divorced, but not necessarily going through the act. And it was a bit of a hunch, just based on, you know, conversations I've had with women.

Stories I'd read, um, hearing people talk, hearing women talk about feeling disengaged from their husbands or their partners. Um, so when I started working on it and reporting and finding people to talk to, like Melissa, I thought, this story is going to make an impact.

I didn't realize that it would end up Japan and India, in Australia, like, I knew it would make a dent, particularly in CITIES in the U.S. i think, where women are maybe more inclined to divorce. But I did not think it would have such a global impact.

And it truly did. I mean, it truly did. It came out, you know, several weeks ago, but people are still talking about it.

And, I mean, as soon as I let my friend group know that I was having the two of you on, they were like, oh, my God, we cannot wait to hear more about this episode.

So before we totally go into it, I just want to, like, kind of, for everyone listening, kind of definitely define what that term means what does quietly quitting mean when it comes to a romantic relationship versus let's say like just a full on divorce or separation?

Well, speaking from someone who's been through it, it's really looking at your life realizing that things are not. Your marriage isn't working the way it should.

Maybe you've made an effort to reconcile differences that you not, you're not feeling loved, supported, financially, emotionally, whatever that being is. And then you realize there's no resolution.

I think for me it came pretty much it came a while before, but towards the end it was really just, it was the end.

But it's this, it's the slight distance, it's the always taking into events and slightly pulling away and not engaging as much and starting to keep separate finances and starting to do a lot of the things that, that you're kind of testing the waters of what it would look like to be on your own. And for me that was the biggest hot button that I realized I was quietly quitting.

And when, you know, Monica posted about this article that she was looking for women, that's so me because I really did that. And you know, for those listening, it's not ideal, it's not something that we all would want to be.

I trust me, I would have loved to have had a different outcome. But it's choosing yourself and no longer living in a unbalanced, unloved relationship.

And that's for me it was, that was the deciding factor when I started to pull away. And that is the start of quietly quitting in whatever capacity that is for the partner.

And when I think about other marriages, truly, I look at my grandparents that came to this country, they were Haitian immigrants.

And I learned that they were basically in a quiet divorce like for a long time they, they were separated, technically not divorced, but he had his own life, my grandma had her own life. And they were basically quietly quit. And that is something for being Catholic and that it's not, it's highly frowned upon for divorce.

They didn't want to get divorced that era, they had eight children. So basically it was like they quietly quit their marriage.

So this is not something, this is why the article hit to all these other countries because culturally it may not be, I may be frowned upon to have a divorce, but it's already happening within the home.

That's so true. I just want to chime in and say that my parents, you know, my mom did not talk to my dad for an entire year, which I mentioned in the article.

And I remember being a kid and my mom elbowing me at the table and saying, ask your dad for the salt, because she didn't even want to talk to him. And I know this sounds crazy and unbelievable, but my dad didn't even realize it. And that speaks to how disengaged men are.

But a lot of women did ask me, what does that mean, quietly quitting?

And I think that if you just take the analogy that's used when you talk about quietly quitting your job, you know, you start stealing staplers, right? You see, you get in late, maybe you have a hangover, you know, you get. You arrive late to the meeting or you don't prepare, prepare for it.

And I think in marriages, which are work too, you know, you stop listening when your, your partner calls to you. You maybe don't come as quickly as you used to, or you don't even think about your productivity or your reciprocity in a relationship.

So it is just like a job. And I think stealing the stapler is like starting to look at your finances as.

Okay, I'm going to squirrel this aside because I don't know that I want to be in this for long term and I want to make sure I have my own assets.

Yeah, no, it's. It's a great point you got.

Actually, both of you bring up about the generational cycle of this, because whether there was like a term for it, you know, 50 years ago or not, it was happening, you know, back then.

And maybe women at that time didn't have, you know, maybe the finances or maybe, you know, like it was cultural, it was religious, like different reasons why they might have just stayed in it. But why do you think now it's become even so much more accepted to do it, you know, to really kind of figure this out.

Well, when you say accepted as it's not frowned upon or is this.

It's more seen that people have different lives because we can look at it from quietly quitting and then seeing the rise of married men on dating apps that are in these poly open relationship marriages. So that could be a sector of it.

I think after the pandemic, after women were living in the house with their partners, realizing how much work they were doing, not having ability to have personal space, still having to have these traditional marriage roles of cooking, cleaning, taking care of the kids, thankfully, just speaking from, I do not have children. I just have the best on endeavor.

But realizing that you're doing all this and that your partner is, is still not holding up his end of what you wanted your relationship to be or what you guys originally agreed up. Then it's like, wait, what are we doing after pizza? It's kind of like, why am I going to sit here in this mess now? I have to say, the relationship.

The problems in my relationship started way before pandemic. And during that time, we. We were not. I mean, we were. Let's say, okay, we were working through things, but.

But I feel like it's more steppable now because we realize how short life is, how things are so fickle, and how we don't. How we. People are getting sick. And I mean, so many women our age are. Are getting breast cancer and dying before they turn 40.

You don't want to stay in shit, and I swear I'm here. You just don't want to stay in an uncomfortable situation and be miserable.

And so it's dipping the toe into seeing what would life look like outside of that partnership and trying it out. As we know, most women are the ones who file for divorce. As Monica said, her father didn't even realize he was getting quietly clit on.

And so women, you know, withdraw emotion, start to put on their own gas mask in the best way they can. And I guess that's more acceptable choosing you, if that's the reality of it.

I think there's a huge factor, which is that midlife has changed for women. Midlife is no longer an ending. In fact, there is this current of empowerment around midlife right now.

I mean, women have really come together when it comes to health issues like menopause and breast cancer and careers and supporting each other, but realizing that, you know, turning 40 or 50 is not the end of your life. For a lot of women, it's the beginning. And I do think that. And I'm working on a book about midlife marriage right now.

So I've been doing some really deep dives. But I do think that for a lot of women who are quietly quitting and maybe not exiting, part of it is they're going through this renaissance.

They're evolving, they're pivoting in their lives, and their husbands are pretty stagnant. Right? Maybe they're not evolving in any way, so therefore the relationship's not growing the way they are.

And some of these women, I know this sounds sad, but they don't even really have the time to wrap their mind around the idea of getting divorced. Divorce devours a lot of time, energy, and money, and you might be taking care of your kids and also your parents as well.

We're the sandwich generation, so a lot of Us have kids and then we're caretakers to parents. I mean, can you just imagine how many jobs you're juggling and now you're going to try and get a divorce?

On top of that, I spoke with one woman who said, I have three jobs. I'm a mom, I'm a full time nurse in an er, and I have my divorce. Like that's a job too, that I'm working on. Eventually that'll be done.

