Porter asked astrologers Tristan and Kyle, about their thoughts on the asteroids, and they may have gotten more then they bargained for. Side A of this episode covers a general overview of the asteroids in astrology, as well as a closer look at Ceres and Juno. Side B covers Pallas and Vesta.

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Consultations: https://kylepierceastrology.com

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Tristan Paylor-

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Consultations: https://badsignastrology.ca

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Hello, and welcome to the astrology hotline

where we answer your questions about your birth chart or about

astrology in general. Today is Thursday, August 5, my name is

Tristan Paylor, and hosting with me today is Kyle Pierce. Hello.

We have a special episode for you today. Our question comes

from Porter, who wants to know what our thoughts are about the

asteroids in astrology? And as it turns out, we have so many

thoughts that we decided just to devote an entire episode to this

particular question.

Yeah, before receiving this question, I had

really been quite dismissive of the asteroids. Initially, you

know, in my initial studies of astrology, we did like what a

lot of people do is just I read, you know, ooh, that's

descriptions of my, you know, my Juno sign or, or this or that.

And, you know, thought it was interesting. But then, you know,

once I got into more traditional forms of astrology, I really

just kind of stopped paying attention to them all together.

But this question definitely prompted some research that

surprisingly, changed my perspective on them had a deep

impact, if you will. That's a that's upon based on the movie

Deep Impact in which asteroid hits hits the earth it? But

yeah, how about you, Tristan, what is your experience with the

asteroids? Before?

The the Deep Impact reference is not lost on

me for what that's worth. Yeah, I'm in a similar boat. I was a

little interested in them when I first got into astrology. And

quickly, I don't know, I kind of thought they were noise. And

then, you know, in the last year or so, I've been really studying

traditional astrology very deeply, and, you know, really

focusing on the seven visible planets. And in a way, I'm, I am

glad that that was my trajectory. Because it's sort of

starting with the basics, and starting with the planets that

have been part of the tradition for 1000s of years, I think has

been helpful for me in terms of conceptualizing how the

asteroids are useful and what they mean. And you know, what

they add, potentially to the tradition, I, I ended up I

wasn't expecting to have my world rocked by learning more

about the asteroids, but here I am.

Yeah. Seems ease. Now I think it ends up being

really helpful. I'm glad to be learning more about this, the

asteroids now. Just, I feel like I'm able to really pull apart

maybe what an asteroid like in my chart, or someone else's

chart might be doing a little more, you know, knowing how to

differentiate between, say, series and the moon. Right. But

we'll, we'll get into that as we, we go along.

I feel like I should say, you know, as a full

disclaimer, for this episode, I am by no means an asteroid

expert, I, you know, did a deep dive into researching them in

the past week. And, you know, as, as many of us do, when we

start researching things in astrology, we immediately

reference them back to our own charts, or the charts of our

loved ones and people we know well. So, you know, I'm not

like, there are astrologers who have studied the asteroids for

decades, and have experienced looking at them in hundreds upon

hundreds of client charts. There are, you know, historians who

know a ton about the mythology behind you know, the names of

the asteroids, like the figures they represent. I am I am

neither of those people. So, I think, you know, a lot of what I

have to say, is going to be grounded in my personal

experience. And, you know, the story of my sort of introduction

to the asteroids in the past week, because I you know, I

can't really speak from a place of authority on anything other

than my personal experience.

I mean, ultimately, that that ends up being what

sells most people on anything astrology related, you know,

they see something in their own chart. that really, really

resonates. And it's true, you know, holy cow, I, you know, I

got to know more about this. And it's basically been the last

week of just really obsessively absorbing as much information as

I can about about asteroids. Yeah, it's been intense. Yeah,

maybe, you know, after we go over them a bit, talk about how,

you know, we might individually use them in the future. I think

they, you know, definitely deserve recognition. And, you

know, they, they do something, they do stuff, I would say, but

maybe treat them still differently than, you know, the

traditional planets.

That might be a good segue into just sort of

talking broadly about what the asteroids are, you know, what

differentiates them from the traditional planets and other

bodies in the solar system? And yeah, I think you had a good

sort of overview, Kyle, that you were describing to me.

Yeah. Um, so to define asteroids. Asteroids from

an astrological standpoint include planetary bodies in the

solar system, some of which can astronomically be categorized as

asteroids, but also larger objects that different times

were categorized as planets, minor planets, and planetoids.

Usually, when people refer to asteroids and astrology, they're

referring to basically all the planetary bodies that are not

one of the seven traditional planets Sun, Moon, Mercury,

Mars, Venus, Jupiter, Saturn, or one of the three outer planets,

Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto. Objects like Chiron or series,

or Vesta palace, and Juno, for example. Era eras seems to also

get kind of lumped in with the asteroids. But it's technically

you know, kind of categorized as a minor planet similar to Pluto.

And kind of part of a group of trans Neptunian minor planets.

It's there's like a bunch of them that they're discovering

all the time. You also get different categories among the

asteroids in astrology, like Chiron, for example, is part of

the family of planetary bodies called sentarse, comprising a

group of asteroids, and planetoids that inhabit the

region of the solar system beyond the orbit of Saturn. Is

it between Saturn and Neptune? Am I

there wild? I mean, the they're very

appropriately named and categorized. The astronomers who

are working on these things, we're definitely thinking

symbolically when they named them. The center's are asteroids

that have unstable orbits that cross the orbits of one or more

of the larger planets, typically between Saturn and Pluto.

Yeah. You really did most of the research on on

the center's defer to you on that.

Wikipedia was

Wikipedia is everybody's around.

Donate to wake up eat. Yeah, actually good.

Um, Mercury remediation, by the way, for

anybody interested in donating to Wikipedia? Yeah, I do so

regularly.

The center's have characteristics of both

asteroids and comments. And the mythological centers are both

horse and human. Interesting. There's, yeah, there's a lot of

symbolic resonance there. Yeah, and there are it's estimated

that there are between 44,000 and more than 10 million centers

in our solar system. So there is a crowd there is a rowdy crowd

of celestial bodies hanging out around and past Saturn. Watch

out.

Yeah, I there's so much information floating around

in my brain but um, you know, if I say something inaccurate

begging of Pardons, but I remember reading something about

there being you know, was it in counting like, over 100,000

minor planets in the solar system are things that you could

you could classify as minor planets. But, you know, the

center's kind of represent one main body, or one main category

of asteroids. And then there are those that inhabit the region of

space between Mars and Jupiter, otherwise known as the asteroid

belt. And these include asteroids like Ceres, Juno

Vesta, Palace Igea, just to name a few more prominent ones. But

there are 1000s of these bodies, and more are discovered being

discovered all the time.

And the just to give listeners an idea of sort

of the timeframe. The first few asteroids that were discovered

in the asteroid belts were discovered in the early 1800s.

Series was the first, she was discovered in January of 1801.

And then the center's you know, being farther away are a more

recent discovery, I think.

1970s. Right.

Well, the very first one was discovered in

1920. But the making, the Wikipedia article describes it

as they were not recognized as a distinct population until the

discovery of Chiron in 1977. So I'm going to infer from that

that that's about when the center's became sort of a

collective category of celestial objects. And then, you know, you

have like the, the ones that get used a lot in astrology. Were, I

think, discovered, from the 1970s on Chiron was in 77, and

Phyllis and necess, were in the early 90s and Chariklo, that

Chariklo is the wife of Chiron. And she's come up on my radar

more and more in the last couple of years, as a body that is used

by astrologers, and she was discovered in 1990 97. So

they're, they're a little more recent there. They just come up

on our radar, you know, in very recent history.

Yeah. Well, that sounds like a good maybe segue

into just talking a little bit about kind of the history of how

asteroids and started getting incorporated into astrology.

Yeah, that sounds great.

