How do trail runners survive in cities? Josh Rosenthal and Tommy Lewis dive into the challenges and rewards of maintaining a running lifestyle in urban environments.

They discuss the unique rhythms of road running compared to trail running, exploring how each offers different forms of joy and fulfillment. Tommy shares his journey from trail enthusiast to urban runner, emphasizing the importance of redefining what it means to be a runner beyond traditional races like marathons.

Together, they highlight the beauty of finding community, appreciating the outdoors, and embracing the daily practice of running, regardless of the terrain or distance.

Tommy Lewis took the dive and left his dayjob to lean all the way in on ThatsRunnable.com. He writes a brilliant weekly newlsetter and speaks to heart of runners like few others can.

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Call the Borderlands Hotline - RUNMORE649 That's (786)667-3649. Leave a voice message I can play in a future podcast. We're looking for hot takes, disagreement, agreement, anger, happiness, indifference, etc.

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Devil's Gulch 100 miler, 50 miler, 13.1 miles. Wenatchee, WA - July 13, 2025

Salt Lake Footshills Trail Races. Salt Lake City, UT - May 31, 2025

VKTRY Insoles - I wear these every run, 20% off.

PATH Projects - My favorite running shorts, Borderlands10 for 10% off.

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Takeaways:

• Finding joy in running is about defining it on your own terms, not others'.
• The community aspect of running can enhance the experience, regardless of the environment.
• Many runners mistakenly believe they must run marathons to be considered legitimate runners.
• Incorporating variety in training, such as mixing road and trail runs, is crucial.
• Embracing the daily practice of running fosters a lifelong love for the sport.

Borderlands.

Somehow we're still not learning Borderlands.

We still suck at running.

Welcome to the Borderlands Trail and Ultra Running podcast.

My name is Josh Rosenthal.

I'm the host.

I'm the founder.

Today I'm welcoming Tommy Lewis.

He's one of my favorites.

When I say that Borderlands is the heart of trail running, I think Tommy really embodies what I'm trying to do here more than I do at times.

He is very much for the soul and the way he speaks, he speaks to the soul, he speaks from the soul.

He.

He connects really well with people who are aspiring to start running.

He's a net good for the sport by a long shot.

And I really love anytime I get to talk to him on the podcast or offline.

In this episode, we talk about when the miles that you need aren't necessarily the miles that you want, or when the miles that you have in front of you aren't necessarily the miles that you want.

He lives in London, I live in Paris.

But we both really love the trail.

We really miss it.

And in this episode we talk about, hey, we can't get to it.

So how are we going to be happy?

What are we going to do to.

To serve ourselves and to put ourselves in that great mental spot of being happy with what's in front of us?

I am trying to get your feedback more often and I want this to be more like a radio show.

So I have a hotline now.

That hotline is Runmore643.

That's Runmore643.

I'm going to call and leave a message about anything.

We use them, especially on bad runners.

Take with Wolf Runner, but anything when I thought it'd be fun.

If you want to call because you're looking for a new trail shoe and you want to ask Taylor Bodine of Believing the run and you want to talk about what you're looking for in a shoe and he can give you one.

You can leave a message about anything.

Just know that if you leave the message, I want it to be less than one minute.

And once you record it, it belongs to me and I will put it on the air, most likely.

Also, Devil's Gulch is in July and I'm super stoked on that.

And I hope that you run the 100 mile, the 50 miler, or the half marathon.

It's hot as hell, it's hard as hell, and it's what I think heaven would be like.

It is Just a beautiful and perfect American trail race.

On January 18th in Salt Lake City, I'm doing a run with Billy Yang, which is really a dream come true for me.

We're partnering up with path projects, and we're doing the speedboat 5k, just a fun group run in the foothills of Salt Lake.

I'm flying back from Paris just for that run.

I'll only be in Salt Lake for 36 hours, and we'll do a run together, and then we're gonna do a live podcast before an audience and a Q and A.

So if you are in Salt Lake or you want to be on that day, Saturday, January 18th, I've got details to register for that.

Soon it will all be free.

In order to come to the podcast, though, you have to be signed up for the Salt Lake Foothills Trawl Races, and that's how you'll get entrance into the live recording.

I imagine that seats will be filled up by those, but if not, it will be open to the public once they've all had a chance.

Okay, don't Forget, run more 643.

Call me.

Text.

I prefer the call.

Leave a message.

And I want to put you on the podcast.

All right, here's my friend Tommy and I talking about life and the big smoke, the big city.

Enjoy.

It's too amazing.

It's too damn cold to welcome.

I'm a trail runner, I promise, but I don't run on the trails anymore, and that hurts my heart.

Like, legitimately.

It hurts because I just love the dirt so much.

I love the open air.

I love unfocusing my eyes on really, like, vast landscapes.

And I love having every excuse in the world or no excuse at all to just stop because nobody can see me.

I want to walk up a climb, and I want to do all these sort of things.

Like, this is trail running to me.

Like, it's.

It's solitary to a degree, or it's volunteer.

You have to.

You have to be intentional for it to be with somebody, and I like that also.

But now my life is on the road, and I'm running on the road.

I'm in Paris.

I'm not complaining.

This is my dream come true to get to live here for a year.

But I miss the desert and I miss the mountains so much.

And they have something over here that they call forest running, which is just, like, flat dirt running.