But I just want to point out that it is a huge undertaking. You're already overwhelmed in life.

I also, I also realize that some women don't want to make the leap because it's not easy starting over. I myself have, I lost a lot of my divorce and I feel like I'm starting again from scratch at middle age.

And it's difficult to do that and it's been a rough couple of years, but I realize I'm glad. No regrets. Absolutely no regrets.

But I understand why women will quietly quit and stay in the marriage because it is so different, especially in the state of California, most expensive state, to be a single person. Let's face it, it's not easy. Single person with kids, single person taking care of a loved one. It's difficult.

So this is why I understand it a bit more by quitting and stay.

Yeah, let's talk a little bit more about the financial aspect because I think, Melissa, you were pretty honest in the article saying that, you know, that is like an area that you wish, you know, you had kind of had more of a, a hold on, you know, during this process.

So can you just give the, the listeners just a little background like from that angle, from the financial side and also the advice that you would give another woman who's possibly going through this.

Yes, for our relationship, there are highs and lows for him, but it was an exception or expectation that I would handle a lot of things financially. And he was unemployed for quite some time, kind of figuring out his life, wanting to be an actor, wanting to do insurance.

And where it all fell on was me with my television work. And I always was like, well, I have to take care of us.

So looking back, I wish I didn't sacrifice so much of myself for him and really would have put my own gas mask, air mask on before and preparing for the divorce. Things that you don't realize. That clock stops the moment you file, but you have to get your ducks in a row.

And if I would do it again, I would have saved so much more money, put cash on the side, because these Are things that you need and that no one tells you when you're going through a divorce, how essential it is to have money for a new place, money for mediation, seeing attorney, all of these little things that, that you end up realizing how much it's on you. And when you are primarily the breadwinner, they will come for you. As much as you think it might be a lovely relationship, they will come for you.

And I found myself looking at my fans as being like, wow, I didn't realize how trusting I was and how much I was taken advantage of. And if I could have done it again and prepared myself better, I would might have had a nicer landing pad before I jumped.

I want to just say, Roxy, I heard that echoed by quite a few of the women I interviewed that they were pulling the weight financially in their relationships. Not all of them, but Melissa, thank you, by the way, for being so honest about your situation and talking about finances.

That was such an important part of the article. But I heard a lot of women talk about being the breadwinner really isn't that interesting.

So that was one of the reasons that kind of held them back from just going all the way with it.

Well, in some cases they would lose the money that they made.

Yeah, I mean, I lost all of my retirement. So what, like looking at it, it's, I'm basically starting from scratch at 40, 43.

So it's definitely, it's a different feel and that's, it's a challenging thing.

You know, I had another girlfriend of mine that recently filed for divorce and her and her husband had an agreement that they would, they would work it out. Well, then he lost his job before she filed. He's going to come for your money.

He's going to come for half now because she was the significant breadwinner and what happens that. Exactly. So seeing someone, if anyone, takes away one thing from this conversation.

See a real estate attorney, have things put in a trust, have your will written clearly if you are, if you are married, you have a daughter, you want a divorce. What happens if you get stuck? What happens if you pass away?

Having those things in order before you get divorced is the best advice I can give anyone.

Oh my gosh. And probably have a prenup too, I would imagine.

No, prenups and postnups really don't do that much. There's a lot of wiggle room within prenup and postnup. But putting things in a will and a trust, that's lock clad. That is the way to go.

That's the way to go. And so you guys, honestly, when I was reading the article too just.

And from, you know, your mother's personal experience, Monica, as well as yours, Melissa, like hearing that same. So many of these men didn't even realize that they were being quietly quit on was shocking to me.

I'm like, like in your mom's case, Monica, like not talking to somebody for a year or you know, in the cases of the other women in the article, how do these men not notice a change or notice a difference? I mean, Melissa, with you, did your husband pick up on these things?

He did mention to me that there was, I mean, obviously being a Los Angeles, going to a lot of events, he usually used to be my plus one. And I completely cut him out because I didn't want to be around him and I invited other girlfriends to go and I just, I didn't want him around.

And I told about. I did make it an article but because she obviously this article is so good and there's a lot of meat to put in there.

But for me, the aha moment, which I think he realized too was I hosted a retreat for women, a style retreat, which I do yearly in Paris and I didn't want him there and it was my birthday and he called me multiple times and I didn't want to talk to him. Now it's my birthday and I'm walking the streets of Paris and I'm ignoring him. Sorry, busy, can't talk.

I end up spending my day with the 80 year old woman and becoming like BFFs with her. A random woman I met at a cafe over my own husband. If that's not an aha moment, which I think it was for the both of us, I don't know.

That's an epiphany.

That's totally. Was that. Was that the point was that like in your mind was that the.

I was walking around the streets of Paris. I said that was the day that the ladies had a free day. And I was like, I don't want to talk to him. I don't.

It's my birthday and I have no interest in talking to him. I want silence. I don't want to deal with him. I don't want to hear the bullshit, I don't want to hear the excuses. I just want peace. And that was that.

Wow. So what was the thing that Made you file. Like, was there something that happened, an event, a realization?

Like, what was the thing that finally, you know, from the quiet quitting to, like, now we're getting divorced.

I feel like there was a bit more aggravation from him. Verbal abuse, talking down to me, calling me names. The intimacy was so dead.

Like, we weren't really intimate for a long time, but we were intimate a little bit before. This time for the last time around our anniversary. And then he was so rude. And then there was another. I can't pay bills this month.

You have to take it. And I just turned around. I was like, I am done.

And I.

It was like. It was that moment. I just remember it was like a Friday. And the Monday morning, I called the mediator. I said, I'm ready.

And I talked to her before for months. But it was like that realization that I'm not respected, I'm not loved. I feel like all of this is on my shoulder.

If I get sick and drop dead, you're not going to do anything. You're not going to take care of me. And I just. I couldn't take it anymore. I just had enough. And that.

I think that's a lot of times with women, there's that catalyst. And I was just like. And the sex was so horrible at that point. I mean, it just is like, I'm out.

Yeah, when you're done, you're done, you're done.

And I did not look back.

Monica, do you find that that is the same with, like, some of the other women that you had in the article, that they just reach a point where, like, that was it and then done is done?

Well, Melissa was one of the women that left. And I spoke with women that were still in the thick of it. But I'm really intrigued by what men are thinking.

And I did see speak with some men, and I spoke with some men who offer support to other men. And they really burrowed into the mind of the married man. Like, why don't they pick up on this? And it's so interesting.

