What does it really take to survive - and build a long career - in the music industry?

In this episode of Backstage Money, host Jason K. Powers sits down with Shawn Duncan, drummer for L.A. Guns and founding member of Odin, to talk about the realities of life as a working musician.

Shawn has spent decades performing, recording, and touring in rock music. From the legendary Sunset Strip scene to stages around the world, he shares lessons musicians often learn the hard way about professionalism, persistence, and navigating the business side of music.

This conversation dives into the realities behind the stage lights and what it actually takes to build longevity in a tough industry.

In this episode we discuss:

• Lessons from decades in the rock music world
• The realities of touring and performing professionally
• What younger musicians often misunderstand about the industry
• Why relationships and professionalism still matter
• The mindset required to stay in the music business long-term

If you're an artist trying to build a sustainable career, this episode offers insight from someone who has lived it.

Follow L.A. Guns

Official Website: https://www.lagunsmusic.com

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/L.A.GunsOfficial/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/laguns/

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Free Resource for Musicians

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Welcome to Backstage Money, real World Finance for Musicians.

I'm your host, Jason K. Powers, and this is where music and money collide

with honest stories and practical lessons from people who make it work.

So let's get to it.

Today I am joined by Shawn Duncan, a powerhouse drummer whose career spans

decades on US and European stages.

He was a founding member of Sunset Strip Legends Odin with past runs.

Including BulletBoys, killer B and more notably now social disorder and LA guns.

You would recognize some of the other things you may have seen

'em in was the decline of Western civilization, the metal years as well.

Legendary Shawn, Shawn is logged dozens of releases and lives by

the mantra have drums, will travel.

Shawn, welcome to the show.

Hey, well, glad to be here, man.

Yeah, man, I appreciate it.

You know, I always like to jump into these and just kind of have an origin

story conversation and talk about kinda how did you get into music to begin with?

My father was a songwriter and a and he was a a performer.

He always had, always was playing music.

He had a big hit in 1962 Let's Go, which you hear it.

Every sporting event.

basically around the world.

And it's that hand clap.

Let's go.

My dad wrote that.

We grew up with around instruments and my dad would have rehearsals with some band

or whatever he was doing in our garage sometimes, or we'd be dragged to the

rehearsals 'cause there was three of us.

And, I would always veer, get into the drum set, and he never like

forced music on us, but we were surrounded by it, I mean everywhere.

And we went, there was music when we, my dad, it's funny, I'm wearing this shirt,

but my dad had one of these VW campers.

He had a stereo in there and we'd be listening to Chicago and Gladys Knight

and the Pips and I can go on and on about the music that we were surrounded with.

So as we started to get older, I started dragging my mom's pans and Tupperware

out and I started beating on that stuff and Jeff grabbed my youngest

bro, my middle brother, who's the guitar player in Armored Saint Jeff.

Gravitated.

My father was a guitar player and Jeff just went straight to the guitar.

There was no and if or but about it.

So that's kinda, and then as time went on, kind of getting long story short me and

Jeff was in a band in junior high school called The Termites, and drummer grounded

and, but he left his drum set there.

Because he said, if you guys wanna still play and you can find a drummer to do it.

And so Jeff goes, oh, my brother plays drums.

I never had a drum set up to that point.

I only beat the shit out of Tupperware.

So anyway, I went in and we, I did it and it worked.

And then two weeks later, I was better than that guy basically.

And they kept me and, we did a talent show, and that morphed

into Odin because it was mine and Jeff's band, Odin was our band.

And Jeff met Aaron in junior high school.

He joined and then Randy joined, then Odin kind of, that was kind of

the, the beginning of everything.

But it all started because our father was really.

He did a lot of stuff behind the scenes in music as well.

He did a lot of arrangements for Bones Howe for the association

for he worked with Jim Messina.

He did, there was a lot of history there we got to see and we were just surrounded

by music and that's what did it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Just that exposure

Yeah.

and, and.

I mean, you know, so a lot of people who are, you know, their, their carpenters,

their father were carpenters, you know, and because you're raised in it and you

develop an interest if it's something that in intrigues you and you get really good

at it because you're learning from being a little guy as opposed to learning a

new trade at, you know, 18, 19 years old.

Yep.

it's a different beast.

Yep.

Right, right.

And so as this evolved what kind of became the trajectory for you

guys and what was that like as you kind of start growing out there?

Well, I mean, this was 19 when Odin started to take off.

This was the early eighties in the Sunset Strip and things were just getting hot.

I remember seeing Motley Crue on a Wednesday night at the TRO at the whiskey

Mm-hmm.

with about a hundred people.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and then from there on everybody, you know, from Mickey Ratt who turned

into Ratt, Dante Fox, who turned in to Great White, I, I, I there from

the beginning, but I was 16 years old.

And Odin we got we earned like a, back then there was a lot of kegger

parties, which were the best thing in the world to go play, right?

And so we did a lot of kegger parties and we developed a really strong following

and, we had another guitar player.

We had two guitar players early in, in the origins of the band.

And one of 'em was very good friends with Chris Holmes from

WASP and Chris took a liking to us.

