Sharon Huddleston and Dr Ian Greenwood share the heartbreaking stories behind their campaigns for safer roads.

They discuss graduated driving licensing, why inexperience rather than deliberate law-breaking can place young drivers and their passengers at risk, and the continued reluctance of successive governments to act despite decades of evidence.

The conversation also explores the wider impact of road death, the importance of language, the support provided by Forget Me Not Families Uniting, and how campaigning has helped Sharon and Ian keep their daughters’ memories alive.

Crucially, they consider the role driving instructors can play right now, helping young drivers and their families understand risks involving passengers, night-time driving, rural roads and the difficult first months after passing.

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The Instructor Podcast with Terry Cook talking with leaders, innovators, experts and game changers about what drives them.

Welcome to the Instructor Podcast.

This is a show that helps you become an even more awesome driving instructor and run a better driving school.

As always, I am your splendid host, Terry Cook.

I'm delighted to be here, but even more delighted that you have chosen to listen, because today we are joined by Sharon Huddleston and Dr. Ian Greenwood.

And I've delighted to welcome these guys back to the podcast as they talk about their campaigns for safer roads, as well as sharing their own personal stories behind the reasons why, and of course, even share their thoughts on driving instructors as well.

But just before we get stuck into today's episode, I want to ask you a little favor.

Click, subscribe or Follow wherever you're listening, whether that's on Apple or Spotify or even on YouTube.

Go and click subscribe or Follow.

Firstly, you'll get all these episodes into your feed as soon as you drop them, but secondly actually helps the discovery of the podcast as well.

So do me a favor, go and click subscribe or follow.

And if you're not already, definitely make sure you follow us on YouTube because I've got some treats coming up for you in August.

But for now, let's get stuck into the show.

So today I'm delighted to welcome back two former guests of the Interrupted Podcast.

How are we doing, Sharon?

I'm all right, thank you, Terry.

Thank you for inviting me to speak again.

I'm delighted to have you along.

How are we doing, Ian?

Morning, Terry.

All good, thanks.

Thanks for inviting me too.

Hi, Sharon.

Hello, Ian.

Excellent.

Well, I must also give another little shout out to Lee Jowett, who reached out to me and said that he had an idea for the podcast which was to get you to on.

And I excitedly said, yes, let's do that.

And after much meandering for me, we finally arranged it.

So I'm looking forward to speaking with you because I kind of alluded to beforehand that there's a lot of instructors I know personally.

I've been impacted by not just your stories, but by the campaigning that you do as well.

And I know have adapted and changed and completely, completely rehashed the way they teach in some instances.

A lot of new people listen.

So I do think it's worth sort of looking at the.

Your stories and what you're doing now.

So I think I'm going to start with you first, Sharon.

Do you want to just tell us a little bit about sort of what.

What you're campaigning for and the reason behind that?

Yeah, so my campaigning is for graduated driving licensing.

It was Caitlin's friend that was driving and sadly, she was killed too.

That evening.

The girls were going for an evening meal to a restaurant.

And we live in a very rural area.

And approximately 15 minutes after the girls set off on the journey, there was a horrific collision that happened.

The newly qualified driver had lost control on a wet bend in the rural road and the car spun onto the opposite carriageway directly in front of and kind of into a van that was traveling in the opposite direction.

Caitlin was killed on impact, as it was a side impact into the front passenger door where Caitlin was sitting.

And the back seat passenger, she was seriously injured and the van driver was seriously injured as well.

So four families were impacted that evening.

Two families bereaved and two others having to live with lifelong injuries.

And the girls were all 18.

And not long after, I wasn't getting any answers about the crash or anything, and I wasn't coping naturally, wasn't coping with the death of our daughter.

And so I reached out to break the road safety charity, as I'd been handed a folder when we'd gone to identify Caitlin the day after she was killed.

And at the time I was handed this folder, I did kind of think, what's that going to do?

I've just lost my daughter, horrifically.

But now, thank goodness, I did reach out to Bray because they have been an absolute lifesaver to me, going through this horrific grief of losing a child in a road traffic collision.

And through them, I found out about graduated driving licensing, which is a law in other countries that helps to save many lives on roads.

And then finding out that realization that it could have saved Caitlin's life was just such a shock to me that I thought, I've got to do something about this.

And at the inquest, we found out that we could ask the coroner for a Project Preventing Future Deaths report.

And so we did do.

And thankfully, the coroner agreed to write a Preventing Future Deaths report.

He fully supported what I was asking for, which.

Which Was that newly qualified drivers, teenage drivers, don't carry their friends as passengers for a limited amount of time until they've gained more experience and driving solo or with an older experienced driver first.

And this hit all the media and the national headlines kind of thing because it was the first time a preventing Future deaths report had been written recommending to the Department for Transport that a graduated driving license should be implemented in the uk.

Well, nationwide is what the coroner said to help save lives on our roads.

And then with getting the media attention about that, it was kind of like, oh my God kind of thing, because we're just an ordinary family, you know, that this horrific thing had happened to.

So I eventually agreed to speak with media, the BBC got involved and from then on it's just roller coaster kind of thing into full time campaigning.

For me, that's my way of, of coping with my grief, of coping with the loss of Caitlin, in that I feel that I'm still doing something for her rather than just visiting her in a churchyard.

Now I'm still.

It's like as though she's still with me when I, when I'm doing my campaigning.

To.

To be given the opportunities to speak about Caitlin means a lot to me.

And actually her anniversary has fallen just this week, the 14th of July is the anniversary.

And people are so kind, the people that have reached out to me.

And one really, really special thing that has happened this week is that my daughter, my eldest daughter Hannah, her neighbor, lost their husband recently, very suddenly actually, to cancer.

And his funeral was last Friday.

And of course the town that we live in know exactly what happened with Caitlin and her friends, you know, and they know about the crash because it was, it was such a horrific thing that had happened in such a small place that we live in.

She knocked on Hannah's door a few days ago when it was Caitlin's anniversary and they had asked people at the funeral to donate to two charities.

One was Andy's Man Club and the other was Rick, the road safety charity.

And so they brought some money round that had been raised at the funeral of Hannah's neighbor.

And that just meant so much to us to bring that to us on that day when it's such a difficult day.

I just thought it was a beautiful gesture from somebody that is going through their own grief at the moment to think about Caitlin and bring that money for that.

The road safety charity that everybody in the town knows, that has helped me because I speak about break so highly all the time whenever I speak.

For them to do that on that day meant the world to us.

And Rek is so pleased about it as well.

This donation that's been given, so that's the background to my campaigning.

It's in memory of my daughter Caitlin.

And through her name I hopefully can stop other people going through this.

What a beautiful story, Sharon.

Oh, thank you.

The events of this week, it just demonstrates just how, just how many thousands and thousands of thousands of people are impacted by road crashes and in your little town in Cumbria.