A lot of therapists were telling me that men don't react to words, they react to action. So women would say, you know what? I'm not feeling affectionate towards you, or, you're not listening to me. My needs aren't being met.

Why can't you fucking put out the trash? Why can't you do what you said you were going to do?

And men will hear, la, la, la, la, la, la, la.

Okay, maybe I'll do that. And then a woman says, oh, that's my suitcase. I'm leaving. Or that's your suitcase and you're leaving. And action.

All of a sudden, the man who heard like the Charlie Brown teacher, womp, womp, womp, womp, womp, he was like, it's over because he sees the action. I thought that was fascinating. It really speaks to the way men and women. But these men didn't really react until it was go time.

Isn't that interesting? Because that really does. Does say something.

You know, I do notice, just in general, women, when we get together, we love to talk to each other, right. It's like talk about our problems, talk about the good things, talk about the bad things, you know?

And I notice with men, it usually is an activity centered thing. When they get together, they're like going to watch football or they're, you know, going whatever, riding bikes or motorcycles or whatever.

It is like, it's usually activity centered. And it's not so much like the talking like it is for women. So that completely makes sense to me.

Or would you say to your husband, oh, I heard that, like, you know, Marley and Tim broke up. What happened? He's like, I don't know. I guess they're just getting separate places. And he says to you, what happened with Marley and Tim?

I'm like, okay, so three months ago they had this issue. It's like, it's just like you're in two. You're on two completely different planets. Yes.

It's like the detail.

Yeah. And then our. I don't want to generalize, but I'm going to generalize. Men are typically resistant to change.

And I think that ties into this whole idea of women evolving in midlife and wanting to keep. Grow and expand and men just feeling like, I want to. I want to keep it all cool. Like, I want to stay plateaued.

I don't want to go down, but I don't necessarily need to go up. I'll just straight line, flatline here.

Yeah, they don't. It's almost like the introspection isn't there because that forces them to do the work right.

Like if they have to recalibrate and reevaluate and like, if, you know, the partners kind of changing and doing whatever, it's like, then that forces them to look within, which a lot of times maybe they don't want to do.

I a thousand percent agree with you because I still think, I don't know how it is now, but my existence was like, oh, because I don't make enough money like that. That's not why I'm divorcing you.

Yeah, exactly. You're like, don't blame it on the money.

And that's the thing. And I am looking back and doing the work. I realized that I fell in love with potential and all the things that you think.

Like there's so many aha moments and red flags that I let slide because I was so Google eyes. Loved that I didn't think. And this is no fault of him.

This is me owning my ish so I can be the better partner, the best partner in my next relationship. But there are a lot of things that I realize I ignored or there are needs that, that no longer aligned.

And I've definitely done the work to take accountability. And I honestly believe I know my relationship type. I'm an avoidant. So it kind of came naturally for me to be silently quitting.

But working within that and learning from that allows better clarity and more accountability for when I'm a partner again.

You know, I think that there's. It's so important to bring that up because I do think this is a shared kind of thing with a lot of women. Really is.

You almost fall in love with like what you imagine that man to be like the future self that you imagine him to be, but that it is not the reality, you know, it's not the reality.

So I think, I think it is important, like you're saying, to take accountability for that because you know, where, where that side of the issue lies, you know, and it's not necessarily their fault that they're not living up to your perception of what they should be at some point. Right? I mean, exactly. But it's hard, you know, you want them to realize their full potential and maybe they don't, but because there's so.

Many other variables like this, just one tiny bit of this bigger picture in.

Defense of men and women. Like, we were never meant to be married for 50 or 60 years. I mean, when marriage came about, we lived to like 30 or 40.

Um, so you weren't married for that long. You may have gotten married at 15, but you were not married for more than maybe 15, tops 20 years.

And now people who are getting married and living to 80, you know, marriages go through phases now. Marriages have a midlife, marriages, marriages need to be re examined. I think it is a job.

And you have to look at it that way and say to yourself, what do I bring to this job? What's my idea of productivity? What is accountability?

And have that discussion with your partner, you know, like, if you didn't if you worked autonomously with no supervision whatsoever. Good luck. I mean, we need connection and we need people to outline their expectations for us.

And I don't think we really do that in marriage because we're not taught to do that. You know, we're. There's so much emphasis put it on getting married.

And I even think the idea that we go on a honeymoon right after we get married, we should go on a honeymoon after a year because most marriages end in divorce within the first year.

So that honeymoon should be like, we made one year, let's go on a trip, you know, And I think it just needs to be redefined and really look at like what is marriage and what do we bring to it and what do we want out of it together and separately?

I agree.

I also revisit marriage, the fact that I don't necessarily know if I want to be married again, but I definitely know that I want a long term partner again because marriage is a financial business decision. And if you cannot bring the best to my business and that affects my life, then what are we doing?

I'm happy to take a lava and have a nice little lava that's consistent. And we go to Paris, we go travel, we do our things and whatever. I mean, like, we have our separate places, you know, like two, three nights a week.

I am pounded like I should be. But I also have a totally, yes.

We love getting pounded.

It was originally a business decision.

Marriage came about, you know, thousands of years ago so that men could be sure that their children were theirs and that you could, you know, combine your assets. And so it was, it was strictly a business decision. It was not about love back in the day. That's where I think it hasn't led us astray.

I do believe in love, but I do think we forget about the practicality of it and just that it is a business. We've created a little enterprise to people.

Well, that's one of the things that was like going through my mind as I was reading the article.

I'm like, will this phenomenon, you know, the quietly quitting, will that make people sort of recalibrate the idea of marriage or like rethink the idea of marriage even? Is it even worth it to get married?

So do you think that we're just like kind of with this becoming more talked about, do you think we're on the precipice of like redefining really what marriage is or even if it's necessary?

Well, that's what my business about, because I want to Stay married if I can. I've been married now, I'll be married 20 years this year.

But a lot of people are already, thank you, redefining marriage, whether it's living apart but staying married, whether it's opening up your relationship, whether it's having kids without getting married. I mean the statistics are showing that people are really changing the game. It's just that it's happening in little factions, but it's growing.

And in, in my book, as I do research, I really do want to examine how we can tweak marriage to work for us, whether it's as a couple or as an institution. And I want to bring up there's this idea of contracts and as I said, marriage was originally like a contractual agreement.

And some people are talking about having a contract whereby you get married for let's say three years. And after three years you revisit and you look at the contract like you would at a job and say do I want to renew?

There were two women in Maryland back in the 70s, weirdly enough, who tried to pass a bill that marriage would be contractual. And they floated the idea of a three year or five year marriage and it got vetoed.

