Movement can be so much more than a way to change your body. In this episode of the BariNation Foundation Podcast, April Williams sits down with psychologist, researcher, and movement expert Dr. Kelly McGonigal and BariNation community member Charity Guerrero to completely rethink the role of movement in the obesity health journey. They discuss the “comfort paradox,” why movement may require us to step into discomfort in service of a more meaningful life, and how reconnecting with our bodies can create hope, joy, confidence, and connection. Dr. McGonigal explains the science behind “hope molecules,” why the most important shift is from nothing to anything, why your brain may need time to learn to reward movement, and how supportive movement communities can help us feel like we belong.

What You Will Learn in this Episode:

✅ Why movement doesn't have to be about weight, appearance, burning calories, or “fixing” your body, and how it can instead create hope, meaning, joy, and connection.

✅ What the “comfort paradox” means and why choosing meaningful discomfort can sometimes open the door to a fuller, more accessible life.

✅ How “hope molecules” released by working muscles can support physical, metabolic, immune, cardiovascular, and brain health, and why movement is accessible regardless of age, size, or fitness level.

✅ Why the most important movement shift is from “nothing to anything,” how to give yourself space and grace while building a movement habit, and how community can make movement more rewarding.

This episode of the BariNation Podcast is produced by the BariNation Foundation, a 501 (c) (3) dedicated to advancing metabolic wellness for people living with obesity by providing evidence-based education, stigma-free support, and meaningful connections in the moments that shape daily life. Funding comes from generous donations to the BariNation Foundation from listeners and viewers like you, Johnson & Johnson, and the Texas Center for Bariatrics & Advanced Surgery, led by Dr. Joe Cribbins.

TIMESTAMPS:

00:00 Why the brain doesn't immediately reward movement and what it takes to experience the benefits

04:07 Meet Dr. Kelly McGonigal and why she sees movement as a vehicle for hope, meaning, and joy

08:03 The comfort paradox: why treating obesity for comfort can eventually require us to embrace discomfort

14:22 Choosing meaningful discomfort over a life limited by fear and physical discomfort

19:59 How the meaning we assign to physical sensations can change our experience of movement

24:13 Reconnecting with the body through proprioception and discovering what movement can help you feel

33:29 Learning to “befriend” a body that may have felt like a source of shame or betrayal

36:43 Hope molecules: how your muscles act like an internal pharmacy when you move

41:48 From nothing to anything: understanding the dose and intensity of movement

49:34 Why movement may take about six weeks before your brain begins rewarding you for it

51:25 The power of moving together: how supportive movement communities create belonging and connection

57:14 Finding the right movement community and giving yourself permission to keep looking

01:04:21 Rethinking what movement can look like and finding activities connected to your values

01:07:00 How movement can help unlock hope, possibility, belonging, and a sense of purpose

01:11:24 Dr. McGonigal previews her upcoming book, Joy Is a Risk Worth Taking

KEY TAKEAWAYS:

💎 Movement doesn't have to be about changing your weight or fixing your body. It can be a pathway to hope, joy, meaning, connection, and a greater sense of what your body can do.

💎 The most important movement shift is from nothing to anything. You don't have to go from the couch to a 5K to benefit from movement. Start with what your body is capable of doing today.

💎 “Hope molecules” are released when muscles contract, giving movement benefits that extend beyond physical fitness and into brain health, resilience, stress, and positive emotions.

💎 Your body may have been a source of shame, fear, or disconnection, but movement can help you rebuild a relationship with your body and experience it as a source of possibility rather than something to fight against.

ABOUT THE GUEST:

Kelly McGonigal, PhD, is a health psychologist and lecturer at Stanford University, and a leading expert in the new field of “science-help.” She is passionate about translating cutting-edge research from psychology, neuroscience, and medicine into practical strategies for health, happiness, and personal success.

https://www.kellymcgonigal.com/

https://www.instagram.com/kellymariemcgonigal/?hl=en

RESOURCES MENTIONED:

BariNation Community - $19 a month

BariNation Website

BariNation - Email

BariNation’s How to Find an Obesity Specialist Guide

4 Steps to Find an Obesity Provider

Finding Your Holistic Obesity Care Team

Sign up for BariNation’s Newsletters

J&JMedTech

The brain naturally rewards movement, but not at first. It seems to require a certain level of commitment to give you things like a runner's high, which is... doesn't require running, just requires being physically active to some moderate degree where you just, you go. You just keep going for, you know, 15, 20 minutes. But for your brain to give you the reward of dopamine, endorphins, endocannabinoids, for most people, if they haven't been active and they start, typically they do not get the high that they've heard about.They may just feel tired and worse after their, their initial attempt to exercise. And it takes about six weeks for the brain to kind of restructure itself and re-understand what movement means to start paying off and giving you this high where you actually, while you're moving, you start to feel better, and it persists afterwards and you feel more hopeful about life.

Welcome to the Bari Nation Podcast, a production of the Bari Nation Foundation.

Where we fight obesity by living our pillars: movement, mindset, metabolic wellness, and community.

Four pillars, one mission. We're so glad you're here.Before we get started with the episode, we wanted to thank the generous donors to the Bari Nation Foundation, a 501[c]3 nonprofit which is dedicated to bringing science-based, stigma-free support to people managing obesity, particularly the Johnson & Johnson company. To become a one-time or regular donor, please visit barination.org.

Friends, if you have this just running in the background, I'm gonna need you to save it on whatever platform you're watching and listening, 'cause you're gonna come back to this and you're gonna take some notes and you're gonna watch it again and again, because this is a movement conversation we have never had before. Truly. Dr. Kelly McGonigal is a psychologist, a researcher, and one of the most important voices in the science of movement, stress, and what it actually means to be human in a body. And in this episode, she sits down with Bari Nation community member Charity and myself to talk about something that will permanently change how you understand movement and why you do it. Yeah. We're gonna learn what hope molecules are, and why every single time you contract a muscle, your body is literally dispensing an intravenous dose of hope directly to your brain. You're gonna hear why the most important shift isn't from couch to 5K, it's from nothing to anything. You're gonna understand the comfort paradox, and why the same treatment you choose for relief is asking you to walk straight back into discomfort, and why that's actually the whole point. This conversation is tectonic. It has the power to forever change why you move, and honestly, that's the change that changes everything else.Watch it, listen to it, come back and watch it again, as many times as you need. And when you're done, share this episode, because it's the exact conversation the world needs right now about movement. We know you're gonna have some big takeaways and some aha moments, and we want to know what they are. So please drop them in the comments on whatever platform you are watching or listening on. And if you have a follow-up question, share that below as well so we can keep this conversation going with Dr. McGonigal. If you have struggled with movement, this conversation will forever change how you talk back to those voices in your head that are trying to talk you out of movement. Hello, friends. Welcome to the Bari Nation Podcast. Charity and I are thrilled to be interviewing one of our favorite humans on the planet. Her name is Dr. Kelly McGonigal. She has written books that has literally, uh, traveled continents with me. I'm holding up one of them now, The Joy of Movement. She is a foremost researcher on, on stress, on willpower, on movement, and how we can utilize all of these things in our toolbox along our human health journey. And today we are very excited to talk to, talk to her about how we can utilize movement along in our, our obesity health journey. And friends, when I say you are going to hear and learn things that you have never heard or learned before in this conversation, we mean it. And before we get into that, Dr. McGonigal, will you introduce yourself to our friends that don't know you yet?

