Shownotes
When you’re just getting started, there’s nothing wrong with DIY’ing your brand assets in Canva or hiring a designer on Fiverr or Upwork. But, once you’re established and have outgrown your existing brand, it may be time to partner with a design professional.
We are one week away from revealing the new branding for this podcast, so I invited the graphic designer I’m working with, Jess Malli Mercier, to join me in talking about her approach, why she prefers helping established businesses to rebrand and how to know when it’s the right time to do so, and our experience working together.
We talked about the true essence of a brand—it's more than just a logo and colors; it’s a reflection of your core values and how people feel when they encounter your business. If you do any kind of client services work, Jess shared invaluable insights on the benefits of a collaborative approach and the value of an emotional connection.
Whether you're feeling disconnected from or bored with your current branding or simply curious about the rebranding process, this episode is packed with valuable advice and personal insights.
🔑 Key Takeaways:
- Collaborative Approach: Establishing a genuine relationship and clear communication with your designer is pivotal.
- Authenticity & Consistency: Your brand’s visual representation should authentically reflect your core values and ensure consistency across all touchpoints to create a memorable and trustworthy brand experience.
- Safety & Trust: Rebranding is a journey that requires introspection, trust, and sometimes stepping out of your comfort zone to truly represent the evolution of yourself and your business.
🎙️Mic Drop Moment:
“Be yourself. Be unique. What are the elements of you that are that are the most important and the most memorable? Let's show people that." Jess Malli Mercier
Want to connect with Jess?
https://www.jmmartistdesigner.com/
Instagram.com/jmmartistdesigner
Companion episode:
Ep # 195 “It’s Time to Rebrand The Driven Woman Entrepreneur Podcast”
The new podcast is being revealed NEXT week, so please Follow/ Subscribe to The Driven Woman Entrepreneur NOW so you don’t miss the first episode in the new name, show art, and focus!
Transcripts
H: So I'm gonna start with assuming that not everyone listening really understands, you know, all the things that a graphic designer does and especially what a graphic designer will do for rebranding a personal business like mine. So can we start with that?
G: Yes. Absolutely, it's so funny you hear the word brand kind of everywhere you know? What brand of clothes or what brand of shoes or what brand of, you know, chips are your favorite. When it comes to a business, your brand is visual, and it's also, strategic and in-depth with areas of your core values and who you are. It's the logo and the colors and the fonts, but it really is a full experience of what somebody goes through when they experience your business. So your brand is a feeling. It's the way an email is written. It's how somebody sees a social media post. I have said before that your brand is a visual handshake, it's a first impression, but it's also a lasting impression. So your brand is multi multifaceted.
H: And I think it's especially important for a personal brand, and a personal brand could be anyone from an attorney who has a solo practice. It could be a hairdresser. It could be a graphic designer. It could be a coach, a consultant, a small business, a creative services business. I've heard it said that your brand is what people say about you, not necessarily what you say about yourself and careful consideration that people should make, especially for a personal brand is how you want people to feel when they encounter any of your brand assets, your podcast, your book, your website, your social media presence. What do you think about that?
G: Yeah. Absolutely, your brand is what people say about you when you're not in the room. That's one of my favorite all time quotes because your brand is, like I said, leaving an impression on people right? It's your x factor. It's the same thing that you're gonna get when you have a conversation with somebody, when you're face to face with somebody, and you're communicating with them, they're gonna remember something about you. So your visual brand is the feeling that that somebody's gonna get when they go to your website. Is it bold and exciting? Is it supposed to energize them? Or if, you know, if you're a spa business, are you gonna, use something like hot pink and, like, electric fonts? Who knows? Like, it really depends on who you are, but also, like, what you wanna convey.
H: Do you think there's a big difference just between branding, like your initial branding and rebranding, like, in terms of the things that a business owner would want to consider, pay attention to?
G: So it's really interesting because I love working with people on rebranding because when you start a business, you're like, okay, I'm starting this thing. I have this dream, and I gotta get my LLC done or my s corp, and I gotta get QuickBooks, and I gotta do a website. Oh, shoot, before I get a website, I need a logo. I gotta have a logo. That's when, you know, you're setting off on this dream. And what you learn in the first 3 to 5 years of business is insane, and you learn, oh, well, maybe I didn't really wanna do all of the services. Maybe I didn't wanna be maybe I don't wanna be everything to everyone.