And so we were pretty industrious and we managed to make our

own little EP little 45 thing.

And, once we got that, then Chris put us on a bill with WASP at the Troubadour

opening for wasp's, direct support for a blood drive that had tons of advertising

and everything, and that kinda, that kind of took us to the next level back.

Back then, there was no such thing as pay to play.

Mm-hmm.

You, you had to have a draw or you weren't getting into a club.

That was That was a bottom line.

And so we had one, we had a solid draw from all the parties we did.

So they also, the club started seeing, Hey, these guys bring people.

Then next thing I know, we were, we op, we played the palace theater

with Armored Saint and Malice.

And that was my first really big venue.

That was about, I think the Palace holds 2,500 seats.

Hmm.

I don't even remember the show.

I was in like a bubble.

Yeah.

And then we did shows with keel and with it just kept going.

Okay.

Then we recorded another record.

When that came out, the banner had a really solid, we were headlining

the clubs in LA at that point.

And this local radio station called K NAC started playing our,

a song called Shining Love by Odin.

A lot.

We were on heavy rotation.

Mm-hmm.

and, and then next thing I knew, you know, we were opening up

for Dokken at the Palladium.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, and, and then we were going on tour with, with Alcatraz and Uli Jon Roth.

So was just a, it just kept going until it didn't, you

It.

Yeah.

And then, and then we recorded another record, but that took

forever to finish in a nutshell.

And then we got asked to do the Decline movie.

And we did that movie.

And then it wasn't long after that that we split up.

We just j we just decided this, isn't we.

We didn't get a major deal.

We had, we had, well we made all our own records, so we had like a

distro deal with Green World, then we had a licensing agreement for

our last album with JVC Victor.

Mm-hmm.

So we never really got a a, an official big label behind us.

So we were kind of tired and frustrated with that.

And then Jeff went, and immediately when the band broke

up, Jeff was an Armored Saint.

So Jeff's been an armored saint for over 30 years, and that was

basically the trajectory of Odin.

Mm-hmm.

And what launched all of us and the connections we made

from that period of time

Yeah.

is what led to other things along with

reputation and, and that kind of stuff,

Mm-hmm.

So that led to various things that, that I did in my life.

After that, me and Jeff had a band.

Have we, I'm gonna say have, 'cause we never really broke it up or anything, but

called DC4, which is still me and Jeff.

My youngest brother, Matt plays bass.

He plays on it.

And Rowan Robertson plays guitar.

So we've done that band, did five records again, we did 'em all.

Um.

Mm-hmm.

And, and, 'cause that's what you do.

You know, it's like, I don't know how to explain it.

It's like it's very punk rock, I guess that you just say,

f*** it, I'm gonna do it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

uh, that's kind of how the attitude we always had.

Yep.

Yep.

So we, you know, we did that and then I did the social no,

then I did the BulletBoys.

BulletBoys was interesting because on that tour, one of those tours

we went out with Gunzo, which was Tracii Guns and Rudy Sarzo's project.

And that's where I met Tracii.

And we became friends.

We used to stay up late and chat and stuff.

And we became friends.

And over time, it led to me being in LA Guns, that, that, that connection

right there did it Relationship.

Occasionally we'd, I'd text him and say, Hey, how you doing?

You know, that kind of

Yeah.

And just, just keeping in contact.

And then one day outta the blue, I got a text from Tracii.

It says, Hey, what are you doing this summer?

And I'm like, well, what do you need?

You know?

Oh, I'll get right back to you.

And then, you know.

It was like a day later I got a call from management, you know, rattling off.

This is what it pays.

This is where we you're gonna be gone for nine weeks.

Uh huh.

Like, oh.

I'm like, okay.

That time I was working.

I've always had jobs throughout, like my, my life really.

I worked for a long time as a caterer in the entertainment bus

business and movies and television.

Mm-hmm.

I, I did that and then I was a stage manager for ano for another

studio for like, at that time.

And I'm like, I just took the gig, you know?

Yeah.

like, we'll see what work says.

Right.

Yeah.

It'd be like, I hope I still have this when I get back.

Yeah, you know.

that, that's a good, that's a good point You bring up that, you

kind of alluded to it there twice over, was about the relationships.

You know, you, you have these experiences.

In your earlier years, but then life happens, right?

And the band doesn't continue on,

yeah.

you are able to, for lack of better words, utilize those relationships

to see, okay, well what's next?

Right?

Yes.

Well, you know, if you, me and my brother had this conversation and we

were talking about how important your twenties are into development of your

future when it comes to relationships with people, because that's when you're

out there the most mingling your meeting people you're getting involved in things

that and all these people eventually will either come up or go down, right?

Mm-hmm.

Those relationships are the ones that, that over time help you the most are the

ones you make during that period of time.

Of course, you have professional relationships that come as you

get older that that help too.

But really the, that foundation of your early of that early time

period, especially in music and especially at the time period where

were fortunate enough, enough to be, I mean, to be in the Sunset Strip.

Right.

know, in a headlining act in 1983 to

Yeah.

In that, in that era especially.

mean, yeah, you, you knew everybody.