Sure. Well, thank you for having me. I'm excited about this conversation. I hope I deliver on that promise.So, as you mentioned, I'm a psychologist. I also have been leading group movement experiences, dance, yoga, all sorts of types of movements, um, for more than 25 years. It's the fa- favorite thing that I do. Um, and I guess the one thing I'd like to highlight is most of the time when you meet someone and they say that they lead exercise classes or they really care about the power of movement, um, their motivations are often to support the body, to fix the body, to improve the body, whether we're talking about health or size or appearance. But, uh, I thought it'd be helpful to know that that's really not my primary motivation. Um, the motivation for everything that I do comes from a place of understanding that it's really hard to be human, and that every day people wake up and for a lot of them, it's hard to even want to be alive. And my primary goal as a psychologist and as someone who leads movement experiences is I want people to understand the value of their own life. I want people to experience hope and meaning and community and joy, and I actually view movement as a vehicle for those things, not, um, something that is purely transactional to support the wellbeing of the body, although obviously it does that. But the way that I come at this is I actually view movement as a way to experience deep meaning and hope and connection and mattering and, and joy and pleasure. So, uh, that might be a little different than other folks you talk to about movement.

And that is why we are so honored and excited to have this conversation with you, because we know that everybody watching or listening to this show has, uh, perhaps a, a different history and an understanding of movement, right? As somebody who is fighting, treating, and managing the disease of obesity, along with Charity, movement and my body have been two banes of my existence for a very long time. And y- your book, your, your research, how you help us understand movement is truly a, a shift in our world and in our life. And we know that movement is one of our pillars that we can live each and every day, and that pillar helps us treat, manage, uh, fight and manage the, this disease. And without that pillar, we could be missing out on the joy and the hope that this world has to offer us.So thank you for kicking us off by, by saying that very clearly and very proudly. Charity, will you introduce yourself?

Absolutely. I am an avid community member of BariNation. I had bariatric surgery in the spring of 2022 and had almost no support. I found BariNation by accident when I was seven months post-op, just absolutely thought I was losing my mind, and it saved me. It has changed my absolute life.So I have, um, you know, have lost over 180 pounds. I have maintained that for a year, and I could not have done it without the pillars of mindset and movement. And what I love, Kelly, about your work, um, everyone in BariNation knows I'm a f- I'm a complete fan, but, um, it's a journey. It's not a destination. I think so many times we talk about movement, and we're talking about finishing a marathon or finishing a workout or getting to a certain size, and it really isn't about that with you. It's about the journey and what we get from every step along the journey.

Mm-hmm.

So I just can't wait to hear more.

Well, and I think that is a perfect segue into, into where we want to start this conversation. Kelly, before we hit recorded, or before we hit record, you said that y- that your book, right, and I'm, and again, I, I wanna say this l- loudly, movement and your weight are not going to be the two things that are connected in this conversation.

No.

If you are human, if you, right, have a body, movement is something that's built for you. And oftentimes along our obesity health journey, uh, we find ourselves in a paradoxical moment in time. So one of the, those paradoxes is comfort. As somebody who has the disease of obesity and, and the disease manifests in excess weight, you're carrying a- around a, a lot of extra weight o- on your frame. And you make the decision to treat the disease because you are looking for some comfort. You've never been able to really find, find comfort before.So you make the decision. You treat the disease. You have found some comfort. And then a few months after treatment, you realize, "Oh, I need to put myself back into discomfort if I actually want to, to manage this disease." And movement is sometimes an area that can be very uncomfortable for us. It's chronic pain. It's, it, it's issues with size and shape, feeling that we don't belong in, in these spaces. So how can we hold both of these as, as true? We, we, we sought treatment for comfort, and now we're being asked to kinda step back into, uh, discomfort. How do we do that?

Yeah. You know, it's funny your use of the word comfort, because one of the themes in I think all of my work and all of my books is that there's this innate desire for comfort. It's like a core human instinct, and yet most of the things that we do to avoid discomfort create more suffering in the, the long term. So, you know, a big part of my life and my work has been how do I actually not give in to the instinct to make all of my choices about trying to reduce discomfort and instead look for choices that are about choosing something that I value and increasing my capacity to tolerate different types of discomfort in service of my values.Um, I came at it from a different place, a place of pain. So I've had chronic pain since I was a child, and if you have a, a history of chronic pain, one of the things you learn is that to... Well, I shouldn't say this for everyone, but what a lot of people with chronic pain learn is if you wanna move forward in life, you have to abandon the hope that there's a version of your life that doesn't involve being in pain, that there's a version of being in your body that is going to always feel good, uh, or that there's a, you know, a version of your life where living in a body doesn't require negotiations and managing energy. There has to be a different thing that you're aiming for that is about choosing things that matter to you, the experiences you most want to have, the people you wanna spend time with, the places that you want to be able to go, and to make more strategic choices about the types of discomfort that you're willing to endure or the types of discomfort that are worth the experiences that you're choosing. So that's the, the first way I think about it. And rather than talking about trying to avoid discomfort, I really think more in terms of reducing suffering. And when you think about reducing suffering rather than trying to maximize comfort, you start to realize that often there's a cost to trying to avoid situations that bring up anxiety or self-doubt or that are physically taxing or involve some physical discomfort that have the risk of failure, um-

Mm-hmm

... that there actually is a cost to that. It's not free. You look like you wanna jump in there.

Say that... Oh my God. I'm sorry. You just broke my brain. Will you say that again? There, that w- that cost. What is that cost?

Well, the cost is often whatever the positive consequences of doing the thing that is uncomfortable would be. And I mean, I can just give you a really simple example just from my own body.So I have early onset severe arthritis in parts of my body that, um, I have been told is not treatable. I was given the advice years ago that I should just stop dancing. That, to me, is not, uh, a reasonable choice to make since teaching dance classes is how-- one of the most important ways that I create community and give back to my community.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and I just-- there would be an-- if I were trying to navigate my life around reducing the amount of pain that I feel in parts of my body, or if I sort of believe the narrative that I was literally told, like, "There's a reason you don't see people teaching dance in your state and at your age."

Mm-hmm.

And I thought, well, that's not a narrative that is going to be useful for me trying to create a life of meaning and community and contribution and joy.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Um, so the cost of, of trying to, um, I guess protect myself from certain types of pain would be-- the cost would be being able to have these experiences I have every day of, of going and moving with people to music that inspires us and with people who support one another. And you know, as another example from my life, I've had a phobia of flying my whole life, and let me tell you, that was one of the hardest things that I've had the-- in terms of discomfort to choose that I was willing to tolerate. You know, to put yourself in a place where you could have panic attacks and motion sickness and no control and all these other things that like, those are really situations you just don't want. Like, I just would really choose not to have that experience, the physical experience, the psychological experience, the, the, the dread leading up to it.But it's-- there's a greater cost in not being able to see my family. There's a greater cost in not being able to go back to places I used to call home-

Mm-hmm

... and, and experience reunions in that way-

Mm-hmm

... or to see new places. There's always, there's always a cost if we have a, a s- like a certain-- if there are experiences we think are too much for us, or experiences that we want to protect ourselves from having, and, uh, it's often we have to decide that, that there are risks that are worth taking because we can imagine an outcome that is really meaningful to us, and we don't want to construct our lives in a way that precludes us from having them.

I think anybody who's watching or listening to this podcast understands what you're saying at the cellular level, and the first example is we make the decision to undergo treatment knowing that that treatment is going to be uncomfortable.

Mm-hmm.

But we are hanging onto a thread of hope that tells us there is a better life, a more accessible life that awaits us on that other end. So w- I think we understand that to our core.Charity, where I think this comes in for us in like a post-treatment world is once we've made that decision, we've found a little comfort, and now we're being asked to step back into discomfort, and if we don't step back into discomfort, we have to understand there is a cost that we're gonna pay for that.

Well, and if we back up to the cost benefits analysis, right? If I'm listening to this and I am pre-op, then I am not thinking about, or at least we are trying to say, "Let's not think about us being a size 12. Let's think about what happens today and tomorrow on that cost benefit analysis. What will I get from moving today?"

