In this episode, I’m speaking with Art Aronson, a communications professional with the provincial government of British Columbia. Art shares his story of being adopted from Thailand by his American parents and raised in Canada, on Vancouver Island. We talk about work-life satisfaction and the challenges he faces as a public servant. We also discuss the societal pressures to be or do certain things and how they influence our decisions.

If you enjoy the episode, do us a favour and subscribe, write a review, or share the show with a friend.

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00;00;01;27 - 00;00;23;08

Art Aronson

A lot of people have the history of their selves They know exactly where they were born. I just know some hazy facts that were given to us by the orphanage that I ultimately ended up getting. For me, it's all about putting myself in the best position to keep learning and being challenged every day. And I think for me, I've done that.

00;00;23;11 - 00;00;42;01

Art Aronson

Are you willing to do what it takes to get into a vocation or a job that fulfills you 100%? Because a lot of that is taking risk. And unfortunately, I think a lot of us are sitting in jobs or relationships because of societal pressure. Like this is what they should be doing, not what they want to be doing.

00;00;42;04 - 00;01;06;21

Matt Howlett

You are listening to the podcast, the show about men and masculinities, the challenges that modern men face and how to chart a better way forward. I'm your host, Matt Howlett, mental health coach and founder of The Orca. In this episode, I'm speaking with Art Aronson, a communications professional with the provincial government of British Columbia. Art shares his story of being adopted from Thailand by his American parents and being raised in Canada on Vancouver Island.

00;01;06;23 - 00;01;25;18

Matt Howlett

We talk about work, life satisfaction and the challenges he faces being in public service. We also discuss the societal pressures to be or do certain things and how they influence our decisions. If you enjoy this episode, do us a favor and subscribe. Write a review or share the show with a friend. Now here's a conversation with Art Aaronson.

00;01;25;20 - 00;01;32;05

Matt Howlett

All right. Man. Art Anson. Am I actually pronouncing that right? I don't think I've ever said your last name out loud.

00;01;32;07 - 00;01;58;01

Art Aronson

Yeah. So it is a Swedish name? Weirdly enough. Okay. Aaronson. Aaronson. No way. Yeah. So my parents, who are very interesting people. They are from America. Their ancestors are from. You know, you know how the United States is the immigration that came over from from Europe? Yeah. And, yeah. So the Aaronson is the Aaronson name. And, just a little bit of background about me personally.

00;01;58;05 - 00;02;30;21

Art Aronson

Yeah. They couldn't have children, and I think my mom figured that out when she was in her late 20s or something like that. And they they like to travel a lot, and they went over to, Southeast Asia. They were in Korea as well. They were in China. They were in, Vietnam. And, yeah, they, they I don't know if adoption was something that they like outright set out to do when they went and traveled.

00;02;30;23 - 00;03;00;03

Art Aronson

They taught English as a second language, to to people who were, you know, my dad actually got jobs in different countries teaching English as a second language, but they also taught they also taught English to, you know, people who couldn't afford to learn English in a lot of these, you know, small communities and, you know, these, you know, up and coming, third world countries like Thailand, where I'm from.

00;03;00;06 - 00;03;27;29

Art Aronson

So but to go back, there they, they interesting and long enough they were the first thing that they did was they sponsored two Vietnamese, teenagers and who I consider my brother and sister now. They were they were refugees from the Vietnam War. Okay. Like, if you remember the Civil War in Vietnam that was going on and, the war that was going on there with the American involvement?

00;03;28;03 - 00;03;48;27

Art Aronson

Yeah, it was it was a crazy time. And, a lot of people were fleeing the country. You know, from, you know, it was kind of the country was split in half and north in the south. And, so there were these people called boat people, and they, they, they were refugees basically fleeing the country because it was war torn.

00;03;48;27 - 00;04;17;14

Art Aronson

It was dangerous to be there. And my parents, first and foremost sponsored them, and they came to live in Canada, where my parents moved because my dad didn't want to be part of the Vietnam War. So he was what you call a draft dodger. Okay. Yeah. It was interesting because his his his is he had two brothers, and one of them got one of them got drafted and fought in that war.

00;04;17;14 - 00;04;39;29

Art Aronson

And he just basically was one of, you know, many, many Americans that didn't want to be a part of that war. Yeah. So he basically fled to Canada, and that's how he made his way into Canada. And while he was living in Canada, he sponsored him and his wife, my mom, they sponsored his two children. And, yeah, so that's my brother and sister.

00;04;39;29 - 00;05;09;10

Art Aronson

And then then they continued with this, and they adopted a, a young child in Korea. Who? My sister Jenny. And that was in the early, early 80s and in the mid 80s, they were traveling around in Thailand. And, that's where I was from. I'm, I basically as, a small child, I think I was maybe wasn't even one yet.

00;05;09;12 - 00;05;32;16

Art Aronson

Maybe I was one. Yeah. Just just over and it's this is hazy because I don't have the history of myself. A lot of like, yeah, a lot of people have the history of their selves. They know exactly where they were born. They know the time to who and everything like that. Yeah. I just know some hazy facts that were given to us by the orphanage that I ultimately ended up in.

00;05;32;21 - 00;05;45;14

Art Aronson

Yeah, yeah. So my brother and I, my brother's about a year younger than I, and even that's hazy. I don't know exactly how much younger he is. I don't know exactly my really myself.

00;05;45;17 - 00;05;51;29

Matt Howlett

Okay, wait wait, wait wait. You don't know when you were born, like your actual birthday for sure.

00;05;52;01 - 00;06;10;10

Art Aronson

No, I don't have a birth certificate. The orphanage that I ended up in, because they have a piece of paper that basically says, this child came to this orphanage at this date, we think he's about this old. No way. Wow. Yeah.

00;06;10;13 - 00;06;10;20

Matt Howlett

Yeah.

00;06;10;20 - 00;06;12;14

Art Aronson

So you don't get that? Same from my mother.

00;06;12;17 - 00;06;21;04

Matt Howlett

So you would assume that you were born in the same town. City as the orphanage? That's right. Yeah. What is that? Yeah.

00;06;21;06 - 00;06;33;16

Art Aronson

So that little town is called Stone claw, and it's in the southern tip of Thailand. If you've ever been to Thailand, there's a really skinny area. Yeah. It's close to the Malaysian border. Okay.

00;06;33;19 - 00;06;51;14

Matt Howlett

00;06;51;14 - 00;07;11;13

Matt Howlett

We both did a masters program together, and I knew I don't remember how it came up, maybe just in general conversation, meeting everybody because it was a small ish, cohort. But I knew that you were adopted. I knew that you would come from Thailand, but that's wild. I didn't know that. You, like, don't know for sure where exactly you were born.

00;07;11;13 - 00;07;16;08

Matt Howlett

Don't know your birth date. You and your brother. You said that's the same.

00;07;16;10 - 00;07;21;26

Art Aronson

Yeah. So it's interesting because my brother and I. Because we were. And this is according to the orphanage, we.

00;07;21;26 - 00;07;22;16

Matt Howlett

Were.

00;07;22;19 - 00;07;45;24

Art Aronson

Basically left on a sidewalk right outside of the orphanage. So for whatever reason, the people who were looking after me before that, my brother and I, supposedly our parents, our or, you know, maybe our mother or maybe our father, whoever it was decided that they couldn't look after us and just left us on the sidewalk in front of the orphanage.

00;07;45;24 - 00;08;14;20

Art Aronson

Yeah. And we were infants at that point, you know, we weren't walking. We weren't talking. We weren't, you know, at that we weren't really cognizant of anything. And. Yeah, so we we were lucky. I'm lucky. I consider myself overall that we that, you know, I was in a good orphanage and, these two folks from Canada, originally from the United States, were traveling Southeast Asia teaching English as a second language.

