Shownotes
My guest today spent the first 30 years of his life thinking he was white. It wasn’t until he spoke to his biological father for the first time that he discovered that he is half black.
Since then Michael has utilized his award winning autobiographical story, told in the form of a one-man play, as an entry point for meaningful dialogues on race and identity, and in his most recent book Nobody Wants to Talk About It: he has assembled a set of seven important tools and takeaways useful in navigating uncomfortable conversations about race and identity - something this country desperately needs.
Listen in as I talk with Michael about these 7 tools and so many other ideas around race and identity.
Drink of the week…black and white cocktail
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Julie Brown:
Michael Fosberg
Transcripts
Could you imagiNe a scenario in which your entire identity
2
:could change in a split second?
3
:This is exactly what happened to my
guest today, Michael Fosberg, who was
4
:raised in a working class Armenian
American family led by his biological
5
:mother and his adoptive father.
6
:When, in his 30s, his parents
divorced, Michael began a search to
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:find his long lost father, a search
that would forever change his life.
8
:Welcome to episode 181 of this shit
works, a podcast dedicated to all
9
:things, networking, relationship
building, and business development.
10
:I'm your host, Julie Brown, speaker,
author, and networking coach.
11
:And today I am joined by Michael speaker,
playwright, and author of the book,
12
:race, identity, and the difficulties
in forging meaningful conversations.
13
:When Michael decided to look
for his biological father, his
14
:mother gave him information on
where she knew he had last lived.
15
:Michael tracked him down by phone
and to his great relief, his
16
:father was happy to talk to him.
17
:But in that first conversation, his father
told him something that would change
18
:Everything about the way he saw himself.
19
:His father is black.
20
:Since then, Michael has utilized his
award winning autobiographical story
21
:told in the form of a one man play.
22
:As an entry point for meaningful dialogues
on race and identity, and in his most
23
:recent book, Nobody Wants to Talk About
It, he has assembled a set of seven
24
:important tools and takeaways useful in
navigating uncomfortable conversations
25
:about race and identity, something
that this country desperately needs.
26
:Michael, welcome to the podcast.
27
:Michael: Thank you, Julie.
28
:So good to be with you.
29
:It's so weird to hear your story.
30
:Julie: Isn't it?
31
:You're like, you, you almost like
sort of disassociate from it.
32
:And then you realize, oh, that's my story.
33
:Michael: wait, that's me.
34
:Oh, well, yeah.
35
:Julie: Let's talk about that day, that day
that you first talked to your father and
36
:that you learned that you're a half black.
37
:Like, how did your sense
of self change that day?
38
:Cause up until that point,
you thought you were white.
39
:Michael: Yeah, yeah.
40
:So for listeners who can't see us, uh, I,
I pass, I guess, is the phrase that's used
41
:in the black community passing as white.
42
:Um, or am I passing is, I guess,
another question that could be asked.
43
:I mean, what is passing?
44
:Passing in the black community?
45
:Black community is that you have a light
enough skin to pass as a white person.
46
:But am I, what am I, I
guess is a bigger question.
47
:Am I biracial?
48
:What am I, Barack Obama was a biracial
president, but we all call him black.
49
:So, um, the dead day you asked
about that day, uh, it was crazy.
50
:I mean, you know, I didn't know who
my father was for all those years.
51
:Although I grew up with a
very loving father, loving.
52
:family household.
53
:Um, they had divorced and that's
what sort of spurred me to, to
54
:look for my biological father.
55
:And so I was, filled with some grief
of my parents splitting up , and
56
:also some wonder and curiosity and
some anxiety about, you know, looking
57
:for the man who I didn't know and
tracking him down in the first phone
58
:call, which is kind of a miracle.
59
:Um, and then in that first phone call,
him proceeding to tell me And, and,
60
:and in addition to that, if that,
as if that wasn't enough to sort of
61
:change your whole being and thinking
and all of that, he, he also proceeded
62
:to tell me about my family history,
dating all the way back to slavery.
63
:My great great grandfather was a
member of the 54th regiment and the
64
:colored infantry unit in the civil war.
65
:My great grandfather was an all
star pitcher in the Negro Leagues.
66
:He pitched for the St.