And that's really cool when I can get to a forest, but I can rarely get to a forest even.

So, my friend today, Tommy, lives in London, and I Would say maybe he's not, he's not going to mope around about it like I do.

But he's got this similar thing.

He runs in a city, but he's also a trail runner.

He's run some really big trail races, he's run some road races.

He's got a hundred miler in his sights in America, which is pretty cool.

So without any further ado, this is my friend Tommy.

Welcome back, Tommy.

Good to be here.

So you're a London runner, huh?

What's that like?

London is, London is great in many ways and it's awful in many ways as well.

All right, yeah, I'm sold.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I always say I've got a love hate relationship with London because it's, it's where I, it's where I started my career.

It's brought me so much from that perspective and it's a lot of fun.

You know, the best artists come through London.

You know, you have the best of everything.

Like anything you want, you get it.

Like it's here in London.

And so it's a great city, one of the greatest cities in the world.

And in terms of its running, it's one of the best cities to run in.

I guess it has, in my opinion, the best city parks of any capital city in the world.

Like, we are spoiled here.

Whether you're, you know, in the north of London like me, and you've got Finsbury park or Hampstead Heath or whether you're further south or further west and you've got, you know, you've got Regents park up here in the northwest and then your Hyde park which is more central.

So many great parks and great environments and especially like this time of year, colorful trees.

You know, it is objectively good looking, but at the same time it's still a concrete jungle.

And for many people who don't necessarily live right next to a park, yeah, you're still, it's, it's densely populated.

Like it's an insane number of people are here.

So if you're in a bad mood, you're constantly trying to kind of pedestrian slalom and that's not everyone's favorite thing to do.

Oh no.

So, yeah, I've got a love hate relationship with it.

You know, I've been running here now for eight years and I've probably done thousands of laps of Victoria park in East London.

But yeah, I do, I do sort of sometimes just get a bit bored of the same routes and the same pavement pounding.

For sure, yeah.

I mean, I talked to a really notable American runner Jacob P.

And I've.

And I've repeated this a lot because it really helped me because he's a known.

He's known as an ultra trail runner.

He's also known as a great road marathoner.

And he said on the road there's, there's a rhythm that's available only to road runners, just like there's a rhythm only available to trail runners that road runners can't access.

And I like that, just thinking, hey, there's something beautiful to be found in road running.

Because when we talk about road running, oftentimes we're talking about, like a type of ambition that's different than the type of ambition on the trail.

To me, that's the ambition on the trail is a very, like, romantic ambition.

It brings out this romantic side of me.

Road is bringing out this determined, like, focused.

I'm going to do something and I'm going to go at this pace and, and, and all that.

And I feel like that's.

That's the hard part is, yeah, you're dodging the people.

You get out on the road, you, even if you've got a great place to run, like along the sand here is a really great place to run, but you still have to get there.

And you go through all the people and you're running on the road.

And Paris, walking, you know, it's really narrow sidewalk, so you're bouncing off the sidewalk into traffic and back in just a lot.

And it's new to me.

So how do you find.

In London, how do you.

How do you find that rhythm?

The thing that Jacob Pusey talked about is that rhythm that's available, that one foot in front of the other, that sort of mindless, meditative running.

Do you.

Are you able to achieve that or find that in the big city?

Yeah, I would have to agree with him there about road running.

Like I always am.

I've always been far more attracted to trail running for all the reasons you list.

Like, it just, it's just more interesting, great scenery.

It's, you know, mixed terrain.

You can approach it however you want.

And I guess there's more variety, which is more interesting to me.

But there is some beauty in road running and, yeah, finding that rhythm.

You know, I, I do think there's a.

There's a unique flow state that can be found in road running.

And I wouldn't say you can't.

You definitely.

It's not that I'm saying you can't find that in trail running.

That would be stupid to say, but it's different, you know, it's a different kind of flow.

And I quite like, you know, I quite like finding that rhythm.

If you're doing sort of loops of a park, you can really find that rhythm.

Like if I go, if I take.

One of my favorite parts to run around in London is.

It's like the East London running mecca.

It's Victoria Park.

Yeah.

And it's just got nice wide pavements.

You know, you can always anticipate where people are going to go.

You're never really having to dodge too much.

And also around those parks you could, there's, there's a plan.

There's plenty of little trails that you can sort of dart into.

And so you do have urban trails.

They do exist if you find them in the right places.

And you also sort of.

There is joy in the speed of running over the roads.

So.

Yeah, to answer your question, I mean, I guess I, I sort of plug in.

You know.

One of the biggest issues I have in London is it's just so loud.

The sirens in London are so loud.

I'm pretty sure they're louder than in Paris.

I think Paris has a softer siren.

I don't know.

Really?

Okay.

Yeah.

Because they echo through the.

But the buildings aren't very tall here, so maybe the echo isn't as.

Obnoxious.

Yeah, yeah.

Obnoxious.

Yeah.

Sometimes I feel bad because I'm getting like annoyed at these sirens and all they're doing is saving lives.

Yeah.

If you think about the bigger picture, you're a real asshole for that.

I know.

Me too.

But yeah, I think I plug in.

So I put my AirPods in, put them in noise cancellation.

Usually it's not so bad.

You know, you can kind of get rid of the sound.

And so there is joy definitely to be found in running in the city.

And I think especially in London we are spoiled for good.

For good.

Like parks.

