Have you ever had a conversation where you felt truly heard, and others where you felt completely misunderstood?

In this Leadership Unscripted episode of Unleash Your Impact, Unlock Others, Rich and Dave unpack the four rules of Supercommunication based on Charles Duhigg’s bestselling book. You'll learn how to recognise and navigate different types of conversations, i.e. practical, emotional, and identity-based, and discover how leaders can avoid misfires and connect meaningfully.

From asking better questions to sharing your goals and understanding emotional triggers, this conversation taps into the importance of intentional leadership communication.

Whether you’re leading a team, engaging with a client, managing a stakeholder, or having a difficult chat at home, this episode will help you unlock the kind of conversations that make change happen.

💡 Key Talking Points

• The 3 types of conversations: Practical, Emotional, Identity
• Why miscommunication happens, and what to do about it
• How to be more transparent with your goals
• What emotional intelligence really sounds like in dialogue
• Identity cues: When someone’s deeper sense of self is in the room

Welcome to Unleash youh Impact, Unlock Others, a podcast about inspiring leadership. We hope to bring you grounded wisdom, stories from real leaders, and leave you feeling inspired. Let's dive in.

So welcome to Unleash youh Impact, Unlock Others. As usual, I'm here with Rich Horton. Hi, Rich.

Hi, Dave.

And today's episode is on the topic of communication. Now, in an age of social fragmentation, polarization, and digital overload, being a super communicator is a superpower.

Whether you're in leadership, whether in relationships in general or everyday life, mastering these skills can transform how we connect, collaborate, and lead.

And today's episode is based on insights from a book called Super Communicators by a guy called Charles Duhigg, who is an investigative reporter, went to Yale University and Harvard, and his books really are quite insightful. And I know, Rich, when you read this book, it had a bit of an impact on you.

Yeah, it's really good book.

Yeah. So we'll talk about some of the insights from the book in a sec. But I've got a question for you, Rich, first of all.

All right.

Okay. Yeah. So you coach people for a living, you facilitate leadership events for a living, you.

So on a scale of 1 to 10, where naught is, you're a pretty poor communicator, and 10 is you are that super duper communicator, how would you rate your own communication ability?

So given that this is a leadership unscripted episode. I didn't know Dave was asking me this. I would say on a good day, seven or eight. On a not so good day, maybe six.

That's a good point. We have good days and bad days, don't we? So we're not going to be at the same level all the time. Follow on.

Question is, it doesn't really matter where you put the score because that's your view of yourself. How do you know you're a good communicator? That's the point I was getting to.

With this, I think based around some of the feedback I'm given on how I communicate in workshops, how I communicate in coaching. You know, personal friends are giving me feedback on that sort of stuff. So that's very positive.

I guess the feedback we've had from these podcasts as well.

Yeah.

Would help me sort of frame an idea of what that looks like. And also thinking back to some of the.

The more challenging feedback I had, particularly early on in my career, where I tended to be a bit passive in meetings stuff. We've talked about that before on previous Podcasts.

So, you know, when not at my best, perhaps I'm not surfacing and talking out aloud or making explicit what's happening inside my head.

Yeah. So we've called this episode the Four Rules for Meaningful Insights from Super Communicators.

And in the book, Charles Duhigg talks about how we can have deeper, more meaningful conversations that foster trust, that foster engagement and actually psychological safety, which I know you've talked about quite a lot in recent podcasts.

Yeah, yeah.

So here's a framing question for everybody listening. Think of the last time that you felt truly heard. What made that conversation different? I don't know whether you could answer that question, Rich.

Yeah, I will answer that. The other question I would ask is think of the last time where you were frustrated that you weren't being heard.

Yeah.

And how did that feel? Because I can think of some conversations in my life where feeling completely frustrated that the person. It almost seems willful.

It felt willful, you know, like that they're not understanding me. And they were just, they were just. The conversation felt very one sided and it felt like they were just there to get their point of view across.

And one that actually people just stop for a moment and connect and are curious about where you're coming from and validate and honour where you're coming from. That's really powerful, I think, in my experience.

Well, let me read out this little passage from the book.

Okay.

See what you think of this. So in the book, Charles talks about conversation is the communal air that we breathe.

Okay.

