Shownotes
A Nigerian-born Anglican priest who spent years praying the gay away, married a woman under church pressure, came out in 1994, was diagnosed with HIV in 2003, and founded the first inclusive church in Nigeria - now operating across 22 countries.
Summary
Jide Macaulay grew up in Nigeria, the son of a powerful conservative theologian. His father was not available emotionally and would later support a Nigerian bill that could imprison his own son for 14 years simply for being gay. He called Jide a disgrace. But before any of that, Jide tried to fix himself. He fasted for 40 days, pleading with God to remove his same-sex feelings. When a woman said yes to a relationship, he believed the prayer had worked. It hadn't. The feelings never disappeared. After four years of pressure from church leaders and family, they married. Three years in, Jide sat his wife down and told her the truth. The marriage became acrimonious. He came out as gay in 1994.
Eight years later, in January 2003, Jide tested positive for HIV. He got it through sex, and he says so directly. The first person he called to share the news cast him out and called him a slut. But before sunset that same day, he called someone else - a friend who drove straight to his house, packed him a bag, ran him a bath, and left the bedroom door open through the night to keep watch. For six years after his diagnosis, Jide travelled the journey with only his medical team and one other person. It took him 15 years to speak about it publicly.
In 2006, Jide founded the House of Rainbow in the heart of Lagos - Nigeria's first inclusive Christian ministry for LGBTQ people. It now operates across 22 countries, supporting people seeking asylum, survivors of trafficking, and people living with HIV. He also served as chaplain at the Mildmay Hospital in London, walking the wards of the institution Princess Diana made famous by holding the hands of people with AIDS.
Key Moments
- [02:49] A happy, holy homosexual - how Jide introduces himself, along with Mama Jide, a name connected to his maternal spirit
- [02:56] The McCauley legacy - growing up as the son of a conservative Nigerian theologian who was emotionally unavailable and would later support anti-gay legislation
- [04:06] The Bible as weapon - how scripture is selectively applied, and why Jide grounds his theology in Psalm 139: "We are fearfully and wonderfully made"
- [08:39] Praying the gay away - 40 days of fasting, a girlfriend mistaken for a cure, and a marriage built on church pressure rather than truth
- [10:53] Coming out in 1994 - telling his wife, the collapse of the marriage, and the acrimony that followed
- [14:58] Diagnosed in January 2003 - an HIV diagnosis eight years after coming out, the question of whether it was God's punishment, and the decision that it was not
- [16:31] Six years of solitude - travelling the journey with almost no one, and why Jide insists nobody should be rushed into sharing their status
- [19:42] Two phone calls on the same day - the friend who called him a slut, and the one who drove over, ran a bath, and left the door open all night
- [22:36] The Bible and stigma - why scripture specifically commands compassion for the sick, and the Princess Diana moment at Mildmay as a biblical image
- [25:46] House of Rainbow - founded in Lagos in 2006, now in 22 countries, supporting LGBTQ Christians, asylum seekers, trafficking survivors, and people living with HIV
- [31:40] Speaking directly to someone falling apart - Jide's message that HIV is not a punishment for queerness, and that the sacredness of sharing who you are is never an abomination
Dedication
Jide remembers Reverend Upazila, the first priest in Africa to publicly declare her HIV status, whom he met at a conference in Stellenbosch in 2009. She died during the Covid pandemic in 2020.
About Reverend Jide Macaulay
Reverend Jide Macaulay is a Nigerian-born Anglican priest and the founder of the House of Rainbow, Nigeria's first inclusive LGBTQ Christian ministry, now operating in 22 countries. He served as chaplain at the Mildmay Hospital in London and has been living with HIV since 2003. He describes himself as a happy, holy homosexual.
Resources
If you have been affected by the themes in this episode, support is available at tht.org.uk.