And I think it's a case for me it's a case of like mindfulness, like whenever I, whenever I notice anything that is good looking, even if I'm running down, you know, a street and the houses are beautiful.

I have some, you know, appreciation for the architecture of the houses and the trees and the sort of seasonal that, you know, the time we're in at the moment with the trees still on the le.

The leaves still on the trees and on the floor and it's, it's all very pretty but it's not quite mountains.

Right.

But you, you sort of take what you can and for me it's, it's like take finding those new routes.

Finding those new parks can bring some joy for sure.

How far is your front door to the park, like to your closest park?

I don't.

Is that Victoria, like the door to that place where you can find that rhythm?

What's that distance?

I actually have a really.

I have a small park really close to me, Cliss Old Park.

But it is very small, so I tend to just do like one loop of that before getting to another park.

And then I have Finsbury park, which is.

It's got a bit of undulation.

It's a little bit better.

That's about 2k away.

And then Victoria park, if I'm doing like a 15 loop, 15k loop, I'll go to Victoria Park.

And then one beautiful place that we have is Hampstead Heath.

And Hampstead Heath is one of these places where when you're in it, you really just don't feel like you're in the city.

That's the hope.

Yeah.

Which is great.

So, you know, I'm sort of spoiled in that sense.

But you still are dealing with the fact that you got to get there, so you got to find different routes to get there.

And I think, you know, when.

When you've been doing it so much, when you run every day in the city, you can find those paths for sure.

And you find, you know, you find pleasure in those.

In those routes to get there, I guess.

How do you think about breathing in the big city?

I mean, in terms of the quality of air.

Yeah.

Just being what it is, you know, like, do you.

Do you have any sense?

Do you feel it?

I don't necessarily feel it unless I'm looking for it.

Unless I'm feeling down about missing my.

My mountain running.

But I mean, objectively, it's worse.

I mean, just, you know, it just is.

But do you have any.

Are you have any awareness for that?

Does it.

Do you feel it?

I don't necessarily feel it.

Like, I don't think that.

Yeah, I don't think that I feel it.

But I have.

I have seen stats on, you know, air quality and sort of saying that you're better off not going for a run than going for a run, given the bat, how bad the air quality is.

Have you ever taken that advice?

I've never taken that.

I have.

Not even once in Salt Lake City.

Sometimes would have the worst air quality in the world on a given day because we get this thing called an inversion and the mountains come in and cover it.

I have never once not said, okay, I have time to run.

And I'm not going to because the air quality, I just figure it'll get me later when my quality of life already sucks at the end of my life.

What's it going to do?

Take off a week?

Yeah.

I think there are more benefits found in running than breathing high quality air for sure.

But yeah, I'm always, I'm, I'm, I'm a bit like you.

I can kind of relate in some senses too, that just really missing that experience of being out on the trails.

Yeah.

And for me, I always say that everything I'm doing in the city is in, is in preparation for what I really truly love.

Yeah.

And so, you know, one of the biggest challenges as, you know, a flatlander or like a big city guy is actually getting that training, suitable training for the mountains.

And so a lot of the kind of mountain specific training I'm doing is in the gym, on the stepper or.

It's really sort of repetitive hill reps or strength, you know, strength work in the gym.

It's stuff that isn't necessarily.

Doesn't look like you're kind of mountain prepping.

Yeah.

But it just takes a different.

I guess it just takes a different identity in some ways.

But that drives me.

One of the potential upsides to city running is if you are looking for community, you're more likely to find someone who runs your pace and you know, your time of day and all of that sort of stuff.

Are you a run club kind of guy?

Do you have anybody that you get out with?

Are you pretty solo?

I'm pretty solo myself, but I do speak to people who are not.

I'm the same.

I love, I love the idea of a solid run club, but by the time I'm able to run, I'm pretty, I'm pretty maxed as an introvert.

And that's why I like city running, because mountain running, you know, I'm also a bit of a, of what we might call in America a Freddy cat.

I get scared pretty easily by, by wildlife.

Yeah.

But here in the city, that's one of the things I like about density.

Density is.

And you know, rural west Texas density was looked at as terrifying, but density is actually a means of safety to some degree as well.

And so if there's a thousand people running along the sand at any given time, that, that, you know, feels relatively safe.

I like that component, I guess.

Yeah.

I mean there is, there are actually a huge amount of benefits when it comes to city running.

You know, we can talk about the lower air quality or you know, it's more.

It's more boring or whatever.

But the reality is, when you're running in a city, if you're doing, for example, if you're doing a long run, I actually can get away with doing a really long distance without taking anything with me other than a phone.

Right.

Because I can stop off at a supermarket if I need fueling or.

You're always going to have access to something.

You're never in the wilderness.

So in terms of danger in that sense, like if you go over on your ankle, you can just take a bus home.

You're never sort of too far away from a rendezvous or a fuel stop.

So you sort of have aid stations everywhere.

So that's one benefit I always see.

If I'm going on a long run on a Sunday, I don't necessarily need to take all that much with me because I've got it there accessible.

And then the other benefit, which I might not utilize all that much but is real for people, is being able to run with people.

There are apps out there that you can kind of use, not to name.

One, but there's one that's.

That.

There's one that's in development that's coming full version end of this year, early next year, called Wilder.

Go ahead.

But yeah, there are.

There are plenty of things that, whether it's run clubs or anything, you can definitely find people.

