Show Notes for The Aspiring Psychologist Podcast Episode: 39: The Clinical Associate Psychologist programme for Aspiring Psychologists.

Thank you for listening to the Aspiring Psychologist Podcast.

Aspiring psychologists often feel disheartened when applying to roles on their journey and not getting the results they desire. To reduce the impact that this has on aspiring psychologists and the psychology field, psychologists created a new role. For today’s episode, I invited Elise Dyer to discuss the Clinical Associate Psychologist programme. By the end of the episode, you will know what it is, whether it might be for you and how you can apply! I hope this helps and thank you for being a part of my world!

The Highlights:

• 00:29: Feeling disheartened with the application process.
• 01:47: Introducing Elise Dyer.
• 03:19: What is the CAP programme?
• 09:49: The CAP programme and your career goals.
• 11:01: Funding for the CAP programme.
• 11:32: A brief history.
• 13:34: The Higher Education England funding rule.
• 17:49: Assessments on the CAP programme.
• 20:39: Supervision and support.
• 22:17: Teaching on the programme.
• 22:45: Placements.
• 24:04: How to apply and career progression!
• 27:59: Remote teaching as a silver lining!
• 29:25: Elise’s experience of training.
• 31:00: Cohort bonding on a remote course.
• 32:42: Avoiding burnout!
• 37:36: Working in Academia and connect with me for free!

Connect with Elise Dyer on LinkedIn: https://uk.linkedin.com/in/elise-dyer-355001147

Follow University of Plymouth on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/plymuni/

Links:

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Hi, welcome along to The Aspiring Psychologist podcast. Thank you for listening. I know from speaking with many of you that it can feel incredibly disheartening when we are coming up in the field of psychology and perhaps people are having multiple application cycles to becoming a Clinical Psychologist, or maybe even other types of psychologists too. And you feel like you're getting interviews, but not getting the result, not getting the job that you that you desire. And sometimes the feedback can be varied. It can be about performance in interview. It can be about, you know, academic skills and resources needing strengthening. And sometimes people just feel that they're not even getting shortlisted for interview, and it can be really disheartening. It can make people feel, maybe this isn't for me. Maybe I should give up. Maybe I should do something different. And I guess when I was an Assistant Psychologist, it could feel like I was a little bit piecemeal, really trying to piece things together and convince people that I was gonna be a great trainee Clinical Psychologist.

And certainly, I was one you know, I did reasonably at that. And I loved my assistant roles, but you might have heard there's a new kid on the block. The CAP, the Clinical Associate in Psychology. And you might be like, I don't really know what that is. I don't know how that would work. I've kind of heard it, but I never quite remember what the initials are CAP. So just imagine it's a CAP you're wearing. And so, I thought it'd be really lovely to get someone along to talk to us who is themselves a CAP, but also works at university helping to train future CAPs too. I have invited Elise along who is herself a qualified CAP, but also works in academia helping to train future CAPs at Plymouth university. So, with no further ado let's get on, let's meet Elise and see what she and I have got to say. I will look forward to catching you on the other side. Welcome along to our guest today. Elise Dyer who is a clinical tutor and a lecturer on the MSC CAP programme at Plymouth uni. Hi, welcome along.

Hi. Hi, lovely to be here and lovely to meet you.

You too. Thank you so much for joining us. So, for those who don't know what the CAP initials are, could you tell us a little bit about that please?

Yeah, of course. It's a new programme. It's Clinical Associate Psychologist, MSC programme, most universities in the UK now offering this programme. It's a collaborative MSC apprenticeship programme. NHS funds this programme. So, NHS services work with universities, their local universities to provide this apprenticeship programmme. It's 18 months and apprentices apprentice CAPs train with us at Plymouth university and they spend two, three days in their workplace learning on the job if you like. So, they get a chance to practice what they learn in their lectures.

That sounds brilliant. So really great to know that such a programme exists, that you can be funded to do an MSC and also learn really valuable skills and get that clinical experience at the same time.