This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:
Podtrac - https://analytics.podtrac.com/privacy-policy-gdrp
Transcripts
Dan Hall
Welcome to 'HIV: The Morning After'. I'm Dan Hall. I'm a documentary producer and director. I've spent my entire adult life watching ignorance and prejudice play out around HIV. And frankly, I'm tired of it. And I'm sure many of you are too.
This podcast is an attempt to do something about that. By doing what I do best, interviewing people and letting them tell their own stories.
I can make these episodes, but I can't make people listen to them or find them on their algorithms. That beats down to you. Please rate, review and share 'HIV: The Morning After'.
Right then, let's get started.
::Dan Hall
everend Jide McCauley. In the: ::Dan Hall
He thought it was maybe a punishment from God. He thought maybe he was an abomination, but he was wrong. Today, Jide is an Anglican priest. He's a global activist. And he is the man who founded Nigeria's first inclusive church. This isn't just a story about surviving a virus. It is also one about reclaiming the divine. Reverend Jide McCauley, welcome to 'HIV: The Morning After'.
::Jide Macaulay
Thank you so much. It's good to be here. It's HIV the morning after. And and in addition to that introduction, there are two things that people also call me. They call me Mama Jide, because I'm very much connected with my maternal spirit, and especially the divine, you know, of my mother. And, and also the other phrase that, I have often called myself is a happy, holy homosexual.
::Dan Hall
So those are all excellent adjectives.
::Jide Macaulay
Absolutely.
::Dan Hall
So then let's start with your father's legacy. What did it mean to be a McCauley in the church?
::Jide Macaulay
Even though my father, you know, raised myself on my siblings in a very conservative Christian environment. My dad, especially, was not, available emotionally, you know, to respond to any of my concerns or even give me the opportunity to address my feelings, especially when it comes to my sexual orientation, you know, and identity.
::Dan Hall
So then, Jide, where did you grow up?
::Jide Macaulay
I grew up in in Nigeria. I was born in London, but I grew up in Nigeria, so my formative years were in Nigeria.
::Dan Hall
As someone who sits outside of faith watching it, I often see a pattern where biblical passages that align with people's existing beliefs, a kind of read as literal truth, whereas other passages like those about food or clothing or social customs that don't align with people's existing beliefs, well, those people just go, oh, it doesn't matter because it's it's just metaphor.
::Dan Hall
How do you navigate that and how do you navigate people being like that, picking and choosing faith for their own, narrow minded conveniences?
::Jide Macaulay
Thank you so much. And I think the first place is for, lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender Christians to know who they are and who they are, especially in alignment with the Christian faith. And once we get to that point, you know, everything else, it doesn't really matter because you see, the reality with with the Bible and with theology is that, you know, a lot of people have used the Bible for whatever position they the.
::Jide Macaulay
We see it in politics today. There are people in parliaments across the world who are using the Bible, you know, against any community that they do not like.
::Dan Hall
How does it make you feel as somebody who works professionally within, the religious space, when you witness people using your religion to demonise others?
::Jide Macaulay
There are a number of scriptures. For example, the prophet Micah in chapter six verse eight says, what does the Lord require of you but to do justice to, to know, to love mercy, or to work in humility with your God, and to go on as if anything at all? Christians need to be doing the work of justice, not injustices.
::Jide Macaulay
And also the Bible tells us in Romans it says, those who are not love I will call, will love. You know, and I think that for many people that might feel marginalised or also sighs. There is a lot of hope and joy that we can find in scriptures.
::Jide Macaulay
One of my favourite one is Psalm 139, verse 14 that says the for we are fearfully and wonderfully made. And I think the reality, you know, for me, as a as a Christian theology, as a queer theologian, he's done the scriptures, actually gives us more joy, you know, than the, sad interpretation that we see. But from the religious violence that we see, focus on the inclusive and affirming spaces and ministry.