Well, I know that Dimitra George was not

necessarily the first to use asteroids in astrology, but she

is really credited. I think, kind of primarily responsible

for introducing and kind of popularizing the use of

asteroids in modern astrology. She began work on them in the

late 1960s, or 1970s. Eventually publishing a very popular book

on them in the 1980s, called asteroid goddesses. And her

interpretation of the asteroids, emphasized the mythology of the

goddesses after which they were named, and presented them as

representing a sort of counterbalance to the

predominance of patriarchal archetypes in traditional

astrology, as their discovery, loosening to coincide with kind

of increasing awareness and prominence of women and women's

issues in public life and society. And one thing I find

very interesting about Dimitra George's chard is She's a Leo

rising, and she has Venus in Virgo ruling her 10th house, you

think that Virgo often has to do with an A focusing on smaller

things like, you know, asteroids as compared to planets, and

Venus being, you know, very inclusive, sort of harmonizing

planet in fact that, you know, her career kind of claim to fame

is really finding a place even advocating for incorporating

these otherwise minor bodies. And actually, you know,

initially she was met with like, a lot of, you know, a lot of

mainstream astrologers in the 70s just kind of scoffed at her

like, Oh, we don't need this, these these, you know, little

floating balls of, of ice and rock, you know, gunking up our,

our perfect astrology,

they refer to them as like gravel or something

like that. She does. Yeah,

yeah. She's like gravel, floating balls of

gravel. Yeah,

she's a guest on an episode of the astrology

podcast. And she talks about the asteroids and like her, how she

became interested in it and the reception she received from the

astrology community. And I couldn't help smiling when I was

listening to her talk about it, because, you know, she was kind

of talking about having to work from a grassroots level. Because

the people who, you know, had the positions of authority in

the astrology world, we're not interested in hearing about the

asteroids, and we're very dismissive of them. But, you

know, people that she was doing client work with, were actually

really interested in them. And really resonating with their

stories, I think in part because, you know, there there

aren't a lot of goddesses among the planets that astrologers

were using at the time. So was sort of popularizing them from

that grassroots place. And I kind of like that, you know, as

someone who's got a little bit of an anti establishment streak.

Yeah. And I think that's a good um, you know, for

anybody out there that has, you know, maybe a planet that you

traditionally called, you know, in its fall or in its detriment,

you know, ruling in important house. It's a lot of ways that

that can work out. very favorably, I mean, she's one of

the big one of the best known astrologers and the astrology

community. Definitely is going to have a legacy that is gonna,

gonna endure, I would assume.

Yeah, definitely. But this, this is

now a pro Venus and Virgo podcast. Now like Venus in

Virgo. I do love the planets and fall or detriment in the 10th

house or in the first house and being, you know, kind of movers

and shakers who forced the establishment to kind of change

who criticize the establishment or just like, yeah, and even

like, from a Venusian level, it's not like she was

criticizing the establishment necessarily. But just like her

work, actually relating to people did end up shaking up the

establishment and kind of forcing them to wake up and

reassess their position on things.

Like, oh, yeah, this is what people want to hear

now. And it's what they want to see. There's what they're asking

about in their charts. We better read Dimitris book and learn

about this. And

that's like, I mean, this is something you

know, now that I'm walking down the path of being a professional

astrologer, there's often a difference between what you

know, professional astrologers in the astrology community are

really focused on and what clients who are seeking readings

from professional astrologers are focused on. And the

asteroids are really popular among people who are consumers

of astrology readings. And I think, you know, it's important

to take that seriously. Like, there's a reason that people

want to see certain things, there's a resonance there, and I

don't think that we should ignore what resonates with

people kind of defeats the whole purpose of doing astrology.

I absolutely agree.

On that note, I think it is important to still

sort of distinguish what role it is that asteroids play and what

is it that differentiates them from the planets? I don't know

if you have some thoughts on that.

Yeah. Well, um, this is related. I do want to

talk just a little bit about the concept of diamond. So Dimitra

frame the asteroids within the ancient Greek cosmology, that

astrology is based on as diamond. And diamond has a

meaning akin to spirit in English, but was also used to

kind of refer to the gods, but rather than maybe the personhood

or personality of a given God, which might be called Theo's

diamond was often used to describe the action or activity

of the gods. And you kind of get a sense of this, when you look

at the significations of the houses of the 12 houses with the

bottom hemisphere, you get the house of good fortune, you get

the house of bad fortune. And the bottom hemisphere houses are

more embodied, they deal with topics that are more embodied

having to do with physical or tangible experiences in general,

with the upper hemisphere, you know, houses, eight through 12,

dealing more with kind of activity, more abstract

conceptual houses, the house of good spirit, the house of a bad

spirit. And then die die man would also describe sort of semi

divine beings that would act sort of go betweens between the

gods and sort of plain of human experience. Like think of them

as sort of, like lieutenants, you know, like the planets, the

planetary gods give the orders and, you know, they might give

like a general decree, but it's kind of up to the lieutenant's

to decide on how its carried out. And I think you can really

see that play out for people in charts when you're kind of

looking at their their asteroid placements.

And I think, I think as I you know, my my

beginner crowd course on the asteroids this past week has

been reading asteroid goddesses by Dimitra. George and she talks

about, like a planetary matrix at points in the book where, you

know, like the moon sort of acts as a as a matrix or like an

umbrella concept and then an asteroid like series exists

under that umbrella as sort of a more specific expression of the

lunar archetype.

Yeah, definitely. That's very concise and succinct

way was trying to say, thank you for that.

You're welcome. Now, I think is it's useful

because you know, one of the, once you start adding objects

into astrology, you potentially run into redundancy, which, you

know, is something like I've one of the reasons I've been really

kind of focusing on learning astrology, and practicing

Astrology with just the seven traditional planets is that you

know, the meaning that's given to the outer planets. A lot of

those significations were significations that already

belonged in the tradition to the seven traditional planets like

Pluto takes a lot of its significations from Mars, for

example. So, when you're dealing with just like a large number of

bodies, there is that question of, you know, what do they stand

for, that isn't just repeating something that's already part of

the tradition are already covered by the seven traditional

planets, but I think there is a way in which the asteroids are

like, more specific manifestations of those broader

archetypes. And you know, they they stand for specific stories.

You know, like, Cirrus, has a very clear narrative that the

moon doesn't necessarily have, because the moon is such a broad

archetype. But then you look at the story of Demeter, who's the

Greek equivalent of Ceres, and where, you know, the asteroid

gets a lot of its meaning from, and that's like a very specific

story and roll that's sort of like in the lunar sphere. But

you can, like, identify that narrative. A little more exactly

in a chart when you look at that asteroid. Hopefully, I'm making

sense.

No, absolutely. Yeah, I think that was really

one of the things that confused me about the asteroids, kind of

looking at them early on, is like, Oh, well, Juno, it's the

Juno was the goddess of of marriage. Right? Well, isn't

that Venus? You know, what is that? What makes that different

from Venus? And I think what has maybe helped me understand what

they're doing is, is, like you said, they're, like extensions

of, or more specific permutations of, of that theme.

You know, I don't think that Juno was like stealing

significations from Venus. And say that, you know, Juno is like

another place to look for themes around marriage, but it also

has, you know, more very specific themes around not just

marriage but

like a specific experience of marriage and a

specific experience and relationship you know, there's a

certain partner Yeah, yeah.

Have you know, that are primarily primarily derived

from the, the archetype the goddess in question the

mythology around it, which is another maybe important

distinguish, distinguishing point about the asteroids is

that the traditional planets while a lot of the

significations line up with mythology of God that it was

named after. We don't really rely as much on on mythology to

kind of pull the significations for the traditional planets.

They're much broader archetypes.

And I'm just thinking, you know, the, the

planets play these really sort of clear roles where, you know,

like, Saturn and Mars negate things Jupiter and Venus affirm

things and regardless of their mythology, you know, they play a

certain they have to do a certain job within the system.

And, you know, the asteroids are not sort of tasked with the

responsibilities that the traditional planets are. They

just kind of stand alone as stories. And, you know, I think

like when you're looking at the traditional planets in a chart,

you know, you're sort of looking at like Say, a planet is ruling

a certain house. And that says something about how the topics

of that house might go in somebody's life. And a planet

like Jupiter or Saturn having an influence on that planet is

going to really significantly change how that planet like,

does its job like say, you know, a planet rules your seventh

house, it's in charge of your relationships, and it's being

opposed by Saturn. And so it has to kind of work against that

energy in order to give you relationships. Yeah, whereas the

asteroids, you know, when you're working with them, it's more

about telling the story like this is the story of Ceres. Does

that story resonate with your own life story in a meaningful

way?

Yeah, yeah, I would say, especially given that, you

know, at least as far as I can tell, and the way that the

asteroids are used, you know, they, they don't rule houses

like the planets do. So they're not creating scenes as much.

They're not defining, you know, the environment, setting the

stage, but they're kind of like actors, in the sense of

operating within, within a paradigm, you know,

yeah. Yeah, they don't have that. That

responsibility. You know, they're kinda like, they're not

in charge of anything. Yeah, but they're just like, involved.

Yeah, but I mean, the also, in some ways, they

show up almost more visibly. In a sense, because they, they, you

know, if you have, say, Saturn in your 10th house, in a night

chart, you know, you might have you may, you may meet a lot of

obstacles or run into really strict authority figures in, you

know, your, your work in public career life. Right. But, you

know, Saturn is conjunct, say, really, any one of these

asteroids, you know, they might, it might take on, you might run

into a lot of like, powerful female figures, you know, or,

you know, Saturn might be delivering it significations,

sort of through the themes of that asteroid. That makes sense.

