The Digital Accessibility Podcast – Jane Abbott (Episode 26)

In this episode of The Digital Accessibility Podcast, Joe welcomes back Jane Abbott, Managing Director of PCR Digital and Founder of Welldone Consulting, a new consultancy dedicated to Mobile App Accessibility.

Jane returns to the podcast to discuss why mobile accessibility now demands its own specialist focus, and how years spent recruiting accessibility talent, advising organisations, and working closely with designers and engineers led her to launch Welldone Consulting. With deep insight into both the commercial realities of product teams and the practical challenges of accessibility delivery, Jane offers a grounded, strategic view of where mobile accessibility is today — and where it needs to go next.

We discuss:

1. From recruitment to consultancy: How Jane’s long-standing work in web and digital accessibility highlighted a growing gap in mobile expertise, and why a consultancy model is the right next step.
2. Why mobile accessibility is different: The key differences between web and native mobile accessibility, including platform-specific considerations across iOS and Android.
3. What makes Welldone Consulting different: A focused, specialist approach to mobile accessibility, faster turnaround times, clearer commercial alignment, and hands-on expertise rather than generic audit-only services.
4. Barriers faced by teams: The most common challenges product managers, designers, and engineers face when trying to build accessible mobile apps — from skills gaps to organisational mindset.
5. The future of mobile accessibility: Jane’s vision for how mobile accessibility should mature, and what needs to change for inclusive mobile experiences to become the norm rather than the exception.

Jane also shares why mobile accessibility shouldn’t be treated as an afterthought or a checkbox, but as a core part of building high-quality, inclusive digital products for a global audience.

Follow Jane Abbott:

1. LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/janeabbott/

Follow Joe James:

1. LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joeajames/
2. Twitter (X): https://twitter.com/A11yJoe
3. YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@PCRDigital

Visit PCR Digital:

1. https://www.pcrdigital.com/

Welcome back to the Digital Accessibility Podcast.

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If you're looking to learn more about the field of

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accessibility,

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how to implement it within your role or your company,

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or to get advice on where to start or see how others have

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navigated complex issues that you may find along the way,

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then you're in the right place.

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I'm honoured to be able to share these insightful chats

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with thought leaders,

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advocates and practitioners of digital accessibility

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throughout this podcast,

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and I hope you'll find it a useful resource.

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As always,

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thank you so much for listening and I hope you've enjoyed

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the chat.

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Today's guest is another familiar face to those who know me

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and have listened to the podcast from the very beginning.

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With deep roots in the tech recruitment world and a growing

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influence on how accessibility is understood,

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valued and resourced in organisations,

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I'm joined by Jane Abbott,

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Managing Director of PCR Digital,

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a B Corp certified technology recruitment partner and now

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the founder of a new consultancy focusing on mobile app

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accessibility.

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Well done consulting.

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Jane spent over two decades in recruitment,

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taking on leadership of PCR Digital in 2017 and helped the

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company grow while building a reputation for ethical people

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first resourcing.

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Her involvement in digital and accessibility hiring,

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including setting up what became one of London's largest

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accessibility meetup groups,

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has given her a unique vantage point on the challenges

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organisations face when making their products truly

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inclusive.

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In this episode we're going to narrow in on mobile

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accessibility, exploring why it's important,

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how it's different from web accessibility,

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the barriers teams can encounter and where Jane thinks the

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future is heading.

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So long intro, sorry about that,

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but welcome to the podcast, Jane.

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It should be welcome back, Joey.

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Thank you so much.

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This is my second time.

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Yeah, well, I couldn't have done another one without you,

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to be honest, and lots to update on.

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But yeah,

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you've supported this the whole way through and yeah,

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big movements being made.

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So very interested.

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I really appreciate you having me on here again.

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So thank you.

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Of course.

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So how working within web accessibility led you to sort of

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founding a mobile accessibility consultancy?

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As mentioned there,

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you've been working in tech recruitment for a while now.

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And over the years,

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your focus turned increasingly towards the accessibility

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space.

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So hiring for accessibility skills and awareness.

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But can you share with the listeners a bit more about why a

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new approach is needed by way of a consultancy model and

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why it's such a needed step forward in the UK and the

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global market?

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Yeah,

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I think there's kind of loads of reasons why I've done

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this, but I'm going to start with the people first of all.

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So you're in,

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like we were building networks of web accessibility people

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for years.

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And then a few years ago,

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you were getting more demand for mobile accessibility

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professionals.

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And it was just really hard to find people.

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And kind of through what you've done mostly and what PTR

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has done,

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I think another network has been created of mobile

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accessibility experts.

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And I just thought it'd be really good if those skills

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could be sort of used within a consultancy.

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We talk about, you know,

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working in accessibility is quite a lonely place.

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I kind of imagine that this consultancy will have these

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mobile accessibility experts who can all kind of be part of

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a group of associates who can all share and, you know,

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bolster everyone up really,

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because I think it's such a lonely place.