Mm-hmm.

If I'm pre-op and I move today, first of all, uh, I'm sure, Kelly, you'll be talking soon about hope molecules. If I move today-

Mm-hmm

... my muscles strengthen for, for surgery, and I'll be having a better recovery. What's in it for me today?I think so often we look at, I start to move, I go outside to walk, and I'm only thinking about the destination, and the journey is full of joy that I'm missing out on if I don't start because I'm overwhelmed by the destination that I'm trying to reach.

And you know, one of the things that this brings to mind for me is we have to cultivate a kind of selective attention to what we experience when we move our bodies. So this, you know, this is something that, again, you learn a lot when you have any type of chronic pain or anxiety, that experiences that are meant to be pleasurable or enjoyable are always gonna be some kind of a mixed bag, that there are gonna be peak moments maybe where, like let's say we're, we're going out for a walk in nature, and you're gonna see something beautiful, or you're gonna be-- like yesterday I saw a butterfly.I've never seen this type of butterfly before, the kind that has fake eyes on it. You know, like they open up their wings and they look like they've got these big, scary eyes.

Yeah.

And it just was so cool, and I was like, "Oh my gosh, I've never seen this before." That was a peak part of being outdoors.But also, I got covered in burrs and my clothing when I was little, but anyways, there were all-- and any experience we have, we can pay attention to the parts that are disappointing or the parts that are physically uncomfortable or the thought we have where we're judging ourselves or wondering if somebody else is judging us. There are all these, these different elements of an experience, and part of, I think, what it means to, to ask ourselves, you know, what am I gonna get out of this today, is to not, um, to not have a contamination mindset where if I had a moment where I couldn't keep up or if I had a moment where I had a negative thought about my body or if I had a moment where I was physically uncomfortable and my back was hurting or my feet were hurting, I kind of ruined the whole thing. And instead, I often talk about having like a redemption mindset, that there are often these moments that make things worthwhile. And we can choose, you know, during and after a movement experience to really think about the highlights of it, uh, and to think that moment of pleasure, that moment of feeling good about what you did, even if it was hard, or a moment when you laughed with somebody else and how just good it feels to laugh with someone, and maybe you wouldn't have laughed so hard if you weren't doing something that was physically difficult or, you know, trying something new for the first time, that there are these highlights and we can really give our attention to them, savor them in the moment- ... think about them afterwards when you're done in a way that makes it easier to, um, to understand that, that the, the costs or, like, the negative aspects of a movement experience don't have to determine whether it is worthwhile or whether... Does that make sense?

When I go to the grocery store, I'm still going. Uh, it costs money, and I-

Yeah.

... walk away with a lot of benefits, and I sort of need to eat to live. Yeah. I mean, just to bring it back home to the most basics, uh, of things.

Well, and in Bari Nation, we, again, we have these four pillars, but we often say y- you can't live one and not also bump up against the other, right? So we're talking about the movement mindset, but what I hear you also saying, Kelly, is there is a lot of mindset that goes into this.And in Bari Nation, we often talk about the "yes, and."

Mm-hmm.

We can hold two things that seem, right, not the same, in that same space together. So I can go into movement, or I can be moving my body, and I could be worried or thinking about the aches, the pains, the, the body shape, the size, the, "Is this really gonna be worth it? What am I gonna get out of it?" And hold space for that redemption mindset, for that hope molecule to, to come through. Both are true, and we can hold them at the same time.And I think a big chunk or a big piece of our journey is learning to recognize, I'm holding these two things at, at the same time, but I can make a choice as to what one I'm really gonna lean into or acknowledge today at a higher level. Both are true, but I really wanna shift and, and focus on this, because I'm feeling good, I'm sensing that hope molecule, I'm carrying forward this redemption mindset. It's not saying that this isn't true or I'm not paying attention to it.

Yeah.

No, I am. It's there. But I'm choosing to, to elevate this one over that one.

Yeah. And, you know, one of our greatest strengths as human beings is our ability to choose the meaning that we make of different experiences. One of my favorite, um, studies that I came across, uh, asked women to think out loud while they were exercising, and there really were, like, two types of, uh, interpretations that women made of what they were feeling while they exercised. There was a type of interpretation like, "I'm breathing hard. That means I'm out of shape and I can't do this. I'm sweating. That means I'm gross." "Uh, my heart is pounding. That means I need to stop. This isn't for me." Like, that's sort of it, the, the really, the negative interpretation.And then there were other women who were, were interpreting those sensations like, "I'm sweating. This is amazing. I am working so hard, harder than I thought I could. My heart is pounding. That means I'm doing something good that's strengthening my heart. Um, I need to take a break. Wow." Like, to catch my breath. "I didn't even know I could work so hard that I had to, you know, real- I really had to stop and rest." And these different interpretations really alter both the enjoyment that you have while you move, but also how you feel about it afterwards. These interpretations, they start to change even your memory of the experience of movement, um, so that when you look back on it, you feel proud of yourself, you feel inspired about doing it again. You're more likely to talk about it with other people, rather than think that, like, this was a failure experience. You're more likely to tell other people about something that you enjoyed or a reason that you're proud of yourself. And so, you know, I, I think... I don't know. I've never actually tried talking out loud while I'm exercising. That adds a whole other level of cardio challenge to it. But it's definitely worth paying attention to the, the, the interpretations that you're making of what you're feeling, um, because I think, you know, many of us default to the least kind interpretations are often not accurate interpretations.

And you say, "Choose the meaning we make." I mean, it speaks of agency. I just love the intention you're talking about.

Hmm.

Well, and Charity, I'd, I'd love for you to share with us, if you're comfortable, and the reason I'm asking is 'cause I think you are.

Yeah.

I, I have seen you, and, and every member of our community has really seen you go on this, this mindset-shifting journey.

Yeah.

And Kelly, when you were saying talk out loud to yourself, right, as, as you're working out, Charity, you often share with us your internal thoughts, right, through, through posts that you make in the community.

Yeah.

Have you seen the benefits of holding these two things at the same time? And what, what impact has it made on your own life to, to be making these, these different decisions intentionally?

Absolutely. So we ta- you talked about the pillars bumping up one a- against one another. I do not belie- I believe they're completely holistic, that you actually don't have one without the other.And so the thing, the main thing that I benefited from in joining Bari Nation was the mindset. And I am very clear that if... And we're talking about that mindset, that meaning we could make about how we aren't just, uh, tossed to and fro in this world. We can choose our mindset. And if I didn't have Bari Nation and the things that... All of the support meetings, uh, for those of us that don't know, there are many, many support meetings you can go to and learn about how to hand work on your mindset and your bo- all of the pillars. And so that is the single most defining thing that ha- lent itself to my success. And, um, I can't, I just can't even emphasize enough how we... You know, mindset is the missing piece, as they say.

Mm-hmm.

We work, and the doctors, that's their job, to work on our bodies, and then things start happening to our bodies in very drastic, you know, accelerated, uh, you know, speeds, and all of what's going on, um, we need the mindset. Um, and I, my, my mind is completely rewired.Well, Kelly, would you explain, because I learned it from you and my counselor, who told me about you-

Yeah

... actually.