Absolutely, absolutely. I think it's a brilliant opportunity really for people, psychology graduates. So only psychology graduates I'm afraid can apply to these programmes, because you are trained in clinical skills and a psychology degree is viewed as a foundation to build on those skills. And ideally apprentices should have couple of years of experience in the field as well. It doesn't have to be paid experience, but it's ideal for them to have some clinical experience as well. The programme was developed to offer opportunity to especially people who cannot get on the Clinical Psychology programme doctorate, because as you know, it's incredibly competitive and there are a lot of psychology graduates and experienced clinicians working in AP posts or other posts trying years and years and years to get onto the doctorate, but unfortunately it's not happening. So, we get those people applying to Clinical Associate Psychology programmes to become a CAP because CAP skills, essential skills, are quite in line with Clinical Psychologists skills. As in the core competencies are providing assessment, formulation, intervention, and consultation.

So, competency skills to be able to work with people indirectly providing indirect clinical skills, if you like. So, in that sense, it's quite similar to Clinical Psychologists competencies, but the main difference is CAPs are semi-autonomous practitioners. So, CAPs must be supervised by a qualified Clinical Psychologist, or an applied psychologist, that has changed recently. It initially was a Clinical Psychologist, but it has changed now it's an applied psychologist, so it could be counselling psychologists or any other applied psychologists in the service can supervise the CAP. So semi-autonomous practitioners. So that's the main difference.

Thank you. So, it's like, it sounds like it's kind of a system work, but with much more structure and you know, more, I don't know, more, it's more applied, it's more of an applied programme.

Absolutely more applied, more hands on and a bit more autonomy compared to the Assistant Psychologist, I suppose. Because CAPs again, under clinical supervision can provide variety of tasks in a service; assessment, formulation, intervention, running group groups. Yeah. You know, doing integrative therapies because they're trained in variety of therapeutic models. So, they could really provide those interventions to their clients in their specific services. So, and because they are trained in a specific service, there is depth of knowledge there. I guess compared to Assistant Psychologists, because the Assistant Psychologists are usually just psychology graduates, whereas CAPs as well as doing psychology undergrad degree, they train in this specific programme, 18 months of programme and they go through a quite a robust learning process. Really, they have. For instance, they have 119 knowledge, skilled behaviours, they train, they learn and they demonstrate in order to graduate as they CAP. So, by the time they complete the programme, they have various skills and competencies that I guess, takes them a step ahead. If you like compared to other professions at AP level.

It sounds brilliant. And actually it sounds like something I would've really, really liked when I was an aspiring Clinical Psychologist myself, because I did feel little bit de-skilled, you know, I felt like I didn't really have a thing, you know. And it is hard to get therapy experience when working as an assistant, I found certainly at the time I think things have changed a great deal since I was coming up in the field of psychology, but I really like the sound of this programme and how it trains people. And it gives people experience of what it will be like ultimately if they do go on to do doctorate, but of course you might choose not to, you might choose to stay as a CAP because you really enjoy that.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Again, some people, like you say they come onto the programme with a kind of long-term goal of, okay, I'll complete this programme and I'll work in the field for a couple of years and I'll still go and apply to doctorate, which is fine. It's a choice, but some people do change their mind and stay working as a CAP. CAP programme will also another difference compared to other kind of foundational level professions. If you like CAPs are trained as band five clinicians and upon qualification. They work as a band six clinician in services, however things are changing and expanding roles are expanding in services. And there are opportunities for career development and applying to band seven roles as well. For instance, in Cornwell, we have a colleague who after CAP qualifications secured the band seven position within the NHS, and now they're performing that role. So, there is that option and opportunity as well.

That's really interesting and really good to know, and it really does help people to make, you know, an earn a livable wage whilst they're training as well. So, you'd get when you're training, you get the band five, but you also get your tuition fees paid as well. Is that right? Elise?

Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes. It's all paid. Yes.

Amazing. That sounds incredible. How did it come about as a thing, as a programme, do you know much about the history of it?

Yes. Basically, Professor Ken Laidlaw from Exeter university used to be a Clinical Psychologist lead. But if I remember right, he might be retired now or just about to. So, he was receiving feedback and he was observing that a lot of aspiring Clinical Psychologists are suffering. If you like, not being able to get in onto the programme, feeling really frustrated, feeling really disappointed, and we are losing. And he was thinking, well, we're losing these psychology graduates, and potentially good clinicians. So he and Mike Hutchinson from Exeter university again, I think they started talking about how about looking into this, you know, a training programme where we train people to work as an Associate Psychologist and train them within a shorter programme instead of three years doctorate programme, but still give them depth of knowledge to work as a good clinician in the field. So that's how the programme started developing really. People noticing people in the field Clinical Psychology, our Clinical Psychologists noticing there's a gap in psychology field. So, we could really create clinicians who can work who we can place them between Assistant Psychologists and Clinical Psychologists. Because before CAPs, there was nothing in between if you like. So that's how it was created, really noticing that gap and witnessing psychological graduates not getting onto the programme and feeling utterly disappointed. So, that's how it came about.