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So that was one kind of like, oh,

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I really like that side of it.

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Two,

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I think there's a real gap in the market for just mobile

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accessibility consultancy.

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I think the big consultancies out there are probably

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delivering web and mobile accessibility,

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but they might be struggling to find the really good

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accessibility engineers,

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the mobile accessibility engineers.

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And then I think the smaller consultancies are probably

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mainly doing web.

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And I just think that we're a mobile first world.

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You know,

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most people will go onto their mobile phone when they're

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having any digital interaction.

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They might end up going online to buy it or something,

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but we're all using our mobiles first.

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And I don't think there's a real focus on making apps

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accessible.

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So I think that's the gap in the market.

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There's also been new legislation with the European

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Accessibility Act,

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which is going to make it that you have to have a mobile

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app.

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That's not going to affect the UK,

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but it's anyone who's got apps being used across Europe.

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So there's kind of lots and lots of reasons.

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And I just think it needs to be done.

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I just think everyone is focusing on the web.

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And I just think there's a real need for us to be focusing

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on the mobile stuff.

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Does that answer your question?

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I think so.

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I think it is an interesting one.

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I think there's a misconception at times in the market that

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accessibility is accessibility or a mobile phone has

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accessibility features.

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So it's just built in.

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So I think the misconception is,

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why would I need to do anything when there's features on a

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phone that can make things more accessible for people?

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But I guess we'll dive into that a little bit more as the

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chat goes on.

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But I think it's a great idea.

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I love the community aspects.

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Obviously, it's a great community already,

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a lot of sharing and things happening.

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But it does still feel quite lonely for a lot of people

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because there's so many larger companies with very small

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accessibility teams or even just one person doing it.

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So I think that aspect would really,

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really help in the market.

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Yeah.

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And I think there's lots of, there's, you know,

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in our world, we work with a lot of the big companies.

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And like you say,

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there might just be one accessibility person even in a big

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company.

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But there's all of those companies who are out there who

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are small companies building apps who just kind of can only

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go by what they know.

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They don't have those speciality skills or anything.

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And I think it's just in time, I hope by what, you know,

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Well Done is doing, it will just become the norm.

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That's a huge thing to say that we're going to make that

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happen.

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But it is that, you know,

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if you don't know about it and you're not including it,

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then you'll never know.

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But I think by promoting it and showing what the big

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businesses are doing and things,

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it would be amazing if it does become the norm.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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Or even just being a part of that journey towards making

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the world more accessible for more people as well.

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I think it would be super helpful.

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And you know, shoot for the stars and you'll hit the moon.

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I think that's quite.

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Yeah.

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I can dream.

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I can dream.

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I mean, it's again, it's all stuff in the right direction,

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which is great.

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Yeah.

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So yeah,

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so bringing the best thought leaders in mobile app accessibility

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together is just going to be fantastic.

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But could you speak a bit more about what WellDone is or

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will be offering that's a bit different from the larger

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consultancy model?

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I guess they provide a broader audit style consultancy

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service usually.

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Yeah,

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I think I don't know many people who work in big consultancies,

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so I might be making sort of, you know, these statements.

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But I think for big consultancies, for them,

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they have to make money.

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It's like win the business, stay there, you know,

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and then find other things to do.

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There are some really, really good consultancies out there.

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And I really respect the people who work in them who kind

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of go in and what they want to do is help that business

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become almost independent in what they're doing.

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So they can bring in the experts,

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they can show them what to do,

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and then they can help put in mentoring and training,

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and then they can come out of that business.

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And I think that's the sort of consultancy that well done

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will be.

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I think so few companies will have these skills.

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And with a good network of associates,

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you can go in and really help businesses solve their unique

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problems.

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So even though there's processes in place of how we work,

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it's not going to be prescriptive because every business is

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going to have different needs.

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I think the other thing that can be done is some quick wins

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quite quickly with mobile apps.

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There are a few really quite basic things that can be

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implemented that will help those in the business to say,

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oh my goodness,

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that has made a difference and that is a better user

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experience or, you know, what those changes might do.

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And I think they're quite cost effective to get those done,

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but it's almost like a bit of an education.

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These are the quick wins.

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I can't bear the word audit as well,

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because I just think everyone who's having these audits,

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it's, you know, it is that, yes, okay,

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we've had our audit done now.

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We can say we've had our audit done and we'll do one or two

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fixes.

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But I think it's about looking at where you want your app

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to be working and what you want from making it accessible

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as much as anything else.

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And I think legislation will impact how that's done.

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But I think for companies in the UK,

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I think it's going to be much more of the business rewards

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that you get from making your app accessible.

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So I just think we're not going to be prescriptive.

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I think there'll be a set of processes that we work

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through.

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And I think at the end of the day,

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it's about bringing your team or your developers or whoever

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it might be up to a certain level so that well done can

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exit.