00;08;14;20 - 00;08;40;10

Art Aronson

Yeah. Looking at more adoption, you know, options, so to speak. And, you know, came across my brother and I, and we were at that time about three, two and three. So we had spent a couple of years in the orphanage waiting to be adopted or waiting to grow into, you know, yeah. Kids in, in southeast, south, south Thailand.

00;08;40;10 - 00;09;02;14

Art Aronson

So, yeah. And that's, that's basically that story because my parents decided that they liked us and, you know, the whole adoption thing takes a long time. I think it took them a year and a half since they when they first met us. Yeah. To able to take us back to Canada, to Vancouver Island here.

00;09;02;16 - 00;09;23;23

Art Aronson

Where you know, I live now where I grew up. And, you know, now become, you know, we've we're a family, and my parents are all they're in their 80s now, and I'm, you know, I'm 37, so I'm a full grown adult. So that when I look back at it, I'm like, wow, that's, you know, a long journey you could come from.

00;09;24;01 - 00;09;54;03

Art Aronson

Yeah. Small orphanage. And, you know, to be here I am. I consider myself quite fortunate because I could still be in Thailand doing, you know, who knows what. They say, they say the orphanage that, you know, usually if you don't get adopted, you become, a barber usually. Or you, at that time. Anyway, this was, you know, the 90s, the late 80s, early 90s in Thailand or, you know, you work in the rice fields, you know, that that's usually they give you the skills to become a barber.

00;09;54;03 - 00;10;00;04

Art Aronson

You, you know, you work out, you know, manual labor on the rice fields. Right. But they said wow.

00;10;00;07 - 00;10;15;27

Matt Howlett

So okay, so the obvious question is have you been back and did you do any, you know, research into those beginnings, into who your parents may or may not be? I mean, I'm assuming documentation is very limited.

00;10;16;00 - 00;10;40;06

Art Aronson

Documentation is very limited. Yes. My my parents now who my my adoptive parents now, they had like little leads apparently, you know, so this this kind of answers your question here. For a long time, I just was not interested. And, you know, I'm sure my, you know, my birth parents had their reasons for not, you know, not being able to take care of me or whatever.

00;10;40;09 - 00;11;05;16

Art Aronson

I just kind of considered this was my world. This is this is where I was meant to be. These are my parents now. I wasn't that curious about Thailand, but yes, my and my adopted parents, to their credit, have taken me back to Thai. They took me back to Thailand twice as I was a as I was kid to to go back to Stone claw, to go back to that area and, you know, be like, hey, this is where you were born.

00;11;05;16 - 00;11;16;13

Art Aronson

This is the orphanage you were at. You know, if you have any questions, you know, these, you know, maybe someone here can answer. You can start your own investigation if you want.

00;11;16;14 - 00;11;17;29

Matt Howlett

Right? That's very cool.

00;11;18;02 - 00;11;39;19

Art Aronson

But. Yeah, but I never. You know, I didn't really it didn't really interest me, honestly. And I know I think some people might find that strange because, you know, they, they want everybody wants to know their history about where they are, where they're from, who they are, all that sort of stuff. But to me was, this is my this is my life.

00;11;39;19 - 00;12;03;08

Art Aronson

This is where I am now. And I'm going to focus on that and not worry too much about the past. Yeah. You know, there are moments there are moments that where I, where I think, okay, you know, me, you know, maybe there is something back there that, that maybe I owe something. Maybe I owe something to my to my birth, my birth parents or whoever.

00;12;03;08 - 00;12;19;16

Art Aronson

It was my first caregivers. You know, maybe they're in trouble. Or maybe they could use my help. Sometimes I think about that. Yeah. But I don't I don't. Yeah, it's not something that dwells in my head, which I think that my shots and people.

00;12;19;19 - 00;12;42;07

Matt Howlett

Yeah, it probably will for some. But then there will be others who were just like you. I understand where you come from. I don't have any point of reference for that whatsoever. I mean, I grew up in the more traditional sense. You know, I had my mom and dad. I, was I know exactly where I was born when I was born, parents split when I was young.

00;12;42;09 - 00;13;05;29

Matt Howlett

But, you know, my father was still in the picture, just, you know, I guess the more just traditional divorced parents story, that's quite common. Yours is not common at all. But I can understand at least, the desire just to move forward, knowing what you know, because it sounds like your parents were great, especially giving you that opportunity and then being okay with you, not wanting to to dive into that.

00;13;05;29 - 00;13;09;27

Matt Howlett

Right. Just moving forward with, Victoria. Right. That's where you grew up?

00;13;10;00 - 00;13;27;28

Art Aronson

Yeah. Well, I grew up on Vancouver Island, and I grew up in a small town just north of here. Okay. And actually, I mean, this this is a long, kind of a long story. So, I mean, we could be talking for a long time about this, but my parents, actually, they brought when I first came to Canada, they were living on a small Gulf island.

00;13;27;28 - 00;13;49;27

Art Aronson

I don't know how familiar are with, the province of BC, but on Vancouver Island, they're these little, little islands. Yeah. You know, next you next to the islands they call the Gulf Islands. And there's this one little island called Fetus Island that they basically they had they had a house on and property. And that's basically where I grew up.

00;13;49;27 - 00;13;55;19

Art Aronson

And I went to school on Vancouver Island. I took a ferry over every day. No way. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00;13;55;22 - 00;14;04;22

Matt Howlett

Wow. I think I've actually heard of that. I mean, I'm aware of the Gulf Islands. I was in B.C., I don't know, maybe five, six years in total, but never been there.

00;14;04;24 - 00;14;26;21

Art Aronson

Yeah. I mean, a big one is Salt Spring Island. That's. Yeah, that's a huge island that most people know about, which is actually a golf island. It's the biggest golf island. There's other islands, Galiano Island, Valdez, and there's a little one called Pierce Island where which is off of a little town called Manus, which is near Duncan, which is near, Nanaimo, okay.

00;14;26;28 - 00;14;48;10

Art Aronson

Islands. So that's kind of the area that I grew up on, in and, yeah. So I went to high school and then I, you know, found my way to, I lived in Vancouver for a little while, going to school at, the, all school. It's a technology Institute of technology that, called Bissett.

00;14;48;12 - 00;14;53;00

Art Aronson

Oh, yeah. And I went there, you know, that's where I did. Oh, okay. Yeah. See, I didn't even know that.

00;14;53;00 - 00;14;59;17

Matt Howlett

00;14;59;20 - 00;15;15;20

Art Aronson

I should know you better than that. Is it? I didn't think it was called New Media when I was there, but it was when I took it in oh nine. It was the broadcast, broadcast, radio program. That's what I.

00;15;15;20 - 00;15;38;19

Matt Howlett

Oh, yeah. I think that was still existed when I was there. My program was a one year intensive, so it's like three semesters basically back to back, like 5 or 6 courses each. It was kind of crazy at, at some points, but, it was good. And we were in the broadcast building a couple of times a year, most of our classes elsewhere.

00;15;38;21 - 00;15;58;09

Matt Howlett

But yeah. Yeah, I was there for, for a year, enjoyed that experience. But what was it like for you growing up then? Because, I thought that you might have been like, the only foreigner in your class. But then I was like, nah, he grew up in Victoria. It's a bigger spot. But you didn't. You grew up in a much smaller place.

00;15;58;11 - 00;16;20;03

Art Aronson

Yeah. It was interesting because I grew up in a small, you know, that little, that small island where. Yeah, there wasn't there weren't a lot of, Nope. About nobody from Thailand other than my brother and I. Right. But, you know, Canada is very multicultural. Yeah. And one of the, one of the biggest things is, is our indigenous population, right.