You met everybody, so, you know, but I think that's the same way

in, in any, in, in any event, that's what college is, right?

Yeah.

Yeah, it's probably pretty neat for you.

I would suppose thinking back to, okay, like you said, we

saw Motley on a Wednesday night

Yeah.

Whiskey, you know, and fast forward now and you guys are

playing there, you know, and.

I imagine sometimes it's gotta be like, my gosh, you know?

I mean seeing them, seeing, being there attending the first time and then

going, well now we play there, you know?

Yeah.

Well, it's funny, it's funny because I, I've, I've played at

that particular venue so many times.

I can't I can't even count it anymore, but.

the bands I've seen there besides Motley, I mean, I saw Alice In

Chains in their early years there.

I saw Sound Garden there.

I saw Nirvana there.

I saw Hole there.

Saw Smashing Pumpkins there.

I mean, I can go on and on.

Yeah.

and it's always a, it is an iconic, it landmark venue

Mm-hmm.

the country, much less much in the world technically.

It's like the Cavern Club of United States.

But the one the place that really knocked me out is when I played

Irvine Meadows, which is a huge 18,000 seater here, place where I saw, you

know, iron Maiden and, and Anthrax and DIO can go on and on again.

And then I played that stage with, I actually played it with BulletBoys

twice, and that blew me away.

Yeah.

up on there.

Yeah.

there's been some stages when you go through the country.

Like we played with LA Guns, we played the the Elvis, you know, old

Tropicana, uh uh, or not the Tropicana, uh, what was that called at the time?

I forget.

Oh, the Hilton, the Hilton stage when he, when he had that residency at the Hilton,

Okay.

Yeah.

and they, they, they had the little square on the stage where he stood, and

they still have a little, the, like a mirror like makeup table, like a small

one where he would, you know, get himself fixed and stuff, and every once in a

while and go back to, and, you know, you're like, wow, I, Elvis was here.

Right.

You know?

that's right.

place Called the Surf Ballroom of all things.

And that was the last place The Big Bopper Buddy Holly and Richie Valens played.

That's where they, they flew out of there and that's where they died

Yeah.

and where the famous phone call was made.

All that stuff, you know, and you play those places with that kind

of history and it's mind blowing.

Yep.

You know,

Yep.

and, and there's been a, there's been a few others that, that you go on stage,

you're like, wow, this is important.

Yeah.

place.

There's a place in Hampton called the Casino Theater Yeah.

I think it's the casino theater.

Anyway, you walk into that place and there's this big plaque on, and it

shows everybody that's played there from Black Sabbath to Led Zeppelin, Alice.

It just goes on and on

Yeah.

you're in the backstage area, and every once in a while you

just kind of have to go, wow, you know, John Bonham, walked here,

Mm-hmm.

you know, Jimmy Page walked

Mm-hmm.

right?

Mm-hmm.

all this, it does go through your head because ultimately we're fans and that's

the whole reason we do this anyway,

Yeah.

Yeah.

And you hear that a lot.

Yeah, man.

I mean, we're music fans,

Yeah.

Yeah.

And

wouldn't I listen to music every day constantly.

yeah.

Yeah.

you

Well, it's gotta be humbling to, to be in those kinds of, you know,

environments and in the walking, kind of in the footsteps of some

of these people and going, my gosh.

it, you're totally it's an honor.

And at the same time it's mind blowing.

And then, you know.

You're just happy to be there 'cause you get to go play show.

Yeah.

That's right.

That's right, that's right.

Well, so let's talk about for a minute, you know, talk about humbling

and have these conversations a lot because I think inside the industry,

a lot of people go, yeah, I get it.

But outside, like just on the fan side we talk about.

You know, there's life beyond the stage and Okay, when you're not

touring, when you're not actively making money, you've gotta make money.

And so, like you mentioned early on you've spent a career of also working

other places and doing various things, you know, you mentioned the, did you

say you were chef or you were, you were.

Yeah, location.

I worked in location catering, which

Yeah, yeah,

it's a, it's a good job.

And I mean, I cooked for, you know, Bruce Willis Korn.

I can go on and on.

yeah.

Big shows.

'Cause it wasn't just movies in, in com, it was commercials, it was videos,

it was concerts, it was all that.

Yeah.

So I did that for a while, right after I had my son when I had my son.

And that kind of changed a lot of of my

ideas about money,

Mm-hmm.

uh, once I had that kind of a responsibility.

It changed the way I looked at life.

You know, something very important about happens to you when you, I would

hope most people, when you have a kid,

Yeah, just that I gotta buckle down a little bit

you

kind of mindset or.

kind like that.

But for me, it's like all I do is I gotta take care of my kid, you know, and myself.

Right.

So it, it just changed it was weird.

I've said this a hundred times, but when was in the room when my son was

born and I had a, I physically felt something change and after that I

just, kind of, everything, some things became more important than others,

Yeah.

Yeah.

Priorities.

Priorities, man.

Yeah, I get it.

So,

it was great.

yeah, so, so on the need for just filling the gaps.