And we have all sorts of conversations all day long. But not all conversations are equal. When a discussion is meaningful, it can feel wonderful if something important has been revealed.

And Oscar award apparently said, ultimately, the bond of all companionship, whether it's in marriage or friendship, is conversation. But meaningful conversations, when they don't go well, which is what you just been alluding to, can feel awful.

They're frustrating, they're disappointing. They are potentially a missed opportunity and we might walk away confused, upset or uncertain if anyone has understood a thing that we've said.

So I guess the question then which he poses in the book is what makes the difference? How do we have these meaningful, impactful conversations rather than one that you've just been talking about, which is.

It just frustrates the hell out of me. Another point he makes in the book, which we can pick up on. He said that actually studies make one truth clear.

Communicating with somebody effectively means we must connect with them.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

So how many conversations truly connect with the individual that you're talking to?

Not many, probably. I think it's also worth saying before we just dive into the detail of meaningful conversations.

I mean, there's nothing wrong with a bit of superficial conversation.

No.

You know, a bit of. Bit of healthy gossip and that sort of stuff.

Talking nonsense.

Yeah. Having a bit of a laugh together. But I think actually really understand what we mean by a meaningful conversation. When to use those.

I think it's going to supercharge your leadership.

Yeah. I think that quote about it being a superpower is right, actually.

How many times have you gone into a client and they've said the biggest problem I hear is communication? I mean, it happens all the time.

All the time.

Yeah. So we need leaders that can communicate highly effectively and I think if you have those skills, you will stand out. Yeah, absolutely.

No doubt about that. And you're right. Yeah. Not all conversations have to be meaningful. We have conversations that aren't meaningful.

Yeah, exactly.

And that's fine. But obviously this one today is. And a lot of the ones that we need to have in our leadership context are.

So I guess my first thing to ask you to reflect on Rich is why do meaningful conversations matter? Why do they matter?

I guess we live in a world now, particularly in the context post Covid.

People often are working in a hybrid context and those connections that naturally used to happen, you know, in the factory, in the office or whatever actually don't happen as often. It makes making deeper connections really challenging.

You know, having management one to one conversations in a hybrid context is sometimes really quite difficult to do. And you know, things like teams meetings can very easily and very quickly get transactional.

I think also, I mean, we're in a very challenging market at the moment, aren't we?

We are, yeah.

Highly challenging. I think organizations are highly stretched. Their budgets are compressed. People have less and less time.

Yeah.

And I think it's almost like that can result in relationships inside a team, in an organization just getting very transactional. So it's all about getting the job done.

It's, you know, we're so busy, busy, busy, busy, one meeting after the next that there's very little time for these deeper conversations.

And I think that that point you made about human disconnection, we're going to pick that up in our next podcast.

Yeah.

Because there's a number of different types of disconnection I think that are causing us problems here. But let's pick up on your point about. Yeah, actually there's a lot of things getting in the way of us having a meaningful Conversation.

Yeah.

Yeah. Now, whether that's structural, the way we set our business up isn't geared towards doing it.

Or is it a skills issue, we just don't have the skills to have those conversations. Or is it a bit of both? I suspect it's a bit of both, isn't it, really?

Yeah.

I think the key thing for me around this, and we'll come to this, when we talk about the four rules of being a super communicator, I think it's about intentionality.

So at root of all this, there is a mindset issue around actually engaging our curiosity and intentionally understanding what's happening right now in this relationship. What do I need to do to make that connection deeper than it is?

So, Rich, let's dive into the four rules for meaningful conversations. And rule one is pay attention to the type of conversation that you're having. Now, I said a little while ago, this is about connection.

It's about a degree of alignment with the person that you're trying to communicate with or persons.

Yeah.

And Charles makes the point in the book.

When we absorb when what someone is saying and they comprehend what we're saying, that's when connection and that sort of neural alignment where in your brain and my brain, we're not disconnected. That's where that happens. And that is the breeding ground for a great meaningful conversation.

So that means we have to understand what type of conversation we're having.

Yes.

Yeah. Yeah. So do you want to unpack that for me a little bit?

Yeah. Yeah.

I thought this was really interesting when I read it, because when I first read it, I thought, well, this is just stating the blind in the obvious. But as we said before, common sense isn't always common practice.

No.