This sounds incredible. They did a really good job there. I think I know last year it came as a bit of a shock in September, on the 1st of September in fact. When the clearinghouse announced that there'll be HEE limits for funding. Is this programme part of that as well? The Higher Education England funding rule.

At the moment? It is, yes. So yeah, if people are training as a CAP yes. So, they need to, after qualification, they need to be staying and working. Is it two years or three years?

I think it's two. So initially on the 1st of September, they said it was like a blanket from then didn't they, but there'd been a lot of lobbying. And yeah, it's been, I think it's been overruled and delayed until next September to allow people a chance to adjust, you know, was that as much as of surprise to the universes as it was to us in the field as well, you know, when they just announced that blanket ban?

Yes. Although it was a surprise bit of a shock, but I personally think it's a good thing. I'm not gonna deny. I think I agree with the idea, because when you go onto a programme and when you train, you really need that consolidation time to be able to really apply your skills and learning and to feel really comfortable and confident in what you learned and how you apply that in the field in psychology. So, I think two years is a good time to be able to do that. And also, I must admit the programme, it's a brilliant programme, but it's an intense programme. It's not a breeze at all. And you know, there's a lot of assignments to get through and a lot of skills to learn and to apply in your service. So, it takes its toll, if you like, and I think jumping from one programme tiring hard work to another three years of another intense programme, although I haven't done the Clinical Psychology Doctorate, I have friends who have done and who tell me similarly, it's hard work. It's, you know, it's not a walk in the park. So, jumping from CAP course to the doctorate would've been really hard. So, I think it's a good thing that people will be forced if you like to take that two years breathing space and just work, forget about training for a while and just apply what you learned, consolidate that learning and yeah, perform as a clinician, if you like.

Yeah. I don't disagree that it's not a good idea. And it certainly will make people less impulsive, you know, thinking about actually, whether this is gonna be right for them and whether that is something that they want to commit to. But I think the issue was it took away people's informed choice. Didn't it? Initially when they said, yes, you can't do it for two years. And it's like, well, that's not fair, you know?

Yeah, you are right. And it, it, and it wasn't sort of, it was just like a last-minute thing it just came about, but luckily they pulled back and they allowed people to apply and get onto the courses. And now hopefully people have enough knowledge, and they can make informed decisions from now on.

Yeah. And it is actually an aspiring psychologist himself who really spearheaded that campaign to get that overturned, Han, he did such an amazing job. He's now secured a place on training this year as well, which is incredible, but it's helped so many people you know, had that not happened. It's unlikely. They would've changed their decision at that stage. So, you know, there's a little message there that if we don't agree with things, we can raise our heads and raise our hands and you know, fight for fight for what we believe in. But it's interesting to know there's assignments in there as well. Are there exams too? Elise?

Yeah, no exams, but we have we have variety of assessments and essays case reports. They also have, as I said, 119 knowledge skilled behaviours that they have to demonstrate to their clinical supervisor in order to be signed off. And at the end of the programme, we have end point assessment. So, what happens is throughout a year, they learn all these skills, knowledge, behaviours, and end point assessment is set as a day or in two days where they demonstrate their skills and competencies that they gain from the programme in role plays. So, we have four stations; assessment station, risk station, formulation station and intervention station. So, they go through those stations and they demonstrate, they role play with an actor and they demonstrate those clinical skills live and they are assessed by an independent assessor. And they get their marks as a pass or fail. So, I guess the difference of CAP apprenticeship programme is not only they write the same assignments and case reports, but at the end they have that end point assessment process. It's, I mean, it can be seen as a showcase. You are actually celebrating what you are, what you gained, and you are showing off your skills, if you like. But needless to say, it does create some anxiety in apprentices as well because it's live and you role play, and no one likes role plays.

I actually quite like a role play Elise.

.

I was an anomaly in my cohort for enjoying that. But yeah, I can imagine when it comes to, you know, to that the four station day the anxieties are certainly running high, but it sounds incredible. And you know, doing with actors as well, I know some clinical doctorate courses, employee, actors to come in and do things on selection days. And one time they got told to pair it back because they were like really wild and too, like almost like traumatising for people. So, they got told maybe next time don't be, we're not trying to scare our applicants.