67
:Louis Stars.
68
:And my grandfather was a genius in the
science and engineering departments
69
:at Norfolk State University and
HBC is named after my grandfather.
70
:So, so all of that came
in the first phone call.
71
:So you, you know, just, just, just
unpacking all of that, obviously was,
72
:was an enormous task and, uh, and, uh,
subsequently led to many years of therapy.
73
:Julie: Oh, I would imagine.
74
:I mean, number one, everybody should go to
therapy, no matter if you have, if you are
75
:finding out all of these, all these things
about your, your past and your lineage.
76
:Everybody should go to therapy anyways.
77
:Michael: Agreed.
78
:Julie: Um, that sort of explains
to me why you had so much to pour
79
:into this one man show that you did.
80
:I also am a person who was reconnected
to a biological father when I was adult,,
81
:and I think there are certain times
in our life where we just are, I don't
82
:know, we're just wondering who we are
and where we came from and trying to
83
:make sense of why we do the things we do.
84
:Is it nature or nurture?
85
:But I can imagine that was almost
like information overload for you.
86
:There
87
:Michael: Yes.
88
:Yes.
89
:Well, I think you just, you
just nailed it there, though.
90
:I think everybody goes on this journey.
91
:Obviously, you and I, having
searched for a biological parent,
92
:it's a, it's a, it's a much bigger,
shall we say, surprise or whatever.
93
:But everyone's on a journey
of trying to discover who
94
:they are, how they fit in, um,
95
:I mean, these are all things
that we're trying to figure out
96
:like where, where, who are we?
97
:That's the journey of identity.
98
:And I talk about this a lot in
the work that I do is that Um, our
99
:journey of identity is constantly
evolving, constantly changing.
100
:It's not like you get to a place
in your life and you go, that's it.
101
:I know who I am.
102
:I mean, things happen in your life.
103
:Like I don't, you know, simple things,
whether it's you get married and
104
:now you see yourself as a husband
or a wife or you have kids and
105
:suddenly you see yourself as a parent
or your kids have kids and suddenly
106
:you see yourself as a grandparent.
107
:These are more simplistic things,
but these are things that change in
108
:the way that we see our identities.
109
:And so.
110
:To have such a big, jump in my identity
and certainly I would imagine for you
111
:to, to, to discover your biological
father put into place for you a lot of
112
:questions that you had asked yourself.
113
:Julie: you know, it's interesting.
114
:My story is a little bit
different than you are.
115
:I always knew who my biological
father was and I knew his family.
116
:I just didn't have a
relationship with him.
117
:He was a strange, um, and he was a strange
for a lot of different reasons, but make
118
:a long story short, when he got sober,
is when tried to reconnect with me.
119
:And it's funny because when you don't
know who your biological father is or
120
:you don't spend time with them, there
are pieces of your personality where
121
:you wonder where things came from.
122
:And then almost, it's like, it's almost
like you're putting puzzle pieces
123
:together when you meet that other person.
124
:Now you've got it on a
whole different level.
125
:I didn't find out my father was a
different race than I thought I was.
126
:But I think it's also You know, you lived
your first 30 something years of your
127
:life, identifying as a certain race,
and then the next part of your life,
128
:I, you know, having that knowledge that
you are a different, you are a different
129
:race than you thought you were, which
I'm assuming is how, what prepared you
130
:to write the book that you just wrote,
the nobody wants to talk about it.
131
:Michael: Yes.
132
:Julie: I, and I think that we're,
we as a country of immigrants, we're
133
:never not going to talk about race.
134
:We are all different races.
135
:So why do you think it's so difficult
for us to talk about it knowing that
136
:we live in a country of immigrants?
137
:Michael: Wow, you, you've kind of
hit the nail on the head, so as
138
:they, as the cliche goes, I mean.
139
:Um, you know, right now we live in
an era, not just in our country, but
140
:in the world in which immigration
and immigrants are looked down upon.
141
:And so, whether ever it might be, whether
it's their religion, the color of their
142
:skin, what they believe, uh, how they
look, all of these different things play
143
:into how people judge, uh, immigrants.