::Jide Macaulay
The other side, the avoid the damage has been done by conservative religion. And unfortunately, that actually starts in my own home as well, because my dad is very conservative. You know, even as we speak today, he does not accept, you know, that gay people can be children of God. He he actually, you know, supported the Nigerian government in proposing, a bill that became law, you know, that can put me in jail for 14 years just for being, a gay man.
::Dan Hall
And how did that make you feel outside of religion, outside of religious text? Purely as a son. How did that make you feel?
::Jide Macaulay
He missed an opportunity to, address a gap in his own knowledge around human sexuality. And I wish that my dad, you know, will be able to connect with that joy. Because I was never an abomination. You know, he called me a disgrace. You know, he was more interested in his own reputation, in Nigeria as opposed to, a beautiful relationship, which is gay, son.
::Jide Macaulay
is a ministry that started in: ::Jide Macaulay
But one of the things that we do groundbreaking is Hustle Rainbow. It is also responding, with support for people seeking asylum for people living with HIV. For those who are, survivors of human trafficking or indie label or sexual exploitation. So imagine, a Christian ministry that is standing for all of these. That is a work of justice.
::Jide Macaulay
That is what I believe now God is asking us to do. That is what I believe that Jesus will stand for, not the persistent and continuous hatred and vilification and discrimination of minority people.
::Dan Hall
dren? Can you take us back to: ::Jide Macaulay
future. But let's go back to: ::Jide Macaulay
t's say probably around about: ::Jide Macaulay
And of course, after that period of fasting, you know, I, you know, pleaded to God that I don't want to be gay, take away the ceiling for me. And of course, when I met the woman, who became my wife, you know, I was my girlfriend when she said yes to a relationship with me, I automatically and I naively believed that God had killed me.
::Jide Macaulay
And I'm no longer gay. But the reality is, are the feelings. My Simpson's feelings never disappeared because I had a girlfriend. We we maintained and manage our relationship for about four years. Before we started to gather pressure, from the church members, from the church leaders, from her family, that we should get married, that we can't just be in a relationship without, you know, being married.
::Jide Macaulay
And of course, we decided to get married.
::Jide Macaulay
Three years into our marriage. I think, I was suffering with my anxieties and mental health and and around my sexuality. And I remember sitting with my ex-wife, you know, to have this conversation with her, about my sexuality. And, of course, it turned out the, you know, she was upset about it. And our relationship became acrimonious.
::Dan Hall
And so, Jide, at what point did you leave Nigeria and come to the UK?
::Jide Macaulay
I left Nigeria in the mid: ::Jide Macaulay
Well, to be honest, I mean, I stayed, you know, focus on, you know, the the the MCC church was very receptive. You know, I took the opportunity to continue my theological education and training with this denomination. And this is where I was able to explore that journey of reconciling my faith and my sexuality.
::Dan Hall
Why do you think that your sexuality didn't put you off religion and didn't turn you away from it? Because certainly many of the guests that I've had on it before, they felt that they could not square that circle.
::Jide Macaulay
I think the reality for me is I love the Lord too much to even let my sexuality get in the way. Do you understand me? I'm not saying that my my, position is, I focus my energy more on the. My relationship with God has opposed my relationship with denomination or even with the Christian community.
::Dan Hall
But people listening to this, some of them might say, how on earth can there be this love? When the religious texts tell us that being gay is wrong and that actually, how dare you be, religious leader? How dare you front the, the Word of God, when in fact your God is angry with you and wishes ill of you because you have ignored the rules and you are not, married, am with a woman.
::Jide Macaulay
I think, you know, to be quite honest, I mean, that those statements will be coming from people that are highly hypocritical. You know, there's a good story in the Bible, Matthew 22, about the woman who married seven Brothers High.
::Dan Hall
And how she married all.
::Jide Macaulay
Of them. She married all the seven brothers. One.
::Dan Hall
And she's a busy lady.
::Jide Macaulay
She doesn't need a visa lady.
::Dan Hall
And she must have been tired as well. I hope she got a good night's sleep about.