But it's so interesting that in the 70s they were thinking why is this so long term? And it doesn't benefit women.

I love that point. I think that's really important to consider. What is the benefit and what does it bring to your life now as single income, no kids.

I have a full life and I my goal now going through this, I mean I began my career just really talking first it was in healthcare for a long time. But the really bread and butter how people know me is doing makeovers and style and all this.

But it's really important to fix the inner before you fix the outer. And women that are going to transition need to find a love for themselves again and really think about is this beneficial for me.

So it's not like I'm not saying that anti marriage, but I want to make sure that that is the icing of my cake, not my whole cake. And I'm no longer willing to sacrifice parts of myself for another person. Especially if I'm not going to have kids.

Especially if you're not bringing anything to the table. What's the point? And that was one of the biggest moments for me. And I'll tell this quick story. I, I my mom died from triple negative breast cancer.

I had a lump in my breast right after a year after she died. Terrifying. And the year before I wasn't 40 yet, and I end up paying for ultrasound. I was fine, but it was the change. Disease. Disease brings disease.

And this was when I'm starting to see the fracturing of my relationship. So I went from having no issues in my breast to a lump in my breast that I needed removed.

And when I had to explain it, we had to talk about insurance and, you know, how it was going to be, how we're going to pay the co. Pay. And it was like, well, I don't have any money. I don't know. And those are those little seeds for me that was like, what do you mean, you don't know?

Like, it became just my problem. And I said, if this is all my problem, why do I have a partner to navigate this list. And those.

Those are those little things that I wish women would pay more attention to. As, in a relationship, it's not about the house or the money or the events or the vacations. It's the. The basic necessity. Necessity to survive.

And are you with me? And are we going to be navigating this together? And if that is not there as a true partnership, there is no marriage.

And it doesn't matter about the contract. It's just. Doesn't matter.

There's not a doubt that I know that he loved me, but it was just like he couldn't deal with the responsibilities of having something not go easily. Like, this is. This is real talk. This is. Things are not going to be easy. It's not going to be, you know, blessings. 20 years, Monica.

It's not just easy for you guys. I'm sure you have your. Your obstacles.

Oh, I quietly quit all the time.

Totally. An hour here, a two hours there, a day here.

Sorry, I didn't hear you. No, no, I didn't hear you calling for me. So.

And those are the moments that were like, okay, this is why I'm pulling away. This is how I'm quietly quitting. So I think it's more or less like redefining what partnership is for, for women and making sure that aligns.

Because I've actually talked to many women now, and a lot of clients that I've worked with that are not interested in dating at all. They are. They're not on the dating apps. They're not. They're not having fun. They're not.

They're choosing celibacy because there's so much work to deal with that. And that's unfortunate that we've gotten to that point that we don't want to deal with it. But that's Definitely a change.

It's not only will I get married again, it's like, actually I'm giving up men altogether. I'm not. I'm just saying a lot of women are.

That bears out statistically.

There was a recent study and women over 50 who had gotten out of marriages or long term relationships said, I'm not interested in being in another relationship. That's not to say I don't want to date. I just don't want to be in your conventional long term relationship. Monogamous, you know, moving towards.

Are we moving in together, getting closer, just keeping it more like parallel play so I can continue my life and go off on a trip with my girlfriends and do what I want to do and not feel like everything is based on this connection with like, you.

Know, the cycles of marriage, like we were saying. And like, you know, just a wear and tear and things changing.

How do you know if you're like consciously, quietly quitting your partner or if it's just, you know, hey, I might need a break here, a break there.

You know, we like if people sleep in separate bedrooms, let's say, because that's actually a big thing now, is this sleep divorce is what they're calling it. Right.

And it's not necessarily that you have problems with your partner, but you just want a good night's sleep, you know, and maybe you can't get it if that person is, you know, sleeping in bed with you. Maybe it's too hot, maybe they move around too much, whatever it is. But like, how do you know if you're quietly quitting somebody?

Well, I think it's really that decision that I'm choosing the opposite of what I normally would do and then moving, moving with it, sleeping in separate beds. You have to do what you have to do.

It's when the communication stops, when you don't want to explain your reason why that you want to go to an event, not with your partner, when you choose to go on trips without your partner, when you travel without your partner. I, when I didn't realize how conscious I was of it until I was interviewed by Monica, because she made me think.

And when I thought back, I said, there's so many more times that I quietly quit. And I didn't know it.

But it's really when you withdraw from being that romantic, loved up, you know, how you were the way we were versus the way we are now. And if you're choosing the way we are now, that's when you know you're quietly quitting.

And I would Add to that, all of the women that I spoke to, including you, Melissa, started quietly quitting after trying to strengthen a relationship. So listen, it's like when you're at a job again and you either ask for a raise or you want more responsibility and you're ignored.

Then you start to quietly quit. You feel resentful. You don't want to put the effort in.

And all the women that I spoke to, it wasn't like she woke up one morning and thought, you know what? I've been doing all the work in this relationship.

She had appealed to her husband and said, hey, I need help with this, or I don't feel like you're thoughtful about that, or we're not talking the way we need to as a team. So the quietly quitting follows typically trying. And then you're so frustrated that you realize, why say anything? You're not being heard.

So that's where you're quietly quitting. Because you used your voice and it's been ignored. So it's difficult, gradual. It doesn't start at quietly quitting. It moves into that phase.

That's interesting. So it's kind of like baby steps into it. It's a very slow. It's a slower process. It's not like.

Like, for example, with you, Melissa, one day you weren't like, okay, I'm going to quietly quit now. It was like a very gradual process. Right.

All those little things that happened that. That added up. It was like a little pin picking me, picking up my skin, and it's just like, I don't want to deal with it anymore.

Yeah, I definitely thought about that, that it started slower, but it. It's just like the example that I gave. There's so many other little examples where I didn't Felt.

Feel supported and I didn't feel seen and I was hurt and I tried to approach obstacles, and they just were brushed aside. Well, then I'm going to figure it out myself.

So I think anyone who's going through that, the number one thing I would say is give yourself grace and journal and write about it so you can see clearly. And then if you choose to work on your marriage, then give it everything you have, because it's. It's hard in these streets. Okay.

It's hard in these streets. But if you're gonna. If you're gonna choose yourself.

Yeah.

Choose yourself. Take care of yourself and try things out. I think the people in this mentality that we have to stay in the same place and do what we have to do.

And I. I Find myself where I can work from anywhere. And I'm. I'm exploring. I explored Chicago. Now I'm exploring Arizona.

And I'm looking towards figuring out where my next location is by choosing me and pivoting and being not afraid to pivot and not afraid to reinvent yourself, but not afraid to try other things. Things that stay constant with me, that I love helping women feel good on the inside out and help them.