I think it, this, it's funny 'cause this also comes from my, my background working with people in pain. So, um, proprioception is our ability to sense ourselves internally. So one way you could sense yourself is to look in a mirror, right? And you're getting external feedback. Or another way you can sense yourself is in what other people tell you about yourself. But we also have an ability to literally sense inside of ourselves. Proprioception and interoception are different, like, ways of sensing ourselves, but if I asked you right now to notice if you're breathing, and you started to pay attention to your breathing, you can sense your breath from the inside, or you could place a hand somewhere on your body and know that you're breathing. If I asked you to, you know, close your eyes and move your arms into a shape, and then ask, you know, yourself not intellectually what position did you put your arms into, but can you sense your arms in space? Can you tell if your arms are straight or if your arms are totally bent? The reason that, that you c- if you can sense that, the reason you can sense that is you have all of these sensory receptors in your skin, in your connective tissue, in your muscles that are telling you about what's happening in your body, and it includes your, you know, your heart rhythms, your breathing, what's happening in your gut, and also, uh, the force of your muscles contracting, where you are taking up space.You know, we can think of this as very practical, like I need to know where my arm is in space so that I can pick up a glass of water. But the thing that I'm so interested in with proprioception is that proprioception often carries emotional meaning and, uh, metaphorical meaning, so that when you move your body in different ways, you get these signals sent to your brain that carry messages like, "I am strong. I am powerful. I am grounded. I am graceful. I am free. I am playful. I am beautiful. I have time to breathe." These, these states that matter. And one of the most effective ways to feel them as true is to feel them through your body. It's very hard to argue with sensory information. Like, if you were to pick up something heavy, your brain can't argue with the feeling of tension on your tendons to your bone that are helping you stabilize. You can't argue with the sensation from your core that feels itself bracing. And the brain knows how to interpret those signals pretty intuitively, because our ability to move with speed or with power or with stability or with playfulness, right? These are survival instincts. We need to be able to do these things, and so your brain knows how to interpret it. So the reason I think this is so wonderful is because movement can give you direct experiences of things that we, we don't always know to be true, but are true. That I can, like, literally, I can handle something harder than I thought I could, or I can put one foot in front of another even when there's part of me that feels too tired to do it. I can sense myself persisting. Or I feel so, like, overwhelmed in my life and so constricted, like I have no choices.

I don't have time to breathe, and then all of a sudden in a yoga class, I sense myself slowing down and breathing. Or, you know, in some sort of, you know, game that I'm playing or, you know, in a dance class, I suddenly feel myself breaking free of the constraints that I might have on how I'm allowed to be and what I'm allowed to do, and I sense that actually there, there is a possibility to be this way and feel this way.And so one of the ways that I think about how to choose what movement to do is to actually think about what you want to sense in your body, and get creative and investigate what are the movement forms, the modalities that are going to give you those direct sensations.

Wow. And, you know, we've talked about how when I was pre-op, I was probably largely dissociated from my body. Did not look in a mirror, would not look at pictures, or hopefully not even get pictures taken.And then when now I'm literally half my size, I'm explaining to my counselor, I don't-- I know that's my arm, it just doesn't feel, look like my arm. I, I'm clumsy. I, I bump into things. I don't understand my body, and my brain is confused.And she said, "Well, you know," and I can choose something like Zumba or yoga or I'm sure you've got some favorites. And I also just literally looked up proprioceptive exercises on YouTube and just started feeling... And I saw some of yours, you know. So...

And w- you know, there are many reasons, too, why people can be really disconnected from even these signals in the first place.So I, I mentioned I got interested in this with pain because one of the things that you learn to do to survive with pain is try to shut down signals from your body.

Mm-hmm.

So, you know, we were chatting beforehand about this fantasy I used to have that there was a version of me that was disembodied. Like, that would be the dream, to just- ... somehow be me-

Mm-hmm

... but there's no body attached to it.

Mm-hmm.

It doesn't make any sense. That's one of the things, you know, humans have to come to terms with, that it's, it's through this vessel of the body that we get to experience life.But, um, so one of the things, if you have for any reason a fantasy or desire about being this sort of disembodied version of you, like the true you is not attached to the body-

Mm-hmm

... um, it can be really-- you can get really good at not feeling even things like your breath, and it can become quite alarming to start to pay attention to your breath and actually feel it. Or, you know, like I think of so many people I've talked to who can't feel their feet. They're, like, literally-

Yeah

... their feet are on the ground. They take their shoes off, but they don't feel it.

Yeah.

Um, and there are so many signals we can try to block because they aren't necessarily pleasant signals, and then we start to block a lot, all of these channels. Which also can affect our ability to also process emotions, um- Because, you know, so much of the informational value of emotions comes from proprioception, feeling shifts in our heart rate, in our gut, in our breathing, even shifts in our, our hormones and our, our blood chemistry. And when we are used to not wanting to pay a lot of attention to that, it can even reduce our, our intuition and our ability to experience positive emotions like joy and love.So one of the reasons why I, I love the be- the proprioceptive benefits of movement is I also think it unlocks our ability to experience life through our body in the ways that we want to, like experiencing love through our bodies or experiencing other types of joy through our bodies.

I'm gonna say this now for everybody who is watching and listening and is, and has the disease of obesity. In the back of your mind, you're probably thinking the same thing I am, or you are feeling that anxiety wave start to build. Because for so long, I was a floating head. I was completely disconnected from my body. My body betrayed me. It deceived me. It never did what I asked it or wanted it to do. I was judged from it. Doctors shamed and blamed me, right, for my body.So when I made the decision to onboard bariatric surgery as my primary treatment, I started seeing a therapist who specialized in this. She was also a bariatric patient herself. And in my first session, she diagnosed me as a floating head, and I was like, "I don't understand what you're talking about," because it was such a foreign concept to me. M- my, my life was here. This thing, didn't talk to, didn't acknowledge, was constantly mad at, was fearful of, um, so I just chose to live, live up here. And what you're talking about, Kelly, is really trusting ourselves and, and our body enough to even open up a window of possibility that our body could help us along this journey. But there's a lot of fear, there's anxie- a lot of anxiety, there's a lot of distrust. So I know people watching and listening to this who have the disease of obesity are kind of feeling the same way I am when it comes to movement. Because the things that you talk about are exactly what we want in our life, but it is terrifying to even open the door of possibility that that could be a thing. So you're asking us to trust something that we've never trusted before and that has been a source of shame i- in our life.

You know, I used to teach this workshop called Befriending the Body, and, you know, we, I, we started talking about, like, the things you were talking about, this, the sense of being betrayed by your body. Um, and often the people in the room were, were coming at it from different reasons like new physical disabilities or chronic pain and illnesses.But I, I often started with the hands, and I just all- offer this up, um, for folks who really don't even know where to begin with the idea-

Mm

... that their body is something they could actually sense as a friend rather than as something to guard against or that you wish you could control better or get rid of, and have this disembodied experience of life. And we would do this exercise that starts with sensing the hands and looking at the hands, and thinking about activities in your life that your hands have been involved in. I've found that most people can think of a number of positive life experiences that come through the hands, um, whether it's work that you've done or creative activities that you've done or holding people's hands, uh, people you have given care to, expressing yourself through the hands.Maybe people are musicians. Um, maybe people cook. But there are people garden. Uh, m- people can often think of positive contributions and experiences through the hands, and I would take people through looking at the hands and thinking about those activities and experiencing a sense of, of just appreciation. Like, the... and, like, to be really grounded in it. This hand, this hand that I can touch, this hand that I can place on my body that can sense myself, uh, that I could feel my hands on my body in that way. Um, and to, to come to a place of the sense that if I value life and I value my potential to experience life and contribute, um, that it's through this vessel of the body that I get to do those things. And that mindset can extend to, into other types of activities. But I do, I feel like, you know, these beautiful-

That's beautiful

... beautiful hands that have been with you your whole life, you know?

Yeah.

They have never abandoned you. Even though it often feels like our body is betraying us, the truth is your body hasn't abandoned you yet, and I think there's something beautiful about that.

Wow.