Maybe I found a real serious passion in this one place of my business, and I really wanna focus towards that. And you learn so much about yourself after that first logo that you're more better, and you're more concise, and you're more laser focused on really what it is that you wanna do and how you wanna help the world. And that's when the rebrand comes in because you know yourself better, and you know your ideal audience a lot more, and you know your services and your passion. And that's where, sure, there's a brand, and then there's a rebrand when you really truly understand and know more about your business and about yourself. So that's why, I mean, rebranding has been around for a very long time. It's not a new concept.
H: No and I think it's normal to evolve. I think it's necessary to evolve, and I think it needs to be a thoughtful process when you realize my brand has evolved, and I need to kind of bring people along. So what do you think some of the signs are that your business might be due for a rebranding? Are there certain benchmarks, or is it more the way you feel? Or what does it come down to, how do you know, girl, it's time?
G: It's time. One of the signs is that you have grown your business, and you're ready to maybe niche down. You've done the DIY thing or, you know, you've got, like, a logo, but you're using all sorts of different fonts, and you pick a different color palette and everything in your business is inconsistent. If you're like, okay, I'm gonna open up Canva, and I'm gonna do this one post about this, and then another time you choose something out. If there is, like, a major level of inconsistency in the visuals of your business or even, like, how you write things or how you speak to peep like, if there is inconsistency anywhere in your business, then it's probably time to take a deeper look.
If you're bored, if you look at everything you do, and you're like, I am just bored. I'm disgusted with everything I put together, and I spend hours trying to make everything look good, and I'm bored. If you're bored, then you're putting that energy into the world. You should be excited about the things that you're putting together. And your excitement and love and joy for the things that you're putting together for your business is gonna be conveyed. I mean, it's energy right? So you're putting this energy into the things that you're doing, and then that's going into the world and you should feel good about it.
You should feel good and excited. And so if you're not excited about your brand, if it doesn't make you feel, like, 100% yourself, then it's probably time to, you know, think about, is it time for a rebrand? And, yeah, sometimes I talked about businesses rebranding, at least refreshing, that's a whole different story. But it's if it's been, you know, 15 years and you're still using the same stuff, it's time for an update. So there's many different things that go into the thought process of is it time for me.
H: I understand that there's all different kinds of ways of working with a designer. You can hire someone off of, you know, Fiverr or Upwork or 99 designs. You never have to see them. You never have to talk to them. It can be very transactional. I need this, how much and when and it's not collaborative. It's not relational. It's transactional. And there are many people who work that way, and that's totally fine if that's what you want. But when I saw how you talked about the work that you did with your clients, it really intrigued me because I realized, oh, a lot of people say they do done with you work, but you really do. I mean, it's a relationship. It is a process. And I feel like we birthed this rebrand together. So let's talk about, like, the collaborative approach, how you approach working this way, why you work with people this way, and just kind of unpack your philosophy at your practice.
G: One of my biggest rules, I guess, as a designer is that we meet. I don't send designs through emails to for you to look at. We have a weekly meeting. I show you what I've come up with. We converse about it. It's a very open lines of communication process. And without that, I can't I have a hard time reading emails and really feeling how you feel, and I want that because your brand is important. You know, it's important to you. Your business is your baby, you know? Your business is your life. You are the master of your business. I'm the master of my business, but it's my job to help you through that process, and we do it together.
And that's just the way that it feels to me is a true collaboration because in the end of the day, you're gonna walk away and you're gonna use this brand. I'm not. You are. So what does it mean to you, and how do you wanna be perceived by people that are coming into your business? How do you take care of people? How can I help you show people that that's what they're gonna get when they're working with you?
H: We all, as business owners, especially soloists, spend an enormous amount of time doing things like ideal client exercises and, like, niche exercises and trying to nail our messaging and our positioning and our copy and all that. But actually working with you in a collaborative way where in real time, I was observing and experiencing you observing and experiencing me. And I realized that it works. It worked for us, is working for us because we're still working together, because we created a level of trust and safety. And I think I really can't emphasize that enough. It you can feel really exposed when you are working with someone in this way.