And now I want to help them navigate these trials and tribulations. But, but staying fluid and giving yourself grace is so important, you know, And.

I think to both of you guys.

Monica, with you interviewing all of these ladies for the article, and then Melissa, in your personal experience, was quietly quitting a means of survival and self preservation for you? Or was it kind of just a way to sort of push. Push the inevitable away for a while? Like, what, what did it mean?

Like, what did it really mean for everyone?

Well, I'll just say for many of the women that I spoke to, it was, why am I devoting my energy to a lost cause? Like, I could be taking that effort and time and devoting it to something else, whether it's my career, my parenting skills.

And I think women feel when you're not heard and you're not saying seen, you feel unempowered. And yet I think some of these women that I spoke to, yes, they felt unseen and unheard, but they also reclaim their power.

And I'm not advocating for quietly quitting.

I hope that is a stage that you go through and then you decide, either I'm going to leave or I'm going to get loud and tell my partner that I'm not quietly quitting anymore. I'm screaming, we need to work on this relationship. So I think it is a form of self preservation, and I think it's a phase, a really important phase.

It's like the pot is boiling on the stove. Are you going to take the pot off? Are you going to let it explode?

I couldn't agree more.

For you, Melissa, was it self preservation or was it something like a kind of a baby step towards a bigger, like, let's say divorce?

I didn't think I was going to file for divorce. I didn't think I was on that path.

But we go back to looking at where I was when I didn't want to pick up this call in France and then not filing till a year later. I really tried. I really wanted it to work. It was self preservation, to survive.

But then I realized I could no longer survive in that situation, it was not going to get better. And then I chose divorce.

But I would hope, like I said, women that are on the fence, if you choose your husband, you want to make this work, give it all that you can.

Yeah. What advice would you give to those women? Would you say?

I mean, are there certain things that you think in your mind might have helped, or are there, you know, things that you think would help other women if they're kind of on this fence?

Looking back now and having a significant number of married friends and have single girlfriends, People don't like to talk about this part. This is the icky part. A lot of people keep it quiet because it's so you still have joint appearances to make together. And.

And then it's like, well, I know she hates her husband, but now he's here. How do I navigate it? There's a lot of that there that you just adjunct, too. I think if someone is consciously quite.

That they're quietly quitting and they're seriously contemplating divorce, do your best to. To know what your next steps will look like. Is that meaning that you're going to move out and find a place?

Is that meaning you have to move somewhere safe for your children? Is he going to leave? If you. Who's your beneficiary in all of your accounts, how will that affect your business?

Looking at those pieces to put in place before you leap and having a support system and also having as much cash as possible because cash is king in these situations. So when you have to show your accounts because going through a divorce, they look at every last line.

If you move things out or if you're taking cash out, stuff it under the bed or do something with it, because cash is king. To have lower. To have lower income stuff.

Nothing legal.

I'm just saying pay in cash, pay cash, cash is paid.

Melissa, I love what you said about journaling, and you just mentioned that talking to me helped you organize your thoughts around it. A few women that I interviewed have since reached out to me and said thank you.

In being interviewed, I really found some clarity around how I feel and what I can do and what the possibilities are and how insane I have felt. I think that's something we have to touch upon. Women start to feel crazy because they're being gaslit.

They're not being seen, they're not being heard. So reach out to your friends or find a therapist or someone who can listen to you because clearly your partner's not doing that.

And that's when you start to spin mentally and start to Feel like, oh, this is me and maybe I'm causing this or there's no way out. So really turn to other women.

I did mention a group in my article and I thought that is wonderful that this is a group called in essence, Stay or Go, where these women have a safe space to say it all. Say talk about the insults that they've shouldered or the lack of intimacy, see, or the resentment they feel or the guilt because their parents.

I mean, there's so much to it. And people often say, oh my God, marriage is hard. And I think, yeah, of course it's hard. So is working and making money. So is parenting.

So is, you know, keeping your health tip top. Like it's a responsibility, I guess, and it's long term. And it's not just you.

You have to rely on someone else, which can make it really hard if that person's not on board with you.

Absolutely. Yeah.

And I love the point that actually both of you guys make about having a support system, you know, because I think too maybe somebody who's going through this might be embarrassed to talk about it, you know, with their best friends or with their family or, you know, whoever their chosen person is.

And I think that we have to, as women feel okay with that because all of that like internalizing and not sharing with people who are there to love and support you manifests like you were saying with, you know, health issues. I mean, I think there were, in your article, Monica, there was somebody who got Parkinson's disease. Like, it's, it's, it.

There are like some scary side effects and things that can happen on the other side of things, like if you don't talk to people, you know, and I think that's even more reason to, to involve, you know, you're trusted, the people around you.

Yes, absolutely.

It's real. It can actualize as disease, honestly, as.

Much as it is to have some. Like, I, I spoke to my family about it. But movement, movement, breath, work. You have to get it out. Those things are key.

Movement, breath, work, journaling a class that you love. Maybe you're taking out your, your aggregate aggravation on a boxer or, you know, boxing or cycling, whatever that is.

Dance, but choose your, choose your poison and stick to it.

For sure, for sure. Based on what you guys know, Melissa, obviously your lived experience. And Monica interviewing all of these women for the article.

Is it possible to live in a quietly quit marriage forever?

Like, I mean, could this be a way to live if people, maybe they don't want to go through a divorce or Maybe they don't want to separate their finances or whatever the reason is. Is it possible to live quietly quit for the rest of your life?

I spoke with one woman, Wednesday Martin, and she wrote a book, what was it? Primates of Park Avenue, I believe she's an author. She's also a psychologist, and she was quietly quitting with her husband. She now lives in la.

He lives in New York. I don't know that quietly quitting I would recommend.

But I think there are ways of negotiating marriage so that either you decide to open it up or you live apart.

But I think quietly quitting takes such a toll on women emotionally and men too, that to sustain that type of resentment would really compromise your health. I think it would.

But I think once you acknowledge, like, hey, we've been quietly quitting for 10 years, let's do something about it, so let's live a life apart if we want to stay married. And I'm not sure what the upside of that is. Maybe it's financial, maybe it's because of your kids.

A lot of people say, I don't want to leave until my kids are grown. I have to say, having parents that really despise each other for most of my life, we were onto it. We understood.

We saw it, like, don't stick around for your kids. They see a lot. So I think it would be sad to live out a quietly quit marriage. I think it would be.

It's just, you know, why use your voice and either make some arrangement that works for both of you, or you primarily, or get out.