And bringing intentionality to this and really paying attention to what's happening in this relationship is important. So the three core types of conversation that Charles Duhigg identifies.

Yeah.

That underpin, like a meaningful conversation.

Yeah.

So it's practical, emotional, and what he calls an identity conversation.

Okay.

Because if you think about typically, what a lot of leaders often do, somebody walks through their door or their metaphorical door with an issue or a challenge or something. And our instinctive reaction to somebody bringing an issue to us is try to solve the problem.

Yeah.

And actually it might be that actually they do need some practical help. So that's the first type of conversation to practical help to help them solve the problem.

But often, actually what they want is perhaps emotional support. You know, so they need the opportunity in the space to process feelings. Maybe they're Seeking empathy, maybe they're seeking connection.

And somebody diving in straight to trying to solve a problem when somebody just simply wants to be heard emotionally can feel quite frustrating. We'll talk a little bit about what we mean by an identity conversation a little bit later on.

But essentially what's happening here with an identity conversation is where somebody's sort of essence of a sense of self is being challenged, maybe by say by a change in an organization. So for example, somebody's role is being changed and their sense of identity is tightly aligned to their role.

That can challenge our sense of self identity.

So sometimes conversations can appear on the surface to be just a practical problem solving thing, but it can go really deep, it can be emotional, or it can go even deeper and be around self identity.

So actually being aware of the subtle cues, if you like, that's happening in the conversation, really actively listening, really connecting and asking really good questions to understand actually what's going on in this conversation.

Yeah, I mean, I think you make a brilliant point that actually as leaders we can often misfire if we jump straight to or default to. Let's just do the practical stuff.

There's a decision to be made, there's a problem to be solved, and we actually don't recognize or even focus on the fact that there is an emotional need that needs to be explored here.

Because actually you might not get to the problem solving point or the decision making point if you don't dive into that conversation about the emotional stuff, let alone the identity stuff might come. Now, you've talked in a previous podcast recently about the power of coaching.

Of course, the benefit of doing this well is you can coach people highly effectively if you understand what type of conversation they want.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. I think the other thing to say is, I mean, this, this is really applicable in a home situation as well, because typically.

Oh, absolutely.

If you think about two people in a relationship, you know, with husband and wife or partner or roommate or whatever that might be, often when you hear about frustrations in the domestic environment, it's where there's a mismatch of understanding about what the conversation's about, you know, so that one person gets frustrated. Don't try and solve my problems for me. I just want to just talk about this.

Yeah.

You know, they've had a bad day at work or whatever and they just want to process. They don't want the person to solve their problems for them.

No.

So that, I think what happens sometimes at home is a really good analogy for what often happens in the workplace.

Yeah. So I guess that what you've got to ask yourself if you're having a conversation is what does this person need from this conversation right now?

Do they need to fix some things? Do they need their feelings to be explored and understood? Or is it, as you said, is it about an issue, about they don't feel respected, seen value?

Yes, yes.

That's the more the identity type of it. And it could be more than one of those things. Of course, it could be all three of those things actually. But where do you start?

Yeah.

And I think the other thing just to bear in mind, we talked about this in the, I think in the coaching podcast is the presenting issue is often not the issue. You know, the presenting issue probably is the problem.

And that's why people immediately jump into the practical problem solving, fix it sort of mentality.

Yeah.

So the presenting issue often is not the problem. So asking the right questions, listening deeply to understand actually what's going on here and what is this conversation about is really important.

And before we go on to rule two, so what would be your tip to somebody to recognize what type of conversation they're in? How would you know or what would you do to make sure that you do recognise the type of conversation that you're about to have?

Yeah, it's about intentionality again and bringing self awareness to the conversation.

So in your head, stop yourself from problem solving and engage your listening ear, shut your mouth and maybe just ask the person actually what, you know, what do you need from me right now?

Yeah, I think that's a brilliant question. Yeah. Actually let's not assume anything.

Yeah, yeah.

As you park the assumption, get your curiosity out, dust it off, listen. I think that's really important.

Listen, really listen and ask really good questions. I mean, you know, simply just ask the question, what do you want from me?

Right, yeah. What is it that you want from me right now? What do you want from this conversation? Today is probably a good starting point.

Yeah.

That's rule one, let's pay attention to the type of conversation that we need or want to have.

Yeah.