So the 18, is it an 18 month placement that runs for the duration of the course?

Yes. Yeah. Maternity is 18 months. Yes.

So ideally, you know, maternity leave aside for, for supervisors, it would be you'd get the same supervisor running from start to finish. Is that, is that ideal? Is that the gold standard?

It's absolutely ideal and gold standard, but as you know, in services, unfortunately, that doesn't always happen. And sometimes it's unlucky a clinical supervisor may decide to stop working or get another job. And it does happen occasionally. It's not, you know it's not too often, but occasionally it does happen that you can get a new clinical supervisor during your 18 months programme. But ideally of course they would have one supervisor taking them through the programme.

That would be ideal, but I do know how, how busy lives and conflicting demands work as well. Is there like a kind of mid-placement visit, or are there multiple mid-placement visits?

We don't have visits from university as such. I think that's the difference between Clinical Psychology doctorate programme and CAP programme. So as clinical tutors, we don't visit at all, but their clinical supervisors work with them closely. And of course, they're embedded in their service. So, their manager, their colleagues, their MDT is, you know, keeping a close eye on apprentices and working with them in order to help them and support them to gain those skills.

Great. And are they teaching blocks at uni or is it done kind of just the days of the week?

Oh, there is definitely teaching blocks when they start, they have a teaching block with university and then they go to their placement and when they start their placement, there is one or two days of uni days, but yeah, it's mainly done in teaching blocks and then service.

Great. How do you feel like I'm firing load of questions at you, but I find this so interesting and I know our audience will as well. Are all of the placements in adult mental health services or are they across the lifespan? Could you tell us a bit about the nature of the placement basis please?

Yeah, sure. It's all depends on which services need CAPs and which service come to us to university saying, “can you please train some people for us, some CAPs for us”, but it's across the lifespan. It could be. So, for instance, currently we are training adult mental health services. People CAPs will work in adult services, but we also train CAMHS clinicians. So, I was trained within CAMHS as a CAMHS CAP. So, we now train CAMHS CAPs as well, but we also have plans for training CAPs in learning difficulties you know, any other secondary mental health. So it could be across the lifespan, elderly working with you know, elderly, older adults.

Brilliant. So, you'd know at the point that you were replying to the university, what the programme was and so which area you might end up working in?

Absolutely. Absolutely. In that sense, again, it's different from Clinical Psychology programme, you apply to NHS service. So best place to keep an eye on is NHS jobs, because these jobs are advertised by the NHS. So, when you look at a job, you will see which service, where is that service and what they offer basically. So, you could be looking at, okay, well, CAMHS in Cornwall is recruiting CAPs you know, apprentice CAPs to work within CAMHS as CAPs basically, or you could be looking into, at an advert to work in adult services or learning difficulty services. So, if you like the sound of working and training in that particular service and area, then please do apply. But if you feel like, mm, I'm not sure, maybe I wanna work in CAMHS services, not learning difficulties, then you've gotta wait until a CAMHS CAPs opportunity becomes available again. That's the difference between the Clinical Psychology doctorate and CAPs, Clinical Psychology has breadth of knowledge. You have different services, you are placed for about four to six months moving from one service to another, and it could be children's services, learning difficulties, adults, et cetera. Whereas CAPs training is one particular service. So, depth of knowledge, if you're going into a learning difficulties service, you'll train in that for 18 months and you'll upon qualification, you'll work in that particular area, if you like. So, you have a depth of knowledge, not breadth.

Okay. So, you wouldn't necessarily be able to apply for a qualified CAP role in a child service if, for example, you're trained in older adults, because it's not necessarily transferable?

Not necessarily, but again, there are talks about how the core skills and competencies are transferable mm-hmm those, you know, assessment formulation skills and to a certain extent intervention skills. So, it depends on service, really there's no one would stop you from applying to a different service. Even though, say you are qualified as a CAP within clinical psychology, but you could go and apply to any other service saying, well, I've got the foundation skills, I've got those transferable skills, and I'm happy to receive top up training from you. And maybe there could be an in-house training to add those extra specific skills to be able to work in that service. So, it could happen. So, there's no hard rules about if your qualified in this then you can't apply to any other service.

Okay. That's really good to know. And when people are looking on NHS jobs, what terms should be these, should they be searching for, if they're looking for these training roles?