When you're saying, I want you to get to know me, I want you to hear how I see myself and how I want other people to see me. These are the emotions I want visitors to my website to have. This is how I want to move people when they encounter my voice on a podcast or an image on social media. That's really personal stuff and I think one of the universal things I see with small business owners, especially soloists, is fears about visibility, fears about putting myself out there. It's a must. No one's gonna find you. No one's gonna hire you. You are not gonna be in business if you don't put yourself out there. But having a level of trust with someone who's tasked with helping you create the visual image of who you are and how you work, like, it's intimate.
G: Yeah. And trust on both ends of the spectrum. You know, like, it's probably my number one core value of the types of relationships that I invest in and that people invest in me. Because if I don't have that trust from you, then I have a very difficult time creating with and for you. But at the same time, I need to let people know that when they're working with me and they're in this vulnerable place, that they're in an incredible place of trust with me. You can trust me. You can be honest with me. You can tell me 100% how you really feel, and it's okay because it's not in the end, it's not about me.
I'm just here to help you see the best version of yourself. And that's another reason why it's really important to work with somebody else in this capacity because as humans, we all wanna it's much more difficult to push yourself into a place of discomfort, and I push people a little bit with stylistic choices or maybe colors that are a little bit you're like, oh, I don't know if I but it's like, I don't know if I can pull off that red dress with sparkles. And I go, yeah, you can, you know? Like, I'm gonna push you a little bit because we all wanna sit in this world of pretty. Like, let's just let's just let's just be pretty and demure and mindful and easily digested, you know?
Like, I just wanna be easily digested and not offensive. But are you gonna get the absolute ideal clients that you wanna work with by resting on pretty? Like, be yourself, be unique, and what are those elements of you that are the most important and that are the most memorable? Let's show people that. Let's show true authenticity, and that's kind of how I love to help people is pushing people a little bit outside of their comfort zone, and then seeing how they feel about it. And if it's too much, then we can take it back. It's okay. We can even that out. It's all about balance, but you're not gonna sit there by yourself, especially if you're not a designer, and you're gonna go, okay. I'm just gonna do the thing that's simple and easy, and I'm here to push you.
H: This is so important. It's reminding me of so many different things. Like, just thinking about why we go to a group fitness class instead of just working out in our spare room with some app on our iPad. Because, like, if I'm in the presence of other people, I am not going to Slack. I will Slack all day long when I'm by myself and there's nobody there because it's more comfortable right? I will willingly go into the discomfort when it's a collaborative experience and you're absolutely right. Like, you did a very thorough process of extracting, not just you did the things I expected, and then you did things I didn't expect. So the expected stuff is like, Diann, show me some examples of some websites that you find attractive and tell me why. What do you find attractive about them?
Since we rebranded the podcast, I showed you examples of some other podcast covers and why I and said not only that I like them, what I liked about them. So you were sort of getting to know my perspective, and I expected that. But you also really went into my values and into what really matters to me into, the emotions of when I'm working with a just right fit client for me, how does that make me feel? When I get feedback from people who say, as soon as I saw this image of you, I knew you were the person I wanted to work with. Like, it's getting us to talk about ourself in a way that doesn't feel narcissistic, it doesn't feel arrogant, it doesn't feel self absorbed. It's like, no like, you get to take control of the narrative.
G: You need a mirror when you're going through something that's so personal. In my experience and with many, many, many people I know, even if you're just going through something in your life, like, just take your life, not your business. Like, don't you wanna talk to somebody about it? And if you're the kind of person that's an internal processor, doesn't it kinda feel overwhelming a little bit? Like, it's just a really good idea to have somebody to bounce ideas off of. And not only that, the pressure is not on you to come up with all of the ideas.
You have somebody that's a professional that does this you know? It's like yeah, it took me a long time to hire out things in my business, but do I wanna be a bookkeeper? Is that the thing that I'm best at? No. And the best thing that I ever did was hire myself. That was the first thing that I did that I hired out, and I was like, oh, this is awesome. I should have done this way, way earlier. So but, yeah, I mean, everybody needs a mirror sometimes, and I'm happy to be that for you.