00;16;20;06 - 00;16;46;10

Art Aronson

The First Nations, and, the First Nations, we had this little island reserve island next year, island called, at the time was called Cooper, and it was, now renamed Connecticut. Part of our reconciliation journey is, you know, acknowledging the and the languages and the names of, indigenous people and what they've been using since immemorial.

00;16;46;13 - 00;17;18;26

Art Aronson

I think my when it comes to like, having people that look different than you sound different than you was not was not something that was that prevalent. Because when you live in Canada, you know, we're pretty forthcoming to the immigrants. And the fact that a lot of people who are Caucasian or let's say, white or whatever, they live they live with indigenous people, and that every there's a there's a, there's a difference in the way people look that way.

00;17;18;26 - 00;17;46;12

Art Aronson

So for me, coming from Southeast Asia, yes, maybe I don't I don't look native and I don't look white. I look Southeast Asian. And there is a Filipino crowd that lived in the area as well. So yeah. Yeah, it's I don't yeah. It's one of those things that I never consider to be something that held me back or something that was really like, oh, that's significant about you, that you weren't white.

00;17;46;12 - 00;18;18;01

Art Aronson

And maybe that's a privilege that I have growing up in Canada, growing up, you know, in a community that accepts, you know, different cultures and, you know, different views, which is not the case across lots of parts of North America, as you know, lots of areas of the United States, lots of areas of, you know, Canada, where it I mean, at that time in the 90s or the late 80s, you know, maybe not as accepting of people who don't necessarily look like them and come from a different culture.

00;18;18;01 - 00;18;39;00

Art Aronson

So, yeah. Yeah. I don't I wouldn't say that it was, a childhood that I was brought up in where it was, a big deal. Yeah. Other, other than that, my parents were, you know, white Americans and they're like oh yeah. And all you could say is yeah, I'm adopted. Right.

00;18;39;03 - 00;18;43;13

Matt Howlett

Right. Just really quickly, where does the Swedish connection come from. Because you said they.

00;18;43;13 - 00;18;43;23

Art Aronson

Were both.

00;18;43;27 - 00;18;44;08

Matt Howlett

Born in the.

00;18;44;08 - 00;19;17;15

Art Aronson

States. Yeah. They're both born in the States. But you know, settlers. Right. Which I think I find very ironic about people who, in the United States who are, you know, against immigration, against people coming to their country and stuff. When how did the how did how did how did America start? Right. You know, settlers coming over from Europe, you know, joining the indigenous people, basically taking their land and saying, you know, this is where we live now.

00;19;17;20 - 00;19;35;08

Art Aronson

Yeah. And a lot of them come from, you know, areas of, you know, Europe. And I think my parents, if you were to go back in their history somewhere, the, you know, the er instance where probably from Swedish from Sweden. Right. And were Swedish. So yeah.

00;19;35;12 - 00;19;41;13

Matt Howlett

So there's a chance, there's a chance that your Viking, your, there's a chance like

00;19;41;16 - 00;19;44;08

Art Aronson

Yeah. That I'm a Tie fighter. Sure. I mean I didn't.

00;19;44;08 - 00;19;51;24

Matt Howlett

Blood that is now going to be the title of this episode the Art turns into Thai Viking.

00;19;51;27 - 00;19;52;21

Art Aronson

Yeah.

00;19;52;24 - 00;20;16;00

Matt Howlett

So what what challenges did you face or were there any growing up related to that? What do you even call that? Just just that background, that history, that not knowing, you know, did you just basically accepted, you know, the. Yeah. And obviously had a good relationship, it seems, with your parents and siblings, you probably had some supportive friends.

00;20;16;00 - 00;20;20;29

Matt Howlett

Like what? What was the first major challenge that you did experience growing up?

00;20;21;02 - 00;20;53;16

Art Aronson

I think the first one, which I should maybe talk about more, which I think is kind of interesting because I work in communications that I, you know, I write government documents now. I also broadcasted in numerous, mediums across BC and, you know, fairly high level, talking to a lot of people. But the very first thing I would say was that I was held back from kindergarten for a year because I didn't have English, like English.

00;20;53;18 - 00;21;20;23

Art Aronson

English isn't my first language. Right? But, I mean, I, I wouldn't say I was fluent in Thai either. I was very young, but I, they felt that I didn't have the skills to be in, in elementary school, in kindergarten, because my English was kind of holding me back a little bit at that point, really. So so that means I was a year behind the age that I was expected to be.

00;21;20;23 - 00;21;47;22

Art Aronson

00;21;47;27 - 00;22;01;25

Art Aronson

Yeah. My speaking ability, which obviously didn't really hold me back because here I hear I have been working, you know, as a broadcaster for ten years. I ten years broadcasting, you know.

00;22;01;27 - 00;22;06;01

Matt Howlett

So, yeah, you are a master, a master communicator.

00;22;06;03 - 00;22;26;19

Art Aronson

It's funny, I, you know, people hear me on the radio because I worked on radio the airwaves in Victoria for eight years or whatever. And they couldn't put us they, you know, they didn't they didn't know what I looked like. And then they would see me in public and they'd be like, oh, you're Art Aaronson from, you know, I was working at The zone or I was working at, yeah.

00;22;26;23 - 00;22;47;20

Art Aronson

00;22;47;20 - 00;23;14;13

Art Aronson

You know, when they hear that voice. Yeah. So I think, you know, when you when you think about perceptions and that sort of thing, maybe, you know, maybe that I wouldn't call it something that held me back. But it was always a curious thought when you think about me personally, personally and like my identity and, where I came from and where what I'm doing now as, you know, as a vocation, as, you know, as my job.

00;23;14;16 - 00;23;17;24

Art Aronson

Yeah. It seems it seems weird. Yeah.

00;23;17;26 - 00;23;45;19

Matt Howlett

Yeah. That you you mentioned the keyword there. Identity. That's what I was very curious about. And obviously the podcast is, you know, about men, masculinities, mental health, all of that tied in together. Let me switch direction just a little bit to get your take on, masculinity as it was relayed to you growing up, how you did in that context of smaller town ferrying to a high school, then go on to the bigger city, where did that come from for you?

00;23;45;19 - 00;23;52;20

Matt Howlett

Was that primarily your father? Was there other influences? And even now, what do you see there?

00;23;52;23 - 00;24;18;25

Art Aronson

Masculinity. That's that's a good one, because I feel like masculinity has the idea of what masculinity is, has really it's it's it's it's it's been muddied definitely. As we have more mediums, as we have more ways people such as yourself talking about it on podcast, more ways to look at what masculinity really means. And I think it's muddled.

00;24;18;28 - 00;24;42;00

Art Aronson

I think, I mean, my parents are, you know, from the American household during, you know, they're they're the boomers, obviously. They're they're from a time I don't know, you want to what do you call it? The Gold Age of American of America? I don't know, like, you know, they came they came out of the world wars and they were born in the early in the early 40s.

00;24;42;07 - 00;25;25;01

Art Aronson

And the wars, the wars were just ending, right? The world wars were just standing at that point. And it, you know, it was a different era, for America and the world and, you know, where's Matt? Yeah. I haven't thought about masculinity enough in that way. But I think growing up as someone who was coming from a different culture and this is interesting, and you bring this up because, it is not something that I thought about deeply about my identity and where I'm from and what it means to be, you know, a masculine, a male from, you know, Southeast Asia, from Thailand and coming to Canada, becoming a male in Tyler in Canada

00;25;25;01 - 00;25;35;11

Art Aronson

and growing up, growing up in Canada as a male. And what that means, what does that mean for masculinity? What does that mean for what I'm supposed to be? Yeah, it's it's different a lot.