I actually really like that. Yeah, I think

that totally makes sense. Where, you know, the, the Saturn that

you meet in your 10th house is a slightly different face of

Saturn, if there's an asteroid right there, where, you know,

Saturn sort of broadly represents maybe authority

figures. And if Saturn is conjunct an asteroid, like say,

Pallas, who you know, as a warrior goddess, those authority

figures might be, you know, strategists or powerful women or

whatever the case may be, there's still going to be

Saturnian. But it's Saturn expressing itself through a more

specific archetype.

Yeah, and you know, this, as far as I can tell, at

this point, you know, further research may reveal a different

story, but I don't know if like series can like bonsai a planet

or maltreat a planet? You know, I don't know if you can really

strictly call any of them benefics or malefics, or

anything like that. I don't know if they have those kinds of

powers. This as far as I can tell,

should we maybe introduce, you know, listeners

to the Goddesses in the center's at least, you know, the ones

that get used most often, since we've been talking a little bit

about them might be good to give them a formal introduction.

Yeah, absolutely. For most of my research

purposes, just because there are 1000s of asteroids, I focus a

lot of my research on the Big Four to me, Drew would call the

Big Four. And that would be series Palace, Pallas, Athena,

Vesta, and Juno

which they so I also maybe introduced the

Centaurus just briefly. Yeah. We're going to we've focused our

research on the four goddess asteroids. But I do want to

mention some of the Centaurus just briefly just to give you

because they they are used with some frequency Chiron in

particular. Chiron is automatically placed in a chart

if you cast a chart on astro.com. So most people who

get into astrology are familiar with Chiron so he probably

doesn't need much of an introduction, but he is the

wounded healer archetype. I won't give you know a whole

overview of his mythology But, you know, he's, he's unusual.

Among the centers in that the centers in Greek mythology are

generally a very rowdy bunch of creatures. They're sort of feral

and they don't really care about you know, morals or the laws of

society. They sort of represent the wilderness and Chiron is

actually he has some divine parentage. And he's, he's not

just sort of animalistic, like the other centers. He's actually

like a teacher and a healer. So he has kind of a significant

position among the centers. And then another sort of similar

Centaurus full list, who does come up in discussions of

centers and astrology sometimes full us was also considered to

be a little bit more civilized than the other centers, but he

was not immortal. And then Chariklo was the wife of Chiron.

In some accounts in Greek mythology, she is the daughter

of Apollo. Unfortunately, I couldn't really find much about

her that wasn't explicitly about her connections to men.

Basically, all of the information I could find on

Chariklo was about how she was related to Manuel. She's the

wave of Chiron. She's the nurse of a number of Greek heroes.

We're getting at Kelly's and, and her name, the one thing I

could find out about her that didn't have to do with her

relationships with men was the meaning of her name, which is

graceful spinner. And then we have a lot of centers that are

not such nice people. Chiron fullest and Chariklo are, you

know, generally nice people. Then there's Nessus, who tried

to have his way with the wife of Herrick Lee's and Heroclix

killed him and then his own the poisoned blood of necess

eventually killed Herrick, please. So, not a very pleasant

story. And ACCION is another Centaur that sometimes shows up

in astrology, who he's I don't know that he's strictly a

centaur mythologically speaking, astronomically speaking. That's

the category he's in. mythologically speaking. He's

actually the ancestor of all the centers and how he ended up as

the ancestor to all the centers is also not a very nice story.

So just he's not a nice guy a

lot of very not nice in Greek mythology.

There Yeah, yeah, there. They're not very

pleasant. ACCION story is not very pleasant. So you know, if

you look that app content warning for that one, there's a

lot of bloodshed and just generally immoral behavior going

on.

Yeah, I find just on that note, it's almost kind

of nice is that there is usually like a family friendly,

friendly, more family friendly version of a Greek story. And

then there's like the really awful dark version that you

know, maybe depending on your tastes, you can sort of choose

your your own adventure on that to some degree.

Definitely. So then, I guess you know, that

brings us to the goddesses who you really want to dive into?

Yeah. All right. We're starting with series, right?

Yes, series was the first first asteroid discovered

and actually was discovered in 1801, by Giuseppe Piazzi. If I'm

not pronouncing that correctly, DISAPPEA. It was considered a

planet. They classified it as a planet until about 1850 1850s or

so when it was classified as an asteroid. And then I believe in

2006, the same time that Pluto was being demoted to a minor

planet series got promoted to to a minor planet. Series is what

is called a proto planet is basically a thief is like a

planetary sort of Lego block. That never really got quite

incorporated into a Lego set. Series is the only minor planet

in the inner solar system. That's, you know, within the

orbit of the asteroid belt. It's the largest object in the

asteroid belt makes up about 25% of its mass, its orbit is 100.

And since 1682 Earth days or about 4.6 Earth years, NASA

actually consider series, one of the solar systems primary

candidates for the existence of potential life due to the

abundance of water. In fact, they estimate that about 50% of

the mass of Ceres could be water. That is very flattering.

Yeah, as well. Want to get all this science business?

Established because it really does actually seem with a lot of

the other asteroids is that some of their astronomy and kind of

physical characteristics really show up in the mythology and

kind of how they they seem to play out in charts. But also one

of the, you know, physical, physical qualities of series, or

perhaps the astronomical qualities of series, is it under

very rare conditions? When series is at peak magnitude, if

the sky on Earth happens to be dark enough, it is possible to

see series with the naked eye if you have just perfect 2020

vision, but you can generally see series with just simple

binoculars. And I think that's true for not sure about Juno,

but

it's definitely true for Vesta, because Vesta is

very reflected, as does

the brightest. Yeah. And I think that that

visibility is something in my mind that maybe upgrades them

maybe holds them gives them a little more significance than

some of the other asteroids, or at least, you know, with my sort

of cynical, bent, like, oh, well, maybe I'll take you

seriously. Because, you know, I can see you or something.

Yeah, what is what is biggest and most

obvious, and, you know, what do we give the most attention to?

And I think, I mean, this is not strictly related to series. But

one thing that does really distinguish the asteroids from

the seven traditional planets is visibility, and just the amount

of time we've been observing them. And I think there's

something symbolic there, too, like there's, you know, by the

time we started discovering these asteroids, it's because

technology had advanced enough to enable us to discover, you

know, everything else going on in our solar neighborhood, you

know, astrologers, in ancient Greece, or in medieval Europe,

or, you know, wherever people were doing astrology, they

didn't have access to a computer that would just like, plug in,

where, you know, all of the the dwarf planets and asteroids were

in a given chart, you know, they were calculating all this stuff

by hand based on what they could actually like, observe. So this

is kind of a new era for astrology in a way that, you

know, the asteroids maybe symbolizes, you know, we, what

we can see that whole issue of visibility, what is visible to

us has expanded significantly. Yeah,

yeah. But what do you think? Should I go to the

mythology first or go over significations? First,

let's let's dive into the mythology of series.

Okay, so give a brief overview of the mythology

of series. She was the goddess of fertility and agriculture,

seen as the patron of farmers and common folk, somewhat unique

among the Pantheon, for being just really actively involved in

human affairs, as opposed to most of the gods who would kind

of pick pet humans to take interest in or, you know, humans

they wanted to have sex with, or kind of intervene when it served

their agenda. When they wanted to prove something to another

god or whatever. There's a lot of games you know, the gods like

to play, but Ceres is kind of the one that just did what her

job was just a sort of, she was really in charge of agriculture,

at its essence, but in the Greek Roman era, people tended to

worship the God that was most associated with their social

status or profession. So serious may have been, perhaps the most

widely worship because she was the goddess of the common

farmer. plebeians, right? You also get the word serial from

Sirius, some from series. Series was the mother of Persephone,

maybe most notably in her story, who was kidnapped by Pluto. And

there's kind of an interesting astronomical relationship with

Jupiter. That sort of coincides because Pluto was sort of given

the okay from Jupiter to kidnap series his sister's daughter to

take his wife and astronomically. Scientists

believe Jupiter's gravitational dominance of that region had

something to do with why series never formed into a planet. So

in the story, Persephone A series goes looking for

Persephone, is it series? She goes she goes looking for

Persephone, right. Does she go down into the underworld? Or how

does that that come from that take place?

series, I don't believe goes down into the

underworld. She when she finds out what happened she

essentially goes on strike. Yeah, that's when nothing on

earth will grow. Yeah, because Ceres is the green goddess and

you know, the goddess of nurturing and agriculture and

food when she's grieving for her abducted daughter and nothing on

earth will grow and everyone is hungry.