And that beautiful gesture just kind of illustrates that, doesn't it?

Yeah, it does.

I mean it's affected so many people.

You know, Caitlyn's friends, you know, my, my sister in law had gone to the churchyard to put her flowers with Caitlin the other day and she found one of Caitlin's friends crying there, you know, and, and it's, it's nine years since Caitlin was killed, but time makes no difference.

In fact it makes it worse because it's longer since you've seen them and it's all that wondering what, what they will be doing now and, and everything like that and, and, and that really upset me as well to hear that one of her friends was upset at the churchyard, you know, having a little cry with Caitlin.

So yeah, people are just so lovely.

There's some lovely people in the world.

It's a lovely story and I really appreciate you sharing that because I think we live in a time now where there seems to be a lot of negativity around, you know, around a lot of different things.

So take almost a positive little story there.

I like that.

And one thing I will share actually is that I know that the episode I did with you, that was the episode that got a lot of instructors thinking about graduate driving licensing differently, including me.

I think I used to look at it as a very political thing.

I didn't really see the personal side behind it.

And it was, it was speaking to Ushrine that made me realise that.

And I know that myself and other instructors, some of us at least, have taken it upon ourselves that, okay, there may not be graduated driving license in the uk, but that doesn't mean that we can apply a form of GDL with our pupils or discuss it with our pupils and talk about it with the parents.

So I know that there's a growing number of instructors now that while we can't enforce it, we can kind of talk to the pupils and say, okay, this passengers in your car, you know, nighttime driving, have that discussion and share with parents.

So I think your, your episode did influence some, some instructors And I appreciate you sharing that.

Thank you, thank you.

And I want to ask the same to you Ian, just kind of your campaign and sort of story and reasons behind it.

So I have two daughters, Alice and Clara.

Clara's well into her 20s and living life the full and Alice is forever 12.

Basically young people made a mistake.

So there were My family's car wasn't with them.

My family was driving home from Towers with my ex wife and my two daughters and coming in the opposite direction were five young and new drivers with all of whom had passengers in their car.

Cars in the second car they were racing so they were doing about 80 miles an hour the police said and they basically the second power in the, in the race convoy if you like, missed the bend and those two young people car hit my family's car.

They both died.

He was 18, had been driving for a month.

The 16 year old passenger were both killed and Alice was also killed.

They broke.

One of the things that I always talk about when I share the story is the fact the circumstances of the crash so Sharon's talked about a graduated driving licensing system and what it can do to help save lives.

So all the different factors that are mitigated in the GDL were present in the crash that killed Alice.

So it was a rural road, it was newly qualified drivers, it was distraction because of passenger involvement.

They were all on their phones texting each other.

We know that because of the crash investigation afterwards, the circumstances of the crash, the environment, it was wet, it was dark.

So the list is quite extensive in terms of those factors that were present in the crash that killed my daughter.

But they are also the things that are mitigated through a graduate driving licensing.

The other thing that we don't talk about enough I think is what happens next and it's not just me and my family or Sharon and her family, it's everybody else that is involved with these.

And we talk a lot about other survivors, people with serious injuries.

We talk about the victims around the crash and consequences to families and communities.

And Sharon's beautifully illustrated that with what happened this week.

But we talk about that quite a lot.

What we don't tend to talk about a lot, which I just wanted to mention is all the other people who are involved so I.

One of the things I do try and talk about is the poor souls who pitch up to the crash scene, the ambulance service, the fire and rescue service, the police who turn up at the crash site and see things that they shouldn't expect to see.

And I know from talking to probably hundreds of people now just how big an impact that has on their mental health and their ability to carry on doing their living, their lives, really.

And I was talking to one recently who had retired because of PTSD as just one example of many, because of an accumulation of seeing things that we ask our professional services to see.

So that I think is something that we do need to talk about more in terms of the consequences.

Yes, we talk about victims, not enough, I think, yes, we talk about people like me and Sharon and we do our bit to try and to illustrate just how preventable these crashes are and avoid the consequences that Sharon shared, I've just shared.

But we don't get the message across sufficiently to get government to take action.

So my journey post recovery post, I went back to work, I had a mortgage to pay, I had a career, I had an ex wife and a daughter in intensive care units.

So all that period, Clara came home, her mum didn't for quite a long time.

So I was a single parent for a little while.

So the first period for me was just practicality of living life, a mortgage and sorting my own head out and deciding how, how do you recover from something like that?

I've still not answered that, by the way.

And then life just carried on.

So I had a career.

I didn't start doing campaigning as Sharon did initially.

I just went back to a very changed but normal life.

The thing that kind of spurred me on was obviously Alice, but also the why question.

Why.

Why do we not think about road death and injury seriously enough?

29,910 People were killed or seriously injured last year.

The approach that we take isn't proportionate to that 29,000, 910 people.

And I have asked the question why for a long time and I guess my campaigning has been different.

So I started with, well, why don't we do that?

My kind of drive was to try and answer the why question.

So I initially decided to, to do a politics degree and to see whether my brain was still working to see whether I could answer the why question.

So I, my, my background's in the health service, so I'm educated and experienced in the health service.

But politics was something new.

So I did that and I was, I met an amazing professor from Leeds said to me, she said to me, you, you need to do a PhD, Ian.

And I went w. Daft.

My age, I'm too old, I'm not, I'm not clever enough.

Anyway, fast forward.

I ended up doing a Ph.D. and she ended up being my, one of my two supervisors.

And I wanted to ask the question why, why do we not respond appropriately to road death, injury.

Even the amount of crashes that happen on our roads are there every single day, many, many, many, many times.

So I did a PhD.

Lots of my family said I was completely mad.

They copy me, right?

But I got a PhD trying to understand why.

And I guess that's when I started campaigning because after the PhD you have to be politically neutral and objective and scientific.

So although I had campaigned in West Yorkshire, where I live, prior to that, I made a fundamental mistake by trusting politicians by asking them to do things in private.

And I learned that which I guess at my age was maybe a little bit naive, but I just hoped that people would go, oh yes, West Yorkshire needs to do something differently with road safety and let's do something.

But they didn't.

So afterwards I changed tax.

So I went public.

And the reason I guess I did all of that was I didn't want my story that much in the public domain.

And I think we asked people like me and Sharon, we, we society, politicians ask society, I ask of society to listen to people like me and Sharon to share something that's really very private.

And I will do that willingly because I want change and I know Sharon does the same.

We shouldn't have to do that.

People should already understand the impact of what happens to these devastating, traumatic instant crashes that devastate lives.

We, we still do what we do and we, we do it willingly, I think.

But certainly from my point of view, I didn't want, I didn't want to be in the space.

I'm a very private person.

But it, it happened in terms of when you start speaking, people start listening.

And that, that is something that is really helpful.