00;25;35;11 - 00;26;05;22

Matt Howlett

And that's one of the reasons why I asked. Great. Because I did live there for a while. And I mean, to be fair, I lived more so in Vietnam than I did in Thailand, but I did see a lot of similarities between the two cultures, especially in the men. Not from my experience. I could be a bit off because I was I wasn't in Thailand as long as Vietnam, but in my experience, the Thai people were very, very kind, very open, very friendly, very helpful.

00;26;05;24 - 00;26;33;07

Matt Howlett

I know I didn't speak Thai, and I wasn't there long enough to learn much of it at all. So I didn't really have interactions with Thai men now, Vietnamese men, I did. The longer I was there. I got the opportunity to teach, to adult men. I was at an English center the majority of my time there, but, someone's parents, you know, connected me to these two business guys that wanted, a North American, man to work with.

00;26;33;07 - 00;26;52;26

Matt Howlett

And so I had that opportunity, which was probably one of my best memories, from that time working with those two guys. But I say that to say the majority of my experience with men, they're, the ones that I knew, very friendly, very personable, welcomed me into their homes. Part of that was because I was their teacher.

00;26;52;29 - 00;27;22;05

Matt Howlett

You know, there's a bit of, I suppose, prestige, because these guys were leaders in the community, business wise. And, you know, they had this English teacher that they thought highly of. I think I did a fairly decent job with them, but, but yeah, for the most part, masculinity there from, from what I saw, the men were traditional, I would say probably traditional in the sense of like the North American boomer generation, where men are a little bit more composed.

00;27;22;07 - 00;27;44;15

Matt Howlett

The leaders of the household, to an extent, definitely saw a lot of that, but I saw a lot more openness, when it comes to talking about feelings, talking about what they think, opinions on, not just, you know, life, politics, things that are more public but more personal. I found their personal lives. It was a bit easier to get to know them.

00;27;44;17 - 00;28;09;17

Art Aronson

Interesting. Yeah. So since I didn't, you know, grow up in a Thai household or anything, I grew up in your traditional household where, you know, you have the father, and the father was the masculine force, and my brother and I were that, you know, we had two sisters that were older than us. We I think I think it was very fairly traditional from that standpoint.

00;28;09;17 - 00;28;30;01

Art Aronson

I know my dad was he was always, you know, rough and tumble. He still is. Like, he he grew up, he he he raised us to be like, you know, like he's the man of the house. What he says goes, you know, like, there's no talking back. That sort of thing, which I think is a traditional, you know, North American household.

00;28;30;01 - 00;28;31;24

Art Aronson

I would say.

00;28;31;27 - 00;28;32;15

Matt Howlett

Especially from.

00;28;32;15 - 00;29;08;21

Art Aronson

That, you know, the Asian household is. Yeah, the Asian household is quite different. And Asia, Asia's a big place. But like Southeast Asia, I think and maybe you got a little bit of that, but people are very welcoming in their homes there. But, you know, people in Asia like the family in Thailand anyway, the families, they stayed together for a very, very long time and usually a lot of a lot of them, if they're not working, you know, in the rural areas, if they're, you know, in the cities, a lot of them have home businesses that they do right out of their home.

00;29;08;21 - 00;29;10;12

Art Aronson

Yeah. In Thailand. Right?

00;29;10;12 - 00;29;11;22

Matt Howlett

Yeah. I saw a lot, which.

00;29;11;25 - 00;29;40;02

Art Aronson

Yeah. Which, you know, that's not really something that we do a lot of here in North America, especially in Canada. Right. Your your place of home isn't your place of work either, which, you know, that's a whole different that's a whole, that's a whole different lifestyle. That, you know, that I think people are shocked at when they go to, you know, they go to Thailand or they go to Vietnam or other places, Malaysia, other places in Southeast Asia about how people live.

00;29;40;04 - 00;29;59;17

Art Aronson

So for me, it was very traditional, man, you know, masculinity. And my dad, who, you know, is a very military like because my, you know, my, my, my grandpa was in the, was in the Army as well and stuff like that. But my parents were as you as I said before, they were they were draft dodgers.

00;29;59;17 - 00;30;15;13

Art Aronson

They were they were hippies. They were, you know, they didn't want to be a part of that America. So they were they were different. They were different than traditional, you know, Americans as well. But yeah, my dad was still, you know, very traditional masculine household. And that's how we grew up.

00;30;15;16 - 00;30;24;09

Matt Howlett

Do you feel so do you feel that you've pulled more from your father as opposed to your mother in like, the way that you think, the way that you act, your personality?

00;30;24;11 - 00;31;02;27

Art Aronson

That's a good question. I think, I don't know. This is, this is there's I know there's a theory around this that I can't point to. Exactly. But when you're raised in a certain room, in a certain atmosphere, the things that you hate about it or the things that you like about it, it's almost like when you as you get older, I don't have any kids of my own myself, but I know that the things that I didn't like about growing up, I try not to be like that or I like I try not to be like the way my dad, you know, saw things like he's the type of guy who, like, he

00;31;02;27 - 00;31;25;09

Art Aronson

would put, he would put, little signs on the lights at night, like, turn off the lights, you know, that sort of thing, which I thought was ridiculous as a kid. And I thought it was annoying. He was a frugal guy. He was, you know, he was. He counted everything. He he had a plan before a plan before a plan.

00;31;25;09 - 00;31;44;21

Art Aronson

So, I don't know, I'm kind of the opposite of that. I'm a guy who doesn't love to have a plan. I'm a guy who likes to go with the wind. So, you know, I don't know if there's a theory and you might know one, but, like, you're the opposite of how you didn't like how you how you were raised or you didn't like this way.

00;31;44;26 - 00;32;04;10

Art Aronson

But then as you get older, you're like, wow, that kind of seems smart. Maybe I should I should have liked that more. Right? Right. I yeah. So I yeah, I what did I take from my parents I take from my dad, I think I took, I took lessons, you know, and okay, that was one way to live life.

00;32;04;10 - 00;32;24;05

Art Aronson

But maybe I don't want to live life that way. Right? You know, I don't know. You know, everybody looks when they look back at how they were raised, they probably have things that they liked about it, things that they didn't like about it. And then you can choose as a person, how you, will raise maybe, you know, if you want to have kids yourself.

00;32;24;12 - 00;32;29;23

Art Aronson

Yeah. How are you going to raise your kids, right? Yeah. So yeah, that was really long winded.

00;32;29;25 - 00;32;53;01

Matt Howlett

No, no, it's it's I find it very interesting and and I'm curious now, if there's any specific, like, talents or, you know, proclivities towards one thing or another that you notice in yourself that aren't in your parents, or maybe that they that are like, I'll give you an example, maybe I make what I'm seeing here a little bit clearer for me.

00;32;53;03 - 00;33;19;28

Matt Howlett

Yeah, I was a bit surprised as to my interest and general ability with music. I was always interested in music when I was younger and never really thought about learning a specific instrument until I was maybe, I don't know, 13 or 14. But then once I did, once I had that first experience, got really deep into it. Learn drums first, then I learned acoustic guitar, learn piano in college.

00;33;20;01 - 00;33;49;10

Matt Howlett

And it's a very, important part of who I am. A very important part of my not so much day to day anymore. But, it wasn't your identity. Yeah, very much part of my identity, but it it didn't come from either side of my family, even, like, you know, if you think past my parents now, my mother's brother, like, he had an acoustic guitar growing up, and my mom, like, used to sing in the kitchen.