They could use search terms, Apprenticeship Clinical Associate Psychology CAP. So, I think those should bring up those roles.

Great. Thank you. And I guess while whilst people are trying to learn a bit more about it, they could look at doing a national search couldn't they, so that they're looking at who's recruiting what they're saying, what the person spec and the job description is, if they do wanna have an overview of what's around at the moment.

Absolutely. Absolutely. And also, I think this is an important thing as well for people. Our programme is entirely remote, remote teaching, online teaching, and I believe most universities provide CAP programme as a remote teaching. So, they will be going into their NHS placement service. So, they've gotta live nearby their service, but they don't have to live near university. So, we have, we are in Plymouth university in Plymouth, but we have Southern Health from Southampton area, or we have Oxford CAMHS training with us. We have Cornwell CAMHS training with us. So, I think online, remote teaching is really effective and helping people greatly really. I think this is one of C's silver lining, isn't it? That universities now can provide those online, fully online programmes.

Absolutely. And it's all about improving accessibility for people and being able to fit it around their lives. You know, I'm a mother myself, and I know you are too, and it just helps you to be a bit more flexible.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes.

I understand you were part of the second cohort where you trained. Could you tell us a little bit about whether you enjoyed training, how you found it and all of that?

Absolutely. Yeah. I was the second cohort in Cornwall and in fact, I was working as a primary mental health worker within CAMHS part-time. And when this opportunity became available, I was highly interested and I applied and I secured the position and I thoroughly enjoyed training. It wasn't an apprenticeship when I did it, it was just a degree. So, I trained within CAMHS, and I knew the service. I knew the people I worked with. So, I was already embedded in the team, which was quite helpful actually. And the training was really good. Lecturers came from Exeter university; it was Exeter university to Cornwell to train us. It was, back then, it was face to face and yeah, in my cohort, there were 26 of us and we were all highly motivated, bonded well. It was a really good experience, really hard work. As I said earlier, it wasn't a breeze. So, you know, you've gotta be well organised and highly motivated. And you've gotta be on top of it, I guess, to be able to keep up with it. But, but all good experience, you know, I would do it again and again. So, it's a lovely experience.

I'm quite tempted actually Elise . I've been qualified as a psychologist since 2011. Do you get much of a chance to do cohort bonding these days when it is online only cause you might be the only associate training CAP in your service. Are you getting much time to do any cohort bonding?

Yeah. Good question. We have hybrid days, basically we ask our apprentices to go into their service from their locality in fives or sixes. So, they have hybrid learning days where they learn together and we provide them tasks on those days where they actually do it together. So, then there's bit of bonding as well. And most of our cohorts, what they do, they all create their own cohort WhatsApp, and then they always text each other and, you know, talk and liaise and help each other and support each other. So, there is, although, you know, in theory it, it may sound like, oh, it's all remote and they may not bond, but they actually find ways to bonds.

Good. I'm so pleased to hear it because actually when I was training as a Clinical Psychologist, one of my, and even when I was an Assistant Psychologist, my favourite bits of those roles was the relationships I made with people doing the same thing at the same time. So, it's really important. And when we are trying to avoid burnout on the way up it's really important to have peer support. Yeah. I love to be a fly on the wall in those WhatsApp groups.

Same here.

Could you give us some of your top tips for avoiding burnout on the way and on the way up and through psychology careers, if that's okay.

Absolutely. I guess we've gotta practise what we preach as psychologists, really having a good work life balance and making sure your boundaries. I love this word boundaries. So, you know, if your working hours are nine to five, please do stop at five, turn off your work laptop, do not check your work emails. And really look after yourself, have a bit of me time at weekends, spend quality time with your family, friends, go and do your hobbies. It could be as simple as just go for a walk and have fresh air or go and have, I don't know, coffee and cake, just have those little treats, simple pleasures in life to keep you going, if you like. I'm lucky I live in Cornel. So, I swim regularly, especially these days. It's just a god send really after work. I just go and jump in the sea . So, really claiming those times back like me-times and making sure that you look after yourself and, and yeah, being organised does help with that kind of keeping a notebook. If you like giving yourself, say for instance, okay I can do a bit of reading between this time and that time, but then from 7:00 PM, till 8:00 PM, I have my dinner with my partner or after that I'm watching bit off Netflix. You know, I dunno, I'm going to bed at such time and definitely not thinking about work or anything really being strict in a way that you switch off at weekends and be working hours. I think it's hugely important.