Like what, I guess because you've stayed in the industry the whole time, but

you're, you're, you'll go out and you'll, you'll fill in the gaps in various

and sundry ways and I mean, is there anything you can speak to on that side?

Just this is maybe knowing when is the time to, okay.

I need to go get a side job.

J-O-B.

Or, or I can hold out a little bit longer for this pursuit, or, you know,

can you talk about that for a minute?

I, everybody should follow their heart and follow their

dream as mu as much as you can.

Mm-hmm.

Um, I also think, know, I remember

some

Location catering Ain't no, uh, in the park.

You know, it was 18 hour days, uh, common.

So we, you know, it's like you work, you work really hard, I said, well, it enables

me to do the thing that I love to do.

Yeah.

Because if you don't have the means to take care of yourself, you're

not gonna take care of your career.

You're not gonna take care of anything else.

It, you don't you're in survival mode at that point.

You're not in progress mode.

Yeah.

So you have to take care of yourself first and when you're in panic mode all

the time trying to survive you you're.

You're in a mode of thinking that prohibits you from seeing the bigger

picture and, and you know what I mean?

So you got this tunnel vision of, oh my God, I gotta pay my rent.

Oh my God, I gotta do this.

Oh my God.

I, you know, and it's deflating and it will kill your dream.

So you, it having, you have to have some sort of.

Ability to realize that you are, you know, it's art, but you don't

have to be a starving artist.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and I think that's the main thing.

You know, there's this glamorous, starving artist.

I think it's bull**** that people use.

Well, you shouldn't be starving.

You know, you shouldn't be

Yeah.

you shouldn't be barely surviving.

You should at least take care of yourself so you can do the thing

that you love with properly, with

Yeah.

and you know, with, yeah, I'll go do that.

Right.

Right, right.

Well, and it seems like certainly since, you know, the game has changed a

little bit too since the early eighties.

And the need the ways you approach this industry, I

think has shifted a little bit.

Well, it's the I feel for people who are younger trying to develop a career

in the in, in this current climate.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

You know, it's definitely a harder time getting exposure going out there.

There's the pay to play thing.

Everybody wants money, they don't wanna

Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

and you need the, the, the thing is you need money.

Yep.

You know, you

Yep.

symbols cost money when I break 'em, sticks cost

Right.

cost money.

I mean, everything costs money.

Gas to get to the venue costs money.

So you need money,

Yeah.

Yeah,

know, and generating it is, is the, you know, that's, you gotta be really

creative nowadays, in my opinion.

and connected.

yeah, yeah.

so let's talk about that for a minute.

When I first met you, it was at a Denver show.

And you guys had the meet and greet going on.

You guys had the, you also, which I appreciated you, you

hang out at the merch table,

Yeah.

you know, and that's how we met actually was chit chatting back there.

And I always think that's awesome when bands can do that and get back there and

just hang out and visit with the fans.

Um, but you had a pretty good merch table going on there,

Yeah.

Yeah.

We, you know, you have merch is your lifeblood out there, be honest with you.

You know, you have your guarantees are basically covering

your general expense maybe.

But your merch is kind of what, you know in my situation, I'm in LA Guns,

but it's Tracii and Phil's band, right?

Tracii and Phil own the name and it's their band.

So merch wise, me and Ace are usually out at the table they

allow us to sell some of our stuff.

And that we make from that, like I, I sell the drumsticks and I'll sell

head and a few other little things.

And that helps me buy more of that stuff like drumsticks and breakables.

I call 'em breakables and 'cause I break a lot of stuff and, uh, and

that supplements my paycheck.

Mm-hmm.

so that's not coming outta my paycheck.

Mm-hmm.

coming out of that.

and that makes a huge difference at the end of the tour when you have

to re-up your supplies and you get to come back with a full paycheck

as opposed to losing, know, 15, 20% or so on, that kind of stuff.

Yeah,

So merge is a big deal.

yeah,

and, and again, you're, you're marketing yourself too.

You're out there, you're meeting people and you never know who you're gonna meet.

sure, sure.

you just don't.

Yeah, merch is a lifeblood for a lot of people.

Right.

It's, it's just a good, consistent supplement

yeah,

to what you need day-to-day.

What has been,

co Yeah,

go ahead.

exactly.

It co it covers the little things that add up,

Yeah.

you know?

It's really what it does, at least for us.

I mean, and, and.

For a band like Guns that does very well on merch.

It, it enables the machine to run,

Yeah.

um, again and again and

Mm-hmm.

as opposed to we're not gonna we need bigger guarantees, which people don't get.

I mean, the money for guarantees isn't what it used to be.

So you supplement it with merch and that's kind of how, kind of how it works now,

Okay.

know, and, and the meet and greets.

Can you speak to maybe those, getting into it, just kind of give a general

understanding of the guarantee side of things and what that can look like.

Well, basically a guarantee is what you, you, the band will get

as a, a guaranteed to do the gig.

So say we're gonna give you, know, how, however many thousands

of dollars to play the show.

Okay.

And then there's usually a clause, a sellout clause where you might get

a bump, and within that also your writer is there and, you know, various

other, you know, the, what the club is or the venue is gonna supply.