I'm in support groups all the time, and we're all or nothing, we're people-pleasing, we're perfectionistic. We think, uh, you know, "Kelly said feel our bodies," and then we just, like, go in, all in, get burnt out, and never do it again.You know, or something. That's one possible scenario, and so I would just say ease into it. And then you said the hands thing is just so perfect.

Oh my God. Well, and I would invite all of us, if you're listening or watching, let, let's pause for a moment and really reflect on what Kelly asked us to.Right? When you look at your hands, w- what are the things that they have allowed you to do in life? What are, what are the experiences that you have had that are completely separated from your size, your shape, or, or your weight? Because y- you are absolutely correct. If, if we value life, and then you said if we value our potential, which I know everybody listening or watching does, it is safe enough for us to do wh- when we do it in, in, in a way that is safe for us, which is kind of in community. And I know it sounds terrifying, but when you're having these conversations with other people, that is a really safe place to do it. We are not buffering ourselves from the worst, but we're acknowledging that the worst is not going to destroy me because there's other people here to witness the work that I'm doing.

I'm so glad you asked about this. Every time I write a book, I have in my mind, I'm like, "There is an idea from science that if people understood it- ... would be such a radical shift, could reduce so much suffering. I'm gonna do what I need to do to just make this from something that people really do not know to something that people understand. And hope molecules was that thing for, um, for the joy of movement. So thank you for letting me try to share this idea.So here's the big idea. For a very long time, human biologists thought your muscles only existed to move your bones around and support your skeleton. That's what they do. But maybe 15 years ago or so, um, biologists realized that your muscles are endocrine organs. They make chemicals, and they store chemicals in your muscle tissue. And the chemicals that your muscles make are overwhelmingly exceptionally good for your physical health, for your metabolic health, for your immune function, for your cardiovascular health, and for your brain health. And your muscles make all of these different types of chemicals, and they wait for you to use your muscles to release them into your bloodstream. And I think they've identified now, you know, more than a dozen of these molecules that are released into your bloodstream from any type of movement, any type of muscle contraction, ones that kill cancer cells, ones that help you regulate blood sugar. But the ones that I'm most interested in, because, you know, as I mentioned at the beginning of, uh, this conversation, my primary goal as a psychologist is I want people to feel adequate to the challenges in their lives, to sense the value of their life, to feel hope, and to, um, to feel less alone, to feel that life is worth living. And some of the molecules that your muscles release when you engage in any type of movement or muscle contraction, they actually, um, are chemicals that can cross the blood-brain barrier and get into your brain and act almost like medication. So these are chemicals that make your brain more resilient to stress, can help the brain recover from things like trauma, grief, depression, uh, and that also sensitize your brain to pleasure and positive emotions, things like feeling connected to other people, feeling hope about life, enjoying things, feeling good about yourself. And these chemicals can even, like, restructure your brain so that you have more resilience and, and you have a better ability to engage with life in ways that, that feel positive and rewarding and satisfying. So there was one paper that was published in like, I don't know, 20, 2014, that called them hope molecules. And I was like, "That's the word."

Yes.

Because in that particular study, these chemicals that were released, um, were, um, helping the brain recover from trauma and, uh, resist depression and symptoms of, of severe trauma. Um, and I think... Like, so this is the big idea, the, that when you move your body and you use your muscles in any way, pushing, pulling, dancing, uh, you know, lifting, rowing, cycling, playing, playing sports, whatever it is you're doing with your muscles that is not being physically still, you're accessing this pharmacy that is part of your biology, that is not dependent on what you look like, what size you are, how old you are. You have this capacity, and every time you move, you are supporting your wellbeing at, at every physiological level, including, like, giving yourself an intravenous dose of hope that makes it easier to be alive and to want to be alive. And if you know that you're doing that when you move your body, I don't know, it really changes the whole idea of what we're doing it for.It doesn't have to be to fix your body. It doesn't have to be to-

Mm-hmm

... control your body. It's not about how many calories you're burning.It's like, it's like... And then it helps you start to feel a greater sense of appreciation for what your body can do for you. It's doing it for you, right? And, and again, as I said, it's not dependent on what your body looks like or how the objective level of, like, how athletic you are. You know, it really... The, the ability of your body, what it, what it really is responding to is engaging with life through your body.

April and I were talking about this, uh, podcast, and I was saying it's accessible. Hope-

Mm-hmm

... is accessible to every age, every height, every weight. All we have to do, Kelly said it, it's scientific. You just have to move your muscles, and hope is accessible to you.

And you-

Yes

... you had asked, you had sent, um, as a, a question ahead of time, um, to help me think about this a little bit, whether there was a smallest dose. And I, you know, I went back because it's been a few years since I did the, like the deep dive on the research, um, for the book, and I was like, "What are the absolute latest studies? Have there been more review papers, more meta-analyses?" And so, uh, here's what I wanna say about-- 'cause, 'cause I really believe in the message that, like as you said, this is accessible. The minute you go from absolute s- not doing anything to doing anything, that's the most important shift. And I, I include... You know, I always tell people, "Use, use your hands. Your face has a lot of muscles in it too," is that you use whatever parts of your body are willing to move today or can still move. Um, and then use your big movers if you can, your arms and your legs and your core. But I was trying to figure out, like, what do we know about dose and intensity? And, uh, the one thing that I can say from the research is when it comes to producing all of these amazing chemicals, there's a dose-response relationship. That's the one thing that seems to be ... clear. So when you go from nothing to something, you've crossed the barrier and you are engaging the system.And then often the more you do, whether it's walking a little bit further or doing something that's hard for you, so you're getting your heart rate up. It's not about, like, how fast you're, you're running. If your heart rate gets up very high from a slow walk, that-- it's the same effect. But there's something about doing something that is physically challenging for you that enhances the, the release of these hope molecules and myokines and exerkines, all the different words for it. And so I think, like, those are the two things that I, I hold onto as important insights. One is the most important shift is from nothing to anything, and anything is giving you access to this. And then at the same time, there's a pretty clear dose-response relationship, so that when you do for you what is a little bit longer or a little bit more or a little bit harder, that is a way to, to receive the benefits of this system more fully. And again, I think for people who are trying to find a motivation, like, you know, when I-- if I get tired after a couple of minutes or if I get tired after 20 minutes and I just really wanna stop, is there any part of me that is curious about, "Well, maybe I'll just see what it feels like if I can go a little bit further." Or if I'm reluctant to let my heart rate get up too high 'cause I don't like how it feels, and it's probably safe for me, but I just don't like how it feels, well, maybe this would be another motivation to be like, "Okay, I'm willing to see what it feels like to go breathless where I have to stop, because that's part of me letting my body support me in this way." And it can also change partly how we interpret sensations like being tired afterwards, um, that it may be a sign that you were giving this, allowing your body to give this gift to you.

The harder for you just compounded the accessibility for me right now, because I remember being, having, uh, revision surgery, and then I was at baseline movement-wise, and we were having a huge movement challenge, April, in the platform at the time, and I couldn't. I was at baseline.And so I got my little tracker, and I just decided to call it good if I walked for five minutes that day intentionally.

Yes.

And that was maybe hard for me, maybe more in my mind than my body, but that was hard for me, and then I would just say, "Check it off as good," even though I wasn't doing the prescribed thing. For us to walk into a gym is so hard.

Mm-hmm.

Then to walk into a class is monumentally hard. And I was telling my counselor, "I never-- I'm an introvert. I'm an extreme introvert that struggles with obesity. I never imagined that I would enjoy classes.What's going on?" And that's when she told me about the community aspect of-

Mm

... exercise.

Quick pause to say thank you to our donors, Johnson & Johnson and the Texas Center for Bariatrics and Advanced Surgery. Their support allows us to keep this podcast and other support for people managing obesity going forward.