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And it might be for really big jobs.

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I think it's, you know,

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if you're reverse engineering an app, not engineering,

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what's the word I mean?

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Retrospectively.

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Yeah, retrospectively.

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If you're going in and doing that,

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I think that is a big job.

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But I think there's still some quick wins that you can

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start to put in place and be talking about in the business

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and sharing that information as well.

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Yeah,

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I think a lot of the talk in accessibility in general is

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the whole shift left and you have to have it baked in from

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the start.

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But it's kind of rocking a hard place, I think,

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in some aspects where companies,

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large companies that have successful applications anyway,

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or products and services that are still successful,

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their hands will be a bit tired.

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So they'll say, well, we have got something that works,

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something that is making us money,

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but we do want to make it more accessible.

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But starting from scratch and baking in accessibility from

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the start is no longer an option.

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So it is kind of,

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there are those where you have to identify, okay,

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we're going to have to sort of retrofit and yeah,

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work backwards a bit.

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But hopefully the thing that will make a difference is,

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I mean, ever since I started this idea,

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I've been looking for the data around mobile apps that are

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accessible to show, you know,

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were they just made accessible and how, you know,

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what's the data about their users compared to a competitor

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that is not accessible,

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for example.

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And it's really, really hard to get that data.

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But I think well done wants to really be have the

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commercial business case in place by measuring as much as

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we can.

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I don't think it's the easiest thing to do.

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I think there's, you know, all other reasons.

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You know, you could sort of say, oh my gosh,

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we've grown the users from X to Y in six months.

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And that could be actually because there was a massive

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marketing campaign, which really increased the users.

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But I think trying to do some measuring as well to show the

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changes and what effect they've had will be another way of

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helping to kind of promote accessibility.

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Because when, you know, if the data is telling you that,

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you know,

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you have got a bigger share of the market or you have,

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you know,

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more on mobile purchases than the previous quarter,

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I think it's going to make a real difference.

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Yeah, I think it will.

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You will start to see.

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Like you say,

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it's hard to really fully identify if that's purely down to

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just the accessibility,

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but I think there's going to be a measurable difference.

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It's, yeah,

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so the data and data is king in this day and age.

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So absolutely help with the awareness,

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but then also the accessibility maturity models as well.

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So if you're implementing a, you know,

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getting a team to be a bit more mature and that question of

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accessibility is in all of the stand-ups or there is

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someone there that's, oh, well, well done,

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Kayman told us about this and that.

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And, you know,

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if that question is being asked a bit more often,

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then with the reporting and it will help for buy-in as well

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in future.

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So it's not just those quick wins,

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but it's in future they'll be able to ask the right

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questions and gain buy-in from the decision makers by

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saying, well, look, we can increase, you know,

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there's a market difference.

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No, it sounds great.

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And I guess, so, yeah,

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diving back into that question on what's unique about

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mobile versus the web or general digital accessibility,

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a lot of organizations I see treat mobile accessibility as

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part of the general digital accessibility efforts.

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Almost like web accessibility is just cross-functional.

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So they're using a phone to access a website or a web app.

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But in your view,

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what really makes that difference for mobile accessibility?

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And would you say,

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or why does it sort of deserve its own focus and expertise?

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I think it goes back to the fact that we're living in a

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mobile-first world at the moment.

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I think this year's statistics,

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I'm all about the data at the moment.

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I think this year there will be more mobile purchases than

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there are online purchases in the UK.

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So, and that's going to continue to grow.

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And I think when you're looking at native apps,

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I just think that it's very different to web.

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I did speak to someone the other day.

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We were talking about this, Joe, as well,

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where someone said, go, you can't just do mobile.

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You've got to do everything, you know,

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everything in the whole business and make it all

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accessible.

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And I just think if you're a business that is, you know,

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your customers are using your app, that's what you want.

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You want a consultancy who can come in and help with your

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app.

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You're not really bothered about what's going on everywhere

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else because your app is your money-making product.

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That's where your customers go, where all your focus is.

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So I might be wrong about this.

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It might be that, you know,

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we're working with businesses doing their mobile apps and

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they say, hey, can you do some web stuff?

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I don't know.

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But I just believe as a consultancy,

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no one is specializing in this area with the consultants

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with all the knowledge and expertise in that field to solve

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problems.

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So that's why I'm going for it.

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I don't know if I've made the right decision.

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And you might know other, you know, reasons around it,

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you know,

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because you're talking to probably lots of clients as well

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in the accessibility space who just say it's all one thing.

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It's all digital, Joe.

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So I don't know.

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I just felt there had to be a singular consultancy that

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just focuses on the mobile.

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I think it'd be helpful.

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It'd be nice as well to be able to partner with some of the

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other consultancies that are focusing or have the bandwidth

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to purely work on the maturity or the general strategy in

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that side of things.

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But this is purely on the technical mobile side,

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which can be more complex at times.