Yeah, basically just winter, right.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Yeah. And so kind of to appease series, because

you know, and otherwise, she's been otherwise like benevolent

God. But, you know, if you take your daughter away, she'll,

she'll mess you up. Right? So the God's orchestrated a deal

with Pluto, you know, like a Pluto. You need to give her

Persephone back. But Pluto, was it the he fed, or that he gave

he tricked Persephone into eating?

A pomegranate,

eating a pomegranate. And it's right in

the underworld. And the rule was that if you ate something in

Hades, then you couldn't leave. But they, you know, we're sort

of going to get to work around. Basically you get a sort of a

split custody agreement between Ceres and Pluto. In which

Persephone spends I don't think it's 5050 I think it was.

I think it I think it is, I think it's half

the year after year after year. Persephone is in the underworld

and half the year. Persephone is in the world of mortals. And I

guess, maybe you know, the world of mortals. Persephone is not in

the underworld and can be with her mother's series, and the

series is happy and things grow on earth during the year, which

is sort of a mythological, like the origin of the story of the

seasons. Yeah. Yeah, there's this year, where we can't grow

anything and everything has cooled, because the goddess of

agriculture is grieving. Because she wants to be with her

daughter.

Yeah. So that kind of being the broad mythology,

you can see where a lot of the significations of series come

from. So you know, significations four series

involve motherhood nurturing, they called series, The Great

Mother, she's referred to often as the Great Mother, mother of

the people. So you get themes of just motherhood, but also not

just motherhood in the sort of traditionally mothering

component of parenthood, but kind of playing the mother role

to larger groups. And series is often associated with creating

or seeking out more inclusive supportive communities. But you

do get sort of darker themes with series to do with

attachment in both positive and negative themes around

attachment styles, and also grief and loss of children. But

sort of the natural grief that I think all parents go through

speaking as a parent, of just watching your your children grow

up, and, you know, your role as their parent diminishes over

time, and having to sort of let them go and be their own people,

hopefully not marry, you know, the god of the underworld. But

that seems to be a general theme that comes up. Something you

have found with series as well.

I mean, I'm, I'm not, I'm not a parent, and I'm

really glad you brought that up, and that you have those

perspective. Because, you know, that's not, it's not part of my

personal experience. But that does make a lot of sense to me,

you know, there's, at some stage, a child is probably going

to move out, they're going to develop independence, and how,

as a parent, you handle that, I think, is a topic that is

relevant to series.

One was a lot of the thinking around series for

me over the past week or so. It's been around, you know,

like, not everybody's apparent. You know, how can those themes

play out or maybe show up for people in a much broader

context? And I mean, you think about, you know, what that

consciousness in mind of a parent and their child, you

know, you know, that they're eventually going to grow up and

leave you and all that. So you want to prepare them for the

outside world. You want to nurture them and make them their

own solid people find it interesting that series is the

daughter of Saturn. So you get Saturn in Opus opes. Like some

ancient guide about related to some ancient Earth God, I don't

know, I'm not as well versed in the entire Pantheon is think you

are interesting, but if you know anything about that

I'm not. I'm not sure who exactly are referring

to. Oh, oops.

Yeah. Oh, Kiki, yes. Yeah.

Yeah, it doesn't matter. It's

just the mother or that.

I mean, that's, that tells you something right

there, right. Like, how often we either haven't heard of the

mother of a deity. Or, you know, what we do know of female

deities, like, you know, when I was talking about Chariklo, it's

like, the information I could find was just, she's defined by

how she relates to men. Yeah, you know, there's no sort of

like heroic story I could find about Chariklo. I think that

does tell you something.

If you think about that poem, like children of

Saturn or idea of children of Saturn, like there is some a

whirlwind challenge built in to series story. There's a very

Saturnian consciousness sort of involved in series that, you

know, yeah, yeah, there's the sort of inevitable end to a

certain phase or cycle.

Yeah, the theme of cycles of time. And within

any cycle, there is a period of decline. And maybe even the

symbols for Saturn, I mean, all of all of the asteroid goddesses

we're discussing are connected to Saturn in some way. Series

and Palace is the only one who isn't a child of Saturn of the

four Palace is a child of Jupiter of Zeus. But all of the

other three are actually children of Saturn and siblings

of Zeus or Jupiter. Yeah. But Ceres is the one who actually

has a glyph that looks very much like Saturn's glyph. Yeah, the

glyph that's used for Yeah. Yeah, the glyph that's used for

Saturn in in astrology looks like a sickle. And the glyph for

series is like almost the same glyph but just flipped. So that

the sickle, the blade of the sickle is facing up instead of

down.

Yeah. And so I mean, I think that is, that's a

good like, sort of hint at the way. The other asteroids work is

that you know, kind of on its face, it sounds like, Oh, sounds

a lot like the moon. Typically, the moon is where you look for

topics and themes related to parenting, how, you know, when

it's nurtured, even one of the big super significations of

series food, you find that the condition of the moon in a chart

often does say a lot about food. But you can also see, you know,

themes of Saturn involved in series and, you know, even other

architects perhaps. And that is the thing to when you really

like dig into astrology is you see the overlap in kind of all

of them that there is overlap. The way that the planets all

work together, create the sort of overlapping themes or themes

that connect to each other, you know, like the moon and Saturn

cancer opposes Capricorn. So there's kind of an inherent

inbuilt relationship between the moon and Saturn. That yeah, we

don't always like to see the moon, with Saturn, but the, you

know, death and rebirth, the end of life, the beginning of life,

you know, shifting of seasons, but series kind of holds that

archetype or holds a representative representation of

that sort of synthesis, you will,

I think, something that I'm increasingly

recognizing, and my own study and practice of astrology is

that there's a ton of overlap, even between the seven

traditional planets, and they don't fit as neatly into boxes

as we would like them to what sort of gives them clear roles

in traditional astrology is that they're given responsibilities,

and what you're responsible for isn't necessarily an indication

of your total character. So like Mercury and Jupiter are sort of

opposite archetypes just as an example. But there's also a lot

of overlap between those archetypes but what it comes

down to is not sort of like who they are as people or who they

are as characters. But what job they're sort of give And to do

within the scheme sets them in that polarity. But if you were

taking them just as characters in a drama, there is actually a

ton of overlap between all of these figures. And so it makes

sense that the asteroids are inevitably going to overlap

quite a bit in terms of their symbolism, with the planets.

Yeah. I mean, that's how and that's okay shows

up in people's lives, too. You know, you know, there's no peer,

Saturn's out there, there's no pure. Venus is out there. Like

they're, they're all interacting, you know, people

aren't archetypes.

Yeah, yeah. And I think even even the planets

themselves, you know, like, Saturn was sitting here with us,

you know, he might just want to have a good time, like, maybe he

wouldn't feel like being all serious and slow. Maybe he'd

feel like, I don't know, going out and playing bumper cars or

something. But he has a job. And when he's doing his job, he's

not doing bumper cars.

Yeah, well, that's one of the other kind of

significations of series is the sort of duty behind taking care

of, of not just a child, but a community or, you know, your

friends, or, you know, whatever maybe area of Life series might

be pointing to.

It's making me think to, as you were

mentioning, you know, the, the symbolism of series as parent

and her connection to experiences of parenthood. But

you know, as you were learning about series, you were thinking

about the fact that not everybody is a parent, but

everybody is a child, everybody has an experience of caregiving

when they are children. And I think that experience might also

be relevant to the placement of series in your chart, I think in

in Dimitris book, she talks a lot about the connection between

food and parenting and like your parents, how your parents, you

know, some of us have experiences where parents sort

of used food or deny food as sort of reward or punishment,

or, you know, we learn certain things like, you're only going

to get dessert if you finish your whole meal. And we sort of

learned from our parents to ignore what our bodies are

telling us in favor of social norms around food. So that I

mean, that's also a lunar signification like food and

caregiving, for sure, but it's interesting, like, how Ceres

kind of highlights that specific dynamic of how food overlaps

with parenting and how our experience of being fed and our

parents attitude around food affects not only how we eat as

adults, but a lot of other things about our behavior

potentially, or how we feel about the world or about

ourselves.