I wanna follow up on a couple of things. One thing I wanna mention is, 'cause I've, I've already said in this interview that I teach dance almost every day or multiple classes a day, um, but there have been periods of my life due to physical challenges and also grief where I had to reset everything. There was a period in, in my life where I couldn't get through three minutes. One three-minute song, I physically couldn't do it, and I had to give myself permission. I said, "I want to be able to dance again, so I am going to be miserable for three minutes." Like, just, "Gosh, why is it so hard? Why can't I do this?" It was like my brain wouldn't even let me move, the grief was so severe, that I, I s- I'm gonna do this because I fundamentally believe that the process of doing it is going to be part of how I become able to do more, and I'm able to re-access the pleasure of it and the community of it and the meaning of it, even if right now all I'm able to do is at home on my own try to get through a three-minute song of simple movements.And the, the idea we haven't talked about yet that I think is, is particularly important for people who are starting, um, to become more active is that the brain naturally rewards movement, but not at first. But it, like, it seems to require a certain level of commitment to give you things like a runner's high, which is-- doesn't require running, just requires being physically active to some moderate degree where you just, you go. You just keep going for, you know, 15, 20 minutes. Um, but for your brain to give you the reward of dopamine, endorphins, endocannabinoids, for most people, if they haven't been active and they start, they are not-- typically they do not get the high that they've heard about. They may just feel tired and worse, uh, after their, their initial attempt to exercise. And it takes about six weeks for the brain to kinda restructure itself and re-understand what movement means to start paying off and giving you this high where you actually, while you're moving, you start to feel better, and it persists afterwards, and you feel more hopeful about life, and there's less pain in your body, not more pain in your body, and you have more energy and more confidence, and all those things you might have heard other people say about exercise but has never been true for you. And that's why it's so important to give yourself a lot of grace when you get started, to understand that your brain isn't broken, but it often requires a certain level of experience and commitment to begin to, to shift into this way of relating and rewarding you for movement, and to find other aspects of a movement experience that, um, that you value that can bridge that gap. ... like spending time with someone you care about or being in nature. For me, it's always been music. Uh, my brain is more likely to respond to music than anything else in terms of giving me some dopamine or some endorphins. Or if maybe for you, you're a competitive person and you need a little competition in there to get the dopamine going.

Um, but to look for ways of moving that, that bridge that gap, and to understand that actually there's a transformation that happens over time that, again, isn't necessarily dependent on your physical fitness, and definitely is not dependent on your size, but is more about your commitment to a specific type of movement that your brain learns to really reward you for.

W- we, we have a saying in, in Bari Nation called space and grace, and I feel that's exactly what, what, what you're talking about here. But also, th- that, that six-week mark, I'm so thankful that you said that.I have been banging my head against the wall when it comes to movement. I started working out, I started lifting weights. I was, I was feeling good. I, I was kind of having this cost-benefit analysis that was going in my head, and then life happened. I went on a trip, and I just have not gotten back to it, and I'm beating myself up over not getting back to it.

Mm.

And I'm saying some horrible things up here. But what you've given me today, right, it's that hope molecule. It's that, the, the difference between nothing to anything is the dose, and that persistence in, i- in having the, the, the curiosity to say, "What, what would happen if I just lifted a heavier weight this one time," right? G- giving myself permission to go, this is an experiment. This is not a commitment.This is you just figuring out that that capability, uh, that is accessible for you, you're too afraid to run the risk of maybe not being able to do it. But again, running that cost-benefit analysis to saying, "What is the cost of me not figuring out if I can lift that heavier weight?" Right? Is, is there, is there a benefit to just trying it?

Mm.

I mean, all of these things that you've talked about today are creating a beautiful circle that movement helps us live in, this, this protective circle that taps us into the joy and the hope and the, and the possibility for our life.

Mm. And Charity, I realize that I-- you started to talk about community, and that was one of the things I was going to come back to, but then I got, I got a little carried away with, uh, you know, talking about how the brain takes some time to, to adapt.Um, but should we come back to community?

Please, yes.

One of the reasons why I personally love movement is because, um, human beings have some natural, natural capacities related to moving together to support some of the greatest, uh, greatest aspects of human nature. So things like cooperation, um, celebration, feeling close, belonging.There's something about moving in synchrony with other people or towards a shared goal, where when people move together and, and it's a positive environment... I mean, there's a lot of things, you know, it can't, it c- there has to be a, a certain level of positive warmth towards one another-

Mm-hmm

... like a kind of a pro-social intention about the space. Um, but when you physically move together, whether it's something as simple as clapping your hands or dancing or moving through a yoga flow or rowing, or you're in a, a, an environment where people are doing different exercises like physical therapy, but in a space where everyone is doing something that hurts and is hard, but is important for their journey, when you're moving together, it unlocks the social brain in a way that, um, drops some of our armor and increases our sense of being part of a collective, a positive collective, increases our sense of not being alone, um, increases how much we like and trust other people and feel accepted and welcomed. And just it's, it's, um, for, so for people who have social anxiety or avoidant attachment, you know, I'm talking about myself, um, or who have really, um, felt a lot of judgment, social conflict, cynicism, societal cynicism, all these things that can get in the way of feeling like I, I can be myself and be with other people and feel good about that, feel hopeful about humanity, and good about myself. All those things that can become barriers, they dissolve under like the evolutionary pressure of when you move together with a positive purpose with other people, it just makes you a more social, trusting, um, version of yourself.Many years ago, I was involved in a study that was originally designed to test whether mindfulness would be helpful for people with social anxiety, and they needed a control condition. Like, what else could we make people do in a group that we don't think will really help them? 'Cause we really wanna demonstrate that mindfulness helps. Uh, what could we make them do that's not too expensive? We got a little money to pay for it. And they, they decided group fitness, and my job was to help people with social anxiety figure out what class they could go to and work out or move with other people. And man, it was hard just to get these people to talk to me to ha- obviously, I mean, if you, 'cause you had mentioned, you know, some social-

Mm-hmm

... and I have had s- a lot of social anxiety. So like even just getting people to talk to me to then let alone go do the group fitness class, I was convinced this is gonna be such a failure.It's not even gonna be a control condition 'cause nobody's gonna do it. And actually, it ended up being more effective than the mindfulness, uh, group.

Wow.

That there is for... And, and you know, it's like the last thing that people with social anxiety wanted to do. But one of the great things about movement experiences is- There are rules. There is, there is a set thing that you are doing. You are guided through it. You're not left alone in a room full of people where you have to figure out what to do and how to do it, and it's so unpredictable.And in general, people are rewarded for being better versions of themselves than being really, like, hostile or unhelpful versions of themselves. And this is true whether you're like, you know, doing a Couch to 5K training group, or you're going to a, a class at a gym or a studio. And these are not things that you necessarily have to do, but I do think that a lot of people who suspect that I would never do this and I would never enjoy it, that sometimes there's actually something so magical about the fact that you are moving your body with other people, and there are a lot of constraints in place in a lot of places to make it a positive experience. If you can find that, it is a particular type of medicine, and it, it's why I love teaching, um, community dance classes.

That was me, and I have a super quick 20-second story. I got the nerve to go to Zumba, and then we were in between songs, and this woman, who obviously didn't speak, you know, English, she says, "It's good.You're good." And I said, "Oh, there's just so many moves. My mind has so many moves to learn." And she said... She didn't even know I was an overthinker, and she goes, "Can you turn your mind off for a little bit?" And I mean, I can only imagine the chemical reactions that were going through my mind in that moment, the community, and the thought, and the truth, and the wisdom, and, uh, the, the surrender. And yeah, it was a beautiful moment I'll never forget.