00;33;49;10 - 00;34;07;20

Matt Howlett

I remember certain songs that would which kind of stand out and still stick in my head because she's she's gone now. But, I found that interesting. I was like, where did that really come from? Like, what part of my family, you know, where did that come from? That's what I'm curious about with you, because obviously you're from a obviously a very different context, different country.

00;34;07;22 - 00;34;15;25

Matt Howlett

Did you pick up any of the the skills and abilities from your mom and dad, or did something come out of the blue and surprise you?

00;34;15;28 - 00;34;44;17

Art Aronson

I see where you're going with this, like the nature versus nurture kind of thing. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Because no, I'm very like, I mean, there's certain traits my, my, my mom is I would consider one of the most patient people I've ever met. My dad, not very patient at all. I was telling you, you're like, you know, if you if he came home at a certain time, you had to be.

00;34;44;18 - 00;35;08;11

Art Aronson

You had to be ready to be like, he's coming home. Let's let's, like, this evening's going like we're eating at 6:00. We got to eat at 6:00, that sort of thing. Yeah. So I think certain, like, personality traits, you can kind of react from that environment, but like, let's, let's say here, like I'm really into sports. My parents are not into sports.

00;35;08;11 - 00;35;08;22

Matt Howlett

At.

00;35;08;22 - 00;35;26;18

Art Aronson

All. Not even like a little bit. You don't they never played, but they gave us the space to, you know, we showed interest in it because maybe our friends showed interest in it. And, you know, I played a lot of basketball as a kid. I like a lot of hockey as a kid. And they weren't into they weren't into that.

00;35;26;18 - 00;35;50;06

Art Aronson

That's not something that, you know, maybe, maybe. And, you know, this is where people were very curious, were like, you know, maybe my my birth parents were athletic, right? Yeah. Whereas my parents are not athletic. They were not athletic at all. But I like to play sports. So, you know, where did I pick that up from? Where I picked the up pick up the ability to play sports.

00;35;50;06 - 00;36;05;16

Art Aronson

Is that just because that was something I showed interest in when I was a kid, or is it something that, you know, is in my back, in my genes now? I'll never know the answer, right? Yeah. I'll never know the answer that.

00;36;05;18 - 00;36;30;29

Matt Howlett

Yeah, yeah, it's an interesting one. I think about that every, every now and then because personally I've always felt, just a little bit different. I don't really know how to put that into words, but I was definitely very introverted as a kid, so that's probably part of it. I didn't have this, like, strong sense of belonging when I was younger, strands of community.

00;36;31;00 - 00;36;51;26

Matt Howlett

And there's a couple, people, a couple guys or around me in, the area that I grew up that we were close friends. And that was until, a brown grade seven, grade eight. And then it all kind of changed, like the whole social landscape just shifted, kind of abruptly and but, yeah, I was curious about that.

00;36;51;28 - 00;37;10;02

Matt Howlett

One the other thing, I'd love to kind of just jump into a different topic here. You were talking to me about your job right now you're with the provincial government. What does that look like right now for you with the election coming up? And like the stress of that as work ramping up?

00;37;10;05 - 00;37;37;09

Art Aronson

Yeah, it's it's interesting because we just had a provincial election. Right. So in Canada you have provinces and then you have the federal government, two different levels of government. And they don't work really in unison of each other like hardly. And in fact, people find that confusing in Canada because like, there's a provincial NDP party and then there's a federal NDP party, and neither of them are affiliated in any other way other than name.

00;37;37;17 - 00;38;05;09

Art Aronson

And, there's a lot of uncertainty right now with, how the federal government will work with the American government. And that impacts how B.C. works with the with the American government. So I would say there is uncertainty and there is a lot of, unrest and working in communications. It ramps up because we're constantly changing our position on messaging.

00;38;05;09 - 00;38;46;02

Art Aronson

That's basically what government messaging is. What we're saying about a certain topic each day changes and that means more work for me, basically because I'm brainstorming, writing, you know, being in the war room about how like, how are we going to communicate this to the general population? Yeah. So that has definitely ramped up. There's very aggressive messaging right now towards the southern, our southern partners to the south of the border because of, the tariffs that were announced by, the government in the United States and how B.C. is going to react to it, how the federal government is going to react to it.

00;38;46;04 - 00;38;58;22

Art Aronson

It's hard to work with the federal government right now because it's it's been the snap election has been called. So there's nobody you know, there is no government right now. It's what's called an interregnum period.

00;38;58;24 - 00;39;01;13

Matt Howlett

What? Wait, what was that? So I never heard that before.

00;39;01;15 - 00;39;05;20

Art Aronson

A what it's called it, it's called, interregnum.

00;39;05;23 - 00;39;08;16

Matt Howlett

Regnum to regnum.

00;39;08;19 - 00;39;41;03

Art Aronson

Yeah. Look that up. There's no, there's no government sitting right now. There's no MLAs sworn in, so government doesn't exist. It's when government is dissolved and it's a period of time between the election and when the writ is dropped. And it's called interregnum. Yeah. That's a now consider me educated. Yeah, yeah. I just learned that, a few years ago, working government because, the snap elections are called and, there's a period of time when there's no in government, they call it the interregnum.

00;39;41;06 - 00;39;54;07

Art Aronson

Yeah, yeah. So anyway, yeah, it's it's very it's, it's a lot right now and I'm learning a lot about, you know, how governments work with each other and how they react to each other during times of uncertainty. Because this is a time of uncertainty.

00;39;54;11 - 00;40;14;19

Matt Howlett

Yeah. And I mean, where I was kind of going with that question is, you know, we both did the master's in communications degree. We did it for different reasons. I wasn't really in that field going into that degree. I was, you know, in doing related work for sure. But you chose that and you had been in that field.

00;40;14;19 - 00;40;37;16

Matt Howlett

You had been in broadcasting primarily. That's correct. Okay. So, how do you feel about where you are right now? You know, life satisfaction was doing it for the rest of your life type of thinking. You know, is there change on the horizon? How do you how do you sort that out? Because it sounds like right now it's stressful, sounds like there is some enjoyment.

00;40;37;18 - 00;40;41;01

Matt Howlett

But, you know what's next?

00;40;41;03 - 00;41;08;28

Art Aronson

00;41;08;28 - 00;41;34;28

Art Aronson

I'm a full grown adult at this point. And working in government, there are certain, there are certain comforts to it. There's a pension. You know, you're working toward your future in that way. You're, you know, I, I, I the reason I jumped from, broadcast journalism, you know, into this area organization of communications and government, it was because it just simply paid more money.

00;41;35;01 - 00;41;56;27

Art Aronson

So. Sure. And what are we all trying to do? We're trying to survive. We're all trying to, create a future for ourselves in one way or the other. And I did it because I felt like working in broadcast. That's a certain different that's a certain area of community communications is huge. It's a broad spectrum of things.

00;41;56;27 - 00;42;23;21

Art Aronson

Yeah. And I had done that for ten years. So once I had gotten my Master of Arts in professional communication, I thought, you know what, maybe I should tackle organizational communications, give myself another set of skills. For me, it's all about, putting myself in the best position, to keep learning and being challenged every day. And I think for me, I've done that.

00;42;23;23 - 00;42;44;20

Art Aronson

I'm 37, you know, everybody probably thinks they should be further along in life than they are. Sure. I'm at a certain age, right. But I can at least look back at my history, my work in professional history to say that I've, I've, I've been able to put together a good set of skills and I think that's that's what my parents always wanted for me.

00;42;44;20 - 00;43;03;08

Art Aronson

They were always like, you know, get a skill. That's what my dad always said, get a skill. Then you become employable when you can. You know you can. You can fend for yourself physically. You know, you can earn for yourself. And I feel like that I've put myself in a position where, I'm employable. Oh, definitely a good candidate.