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So I do think, and it would sort of take, it may even,

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I think that consultancies or consultants within other

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consultancies can at times be spread a bit too thin.

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So if you've got another consultancy that's purely on the

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mobile, it's like, okay, well, that's well done's job.

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They're going to come and they'll sort all of that.

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A lot of it will feed in, I believe,

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into the web and general digital accessibility side.

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But yeah,

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for those real specific sort of complex issues that are

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purely, you need someone with Swift or Java, you know,

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Android development chops to be able to go, okay, well,

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I can actually read this.

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It's not just, I'm air quoting, but HTML, CSS, JavaScript.

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It's specific sort of code-based issues that only a mobile

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engineer would be able to really work upon.

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And it's true.

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They wouldn't exist.

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You know, if everyone could do it,

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these people wouldn't exist.

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It's just really that it just comes as an afterthought for

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a lot of, well, I don't know.

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I mean,

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I think there's something like 95% of apps aren't accessible.

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You know,

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so I think there's a lot of work to be done in this space.

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I've probably got that figure wrong,

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but there's a lot of apps that are not accessible at the

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moment.

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And I do think that those people with the skills,

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they have seen those problems.

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They know how to overcome them.

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It's, you know, it's what they do.

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And I think having that knowledge coming into your business

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and sharing that knowledge, you know,

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the consultancy helping the developers or the product

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managers understand why things aren't working and where

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they can improve them,

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they'll do it in a quick and efficient way as well.

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I think so that I agree.

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And I think that,

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so I'm just checking on your statistics here now, Jane.

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So thank you very much.

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I know that 95 to 96% is usually the web aim sort of report

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on the web.

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So 96% of the web or websites aren't accessible.

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It may be that there have been other reports that around

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72% of typical user journeys in mobile apps had a poor or

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failing experience.

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So that's, I mean, and that's poor or failing,

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but there's probably a higher proportion that are,

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you know, that's just based on the test data.

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But it is, I mean, it's rife.

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I think that anything that can be done by specialists is an

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improvement, isn't it?

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So it's amazing.

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And those turnaround times, I think,

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will be improved by all consultancies then.

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I think a smaller,

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newer consultancy will be able to purely focus on that one

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key area of mobile and turn things around for you because

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you may contact a larger consultancy and they'll say, yeah,

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absolutely, we can do this for you in two months' time.

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You know,

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without so fast moving that two months might not be quick

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enough.

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So at least, you know,

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if you've got these associates and specialists available

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that you can turn things around a lot quicker.

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Yeah.

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And they will, I mean,

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I'm sure this is the same with big consultancies,

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but I just think it's a different way of looking at the

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problem.

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I think when a mobile accessibility engineer looks at your

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problems and they say, well, actually,

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these are the quick wins.

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This is going to take us two days.

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These are the other things that are going to be

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problematic.

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And they could take you two weeks, two months, whatever.

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But I just think they're not there to be kind of creating a

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huge,

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great plan that's going to take months and months and months

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and cost a fortune.

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I think a small consultancy is there to help you win rather

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than putting in a standardised solution that every other

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company gets as well.

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So I think that one-on-one relationship is what's also

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needed in solving some of these problems.

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It's almost helping that company,

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the partners or the clients that you're working with stand

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out, be a standalone.

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So it's not, you know,

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one size fits all solution like you've said before.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Amazing.

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So the barriers,

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there are going to be barriers as well in terms of barriers

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to entry into the market and things.

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So when you're talking to sort of product teams,

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designers or leaders about mobile accessibility,

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what's the main sort of pushback or barrier that you hear?

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Is it the skills?

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They don't have the skills currently or tools or the

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mindset or is there something else that pops up quite a

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lot?

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I think there's going to be masses of challenges.

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I think we live in the world,

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we live in a digital accessibility bubble where we kind of

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hear about it all the time.

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And then when you actually start to speak to other

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businesses, it's incredible, you know,

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all the things that they might be saying,

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why they can't do it or, you know,

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the problems they're having.

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But I think the other day I spoke to a product manager and

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this person is really passionate about accessibility and is

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always pushing for it in the business.

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But for the business,

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what is the most important thing is getting the product out

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the door.

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You know,

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it's speed and update the product and get it out the door,

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move on to the next thing.

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And accessibility is in their delivery process.

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It's one of their points.

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But it's very easily taken off when they're just trying to

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get the products out the door.

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And there'll be others in that list as well.

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You know,

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it might just be that the design wasn't quite what they

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wanted it to be.

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And so the commercial side of, you know,

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just running a business and having your products out there

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for people to be using and then testing them and then kind

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of going, it's fine and moving on to the next thing.

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I, you know,

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I think not coming from that world and hearing it from

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other product managers,

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you kind of see that it's very hard to slow down that

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machine and say, hang on a moment,

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if we make this app better,

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it's going to make it easier for more users to use.