Yeah, that's what you'll ran into a lot of

strategies, talking about eating disorders, you know, with a

corresponding with a certain series placements. But I just

think I'm making me think about the, you know, in modern

society, we can have the luxury of not having to be overly

concerned with food. Sort of, you know, that hierarchy of

needs, a layer of the hierarchy of needs is just sort of taken

for granted. You know, we sort of have it under control, but

there's so much symbolically throughout history, even today

that goes with food, you know, having if you're going out on a

date, you know, you often go out to dinner. Business meetings are

often dinner meetings, you know, somebody's visiting your house,

it's, there's sort of an implicit expectation to provide

them with food, maybe not as much nowadays, but tradition

traditionally. There's been a lot of a lot around that, but I

don't find my go to is not to look for food, specifically,

when I look at series, but you know, a funny example actually

do have have a series placement that maybe relates to an episode

I did on my other podcast. Killer cosmos is that it's may

not belong on this podcast, but it's, you know, John Wayne Gacy

was known for. He murdered a lot of young men. A lot of parents

lost children to John Wayne Gacy. He also when he was in

prison, the first time he was in prison for a brief stint before

his kind of infamous murder spree, and he discovered a

talent as a chef. He was like the prison's cook and everybody

was like, Oh my God, you're amazing. Gacy and that was

actually what he did for a living for a while after that.

After getting out of prison, and he has series conjunct Mercury

in pisces, like exactly conjunct Mercury in pisces, which, you

know, if you listen to that episode, you can get a more

comprehensive analysis of what's going on with mercury. But you

know, you get both the food element of series with this

placement but also the unfortunately the the kidnapping

of of children which you know, don't freak out about your your

series placement people.

And I mean, that's that's the trouble right

is often the most extreme examples serve as the clearest

illustrations. But for the average person, that's not how

series is going to look. Yeah, to offer a somewhat lighter

example of series in a natal chart, my dog has serious

conjunct his moon, also in Pisces. And I remember, my

partner and I, learning about the different the, you know, the

whole theory of love languages. And we decided just for fun to

do. There's a website where you can like do a test to figure out

what is your love language, and we were like, Let's do one for

Kitsuke kits, who is the dog? So we did the love language test as

if we were kids you responding to the questions and discover

that his love language is definitely receiving gifts. But

of course, if you're a dog, all of your gifts are food. And we

know like, animals. Animals love us because we feed them. Yeah, I

guess two toys would be one, but he's really about the food. And

you know, it's not it's not unusual for animals to be all

about food. But he is one of those dogs that's particularly

food motivated, like, yeah, if if he thinks there's even a

slight chance that there might be food, he does not want you to

touch him. He does not want you to talk to him. He's like, what,

show me the money. Like, I know there's peanut butter somewhere.

Give me the peanut butter. Don't talk to me until it's in front

of me. Yeah. So it's very, it's interesting, actually, because I

had to. Sometimes there are funny ways that we project on to

our pets. And there have been times where I've been like, you

don't really love me, you're just using me for food. You

know, because the way I experience love and nurturing is

more through touch or being spoken to. And the way he

experiences nurturing is through being fed, which is not as big

of a thing for me. So I had to kind of, you know, take a step

back and realize, like, his way of receiving love is through his

stomach. And that's a totally valid way of feeling like loved

and appreciated and safe and nurtured. And it's different

from how I experience, love and feeling safe and nurtured. But

that, you know, doesn't make his way any less valid or important.

doesn't mean he's just using me for food. It's like there's a

connection. I think with serious conjunct the moon and the moon

being about how we feel safe. I think it's not just about him,

you know, needing his appetite to be satisfied. It's that if

people are feeding him, he knows that he's safe. He knows that we

love him. That's an assurance that we love him. It's not just

like a hedonistic thing. I think it's a very, very lunar drive in

his case.

Yeah. Well, it's, it's like a baby, right? It's

funny, because it's funny, you even said the bit about like,

would you even love me if, if I wasn't giving you food right

now, you know, I remember having sort of thought, from time to

time. More jokingly or ironically, with the, you know,

my son when he was a baby, that so much of the bonding really

though that goes on between you. And a baby is the the feeding

process, you know, my happiest memories are, you know, waking

up in the middle of the night to feed my son, you know, and

sitting in a rocking chair. And those are like the moments that

I want to I just want to think about them. I feel so much more

connected to him. Something I have to do sometimes when you

know, when you inevitably lose that connection from time to

time, you know, which is just inevitable as a parent.

And there's like, a broader sense to you in

which you know, it's easy to feel like we live in an

impersonal universe that does not care about us. I mean, it

may very well be objectively true. But when we are being fed

and nourished by the world, it makes us feel like we live in a

universe that actually cares about us. Think in that broader

sense, like series, as you know, the goddess of agriculture and

the food that we get from the earth, there's a sense where,

you know, when the earth is providing food for us, we feel

like the world is safe. We feel like the world cares about us.

So thank you to Kitsune for teaching that lesson. Because I

think maybe it maybe it's part of what you were saying earlier,

too, that, you know, both of us living in, in North America,

when you know, being privileged in the ways that we are

privileged food is something we can easily take for granted. And

so I don't make the can I make the connection more between food

and money than I do between food and love? And so that was like,

you know, when I saw myself reacting to my sweet, innocent

dog being like, Do you really love me? I had to be like, okay,

come on. Like, he doesn't have any concept of of money or like

material things. This is very much connected to to love and

bonding for him. And maybe there's a bit of a disconnect

between food and bonding for me, because, you know, I for one,

take it for granted when for another associate it with just

like, it's another bill. Yeah.

Yeah, I almost find, ironically, that like,

like food for me is ends up being something that I end up

being really cheap. Sometimes, not all the time, but that I you

know, I can be a little frivolous. With my spending in

other ways. Maybe food is not the first place I look to feel

nourished. Which maybe, you know, resonates a little bit

with my personal placement with with series, the one that

Tristan and I actually happen to share is a series in Pisces

sleep pretty close to the midheaven. And when I think

about that, I you know, think about like, what makes me feel

nourished, or something what? Like, what do I feed off of, in

a sense, like, it's like I meaning you know, when things

when something gives, I can find meaning in something or find on

the overuse the word spiritual. It's like, someone was like the

Pisces go to word, but find something that resonates in my

soul, if you will like that. It's like, oh, I want that. I

want more of that. Give me all of that.

Yeah, the Well, it's, it's interesting. So I

have a series in Pisces on my midheaven like Kyle does. And I

actually did work in food service for most of my adult

life. I worked in food service from the age of 18, until I was

in my late 20s. So you know, I spent, I spent over a decade

working in food service. I didn't like it. So you know, and

I see series on my midheaven. I'm not like, Oh, I'm happy

about that. Particular. Yeah, like it's relevant. But I don't

want it to be relevant like that, because that wasn't a fun

time. Not saying that it can't be. You know, there are people

who work in that field. We're having a great time, but it was

not for me. But you know, that's, that's certainly a

signification. But I think it's interesting. It's in the ninth

house, both of us have the midheaven in the ninth house.

And we're both astrologers. And there is a way in which

astrology is a service of giving care and nurturing. But more in

a watery sense. Like it's more about spiritual and emotional

nurturing, as opposed to the physical tangible, you know,

cooking someone a meal, I think, you know, series in, in Pisces,

in the ninth house, might have more to do with, you know,

helping somebody figure out their existential crisis or, you

know, listening to them when they're having problems and just

being, you know, a supportive, you know, sort of shoulder for

them on an emotional level. Yeah. Helping someone, you know,

sort out, you know, a spiritual crisis that they might be having

that kind of thing. And I also I worked in the church for a long

time, too.

I mean, it wasn't for me, it did massage for a

long time. 10 years. Just another way of taking care of

people, right. Do you know when you think about it, seems kind

of obvious to me now. Maybe I wouldn't have thought of when

looking at series series before, you know, like, oh food, what,

but that sort of community orientation or wanting to, you

know, create a safe environment. What are Tristan and I doing

right now we're creating podcasts that I think, in part

is an expression or part of an effort to want to kind of create

a safe and supportive community around astrology, you know, find

other like minded people.

And we both have Jupiter in the 11th house in our

charts and series in Pisces is ruled by Jupiter. So she's in

the ninth house, but she's being ruled by a planet that's in the

11th house. And there's that connection between spirituality

and building community. And Sirius is about nurturing and

providing care and support. So I think it all fits together

nicely. I think something significant that really sold

Kyle and I on the significance of the asteroids, at least, you

know, series in particular, is that the way that Kyle and I met

is he made a post on an astrology subreddit, asking if

people wanted free readings, and within two minutes of him making

that post, I just happened to be scrolling Reddit at the time,

that within two minutes, I responded. And we have the chart

for when he posted this, which is how we, you know, started

corresponding in the first place. And at the time, he

posted it series was in Pisces. And Kyle was having a series

return. And series happened to be in the 11th house. So I had

had my series return, you know, sort of exactly a little bit

before that, but it was like, pretty much exactly on your

series. Kyle, when you posted that. And I think inevitably,

what happened is, we recorded a podcast episode entirely about

the asteroids. So clearly series was like, you know, I need to

get my name out there. So I'm gonna get these two astrologers

together and convince them that they should spend, you know,

half an hour discussing me on a podcast.