Rule two is then share your goals and ask for theirs.

Yeah.

Okay. Because often if. And you talked about having some sort of transactional type of conversations.

If you have quite transactional surface level conversations. Often if you have surface level conversations, there's often mismatched agendas.

Yes.

Going on.

Yeah. Yeah. So I think what I want to talk about with this rule, to share your goals and ask for theirs.

Yeah.

When two people come together for a conversation, imagine there's two sets of needs. Okay. So I have a particular set of needs, a particular set of things, objectives I want to get out of this conversation.

So if you're a leader or a manager, you might be responsible for delivering some key outcomes on a particular project. That's your needs, that's your needs.

Or it might be that a decision has been made at board level that fundamentally changes the nature of the roles of the people in your team and you need to change the way your team is delivering, for example. So that's your needs. Okay.

Yeah.

On the other hand, the person you're having the conversation also has a set of needs.

Yes.

Okay. So they might not be responsible for the project or the change that you're, you know, that you've been, you've been given to do.

You know, they have a job to do, their job is aligned to their sense of identity, etc. Etc. So they have a different set of needs and drivers. And actually a really good, deep, meaningful conversation honours both those sets of needs.

Okay. So there's like a. It's what I call balanced honor, if you know what I mean.

Yeah.

It says honor and respect.

So in other words, as well as honouring your needs and their needs, I think is surfacing those and making those explicit so you know exactly what's happening in the conversation.

In my experience, I don't think this happens anywhere near enough. I really don't.

And I know when you and I go into not just coaching conversations, when we're coaching people on a one to one level, but even when we're doing group coaching or facilitating conversation, we will often ask people, okay, what do you want to get from, from this conversation or this workshop today? And that's a really important question because it sets up what you're talking about here, actually let people express what their goals are.

Now you might need to also say, well, let me share where I'm coming from. This is what I need from this. But actually, does that happen often enough?

No. No, indeed. And that's really important.

Often in conflict, when two people are in conflict, what's often happening is people are stuck in their positions. So in other words, that's the surf sort of level stuff. So in other words, the leader I was talking about just now that they have a change to enact.

Yeah.

You know, so that's if you like, that's their position, if you like.

And actually what we want to do is we want to get below the positions people are taking and to surface those needs so we have that deeper conversation. Yeah.

And I guess what you've got to do in terms of making that conversation go in the right direction. You don't want defensiveness.

No.

So this, the beauty of asking a question like that is it disarms people being defensive.

Yeah. Yeah.

But you also want to create a degree of clarity, don't you? And focus.

So it also creates, if you do that well, some clarity and focus in terms of what we're going to talk about in the time that we've got available, what the outcome of this is going to be. And it might be you need another conversation afterwards. That's fine. Again, I don't see that happening often enough.

No, that's right. That's right.

And often when there's a mismatch of understanding, it's because the two people don't understand the respective needs of each other, and those needs are not surfaced and they're not honored.

Yeah. And as you alluded to before, when this really matters is when you're in conflict or conflict is ruined.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

And if we did this more often, do you think we wouldn't have as much conflict?

I might nuance my response a little bit. So I think it's important to have conflict, but healthy conflict.

Yes. Okay.

So what I would say is actually have the conflict, but make sure you're having conflict about the actual issues, the deeper issues, as opposed to just throwing rocks at each other.

Yeah, it's got to be about the issue, not about the person.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Okay. So that's rule two. Make sure you share your goals and ask for theirs.

Yeah. So a top tip would be, you know, just. Just ask the question. Let me share where I'm coming from.

Yeah, share that and then ask them where they're coming from.

Yeah, I think that's a great way of starting a meeting like that. So rule three, ask about feelings and share your own.

Now, I know we've talked about emotional intelligence on this podcast before and how important it is in the modern world. I think it's the performance and enabler, to be fair.

I think, you know, the more emotional, intelligent you are, the better you'll probably perform, particularly as a leader, I think. So what's your feeling about emotions in the workplace? How often they get talked about?

How often they get squashed and pushed away and buried under the carpet?

Yeah, a lot. I think it's very interesting.

You might have been at this conference we were at years and years and years ago, actually, it was a coaching conference we were at, and I can't remember exactly what the topic was. But we're on tables. I was talking to various coaches.