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And that's going to actually increase how many people are

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downloading it and using it.

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I see it in a really simplistic way,

526

but when you're actually day to day in the job, just that,

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you know,

528

can we all stop and do the accessibility bit on here?

529

I imagine it's really like hard.

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So I think that's going to be a huge barrier.

531

I'm talking that that's in a big company.

532

I think in other smaller companies,

533

they just haven't got the skills in there.

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You know, that's the other area.

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And I think that's where a consultancy can really help.

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And even if that consultancy just is having those initial

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talks with you to understand it.

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And, you know,

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even when you then come to build your next app or update

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it, that you've got some know-how and you know, you know,

541

where to start with, I think.

542

Money is always going to be an issue.

543

You know, how much is it going to cost?

544

Whether that's you bringing in people yourself who are the

545

experts so that you're hiring people if you're big enough

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or whether you're, you know, looking at the consultancies,

547

how much is a consultancy going to cost?

548

So I think there's lots of barriers.

549

The other one that I think is really interesting in the UK

550

at the moment is with the European Accessibility Act,

551

European companies that have mobile or web products are

552

going to have to make them accessible.

553

And that legislation is going to force people to look at

554

this.

555

But we haven't got that in the UK.

556

So there is no real need for people to be saying,

557

I'll make my app accessible if they don't understand,

558

you know,

559

if they don't understand why having an accessible app will

560

be better for them and for all their users,

561

then they're not going to consider it at all.

562

So I think there's going to be lots of different challenges

563

as we go through this.

564

And I think it's, you know, for a small young consultancy,

565

I think it's early days.

566

But I, you know, because we are very small,

567

we don't need to be having lots and lots and lots of

568

business straight away.

569

But I think it will, every, you know,

570

every customer that we speak to is probably going to have a

571

different perceptive of accessibility or what it could do

572

for their app and why they can't have it.

573

So I think it'll be quite interesting, really.

574

Yeah.

575

And not trying to solve all your answers to that pushback,

576

but on that, you know, oh, they don't,

577

they feel that they don't need to.

578

It's quite, it's a bit of a myth, I suppose,

579

like UK-based companies,

580

because it's only going to benefit them,

581

not only because it will make their apps more usable and

582

they'll get a wider portion of the audience or the market.

583

But if they are a UK-based company with users globally,

584

including in Europe, then they have to comply to the EAA,

585

as well as the Equality Act that's already in place.

586

And if it's a public sector body in the UK,

587

then they have the public sector body accessibility

588

regulation.

589

So there are things in place,

590

but I think there's still the,

591

I don't want to say ignorance because I think it's too,

592

too much of a negative word,

593

but the unknowing of these things.

594

Yeah.

595

Yeah.

596

So still growing that maturity, I suppose, and yeah,

597

understanding.

598

But we, I mean, we do talk about it a lot, don't we, Joe?

599

And I just kind of think, I mean,

600

even when I was getting an agency to help me put together a

601

well-done consultancy and just help a bit with the

602

marketing things, they just didn't get it.

603

One of the consultants, I was just going,

604

I don't really know what you're talking about.

605

Why would you do this?

606

And it was like, oh my gosh,

607

here's me trying to tell you about this business and you

608

don't get it.

609

And now this person is just all over it, you know,

610

because it's kind of like the pennies dropped,

611

the pennies dropped that this isn't about, you know,

612

in the cruelest and simplest way.

613

This isn't about making apps accessible for people with

614

disabilities.

615

This is about making those things easy to use for everyone.

616

But I think people just think of people with disabilities

617

and kind of go, that's not much of the population.

618

And then when they start to realise that it's people like

619

me who can't see very well and have to have great big text

620

on my phone and, you know,

621

just how I navigate things is not very much like other

622

people.

623

And I just think people assume people with disabilities

624

are, I don't know,

625

just the unseen that no one really knows much about.

626

But I just, I, that, that person now gets it.

627

You know, that it's making it consider it.

628

You consider everyone out there and you think,

629

how can we make this easy for people with this,

630

people with that?

631

And sometimes you can't do it for absolutely 100% of the

632

population.

633

But trying to do it for the majority will have some huge

634

benefits.

635

If you, you know, the more you can do.

636

But I think I just think the messaging, I don't know how,

637

how, I've got to get this right, obviously,

638

but the messaging is so important, isn't it?

639

But why do you just think it's about someone in a

640

wheelchair or someone with a blind stick?

641

It's, yeah, the misconception is huge.

642

And it's the misrepresentation in the media.

643

There's all sorts of, you know,

644

there's or no representation in the media.

645

And like you say, the unseen.

646

I think that that's a very poignant point.

647

Unfortunately,

648

that is the way that things have been in the past,

649

that people with disabilities have sort of not had that

650

visibility or companies haven't been thinking about

651

everyone.

652

And there's the whole, I mean, in banking,

653

there's know your customer,

654

but do you really know your customer?