Yeah, yeah, I, we're both having ninth house

yours as well. So that sign was activated. Yeah, well, there

were like other transits, you could point to is maybe being

significant. I was like, the most exact and the most obvious.

Just found that pretty interesting and convincing.

Yeah, that was pretty uncanny. Yeah, and it's

just, you know, both of us being in a year where the midheaven is

activated. And both of us trying to start up an astrology career.

It's just it's very funny. It's, it does feel very faded when you

see that in a chart. Yeah, there's, I'm also looking at the

chart for the discovery of series, which is really fun.

Nice. Interestingly, both Jupiter and Saturn are in the

first house in the chart of series is discovery. Jupiter, of

course, being a brother to series and Saturn being the

father of series. So it's kind of cool that both of those

planets are quite prominent, they're in the first house and

Leo series herself is actually conjunct the midheaven in her

own discovery chart. In the sign of Taurus, which seems like a

very appropriate series sign, this series having so much lunar

symbolism, it's kind of fitting that, you know, she would be in

the sign of the Moon's exaltation, when she decided to

show up on our radar for the first time. And Pluto is also in

the eighth house in the chart of series is discovery. Which I

think is kind of interesting given that there is, you know,

the significant part of series mythology has to do with the

underworld and Pluto is kind of the main adversary in series is

most well known mythological tale. And you know, he's right

there in in the eighth house, which is about the underworld.

Yeah. Is there an aspect with series at

all? Pluto is overcoming series via a sextile

so not a bad aspect. Pluto in serious discovery chart is in

Pisces in the eighth house and the end of the series is in

Taurus and the 10th Yeah, so you know It's it's not a tense

relationship necessarily, although Pluto does hold some

power in it. Yeah. And Sirius was actually also retrograde

during her discovery.

It's, you know, interesting. Unless there's like

other significations, we want to talk about, I have just a couple

of like, my weird kooky a tinfoil hat ideas maybe about

about series.

Those are my favorite ideas, please share?

Well, I would be interested to study the

relationship between Pluto and Ceres in maybe charts, that the

charts of people who may be live those those themes out, you

know, very visibly, and be nice to sort of think of, you know,

the degree to which Pluto can be considered malefic, right. It's

not everybody's favorite planet. I wouldn't strictly call them

alethic. But, you know, to whatever degree you could

describe Buddha that way, I'd like to think of of series as

like a benefic. Maybe. It's, I mean, obviously, it's, it's hard

to. Alright, does feel like a lot of the new bodies that we're

bringing in don't they're not happy bodies, they're not happy.

They're not bringing in happy topics, you know, we could use a

little more use of morbid ethics and astrology. But um, yeah, I

don't know that the fact that series got kind of promoted as

Pluto was being demoted, and that they are actually very

similar size. That series kind of has this special status, you

know, in the asteroid belt, and Pluto gets the sort of special

status in the Kuiper Belt is sort of bodies of significance,

you know?

Yeah, almost now, I almost don't ever want to

look at either one in a chart without the other. Yeah. And I

think that series of all of them, I think, if

there was gonna be a takeaway, that just from an astrological

or astronomical perspective, like it warrants bringing in to

at least be considered an equal weight to Pluto. I don't think

it's been studied is as thoroughly as Pluto. And weirdly

hasn't been taken as seriously as Pluto, even though we

discovered series was over 100 years before Pluto.

I have Pluto is very recent. Yeah,

we were like all over Pluto.

When we discovered it. And it's

interesting because series was I mean, I think it probably has to

do with a climate around astrology. I don't think in the

early 1800s That there was much of industry like astrology kind

of fell out of favor between the Renaissance. Yeah. And like

Victorian Age. Yeah, like that. It really started picking up

again, I guess in like the 1930s. So I wonder if you know,

the discovery of Sirius just kind of fell in that fallow

period for astrology? I'd need to look into that more to verify

that that's the case. But I wonder if that's what's going on

there. Because Sirius was declared a planet I believe when

she was first discovered.

Yeah, but you know, what makes sense is that it was

in the 1850s that Sirius was demoted to an asteroid. And even

though they're very similar bodies, I think Pluto has a lot

more mass overall. But during that period, from the 1850s, to

2006, was considered an asteroid. I mean, it was only

really in like the 1960s or so that people sort of going to

using the asteroids and astrology, maybe just kind of by

virtue of its designation, label, like it didn't get

treated the same way as Pluto.

Yeah. And it's hard not to see the symbolism

that Dimitra George was really trying to make the astrology

community aware of by talking about the asteroids, that

there's, you know, when when things become culturally

relevant, or become popular, there's, that's a sign that

something is in the sort of popular consciousness that's

important to look at. And, you know, when you have these

goddess figures, starting to become important in astrology,

you know, we're in the business of reading signs, and that is

possibly a sign of, you know, those topics really entering the

public consciousness in a meaningful way. So, it's almost

like, you know, the, the topics of pious it's this very, there's

a lot of gender stuff with the asteroids, too. Because, you

know, men illness as the default. The fact that the

asteroids are goddesses, kind of makes them sort of unique,

because they stand in contrast to the default, you know, the,

the maleness of the traditional planets isn't, you know, like as

prominent a part of their symbolism, but the gender of the

asteroids is discussed a lot as being relevant to their

symbolism and sort of, you know, the, the asteroids becoming

important, during, you know, women's liberation. And now, you

know, we've had like Pluto demoted and series promoted, you

know, in astronomical terms, and, you know, public awareness

around issues of gender is, you know, changing and evolving,

and, you know, non binary people are becoming more and more

visible. Like, yeah, I guess there's just, it's interesting

that that astronomically did seem to coincide with a change

of priorities or change of visibility, I guess, is the best

way to put it. In our culture, where, you know, series had been

kind of ignored, you know, because she's the incorrect

gender and was just around at the incorrect time, is now

becoming more and more relevant, and Pluto is becoming

potentially a bit less relevant as the sort of patriarchal God

that is actually get way out there. Are we into

the weeds, but, you know, the 1920s, that was a time that was

really kind of when the Women's Liberation Movement was picking

up, like, yeah, women's suffrage, but also kind of

faced, like a bit of a backlash to I do find it interesting that

the asteroids, I mean, they were always there, but they sort of

showed up, or we started paying more attention to them, maybe

when we needed sort of different bodies to project specific ideas

or themes on to, you know, like about parenthood, you know,

which sort of fell under the moon broadly. But maybe as

collectively as a society, we needed to explore other themes

around that more specific themes, kind of separately, but

meaning, and that could get into a whole nother world of

discussion. Like, why does astrology work? Anybody wants to

ask that one? You know?

Yeah, please, please ask a question with fun

find out episode. Yeah, that would be another special episode

where we only focus on that topic, I think.

Yeah, that Yeah.

All right. So we have we have Juno up next. Juno

was the third asteroid to be discovered. She is named for the

the highest goddess in the Roman Pantheon, and the wife of

Jupiter. So the equivalent of Hera in Greek mythology, the

wife of Zeus, there isn't as much sort of fun astronomical

stuff I discovered about Juno compared to what Kyle dug up

about series. Although One fun fact about Juno is that she is

very reflective. So even though Juno is not the largest of the

asteroids, she was discovered before a number of the larger

ones because of this reflective property.

It's interesting, it makes sense with being a

planet about relationships and companionship, being very

reflective.

Yeah, that actually does really fit,

doesn't it? I shouldn't I shouldn't underestimate the

symbolism of these little astronomical details.

Yeah, they all have little, little things that are

like, Oh, does that make sense?

Yeah, it does fit. Do you know? I mean, it's

probably more I'm more familiar with, you know, the Greek

mythology with the mythology of Hera. I don't have any, you

know, particular stories memorized to tell but a

predominant theme in Harrah's myths is her relationship with

Zeus, and how rocky that relationship is. And yet, she

remains very committed and loyal to the relationship. I mean,

Zeus is notoriously bad at monogamy. And Hera, you know,

remains faithful and actually turns away potential suitors

quite consistently, which does, I think, with Juno and Juno's

signal vacations having to do with marriage and relationship?

There is that question of what makes Juno different from Venus,

which represents marriage and relationship. And I think maybe

one of the key significations that distinguishes Juno or makes

Juno a little bit more specific is that quality of loyalty and

fidelity. Yeah, devotion. Venus indicates relationships and

marriage but doesn't necessarily indicate. Like where Venus is

placed in your chart might say something about your

relationship values or probably, yeah, or what your marriage is

like, whereas the story of Juno is very specific, like Venus

could be potentially about any type of relationship or any type

of marriage.