It's helpful then from a mental health point of view because Alice has lost life, hopefully wasn't wasted.

She should be in her 30s now.

Let's knows what she will be doing.

But it partly helps me and my family to know that people still talk about her, our family and friends still talk about her, but actually using her traumatic death to make a difference to other people.

And similarly to Sharon, we don't want this to happen to anybody else.

And so my, so my campaigning focus on, focuses on those factors that were important or affected by the crash that killed Ali.

So I focus on children, I focus on rural roads, I focus on those factors that contribute to the deaths in that set of circumstances.

But obviously importantly, graduated driving licensing.

And so I fell into graduated driving licensing and campaigning, probably more by accident.

Sharon's described a deliberate set of steps that she thought mine.

Mine was different.

It was more by just talking about the crash that killed Alice and the factors that contributed to it.

Graduated driving license, because it is political and in some spheres, controversial.

That's the area that I guess people know me for.

They know me less for the other things that I do.

It was specifically on young and novice drivers back then.

But that's essentially where things started and that's where we kind of got together and decided that we would campaign in.

In a different way, rather than all of us getting on a train and going to see a minister on our own, which we all did.

And we all nodded and sagely until put their head to one side and told us how sympathetic you were.

And then we all came home again and nothing happened.

So we decided we'd do our campaigning together and I'm sure we'll explore that today.

I think one thing I will say is I sometimes struggle to articulate my thoughts very well.

Initially, you're someone, Ian, that whenever, if someone pops up in the news and I'm struggling to get my brain around it, I go and look on LinkedIn and see if you've written something about it.

Because you're really good at helping me going, yes, that.

That's what I think.

And I can't word that so.

But I did just want to say.

As well, thank you.

Thank you.

I don't have kids.

I've never had kids and therefore I've never.

I've never lost a child, so I can't imagine what that feels like.

But I'm just curious just to ask you a little bit about me and Sharon and vice versa, and the.

Forget me not family, you know, how important was that?

So if I focus on the people that I've met rather than the group.

So it's quite lonely when you campaign on your own.

I'm.

As I said, I'm very private, so I'm pretty Rubbish at reaching out to group, group thinking, group therapy and group anything, really, because I'm just wired the way I am.

So I, I recognized that there was something missing and I engaged with Break, as Sharon did, and lots of other people in a kind of more, a more professional way, if that makes sense.

So I would engage with politicians and West Yorkshire Police and various people nationally, government politicians, who have lots and lots of different people.

But you kind of do that in a kind of a very transactional way if, if, if you, if that makes sense.

You're kind of talking about what happened to Alice and what you're asking the politicians to do.

I very much focused on reframing some of the language because I think the language really helps influence how you can share what's happened.

BBC traffic, traffic announcements.

Every single day talk about accidents.

Every single day I hear about an accident on a road and I think that's not an accident, that is a series of events that happen.

That's a crash or collision.

Why can't we change that and BBC won't?

I'm arguing with them again at the moment, I'm trying again with them to see whether they will change that.

But back to your question.

What meeting Sharon, Nicole and Chris, who are the Taylors, did was offer a more emotional, not in a therapy way, but a more emotional connection rather than doing what I was doing in a didactic, businesslike way, if you like, talking to politicians and police and hired a baby and whoever else, it offered an opportunity to share with a very clear understanding that they're in exactly the same boat in.

And that did make a difference.

And we, we bonded, we bonded as a group.

We, we met very regularly, we had lots of other people who were involved.

We set up a group, we had experts.

So we, we had.

We were lucky.

I don't quite know how we managed it, Sharon, but we managed to encourage three of the UK leading experts.

Sorry, four of the UK leading experts to join our group.

So we were informed by academics who were experts in young driver safety, who'd published, researched, collected data for decades and decades, and that guided us as campaigners and eventually we ended up with Forget me Not Families uniting formally a few years later.

And I think the fact that the four of us met back then was certainly, from my point of view, offered a different.

Offered a different degree, a different type of support in terms of the loneliness of campaigning on your own.

Of course, you know that there's hundreds of people out there, of course you don't.

You know, you can see them, you can see them in the papers and the news.

And every single day you read about another crash, four people every day are killed.

I think it's something like 82 people with last year's data, but it's something like 82 people who are killed or seriously injured every single day.

And having Sharon, Nicole and Chris over that period of time was both informative in terms of shaping the campaign that we'd been doing, but also just on an emotional level, really helpful to know that you're not on your own, that actually there are people that I know, and I know lots more people now.

Sharon knows more because she's much better at those networks and those connections and that kind of emotional side of things than I am.

But just knowing that people are there.

Sharon and I probably talk every week even it might be a text, it might be a phone call.

And that just helps you with the Drumbeater campaigning.

It helps you when you have your lows and your dips and you're, oh, my God, it's horrible.

And this has happened and I can't stand this particular thing that happened last week or never adapt.

Might have been you kind of get back on.

Kind of back on the horse, in the saddle, if you like, and you just keep going and you keep going.

In part because of people like Sharon and Chris and Nicole and many, many, many others.

Yeah, yeah, I think.

Yeah.

Going back to, like the start of us all meeting.

What it was for me was that I needed to speak to other bereaved parents.

That was part of my hoping mechanism, is that I needed to speak to other bereaved parents.

And I'd seen on the.

The RoadPeace website at the time, Pete and Ondine Campbell and their daughter Fern, and they were campaigning for GDL.

So I'd reached out to RoadPeace and it was Victoria Labrec.

And at the time, that family were going through an awful court case.

And so they weren't ready to kind of formally start campaigning for ddl, even though DDL would have saved firm's life.

They.

They were.

Had too much to deal with at the time with the court case.

And so that was then that the.

Victoria said to me about Mr. Nicole Taylor.

And then she came back to me and said that she'd had another man get in touch with her, and it was Ian.

And so then she, she.

She organized these online meetings, didn't she?

And because at the time we were in lockdown, and that was, that was.

It was kind of Victoria's suggestion that we all speak together, even Though I needed to speak to other people, it never came into my head to have these like, zoom meetings and what have you together.

But that was how it kind of all came about, was speaking together and with the, with the researchers all getting involved as well.

Well, it was that for the Caitlin's campaign website.

I was trying to add as much information to the, to the website as possible, with us setting it up.

We launched it on Caitlin's 20th birthday, actually, which always falls during breaks, Road Safety Week.

And I'd seen online about Dr. Sarah Jones being the world's leading expert in GDL, it said about her.

So I'd reached out to Sarah and she agreed to an interview on the Caitlin's campaign website.

And that was brilliant, what she did the interview.

She.

She is absolutely amazing when she speaks about gdl.

It just all makes sense what she says.

And, and then she said to me about.

Or she was in touch with Shawn Hellman from Transport Research Laboratory.

Would I like to speak to him as well?

And so then I wrote to Sean and he wrote back about how he got involved in researching graduated driving licensing.