655

So KYC sort of to know your users, you know,

656

do you really understand who's using your app?

657

Or are you just making it based on what you think,

658

as in the founder, the creator, the designer,

659

what you think is good?

660

You know, what's good enough?

661

Yeah.

662

So it's, yeah, it's going,

663

it's pushing beyond that boundary, I think,

664

and understanding that there are people out there with

665

disposable income, you know, as well.

666

And it's not even, I did a post on LinkedIn this week.

667

So this is recorded before Christmas.

668

And it was saying about, you know,

669

accessibility doesn't stop just because people in

670

accessibility are stopping for the Christmas holidays.

671

You know,

672

people who are screen reader users still need to be able to

673

book a flight to go and see family for Christmas.

674

They need to be able to use their phone to communicate with

675

their loved ones.

676

They need to be able to buy presents independently and not

677

have to ask someone else to do it for them.

678

And it's not just screen reader users, by the way,

679

it's obviously all people considered.

680

But people don't have that consideration.

681

But it's really lovely that you said as soon as you spoke,

682

you started to speak about this with, you know,

683

the marketeers and stuff.

684

And it is, it's planting that seed.

685

Anyone I speak to about it,

686

I think it helps when you've got someone that is as

687

passionate as you or I.

688

They'll start to see it in everything, you know,

689

and I'll be watching captions and I'll go, oh,

690

they just haven't got captions on this.

691

And I'm like, why not?

692

I'd like to read along in case I miss something.

693

And I had a really disturbing, not disturbed, well,

694

it was quite disturbing, really,

695

conversation with someone that works in diversity,

696

equity and inclusion in an insurance company.

697

And he was like, well, no, Joe,

698

why would I need anyone that works with accessibility?

699

We're an insurance company.

700

And I thought, okay.

701

And what's the average age of your investors that keep your

702

company running?

703

He's like, oh, well, most of them are in their 70s and 80s.

704

And I was like, okay,

705

and do they do everything pen and paper?

706

Oh, no, we've got a new system.

707

Can they access that system without someone,

708

you sending someone to help them?

709

Oh, no, it's a good point.

710

And it's just because they hadn't thought about any of

711

that.

712

And, you know,

713

I'm not saying that people over a certain age are tech

714

illiterate,

715

but it's the usability of something and being able to have

716

features that can make things easier for you to use.

717

So yeah, I think it is just spreading that seed,

718

having those conversations.

719

But then in this sense, obviously with Well Done,

720

it is very much,

721

very specific and very complex and technical in terms of

722

the differences of mobile, I suppose.

723

Yeah.

724

And well, just going back on that as well, people,

725

you said you didn't want to use the word ignorant,

726

but it's just like they,

727

it just doesn't come into their day.

728

And that's why it's so hard that, you know, we're going,

729

what do you mean you never heard about it?

730

What, you know, what have you never thought about this?

731

And if they haven't, you know, every, not everyone,

732

but a lot of the people that we speak to, you,

733

you often ask them, you know,

734

how and why did you get into accessibility?

735

And I don't know, 50%, 60% of the time,

736

they've wanted to help someone, they've met someone,

737

they've realised, you know, this wasn't very easy for them.

738

And so they've looked into it and they've researched it.

739

And then down the line, they've got into accessibility,

740

you know,

741

because there's not enough people helping and doing stuff

742

in this space.

743

But if you have never come across anyone,

744

then you don't think about it.

745

So it is a hard uphill struggle to ask people to think

746

about it when it doesn't even cross their mind because,

747

you know, it will get better.

748

It will get better.

749

Especially because, you know,

750

aging people like me who just, you know,

751

I can use everything.

752

I'm out there using it, but it's only going to get worse.

753

And I need things to make it easier for reading and stuff

754

like that.

755

So it's, and I have the money to spend as well.

756

Yeah.

757

So there you go.

758

And you say aging people like you, but there you go.

759

Now we're all in the same boat because everyone is aging.

760

Yeah.

761

We're all going to be there one day.

762

And that's the getting people to that realization that

763

you're not just making things better for other people or

764

your users.

765

It's also for yourself.

766

You know, you're going to make things.

767

I think there's the one thing that I think resonates with

768

absolutely everyone you speak to, even if there's pushback,

769

is how frustrated have you been when you've used X website?

770

Oh, yeah.

771

And they'll go, oh, God,

772

I couldn't even get to the checkout.

773

So you've had that experience.

774

Now imagine that for 96% of apps.

775

Yeah, yeah.

776

And that's what one, not one person, but 5%, you know,

777

15% globally that people are experiencing every day.

778

We can tell that you can feel the passion in this.

779

Let's just keep.

780

Yeah, I'm enjoying it.

781

But let's get back to you.

782

So, well, actually,

783

the next part is actually about the future anyway.

784

So looking ahead and sort of your vision for where mobile

785

accessibility is heading.