::Jide Macaulay
Honest. Maybe when she gets it, when she just needs a break.
::Jide Macaulay
The reality with this text is. Seriously, that is, according to the law of Moses, you know, which is a biblical law. A woman is a property of her father first and then her husband. Then, according to the law of Moses, she will marry the first brother. And of course, in this scenario that was given to Jesus, you know, she married the first brother.
::Jide Macaulay
He died. She had the rights to marry the second brother. And all of them died one at a time, including the last one, which is the seven brother. And of course, she was childless. But then the question is about resurrection. Whose husband? Which of the seven brothers will be her husband in heaven? And Jesus said that we will need a giving in marriage.
::Jide Macaulay
No, that is marriage in heaven. So when you talk about gay and lesbian people, you know, hetero sexuality or heterosexual marriage is not a criteria for heaven. And that's is why, you know, we need to put all those rules aside and focus on what is required for heaven, as in, what is required for heaven is to love the Lord your God with all your heart.
::Jide Macaulay
I love your neighbour as yourself.
::Dan Hall
And you said earlier about how we are fearfully and wonderfully made. How did this come together? How did your brain weave together all of these elements? When you found out that you were HIV positive?
::Jide Macaulay
Of course, you know, eight years after I came out as gay, you know, trying to navigate my life, you know, I was infected with HIV. And before anyone asked, yes, I got HIV through sexual relations. So and that's one of the ways that HIV Aids is passed on. I turn to God in my prayers, I lamented, I wept, you know that I've got the virus.
::Jide Macaulay
But the one thing I know is, this virus would not kill me, is not killing me. In fact, I overcame the virus because I was also begin to find and find people that can support me on my journey. People may claim that HIV is a punishment for my homosexuality, but I stand on the fact that, you know, Scripture tells me that God knew me before I was formed in the in my mother's womb, and that I am fearfully and wonderfully made.
::Jide Macaulay
So my journey is already ordained by God, even before my parents even conceived me.
::Dan Hall
But it must have been very difficult for you because again, coming back to this point where you speak with absolute confidence in a position where we are now, but even before you tested HIV positive as a black gay man with faith that that Venn diagram is must have left you with not many people around you, not many peers that you could completely identify with.
::Dan Hall
And then you add into that that you are living with HIV. It must have been a very lonely place to be.
::Jide Macaulay
I think you're very right down because, I have been living with HIV now 23 years, as of January of this year. And the first six years was was I was on the long journey. It was just myself on my medical team and probably one other kind of person that I shared my diagnosis with at the time.
::Jide Macaulay
you know, I was diagnosed in: ::Jide Macaulay
So it took me six years to get to a workshop for those newly diagnosed. And I think the reality is there were not many spaces like that. But then, of course, it took me 15 years from my diagnosis before I was able to speak publicly about living with HIV. So no one should be in a rush.
::Dan Hall
And even I think language is changing because I did an episode of this podcast in season two where one of my guests said that they wanted us to change the language and no longer talk about disclosure because there was an element of revelation, about disclosure, a revelation about something that is bad. One discloses a secret and instead to use language like sharing a status.
::Jide Macaulay
Absolutely true. I think if we choose to share fluid enough. But I think that the other thing again is, you know, when it comes to sexual health, every adult that is sexually active have their own personal responsibility. So do not expect someone who is living well with HIV to share the sense of with you when you got nothing to share with them.
::Dan Hall
I so agree with you on that. I am responsible for my body. I totally agree with you. You know, I went on and on about this with the episode I did with Alexander Chivas, which is to season two. Like it's so much my bugbear.
::Jide Macaulay
I remember the time, you know, live with HIV. When, you know, navigating new relationships can be very difficult. You know, I'm thinking, when do I tell them that I'm HIV positive? Shall I tell them before the first date? Shall I tell them before we have a first sexual contact? When do I tell them? When do I share this with them?