144
:The question of race and having
conversation about race is a, is, is
145
:fraught., on multiple levels, for many
reasons, uh, look, we, when, when we're
146
:asked to have a conversation about
race, in mixed company, it can be very
147
:awkward and uncomfortable, primarily
because as, as white people, and I'm
148
:both, so it's complicated, but, but,
but also because as white people.
149
:We come to the table with
apprehensions, with cautions.
150
:We're cautious about talking about
Christ because we don't want to
151
:say anything that might sound
racist or offensive or whatever.
152
:Also, we probably haven't had that
conversation in our immediate families
153
:while we were growing up because it wasn't
necessary to have that conversation.
154
:So I think for me, especially as a
white man, well white, I'm biracial
155
:now, as growing up as a white person.
156
:Um, like race wasn't something that we had
a lot of conversation about in my family.
157
:And so now I was interjecting
that conversation into my family.
158
:So there was a little bit of hesitation in
how we go about having that conversation.
159
:On the other side of the issue,
we have people of color who, are
160
:constantly having the conversation
about race, but are ready to pounce
161
:on anyone or anybody that sound says
something that sounds remotely racist.
162
:And so we're polarized and we
don't have the conversation.
163
:And what I'm suggesting to all of
us is Yes, it's going to be messy,
164
:but we need to have that dialogue.
165
:We need to get comfortable
being uncomfortable.
166
:Julie: In your, in your book, you
say that there are seven tools to
167
:start having these conversations.
168
:Can we break those down
a little bit so that,
169
:Michael: yes, absolutely.
170
:I just said one right there.
171
:It's get comfortable being uncomfortable.
172
:That is, uh, in the, in the
book, it's tool number five.
173
:But the first tool is,
um, is tell your story.
174
:Um, and this is so beautiful
because you just did that with me.
175
:You just told me a little bit about
your story and we found a commonality.
176
:We have more in common
than we have difference.
177
:So the first tool is tell your story.
178
:That's where we find our commonalities.
179
:The second tool is don't
judge the differences.
180
:Flip the script.
181
:Instead of allowing the differences to
create a wall between us, find a mutual
182
:interest and then embrace the differences.
183
:After all, if we were all
the same, We'd be bored.
184
:We'd be bored.
185
:We all love that.
186
:Look, I think you have
fantastic glasses on listeners.
187
:Trust me.
188
:She's got fantastic glasses.
189
:But you went out and found those
glasses because you love the way they
190
:looked and the uniqueness of them so
that you could be your unique self.
191
:The same with me.
192
:I like unique glasses.
193
:I want to be my unique self.
194
:We each have these individual aspects
about us that want to be unique, and
195
:yet we also want to fit in as a whole.
196
:So what I'm suggesting is Uh, it's a, it's
a, it's a theory called intergroup contact
197
:theory, and that's the proven theory
that by sharing our personal stories
198
:across majority and minority populations,
we can break down the prejudices that
199
:exist between us by discovering we have
more in common than we have different.
200
:That's a fact.
201
:Julie: mhm,
202
:Michael: So those are the first two tools.
203
:The second tool is that we need to
recognize that there isn't one way.
204
:To have a conversation
about race and identity.
205
:I, if there was one way to
do it, we'd all be doing it.
206
:That would make it a lot easier, right?
207
:But, but we all come to the table with
a different experience of race and
208
:identity, and that's why it's so messy.
209
:There isn't just one way to do it.
210
:Um, number four, and this is so important
in today's society, we can disagree
211
:so long as we're not disagreeable.
212
:Julie: Mm hmm.
213
:Michael: Once we are disagreeable,
the conversation stops.
214
:Let's just agree that we
don't agree on this particular
215
:issue, or whatever it might be.
216
:But when you become disagreeable, you
stop the conversation from moving forward.
217
:And so, um, that's something.
218
:Take responsibilities.
219
:Freedom of speech
carries responsibilities.
220
:We need to accept the
responsibilities of that.
221
:Number five, as I mentioned, is get
comfortable being uncomfortable.
222
:Number six is.
223
:Understand there are realities
outside of our own experiences.
224
:Just because we haven't, um, maybe we
haven't experienced racism or sexism
225
:or homophobia or age discrimination or
disability indifference doesn't mean that
226
:those are not realities for other people.