Sound guy, light guy, all that kind of stuff is all in there.

So you get at the, you get 50% deposit, goes to the agent, you get

the other half the night of the show.

Usually before you go on, you, that's another thing.

Get it before you go on stage.

Okay.

So that's important.

You know, I, there, I, there's a story I have about a friend of mine.

He had told me that he worked for Michael Schenker and Michael Schenker's

looking at his.

Phone before he goes on and then he goes, okay, we can go on now.

'cause the money showed up in his account and it, You know so many that when

people get screwed over, it's because they don't get paid before they play.

know, they, they, club owner's not gonna not pay you, you know, you haven't

gone on stage yet, he's gonna have a lot of really angry people out there.

So that's kind of the.

You know, and you're just telling 'em live up to the end of the bargain, really.

But that's how the guarantee works.

So the guarantee, you know, whether it's however many shows you have in a week,

has to cover your nut for the week.

And you got bus rental, you've got driver, you've got crew, you've got band members,

you've got gas, you got fuel, food.

That's just, you know, I'm just scratching the surface off

Right,

head.

right.

Uh, things go wrong.

You know, flat tires, uh,

Yeah.

we had a bus catch fire, so, you know, things go wrong and, you know,

you miss shows because of stuff, you know, bad weather or this or that.

So, you know, it, that's why merch is important 'cause it helps carry

you through those things that happen,

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

How about the meet and greet side?

What's your opinion on that?

I like meet and greet.

You know, I find that, that people we we're, we're pretty friendly

with 'em and like to meet people generally, like the band in and of

itself, the guys pretty congenial and you know, like meeting people.

Yeah.

So for us it's.

It's part of, uh, it's part of the gig,

Yeah.

know, it's become a part of the gig.

And that again, that money is, it goes towards the bigger nut.

All that money goes towards the bigger nut, you know, and that's and at

the end, you know what's left over.

It basically enables you know, the.

The owners to keep going and to keep doing it,

Mm-hmm.

you know, that's just how it

Mm-hmm.

You know, we're not on a retainer or anything like that, but we're

allowed to use the name for when, if we get hired to do something,

there's plenty of perks in it for us.

Right.

And then again, I can sell my own merch and stuff like that,

Yeah.

Yeah.

out great.

There's a lot of opinion.

You know, everybody we talk to is, I mean, there's a pretty

wide variety of opinion, I guess.

I guess there's really only two you can have.

Do it do 'em or don't do 'em.

Charge for 'em.

Or don't charge for 'em, you know?

Yep.

And I, you know, from a fan side, I, everybody sure they would like meet

and greets free, but from a support the artist side, you go, yeah, I would

love to pay for a meet and greet and,

put it, let's, you know what, let's put it this way.

If you wanna meet the whole band together,

mm-hmm.

that's gonna cost you.

Sure.

Sure.

And I'm talking about being a part of a band, I'm not talking about, you know,

being Bret Michaels, for instance.

Who people just wanna meet Brett.

It's one person.

if he did those for free, he'd be, there would be no show.

O

Yeah.

Okay.

And he's earned the right to to charge people for the meet

and greet, in my opinion.

Okay.

Does he need the money?

Maybe not, but that's not the point.

You know, it's all, you're still marketing yourself and you're still

putting the value on your brand,

Mm-hmm.

so I get it.

But if I am walking around and somebody wants to come and say hi and take

a picture, I'm never gonna say no.

Great.

You know, I, ACE won't say no.

Johnny won't say, no, Tracii's, I've seen him do it.

Mm-hmm.

You know, I've seen Phil do it.

So it's.

It's a different situation for the meet and greet and whether if you just

see somebody and you wanna say hi,

Right.

uh, am I gonna, and again, we're at the merch table 90% of the

time, me and me and Ace are,

Mm-hmm.

to people all the time.

So, and there's plenty of photos of us floating around together,

Yeah.

you know,

Okay.

so.

You know, that it depends on the person, it depends on the personality, and

it depends on you know, I understand people who don't think people

should pay for something like that.

And again, I, for a personal one, I don't think anybody should pay, but

to meet a whole band and get everybody together at a particular time.

I

Yeah.

Yeah.

What about you talk about marketing yourself in a way, you know, what

has that been like maybe over the years in trying to just, you know,

you have this, the relationship side.

To throughout your career, you've built these relationships and some of

them become fallbacks and some of them become next steps and so on, so forth.

But just from a, as a musician in what you do, obviously LA Guns is the big name and

marketing yourself in general how important that is that to you and what

kind of stuff do you do that helps.

You know, it is just a weird world right now with social media.

You know, I'm a, I'm old school.

I'm a, you know, everything I've ever done has been primarily

through connections and a network.

Mm-hmm.

Um, friends friends.

I don't really try to market.

Myself.

I don't look at it that way as much as I, I look at, uh, you know, if I'm

gonna, if I wanna, if I have some, call 'em casualties after a tour,

Mm-hmm.

I'll sell those, you know, and sign 'em and that kind of stuff.

But.

You know, I just feel like, you know, if you're just real and who

you are, you're kind of marketing yourself with social media nowadays.