Y- you, you have lived it, Charity, and, and I know many of us watching and listening have, have lived it as well.When we open up the possibility of community into our life in any facet, we unlock something that we didn't think was possible for us.

Mm.

And it becomes the key to it all. It's sure hard to get there. We, we understand that. But-

Yeah

... th- this conversation is proving just what a critically important element it is, uh, to, to, to having the life that we knew was always available for us, but we just couldn't figure out how to get it.

And, you know, it can be transformational in, in surprising ways, too. You know, when I first started, um, teaching group movement experiences, so I was in my early 20s, and I had just a, I was really used to being afraid of other people and really closed off, like not wanting to make eye contact, assuming people were thinking the worst of me, didn't want me there. And when I started teaching group fitness, I, I had this experience, there were more people looking at me in accepting, like neutral, accepting, or positive ways. And it just was such a shock to be in a room where my general experience was people are somewhere between neutral to really happy that I'm here and, and in this environment, that I would be out on the street and I'd find myself smiling at people. And this... Like, that may sound dumb, but, like, that was huge for me.Like, oh my gosh, I'm smiling at people who, do I know them? Maybe I, may know them. Maybe they're a stranger. But it was such a, like a form of vulnerability, and that, you know, felt like courage. But, uh, again, I think that when I, you know, when I was writing, um, when I was talking to people about, asking people about really transformational movement experiences, and I kept hearing so many stories about community. Again, the, you know, the thing that just kept coming back is that people were often very surprised what it was like to be in a supportive movement community. And I, I, I can't, I can't say this enough that I know it's not always gonna be the first community you try, that there is a sorting process.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and it can, you can have some disappointing experiences before you find a movement community that feels like the right match for you. But people talk about feeling like they can be their true selves or that who they are is valued in ways they don't experience anywhere else.There are opportunities to help people and be helped at the very same time.

Mm.

Even just little stuff like people asking for advice on what sneaker you're wearing, or helping someone put their weights away, or being the person who slows down for the new person who's having a hard time keeping up with the pack, and so you slow way down and walk with them. Or you are the person who gets, who doesn't get left behind.There's something, people are good versions of themselves-

Yes

... in supportive movement communities, so.

Yep. We, we see that, uh, mirrored in, in our own community, right? E- with movement, but with every aspect of life. And I, I think the reason that we are all so passionate about Bari Nation and, and what we've built is for so long we worked to be invisible in the world, right? Because we were so physically visible. We took up space that we didn't wanna to take up, and we, we were seen in a way that we didn't wanna be seen. So we worked overtime to, to shrink ourselves and, and to make ourselves invisible, even though we were oftentimes the biggest person in the room. So to understand that along our obesity health journey, we become visible in ways that we anticipated and also ways that we didn't anticipate. And to have a, a, a place and a community that we can go and grow into that visibility in kind, safe, compassionate ways was needed and necessary. I, I, I think that's, that's why I started to do what I, what I did way, way back in the day.I realized, oh, visibility is now gonna be a part of life. And, uh, and I didn't know that it was at the time, but, but it is now. And I needed that safe place to go, and I couldn't find it, so I just decided I'm just gonna create what, what I need, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna be a little bit brave, because that was an area of my life that I could be. And exactly what you're talking about now demonstrates the critical importance of that. We all have to- ... find that space to become a little bit more visible. But once we do, we unlock a part of our lives that we wanted desperately for so long, and we finally can step into. And it's wonderful, and it's, it's life-giving, and it's, it's joy-fulfilling, but it's also scary, and it's intimidating, and it takes a lot of practice. So I appreciate you saying y- you gotta try on these spaces where you feel safe, and, and it's okay that you do, and it's okay that some don't fit. But they're out there, you just have to keep trying.

And I think that, you know, it can be more painful. So I, I mentioned the very similar mindset with, like, it's okay to... You said, like, to lift a heavier weight, and it's okay if you can't.

Yes.

Um, but it feels more painful when it's, you can go into a public space and test whether it's possible to- that you will be welcomed there, and if you have an experience where you do not feel welcome there, you don't... It's just not the right fit physically or emotionally, it actually often is more painful than having a, an experience where you just couldn't do the exercise. But it's consistent with the, you know, how we started this conversation, that you have to decide that you are willing to tolerate these experiences in the service of something that's meaningful to you, or the possibility of something that's meaningful to you, and also to understand that you can't protect yourself from the core pain of that experience by trying to exclude certain instances of it.Like that, that core pain of going into a place and feeling like you aren't welcomed or you didn't belong, or feeling criticized, yeah, maybe you can protect yourself from that by never going into a movement space. But you can't actually protect yourself from that in life.

Mm.

And so sometimes I think we, we try to protect ourselves in the few things we actually feel like we can control.

Mm.

But they often, the things that we can control are sometimes the things that actually have the biggest potential to be transformative. And so if you give up on the hope that you can protect yourself from that experience all the time, then maybe it's, you know, you feel a little bit more willing to take that risk in the service of something that, that you want.

And bringing it back to perspective, so I spent my entire adult life saying to myself, "I don't fit." From, from airplane, uh, seats, to social situations, to gyms, and to clothing.Now when I put on a pair, a piece of clothing, I don't say, "I don't fit," I say, "It doesn't fit me."

Mm-hmm.

And so if we can go into it with that mindset, like even finding a gym or a community exercise experience, um, I would've always gone in and said, "Oh, I don't fit in the gym."

Mm-hmm.

Leave, never come back. Instead, thinking, "Okay, this doesn't fit me.Which one d- let's find which one does." I say it in j- kind of in jest, like, "Oh, there's nothing wrong with me, there's something wrong with that dress 'cause it doesn't fit."

Mm-hmm.

But I mean it, there's something wrong for me.

Yeah.

And so if we can go into that mindset of what's right for me, rather than I don't fit anywhere-

Mm-hmm

... and I'm the wrong person.

Mm.

No, we just need to find what's right for me.

And you know, I realize there's one thing we haven't talked about, which I would love to raise as sort of the, is to really broaden also your understanding of what a movement community could be or what movement could be. And there's an example I, I like to give, 'cause it connects to my values, so this won't necessarily be for everyone.But often the image of exercise is, like, get on a treadmill and walk or run.

Mm.

And maybe distract yourself with something else, like watching Netflix or listening to music. But it's, it's kind of like not a lot of people are looking forward to that experience.But there's this program called Ruff Tail Runners where you can, um, register as a volunteer for an animal shelter, and you can take a dog that is living in the shelter and wants to be adopted, you can take it out for a walk or a run in a nearby, uh, lake and park. This is in Austin, Texas. And, uh, and I think about, like, what that is and what that gives you that could be different from being on a treadmill thinking that you hate it and can't wait for it to be over, is you are doing something that m- might for you be consistent with your values. Like those poor dogs in cages, they need to play, they need to be out, they need nature in order to be the best versions of themselves so that somebody will give them a home. They deserve to have a life and to be loved. And so when you take them out for a walk or a run, you are helping them be the version of themselves who is happy to be alive and is more likely to get adopted and have a home. Maybe someone's gonna see you out on a walk or a run, and you can talk about, "This is a dog you could adopt." Uh, so there's that aspect, that what you're doing is intrinsically good. It is connecting you to a community that involves movement, but you'll get to spend time in the shelter, you get to know other volunteers. When you're out in a park and you have a dog, people tend to be nicer to you. They're more interested in you. It's easier to meet people. Um, and so you, you may feel that how people interact with you also changes in a positive way. You're both getting, like, the, the benefits of movement. And I just think, like, that is such a great example of, it's not the first thing people think about when I'm gonna start to become more active. But there are just endless versions like that where the point isn't exercise, the point is to do something, and that something involves using your body, and there are other values and benefits and motivations that can drive that, and other rewards for doing it than the, the metrics we usually think about with exercise. So just leave that as a, an example that might inspire people to be more creative.