227
:And so we need to accept that.
228
:And number seven is, um, and
this is a very, uh, Difficult
229
:and also very deep thing.
230
:It's, um, we need to practice forgiveness.
231
:Um, it is, uh, often been described
as the hardest work you will ever
232
:do, but also the most rewarding.
233
:Julie: I don't think
I am good at that one.
234
:And any part of my life, I gotta tell
ya, Michael, I literally, I'm, everybody
235
:who listens to this knows I'm like a
big fan of true crime and whatever.
236
:And even this morning, I, oh, I, The news
program, Good Morning America, was running
237
:a little thing, on the Murdaugh, case.
238
:And this particular one was
the fraud and money laundering
239
:Michael: Yes.
240
:Yes.
241
:Julie: And there were people in, in,
that he had stolen millions of dollars
242
:from, In these lawsuits that they had
gotten insurance money and then he
243
:had stolen the insurance money and one
woman Said, you know, I forgive you
244
:and I was like that those words are
not the words that would come out of
245
:my mouth And I think it is a huge flaw.
246
:It is a character flaw of mine, but I
247
:Michael: Well,
248
:Julie: is tough for me
249
:Michael: well, let me, let me just
say, just because you forgive someone
250
:doesn't mean you condone their behavior.
251
:Julie: Yeah
252
:Michael: can forgive someone and not
condone their behavior and still think
253
:what they did was evil or wrong or
whatever you want to describe it as.
254
:But I will say this, if you continue
to hold on to that resentment, that
255
:resentment will always be there.
256
:It will weigh on you.
257
:And by allowing yourself to let
that go, you are freeing yourself.
258
:And so I'm not suggesting that I'm
perfect at this at all, but I'm
259
:suggesting that this is something
that we could all take a look to as a
260
:means to help, uh, lessen some of the
anger that's in our atmosphere today.
261
:Julie: Yeah.
262
:I mean it seems like those seven
steps are, or tools not steps because
263
:you don't have to do them in that
264
:Michael: No, you don't.
265
:No.
266
:Julie: There are two of us.
267
:I mean, and I think any of them
alone would be helpful, but
268
:obviously together they change, um,
relationships and conversations.
269
:You know, as we sit here today having
this conversation, we're in the middle
270
:of a ceasefire in, in the Gaza Strip for
the, transfer of hostages and prisoners.
271
:And I just wonder, like,
sometimes you look and...
272
:And have we entered a time in which
there's just too much hatred for things
273
:to get better or to be different?
274
:Like, I'd love to know
your thoughts on that.
275
:Michael: Well, I'm glad you asked that.
276
:Um, I would say, I'm laughing
when I'm saying this.
277
:I would say I have a little bit more of a
pessimistic view about it, but that being
278
:said, that being said, I mean, there is a
lot of, uh, strife, let's call it whatever
279
:war strife, whatever in the world today.
280
:And I, I can only speak, um, I guess
directly about what's happening
281
:in my own sphere, in my own.
282
:World, meaning in the United States.
283
:I don't live in Israel.
284
:I don't live in Ukraine.
285
:I live here and I deal with people here
and I'm distraught as, as perhaps you
286
:are at what is happening in our country.
287
:Um, our politics are poisoned.
288
:Our, our, our, our people are
poisoned and angry with one another.
289
:And all I can say is that if we don't
make some concerted efforts to either use
290
:these tools or find ways in which we can
speak with one another in a civil manner
291
:and not allow our anger to overtake us.
292
:We're, we're doomed.
293
:We've got to do this.
294
:This is the only way.
295
:There's no magic pill that's
going to get us out of this.
296
:There's no, you know, can't wave a wand
and say, okay, we're, it's all okay.
297
:We are the ones who have to do this.
298
:And that is why I am so committed to doing
this work, traveling around the country,
299
:speaking with, you know, Corporations and
government agencies and military bases
300
:and high schools and colleges and trying
to get them to understand that we may
301
:have differences in ideology, differences
in skin color, differences in gender,
302
:differences in the way that we see the
world, but we actually have more in common
303
:than we have different, and we need to
find those commonalities and embrace them.
304
:Julie: Yeah.