And then Sean said, would, would it be all right to introduce Neil and bring him into the meetings as well.

And so all kind of rollercoasters, like that kind of thing.

And.

And then Liz Box as well got involved.

And I think that that may have been through Chris and Nicole Taylor reaching out to Liz.

I'm not, not certain, but I think that was.

Look, as I said, we then every month we were having these meetings and we've just got this bond now, haven't we, Ian?

That, you know, it's, it's really, you know, I'm so grateful to Victoria for introducing us all kind of thing.

And as you said then, it was the idea of, well, you know, if there's us three families.

And then more and more I was hearing about, it was then that idea of we all need to be together doing this.

And that's when a specific name was put to it, which was Forget Me, not Families United.

So, yeah, I need that connection with bereaved families that totally understand when they've lost a child through the same circumstances kind of thing.

And that's really helped me.

But I think as well it is that knowing that somebody's there.

So if I am having a bad day, who are.

Ian usually gets the text message from me and then once we put the will to rights and then we move on kind of thing, don't we and carry on with our campaigning.

So it's just nice to know that they're there for us, everybody's there for us, because we all know what we're going through.

And campaigning is so difficult.

It's more difficult than what I realized it would be when I decided to start campaigning.

There is knockbacks all the time.

And to find out that graduated driving licensing has been spoken about for decades and all these researchers have done all this research and given the evidence to government and still nothing has been put in place as yet.

It is hard and it's very frustrating, but I think when these specific dates come about, it puts that fire back in your belly.

As you know, I am going to speak up for my child.

I am going to carry on doing this.

And as I put in my LinkedIn post the other day, on Caitlin's anniversary, while there's breath in my body, I will fight for justice for my daughter.

The other thing, Perry, that I think, whilst government, the current government, still are not considering, quote, not considering graduated driving licensing, one of the things that Sharon and I talk about is by having a profile, however, whatever that means.

I don't really know what that means actually, but we, I get a lot of people I know Sharon does too, asking about what a graduated driving licensing system is and how they can apply it to their young person in their life.

And that, that, that for me is one of the reasons I keep going.

There's lots of other reasons which I've shared, but one of the reasons is that by, by talking about how we can help new drivers, young drivers, we can get them, most of them are really sensible, most of them understand what a GDL is and most of them will want to not be a daft driver.

Background to how important driving instructors are in this space as well.

But one of the things about having a profile is that those conversations are now happening because it's in the media, because it's in professional organizations, it is much more visible.

And because it is much more visible, people are talking about it.

And because people are talking about it, they're putting in their own graduated driving licensing.

So I hear a lot of people say, well, actually, I'm not going to allow my young person to do this or that because I'm paying for their insurance.

And actually I want them to survive their first vomited years as a new driver.

And that's really important because back to what both Sharon and I have both said, we want to make a difference.

And even if that's not currently the current government Doing anything substantive in terms of GDL other than in Northern Ireland, I having that conversation visible.

Other people are making changes and that's a good thing.

I think as well, with what, with Caitlin's case is what I always want to highlight, and I think it's like a prime example of why GDL is needed is that the coroner put it down to inexperience.

I always wanted to make people aware that there was no breaking of any laws that the newly qualified driver, she was just not.

She was just.

But she was driving a little too fast for her experience of driving on that wet river road.

And she didn't have another driver in the car with her to advise her to slow down.

You're coming up to a corner now.

She was my son's girlfriend and maybe if Aiden had been sat in the car with her, he could have advised her with him being that bit older and had been driving for a few more years than her.

But Caitlin, the friend in the back, weren't drivers and so they couldn't give any advice to her to slow down.

There's a bend coming up now.

And also I also like to always point out that it was a female driver.

That, you know, there's, there's always lots of judgments when a crash has occurred, I feel.

And that's why I always like to point out that it was a female driver and there was no breaking of any laws.

It was purely inexperience.

And that is what a lot of the research on GDL shows.

It's youth and inexperience.

She'd only been driving for four months and she was only 18 years old.

You know, we know that the brain development isn't.

The brain isn't fully developed at that age.

And so, you know, I always want to point that out because there isn't.

This isn't about blame in any way.

It's about this crash could have been prevented if this life saving law had been in place.

I just wanted to add to that as well because I didn't put that in.

I didn't say that at the beginning about the crash.

That's really important, Sharon, isn't it?

How we talk about this stuff influences how people respond.

So the political, the current secretary of state, I haven't heard her talk about anything else other than the drive.

I'm like you, geeky.

We keep an eye on what they're all saying and doing.

So I may have missed it, so I apologize if I have missed it.

But every single speech or every single question that has been answered is all about the young driver.

Young drivers accounts again, I should have written the numbers down but it's something like 27% of all KSIs are the driver.

The other 70 odd percent are other road users and their passengers.

And one of the things that Sharon and I spend a lot of time talking about is it's not just a driver.

And of course that's really important.

And we don't want to not talk about the young driver but the others have a right to be in this space as well.

And I don't know what else the Department for Transport would call other road users.

Don't know what the word would be but just it feels like emotionally it feels like an afterthought.

Alice and the 50% of other people who were killed in young driver collisions just feels like, well, oh, it's others.

We kind of all just forget about those.

And then when the government doesn't talk about them.

And that's why framing is really important and that's one of the reasons why Sharon and I do what we do.

Sharon always talks about Caitlin as a passenger and that nobody did anything wrong.

Inherently wrong.

There are lots of drivers who do break the law and they get the profile.

It's all that daft young lad that did something daft, something stupid, broke the law, didn't have his seatbelt and was speeding, was on drugs.

We talk about that a lot.

What we don't talk about about are one, the consequences on passengers and other road users but also in terms of it is about their inexperience.

It's about the maturity of their brain.

Mentioned neurophysiology and adolescence lasts a long time.

So we're not, we, we often will blame the young driver and often it's not necessarily their fault.

There are obviously somewhere that makes some stupid choices and it very definitely is their fault.

But that, that shouldn't frame how we talk about this stuff.

It's about helping a young driver to be safe, having the skills and experience through what driving instructors and their family, parents, whoever will instill within them.

But then we don't then talk about what happens next.

And that's why it's really important that we don't blame them.

We want to engage young people in this space to make them better drivers, but, but also to stop other families like mine and Sharon's going through what we've been through.

But framing a language is really very, very important.

Yeah, the messaging is important, isn't it?

That's the thing.

The messaging around gdl, I feel is important.

Getting the right, I should say language around gdl, it's safeguarding our young drivers.

You know, we have safeguards in every other area of life, why not in driving?

You know, so I think that's important as well.

You know, we need to get it across to families, parents in particular, because as, as I've said before, I was totally unaware of graduated driving licensing before this happened to our family.