There's one coach I was talking to, and one of the things he said was, I never go anywhere near the emotional stuff in coaching.

Oh, okay.

Wow. That's a. That's a statement and a half. And fundamentally, I didn't. I didn't agree with him, actually.

No.

Because I think too often leaders and managers, understandably, I guess, are frightened to go to the emotional level.

Why do you think they're frightened, Rich? Why are we frightened to go to the emotional?

Well, because it can feel uncomfortable for us and many people, you know, so when we're dealing with the emotions, that stirs stuff up. So it can feel uncomfortable. And that's. That's normal and natural, but that's why people often avoid it. They want to avoid the discomfort.

So I think in the context where, you know, there's a lot of burnout. I know people feeling overwhelmed at the moment.

Yeah.

And, you know, we're in a challenging environment.

Connecting with people at a deeper level is really important, you know, so if somebody is reacting strongly to a decision you've made or a bit of feedback or there's conflicts brewing and there's tension in the room, actually don't try and solve the problem for them. Try to go to the deeper level so they can feel heard, understood, and emotionally. Emotionally validated.

Well, and we know. And we've talked about this on more than one podcast in the past about mindset management.

And actually, we all observe the world, and we then interpret that and we have an emotional reaction to it, and we do that before we actually logically rationalize what's going on. So this thing about ignoring emotions, it's kind of a bit daft really, isn't it?

Because we all have emotional responses, and if we don't actually tap into what those emotional responses are, we're missing a trick, really, in terms of getting good performance, good outcomes, solving problems, etc, etc. Yeah, we have to go there.

Yes.

So it's not the soft and fluffy nonsense that people will have you believe.

No, no, no.

And I often get that phrase chucked at me. Yeah.

And the other thing I think I would. I would say to this is people have different boundaries for the degree to which they want to be vulnerable.

Yes, absolutely.

And I think it's really important to respect that.

So there are some people that might be listening, whereas it might be just naturally easier for them or they want to go and have the deeper emotional conversation.

And for some people, making themselves vulnerable and exposing some of this can feel like they're a bit unsafe, you know, So I think it's really important to be really self aware and sensitive and to be really wise in terms of understanding, you know, what questions to ask so people can feel safe to explore the emotional aspects of the issue that you're talking about.

But also, and we've done this on the podcast, and I know we do this when we facilitate events for leaders, is that as leaders we need to model vulnerability.

So we've talked on this podcast, I know we have, about stuff that we've got wrong, stuff where we found it challenging, emotionally difficult, and why wouldn't we talk about that? Because we're no different to any other human being. You know, that everybody has these challenges. Why do we hide it?

So I think modeling that vulnerability creates the environment where other people then might be more inclined to speak up.

Yes. Yeah, it's really important to acknowledge that everybody has different boundaries around.

So have you got any tips for leaders in terms of doing this? Well, yeah, tapping into the emotional conversation. What are your sort of tips for leaders, Rich?

So, I mean, a couple of things I would say, so particularly when your antennae start to go and you start to say, oh, actually maybe there's something deeper going on here. I think signal safety early is important. So ask the question or make a statement like, I'm not here to fix this.

I just want to understand where you're at. Just ask very simple questions like that. Just to give them the opportunity, if they want to, to share some of the deeper stuff.

I think it's really important to acknowledge before you analyze, particularly if you are a natural sort of left br Reigned type person where you like the numbers and you're quite transactional and you're sort of very driven. I think, you know, acknowledge before you analyze so you can say things like, you know, that sounds like you've had a really tough week.

Yeah.

And I can hear it's taken a toll. Do you want to just. Did you want the opportunity just to talk that through? Yeah, I think use reflective listening.

What I mean by that is, you know, just simply mirror back what you've heard.

Yeah.

So, you know, so people can feel actually if you're using the language they've used, it demonstrates that you've listened and that can feel emotionally validating for them. So use reflective listening. We said this right at the beginning of the podcast. Don't rush to solution mode.

Yeah.

Okay. So shut your mouth and open your ears. It's my top tip.

And I think, you know, when you close the conversation, you know, close the conversation with connection.

So if people have shared and shared deeply, you know, thank them for doing that and give them the opportunity to come back and to talk about that again if they need to.