305
:I'd love to know your thoughts.
306
:I did a podcast a few months ago
on how corporate DEI statements are
307
:actually a turnoff to most candidates
308
:Michael: Yes.
309
:Julie: because there's
no substance behind it.
310
:There's no reason behind it.
311
:It's more like, Oh, we have
to have a DEI statement.
312
:So we'll craft a DEI statement.
313
:Um, I'd love to know how you work
with companies, organizations, to
314
:have it be something that is part of
the fabric of their company and not
315
:something that they think that they
have to do and not really dig deep into
316
:it to make it part of their culture.
317
:Michael: Uh, boy, how do I answer this?
318
:First of all, I guess I would
say there is currently right
319
:now a lot of pushback on that.
320
:As you mentioned, there's a
lot of pushback on DE& I and
321
:DE& I statements in general.
322
:And although I am, uh, I guess what I
do is sort of branded in that space,
323
:my message is so much bigger than that.
324
:And so I've been trying to utilize,
different, I don't know, words
325
:or phrasing to sort of get at
what it is that I'm trying to...
326
:My message, what...
327
:synthesize what my message is.
328
:And my message is about authenticity,
belonging, and community.
329
:If I were to think about that
to me, it is the essence of what
330
:I'm trying to get at and every
company, every community needs that
331
:Julie: hmm.
332
:Mm hmm.
333
:Michael: So, I also realized
that, a lot of people haven't
334
:reframed what things are.
335
:And so they're still calling it
this., And I'm speaking of D.
336
:E.
337
:and I in particular diversity,
equity, inclusion and belonging.
338
:Sometimes it's called that.
339
:It's a bigger picture or whatever.
340
:I guess I would say, I think
it's important for us to
341
:remember that we need to be more.
342
:I'm just going to use the I
word, inclusive, because it
343
:brings us, greater outcomes.
344
:Every study, every test, every poll,
everything that you look at shows that
345
:the wider variety of people that you bring
in and embrace, The greater the outcomes,
346
:whether it's in an educational institution
or it's in a business, the more that you
347
:can bring a wide variety of people into
the fold, I guess is the way to put it,
348
:the greater the outcomes you will have.
349
:You're not going to leave, and you
know, to leave it, um, just to say
350
:the crassness of it, you're not going
to leave any money on the table.
351
:You're going to be able to bring
in a lot of different people who
352
:are going to embrace your message,
your service, your product.
353
:Julie: Yeah.
354
:And I think a lot of, on a very human
level, I think a lot of our fear of
355
:other people, I don't know another
better, better word for that, fear
356
:of other people is just not knowing
where they come from, not having an
357
:understanding of their culture, of how
things are different, of how things that
358
:are normal in the way I grew up are not
normal in the way other people grow up.
359
:And there's.
360
:Like you said, there's no one
right way to have a conversation.
361
:Well, there's, there's things that are
different that are innately different.
362
:And the reason we don't understand
them is because we haven't
363
:taken the time to discover them.
364
:Michael: Absolutely.
365
:Tool.
366
:Tool number one.
367
:Tell your story.
368
:Tell your story.
369
:Again, there are, you're going to find,
you're going to discover a rich array
370
:of commonalities, but you're also going
to hear some differences and you're
371
:going to go, Oh, that's interesting.
372
:I want to know more about that.
373
:You know, I once heard a CEO of
a huge multinational corporation.
374
:Um, I used to, uh, They
used to have amazing.
375
:They used to have a diversity conference
every year, and they would invite about
376
:1000 of their employees from sites
all across the world, and they would
377
:gather together for three days, and
they would have an intensive diversity
378
:training experience, and the CEO would
open up the conference and speak,
379
:and he would talk about, you know,
the state of affairs that are today.
380
:At our corporation and
talk all about this stuff.
381
:And then he would open up the room to
accept questions from people in the room.
382
:So people got to ask their CEO a question,
which, you know, who gets to do that?
383
:Rarely do that.
384
:So, but he said, before you ask your
question, I have a couple of, uh,
385
:of things I need to know from you.
386
:First, I want you to tell me
the site that you work at.
387
:And second, I want you
to tell me two hobbies.
388
:Tell me two of your hobbies.