I was actually speaking to someone the other day who moved to, like, the outskirts of Wales, really beautiful place on the border of Wales.

And his whole idea was that he'd gain access to the trails and he'd be able to find his people there.

But the reality was that his people were all, you know, either 10 miles from him or 15, 20 miles from him.

And so actually meeting up with those people required, like, way more logistics.

Right.

And the reality was that although he wanted to be out on the trails, he just ended up being completely lonely.

And, you know, it doesn't actually.

Look.

It doesn't actually.

The reality of it isn't actually as cool as he thought it would be because he just doesn't have that kind of connection with others as frequently as he used to in the city.

Yeah.

So I think we take those sort of things for granted.

For sure.

Yeah.

I mean, all right.

So trying to stay on this positive.

For me, it's easy because I've spent, you know, 15 years thinking about what the trail means to the human spirit, you know, and being out there and what I love so much about it.

You know, let's go to this human Spirit level of like.

And what I mean by that is maybe something that aids in you feeling more like a whole human.

Like a real human connected to the world on a larger level where that's meaningful.

Where's the romance on the road for you?

Have you found it?

Like, you know, I talk about trail feels romantic, road feels like a practical thing.

Like, and I'm.

If I'm looking for that romance, like, where can you find it?

It's a hard one because I'm the same as you.

Like, all my.

All my romance comes from running the trails, being properly in the outdoors.

But, yeah, I often refer to it as sky time.

So, like, the reality is, yeah, you're in the outdoors and you are.

You know, if you're in the mountains, it's fresher air, it's proper outdoors.

But, yeah, you're not.

You're not inside.

If you're in the city, you're still.

You're still outside, you're still under the sky.

And so if you can get that sky time, there's still just as much value in getting that sky time in any way.

Yes.

As there is running through the elements elsewhere.

So, like, I think of it as if I'm running in London.

The rain's pouring, you know, I've got some sky time, I'm running through nature, I'm still outside, I'm still doing that.

And so it's still accessible to me in some way.

Yeah.

But it might not feel exactly the same as running on the trails and be really feeling like you're in the wilderness.

So I find there's.

There is some romance in.

In the sense that I can still get outside, I can still run around these parks and feel like I'm in the fresh air, as.

Even though it's not as fresh as it could be.

But we sort of take what we can.

Not everyone's in a position to be in the trails all the time.

Actually, very few people are.

You know, if you're thinking about.

Yeah, even if you're not in a city, you might not necessarily be in the trails.

Like, these are two extremes we're talking about.

And so you have to just take what you can and do what you can with what you've got.

And so I think, like, I can fall into the trap of endlessly complaining about the fact that I'm not out there in the trails.

It's there for me when I want it to be, if I want to take a trip out and do it.

But what do I have at my.

At my disposal right now.

And I.

I still have sky time.

I still have good parks.

I still have the sort of camaraderie of good friends to run with and all that sort of stuff.

So it's definitely positives to be taken.

Is.

Is London anything like Paris?

I think it may be even more so in terms of, like, how many sunny days you get in a given year.

Is it.

Is it pretty cloudy there?

Pretty cloudy.

I am looking at some blue sky right now.

I am, too.

I was wondering if we're both.

I mean, I know we're like, what, a couple hours away from each other right now, but I'm seeing blue skies, and I'm like, I'm itching to get out in them.

So that sky time is a wonderful perspective that regardless of, you know, what's surrounding me up to even, you know, up to 400ft, whatever, there's a skyscraper above that is that same sky that's with me out there.

And like, to tap into that is.

I like that.

That's a great perspective.

Yeah.

I used to use it at work as well.

You know, stuck behind the desk, and instead of saying, hey, you want to go get a coffee?

Or whatever, I'd say, you know, skytime.

And people like, yeah, yeah, sky time.

That's what we need.

Everybody can agree on sky time.

Yeah, we can all agree that we need a bit of sky.

Vitamin D.

Yeah.

So, okay, you say you're.

You're on the road as a means of getting to trail or.

Or building towards something on the trail.

How do you.

Does London have hills?

Is it pretty flat?

Like, how.

How are you accounting for the moment you hit a trail and you have vert?

It is pretty flat In London, there are some hills.

The ways I try and prep for it is, for the most part, a lot of it happens in the gym.

Uh, so the stair stepper is, you know, just a great way to strengthen legs on the uphill.

Yeah.

And then, you know, all sorts of gym exercises just strengthen the quads for the downhill.

Unfortunately, nothing.

Nothing replaces running on trails if you're training for trails at the end of the day.

So, you know, you have to prioritize trying, trying to book in trips and actually get out there.

And so I really try as much as I can to do that.

You know, it doesn't happen unless you book it in in advance.

But I really try and make sure that, you know, I'm prioritizing that.

Like, any break I'm taking, any holiday I'm taking, for the most part, I'm looking for whether there's good, you know, running routes and whether I can kind of really make the most of being out there.

So, yeah, training in the trails is definitely the best way to train for the trails.

But yeah, gym work and when it comes to actually finding a hill, just using that hill and, you know, rinsing that hill as much as you possibly can, rinse it.

That's great.

Yeah, there's a, there's a hill, a famous hill here in London, Primrose Hill.

Okay.

Which is a good hill.

It's got like some paths that go sort of around it.