Yeah, And I think you make some really, really good points there and some really good tips. Because when we recognize that we are in one of these emotional conversations, they don't require an action plan initially.

Not necessarily initially.

They require some really good listening and some exploration and you've polished off that curiosity. This is the time to use it.

Yeah.

And I think it's really important as leaders and managers is if you feel uncomfortable during these more, these deeper, more emot conversations, that's quite normal and natural. And the more you do it, the more, if you like, comfortable you'll become with discomfort.

Yeah. And you must have quite a lot of these conversations because you know, one of your areas of expertise is confidence and self esteem.

So I know you coach lots of leaders around that topic.

Yes, yeah, yeah.

And surely with that topic you're going to touch on some very emotional stuff.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah. So if people are trusting you with their inner thoughts, we need to respect that.

Yeah, we need to.

Yeah, absolutely. Okay. So that's rule three, ask about feelings and share your own. Yeah. Rule four, consider if identity might be at stake.

So basically the point we're making here is sometimes conversations derail because they unconsciously threaten someone's sense of identity.

Yeah, yeah.

So can you unpack that a little bit more for me?

Yeah, I mean, go back to the example I gave earlier. You know, you've been tasked with changing the nature of what your team does, which means you've got to communicate that.

And people's roles and ways of working are going to change.

Yep.

If somebody's sense of identity is tied up in their role, that can be quite a challenging thing for them to take on, you know, so you as a manager might say, well, we're just, we're just changing your job. You know, this is just, you see it as just a transactional, very sort of simplistic thing. But actually the change goes, goes much deeper.

So surfacing those issues and allowing people to talk that through and recognize when there's resistance to change, it usually signals that something, that something much deeper is going on. So I think it's really important to notice when is somebody resisting change?

Are people being maybe defensive about some feedback that they're getting? Are they reacting emotionally to something that you think, well, why are they reacting emotion to that?

Maybe they've written a report that they spent hours and hours and hours or even days and weeks and weeks on. They see it being, you know, challenged and, and then you get a very emotional response to that.

Their sense of identity might be tied up in the work that they've done.

You know, when things like values and beliefs are at play in the context of a team, when, when things are done that runs counter to what somebody holds dear and what they believe to be true and important, that can be really challenging.

I think your example about change is a really good one because I think that's one of the hardest things to manage in leaders.

So if you think about, if someone has said to you, right, you need to go back to your team, this is the change we're going to enact, decision been made, there's no argument we're going to do this, or here's some data and facts to back up why we're doing the changes. It's obvious we got to do it.

Those two things could quite easily happen if you go back and tell the team the decision's already been made and here's the facts to back it up. That does not mean that these identity issues won't surface in actual fact. You need to pay more attention to them here because.

Because those facts and the data and what have you are not going to cut the mustard.

No, no, that's not.

Because that change is still going to impact, as you said, someone's sense of self.

Yes. Yeah.

And if you don't therefore understand well, what might they be perceiving they're going to lose with this change which is affecting their sense of self.

Yeah, yeah.

You're going to make a rod for your own back, aren't you?

Yeah, yeah.

I think the other thing just to say here, you might introduce a change that's going to challenge people's sense of identity, but the change needs to happen.

Oh yeah, absolutely.

So it might be non negotiable. So I think it's important that when these sorts of things start to happen is you have a conversation where they can talk about that stuff.

Their position can be validated if you like, but it still might come to a point actually where you can get alignment because actually you need to make this change and it's affecting their job. But what you can do is if people feel deeply listened to, they're more likely in time to come through the change and then accept and adapt to it.

Doesn't always happen.

But actually what you're doing is it's essentially you're giving Them dignity to talk through the stuff that really matter to them, that's deeply important to them.

Yeah. And this is about knowing your team, isn't it?

Because if you were in my team, and I think actually this change that I've now got to go and tell Rich that we're going to have to make.

Yes. Yeah.

But I also understand that that is going to impact your sense of self. I need to sit you down.

Yes.

And have a conversation with you about it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I. And the better I know you, the more I'm going to recognize that's what I need to do.

Yeah. So I think in these situations, it's really important to stay curious. Yeah, it's that word again. Curious, but not corrective.

Yeah.

So in other words, go deep and watch for what I call dignity triggers. So, for example, is what you're trying to do a decision you're trying to make, the. The issue that's happened, is it challenging somebody's status?