00;43;03;11 - 00;43;09;28

Matt Howlett

Well, yeah. I mean, well, you've obviously done several different things now and had success in every single one of these areas.

00;43;10;00 - 00;43;14;02

Art Aronson

Yeah. And I think, I think that's all I can ask for at this point. Well.

00;43;14;02 - 00;43;23;00

Matt Howlett

If money here's the famous question. If money wasn't an issue, you could do whatever you wanted. What would it be? It's probably not just one.

00;43;23;01 - 00;43;45;03

Art Aronson

Thing, but yeah, I think I and I think about it all the time. I think I would kind of be back in the creative space that you are in. Not that government is not creative at all levels, because you do. I do have to be creative in the way that I craft language, but sure, it's not fulfilling from, you know, what my interests are like.

00;43;45;03 - 00;44;03;06

Art Aronson

I you know, so I think I would be do kind of doing what you're doing right now with these podcasts. I think I would I always said to myself, if I had all the money in the world, not a problem. Yeah. You know, if that wasn't an issue, I'd probably tell stories. I would I be documentary making? Oh, that's.

00;44;03;06 - 00;44;04;04

Art Aronson

Yeah.

00;44;04;06 - 00;44;06;00

Matt Howlett

I like that. That's so interesting to me.

00;44;06;04 - 00;44;32;04

Art Aronson

Yeah. And you know what that is? That's talking to people. That's, that's, you know, figuring out their stories, that's, you know, trying to come up with, with something that people would find entertaining, that I find entertaining. Yeah. I think there's a creative space there that in organizational communication and government that doesn't quite tickle my fancy. So, but, yeah, you know, those are those are things.

00;44;32;04 - 00;44;54;16

Art Aronson

Those are those are avenues that, you know, you have to look within yourself. Are you willing to do what it takes to, to get into a vocation or a job that fulfills you 100%? Because a lot of that is taking risk, right? Actually, working in government right now, you know, I'm not taking a lot of risks, from a creative side in government.

00;44;54;20 - 00;44;55;17

Art Aronson

So.

00;44;55;19 - 00;45;16;13

Matt Howlett

Yeah, I think about that, often myself because I've never been the type of person that just does one thing, you know, just gets on a track, right? It just goes to, you know, say medical school and, you know, get your first placement and then maybe start up your own practice and have your own office and whatever, and just, you know, kind of go up that ladder or corporate.

00;45;16;15 - 00;45;43;11

Matt Howlett

I've never really been that. I had no idea, honestly, when I was younger, I grew up in church. That side of things just felt right to me. I was very heavily involved from, say, 15, 16 onward and just kind of did what felt right at the time. But making content, though, I love that. I definitely love being on the creative side and have been, throughout.

00;45;43;11 - 00;46;07;09

Matt Howlett

And that's why I think, I, I'm interested in that question for just about anybody that I meet. I don't talk about it with everybody, but it's there's always something about your life that sticks out. Right. And it's just whether or not we're actually going to listen to that and take that risk, you know what I mean? Because like, music and and creativity, that's always been a theme since I was, jeez, I don't know, probably 9 or 10.

00;46;07;16 - 00;46;27;19

Matt Howlett

I remember like one of the first things that I kind of made, it was a gift from my mother. And then that kind of continued and not in the same like, not with the same medium, but always making something and then getting really into it and then forgetting about time, you know, forgetting about food because you're so wrapped up and in what you're doing right.

00;46;27;22 - 00;46;51;28

Matt Howlett

I had a conversation with the psychologist friend of mine, for the podcast, just a couple of episodes back about finding your profession, you know, and sometimes we we find a job, and they make ends meet. Then it's okay. We're, like, mostly satisfied. But what we want is a profession where we are literally, like, professing ourselves doing the thing that we want to see in the world.

00;46;52;01 - 00;46;53;15

Art Aronson

You know.

00;46;53;17 - 00;47;16;18

Matt Howlett

In the work that we do. And that's, that's what I'm after. I felt like I had that for a period of time as a pastor. But I've, I've changed. And that's no longer a good fit for me, but, yeah, I want everybody to find that. I think especially as men, we we need that. We need to find work that is not just satisfying, but a force for good.

00;47;16;20 - 00;47;18;20

Matt Howlett

Does that make sense to you?

00;47;18;22 - 00;47;42;24

Art Aronson

Yeah, I think that. And you know what? I think that. Yeah, yeah, a force for good. That's a whole other thing. But do you, do you do you find this question for you? Expectations, societal expectations, expectations for yourself. Does that impact the decisions that you make when you're thinking about a job or thinking about adventure, trying to find something that's fulfilling?

00;47;42;27 - 00;47;48;02

Matt Howlett

Absolutely it. I would say it affects the thinking, the processing.

00;47;48;04 - 00;47;49;07

Art Aronson

Of.

00;47;49;09 - 00;48;11;01

Matt Howlett

Love, the idea. I, I don't think it has as much of an effect now as it did when I was younger. On the outcome. If that makes sense, because I'm more aware of the societal expectations. I'm more aware of what I want and what I want to be driven by. You know what I mean? When I was younger, yeah, definitely.

00;48;11;04 - 00;48;33;00

Matt Howlett

The outcome was more influenced by societal expectations, for sure. But right now, you know, because I'm very much in a period of, of flux, I've only been doing the podcast for, about a year. I'm 17, I think 18 episodes in, no sponsors, there's no income. From the podcast right now. But I like what I'm doing.

00;48;33;00 - 00;48;53;05

Matt Howlett

I think conversations, you know, like what I'm trying to have need to happen. So I believe in what I'm doing, and it is satisfying. And, like, Dana and I are going to be doing some of this together, creating courses, creating ways for there to be some revenue in the future with this. But ultimately, that's not why we're doing it.

00;48;53;05 - 00;49;13;05

Matt Howlett

It's we're doing it because it needs to happen. You know? It's because it feels like work that is meaningful and needs to be done. You know what I mean? And I hope it can be something that, provides, you know, obviously income that everybody needs. But I do feel the pressure of that. We talk about that often.

00;49;13;07 - 00;49;14;19

Art Aronson

00;49;14;21 - 00;49;22;07

Matt Howlett

It's yeah, it's an ongoing struggle for sure. That's it's a hard one to simply not be influenced by.

00;49;22;09 - 00;49;42;04

Art Aronson

Yeah. And unfortunately, I think a lot of us, you know, I have friends, you have friends that are sitting in jobs or things that they're doing, even relationships. They're in because of a pressure, a societal pressure, not, you know, not not just from within, but like, this is what they should be doing, not what they want to be doing.

00;49;42;06 - 00;50;08;19

Art Aronson

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And I think that's that's one of the, you know, life's biggest, conundrums. I think that we see for everyone. So, I wish that upon everybody that they can, you know, be brave or be in that space like you're in right now, you know, some of the best, the best things that have come that have come in my life have been in those in those times of flux when you don't know what you're doing.

00;50;08;25 - 00;50;35;15

Art Aronson

But a lot of people don't even want to jump into that. I don't think because of that, because of societal pressures, because of the, you know, uncertain times or when the next check is coming or how they're going to get, you know, from here to there. Yeah. Or the fact that you're in that I applaud that because a lot of people won't even, you know, won't even allow themselves to be in that spot, and they'd rather be stuck in whatever position that they're at, right now.

00;50;35;15 - 00;50;51;20

Art Aronson

And you know what? I you know, if I'm being honest, you know, I, I think about it all the time. I'm like, well, man, you know, get off your ass, guard. If you're not happy about doing what you're doing, you know, you have to make a change at some point. Don't be lazy about it, you know? So yeah.