And to think that, you know, for decades before this, this was being spoken about in Parliament and another bereaved families campaigning long before I was just needs to be spoken about more and to get that information out to parents as much as possible.

And that's why I'm so grateful that driving instructors are now getting in touch with me and asking me to speak at events because they're the first contact with these young people and the parents that are learning to drive.

And so it's very important to me to get that correct message out to as many parents as possible.

Because I think a lot of people, if I probably went out into the street in a city or somewhere, I mean, as I say in my local area, everybody knows what I campaign for.

But I think if I went into a city and stopped somebody in the street and asked them, do you know what graduated driving licensing is?

A lot of people may not know or may have the wrong impression of it, that it's putting restrictions in place them negative words where it's not, it's, it's.

I always think of it as, it's got to be thought of along the lines of an apprenticeship.

You know, we, we have, you know, apprenticeships in these, in workplaces and that's to keep everybody safe, you know, and so we need these safeguards in place for driving because, you know, at the end of the day, this is the second leading cause of death in the UK is road traffic collisions.

Worldwide, it's the leading cause of deaths.

And I don't think a lot of people realize that either because in the media it's always spoken about other deaths by young people, such as their knife crime.

And you know, the social media ban is, is coming into place soon as well for young people.

And so I don't think a lot of people realize that.

You know how you combat list, you know, the second leading cause of death is road traffic collisions in our younger generation.

So the more we speak about this, the better.

Hello, my name is Stuart Lochrie.

I'm the founder at Bright Coaching.

Driving instruction has changed.

Today's learners need more than just skills and practice and reps to pass a driving test.

They need coaching that addresses the higher levels of the GDE on every single lesson.

That's why we created the Professional Diploma in Coaching and Behavioural Change for Safe Driving.

This accredited qualification, equivalent to a BTech Professional Award Level 4.

5, Gives you the tools and recognition to transform the way you teach.

With Bright coaching, you can leave the DVSA behind and step into a modern learner focused approach, one that shifts the paradigm of driver education for instructors, for pupils and for parents all across the country.

At BrightCoaching, we are training the next generation of driving instructors.

To check availability for our online cohorts and in person cohorts, please visit the [email protected] and you can also sign up to our mailing list where you'll be informed of all the latest early book discounts as they become available with standards.

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It's interesting that you mentioned there the social media ban I've seen recently, the banning energy drinks for under 16s.

I just think of that and I think hold on, we've got raw death and energy drinks and I'm not saying we shouldn't ban energy drinks, that's not what I'm saying.

But we which, which is going to have the biggest impact and, and somehow they feel like it's going for that and, and when I think of the whole premise of it, it's like if we were designing a process now of someone learns drive, it wouldn't be a 50 question theory test, 40 minute driving test in an area you're probably driven around and no mandated training and then you're off.

You know if, if driving didn't exist and we would redes design it from scratch, that would be completely different and I don't know where it comes from.

Take lots of different guesses but it's that resistance to it, that consistent resistance to it.

Terry One of the things that is kind of really difficult to understand but also you scratch your head is the inconsistency across government about where they're prepared to legislate and where they're not.

The legal definition of a child still in the UK's Children act which says that a child is somebody who's under the age of 18.

So that's all 17 year olds who drive.

Government deems that 17 year olds can drive, but they can't have energy drinks, they can't do social media, they can't take a mortgage out, they can't.

There's a whole raft of things they're not able to do.

But for historical reasons we allow €17 to drive.

So we don't campaign to change the age because I guess that will be political suicide.

But we do campaign to help adolescents get through because we help them get through all the other things like mortgages, like, or voting.

Currently, 16 year olds don't vote in England, that's going to change.

So we allow them to vote and to drive, but we don't allow allow them to do all the other things.

But then government won't help them through a graduation like an apprenticeship.

Sharon describes it to help them get experience and get more mature and get older, which is a really valid part of this.

And that inconsistency is just.

Has there been any change since you've been campaigning?

Have you noticed that?

Whether that's political or cultural or just the way you've changed potentially, has there been any change?

Well, the biggest change is that we've got a road safety strategy.

I think that's the biggest thing since I've started campaigning.

I think we've got Lillian Greenwood now that totally understands the need for gdl.

Actually, she's always supported my campaign in all my years of campaign and she's supported me.

Maybe you want to come in here, Ian.

And my mind's gone blank.

So I think the things for me.

I agree with Sharon.

So when I wrote my thesis we hadn't had an effective road safety strategy.

So if we think that this government has done a road safety strategy, good for them.

That's one of the things I've campaigned over the years, is that we need to talk about this stuff.

It needs to have a national focus.

We need a strategy and then actual plans and the conversation that then follows which is positive.

And what follows from a road safety strategy is a conversation.

It ends up in the media, it ends up on podcasts, Terry, like this.

We talk about this stuff and that's really important.

A big part of the strategies was politicians getting out there and talking to the media, talking to their constituents, talking to the general public about why we need to do various interventions to save lives and to stop injury and to save money and to stop people going into the NHS and all the reasons why we need to do that.

So that's really, really important and what's.

What's gone along with that.

And I think me and Sharon, in no small.

Well, we'll see how big a part that's played.

But by talking about graduated driving licensing specifically, you've invited us to this podcast, Terry.

Had we not done what we'd done, I doubt that would have happened.

We get invited into conferences, into the media and we laugh at each other because we're going.

The BBC have been in touch again and it's really quite funny because neither has ever wanted to do this stuff.

So what the point I'm making is that it's part of the discourse now, it's part of the conversation and I'm going to pick on a journalist now.

Ex politician Ed Balls interviewed people a few years ago on the telly about graduated driving licensing.

And he was laughing and he was very kind of dismissive.

And driving is a.

Is a right, isn't it?

It's not a privilege, it's what all young.

I remember when I was a young driver and the story came out that was really offensive, but it was also indicative of the kind of narrative at the time.

Fast forward.

Ed Balls interviewed somebody else on the telly and it was very, very different.

And I think that whilst picking on an individual.

Sorry, Ed, don't know you what.

What that demonstrated to me was the discourse change.

It moved from a bit of a joke and a bit of, well, we don't want to do that, do we?

Because we don't want our young drivers to be penalized and stop them doing what they're doing to a conversation that's much more balanced.

So I think that's been one of the biggest changes for me.

Yes, we've got a road safety strategy.

Yes, that's really important.

The conversation has definitely shifted and lots of the big polling organizations have done polls.

And one of the things that I get crossed with government about is there's an IPPR poll, there was a break poll, There was a YouGov poll.

There's been loads of them in the last year or so.

And there's older ones.

The general public are very, very supportive of Interventions that save lives.

One of the headlines was people are more prepared to be maybe two minutes late if everybody else arrives at their destination safely.

Something like 97%.

I mean, it's unheard of.

I probably quoted the wrong number there, but a very, very large number.