I mean, it's just, it's just how it is.

So, you know, if you follow me, you see a bunch of food and dogs and then

Yeah.

music and, and you know, that's basically my whole social media thing

yeah,

and

yeah.

You

because I

follow, follow, follow Shawn's social media and you'll be hungry.

You'll be like that looks delicious.

Delicious.

All the time.

Posting some good looking food

Yeah,

there.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, that, that's, it's really it's, I don't really actively myself in a,

like, to reach a big, broad market.

Mm-hmm.

You

Mm-hmm.

I try to keep my relationships with my friends and I don't even

go out as much as I should to,

Mm-hmm.

and stuff, which I need to do

Mm-hmm.

should anyway, I mean.

It, I just don't and I should, like I said, I should.

There's

Yeah.

going on.

I'm in la

Yeah, you're right.

No shortage.

No shortage.

Well, what about other business opportunities that have worked

for you, such as endorsements?

Oh, well.

Endorsements are great really you're endorsing their product.

That's what you are.

You know, you're saying, this is what I play because I like it.

Mm-hmm.

And that's the only stuff that any endorsement I have

because I like and use that.

I've never gone, there's some serial endorsers that'll just take

anything they can get, you know, and I've never been into that.

Mm-hmm.

I and then I have some relationships that are more of like a, an artist deal

where you're not necessarily on a roster, but you still get the perks of being.

On a roster,

Sure.

it's kind of weird,

Mm-hmm.

kind of a weird thing to explain, but endorsements are great if you really

love the company that you're working with

Mm-hmm.

in their products

Mm-hmm.

use them, otherwise you're just, why bother?

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

and nothing's free anymore.

Okay.

Back in the eighties, people were just like, bringing you.

Stacks of symbols and stuff.

Yeah.

Everything was free.

You know, your sticks are free.

Everything was free, so.

It's not like that anymore.

Yeah.

You know, you're still buying.

I buy, I buy my symbols.

I have an agreement with Sabian.

I buy 'em, I have an artist agreement, but I buy 'em, I buy my drumsticks.

I have an, I have a, an endorsement agreement.

I buy 'em from London, a drumstick company.

I buy my heads from, Aquarion Drum Heads, you know.

And they're all artist agreements.

They're all artist deals.

So, so it, it's good, you know, and it's extremely helpful So, you know, tho,

tho those relationships are important.

Mm-hmm.

know, when, especially like I said, when you're involved with

a company you really believe in, you really love their products,

those are the ones you really want.

And for me, it's always been about breakables.

Mm-hmm.

know, it's always been about heads, symbols, and drumsticks.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Those

you find,

man.

do you find they're usually for the artist agreements, you know, are they,

you getting them wholesale basically, or are you, are you, what can, what can

those look like for those who don't know?

well they could look, you know, depending on the company, they could

look at anything 50% off retail to cost.

It just depends on your deal.

Yeah.

I've seen all kinds of, sorts of different ones,

Mm-hmm.

the bottom line on, on, on something that you use a lot is

that it saves you a lot of money

Mm-hmm.

and, and it's it's, if you like it and that's what you use.

I mean, I've been with Aquarion for 20 years and I've used

Aquarion Drumheads for 20 years.

they're very good to me.

And again, if I didn't like the heads, I wouldn't what, what good is that to me?

Yeah.

Right, right, right.

it's

That's right.

just how it is.

That's right.

How has it helped, you know, filling in the gaps?

Like when you, you just came off a tour with LA Guns, and then when we

were talking you had just gotten, you just picked up a cruise, right?

Mm-hmm.

And, and you've done those a couple times.

Yeah.

You know, the Legends, the Legends thing.

Legend.

Yeah.

Legend's of Classic Rock.

It's actually Terry Illous, Chuck Wright.

Jake Faun was a guitar player.

Chris Turbis was a keyboard player and I was filling in for Greg D'Angelo, who's

the drummer in that band, so who's also an old friend that I met while on tour at

BulletBoys he was in playing with Pearcy.

So.

You know, he called me and said, Hey, you're gonna be free for,

you wanna go on a vacation for two weeks, is basically what he told

Yes.

not kidding.

said, okay.

Yeah.

But I literally like, was gone for, I had just I was still on the road and

it was, I had a two week window of being off the road and then I was back

Mm-hmm.

Which is great.

I love doing 'em.

It's almost like a good.

Come down after a tour to do something like that.

Sure.

Because when you, when you get off tour there, there's a, it takes

a while for you to, like, do you mean I got nothing to do today?

Yeah.

it's, it's, you're, you're in a traveling circus, man, and you know, you constantly

have stuff to do you're on the road.

care if it's an off day, you got something to do,

Mm-hmm.

it's your laundry or

Yeah.

You got something to do.

Gotta fix stuff.

Mm-hmm.

but when you, when you get back you.

So that was kind of a good break.

But yeah that's one of the things that, that I'll do.

I also play in a, in Alice In Chains tribute

I like to play.

I didn't get, I didn't start doing this because I didn't wanna play, you know.

Yeah.

my drums.

I want to go out and play.