00;50;51;22 - 00;51;00;29

Matt Howlett

Yeah. Well, I mean, you have opportunity. I mean, you have, you know, we were saying before the recording started the equipment that you can work with. Oh, is that Kobe penis? A.

00;51;00;29 - 00;51;03;04

Art Aronson

Little bit, yeah.

00;51;03;07 - 00;51;09;11

Matt Howlett

Yeah. For our listeners, is this just, like, is this a specific breed? Kobe is your cat.

00;51;09;13 - 00;51;15;27

Art Aronson

I'd say she's, she's a, she's a part Maine Coon, part tabby. Oh. No way.

00;51;15;28 - 00;51;22;04

Matt Howlett

Okay, you can't see Tom. Dana's cat, major Tom. He's a Siberian.

00;51;22;11 - 00;51;22;29

Art Aronson

They can.

00;51;23;01 - 00;51;32;17

Matt Howlett

Major Tom. Yeah. I constantly sing to him, Bowie tunes, but, yeah, he kind of looks like Kobe.

00;51;32;20 - 00;51;45;01

Art Aronson

You know, nice. Kobe's named after, the late, great basketball, great Kobe Bryant. Yeah. And, yeah, she's, she's she's been my child for the last three years.

00;51;45;03 - 00;51;51;20

Matt Howlett

I would, yeah, I would show you major Tom, but he's deep in sleep right now, and he does not like to be disturbed.

00;51;51;23 - 00;51;57;17

Art Aronson

Jacobi, you know, got up from her two hours sleep here just to say hi. Yeah.

00;51;57;20 - 00;52;14;02

Matt Howlett

Listen, man, I really enjoyed catching up with you and hearing your take on a few things. I think at some point in the future, maybe when you are finding yourself in a period of flux, I'm going to have to have you back on and see, see what you're doing. I would, I, I could see you doing a documentary.

00;52;14;04 - 00;52;33;09

Matt Howlett

No problem. Yeah, yeah, we'll definitely man you. I think you have like, the mind for that where it's not simply the creative side which you obviously have, but that intellectual side that's required to make something that actually matters, make something that's interesting, that isn't just entertaining. You know what I mean?

00;52;33;12 - 00;52;34;00

Art Aronson

Yeah.

00;52;34;02 - 00;52;34;27

Matt Howlett

I think so. Okay.

00;52;34;27 - 00;53;00;06

Art Aronson

Yeah. Yeah, I appreciate that. I and to just relay on a little bit yourself, I think you, you have the conversation side of this podcast really well because a lot of people don't have that. They'll say they'll start a podcast or they'll do a documentary and they don't have the communication skills to, create something. That someone is where someone would want to listen to.

00;53;00;08 - 00;53;14;16

Art Aronson

I think you have that. It's a skill that you can't really teach, I don't think I don't think it's a skill you could teach, you know? I mean, you can work at it, but you I think you ultimately have that. So I would say keep at it yourself. And then you're kind of what you're doing right now is making a mini documentary.

00;53;14;16 - 00;53;16;03

Art Aronson

That's kind of what you're doing, right?

00;53;16;10 - 00;53;55;11

Matt Howlett

Yeah, I can see that. Yes. Especially when it's interviews like this that are a little bit more personal, aren't about, say, a book release or, you know, a very specific topic. I definitely want to keep these intertwined, with other episodes, you know, these more personal stories, going forward. But I definitely need, I've noticed, the need to dig into some specific topics around masculine because for the most part, now, outside of the episodes that I did with Ron Johnson, the psychologist I mentioned, the other episodes are primarily stories and, and and they're great.

00;53;55;11 - 00;53;58;25

Matt Howlett

But I definitely want to put out more.

00;53;58;27 - 00;53;59;27

Art Aronson

00;53;59;29 - 00;54;18;16

Matt Howlett

Specific topics like teaching educational type stuff where I'm bringing on experts or even talking to topics, myself and bringing my wife on because Dean is a, clinical counselor as well. And, yeah, I'm, I'm very much looking forward to that because that's going to be fun. Yeah.

00;54;18;19 - 00;54;41;25

Art Aronson

Would you, would you say that that the, the, what's the theory? But the prevailing thought around masculinity is very muddled right now. Like, we don't really know. Would you like I know, I know there I've seen some stories that are not stories, but some theories that masculinity is being beaten, beaten down, beaten away. It's not really a thing anymore.

00;54;41;25 - 00;54;45;15

Art Aronson

Would you. What are your thoughts on that?

00;54;45;17 - 00;55;12;22

Matt Howlett

Well, when you said it was muddled first, I agree with you wholeheartedly. Yeah, but I think it's difficult to draw lines right now because I don't think there are like really clear sides. And what makes this very clear to me is I've been doing a marketing project, and with that same psychologist and his wife, they recently released a book, called balls, Men Finding Courage.

00;55;12;22 - 00;55;31;00

Matt Howlett

Yeah, it's a great title. Men Finding Courage with words, work, wine and women. And so the premise of the book is that a man needs to know himself. He needs to be honest with himself about what he thinks and what he feels, and he needs to be able to be honest in how he communicates that to the world.

00;55;31;02 - 00;55;57;05

Matt Howlett

That's that's the the main thing that is kind of pushed throughout those four subtopics. And so in, in working with them over the past, jeez, five, five, six months. And I'm going to continue to consult with them going forward. I've been managing a lot of their comments and like the feedback. So like, you know, I've been running ads, if you remember, I work with an agency and kind of do that on the side as well.

00;55;57;08 - 00;56;08;07

Matt Howlett

So I'm seeing all types of comments. Right. And I'm targeting men primarily. And so I'm getting men that are sharing the content as saying thank you.

00;56;08;11 - 00;56;09;04

Art Aronson

00;56;09;07 - 00;56;42;07

Matt Howlett

They agree or they're some of them are sharing conflicting opinions and doing so in a mature way. But the majority honestly, man, it's it's disappointing the majority that I've seen, I would say 60% of the comments have been toxic and I hate to use the word, but it's the most appropriate term that I can think of because they for one, these two clients, Ron, is, I think 82 and Deb is, I think ten years younger, 72.

00;56;42;09 - 00;57;05;24

Matt Howlett

So they're they're senior citizens, right? So first of all, I think there should be respect in general. You know what I mean when you are speaking to someone online. But if you see someone who has clearly got some experience behind them speaking to something, a topic that, you know, you can assume that they know something about, it's like you, you know, you, you know, you got your master's degree in communication.

00;57;05;24 - 00;57;25;24

Matt Howlett

You've been in government. If you speak to government, I can respect what you're saying. I might not agree with it. And I can present an a conflicting opinion, but I can do it in a way that's respectful. I'm not even seeing that, you know what I mean? I don't even think, you know, the 60% of these guys that are commenting, I don't even think they have formed an opinion, you know what I mean?

00;57;25;24 - 00;57;50;27

Matt Howlett

They're just lashing out, I think because something that Ron or Deb has said in one of these videos is, is hitting some point of some part of their ego, some part of past trauma that is not sorted out yet, something that they're just like unsure about and and uncomfortable dealing with themselves. And it's dude, it's some of the comments.

00;57;50;27 - 00;58;21;24

Matt Howlett

I've actually had to report them because it's just, very aggressive sexual, derogatory. And I'm just disappointed at how often I see that. So yeah, it's the concept of masculinity is definitely muddled because I'm seeing these men that think, for one, it's okay to just completely be inappropriate with a woman, you know, 72 years old who's been a psychologist for like 40 plus years.

00;58;21;29 - 00;58;30;17

Matt Howlett

Right. I wish I could show you. I don't even want to repeat some of the comments, but yeah. Yeah, it's it's not.