389
:And I thought that was a brilliant way to
open the door, like, because your hobbies
390
:are things that we are passionate about.
391
:And so you're describing something
that you are very passionate about that
392
:really means something dear to you.
393
:And not only is that interesting, but then
you may also have a commonality with that.
394
:So the CEO didn't always have a similar
hobby as people did, but once in a
395
:while they overlapped and certainly
things like I think one person
396
:said once, that he was a beekeeper
and I was like, wow, that is fast.
397
:Like, like I want to know,
but you're a beekeeper.
398
:Julie: Mm
399
:Michael: I want to know all about that.
400
:That's like a fascinating hobby, you know?
401
:And so, so it's a way I thought
it was a brilliant way to open
402
:the door for people to connect.
403
:Julie: It's so interesting that you
say that because,, last week I gave a
404
:keynote, a virtual keynote in Africa to
a woman's group in Africa and I had been
405
:connected by a mutual connection who said,
I, you know, I'd like virtually to speak
406
:to this group in Africa on networking.
407
:She's amazing.
408
:You know, blah, blah, blah.
409
:And they reached out to me
and asked me if I would do it.
410
:And I almost turned it down because.
411
:I was so self conscious about being A
white woman growing up in the United
412
:States with all of the privilege that that
has being white in the United States and
413
:lecturing to a hundred,, African women.
414
:And I reached, when they reached
out to me, I wrote back and I
415
:said, I'd be delighted to however.
416
:I'm not sure that I'm the right person
for you because all of my experiences
417
:come from this narrow experience.
418
:Yes, I worked in male dominated
industry, but I have all of the white
419
:privilege and I work in America.
420
:So, and they wrote back and they
were like, yeah, that's no big deal.
421
:And I was, I was making
it more than it was.
422
:Um, and At the end of my presentation,
you know, I, similar to what you
423
:do, I, what that CEO did, I have
a commonality exercise where we
424
:find what we have in common and.
425
:I mentioned already that
I'm very into true crime.
426
:Most of the women there were into true
crime and wanted to talk to me about that.
427
:And then I mentioned I'm a
dog mom and they had dogs.
428
:And it was just like, I was only looking
at the fact that I was white and they
429
:were black, and I wasn't looking at all
of the things we had in common, which
430
:is your number one, tell your story
and find the commonality, but I almost
431
:turned down that engagement because I was
so, uh, I was uncomfortable and afraid.
432
:Michael: Yeah, well, number two
is don't judge the differences.
433
:You were self judging your difference
between this group of women and yet,
434
:and yet you discovered you had so much
more in common than you had different.
435
:That's just
436
:Julie: Yeah, I mean, and
they asked me to come back.
437
:They were like, can you
come in person next time?
438
:I was like, yes, I will.
439
:I mean, I've been to South Africa.
440
:I love the African continent.
441
:Um, so I was like, yeah, and
I, I just, I can't believe I
442
:almost let it hold me back.
443
:And then if, if someone like me who is
very comfortable in my expertise and
444
:very comfortable being an orator, almost
gave up that opportunity because of fear.
445
:I can't imagine how prevalent it is in
people who are, you know, just starting to
446
:test the boundaries of making connections,
which is something I'm an expert at.
447
:So.
448
:Michael: Yeah, indeed.
449
:Indeed.
450
:I would agree.
451
:It's, uh, it gets in our way.
452
:Julie: Yeah.
453
:How do you, you're one man.
454
:story, your autobiographical one man play.
455
:I'm sure some people have come up to
you afterwards with their own stories of
456
:finding their identity or maybe something
similar to you, um, not understanding
457
:their, their lineage or their past.
458
:Do any stories do you, that you
remember that stick out to you?
459
:Michael: Oh my gosh, Julie, so
many, uh, I mean, seriously, so many
460
:people come up to me afterwards.
461
:Well, it is the theory that I use
again, and I didn't discover this
462
:theory until I was well into the
journey of performing the play.
463
:I read about it somewhere, I don't
know, in an article or something,
464
:and I was like, Oh my gosh,
that's exactly what I'm doing.
465
:I'm talking about...
466
:Intergroup contact theory.
467
:So I'm telling my story.