::Jide Macaulay
And it is actually quite nerve wracking. It puts a it puts a I personally put me off you know, having a relationship.
::Jide Macaulay
::Dan Hall
So then, Reverend Jide, you spoke about your own journey with coming to terms with living with HIV, how it took you six years to get to that point. Where do you go to Positively based? Were you getting mixed reactions from people when you did share your status with them?
::Jide Macaulay
In the early: ::Jide Macaulay
You know, they called me abusive names, and and there's, like, they call me a slut. And that I was deserving of the of of the of the virus. And that hurt so badly.
::Dan Hall
And I'm guessing they meant slut as a term of insult rather than. It's a term of empowerment.
::Jide Macaulay
No, you know, not known in terms of empowerment. It was more of an insult. You know, you know, you know, my body, has been exposed.
::Jide Macaulay
Before sunset that same day, I, I called another friend of mine because I really, really needed to talk to somebody. But but before I called this particular person, I had to think about what their responses would be, and I was on the phone to them less than five minutes, and they said, put the phone down. And they drove over to my house.
::Jide Macaulay
Help me pack, you know, a small bag of my items. And they took me to their home. Now, the reality is that, you know, I was broken and I remember them running the bath, making sure that I had a nice hot bath, you know, and and looking after me, you know, making sure that I had a comfortable place to stay.
::Jide Macaulay
And also remember that through the night they left the door slightly open where I was sleeping, so that they can keep an eye on me or even check in on me when it's needed. Now, that is one of the most, a, you know, incredible encounter. And that first stage of my diagnosis.
::Jide Macaulay
But again, you know, it also reminds us about the gap, you know, in, in people's knowledge about HIV, people have always referred to people living with HIV, has disease or dirty, you know, or that it is it is your fault. HIV is a virus that enters the people's body, you know, through the bloodstream. And it could be through sex.
::Jide Macaulay
It could it could be through injecting, drugs, you know, sharing needles especially. It could be, from mother to baby essentially in common. It is not known.
::Dan Hall
But I'm not wrong, am I? In thinking that the Bible specifically commands us not to stigmatise people who are sick?
::Jide Macaulay
I think you're very right. I mean, obviously for anyone that is unwell, the Bible responds to them with compassion. You know, after what Jesus said, then, you know, people who are heavy laden should come to him, and then he will give them rest and he will give them peace of mind.
::Dan Hall
I remember vividly when Princess Diana went to visit either the Mildmay or to the London Landmark, and very much on camera, touch the hands of people living with HIV and helped to dispel that stigma. That was still very strong in the 80s. And it's only talking to you now that I realise what an incredible biblical image that was.
::Dan Hall
You know, how similar to the, you know, the leprosy parallel in the sense of of divine touch and touches acceptance.
::Jide Macaulay
Like, I think you're right, you know, I mean, I had to actually say at this point that I also have the great privilege to, walk, the Midway hospital, as a chaplain for three years.
::Dan Hall
Can I just step in and ask you to describe what the Mildmay is? Because a lot of our listeners, are abroad.
::Jide Macaulay
ok on the HIV, mission in the: ::Jide Macaulay
u said, you know, down in the: ::Jide Macaulay
And she helped to break the segment. And you're very right. You know, the biblical image is divine. You know, she was an amazing, person who actually helped to break stigma.
::Dan Hall
And of course, transport for London and recognition for the amazing work that the Mildmay did during the worst of the HIV Aids crisis, literally named one of the train lines after it.
::Jide Macaulay
Absolutely, absolutely. So and again, that is also part of an incredible legacy, you know, that London has inherited. And I think it's a good thing when to look at it. So anyone riding on that line should be in learning more about this sort of mobile hospital and the work that it did in the London, area. Yeah.
::Dan Hall
The House of rainbow has been a huge part of your life. Can you just tell us about it? Why was it set up and what is it doing?