So that, for me is one of the biggest changes that we are now talking about road safety much more positively and in conversations that are more helpful, more critical in terms of, well, how can we make change?

What is it that is the appropriate things to do?

Sadly, GDL is not part of what government yet are prepared to do.

But by talking about it, that's really, really, I think, really powerful.

And I think that's why we've ended up in a large extent where we are today.

I feel like I should clarify one thing, actually, and that is it is perfectly acceptable on this podcast at least to criticize head balls.

I have no issue with that at all.

I do want to ask, and I think I want to ask you both, but I'll start with you, Sharon, with this.

I think, as we can see, I think there's very little significant change.

I think even just over the last few years, I've seen a slight change in the way it's spoken about, but in terms of, like, political, it's very little significant buy in the real estranged strategy.

How do you keep going?

Because even just for me does it on a much smaller scale than you.

And it's very much tailored to all driving instructions.

There are times when I go, I can't be bothered anymore because I'm just headbutting a wall.

You know, for someone like yourself that's obviously got a national media.

And I appreciate what you said, Ian, coming on this podcast.

I appreciate this with a highlight compared to BBC and Sky News, everything.

I get that.

But, yeah, Sharon, how do you keep going when you're constantly sort of coming up against these brick walls?

I think it is, as I say, it's because it's my way of coping.

And it's the fact that Caitlin's not here.

Caitlin's not here and she should be.

I shouldn't be going to a church and placing flowers with her.

And special family occasions like this afternoon, you know, the children's tea party.

I'm going to.

Caitlin should be there with all the rest of the family that keeps me focused in that, you know, I am going to.

I am going to speak up about Caitlin, that she should be here.

But I think, as well, as I said, with the kindness that has been shown to me, you know, and as Ian mentioned we are being contacted by so many people all the time wanting us to speak at conferences and, and things like that, you know, and go to road safety events.

You know, recently I was, I was invited to a Poppy Tall in Manchester to a road safety event where they're wanting to get road safety into the curriculum and I was invited along to that and you know, that that means the world to me kind of that they've gone to that effort of asking me if I would like to be at that event.

It means, it means so much that with me talking about what happened to Caitlin, her name is getting out there and I'm being invited to events.

So keeping myself busy is my way of coping.

Keeping my mind focused on this campaign is very important to me because as we know that we would do anything for our children as parents, wouldn't we?

You know, I, I'd rather it was me that had been killed that evening than, than my daughter.

She should be living, you know, she should be living her life and looking forward to things and yeah, I just think it's that it's just the kindness that is shown to people.

I mean recently as well, there's a driving collision investigator, forensic collision investigator from Cumbria who is retired now and of course he knows about Caitlin's case.

He worked on Caitlin's case and he's retired and he now works on his family's coach company.

He reached out to me and asked about on the back of the coaches he would, we would put Caitlin's campaign on the protection driver's website to kind of get the message out, to help get the message out because he goes to schools, picking school children up, taking them on school trips and you know, that, that kindness to do that.

I mean, you know, he's got I think four coaches at the moment with, with it on the back of the back windows and then he's now speaking to other coach companies.

So we've now got another coach company that's come along, KT's coaches from Kendall.

They've now got two coaches with it on the back of them, their coaches windows and, and, and so now that's like roller coaster and into.

Now I'm looking at having leaflets made to go on the coaches because he's having so many people ask about oh well what is that then on the back of the coach, you know.

So now I'm getting leaflets made about what Caitlin's campaign is that, you know, I want the go to the protection driver's website.

And so, you know it's, it's acts like that, that keep me going as well because people are showing so much like kindness towards me as well.

And for me, Terry, I guess dads are supposed to look after their daughters, aren't they?

Their children, their sons.

And I didn't quite manage that with Alice.

So like Sharon, that's a really big, big part of what I do.

What I do.

The other reason is injustice.

So I'm.

I'm wired in a certain way.

I quite like logic, I quite like things making sense and not doing GDL doesn't make sense.

And it's like that scratch as to the why, the why question.

Why won't government do gdl?

They talk about evidence, they talk about listening to the public, they talk about coroner's advice being taken on board, but they ignore all of those three factors in terms of young people, young drivers.

So that, that injustice that I see, that they refuse to support young drivers, new drivers, in a way that the evidence suggests, in the way that the public demand and in a way that coroners.

Sharon talked about preventing future deaths earlier.

There's a whole stack of them sat on the Department of Traffic and Sports desk, but there's a stack for older people and their eyesight which they've taken action on or they are consulting on, have consulted on taking action on.

But there's the similar pile on the same desk for young drivers and graduated driving licensing that they're not taking account of.

So that, that I see that as injustice and I see that as illogical.

They talk a lot about evidence.

The evidence for gdl is about 40 years old.

It's across different continents, it's across countries, it's across different disciplines within academia with neuroscience, neuropsychologists from human factors, from the whole ray of different people who research in these spaces, but they ignore that.

So that, that injustice that, that error that I think government is making is really important.

And I'm.

I'm not going to give up.

I know, I know.

I know full well Sharon's not going to give up either.

And there are.

There are hundreds of us out there.

There are literally hundreds of us out there.

Government and their position is illogical.

And that's, that's one of the major.

Other than Alice, which is the major reason, but the other, the other reason is that just doesn't make sense.

What, why won't they do it?

Why does the Secretary of State talking about driving to Swindon when she was 17 and how wonderful that was.

It was a right of passage.

She says, yeah, that's great.

I remember when I was passing my test, of course, it's a milestone, but it's a privilege and it's something that you need support with and government won't.

And that keeps me going because they have to.

Yeah.

And I think with me as well is that we're just, as I've noticed when you look at which recently there was a submission shared with me and Ian that had been written in the 90s to transport select Committee Inquiry then.

And reading that submission in the 90s, when that was the decade when I was building my family, all my three children were born in the 90s.

And as I say, I knew nothing about GDL then.

It just beckons the leaf, really, that.

But it's basically, we're going around in circles writing the same thing over and over and over again, every decade kind of thing, or every year even to government.

And really, at the end of the day, we should be saying, well, where's your evidence to not implement this law?

You know, all the evidence has been given to them to implement this law and how it will save lives.

You know, we've got seven preventing future death reports from seven different coroners recommending that GDL's implemented.

So where is their evidence not to bring it in as law?

We're not getting that back from them kind of thing.

It's their opinion what they speak about.

It's not evidence, isn't it, Ian?

They go quiet, don't they, Sharon?

So we have to provide all the things Sharon's case listed.

But then we say, why have you said no?

And then the silence.

So just, just a bit of history.

Sorry, yeah.

There were four Young Drive transport Committee Inquiry reports, all of.

So the first three all recommended some form of graduated driving licensing or support for young drivers.

So the point that Sharon's making about how long we've been at this, so we know a family whose son.

When did Neil die, Sharon?

80?

86?