Sharon and I are both like, our, our, our hearts, our minds, every, like, we are exploding with, with possibility and, and hope. Th- this is the conversation that so many of us n- needed to have, right?And, and that example, Kelly, takes us from nothing to something. Right? Nothing to anything. And when we take a step back and we widen what movement could look like in our lives, it opens up the, the possibility to trigger that hope hormone that we were talking about, right?

Mm-hmm.

To get to understand our physical, uh, place i- in the world, to, to help with that cost-benefit, uh, analysis, right? A- all of these things are, are, are circular to being able to access the life that we've always wanted to. And when we take a step back and look at this from our obesity lens, the disease of obesity makes it really hard for us to access that hope, really hard to access that possibility, really hard to do a lot of things in life.But what this conversation is proving for, for me and I think for Charity and for, for all of us listening and watching, this is the work that we have to do to treat the disease of obesity, right? There is a cost to that. We're gonna have to be uncomfortable. We're, we're, we're gonna have to acknowledge that we do have a body, and it takes up place i- in this world. Uh, we're gonna have to open ourselves up to, to, to shame, to shame or to blame or, or to other people. But the, the benefit of doing that work is what you have been searching for your entire life. It is belonging. It is a sense of purpose. It is understanding that, that you offer a value to this world, and that value is needed right now.

Mm-hmm.

And movement can be the thing that helps us get to the place that we want to go.

Wow, beautiful.

I, I knew this conversation would be transformational. I knew this conversation would be powerful, but the word that keeps bubbling up to the top for me right now is tectonic, in the best way.So you know after an earthquake-

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm

... sometimes it has the ability to shift the landscape forever. Nothing is ever gonna be the same.I feel like this conversation in movement is going to be tectonic for a lot of people. Because once you've heard or listened and watched, you're never going to un-hear these things. And I know I'm leaving with pieces of information that I needed that will shift my life forever when it comes to movement. I, I mean, I... That, that's the only word that, that really feels the most truthful, uh, f- for me in this moment. Charity, how about you? What, what are you leaving with?

My heart is full. I, I just... I've learned so many things, Kelly. Uh, with all the hours and hours of interviews I've watched and the book I read, I've still learned as many things as I knew when I joined. So thank you.Thank you for investing in this community. It is so near and dear to my heart, and I, I hope you see, um, the value that you'll bring to all of us watching to- and listening today.

Yeah. Thank you.I really appreciate that you thought that I would have something of value to share, and I really hope anyone who's still listening to this, that you heard something that, that gives you hope, or maybe you already knew but you needed to hear again.

Mm-hmm. Uh, friends, if you're watching or listening and you are leaving with something new, i- if, if there was something that went aha or clicked or r- really is i- is asking you to rethink maybe your, your thoughts, your decisions, your actions, let us know in the comments.And if there is a question that you would like to ask Dr. McGonigal about anything that we talked about today or pieces of her work that we touched on, leave it in the comments. Send us an email, [email protected]. We'd love to pass those on. And Dr. McGonigal, you have an open invitation to join us any time in the future to continue these conversations, because it is the learning that this community needs to unlock what lies ahead for them. Thank you.

And go, go pre-order her book. Joy-

Oh.

Say again. Joy, Joy Is a Risk Worth Taking?

Oh.

Is that it?

Joy Is a Risk Worth Taking.

Oh.

Yeah.

How does it-

October 2026. Let's go.

Let's go. Uh, Charity and I were reading what's available on Amazon, so we both pre-ordered it.We're very excited for, for the book to, to, to come in, and when we read the title, it gave us one of those, oh, it, it is a worth, a worth, a risk worth taking. It can be hard to do as somebody who fights with obesity.

Yeah.

But can you give us a little sneak peek or a little, uh, view into what that book is about?

Yeah. Well, so, so joy is the uplift you feel in any moment that connects you to something that makes life worth living. It's a, just a fundamental emotional capacity, and I got really interested in it, you know, 10 years ago or so. And one of the things that I found starting to talk to people about this amazing human capacity we have is that a lot of people do not trust the feeling of joy, that it's a very vulnerable state, that, you know, people feel like, "Maybe, uh, I don't deserve to be happy.If I let myself feel too good, I'm setting myself up to feel worse later when things change. Maybe the universe will punish me for allowing myself to be this happy. Um, people will judge me. Maybe it's not ethical to be joyful when there's so much suffering in the world. If I let myself focus on joy, I'm not paying attention to what could go wrong." Just so many reasons that joy, even though it's meant to be this, like, existential resource, that in a moment when you can delight in something beautiful or recognize that you are appreciated as a human being or when you, uh, y- you know, just experience something that you enjoy and love, you did something you're proud of, you feel close to someone else, all these things that can give us joy. For many reasons, people in that, that moment shut down, or they don't even give themselves permission to want it and choose it and share it with others. And so, you know, the, the book is basically I am g- I'm gonna make a hard case for the value of joy as something to embrace and trust, and some very, like, strategic ways to experience more joy in life and bring joy to other people so that they have a sense of mattering and belonging and hope. So that's what that's. That's that book. Coming soon.

Oh, my goodness. Your, your, your work has, uh, changed how many of us, uh, move throughout the world. It has given us access to parts of our life that we didn't think were available. So your book will join the catalog of resources that we continue to look towards and rely on and learn from each and every day.A- and if that is, uh, something that you listening and watching think, "I could use a little bit more of that", we now have an upcoming resource to help us do just that. Oh. Dr. McGonigal, if people would like to connect with you, where can they do so?

Uh, my website is kellymcgonigal.com. And I- they always tell me not to admit this, but I do tend to read my DMs on Instagram, so...

And I know this to be true because-

Please don't send anything awful.

But friends, I g- I- I am living proof of this. I responded to an email.I- I'm on Dr. McGonigal's email list, and she wrote an email and it obviously resonated me and I responded, I replied and I said, "Oh, I w- would you be open to joining us on a podcast?" Not realizing th- that she was actually reading it. She was. She responded with a like-

Yeah, I have no team. It's just me. So if you, if you write to me, I'll get it.

Oh.

But be kind.

Yeah, exactly.

The, the-

Nobody's filtering these things for me

... Oh, my goodness. So friends, I- I'm telling you, ta- take the risk, right? Cost benefit, the, the, the... Do, do that and, and the... w- what could be waiting on the other side of you is a very meaningful inter- interaction with the amazing Dr. McGonigal.So n- know that she is there to, to read your questions, to answer your questions and, and to help you navigate this. Uh, thank you, Kelly, for joining us. This conversation again has just f- far and beyond exceeded our expectations and we're just so thankful that, uh, you, you gave your time to, to have these conversations on this platform. We very much appreciate you.

Thank you for having me.

All right, friends. If this episode resonated with you, please share it with somebody else who you think needs to know.If there are questions that you'd like to follow up with, drop them in the comments or send us an email. Uh, and just know that you've got this, we've got you, and we'll see you in the nation soon.Bye, friends.

This episode was made possible by donations from Johnson & Johnson, the Texas Center for Bariatrics and Advanced Surgery, and listeners and viewers just like you. To donate and keep the production of this podcast going, visit barination.org. Thanks for joining us. This podcast is a proud production of the Bari Nation Foundation, a 501[c]3 nonprofit.

Our mission is to advance metabolic wellness for those living with the disease of obesity by bringing you evidence-based education, stigma-free support, and meaningful connections in the exact moments that shape your daily life.

A quick reminder that the information discussed in this episode is not medical advice. Be sure to speak with your personal medical provider about your specific health needs.Thank you for listening or watching, and we'll catch you on the next episode.