00;58;30;18 - 00;58;43;03

Art Aronson

What I think. What you're saying is it's hard it's hard to have a discussion on anything around that in, in using that, you know, using, using the, the ways that you're trying to have it right now. It's been hard. Yeah.

00;58;43;03 - 00;59;06;06

Matt Howlett

We'll, I'll just relay something to you that actually Ron said you can't have a discussion if there's emotion involved. Right. If you are emotional, you can't really have, a, you know, a debate, a respectful discussion. It's going to be an argument. There's going to be lines that are drawn. Someone's going to get hurt. Both people are going to get hurt.

00;59;06;06 - 00;59;33;20

Matt Howlett

There's going to be a fence taken. Whatever. Right. So I feel like so much of this conversation is is difficult and toxic. And you can't you can't really get these guys to present an opinion. So in like I said, in moderating these comments, I would often jump in as myself rather than speak on their behalf. And just part of it is because they're learning how to do it and and whatever.

00;59;33;20 - 00;59;52;25

Matt Howlett

But I often would just log in as myself and, and go and interact with these guys and be like, so what is it exactly that you know, can you put it into words here? What is it that you feel? Why are you coming against this in such a negative way? What's the actual argument there? Right. There hasn't been one person yet that has responded.

00;59;52;29 - 01;00;03;09

Matt Howlett

They just, you know, basically take a digital dump on whatever it is that, you know, the piece of content is and then runaway. Right? And that's.

01;00;03;09 - 01;00;03;29

Art Aronson

Yeah.

01;00;04;01 - 01;00;06;13

Matt Howlett

It's disappointing.

01;00;06;16 - 01;00;30;11

Art Aronson

Yeah. Yeah, I, I see that frustration. I share, that frustration whenever I, do the doomscrolling, you know, you've heard, heard that phrase doomscrolling. Yeah. Yeah. The comment section on anything. It doesn't matter if it's the most profound theory in the world there, or if it's the worst theory in the world. The comment section on it.

01;00;30;13 - 01;00;36;28

Art Aronson

Normally, it doesn't matter what we're talking about. It can be anything, but you can literally ruin anything with a comment section.

01;00;37;04 - 01;01;03;28

Matt Howlett

Oh yeah. I don't feel like I, I don't expect the internet to be some, you know, happy place full of rainbows and unicorns, right? I mean, I know what I, I'm getting these guys into because, dude, that the, the main part of this project was bringing their business basically into the 21st digital century, right? I mean, they were working just fine, had a profitable business and helping a lot of people, but, you know, didn't have a, more modern website, didn't have social media.

01;01;03;29 - 01;01;44;27

Matt Howlett

Right. So they're they're getting this like, almost like shock and awe experience of the technical side of it. But then the reality of what it's actually like to interact with random people on the internet, right? But yeah, I mean, it's definitely muddled. I hope I can be a strong and clear voice. I try to stay on top of reading because that is the main thing that I think was, is my job outside of doing these podcasts, to make sure that I'm aware of not just relevant topics and what's going on, but, you know, where we've come from and where we could be going and understand that a little bit better.

01;01;44;27 - 01;01;54;04

Matt Howlett

And I didn't grow up with, you know, I've never really, dug into those topics until the past couple of years.

01;01;54;06 - 01;02;01;19

Art Aronson

Well, good for you, man. That's. Yeah, that's a lot. And sounds like you're passionate about it. Which that's the number one thing, man. Yeah.

01;02;01;21 - 01;02;10;19

Matt Howlett

Yeah, yeah, I think it's a product of how I grew up, to be honest. You know, a little bit of a close minded religious community and then not having.

01;02;10;22 - 01;02;11;25

Art Aronson

01;02;11;28 - 01;02;22;18

Matt Howlett

Well, parents being split. Dad's still in the picture, but not having a father. That was like a good role model, you know what I mean? There's a lot that I learned from my dad that I had to unlearn.

01;02;22;21 - 01;02;23;11

Art Aronson

Yeah.

01;02;23;13 - 01;02;39;02

Matt Howlett

So, And I just see it, you know, I, I see it in the world. I see it as a a massive need. Like what? What if we could make men, or help men to become more mature and find work that they love.

01;02;39;04 - 01;02;39;17

Art Aronson

And.

01;02;39;17 - 01;02;53;08

Matt Howlett

You know, heal relationship. You know what I mean? Like, that's that's big picture, world changing stuff. And it feels it feels like too big sometimes to be within reach. But you got to kind of believe that. I mean.

01;02;53;08 - 01;03;20;05

Art Aronson

It's an argument is made and the numbers bear it out. That, you know, the mental health of men have led to many, many, many deaths because, you know, just the poor mental health of men, you know, and the expectations, the societal expectations on a lot of men, it's it's, you know, I don't know what the percentage is, but a large percentage of suicides, death by suicide is men.

01;03;20;07 - 01;03;40;05

Art Aronson

And in in some sense, you know, it can it can it can grow. If you can figure out yourself and what you want, you know, you can grow into something beautiful. Or if you can't figure it out and you can't handle the pressure and you don't know exactly yourself, then you, you know, find yourself down a dark path, which I think a lot of you know, men do.

01;03;40;08 - 01;04;01;22

Art Aronson

Yeah. It's not sexy, really, to talk about it in a lot of media. Really. Right. And, you know, I think that's obvious as well. Mainstream media is not really huge. On talking about men's mental issues. Mental health issues. It's not yeah. You know, it's not it's not a it's not it's not high on the list of things.

01;04;01;24 - 01;04;20;14

Matt Howlett

Yeah I don't think so. Do you. You see it the more that you get into it. Like obviously I'm in that world. So I'm checking out, videos related to these, these topics. So I see more content because obviously the algorithms, you know, you like one video, then you're going to get shown five others that are similar. So I see more of it.

01;04;20;16 - 01;04;43;28

Matt Howlett

And I do feel like the tides are turning, a little bit, you know, and mainly speaking to North American context, but this is a long way to go, a long way to go to the point where we can have an open, respectful, honest discussion about, you know, what is the current state of masculinity? What does it mean to be a good man?

01;04;44;00 - 01;05;01;25

Matt Howlett

Right. And that's the whole premise of the podcast. And that's where I feel like a lot more of these conversations need to go. I want to dig into answering that question from different angles here. What I mean, and so that's why even, you know, on this, this episode here, I'm just chatting with you about, do you like your job?

01;05;01;27 - 01;05;09;23

Matt Howlett

And if you do not, well, what do we do about that? You know, how do you process that? What does that feel like? What does that look like.

01;05;09;26 - 01;05;23;22

Art Aronson

Yeah I mean yeah. Yeah. Not that that comes at you from all angles. Why do people do what they do? Yeah. It's, it's a it's a good thing to delve into, man. What time is it there?

01;05;23;25 - 01;05;33;20

Matt Howlett

It's five now, and, I'm probably going to have to, to call it and go. I think Dan is doing some meal prep downstairs now. I'm going to go and jump in and.

01;05;33;22 - 01;05;36;26

Art Aronson

I'll be off real nice.

01;05;36;28 - 01;05;38;14

Matt Howlett

All right, man, it's good to catch up with.

01;05;38;14 - 01;05;39;09

Art Aronson

You to see your face, man.

01;05;39;13 - 01;05;41;08

Matt Howlett

Yeah, sure wish you the best, man.

01;05;43;08 - 01;06;01;11

Matt Howlett

Thank you for listening. I hope you found some value in this episode. If you have, be sure to share the podcast with a friend and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. You can find the akkeri on socials at theakkeri and on the web at theakkeri.com.