86.

So various families have been at this for a very, very long time.

All different governments of all different stripes have all said no.

The big question then, without explaining why?

Sorry, Terry, without explaining why?

Well, that was.

I think that's the question I want to ask and I appreciate I'll be asking for an opinion here.

So I'll ask you Ian, and if you wanted to come in after Sharon, that's fine.

Why?

Why hasn't it?

Is it as simple as it's not a vote winner?

Why don't we treat road deaf equal as overdeaf?

So I think that's a really good question, Terry.

I scratch it the way I think constantly parts of the difficulties they won't say, so there's a lack of honesty.

So if they was to say we're going to consult on graduated driving licensing, which they haven't heard, and we're going to assess the balance between what's really important for young people for their freedom, for their mobility, for their ability to travel in rural areas because there's no public transport.

Let's have a conversation about how we can maintain the ability of young people to travel around.

Oh, by the way, they manage in cities where they don't have cars anyway, so a 17 year old can quite happily travel around.

All those who live rurally who don't choose to drive, they can still manage to travel around.

So there is a balance is the point I'm making.

So there's lots of reasons why we need to encourage people to drive if they choose to and to have access to education, social work, entrepreneurship, etc.

Then there's also the conversation about safety, which we've talked about a lot already.

We haven't even had that conversation.

We haven't had a conversation about where we strike that right balance.

Now Sharon and I and many thousands of others are very clear that that is a graduated driving licensing system where we help people.

But in the absence of a debate, even in how do politicians manage that kind of political risk, we know from the YouGov poll from December last year that very, very high percentages of all age groups support a graduated driving licensing.

So why isn't government being brave?

Why isn't government wanting to talk to us, the voters, about graduated driving licensing?

There's a major opportunity that's just been missed to do that.

So is it because they want to give vote to 16 year olds?

Is it because they're worried about the car lobby?

Is it because there's a whole reasons about why things might be the case and mobility is more important than safety?

Really?

Do we really say that in the airline industry?

Do we really say that it's more important?

It's a bit of a risky pilot.

But don't worry, it's more important to get on the plane and travel.

We don't go back to language.

We don't have that framing.

We don't use that language in the different ways that we do this.

But I think that my main answer to your question, Terry, is we don't know.

And we don't know because politicians, we won't share what their thinking is.

If they would come up with a.

We don't agree with a public health intervention, which is what GDL essentially is.

It's a population based public health intervention that saves lives.

Let's have a conversation about it.

And the fact that they won't breeds kind of.

Well, I'm being polite.

It raises questions, shall we say.

And it's the back to that lack of logic.

It just, it doesn't make sense.

So it's a political choice is what I would say.

It is a.

It is a political choice by this government and all the other governments that preceded it.

Not to do gdl, not to support young drivers to be safer and not to kill almost four kill or seriously injure 4,000.

It's 4,700 people.

Last hurricane, something like that.

Again, I've not collected.

I didn't write any numbers down today my numbers might not be completely accurate.

Hello, my name is Stuart Lochrie.

I'm the founder at Bright Coaching.

Driving instruction has changed.

Today's learners need more than just skills and practice and reps to pass a driving test.

They need coaching that addresses the higher levels of the GDE on every single lesson.

That's why we created the Professional Diploma in Coaching and Behavioural Change for Safe Driving.

This accredited qualification, equivalent to a BT Tech Professional Award Level4.5 gives you the tools and recognition to transform the way you teach.

With Bright Coaching you can leave the DVSA behind and step into a modern learner focused approach.

One that shifts the paradigm of driver education for instructors, for pupils and for parents all across the country.

At BrightCoaching, we are training the next generation of driving instructors.

To check availability for our online cohorts and in person cohorts, please visit the [email protected] and you can also sign up to our mailing list where you'll be informed of all the latest early bug discounts as they become available.

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Anything you want to add to there.

Sharon?

I just think that we shouldn't be putting cars before lives and I don't understand that at all.

I don't understand why a car is more important than a life.

And as, as you said, to drive is, is a, is a privilege and a lot of people don't choose to drive, you know, so I just don't understand the thinking of the government and I don't understand when I met with Heidi Alexander, you know, as speaking about what it was so much fun going on that trip that day when I passed my test and putting all my friends in the car with me.

You know, that isn't research, that isn't evidence, that's opinion and policy should be based on evidence and research.

And a misjudged comment, Terry, dare I say in front of a bereaved mum whose daughter was killed in a car driven by a young driver with mates.

It's really insensitive.

Yeah, but yeah, I also wonder if we underestimate young people sometimes because we've obviously alluded to Staley about the brain not fully forming for quite a while and the difference, the child intolerant.

You know, we've kind of covered that but I think we sometimes underestimate them.

You know, I again I'm exactly using one pupil as an example but I think it's, it reflects a lot because I had a pupil recently who I was talking to and she just said I'm never going to own a car.

And I've asked her why she learns drive.

She says well I'll need to drive sometime so I'll hire one.

And I'm like that had never kind of occurred to me before but we've got someone there that's 17 that's going, I don't really want to drive, I don't really want to own a car but I know it's going to be convenient so I'm going to get my license.

And then it was really interesting conversation because it led to well, if you don't get a car for a year after you pass, well I'll come back for a couple of refresher lessons.

And I'm like this is a 17 year old kid.

And yes, not all 17 year old kids are going to have that exact thing but I do wonder if you underestimate them.

But Anyway, I do want to change tact a little bit and I'm going to ask you first Sharon, because over the past few years, as we've alluded to today, you've been asked to various events, the BBC and whatnot.

But I've seen you personally events or Sharon, you was at the ADI at NJSE convention this year.

Scott Ian, you was up in Scotland for the NJSE scottcon.

I'm curious to know what's the response been like from instructors.

You know, you spoke about instructors reaching out to you.

What's the response been like from driving instructors?

Oh, it's been amazing actually Terry.

I've had so many people reach out to me since speaking at that event as well.

I mean I, I was also, I was already in touch with hit more before that event but I'm speaking with her at the next event in September.

But yeah, Dave Leverton, he's a driving instructor.

He worked for Bill Plant Driving School.

I think he's set setting up his own company now.

But a few months back he got in touch with me and he came to my home and made a video which I shared in my presentation that day.

So yeah, the response has been absolutely lovely.

I've been asked to write a blog recently and also Lee, Lee Jowett, he shared a write up about Caitlin as well that I'd written.

So to get their support is absolutely brilliant.

Yeah, I'm really grateful yourself.

Similarly for me, Terry, I guess universally positive and kind of you cannot almost see the kind of light bulb going on.

I mean literally I of course I can't see a light bulb going on, but kind of almost people kind of go oh yes, actually I'm looking at this slightly differently and, and I suspect that there are driving instructors out there who we don't know and haven't engaged who probably need a little bit more persuasion to kind of come to our way of thinking.