And I do remember prepping for a race at one stage and I was just doing endless reps of that hill, um, which isn't that much fun, but, you know, you've just got guaranteed incline and decline every lap and you can just do 20 of those.

And that is just very good prep.

You can't argue with it.

That's really good prep for anything hilly.

Um, and if you're training in the trails, you know, yes, it's going to be great because you've got a lot more hills, but it's not as clinical.

So you can't actually bring it down.

You can't bring it into one environment and say, right, we've got a 50 meter incline that we're going to smash 10 times.

You have to rely on the route that you've plotted for yourself.

Whereas if you're actually training, you know, over one single hill repeatedly in a city, because that's your limitation, you can use that and rinse as much as you possibly can out of it, I think.

And so that's how I've done it in the past, at least.

What about with, and I don't even know like the proper terms, proper way to think about it, if it's a bone density thing or whatever it is.

But your responsiveness to.

When you're, when you're running on trail a lot and you go to the road, you feel it the next morning.

I feel it the next morning.

It hurts.

What's it like going the other direction?

Like if you're fit for the road, if your body is optimized for the road, is.

Is there a equivalent to that on the trail that you to be careful for?

I was actually thinking about this today because I knew we were going to be talking about this.

I think my, my thoughts on this are especially in the road running space.

And I know you've spoken a lot on, on the podcast to real experts when it comes to shoes.

Oh, yeah, that's true.

Yeah.

Thomas no one's better.

No one's better.

They know a huge amount.

And I think what I would say is when you are looking at road running shoes especially, we do have a tendency to try and find shoes that are very forgiving.

And so we have, what we're doing is we're choosing big foamy shoes or carbon plated shoes, which makes it easier on the body.

So it's.

And that's a good thing.

It's a good thing for recovery, it's a good thing for the speed that you want to get to out on the race.

But if you're actually looking to try and build strength and agility when it comes to your own body itself, building strength in the calves, building strength in the labs, in the legs and the feet, then a more minimal shoe is going to do that for you.

And so you do still have the ability in road environments to wear a more minimal shoe and just be a little bit more nimble on what is actually pretty untechnical terrain.

But you're sort of, you're sort of pretending essentially that you've got more to dodge, more to run around.

Yeah.

And you know, as I think the more minimal your shoe is, the more sort of proprioception you have of where your feet are landing, how it feels for the body, you're dodging potholes and all of that sort of stuff.

And you're staying nimble, staying agile, and it's also building strength, especially in the lower leg.

So for example, I'll use like currently I'm using, they're a British brand, but Innovate trail flies.

Very minimal, very minimal shoes.

And they actually just allow me to just feel a little bit more nimble and I'm taking shorter steps and sort of dancing over the pavement a little bit, maybe mixing around the terrain as much as I possibly can.

And what that's allowing me to do is just build my, my body's strength, not necessarily just relying on these big foamy shoes that bounce really nicely off the hard tarmac.

So I think there's, there is something that you can do when it comes to like choosing your shoes and choosing shoes that kind of force you to be a bit more nimble and force you to, to build strength where you'll need it on the trails.

Yeah.

And then when it comes to actually trail and how that translates to the road, I mean, when I've been running, because of such a strong background on the road, when I'm running these trails, maybe on a race or something, once it gets to a flat Tarmac section, which inevitably every race will have something like that.

You just feel very, you'll feel, feel very comfortable and so you can just find a rhythm really easily.

I think people that are just running trail, when they get to those sections on an ultra or something, they, they hate them, they hate the tarmac.

They don't, you know, they, they want it to be more interesting.

Whereas someone who's got a background in road can just absolutely gas down.

Yeah, exactly.

And so I feel comfortable on both in some ways because I'm training on the road for trail.

But naturally that road running is going to help me on the sections on the trail race that are easier, that are flatter and might be advantageous for me sort of in comparison to other participants.

Yeah.

How old are you?

29.

29, okay.

I'm 41.

So this, this makes more sense for you that I even might answer on your behalf.

But one of the things I feel like road running is doing for me as a 41 year old is that it's giving me some, giving me speed for the first time in a long time.

Like to get speed in the past, I would intentionally have to do it now.

Every day it feels like, not that I'm pushing it hard every day, but every time I get out there, there's an element of speed.

And I'm often looking at my watch thinking so crazy.

To me, I never would have thought I'd been running sub 10 miles, sub 9 miles, sometimes 9 minute miles.

I don't know what that is in kilometers, so like a thousand kilometers or something.

But as a 41 year old, I feel like my fastest times at every distance are still in front of me.

Yeah.

And I think road on some levels is g.

That's one of the gifts that road has given me right now is to say, hey, you know, when my dad turned 40, he looked old.

And you know, they say 50 is the new 40, but I feel like there's an element of road that's, it's making me really optimistic that I still have a future to get better in this sport and I really appreciate that.

I assume as 29 you feel like your best times are in front of you always.

I don't think I'll ever, ever.

It's the curse of, it's the curse of the entrepreneur as well.

Like stupid optimism, Ridiculous optimism.

Yeah, for sure.

I mean there's, there's huge value in variety and I think one, one problem that road runners will have is that they don't implement enough variety in their running.

Yeah.

They get too used to running on the roads.

It is objectively easier, it's faster, it's more satisfying in some ways, whereas trail demands a lot more of you.

You have to pay more attention, you may have to go slower, you have to be more agile, that sort of stuff.