H: It's funny that you mentioned the bookkeeping because I think that's the thing that most people will very eagerly, very willingly like, they cannot wait to hand that off. And the same works with me and many of the business owners I've worked with. However, I don't see that so much with branding and graphic design. And part of it is and by the way, I love Canva. I freaking love Canva. I think it's fantastic, but it does sort of render the impression that everybody is now a graphic designer, that everybody can be a graphic designer because it's so easy. Plenty of people use the free version so they don't even have to invest in it. There are so many people out there that are creating and selling templates.
And so many people who can just go in there and basically take a template or just copy their favorite influencer or marketing guru and call it a day and think, why wouldn't that be good enough? Then if you're just getting started and you don't have 2 shekels to rub together, I totally get it. Do not hire someone like Jess because you're not ready yet. You're not ready yet financially. You're not ready as a business owner. But I do think this whole Canva situation, it sort of creates the impression that we're all designers now, or we can be, or we should be, that it's easy. It's fast. It's not really a skill or even a talent. Anybody can do it.
And I think because that impression seems to be so ubiquitous that it can be really, really difficult for someone to know how to accurately evaluate and assess the true value of working with a professional. You are the first branding professional I have worked with because up until recently, I thought I could do this. And it's I don't even consider myself creative, and I call that the Canva effect. Because it's kind of like just because you can doesn't mean you should. And I had convinced myself that what I had done on my own was good enough until I realized, no, no. It's not, it really isn't.
G: It's so interesting because I'm not a Canva hater in any way, shape, or form. I was for a little bit. I had a little chip on my shoulder, and I was like, I'm just doing Adobe, and I'm how dare they? But I think it's a really important tool. I actually ended up when I'm working on branding and logo creation, I use Adobe. That because it's hands down. If you're especially with vector logos, it's very important. I can't say that enough. Like, if you're creating a logo, it needs to be in vector format.
Adobe is the industry standard. That's a top that the tech talk is for a whole different day. But I actually use Canva for my own stuff too. A, it's just super quick. It's easily accessible. I can be on like, out and about and, like, get inspiration when I'm having coffee or something, and I can put a design together on my phone. And part of the reason why I actually delved into Canva was because I wanted to make my business and what how I helped my clients more accessible for them right? But when it comes to brand building and going into Canva's templates, and choosing only their fonts, I mean, let's just talk one second about typography right?
So you're gonna go into Canva, and you're gonna use that very short, you know, list of typography. There are so many other fonts out there, and there is something that you can choose that, like, other people don't have you know? Like, your brand should be individual and unique. And if you're going in, and you're typing in, you know, like this kind of template, and you're in the top nine, how many other people have used that? That's the thing about Canva is it's a tool to use once you've uploaded your elements and your brand into it, and it makes it accessible to use all of those elements over and over again, or, like, the resizing option.
Like, oh, okay, I've got this in a in a 10 80 by 10 80, but I need it in a story size. Like, hey, how quickly does it, you know, resize things? I mean, and then you still have to go in and tweak it. Like, it's not that simple. But accessibility is great, but your brand should still be unique. Canva is a tool. It's not a creative place of being able to show who you are. And that's why I've had people tell me, like, oh, you know, everybody should have multiple streams of income. Jess, why don't you sell templates and I'm like, because that's the antithesis of what I believe in. Canva is a is a great tool, but Canva does not make a designer.
H: Nope and you can play 1 on TV, but you will not be 1. And by the way, I'm really glad you brought up typography because I wanna next talk about a couple of different things. 1 is couple of the things that that happened during our process of working together to create my new brand and maybe a couple of little challenges too. But one thing that we both, like, totally geeked out on, and I honestly didn't even know I had it in me. I was like, girl like, I listen, let me be clear.
I know I can be obsessive AF. I just didn't think I was gonna be able to nerd out and obsess with you in one of our recorded meetings about the fonts that you selected for me. And I instantly fell in love with and I instantly realized why they worked together and how I would use each one of them, but especially the script font. We were both squealing with delight, and sharing that because you found it and you were like, I'm so excited to share this with her. And the moment I laid eyes on it, it was like love at first sight. It was so positive.