But that's part of the challenge.

But in terms of those that have I've talked to Sharon's talked to universally Positive and the kind of we can do something about this as driving instructors mentality which is just delightful to see that even if governments are not currently wanting to do very much, you guys see these young people every single day of your working life.

And the that's what I was saying earlier in the conversation that actually one of the joys is that we see people engaging in the conversation and doing something about it, whether they are parents, whether they are driving instructors or whoever they might be.

That in of itself makes a big Difference.

Even if one driving instructor alters the way that they do their job, their career, their profession, to have road safety even more front and center than maybe it was previously, that's a success.

That's why Sharon and I do support you, Terry, in terms of your work, in terms of getting the message across and all your other colleagues.

It's really, really powerful and we just need to get to those who maybe aren't quite there yet.

I'm curious then, what are your, have you formed an opinion on, I suppose, driving instructors or the work we do?

And has that changed since you may become a little bit more interactive with driving instructors?

For me, Terry, I guess I was guilty of forgetting about you.

So if I, if I look back and my own driving instructor, she was very influential, obviously I remember her name, I remember how she looked.

I remember, I mean, it's a very long time ago now for me.

I crossed my test when I was 17, so I, I, I intellectually knew how important driving instructors were.

But in my campaigning I, I was late to the party, if you like, and I didn't include driving instructors, I didn't include other groups as well, by the way.

I wasn't just picking on driving instructors by ignoring you.

But, but that, that for me the importance of, we've talked about the ripple effect in terms of society and how many people are involved and the more people we can engage, like driving instructors and all the others that are involved, the better.

So I was late to the party in terms of driving instructors, but I've changed my mind completely.

I just think that your profession is pivotal, okay, Your hands are tied by what government requires you to do, but what driving instructors can do is very, very significant.

Supporting and drivers, they say.

So I'm, I'm really happy to support what you guys do and I don't forget about you anymore.

And I've got to mention as well my Caitlin's message, which is in the booklet that's handed out by driving instructors, isn't it?

And it's in the, the Learning to Drive the Parents guide.

I've got to mention that too because that's driving instructors that hand that, that booklet out.

So yeah,.

You, Sharon, as I alluded to there driving instructions have reached out to you.

You've been to the conferences where you've met.

What are your thoughts on the work we do?

And potentially, as you said, has that changed?

I think it's amazing, the work that you do.

And, you know, we need to get road safety into the.

Into the learning to drive process as well.

And I think that's what Kate's very passionate about, isn't she, with what she's doing?

And then we've got the honest truth as well.

And I think they're great initiatives, you know, that.

That are out there.

So, yeah, the work that you do, it must be a lot of pressure on you as well.

So, yeah, I think you're great, Terry.

Well, I wasn't pushing my compliments, but I'll happily accept them.

Is there anything else either you would like to mention today?

I think just about our work going forward kind of thing.

It's like, you know, still trying to get more MPs on board.

That's.

That's my aim now.

You know, we're getting a change of government as well, so there's going to be a few changes in government, so that will be interesting for our campaigning.

But, yeah, at the moment it's working on getting more MPs involved.

As I say, I was at the Hopwood Hall College in Manchester and luckily Elsie Blundell was there, who.

She is part of the Transport Select Committee.

And so I managed to have a conversation with her and she said that she will have a meeting with me and my mp, which is good, and that I'll be able to speak with her.

It was just so lucky that she was there.

We were promised that Andy Burnham would be there as well, but I think with everything going on, he probably wasn't able to.

But as I say, if we do have, and it's looking like we are going to have Andy Burnham as the mayor, as the Prime Minister.

Sorry, then I think that's quite hopeful as well, because I know that he has supported the Hillsborough families in not getting their voices heard and getting justice for them.

And so hopefully he looks at road safety like that and our campaigning like that as well, that this has been going on for decades as well, about graduated driving licensing.

So hopefully, you know, we get Andy on board with our campaign, but I've also got a local MP to me, Josh McAllister, he's the children and Families Minister.

And as Ian mentioned earlier, you know, the 17 year old, you're.

You are classed as a minor still, and there's so many 17 year olds that are killed in road traffic collisions.

So I'm hoping to get a meeting with him as well.

I've written to him recently, but I do, I do have the support, actually, from all the Cumbrian MPs.

There was a letter written from my police, crime and fire commissioner that from Cumbria and all the MPs did sign the letter to the Department for Transportation thought about graduated driving licensing.

But why I specifically want to speak to Josh is because he is the Minister for Children and Families.

So hopefully, as I say all my writing to MPs recently, I get a few more on board.

I'd say two things, Terry.

Thank you to driving instructors for what you do, because I, I don't think I could do it.

So I think that's really, really important role in society that we probably don't thank you enough.

And secondly, don't underestimate how influential you guys are because you are influential with the young person that's in your car with you on any the day.

And the opportunity to make a difference with one individual is real.

Don't underestimate that.

Keep going.

And secondly, through your professional organizations, driving instructors voice should be louder at government tables and it isn't.

So I would encourage the professional organizations who represent your profession to shout louder to get their pointy elbows out and get at those tables more than maybe than you currently do.

Varsity.

And you are the early patron of the ADI njc of which I am.

Yeah, I haven't mentioned.

Yes, probably should have started with that to be fair, shouldn't we?

Okay, cool.

Well, Ian, do you want to just take a moment just to tell people where they can find you or if there's somewhere you'd like to direct people?

So I, I use LinkedIn as an easy vehicle for kind of contact if you like.

If anybody wants to listen to what my rents or my posts are, then that's probably the best way.

Yeah.

And Sharon, where can people find your issue?

Anywhere you want to direct anyone to,.

To reach out to me that I'm the same as Ian, actually it'd be on LinkedIn probably, but yeah, I don't mind anybody reaching out to me and if there's any families out there that want to join our campaign and then please do reach out to us.

You know, anybody listening to this might suddenly think, oh well, that might have saved my, my child's life as well, you know.

So yes, please do reach out to us.

And I am mainly on, on LinkedIn but my email address can probably be found or passed on through Break the Road Safety charity.

I'll link all links to those in the show notes.

But I just want to take a moment to thank you for joining me today.

Thank you for sharing those stories and thank you for all the campaigning you're doing.

I think that you guys.

And the more of the road safety vicinity, if you like, the more that you guys support us as driving instructors.

It actually empowers us a bit more when parents and pupils hear other people talking about this, rather than it's just us sounding like we're nagging in a car.

It prints a broader spectrum.

So, yeah, big thank you for joining us today.

And big thank you for all you do.

Thank you, Terry.

Yeah.

Thank you for inviting us and getting the message out.

That's really, really important.

Yeah.

Thank you so much for all your support, Terry.

The instructor podcast with Terry Cook, talking with leaders, innovators, experts and game changers about what drives them.