I believe Aphrodite had many lovers, right? Yeah,

Aphrodite was not faithful to her husband. And

it's there. There's a bit of a contrast between Aphrodite and

Hera when it comes to relationships where Aphrodite I

don't think wanted to be married, and was not happy with

her husband. And had numerous affairs whereas Hera was like,

ride or die. You know, yeah, I am committed to this, I, you

know, I'm not going to fool around with other people. So

that is sort of like a distinctive, like, subcategory

of relationships that I think Juno's specifically represents.

And so, you know, in a birth chart, I think Juno potentially

points to the issues around loyalty and relationships and

what we're willing to put up with in our relationships. Like

where is the boundary? Are we willing to put up with too much

in order to remain like loyal to our partners? And the Gina was

one where neither of us found as much sort of stuff going on in

our own charts of the charts of people we knew where we were

like, Oh, that really stands out as like a Juno situation. I

don't know maybe you've maybe you've discovered something

since we last spoke Pyle about Juno and a chart that stood out

to you.

I think but yeah, do you know? What's most

something I want listeners to bear in mind is that for all my

astrological genius, I haven't had a lot of time to sit with

with all these with these these archetypes right. So I kind of

want to you know, qualify my these are kind of hot takes or

you know, not you know, fully cooked thoughts about about Juno

but kind of relating to the idea that the asteroid sort of

bringing some some focus on two topics that are generally fall

under the umbrella of of other planets, like Juno maybe with

Venus and marriage, and sort of drawing attention to sort of the

other side of that, or sort of the maybe directing it towards

on backup a little. So think of Hera right? In the ship that she

had to put up with being married to Zeus, who is out sexing up

the world, right? And it's actually there's a really good

show on Netflix called Blood of Zeus, an anime I keep meaning to

watch that. It's really good. Yeah, you should totally watch

it. And I mean, hair is not depicted very, very kindly.

She's not very nice in the show, but you know, just thinking

about, like, traditionally, what was expected of women in

marriage, you know, to put up with your husband's shit and be

happy about it, because that is, you know, marriage is like,

that's your goal. That's what you want. You want to be a good

wife and get a good marriage. I feel like Juno's sort of points

out the qualities that go into devotion and commitment. And

what goes into marriages in long term partnerships in general,

which is a certain degree of putting up with with people you

should I mean, you can't have a relationship without you know,

that I know that are qualities about me that you know, might

get under people that I love skin sometimes but they love me

so you know, they, they they don't pay too much attention to

it or they they brush over it or you know, we get in spats about

it every now and then like that. That's part of of you being

committed to Somebody is accepting them for their their

flaws, their shortcomings. But I'm kind of with the Goddesses

sort of highlighting more of a feminine perspective on things.

Sort of. I don't know exactly when tuna was discovered, but I

Do you think about women's liberation? And like? Do you

ever watch Mad Men? How they did not watch me, man? Oh, yes,

I do know that they dig into issues of gender

in that particular world a lot in the show, but I've never

watched it.

Yeah, there's a lot of, you know, successful hotshot

men like going out and just sleeping with whoever they

could, while their wives, you know, stayed at home and did all

the cooking and cleaning and put up with it. And eventually, a

lot of them didn't, you know, and I think that those are

topics that became really relevant and made, you know, I

think women in general, started to be able to get into a

position where they could make demands of husbands to, to

degree that where it's just kind of accepted, more now, worrying

that right, but I don't think most people when they get

married now expect to have their wives you know, stay home and be

barefoot and pregnant, and, you know, let them frolic around and

do whatever they want, you know, there's more of a reciprocity,

mutual expectation, and I believe that is one of the

things that you know, was supposed to signify is an

emphasis on equal partnership.

Yeah, definitely.

I know, for me, I have Juno opposing my moon bear

very tightly. And I would say that is the element of judo that

I can identify with, you know, it's an opposition, which maybe

means some sort of conflict there. But it's actually

something that I've always sought out, like, almost to my

detriment in some cases where like, I needed things to be so

equal, that was sort of uncomfortable with any sort of

imbalance. Maybe go too far in trying to correct it or

something. Or you have Juno conjunct your Jupiter in your

11th? House? Right, Tristan?

Yeah, which is, I mean, I feel like that should

be it's interesting, because Juno and Jupiter are the married

couple. And they're within two degrees of each other in my

chart. So they're actually together in my chart. Yeah. And,

like, wildly opposing my moon, like they're pretty far apart.

But there is a sign based opposition going on there. I

don't know. I'm just thinking about my own attitude. There's

this sense to, in I mean, it's, it's hard, especially as you

know, a modern reader, not to look at the stories of Zeus and

Hera and just feel like this is a very dark archetype, because

it says so much about the subjugation of women in the

institution of marriage. Another another sort of aspects of the

Juno archetype is jealousy. And there's a way in in the

mythology in the stories of Zeus and Harrah's marriage, Hera

didn't really have any power. And the only power she did have

was to attack the women that Zeus became involved with. And

so there are a lot of stories of hair getting sort of pissed off

at zoo says various consorts and giving them trouble. Because of,

you know, what was considered to be her jealousy, I think there's

an interesting reflection in that of how women's needs in

relationships have been characterized as an

inconvenience to men, you know, and that's, I mean, there's any

stories too, I mean, it's also hard for me trying to find

myself in the stories is also hard for me as a queer person,

because they are very heteronormative. But I think you

know, even beyond the issue of like, relationships between

women and men, these stories tell us something about power

dynamics in relationships in general, obviously, the dynamics

between women and men who look a certain way but you know, that's

not the those are not the only two sort of categories of human

in which that power imbalance shows itself there is a power

imbalance in certain relationships where you know,

some people's needs are taken seriously, and some people's

needs are seen as an inconvenience and when people

whose needs are seen as an inconvenience to the dominant

group, try To get those needs met, there are not usually like

straightforward avenues for them to get those needs met, they

can't just declare I have these needs, like I need to be

fulfilled in my marriage as much as you do. And it's your job to

meet those needs. So you're kind of left with no other choice.

It's like, you know, Hera is not Harrah's not jealous. You know,

it's one of those. There's a way in which, you know, we

invalidate the needs and emotions of people that we treat

like crap so that we can continue justifying how we treat

them. And I think this is one of those cases where, you know,

what gets labeled as jealousy is actually like a cry for help and

communication. Yeah, it's a it's really convenient, you know,

when we're treating somebody like crap, and they've finally

had enough, and, you know, the situate there's such a power

imbalance that the only way they can communicate is, you know,

through like in the stories of Zeus and Hera, Hera, accosts

Zeus as lovers, there's, there's no other avenue, she has to

communicate with zoos that like this is not okay. And, you know,

and instead of going, you know, I need to look at my own

behavior, it's really easy to just say, well, that's her

problem. And she's just being jealous. And she's just being,

you know, crazy, which is another, you know, word, another

very problematic word that gets leveled at people in

relationships all the time when they're just like trying to

communicate their needs, and it's inconvenient to their

partners. So oh, they're just, they're just crazy, like they're

irrational their emotions are getting the better of them.

Yeah, I always seen that as one of the like, big.

The key components of male privilege is that kind of

privilege to be dismissive of the, you know, the peculiar the

curiosities and the particularities of women's

issues, you know, it there isn't a bit of that diminutive, like,

quality to it. I mean, obviously, it gets very

complicated, but I think that those are like, really excellent

points. And I think, you know, you kind of see with with Hera,

even in that dynamic, the power gap and power dynamic in that

relationship is so deep set that yeah, here is only you can't

really confront Zeus directly. And so, you know, she has to go

kind of alternative directions or builds up and, and she gets

hysterical, right.

Yeah, another another good keyword, and

Zeus is able to discredit and dismiss para, as

you know, yeah, that crazy jealous goddess Hera.

So I wonder if you know, in a chart, Juno can

point to a desire for equality and relationships, like you

were, you know, saying with your own example, and perhaps point

to, you know, how our experience is how we experience power

within relationships. And I think, you know, the sort of

emergence of Juno as an asteroid that deserves a place in

astrology is, you know, perhaps a sign that we're starting to

question. Traditional relationships is, you know,

like, Hera is sort of the the model monogamous, and it's like,

is monogamy working? And if it's not working, but it's still a

valuable way of structuring our relationships, how do we get it

to work in a way that's fulfilling for, you know, the

partners that are involved in a monogamous relationship?

Yeah, it should be a negotiation and is just

supposed to like a mandate that one party sort of declares an

over the other one.