Really, really important. Yeah. Compartmentalising it and whoever we think we're serving when we're working longer hours, we're often not, you know boundaries are really, really important. I love the sound of you being able to dive into the sea. I live in the middle of England so I’m jealous of that. That sounds incredible.

No, really good. I'm lucky. We are lucky in Cornwell. It's lovely. All move down!

I might do. I might do. I might look into it. It's been such a pleasure talking to you and learning more about this incredible training scheme. Thank you so much for your time. I know people will be super, super interested to learn more about it. Cause it feels like this sort of mysterious newcomer.

Yes, yes. Yeah, no, it's been lovely talking to you too. And I hope it does help some people to make decisions and choices, and I highly recommend psychology graduates or people who need an alternative career to Clinical Psychology if you like. So, yeah. And do you contact me if you have any further questions or if anyone wants to know anything further, I'm happy to respond and reply as much as possible.

Brilliant. Make sure I pop your details in the show notes. Do you want people to start following Plymouth university on socials? Is that a good thing to do?

Oh, it's an excellent thing to do. It's one of the best universities. I'm not saying this because I work for them but no, it, it really is a brilliant programme and lovely university really. And we are a really good team. All, we are happy to help.

Brilliant. I'll make sure we get the links for following Plymouth Uni in the show notes as well. And tag you when this episode is coming out, I've adored today. I could talk to you more and more, especially about Cornwall. That sounds incredible. Thank you so much for your time today.

Oh, you are most welcome. Really enjoyed it too. Yeah. Thank you. Brilliant.

Thank you. Oh, thank you for listening. What an absolute pleasure speaking to Elise was, and how good does Cornwall and the sea sound? We recorded this on a super-hot day in August. We were both melting, which is why we decided, I decided, to go off camera today and just do audio. I went by the time we started filming I'd not long got back from a run and got out the shower and I was like, I was just so hot. I'm so hot. Let's just keep it on audio. Hope that hasn’t altered your enjoyment if you are watching on YouTube. So, what I should say is just at the end, Elise said, oh no, I forgot to mention something. So, I said, I'd do it in this section. So, once you are a qualified to CAP, you don't have to work for the NHS.

If you don't want to, you can also work in academia. So, you can also work in universities, which is what she had done as well. So, I hope that's really useful cause it obviously gives you more, more scope for future qualified work as well. But how incredible does it sound? I would love your thoughts around this episode, if you wanted to come and join the group which is totally free on Facebook and do search for The Aspiring Psychologist Community with Dr. Marianne Trent and in brackets, it will say free group. That's how, you know, you are in, at the right place, come and discuss what you thought to this. To this episode, I'd love to know what you are thinking to it. Has it inspired you, has it given you some more information? Also, if you would like to join the waiting list for the next time The Aspiring Psychologist Membership opens do check out the details in the show notes.

But I have loved today. I hope you have found it really useful as well. If you've got any ideas for future podcast episodes do drop me a line otherwise do please check out the dates for the compassionate Q and As to support the Dclinpsych application season, they are totally free to attend and the details for how you can how you can attend those will be in the show notes. But if you wanted to join the free Facebook group, it will definitely be in there. So come along and join so that we are nice and ready for when they start. I will level with you. I can't quite remember when this episode will be going live cuz we've got some scheduled and in the can already, but the first of the live Q and A sessions is actually on the 1st of September this year when they open, which is Thursday.

I'm not quite sure when this episode goes out. So it might be that you can watch that on replay if it is indeed after the 1st of September and I'm desperately looking around for my diary, but it's not in the room. So, I can't end that mystery. But yeah, it's been a pleasure speaking with you today. If you find the podcast useful, please do like subscribe, comment, tell your friends and rate and review on Apple Podcasts, would be absolutely wonderfully gratefully received, come and connect with me on socials. Most places I am Dr. Marianne, Trent. I absolutely adore helping you to celebrate your successes. So do please come and connect. Yeah, and I will catch up with you very soon. Don't forget the next episode of this Aspiring Psychologist Podcast it's available for you to listen to from 6:00 AM on Mondays. But don't worry. It will be here when you are ready. You don't need to set your alarm for 6:00 AM. Hope you have a wonderful day, whatever you are up to and thank you again for being part of my wealth to take care

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