G: So this this font, I have had in my pocket because I saw it, I think I was actually I was searching for another client, months ago. And when I saw this font for the first the script font for the first time, I was like, oh, she's special and so I had it in my pocket. Like, there are certain fonts that I'm just like, oh, I'm like, this is a special one. I'm just gonna put this in my pocket and, like, save it. And I when we started working together, and I pulled it up, and it was almost like I'm not normally nervous to show typography to people like, I'm usually excited, like, oh, okay. And I have got options and whatever, but I was, like, so nervous because I knew deep in my soul that this was the one for you, and I was nervous about your reaction to it. And when you loved it as much as I did, I was like, oh my gosh. I was so excited like, I've got, like, tears in my eyes over like, I'm talk about nerding out.
H: But you know what? It yes, we're talking about nerding out over typography. And if you cannot relate, just fast forward. There's plenty of other good stuff in this interview. But I think beyond that, I think what it really, for me, really reflects, Jess, was that, and now I'm gonna cry. It's that you found this font. You fell in love with it. You had to have it because you knew sooner or later, you were gonna find someone that it was just perfect for. And, so when you brought back the palette of 5 colors, I wanted to fall in love with it instantly. And as I'm recalling now, Jess, you showed me the colors before you showed me the fonts. And yeah because it's the way in the document and the way you were sharing in real time in our Zoom call. But I saw the colors, and my first reaction wasn't like I love him or I hate him.
It was, I don't know how I feel. And I would say, you know, was it a challenge in our relationship? Was it a challenge in the work? No, but here's the thing. Because we have the relationship that we've created, I wanted to love it. I had that feeling like you did about sharing the typography. Like, I want her to love it. I wanted to love it for all the reasons. I wanted to love it because, hey, if you nail it first time, ba bam, we can move on and we can start creating instantly because I have a need for speed and a need for forward momentum. And, you know, I like things to happen fast for all the reasons. But it was like, it was very uncomfortable for me Jess to not know how I felt. And here I am with my, you know, I have my rejection sensitivity, and I'm worrying about you maybe having rejection sensitivity. And it's like, no, we have the trust.
We have the respect. We have the safety. That means I can take the time to think, why am I uncertain? I am definitely not a person who spends a lot of time being uncertain and it was like, we just took that time and figured it out. And your calmness through that process and your absolute neutral, Like, I didn't feel like I needed to figure it out to make you happy or to not make you angry. And I know people who say I can't work with a designer because the last one I hired got so butt hurt when I didn't fall madly in love with their designs that I spent the rest of the time trying to do damage control and I'm like, oh, so awkward but I totally get it.
G: Yeah. You know, it's really interesting. It has been a personal challenge of mine not working with this the what you were talking about was not a challenge for me. It's an opportunity for things to get better. But for me, as little you know, when I first started my business, I would make the thing, and I would show the person and if they wouldn't like it, I would take it personally right? There's a difference between being an artist and a designer right? I love making art, doing my paintings, doing my journaling, because that's for me, and that's an expression of my soul onto a canvas or my soul onto a page.
I'm not doing that for anybody else. I'm doing that for me. When I'm doing design and branding, and I'm working with a company, my ego gets completely taken out of the process. Do I have an opinion? Absolutely, do I feel strongly sometimes that somebody's making the wrong decision? Yes, but when it really comes down to it, I'm here to help you, and it's your business. I mean, I used to be that person that got a little butt hurt, like, meh. So people make decision in totally different ways. So, yes, I am seeing your first impression of a color palette or a logo or a font or whatever. And I'm getting your first impression, and I'm getting that first feedback, but that doesn't mean that I'm not gonna also I send it to you afterwards so that you can sit with it. And if you want to, you know, share it with a trusted adviser or with somebody, your assistant or whoever you want to.
It's your business. You can do what you want. But I like to let people know firsthand. These are the reasons why I chose this color palette. This is what my perspective is as a designer that, you know, this color is gonna help people feel this way about you. This typography goes together because of this, and this is what this typography is going to tell people about you visually first when they see it before they actually read the words. So I like to have that firsthand impression 100%, but then if you need more time, I'm not like, no, make a decision. Like, I'm gonna give you the space, obviously, but I think that seeing things firsthand and the communicating in that process and feeling your energy, and you hearing me tell you my whys and my hows, is the most important part of my process.