But I think that there's.

I will always try and try to encourage people who are used to running on the road to get some mixed terrain in.

You know, anytime you see, you know, a path that veers off to the right, that goes off the tarmac, take it, take that path, because it's going to be good for your body to get that mixed terrain in.

And in the same vein, I think, like a lot of trail runners don't really know what it feels like to fully open up.

They don't actually.

Yep.

Yeah, they never.

They never sort of really going for it and getting that speed.

And speed can be really fun.

You know, some of.

Some of the best.

Some of the sort of most exciting runs of the week are the ones where you're like, I've got a tempo run, I can really open up on this one, see what I'm capable of on the tarmac.

And that translates so well onto trail running, whether it's just because you got that power output with each stride or you just got better form because you're really going fast.

Yeah, you can't really sprint over a trail unless you're really agile.

Uh, I'm really, really great at that.

You can't really sprint over a trail, uh, whereas you can absolutely gun it round a track or in the city if you've got space.

Um, so I think mixture of both, you know, variety is.

Is really the.

The aim, I reckon.

I love what you're saying here.

One of the things I'm taking away from it is in ultra trail, the thing that.

One of the things I love that makes me feel strong, makes me feel capable, is the distance I went.

Yeah.

And I never look at the pace.

One of the things in road that makes me get that, it gives me a similar feeling is when I look down and see how fast I'm going, it makes me feel strong, makes me feel capable.

All of those really cool feelings that you don't get to feel in everyday life or, you know, no matter how good you are at your job or being a, you know, partner, spouse, parent, whatever you are, you very.

You very rarely get these moments where you can look at something objective and say, oh, that for me is very fast.

That for me is very far.

So trail gives me the feeling of far.

I've never looked for speed.

And on the road, I'm, I'm, I'm happy running three to four miles.

We're on trail three to four mile.

I wouldn't, I won't even go to a trail if that's all I have time to do.

We're on the road three miles and I'm going fast.

I feel really great about myself, and I think that's one of the gifts of road.

Yeah, absolutely.

And I mean, you're, you're a numbers guy.

I can imagine you.

You really like to, you know, see that data.

Exactly.

And I think one advantage of road running is you can really clinically get exactly what you're trying to get out of that run.

You know, there's obviously always going to be variables whether you've eaten properly and slept well and all that sort of stuff.

But it is a far more clinical environment where if you're looking to get a perfect negative split, you can get a perfect negative split round a flat park.

You know, you can, you can look at your data on Strava or whatever you're using, and you can see that split perfectly.

And there's some satisfaction that can be had in that.

And then when you move to trail, you can kind of go, okay, hands up.

I'm not gonna, not gonna look at any of that stuff.

It doesn't matter.

There's way, way too much variety in the, in the trail.

And then you can kind of maybe focus on the joy of it and different aspects of what you're trying to achieve.

But road running, people fall in love with that.

Yeah, I guess, like, I'm not really a numbers guy.

I'm not, you know, I'm more about feels than numbers.

But, yeah, I, I still find some satisfaction, absolutely, in the, in the sort of really accurate data and making sure each is absolutely perfect.

And you can objectively compare one.

One run to another because you're saying, okay, this was a flat run.

I did it at the same time on a Saturday.

Yes.

This is, this is comparing to last weeks and have I made progress or not?

Um, obviously, always be careful about how you're comparing yourself to your previous self.

But there's more, there's more objectivity when it comes to trail, when it comes to road running.

Over trail running, for sure.

What about track?

Do you ever get out on a track and, you know, because you can really objectively test speed and all those.

In those workouts that come with that, are you track guide all?

I'm not massively But I have done my fair share of running around the track and if you want your fastest splits.

Yes, you can go around a track.

Yeah, there you go.

So in the same way, you know, if you, if you've got some brand new carbon plate shoes and you want to see how fast you can truly run in them, get yourself to a track and you can, you can get some really good.

Yeah.

Splits there.

Yeah.

And yeah, it's the same as road, you know, it's just more, more controlled environment.

It's not as, not as mixed.

You're not kind of dealing with as much variety.

Yeah.

Well, speaking of not dealing with as much variety as great segue, you don't have a job anymore.

From what I understand, your variety has lessened and your focus has increased on your new day job.

And I think that's, that's a fun, fun topic because I obviously love entrepreneurship.

Not everybody does.

But the reality is, is for those who enjoy what you put out now, running, and I'd love to know how you put it, running, running, related content, all that sort of stuff, that's your day job.

Yeah, I was cringing.

Someone says run fluencer or something like that attitude, man.

I guess, I guess so.

But how do I put it?

Yeah, I'm trying to make an honest living out of encouraging people to get out the door and go for a run, basically.

Yeah.

Oh man, that's, I mean, that's a great way to put it because I mean, let's talk from a business standpoint, a market sizing standpoint.

Like there's a, that's a big market and there's a lot of people who are talking about that in a variety of different ways.

But I think the way that you talk about it specifically is quite unique just from following your content.

And I'll put a link in the show notes, of course, but I mean, what do you, how would you word what you think your sort of niche is within this space of encouraging people to get out and go?

I think for me it sort of morphed over, over time.

I think I came into it very much as like someone who had a love for the outdoors, a love for trail running and a love for running itself.

Yeah.

And trying to just encourage runners to approach it in a way that's not necessarily the same as everyone else.