::Jide Macaulay
rainbow started in Nigeria in: ::Jide Macaulay
We're also supporting survivors of human trafficking and also those that are exploited in labour or sexual exploitation as well. We provide services for people living with HIV like myself. There's actually black queer man. We want to continue to help people reconcile their faith and sexuality so that the HIV diagnosis does not, become, associate of pain to people.
::Dan Hall
How do you feel when you think that the House of rainbow is now in 22 countries? Like, what an amazing, stigmatising legacy that is of yours. That must make you feel amazing.
::Jide Macaulay
It makes me feel amazing. It also makes me very nervous about the work. Because it is, it's not always easy. The impact we have in 22 plus countries is really about working with, community based organisations on the ground. So the LGBT organisations are always, primarily, you know, protocols on primary contacts. You know, for example, in this photo, we work with a matrix association, in Botswana, we work with Leica, Bebo, and so on and so forth.
::Jide Macaulay
But I think that, you know, the reality is to take the message of the inclusiveness. I mean, our messages to the LGBT people that, you know, you know, you can be because you are, you know, you can be all of what God has called you to be. You can bring all of your gifts and all of your talents, all of your strengths to the community.
::Jide Macaulay
But I know that is not always easy, especially in places where we still see violence.
::Dan Hall
Gedi, do you think someone can call themselves Christian if they turn someone away because of their HIV status, or because of someone they love? Can that person hand on their heart, call themselves a Christian?
::Jide Macaulay
I think that will be questioned until, quite honest. We have seen, Christian nationalists within. We've seen Christians that are just so dumb, outright evil. You know, we've seen Christians that are racist. We're seeing Christians that are homophobic. Of course, they can call themselves Christians. But I think in the eyes of God, you know, God will be saying, I don't know you because the simple instruction is to love your neighbour as yourself.
::Jide Macaulay
You know, you didn't take care of the needy. So at the end of the day, I think that to call yourself a Christian, it's for you to do, you know, the work of of Jesus Christ, you know, be like Christ, you know, love like Christ, be compassionate like Christ.
::Dan Hall
I've just realised in our conversation that we're talking almost exclusively about teaching to a congregation. What do you think about having to teach sideways and upwards? Because there are other religious professionals who think very, very differently from you and may come at it not from the point of view of a congregation who have less knowledge than maybe you do.
::Dan Hall
But from their perspective, they have more and better knowledge than you.
::Jide Macaulay
I think for some time in my early days of my ministry, I spent a lot of time, you know, in conversation with people, not very homophobic, because when people, mostly Lutheran homophobia, they always come with a position they're not ready to shift. And I think that, you know, when you are learning the Bible or learning theology, you must be open minded.
::Jide Macaulay
You must be willing to unlearn, to relearn. You know, you must be willing to take on new information and process them adequately. It can be exhausting. And I think that what we do today, you know what what I do with also rainbows work is to, you know, educate LGBT people and our allies and parents and families, you know, about the love of God for the marginalised community.
::Dan Hall
So then today, one of my main ambitions with this podcast is to create a repository of stories online for people who might need it. I've heard too many stories before I started this podcast, and now I've done it. Of people receiving their diagnoses and being suicidal and feeling isolation to a level that consumes them. And I'm hoping that a resource of stories will help them feel less alone.
::Dan Hall
With your brilliant skills, as, as an orator and as a communicator, can I ask you to speak directly to somebody who might be listening to this episode? Got this really, really nice, emotional. Can you speak directly to somebody listening to this episode who is feeling like they're falling apart?
::Jide Macaulay
Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah. You know, the journey of the, the journey of humanity starts with us, to be quite honest. And I think that when you discover that you, gay, your African or even any other race, and if you've been brought up in a religious background, whether it's Christian, Muslim or any other religious beliefs, and then you struggle with your sexuality, you find out that you, you get to a point where you're coming out.