I think so much of the time, like you're saying, is we wait for the kids, right? We're like, oh, the kids are going to be going to college in 10 years. You know, I can stick this out, or, you know, they're moving out.

But like you're saying, I think, you know, you can't wait for that. That can't be the end goal. But maybe it's also kind of kicking the can down the road a bit too, right?

It's like not really having to make that choice. Like, it's almost like it's kind of made for you, but without having to make it.

I mean, I've seen so many couples that decide to part when the kids go to college and the kids known about it the entire time, and it's not great for them. So why stay in dis ease to have something manifest later? Like, there's not one day that I ever regret being single on my own and choosing me.

Not one second. It is Definitely the best decision for my health and my future.

Yeah. And I always say, I got married at 38 and I know I love my mom. My dad's passed away. They had a terrible marriage.

I might have gotten married sooner, but they definitely passed on marriage trauma to me. I've never heard that expression. But there's a reason Gen Z is not getting married.

And the number one reason they speak to is because they watch their parents fight. They watch their parents be miserable. Why would I want that?

And I may have gotten married sooner, but seeing my parents so unhappy together made me think, do I really want a piece of this? And I want to be sure. And I don't want to get in that type of situation. So think about your kids. They're watching you're modeling a relationship.

So they're watching how you treat each other. And that's imprinting. So that when they go out into the world, that's what they think they should do.

And also how you treat yourself. Yes. You learn so much from your mother. Your mother is miserable and happy. Not.

Not taking care of herself, not putting makeup on her face dressing slummy. So miserable. That's the energy that you're teaching your daughter or son that it's okay or it's okay how your husband treats your. Your kids.

You have to choose you and show the best examples. Your kids are living to their fullest and at their best ability.

I love that you're. So.

We should choose ourselves, especially in midlife, too, because, you know, we've spent so much of our lives taking care of other people. You know, whether that be kids, partners, work, you know, family, aging family, like, whatever that looks like. It's like we put so.

But everybody else before us and it is the time now to look. And maybe that's scary.

Maybe that, you know, maybe that means you reevaluate your relationship or like your living situation or your job or like, whatever that is. But you're right. It's like we need to, like, think about ourselves for once and say, is this working for me? You know, and it's. It can be scary.

It is scary. It is scary.

But it's worth staying in an unhappy marriage that makes you sick, that you fear coming home, you fear hearing them walk in the door, or you tiptoe and slowly move to your room because you don't want to deal with it. Who wants to live like that? Choose you. Find a place that makes me happy. Move on. Send them peace and love. But start your next chapter.

Right? Absolutely. So what advice would you give to women who are listening right now who feel stuck.

Like, they feel like I might not be in a happy marriage right now. I'd really maybe like to explore the other side of it. You know, maybe they want to get divorced.

Maybe they want to try, you know, baby steps and kind of figure out if it's the right. The right way to go. What would you say to a woman like that that is currently in this, like, kind of state of limbo?

I would say talk to your friends, and if you don't have friends, look for a support group. As I mentioned, there's a support group that's in my article that.

It's called Stay or Go, and it's Rebecca Wolf and Mindy Walder, and they counsel women who. Who are in this, like, emotional, physical rut. But to Melissa's point, too, write down how you feel.

Like, really, really think and try to articulate from your heart and your. And your mind and your body, which. Which holds so much of our emotion.

And it's really hard to move when you don't know how you feel and you don't feel seen or heard. So be your own voice and. And again, reach out to people. Reach out to me. Reach out to Melissa on Instagram.

You know, like, we are caring women who will listen. I hope I can speak for you, Melissa.

It's really important. I started hosting virtual meetups and in person meetups to hike, walk, talk about grief. I was the one that grief, to me, is how I navigate my day.

I chose my divorce, but I also lost my mom and sister. And when you look at it as a total picture, it is loss and it is grief. And how do you support those that are also going through that?

I'm here, so I have host events in Los Angeles. I'm currently in Arizona. I have a couple of things here, but you're not alone. Community is everything.

Monica has a fantastic newsletter that supports the midlife pivot. I have a newsletter as well that I talk about all of these changes and navigating new ways.

There are resources out there that I didn't think existed for our parents. And just how no one talked about perimenopause, menopause. It has changed. There's so much out here. We are screaming for the mountaintops.

I'm not saying join the single club, but if you're gonna do it, I'm here for you and so is Monica.

And we're just here to talk about the supporting women because we realize that we're all that we've got and community is truly the only way to navigate it.

I would never be a proponent of threats, but if you have not yet said to your partner, I have an ultimatum for you. I am going to leave this relationship. If we can't come together, I would do that. I would really think about doing that.

I think a lot of people are afraid to do that. They're afraid to go to therapy because they think it will end the relationship. If that's the case, it was meant to end.

It was meant to end. And obviously do it safely, because sometimes women are afraid of retaliation. I would look at your picture. Look at your picture.

If this person didn't exist today, could I survive? Could I navigate if I was to say this to my partner, what would he do in retaliation? So make sure you take care of yourself.

And even so, to your point, if you're looking at that picture and say to yourself, would I be happier? And if the answer is yes, then that says something right then and there. You know, I mean, that. That's. That's something.

I think you have to take, like, an inventory of your life. And we should take an inventory of our lives. You know, we should do that frequently.

I mean, if things aren't working, there's no reason why not to change things, you know, or try to work towards a different goal.

One of the most shocking things that was said to me while I was navigating is from a married friend that has two kids and said, oh, my gosh, I can't believe you really did it.

Like, couldn't believe that I actually did, and how quickly it went, because there was this thought in mind, like, well, you're just unhappy, but you'll just deal with it, or you'll just figure it out, or it's like, I can't believe you did it. And I think that was my. And to be honest with you, the friendship fractured a little bit after that.

And I truly believe there's sometimes women that almost want you unhappy because you choosing yourself as a reflection of their unhappiness in their own marriage. And she could not see that anymore.

Yes. And you were brave enough to take the step that she probably wants to take herself, you know?

Absolutely.

I want to say to women who feel like they're too old to take on the world alone or to be single again or to start over. I think of midlife as the ride at Disneyland, and there's no line. Nobody knows. It's a good ride.

But once you get in and you strap on your seatbelt and you get on that ride, you realize this is the best ride of my life. Now if there's a person next to you throwing up and it's ending up in your face, he's ruining the ride. He is really ruining the ride for you.

So either get on this ride with someone that you're going to have fun with and throw your hands up in the air or get on that ride alone. There are plenty of women on it. Trust me, you'll have fun.

You'll have fun. You might meet other friends on this ride, you know, like find other girlfriends, meet new girlfriends. I mean the rather dick.