H: And somebody like me who's extremely analytical and who can be impulsive and has lots of experience doing things impulsively and later thinking, oh my god, Diann, what were you thinking? Oh, actually, you weren't. I really appreciated that you said, okay. These are the colors. These are the fonts. These are the logos based on all the things that you've told me, all the things that you've shared with me, all the things we've discussed together. And while you're kind of digesting your first impression and you're observing that impression, you're also kind of narrating, and this is why. Because I think it really helps, like, both sides of the brain, figure out, is this the right thing or not? You've got the emotional reaction. You've got the visual impression.
But then there's a, you're very strategic. And I think that's also, I think, one of the reasons why I have appreciated working with you, getting to know you so much because you're creative and intuitive and you really trust your own intuitions, but you're also analytical and strategic. And I think that's really helpful for business owners, especially those who don't consider themselves creative, who don't really understand the creative process. And that's also part of the reason why so many people don't hire a designer at the right time or soon enough or at all, because they don't really understand.
It's not just you having fun playing with colors and, you know, and getting paid for it. It's like you put a lot of time and energy and effort and thought into why this for them. Something I'm wondering about, because we're talking so much about this relational collaborative approach as opposed to what I refer to as a transactional approach, where you might just buy something from a designer that you never meet outside of budget. Are there people for whom working with someone like you working in a collaborative way, working with someone who actually develops a relationship as part of creating a unique individual standout brand. Are there people that this is definitely not for?
G: Like, there are so many designers out there, and I really do feel like there is a perfect designer for every type of person. And I may not be it for you, and that's totally okay. Like, I wish you the best and I hope that even if I'm, you know, my kind of process and my kind of design may not be your thing. I hope that you do work with a professional who's passionate about the type of design that they do or has a different process than me. Because everybody needs that mirror, and the pressure to do all of this alone is a lot.
H: So well said just if somebody's thinking, you know what, I appreciate the way you've described how you work with someone. I appreciate, the thoughtfulness of it and the relationship aspect of it. I don't even remember if you describe I think you do. And you describe yourself this way on your website. But other than someone coming right out and saying, I'm a designer and artist who works with clients in a collaborative process. Let me explain what that looks like. What are the other cues or clues that that do you need to look for someone who specifically says this is how I work, or are there other ways that you might realize, oh, that it this is that kind of person. This is what I'm gonna get if I hire them.
G: Yeah. I think that a huge, I think that the first, thing that you should do when you're looking for a designer is to visit their website and to look at the work that they've done. Look at their storytelling, you know, look at their social media. How are they speaking about their clients? How are they speaking about their work? Does their work appeal to you? And then and then meet a couple of different designers. Schedule a discovery call, meet with a couple of people and see how it feels to work with them. Are you a person that's totally okay with working with, you know, there's lots of talented people out there. I have had clients come to me after they've worked with a larger, firm, and everything was done via email. And they it was I've seen email threads and things getting lost in email and not understanding and edits and all sorts of things just in this, like, long massive email thread.
If that's something that it like, if that doesn't bother you, if you don't wanna be on a weekly video meeting, if that's something that you are don't find problematic at all, then, you know, meet somebody like that. There's but I do think that you should meet look at what's out there, schedule a discovery call, talk to the person, look at their work, and I'm gonna bring it up one more time. Ask what tools they use, ask about, you know, what tools or softwares do you design with, and deliverables. Deliverables are very important. You know, what type what logo files are you gonna get? How are they organized? You know, know what you're getting in the end, is also incredibly important when talking to a designer.
H: Yeah. No, that totally makes sense. And I'm actually also thinking regardless of how the person describes what they work, how they work, I'm realizing that because I do this myself, you can't hire me without meeting me first. It's not an option.
G: No. This is just not for me. But this works for me, and, and the clients that do work with me, are left with a feeling of comfort and that makes me feel really proud, you know, that that my clients feel like they're being taken care of the entire time that we're working together.
H: I'm so glad you were here today, my friend. I'm so glad we got a chance to share how you work and how you know, just because you have Canva, you're not a designer. And if you are ready to rebrand, like, it's truly a transformation of your professional identity. I can think of no better way than the collaborative approach and no other person than I would rather have done it with than you, so thank you.
G: Thank you so much. I'm so grateful to, have been part of this process with you. It's been an absolute pleasure, and I'm so excited for the world to see the new brand.
H: The big reveal coming soon.