You know, I think there's, there's definitely a problem that I see in the industry, in the running industry is that there's a bit of an obsession with carbon plated shoes, with looking good, with getting perfect Splits with what I like to call the classics, which are, you know, the 5K, 10K half marathon, marathon.

And that's fine, that's fun, and it has its place.

And you can definitely enjoy a half marathon or a marathon, whether it's like the spectacle of the event or, you know, just that comparison of one marathon time to another.

Absolutely.

That's cool.

But where I think I would like to try and encourage people to consider where they would be in the.

In the running space is there's just so much more that you can do within running that people don't necessarily focus on.

And there's so many different events out there.

Like, different.

I like to call concept races of different formats, where by their format, they are very inclusive.

So you might have like a backyard ultra, which is actually very inclusive because you're just going out and trying to go as far as you can, or you might have, you know, there are.

There are all sorts of races, whether it's like a.

Going up to a hill and seeing how many times you can rep that hill and getting an award for a mountain that, you know, correlates to the height that you've managed, the elevation you managed to gain, or, yeah, you're trying to Everest a hill or come close to it.

You know, there's all sorts of different events.

Different.

You know, there's.

There's, you know, obstacle events.

You know, like, we have tough mother out here.

Oh, yeah.

And that sort of stuff.

You know, there's loads of different ways you can get involved in it.

That.

That doesn't have to be a marathon.

I think what I see from people is, oh, I'm not really a runner, you know, because I haven't run a marathon, or I'm not really a runner because I don't really want to run a marathon or half marathon.

And what they see is they see a runner and they see the classic stuff, and they don't really necessarily look outside of that to engage with running in their own way.

You don't even have to do events.

I think there's.

I want to try and have people realize the benefits of running and not racing.

You know, the benefits of just being a runner because you're a daily.

You're someone who is a daily runner who gets out there and runs in your own way.

And so I guess redefining what it means to be a runner in inverted commas and actually having people realize that they are a runner simply because they're a human who can run and it's accessible, it's available to you, you can approach it in any way you want.

And yeah, I don't want people to be put off by the classics because quite often people, I see this so much and I think anyone you speak to who has mates who run, there's often this tendency to sign up to a marathon before they've even necessarily got into running.

And then what happens is they start training too late and then the training's really intense, it's too clinical.

They haven't found a joy for running before they've even signed up.

They do the event, they're under trained, they hate the whole thing and then they never run again.

And it's just a.

It's a standard story.

I see it all the time and I personally think it's a real shame because I have loved the marathons I've done, I've loved the events I've done.

I find them enjoyable.

But really for me, what has been far more enjoyable has been being a runner, has been the daily practice of running and having that in my life.

And so if I can have people just apply that simple daily practice and sort of carry on being a runner in their own way, then I would say that's a success in what I'm trying to achieve.

I had a buddy who has a company called Roman Run and they had a shirt that said marathons are for quitters.

And that was their whole point with is what you just said.

It's like that, that whole thing, the number of people that just run one marathon for that exact reason that you just laid out, I thought it was a funny shirt, but because that's an absolutely accurate phenomenon.

And I love that you call these 5K 10K half marathon, the classics, I think that's brilliant as well.

And to not overlook those, like, you know, to embrace even the person who aspires to run a hundred miles or 200 miles like that.

Don't overlook like the fun of a 5k, the enjoyment of a 10k and that people that you're running alongside of, for some of them, that's their 200 mile race.

That's a massive thing for that person to endeavor.

And so really at all distances, that's somebody's hardest race, that's somebody's thing that they never thought they could do 5k.

I know I have people that I know that think they can't do a 5K.

And if they ever endeavor to do it and I'm out there like I'm running alongside someone, that's like, that's the thing for them.

And they, you know, they're, they're teaching themselves that they are capable and that's an absolutely beautiful thing.

Yeah.

And kind of defining what that is for them rather than letting other people define it for them.

Yeah, yeah.

I think definitely the marathon, the marathon distance.

There's a problem with the marathon distance in that it's become the kind of pinnacle of what it means to be a runner.

Like if you, yeah, if you don't run a marathon, then you're not a runner.

Or you know, I've even had people say to me, I'm, I'm not really a runner, I haven't done a marathon yet.

And I'm sort of like, you don't have to, you don't have to.

We got to kill that.

Yeah, yeah.

Like there's no.

If you're not interested in doing a marathon, then don't do it because it's not that cool.

It's just a certain distance.

It really means, it's pretty arbitrary.

It really means nothing.

And it's the same as any sort of milestone time in the marathon, whether it's the sub four, sub three, whatever that is, that define that they're sort of defining themselves and their self worth by some other's definition of what it is or even an idea of what other people might think that is.

You know, it's so, yeah, it's such a strange kind of phenomenon I think that we, yeah, we need to eradicate because yeah, it really means nothing and you should only be doing the stuff that is attractive to you.

I know people who have not run any of the classics and the first event they did was an ultra and they fell in love with running because they did a 60k or you know, the next run they did was a 50 miler and they approached in a completely different way.

Yeah.

And anyone who's run an ultra and also run the classics, the road running events will know is essentially a different sport.

You know, it's not even the same thing.

Yeah, there's so much more to think about.

It's a different adventure, it's a different sport.

And that might be the space that you fall in love with.

For me, I never really fell in love with all the classics.