Yeah, exactly.

There could be some flying dick that you just, you, you grabbed it, you got it here, you got it there. I mean it could be very exciting.

All about it. Bring it on.

Take a lover in Paris. I mean, all the things Melissa, I want to know.

Are you so still in touch with the 80 year old woman you spent your birthday with?

I am not.

She didn't respond to my last email a while back, so I, I don't know if she's still with us, but let's take a collective moment to send her some love because honestly, that day was one of the best days ever. Truly.

Oh, how fun. It sounds amazing. Wait, are you dating right now or are you single and enjoying it? Like, what's your.

Oh, I, I'm single and open to possibility, but I'm, I'm single. Well, I will say this, there's. I'm writing a book about this.

To be, to be honest, the year when I chose myself and this was before divorce was final, I had this wonderful year of sex and exploration and because I was so committed in a relationship for 10 years and then you, you wake up and you're like, wow, there's so many men here. And I had a lot of fun.

But then I, I find at the end of that year of chaos of situation shifts and you know, but on the counters and breaking my back and all the fine ticks that I just wanted to, I wanted my peace, I wanted a little, I wanted my love. Like I wanted support into myself and not into anybody else. So right now I'm just happily single.

But if there's someone that amazing, I came, came up a wonderful day, I might jump on it. But at this moment I am happily celibate. Oh my God, I love it, I love it.

And good for you for getting out there and like, you know, living life and like experiencing like what you wanted to. Right?

Yeah. And I got married at 31, so I wasn't a Little baby virgin. But I had my fun.

But I think there's something about loving your body and to have the confidence I have now. What if I had it back then? Oh, my gosh.

Because there's something about owning your sexuality, owning your body, owning your curves, loving yourself that I didn't have. And I found sex to be a lot more fun during my, my crazy years.

That, that is so interesting.

You know, I'm finding that more and more now that I'm talking to some friends who have, you know, either gone through a divorce or changed relationships, and they're really out there enjoying themselves sexually. They say that they're so much more confident now than they ever were before, in their 20s and even like in their 30s, which I find so cool.

And why shouldn't they be? Right?

I agree. I mean, look at us. We're all really amazing, beautiful women. So that's number one. So if you're gonna get out there, like, they're good.

But I also will say, I know this might be another podcast, but the younger guys, they have a confidence that I don't think I've seen when I was at, when I was 26. There's no way that I thought that of a 26 year old. And these 26 year olds are like hunting us in a way that I've never seen before.

And it's quite, it's quite amazing. And that there's not like, it's not the expectation of relationship. I mean, how much conversation can you really have?

But I'm definitely in the past where I would have frowned upon it. I have welcomed it with open legs.

Oh, my God, I love that. Yes, I'm awful. You guys are like, bring me all the cougar. Like it's a thing. Like, they're like, give me some cougar. Right?

I know.

But yeah, it's crazy because I normally was never looking at that.

I think, you know, it's interesting because the news is always like, cougars. And these women are choosing younger men. These men are choosing older women for very specific reasons.

To your point, women know how to ask for what they want now in the bedroom.

And that's why when people talk about our libido plummeting after a certain age, you know, there are some shifts, but women actually can have so much better sex and better orgasms after 40 because of the confidence that you have about your body. And again, asking for what you want and need. And I think young men are like, yes, give me directions, tell me how to do this.

And women, you know, after a certain age or of a certain age are really comfortable and it's refreshing for them. They, they're choosing women more than women are choosing them. Yeah.

And if you're on HRTs and hormone replacement, that even makes it better because it's like you're getting, you know, your hormones back and then like the libidos match up, you know, with like a guy that's in his 20s. I feel like that's another thing too actually, now that I'm thinking about it.

Talking to some married friends is like if their husbands, let's say, are a little bit older, maybe they're in their 50s, 60s, whatever it is, they're saying that their husbands, you know, are losing their libido and they're like the ones that really want to have sex and like the libidos don't match anymore. So I totally get like, you know, dating a younger guy or having sex with a younger guy.

Because that, that is an issue too as you get older in marriage is like sometimes those libidos don't match and oftentimes it's the man's libido that's gone down, contrary to what we hear, you know.

Yeah, wrinkle dicks are not great for many things except for paying my dinners and my vacations. But the younger guys, you know, they're quite a snap.

Total snack. Oh my God, I'm dying. That is so true. Okay, ladies, so what advice would you give your 25 year old selves?

My advice to my 25 year old self is say whatever is on your mind, do whatever you want. Um, remember that in 20 years you're going to have a huge fuck it bucket. Like have it now. You know, have the confidence.

And honestly, that's something that I tell younger women when I talk to them instead of talking about how, oh, when you're 40, you're so confident and you don't care what other people think and you try new things and you're less risk averse.

Like we need to be teaching women in their 20s to harness that power so that they can move in the workplace and politics and just have better lives and treat other women better. So it would be, Even though my 25 year old would not necessarily know what this means, act like you're 40, act like you're 50.

Yeah, like with that confidence and like.

That self assurance, it's already there.

It's over there. Don't wait 20 years to tap into those superpowers.

Why do we do that? We let the time go, we let the Time pass and we've like, lost. So no, I don't want to say we've lost the time, because we haven't lost the time.

But it's like we could have been doing this a long time ago. You know, it's like we could have been so much more assured and, you know, not really giving a shit what everybody else was thinking. Right.

I think the key is, and younger people are onto this. I mean, I grew up caring so much about how men perceived me, whether my looks or how I behaved. And that's something I learned from my dad.

And he's a different generation. And I'm certainly not teaching my daughter this, nor is my husband. And I think we're going to see a profound change in this generation.

We already are in terms of feeling more confident, asking for what they want. I mean, people say that Gen Zers get on a job and after a month they're like, I'd like to run this company.

And you could say, that's terrible, but I prefer that to, oh, my God, do you think I could get a promotion in 10 years? How do I climb my way up a ladder? I like where things are going well.

Some gent years I want to definitely choke because look, no bigger place. But this is also the millennial in me saying, I've paid my dues, I've worked hard, all of those things that carry.

But if I was, I mean, 25 again, I was having a blast at 25, I'm kind of feel like I'm 25 again. So don't fall in love with potential. I will say that. And don't be so tied to this list.

I remember that I wrote this list of a hundred qualities that I needed in a partner. I needed those qualities for myself. So make sure you are what you want to receive.

Good point, good point. I always say to fuck the timelines. Like, no timelines, right? Especially as we know now, like, fuck the timelines.

Then I'm also. I'm different. I didn't ever want children. I've known that for a very long time. So I operated a little bit differently.