468
:I'm up there.
469
:Of course, I'm telling it perhaps in
a different way than most people would
470
:tell it in the form of a one man play
where I play over a dozen characters
471
:over the course of 45 minutes.
472
:But everybody has a story, their own
personal story, and people come up
473
:to me afterwards and tell me theirs.
474
:And it could be, I mean, I've had
people who have had similar stories.
475
:One, I was, I was at a business college
outside of Philadelphia and I was
476
:backstage getting ready to do this show.
477
:Um, and the audience, it was, you know,
huge theater and the place was packed.
478
:You could hear all the rumbling
out in the audience and, you know,
479
:you're backstage by yourself.
480
:I don't know about you, but it's such a
weird feeling to be by yourself, right?
481
:It's so lonely back there and,
and I get a little nervous.
482
:I get nervous when I do this show and.
483
:And suddenly I'm sort of, you know,
breathing and sort of just getting into my
484
:routine, getting ready to go out on stage.
485
:And this guy comes charging
backstage and he says, hi, my name
486
:is, I don't remember his name.
487
:My name is Jim.
488
:And I got to tell you, I
just met my biological father
489
:this week and he's black.
490
:And I didn't know it.
491
:And there's a white guy.
492
:It's like telling me this story.
493
:He goes, I couldn't wait
to come and hear this.
494
:And I was like, Oh, that's so nice of you.
495
:You could have waited until after
the show, but that is really nice.
496
:Felt so, so never to come
backstage before I started.
497
:So, uh, you know, and then we
talked after I did the show and
498
:he told me more about his story.
499
:It was incredible.
500
:I've had, um, trans individuals
come up to me afterwards.
501
:In tears, just talking about being
able to share their stories in
502
:the way that I've shared mine,
and it's just been so gratifying.
503
:I mean, again, we all go on this journey
of identity, trying to figure out where
504
:we fit in and how we fit in and trans
people are no different than others.
505
:They're going through a journey
in terms of trying to figure
506
:out who they are, what they are.
507
:And so I've had just so many people.
508
:I'll tell you one.
509
:One more specific story.
510
:And this was at the very beginning
of the journey I was doing the show.
511
:In theaters at the time.
512
:I still had not wrapped my head around.
513
:I wasn't even familiar with the D.
514
:E.
515
:and I space.
516
:I was an actor.
517
:I had written a play.
518
:I was performing it in a theater.
519
:I was in the I was at the Kansas
City Repertory Theater, a big
520
:regional theater in Kansas City.
521
:It was a big honor to be there.
522
:800 seat theater.
523
:I opened their season in 2002.
524
:It was a huge moment for me
as an actor, as a writer.
525
:It And, um, one night after the show,
the stage manager came backstage
526
:and said, you know, there's a couple
waiting for you in the green room.
527
:They, they want to meet you.
528
:Would that be okay?
529
:And I said, well, do
you know who they are?
530
:And she goes, no, I don't.
531
:And I'm like, Okay.
532
:I don't know anybody in Kansas
City, so I wasn't expecting anybody.
533
:So I go into the green room,
and there's this lovely couple.
534
:They're all dressed, you
know, in nice clothing for an
535
:evening out at the theater.
536
:Um, husband and wife.
537
:, and the wife comes up to me and says,
you know, we just really wanted to
538
:thank you so deeply for you sharing
your story, for you performing it.
539
:It just really moved us so much.
540
:I can't even put it into words.
541
:And my husband wanted to talk to you.
542
:And so I turned to look at him and there
are tears in his eyes and now streaming
543
:down his face and I'm getting choked
up just telling the story and he sort
544
:of begins to speak to me, but he can't
get the words out instead of words
545
:coming out, tears are coming out and
I'm looking at him and I know who he is.
546
:He is a biracial man and he
just heard his story on stage.
547
:It's the first time he's ever heard his
story and he can't say he he's, he's
548
:so filled with, with love and feeling.
549
:He can't even express it.
550
:And his wife sort of butts in because she
realizes this is an uncomfortable moment.
551
:She goes, he's just so
deeply moved by her story.
552
:He just really wanted to tell you.
553
:And I just turned back to him.
554
:He still could not tell me.