::Jide Macaulay
You know, what I say to them is that, you know, again, I'm going to use the words, not coming out about sharing. You know, we're sharing our queerness. We're sharing the sacredness of our queerness with the people that we encounter. There could be parents, siblings. And so we're sharing our queerness, our sacredness with them. Now, if, like you, if like me, you know, you know, the diagnosis of HIV, I want to remind you, I don't say to you the you're not being punished with HIV because you're queer or because you're gay.
::Jide Macaulay
It is not a punishment. It doesn't work like that. You know, what has happened is that your body has, you know, responded to an HIV virus. And of course, you can live a better life with good counselling. We could, support. And I want to say to you that there is a community of people living with HIV who are both black, who are gay, who are Christians within the House of rainbow community.
::Jide Macaulay
So you are not ignored. And of course, you know, diagnosis can happen in a very dark time, because I know that, you know, a lot of people that are diagnosed in Nigeria or somewhere in Africa, they often are tied to diagnosis with the fact that maybe they don't have a job or, you know, they don't have an education.
::Jide Macaulay
But that's not always the case. The case is that, you know, an HIV virus was present and it was passed on to you, but is never an idea to take away your humanity or to minimise the joy and gratefulness of who you are. And I'll say this to, to anyone that was listening, you know, funders, community that can help you find the friends that can support you.
::Jide Macaulay
I will, I'm grateful that I did. I'm grateful that I'm also that person that's creating the space for communities just to be themselves.
::Dan Hall
Now, then, Reverend, today we are coming to the final parts of this episode, and this is the portion where I like to take a pause of remembrance and ask you to share with us somebody whom you would like us to take some time out and remember with you.
::Jide Macaulay
d my life. And I look back to: ::Jide Macaulay
It was true. Ha! That I discovered the international network of religious leaders, literally HIV. There are other people that I came to know. For example, two of the co-founders, Reverend Gideon Via mugisha and Reverend JP Moore, get to eat. Who? Both of them, you know, become my mentors. But Reverend Appenzeller lived an incredible life.
::Jide Macaulay
You know, she challenged, you know, stigma. She challenged shame and stereotyping of, people with HIV. She's also an incredible ally to the LGBT community. And for me, I want to remember her for that, for the legacy and that she left behind.
::Dan Hall
So then if you could take a postcard back to that 27 year old version of yourself today, the one sitting in the pieces of a broken marriage, what wisdom would you write on that?
::Jide Macaulay
Well, goodness me, I you get this question for when I'm 16 years old. Book is 27 years old. I think the wisdom that I would share with my 27 year old is not to, respond to popular opinion around my sexuality. Just be all of who I, And I think that will have saved me, a seven year, you know, lie, as a heterosexual person.
::Jide Macaulay
Yeah. I think the wisdom is for me to be myself and, and be all of who God has created me to be. My wisdom is to be yourself, regardless of the, challenges, the pushback, you know, the homophobia. But I have to say to one, as a part of me saying it's not always easy because I'm sure, people will be listening, you know, who do not have the privilege that I have.
::Jide Macaulay
I say it's not easy to do. I know people that have had to go into, lavender marriage. I know people that have had to, you know, enter into forced marriages. I know people that are hard to, you know, lie their way into a relationship just to protect all of who they are. And that can be very difficult.
::Jide Macaulay
But I stay with my wisdom. My wisdom is to be yourself, regardless of the pressures, in the society and environment.
::Dan Hall
Reverend Jide McCauley, it has been fantastic having you as a guest here on HIV the morning after. Thank you so much for your time and your wisdom. We hugely appreciate it.
::Jide Macaulay
Thank you very much for.
::Dan Hall
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And remember, if you encounter HIV stigma and a bar, call it out. If you encounter it at work, call it out. If you encounter it online, call it out. Because if you don't, you're part of the problem.
The theme tune is by Paul Leonidou at Unstoppablemonsters.com, and many thanks to Moray Laing for his continued support. And thank you for listening. Join me next time for another important conversation on HIV the morning after I've been Dan Hall.