It was never for me to get married to have kids. It's for me to be married and have a partner and have a full life without kids. So it's a little bit different. So I wasn't ever rushing.

But I will say how I feel. It wasn't 25 where I was feeling that fear.

It was like when I turned 30 was like, well, are you still going to be going out and doing the same Things.

And that's where I felt like I was compromised my timeline because I've all said it felt a little bit more rushed and I didn't look at things from, from I had rose colored glasses.

I mean, there were a lot of red flags with my partner that I chose to ignore, including the fact that he was married twice before and was 10 years older than me. I thought at the times it seems to be, oh, but no, it's okay. But it was a bad. Like I made so many concessions. That is none of his fault.

This is all on me. So he showed up as who he was and I chose to see something differently and make it something else.

So it's just realizing what I. I mean, I'm saying this now, hindsight, but at 25, enjoy yourself. Enjoy yourself and be the Samantha Jones. Have the fun. Don't be the needy Carrie. That's so needy.

No, completely. So what is the biggest lesson that you guys have learned in midlife?

I will say that things don't have to look like I links don't look like they the way I thought they would be. And that's okay. I'm redefining what home looks for me, what work looks for me. There's so many more possibilities.

The days of thinking that I would have some corporate job or work at a news station or work at forever and ever. Those days are. Those days are over. You can create whatever you want to create at this age and that's okay. It's no longer falling into this.

The shoulds. The shoulds are the worst.

Yes, fuck should.

Yes, fuck should.

Fuck should.

Yeah, I would say there's no scarcity. Like people will give to you. Don't worry about what other people are getting that you're not getting. Don't.

Don't worry that there's not enough for you. In midlife. I realized there's plenty to go around. And I think when you come from that idea of there's not enough, if she gets it, I won't get it.

Or if he gets it, I won't get it. You act in a certain way, you hold yourself back. You may not be as generous in spirit as you could be. So just remember it's all out there.

Like the tree has plenty of apples. There's no shortage of apples. So pick as many as you want. Make applesauce.

Do all the apple stuff. Like all of it. You know, that's great. Set yourself up early to kind of live abundantly. So you're not in that mind frame. Yeah, absolutely.

How are you two living iconically.

Right now, I'm living without. I'm learning that I don't need as much as I used to. I'm. I'm traveling.

I'm.

I'm.

I'm living on my own terms. And essentially. And I think that is refreshing and peaceful for me. So that's iconic. If not feeling like I needed to be in a box or.

Or such and creating from a beautiful, expanded space. So that's iconic living to me.

I am living iconically by mixing prints. Like, I will wear a leopard top with floral pants and maybe suede boots with a buckle. I'm also living iconically by saying no.

For instance, I was recently out to dinner, and a woman said, well, I'm going to order for everyone. I'm going to order for the table. And I said, well, I don't share food. She was like, what?

And I said, I don't like to share food, so I'm going to order my own food. And the women at the table were like, you can do that? And I said, nikon, you can.

Just speaking your mind and just asking one and saying no if you don't want to do something. And wearing a lot of leopard.

I love that saying no when you don't want to do something.

Yeah, no, no, thank you.

And you don't even need an explanation. No is a complete sentence like, no, thank you. That's fine.

I do have to say, Monica, like, one of the first times I met you, one of the things that resonated so much when we were talking is you were so fun. You came up and you had this great, like, Kenzo dress on. And you're like, yeah, I wore this to an event last night, too.

And I was like, yes, I love somebody who will repeat a good outfit and not think twice about it. I. I am the biggest, like, outfit repeater of all time. If I like, oh, same, right.

Yes.

See me wearing it multiple times. Like, I was like, yes, wear your clothes. Wear your. And wear whatever the fuck you want to wear. That makes you feel good. Right?

If it worked last night, it's going to work tonight.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

And no one cares because everyone's looking at their phones.

Oh, my God. That's the thing. Nobody fudgeing cares. Like, we think that everybody is watching to see what we did, like, five minutes.

And I'm like, nobody fucking cares. Nobody cares. They're not even thinking about you.

No.

Everyone is so concerned.

Totally. Well, ladies, I am so thrilled we got to do this. This just the article, the subject I think is so fascinating.

It's going to resonate with so many people.

So I just want to thank you guys for your honesty, for, you know, your expertise, for going out there and doing this thing and really bringing it to light. Because no doubt it will help so many women who are going through this right now. So I thank you guys.

Thank you again, Melissa, for talking to me.

Happy to help. Thank you for having us.

And Roxy, great questions. I can't wait to watch this.

Thank you. So before we go, you guys, please let everybody know where they can find you.

Follow me, Monica at Pretty Ripe on Instagram. I also write for the Cut regularly. I'm a columnist at Goop. And when you go to pretty ripe.com you can sign up for my newsletter.

So good. Can't wait to see.

I know you've got a lot coming down the pipeline with more articles and a book and all that good stuff, so cannot wait to hear more about that. Melissa, where can everybody find you?

You can follow me on Instagram at Melissa Chtain if you'd like to attend my events or book a styling session or join me for one of my retreats in France, you can find that@melissa.

Chitan.Com Monica and Melissa are coming back on Thursday for the bonus game episode Drop, which we are going to film next, and it's going to be so much fun. So you're going to be listening to this episode on Tuesday.

Come back on Thursday so you can hear the full game episode because it's going to be a little saucy and spicy. Yes, I can't wait. So everybody come back see us again on Thursday. Thank you to Melissa and Monica.

Bye, everyone.

Bye.

Thank you, Roxy.

This conversation really stays with me because what I hear underneath all of this isn't just about marriage. It's about women in midlife finally realizing that time is not infinite. That our bodies are not infinite, our patients is not infinite.

And our willingness to disappear inside a life that doesn't fit anymore is not infinite either.

Whether a woman chooses to leave, to stay and renegotiate, to open a marriage or quietly reclaim herself from the inside, what feels undeniable is this. Midlife is the moment when women stop abandoning themselves.

Monica, Melissa, thank you for your honesty, your courage, and for naming something so many women are living but rarely say out loud. And to everyone listening, if this conversation resonated with you, I'd love for you to do three quick things that really help the show grow.

First, tap follow on your podcast app so you never miss an episode. Second, if you're on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music Music, or any other podcast app, leave a quick rating or review.

It helps the show reach more women who need these conversations. And third, share this episode with a friend who you know is quietly navigating something similar.

You can also watch the full video version of this conversation on YouTube. Just search the Iconic Midlife and come say hi to me on social media at the Iconic Midlife and at Red Carpet Roxy.

Because we're not doing midlife quietly, we're doing it on our own terms.