555
:And I just, Embraced him in a big hug
and I said, thank you so much for being
556
:here and for coming backstage and,
and meeting me and he then choked out.
557
:Thank you so much for telling your story.
558
:It is so deeply close to mine.
559
:Julie: Right.
560
:And I think that is, the power on that
is a lot of us, we self, um, censor.
561
:Because we're not sure that anybody cares.
562
:You know, why would anybody care?
563
:And you, what I've learned in telling
stories now on stages for the past eight
564
:years is, You don't know how many people
you're going to affect and help until
565
:you start talking and telling your story.
566
:And then you will be amazed by
the number of people who connect
567
:with you or relate to you or are
emboldened or because of you.
568
:So telling your story is the,
like you said, it's number one.
569
:Michael: Yes, number one, it's
just, we, our whole society,
570
:our whole, the storytelling was
the first form of communication.
571
:From cave person days, they told stories
and pictures on walls, and we do that
572
:today in so many different ways, whether
it's in a book or a movie or a play
573
:or a speech or, uh, just connecting
with, another person, uh, face to face.
574
:Julie: Yeah.
575
:Michael, thank you so much for being
here and having this conversation for
576
:sharing your story, which I'm sure
was hard to do while you were still
577
:going through it and processing it.
578
:You know, one of the things they say
about being professional speakers,
579
:you can't tell the story until
you've gone through it and you,
580
:and you're, and you're over it.
581
:But what you have gone through is not
something you're ever going to be over.
582
:It's still always going to be
a part of your identity, who
583
:you were and who you are now.
584
:Um, I think it's very brave.
585
:Michael: Thank you so much.
586
:It's just a delight to be with
you and to um, have this back and
587
:forth and to discover a little bit
about you and to find commonality.
588
:It's, it's just delightful.
589
:Julie: Well, thank you for being here.
590
:Michael: Thanks.
591
:I recorded this conversation.
592
:About an hour after I recorded
my conversation with henna prior.
593
:And it could not have been better
times because Like Michael said.
594
:In order to have these
conversations, we need to get
595
:comfortable being uncomfortable.
596
:So we might be awkward.
597
:As we begin to navigate these
conversations, as we begin to learn,
598
:to share our stories and become curious
and ask about the stories of others.
599
:And remember there's no one
way to have a conversation.
600
:The most important thing
is that we are having the
601
:conversation in the first place.
602
:I hope the seven tips that Michael shared
will help ease you into discovering
603
:new ways to connect with people.
604
:Of all different backgrounds.
605
:Now.
606
:Onto the drink of the week,
which is the black and white
607
:cocktail from the food network.
608
:Here's what you're going to need.
609
:Two ounces of heavy cream.
610
:One ounce of vanilla flavored vodka, one
and a half ounces of chocolate, a core
611
:and a chocolate swizzle stick for garnish,
which you're going to do is you're going
612
:to fill a cocktail shaker with ice.
613
:Add the cream and vodka cover and
shake vigorously shake, shake, shake.
614
:About 30 seconds.
615
:Straight into a chilled cocktail glass
and then slowly pour the chocolate
616
:liquor into the center of the drink to
make a layered black and white cocktail.
617
:Then you would lay that chocolate
swizzle stick across the top
618
:of the glass and then serve it.
619
:But before you drink it, Sir,
the layers together with this.
620
:Swizzle stick.
621
:Otherwise it's, shouldn't be like.
622
:Layers of like, Alcohol
and it's not good days.
623
:Good.
624
:All right friends.
625
:That's it.
626
:That was very eloquently.
627
:Put awkward.
628
:All right, friends.
629
:That's all for this week.
630
:If you like what you heard
today, please leave a review
631
:and subscribe to the podcast.
632
:Please remember to share this podcast
to help it reach a larger audience.
633
:If you want more, Julie
Brown, you find my book.
634
:This shit works on Amazon
and Barnes and noble.
635
:You can find me on
LinkedIn at Julie Brown BD.
636
:Just let me know where you found me
when you reach out I'm Julie Brown
637
:underscore BD on the Instagram, or you
can just pop on over to my website,
638
:Julie Brown, bd.com until next week.
639
:Cheers.