I mean, maybe relevant to these issues of

questioning relationship structures and questioning at

least what we think of as traditional models of

relationships. I was non monogamous I was polyamorous for

many years and changed you know my I am no longer you know,

polyamorous, I'm very happily monogamous now. But sort of

going through a period of questioning monogamy and

questioning monogamous relationships was very

insightful for me. I mean, I don't know if I can connect this

at all to Juno's placement in my own chart being you know,

conjunct Jupiter, I can't Yeah. All right. Well, I'm looking

forward to hearing what you have to say about this. Yeah, and I'm

also looking forward to us getting to palace and, you know,

palaces ability to notice patterns, because I feel like

you are very skilled at that, and you've got a prominent

palace in your chart. But yeah, that that period of questioning

monogamy, you know, ultimately I did decide Monogamy was the

correct relationship structure for me. But I went through a

period of questioning it. And something that I learned during

that period of questioning is that if people like polyamorous

relationships are becoming increasingly visible, and, you

know, one of the sort of challenges of polyamory is that

in order to do it successfully, it requires a lot of open

communication and a lot of negotiating boundaries and

expectations. But what's interesting to me about that is

that, you know, it's sort of we, we expect that non monogamous

relationships are going to require so much communication

and negotiation, but we underestimate how much

communication and negotiation is required to keep monogamous

relationships functional. It's, and there's a way because

monogamy is the default setting. There is a way that I think

people get into relationships with an expectation of monogamy.

And what monogamy means to the people in that relationship is

never discussed, right? It's like, does monogamy mean that I

don't hold hands with my friend like a platonic hand holding?

Yeah. Is that you know, am I? Is it okay for me to flirt with

people online? Like where? Where do we draw the line, that is

something that needs to be discussed. And not just assumed,

but because when something is the default, a lot of things are

left up to assumptions, and not communicated. And I think

they're, I don't think that either polyamory or monogamy is

better than the other. But I think where monogamy often fails

is that people rely on assumptions and don't

communicate their expectations out of the gate, because we're

sort of able to follow this default script for our

relationships. And it's not sort of like in our face all the time

that oh, we really need to think about this, or we really need to

talk about our feelings on this. Whereas with polyamory, it's

like, you know, very, very clear that like, oh, we really need to

talk about our feelings about this issue, because there is no

cultural script for us to follow. We're making things up

as we go along.

I think I just think you just heard a swish,

of, you know, like, the basket. You just nailed it. No, that's

exactly it. Because we don't have that cultural script, like

you said, like we don't have, it's not implicit or implied

anymore, you know, those things do need to be discussed. And I

think that mean, that's kind of what just mean, the asteroids in

general, like are splitting off these these topics, these things

that are relevant, that need to be kind of brought to our

attention, sort of separated from kind of the idea of

marriage and partnership in general. Because that whole idea

has gotten a little, you know, there's some problems in there

that maybe we need to sort through. So we need something

else to like, reflect that on.

Yeah, it's like highlighting that specific issue

and sort of putting a neon sign, you know, this subset of

relationship issues that, you know, is a sign that like, you

guys really need to examine this.

Yeah. Yeah. And just thinking about you and your

chart is actually something that I looked up, because I remember

now, and so much, has been a blur of researching asteroids. I

forgot about it. But I'm really telling me that you met Keith

was like, at the very end of your seventh house here, right?

Yeah, yeah. The very tail end of my seventh

house year, like, two or three days before it ended?

Yeah. And I was kind of looking at the dates and

I mean, it wasn't perfect, but I imagined that the period

building up to that, that, you know, I haven't really gone into

huge detail, but I mentioned the period that preceded meeting

Keith entailed a lot of reevaluate, reevaluating nice

and getting some new ideas about how you want to proceed and

relationships which you know, coincides with Saturn Return and

seventh house and everything but Uranus was also transiting it

was in Taurus at the time. It just kind of gotten in there I

think. Now, if I identified if it had gotten to Jupiter and

Juno yet in your chart, but you know, you kind of undergoing a

be considered maybe a radical change in your relationship

style around Uranus transiting Juno, that sort of tie in to

that that theme also having you know, Juno and Jupiter Trine is

the ruler of your seventh. And pretty closely

to

just given from what you said, it sounds like

you have lived in and done a lot of thinking about about the the

topics related to Juno. So

that's the good job. Kyle is a really good

astrologer, I just want to take a moment to point that out to

everyone who's thinking about getting an astrology reading

that you will get insights like this from this human. So do it.

Get a reading from Kyle. Because yeah, that's, that's exactly it.

Thank you for the plug Tristan, you are at least a

equally good astrologer. And I think the thing is that it's

really hard to get those kinds of insights on yourself. It's

true, Google looking at your own chart, like look at it all day

you need, it's like cutting your own hair, you know, you to

really get a nice, good clean cut, like you need granite, I

cut my own hair now ever since the pandemic, but I do a pretty

good job. But it you know, there's angles and spots that

you can't see that that other people can seeing over the, you

know, a rating with a excellent astrologer like Tristan will

help you get that kind of insight for me too, you know,

I'm alright.

It is it is true. It's because I think we

tend to we fixate on certain things, and we tend to find what

we're looking for. And that's when it really helps to have

someone else's perspective. Because I would not have caught

that. And that is like eerily accurate. Where it was a very

radical change. I went from a polyamorous relationship and

from only being in polyamorous relationships for almost a

decade to deciding this isn't for me anymore. And the reasons,

you know, and this isn't a criticism of polyamory in

general, you know, I'm sure it works great for some people. But

I think the reasons that I was, were not the healthiest reasons.

And I went through this long period of really examining what

my reasons were for seeking that kind of relationship structure

and whether or not my needs were being met within it. And the

conclusion I came to is that my needs were not being met within

that particular structure. Yeah, so it was, it was a pretty

drastic change. Thank you, Uranus, and Juno, for helping me

figure my shit out.

Yeah. Well, are we think that's all we have for

Juno or

I actually have a really good chart example. For

a Juno placement. I have Katharine Hepburn's chart, you

Hathorne Hepburn probably doesn't need any introduction.

Really. She was. I think the most I think she's won the most

Oscars of any actress. She was like a classical Hollywood

actress. Katharine Hepburn was born with Scorpio rising. Her

ascendant was at seven degrees of Scorpio, and her Juno was at

five degrees of Scorpio and retrograde which may or may not

be relevant, but she was a very, very fiercely independent woman

who married briefly, but she described herself as not being

such a great wife. And she was very famous for being in a

relationship with actor Spencer Tracy, who was her co star in

nine different films. And Spencer Tracy was they were, I

believe, both married when they met and started having their

affair. And Spencer Tracy actually remained married to his

wife, even while having the affair. They never separated.

Katharine Hepburn never wanted a marriage with him. So there was

no like competition in that sense. I guess that something

may be unusual about this relationship for Catherine is

that while she was generally so independent when it came to

Tracy, she was very devoted. She actually spent several years

Who's taking care of him when his health started declining in

the 60s, she took a five year break from her career, which is

really unusual for her. And a lot of people, you know,

described her as being like very, like she changed when she

was around Spencer Tracy, she just lit up around to him and

she'd say, you know, like she would do anything for him. So

it's just that when I think about Zeus and Hera and

mythology I think about you know, the constant affairs and

this weird contrast between you know, Zeus is infidelity and

Harris devotion, like her almost single minded devotion. And I

guess, you know, maybe there's some of those themes kind of

coming up there where there's like, you know, an affair

happening outside of a marriage, but there is also that theme of

devotion.

Yeah. Surely was Aphrodite married to slipping my

mind?

Her Festus but I don't think she was happy with

that marriage. And she had an affair famously with areas that

the gods shamed them for.

Yeah, they were kind of obsessed with each other

a little bit. Surely, from gather it was. I mean, there's a

lot of jealousy with Aphrodite, actually, which we'll get to

Palace here. After that, he was very jealous of palace. And all

the time that palace got to spend with Aries.

Do we want to move on to palace?

Oh, well, listeners, Kyle here. I imagine

you've been so enraptured by Tristan and I's riveting and

incisive commentary of the asteroids, that you didn't even

realize that we are rapidly approaching the two hour mark.

And we only finished discussing two promised for asteroids. Now

you're probably thinking, wow, Tristan, and Kyle. Those guys

are pretty hardcore. And you're right. We are hardcore. But we

also care about you listeners. And just like eating too much in

one sitting in give you a bit of a tummy ache. Taking in too much

information can have similar effects on your mind. Which is

why we would like to give you an opportunity to digest everything

by breaking this episode into two more reasonably portioned

but equally delicious courses for the Augustus glutes out

there listening on release day, you will find a second helping

waiting for you tomorrow. But for the rest of you. You can

continue on with palace and Vesta at your leisure by

download inside beat this episode. As always, if you have

a question you'd like to hear answered on astrology hotline,

shoot us an email at astrology hotline pod@gmail.com Thanks for