786

And I guess we've kind of covered that slightly with trying

787

to raise that awareness.

788

But what would you really love to see change in the next

789

few years?

790

So more immediate future in how teams are prioritizing and

791

building accessible mobile experiences?

792

So I really think that all accessibility,

793

digital accessibility,

794

all accessibility is the right thing to do.

795

But I think what I would like to see in the future is that

796

those companies who make their apps accessible,

797

they are rewarded by beating their competitors.

798

They have satisfied and grown customer bases and that they,

799

through having the commercial advantage,

800

they can then become the advocates and the leaders in that

801

space.

802

So to me,

803

I want it to be much more commercial about what's happening

804

in this space.

805

And then when you look at, you know,

806

in the past when we used to work with advertising agencies

807

and those agencies would have the, you know,

808

the advertising awards,

809

the best adverts and things like that.

810

I'd love to see the mobile app accessibility awards

811

happening.

812

I'm sorry if I'm going off on one on this.

813

It's not probably quite what you're, you know, the norm,

814

but I'd love to see, you know,

815

those companies who take this seriously being rewarded and

816

then also kind of awards around it.

817

And what I love about the awards,

818

I love the idea that you can, you,

819

you would then choose your app by the, you know,

820

the accessibility award winners.

821

And I think Apple has started doing something along these

822

lines with their accessibility nutrition labels,

823

whereby the developers can say, you know,

824

what is accessible, what features they've added.

825

And so you can look at that and then decide if you're going

826

to download the app or not.

827

That isn't compulsory.

828

It might be in the future.

829

I don't know.

830

But it's kind of on the way to making it so that, you know,

831

rather than going trying an app and thinking, oh,

832

this is no good, you can just say, actually,

833

I have my whole library here of the award winners for

834

accessibility.

835

These have all the features that I need that make it easy.

836

And this is the app that I choose to do my banking with or

837

my online shopping with or whatever.

838

So that for me is the future around mobile.

839

I just want it to be easier for people to choose which apps

840

they're going to use so that their life is easier.

841

Yeah,

842

I think that's an amazing idea as well to just have a certain

843

library as well within the app store or within the Play

844

Store for Android devices where, yeah, I mean,

845

even if you could filter by certain things,

846

like certain restrictions that you have or certain

847

impairments, you go, okay, well,

848

these are definitely going to work for me.

849

And then it's good to go almost.

850

You know,

851

obviously you still want to experience other things that

852

everyone is able to.

853

But yeah, I think to have that ease of access is, yeah,

854

that would be amazing.

855

And the reward.

856

So you said,

857

I know that you've said about the commercial side of

858

things.

859

And at times we've kind of,

860

I've probably misunderstood in a way how you've sort of put

861

that as a, not a priority,

862

but it has to be commercial because money talks.

863

We're in a capitalist society.

864

We need money to fund these things and to find the people

865

and pay the people to do the things.

866

So as much as obviously we know it's the right thing to do

867

and there is a lot of empathy.

868

And that's why as soon as you talk to someone with the

869

right mindset, they will take it on board and go, oh, yeah,

870

why haven't we been doing this before?

871

But yes, absolutely.

872

In business,

873

it has to obviously have a commercial positive.

874

And there are,

875

but it's making people aware of what those are.

876

Yeah,

877

and it takes us all the way back to the data bit again,

878

because I just think,

879

I'm trying to think of some good mobile apps,

880

but it's that thing of just kind of like, oh my goodness,

881

we've grown the customer base by 20% in four months or

882

something like that.

883

And just being able to go back to the business and saying,

884

this is what's happened when we've added these features.

885

Can we try and add these features now?

886

Because we think it's going to make the revenue this.

887

I think that's an easier case to go to the business with

888

than, you know, it's the right thing to do.

889

Or I just think we as a group of people need to get more

890

commercial about this in order for the businesses to go,

891

great, let's do it.

892

You know, let's spend money on it.

893

Let's invest in it.

894

Because actually what it's doing is making the app or the

895

website or whatever it is better for everyone.

896

And that's got to be a good thing.

897

So yeah, it's the commercial side I want to push on.

898

Yeah, and I agree in that sense.

899

I think it's often overlooked,

900

but if it makes that buy-in a bit easier to gain and

901

business is ruthless, you know, because as much as, okay,

902

well, it's good for all these people,

903

but what's in it for me?

904

It's probably a response you might get in terms of the

905

business owner or the person that's in charge of the purse

906

strings, you know, like what's the return on investment?

907

And if you can't really quantify that,

908

it just makes that job of selling it into the business that

909

bit harder, doesn't it?

910

Yeah, yeah.

911

And I think you've seen this year, haven't you?

912

Like digital teams,

913

accessibility teams being downsized and things like that.

914

You know, I keep wondering, God,

915

if they had more of a business case,

916

would that be the case?

917

Or is it just that businesses are just losing people across

918

all the teams?