Yeah.

I do that too and various other fill in stuff.

And have no ego when it comes to, I mean, it's gotta pay something,

Right.

I have no ego when it comes to going out and doing covers or doing a,

playing with a tribute, whatever.

What do I care?

I'm playing drums.

Mm-hmm.

fun,

Mm-hmm.

Doing what you love.

Yeah.

And again, you don't know who you're gonna meet.

Yeah.

You know, don't know what it's gonna turn, anything it's gonna turn into.

Mm-hmm.

being out there is important

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

form it is,

Yeah.

out there.

Where do you think the struggle points are?

You know, you've, we've kind of talked about filling in the gaps with side work,

you know, at A JOB filling in the gaps with things like merch meet and greets,

Yeah.

doing the cruises, picking up.

What you can pick up.

Right.

Which is a lot of that is generated through relationships.

what's maybe one of the things you've seen in the industry in the last 15, 20 years?

I know.

The game has changed right?

From the eighties, nineties, really to, to now when it comes to money and musicians.

The game has changed.

And so what's some of the, I guess, one of the major struggles you see

for musicians and maybe advice that you would say, look I've seen so many

people run into this, so you can get in front of it by dot, dot, dot, whatever

that is, from your vantage point.

you know, it, it's really hard to zero in on something because, you know.

A lot of my

life in, in this industry has been winging it.

You know, there's no rule book musicians.

There's no, no how to, you know, if there was, there'd be a gazillion,

there's so many musicians out there.

Incredible, incredibly gifted musicians who will never see a big stage.

And it's all because of circumstance.

You know, I, somebody once said that making it music was 90% luck

at 10% talent and being in the right place at the right time.

Literally.

I mean, you can almo almost anybody who's ever it in music, knows about

that being in the right place at the right time situation that happened.

Now, knowing the knowing to go through the door is a whole nother situation,

Yeah.

There's a lot of people who there's opportunity and they don't,

don't walk through that door.

You know, that happens a lot.

You know, you might not realize because again, you're in survival mode.

So you don't realize that that's an opportunity because you're too busy

looking for your next $20 or whatever,

Right.

know, and opportunities comes and when it comes, you know, you

have to be open to it to see it.

Mm-hmm.

So think that's really you know?

And I think the other major.

It's it's the gold, I call it.

The golden rule is don't be a d**.

Yeah.

and realistically that's, that carries more weight than just about anything else.

You know, people, people don't wanna work with people who are jerks and who

are a***, and who, who aren't, aren't.

You know, somebody you wanna be around, you wanna, you wanna be, especially

in a band situation, for God's sakes,

Yeah.

thing you want.

I've been in those situations, so, you know, it's, I'm glad I'm at the, at the

point in my life now where I could be like, uh, I'm gonna go do something else.

You know?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's, it's a, it's a way better.

I'm happy.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

And, and that is a conversation that is had almost every show, which we've

talked about already, relationships.

Right.

But not just relationships.

It's be good to people,

Yeah.

It's, it's be good.

and why not?

Yeah.

Why not?

Be good to your, be good to your people.

Be good to your fans.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, just be decent man.

Be a nice guy.

Treat people with respect.

They'll respect you.

res respect is earned and in a minute, or you know it, well, you

know, you're respect is earned over time, and you lost in a minute.

It just by one stupid remark for some stupid reason.

Could cost you.

Who knows what you know, and there's no reason to be like that.

Anybody, you know, just be a kind person.

It doesn't hurt,

Right,

only help you,

right, right.

you know, I'm not saying, I'm not saying, know, to take s*** from anybody.

You know?

Not being a, that's not being a

Yeah.

Yeah.

You can.

There's a difference.

You can be kind and stand your ground and not get steamroll

Be

all over.

Yeah.

Yeah.

be courageous, you know, but just you don't have to be a jerk.

You don't have to be an ass to to do that.

Right, right.

So what is maybe some closing, I'm gonna, I'm gonna make you the financial

advice guy for a second here, but what's some, what's some closing,

maybe financial advice you would give musicians who are in the industry?

Maybe some don't or definitely try to as they build their career.

Well, like I said, you know, you're constantly in struggle mode for your

art, you need to find some sort of way.

To make that make your art fun.

Because if, and it's not fun when you're, when you're struggling,

Mm-hmm.

you want you need to take care of yourself first.

And, you know, look there's people who go to college and work two

jobs while they're in college to put themselves through college.

There's no reason a musician or an artist can't go work a job or two

and still do what they wanna do.

You know, it's an excuse really not to do those things.

and you have to take care of yourself.

You opportunity won't just offer you a hundred thousand dollars.

You

Yeah.

it

Yeah.

it, it's a dream.

know, and it's a beautiful dream, and I hope you obtain it at some point.

Mm-hmm.

But the fact of the matter is, you know, you have to be able to financially

support yourself to enable you to do the thing you love without stress.

If you're stressed out in trying to make it in, in, and you're.

You're not gonna perform a hundred percent, you know,

you're, something's gonna suffer.

Yeah.

Yeah.

least, at least make, at least meet your basics.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

I love that.