It wasn't really why I became a runner.

It was only when I found ultra running and that whole culture that I was like, ah, this is, this is what I'm into.

They get it.

Yes.

Yeah, I think to me too like that I so connected with the ultra culture of being celebrating that you did it and there being very Little discussion about time, which I don't judge someone if that's what they want to ask.

I, I'm curious again, I'm a data person.

I love time.

But there was, it was so just like, man, I don't know how to describe it.

It's the inverse, but similar to like going into a bar and seeing people that are like you and just like, I just want to hang out and chat with you for a little bit.

This is great.

We're, we're like minded in a certain way.

And so that community I loved.

And so my friend Brian Wolf Runner, he talks about how like he knows trail runners who've never run on trail before.

Just.

And it's this mentality, it's that exact mentality of like, what are we out here doing and why are we out here doing it?

It's just different.

No judgment on the other people.

But this is kind of what unifies us is this sort of dirt bag.

We're out here because we love it approach.

Yeah.

And I think I see the same.

And there's plenty of spaces that I see.

There's a bit of teasing and ridicule.

Yeah.

You know, you have a bit of trail runners will tease, road runners and all that sort of stuff.

And it's the same with surfers and bodyboarders.

You know, you have the same kind of teasing of each other, but they're still out there enjoying the waves.

They're still doing ultimately the same thing and they have a love for the same thing.

And I see the same in running, really.

Road running, trail running, whatever kind of running.

It's all running.

It's all moving body in the same way.

And I have realized that I actually just have a love for running.

I have a love for running and being outside and being under the sky and no matter what that looks like, I still get to do it.

And so you can.

You kind of try to appreciate what you have at your disposal, what's in front of you on a daily basis.

And that might not be running up beautiful mountains every time, but it is that daily practice.

And then when you're doing that daily practice in preparation for what you love, when you do actually get to do what you love, then you appreciate it more.

I have a sneaky suspicion if I had the trails at my doorstep every time, I still complain about that one route.

I do every day, you know.

Yeah, yeah.

We are human in that way.

Well, all right, last question then.

What?

So now that this is your life, now that you don't have to go Clock in, punch in at the day job.

This is your day job.

Where's your ambition at?

Like, what do you, what do you hope to see happen in the next year?

What do you, what hills are you climbing?

So many.

So many.

Yeah, it's.

It's day one today of actually fully being self employed, so it's very cool.

Yeah.

You know, I always said that I would be self employed by the time I'm 30.

Ah, that happens in February.

So I think putting timetables on it like that.

And maybe that's just.

Again, I'm a sentimental type person, but I have always.

I had this one really weird one.

By the age of 30, I either want to be in the discussion that I'll be nominated for a Grammy or I'm done with music.

Yeah.

And I wasn't even close.

And so I thought, you know what, there's power in this.

Like, so you wanted it by 30 and you got it.

Like, it wasn't arbitrary.

Like you're, you're even your subconscious is driving you toward that and as well as your conscious.

And you did it.

Yeah.

And I feel very privileged to be doing it in a space I adore.

Yeah.

You know, and really trying to have something that has some value to others, and that's what really drives me.

And so, you know, building that's runnable, which is the podcast, it's the newsletter, it's events and anything else that I can build on that brand and that's runnable, really is just an extension of my own ethos, which I feel has sort of resonated with a lot of people on social media.

And we'll see where it goes.

But I really want to have a bit of a community of people who believe in defining their own, defining what's runnable for them, you know, defining what is doable for them and approaching running in a way that's not comparing themselves to others and having to slot into whatever, you know, slot they think currently exists.

Yeah.

Slotting into how?

Defining it however they want, you know, approaching it however they want.

And a focus on having running in your life for a long time rather than approaching it unsustainably.

Actually approaching it with a view of longevity and appreciating its value for you as an individual, rather than just, I'm going to go out and get these times and be a better runner.

It's actually about being a runner, keeping it in your life, enjoying the process and kind of having fun with it, I guess.

Yeah.

Well, I'll be paying attention, of course.

I hope to be doing more of this with you.

And I know, gosh, I'm trying real hard to see you in America.

I know you'll be there next summer, and there's going to be more about that coming up soon.

But congrats.

Yeah.

Thank you, man.

Day one.

Congrats.

Just.

Just starting out, you know, had a couple meetings today, and you sort of working from a cafe.

This is good.

Yes.

This is good.

Yeah.

My.

So my life.

I can only work out a coffee shop, so I cannot work in an office.

I just can't be at the same place two days in a row.

Yes.

An absolute curse and a blessing because I just.

That's how I move all around Paris.

Like, that's what I love in Salt Lake.

I'm moving all around Salt Lake, and I love that.

I love officing out of cafes.

Yeah.

And I guess to.

To make it relate to the episode.

I think I'm excited to be able to, you know, manage my own week, and maybe if I want to just drive out of the city and get to some trails midweek, you know, that sort of stuff is exciting to me.

Yeah, that's part of the.

That's part of the gift.

I mean, as an entrepreneur, you're going to carry more weight, but as an entrepreneur, then you can do that if you want to.

You just count the cost and count the weight, the weight distribution.

You'll have a heavier weight later, but for today, you get to trail.

Exactly.

Yeah.

All right, man.

Well, congrats.

Let's do this again.

Thanks, Steve.

It's too cold.

Too.