919

You know?

920

I think that there's different scenarios.

921

I've seen some restructures,

922

new design leaders coming in and sort of saying, no,

923

this is how I want to shape my team and it's worked before.

924

It's a consideration that they're saying rather than a

925

specialist, you know,

926

it's like they want a broad person that's going to do all

927

of the UX or the UI design,

928

but they also have accessibility.

929

But you've seen some of the job specs that we get sent that

930

we want everything and we want them to also be from Mars

931

and Venus at the same time.

932

So in my opinion, it's not the right way to go, obviously.

933

And downsizing teams and accessibility doing such important

934

work isn't the right thing to do.

935

But then we may see the negative impact that has and then

936

the realization that actually it's the business case.

937

They do need people that are focusing on that and they'll

938

bring them back twofold.

939

Brilliant.

940

So final thoughts.

941

So before we wrap up,

942

have you got a message for the listeners to take away about

943

mobile accessibility?

944

If that's strategic advice or mindset shift or even a quote

945

or anything that you've heard that you'd like to share,

946

then yeah, share away.

947

Well,

948

I have loved listening to your podcasts throughout the year

949

and I learn so much about them.

950

And then I go and follow, you know,

951

whoever it is who's been speaking things.

952

I can't remember any of the things they've said off the top

953

of that.

954

But there's one of the things before I started well done

955

was make sure that you include people with the disabilities

956

that you're testing for.

957

If you're doing looking at an app and seeing if it's

958

accessible,

959

make sure that you're using people who actually have those

960

disabilities testing it.

961

So I'm kind of like, got that,

962

that's something I'm going to be doing.

963

And so I think, so a consultancy that's using,

964

it could be that I'm using another consultancy to help us

965

with that, but it's kind of really,

966

really important that that's in place.

967

In terms of strategic advice to anyone who is building

968

mobile apps and in a business,

969

I would just say look for the quick wins and try and

970

measure it so you can be building a business case.

971

I just think you can keep going back to the business if

972

there's some improvement all the time.

973

So look at the very quick wins if you can and measure it

974

and see what happens when you do that.

975

Because I just do believe passionately that making it just

976

a bit easier for everyone to use is going to be, you know,

977

you're going to see the rewards of that.

978

Yeah, beneficial all around.

979

Yeah,

980

I think it's a lot of the advice that we get on the podcast

981

is just do it.

982

Just start and you'll start to see.

983

I agree with that.

984

But I think the second part of that advice,

985

which is what you've just given,

986

is try and measure it and then you build your own case

987

because there's people that want to get into accessibility,

988

but they've not been given the time in their role.

989

It's all a side of desk thing.

990

They're not compensated for it as well, as much as,

991

you know, they still do it out of passion,

992

but then that can lead to burnout.

993

So I think what you're saying is great advice,

994

because if you can start to make some sort of measurement

995

or report to then build on that business case,

996

then you might well be doing it full-time in the near

997

future.

998

Yeah.

999

And I think I'm told, Joe,

00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:56,560

that it's actually quite hard to measure it because of all

00:44:56,560 --> 00:44:57,600

the other factors.

00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:00,880

But I just think, like you've just said, just try it.

00:45:01,120 --> 00:45:02,480

Just go, here we are now.

00:45:02,720 --> 00:45:04,000

We've done that and there we are.

00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:06,960

There could be multiple factors that have affected the,

00:45:07,120 --> 00:45:08,720

you know, the data.

00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:12,560

But just as a one starting point,

00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:14,800

it will get better as well over time.

00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:16,320

But it's just, you know,

00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:18,640

it's not an easy thing to measure and go,

00:45:18,720 --> 00:45:21,360

that is because we've implemented accessibility.

00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:22,560

It's not that easy.

00:45:22,720 --> 00:45:24,960

But I think you have to start somewhere with that as well.

00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:26,400

Yeah, absolutely.

00:45:26,720 --> 00:45:27,440

Well, amazing.

00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:29,120

Thank you so much again for joining me.

00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:30,080

Second time round,

00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:32,800

but I mean it's two and a half years between the episodes,

00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:33,920

which is incredible.

00:45:34,240 --> 00:45:34,640

Yeah, yeah.

00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:37,840

But I mean, we speak to each other every day,

00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:39,760

but lovely speaking to you again.

00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:42,800

And I'm sure the listeners have loved it as well.

00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:44,240

So best of luck with well done.

00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:47,040

I'll do what I can to help support it, obviously, as well.

00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:49,920

And yeah, exciting times ahead.

00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:50,800

Lovely chatting.

00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:53,440

It's been lovely spending all this time chatting to you and

00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:55,920

not feeling that we should be working.

00:45:57,120 --> 00:45:57,680

Amazing.

00:45:58,400 --> 00:45:58,720

All right.

00:45:58,880 --> 00:45:59,120

Thank you.

00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:00,240

Thanks again