I love that.

Let's take a second and, tell us what you're up to, what you got coming up.

2026 is a big year ahead.

Got some things lined up.

So.

I have a couple shows this month two with LA Guns and one with my Alice

In Chains tribute called Memory Lane.

And then some point next year, I can't deve too much information, but there will

be a new LA Guns thing coming out next

Cool.

through Cleopatra.

And then we're playing, we start gigging in.

It looks like I haven't got my full calendar.

So it looks like we start sometime in April and then we're supposed

to go to the UK in November.

I know there's one show booked, a big, a big festival that we're

playing in November, so in England.

So those are some of the things that are around the bend.

It's gonna be a busy year.

Yeah.

year was insane.

It's gonna be just as insane next year.

Yeah, yeah.

You have anything coming up with Social?

No,

Yeah, Social.

Again?

The Social Disorder, doing anything.

No, you know, I'm waiting for Anders . Was supposed to send me some songs.

This all comes, Anders was Okay.

Anders was in Killer Bee.

When Killer Bee opened on the GUNZO tour.

Okay.

It was Killer Bee BulletBoys and GUNZO, that's where I met Anders.

And one day I got a call from Anders that said, Hey, can you

do a tour with us in the uk?

You know, we need somebody to, I go, yeah, I'll do it.

So I flew, they flew me out.

I went and did this tour with them, then it turned into

recording a record with them.

Then it turned into a rec recording.

The Social Disorder thing.

'cause he had other ideas

Mm-hmm.

that's how that whole thing came.

It's all because I wasn't a d*** on that tour.

Yeah, that's it.

That's it.

All right, man.

At the end of each episode, we wrap with what we call final riffs, is just a few

rapid fire questions, quick answers, just to see what you come up with.

Okay.

We'll dive through it.

You ready?

Yeah,

All right, man.

All right.

Final riffs.

What was your first concert you ever went to?

it was called the California World Music Festival, and it was two days

at the Coliseum la, California, and the headliners on the first

night was Van Halen and Aerosmith.

Van Halen 2 came out that week.

The second headliner on the second night was Ted Nugent and Cheap Trick, it was

Dream Theater, uh, or dream Police Tour.

other bands that were on it were Toto.

Toto played both days.

Cheech & Chong were the MCs Frank Marino and Mahogany Rush BoomTown

Rats, I mean it goes oh, UFO.

So, so that was my first concert.

Good.

That's a big one.

That's lots, A lot of those

Yeah,

Biggest Musical influence growing up?.

Probably my dad, you know, I mean, to be honest with you he just, because

he surrounded us with it, we were surrounded with music and he did

teach us a lot about how to listen to other players and how to, what a,

how, the importance of what a song was

Mm-hmm.

as opposed to like, jamming.

Right.

and that being solid and being in time was more important than, you know, how your

fills and your same thing with guitar.

Your rhythm was more important.

'cause if you start out learning on guitar, you start out with really good

rhythm, leads are gonna be better,

Mm.

in time.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, and, and I would say it was my dad.

Cool.

Do you remember the first album you ever bought?

Song Remains The Same.

Yes.

Yet there the Song Remains The Same.

Led Zeppelin second album was Live Bootleg by Aerosmith.

Nice.

Nice.

Vinyl.

live albums.

Yeah.

Yeah.

there was no CDs.

Yeah.

vinyl or cassette.

Cassette.

Yeah, I don't think cassette.

Yeah.

All right.

What, uh, what is a non-music hobby of yours?

Well, I cook a lot.

Yes.

That's, that goes, I say I love to go fishing.

You know, I like the outdoors.

When I was a kid, I wanted to be a forest ranger, so

Yeah.

like anything having to do with lakes and rivers and the ocean.

And

Yeah.

the, this is our cost.

My Costa Rica shirt.

This is one of my favorite places in the world to go visit.

Nice.

So that I'd say that those things right

Nice, nice.

Maybe you could set up a little cooking station next to the merch table,

I know, right?

sell

meet and

whatever.

meat and cook meat and I'll cook you dinner.

I'd,

be fun.

I'd, okay.

Yeah.

Shawn, that was great.

I appreciate it.

I appreciate the insight on relationships and I think that's a wonderful reminder.

Constant reminder the artists need, you know, coming up is just keep

building those relationships, right?

Keep being good people

Yeah.

and find your way.

That's it.

Don't give up.

All right, man.

Nope.

All right.

For everyone listening, if you want a steadier way to fund your

music, head on over to my website as well and grab your free copy of A

Musician's Guide to Infinite Banking.

It's 1024wealth.com/music.

It shows you how to keep money accessible, keep growth, compound against, smooth

out this feast or famine season.

It happens in your life, in the music career, and maybe even self-fund releases,

tours, gear on your own timeline.

So when you want to talk through, book a call with me and we'll chat and

you can do that on that page as well.

Meanwhile, subscribe on your favorite podcast app to Backstage Money.

Share this with one musician who needs to hear it, and until next time, keep

your money working and your music moving.

Shawn, thanks so much for being on the show.

Oh, you're welcome brother.

Thanks for having me.