Right. Okay.

Okay. Is it challenging their perceived sense of competence?

Yeah.

Okay. So.

Yeah.

Is it challenging their sense of belonging?

Yeah.

Or is it challenging their sense of autonomy?

Okay. Interesting. Yeah.

So, you know, if you're.

If you're challenging somebody's perceived status inside the team, you know, you're removing something for them that perhaps in a particular field or area undermines their influence or status.

Yeah.

You know, that, that, that can be challenging.

If you're asking to do something that, if you like, undermines their sense of ability to do something, that's the competence thing we're talking about that. That can deeply impact confidence.

Yeah.

If you're asking somebody to move from one team to another and they've been on that team for years and years, their sense of identity would be tied up in sense of belonging to that team.

Absolutely.

If people had autonomy for doing a certain thing in a certain way, and then the needs of the business shift and then you reduce that autonomy or change fundamentally what's happening, that's going to be really challenging. So I'll go back to my point again. You can't always get alignment on these things.

No.

It's about validating their position. Even when you don't agree.

Yes, absolutely. At this point, this is not about agreeing.

No.

It's about understanding.

Yes. Yes, about understanding. Absolutely.

And if people feel listened to, they might not be happy, but they might, in the end come through a change with a sense of their dignity attached, even if they don't agree with what's happened.

Well, I guess you'd also come through that change faster because you'll take them on the ride with you rather than leave them behind. Yeah. So let's just recap these four rules for meaningful conversations.

So rule one, we talked about, pay attention to the type of conversation that you're having. Is it one that requires a practical focus, an emotional focus, or are some of these identity issues that you've just been talking about at play?

Number two, share your goals and ask for theirs. It's really important that you surface the purpose for that conversation. Rule three, ask about feelings and share your own.

This gets to the heart of where most issues need to be solved. And rule four, consider if identity might be at stake. And I like those four framing triggers. Is it about status, competence, belonging, or autonomy?

Because all four of those things will trigger people. Yeah, absolutely. No doubt about that. So let's talk about applying these rules in sort of real leadership. Rich. Yeah.

What do you think practically a leader can do to embed these principles?

Yeah.

So you know when you're coaching somebody, when you're having a feedback conversation, you know, when you're having your regular sort of catch ups, I think practice intentionally trying out just one of these rules.

Yeah.

Each week.

So over time you, you gradually deepen your conversations, you know, so over the next week or so, maybe just take rule one and just pay attention to actually what's happening in this conversation. Is it practical, is it emotional, or is it about identity? Okay, so just focus on that.

Just take small steps and then take each of those, the practical, the emotional and the identity conversations. Take those one at a time and just practice going deeper in some of the conversations.

Okay, great. Now I think that's really good tips. Yeah.

And as you said, there's gonna be lots and lots of different types of communication where we can practice this stuff.

Yes. Yeah.

So that's it for today, Richard. I think that's a good summary of what being a super communicator is all about.

I would recommend that people go and read the book if they like reading books. Yes.

Yeah.

Super Communicators is a really, really good book to read.

I think there's some really good videos on his, on Charles Duhigg's website as well. So that's.

Yes, I believe there are so sort of final reflections why communication is more than a transactional thing. I think that's when you said that that for me really resonates. Communication, if it's done well, is about connection.

Yeah, it's about connection.

For me, it's all about connection.

Yeah.

Top tips if there's one thing you'd say, call to action.

I'd just go back to what I said just now. Just for the next week. Just take time at the beginning of each conversation to say what's happening right now, what type of conversation this is.

So anybody who would like to explore this more, please read the book. Please get in touch. We do a lot of work around helping people communicate more effectively as leaders.

If confidence and self esteem are an issue for you, I know, Rich, you're running a masterclass at the beginning of June at Stanbrook Abbey on this topic. So anybody who's in the Worcestershire, Warwickshire, Gloucestershire area, or if they want to come from further afield.

Monday 9 June, Rich is running a masterclass on how to deal with confidence and self esteem issues. But failing that, please give us feedback. What are your communication issues? What do you struggle with, what have you tried and what has worked?

And do you feel that actually you are not 7 out of 10? I'm actually now becoming an 8 out of 10. Now you started this conversation off saying, yeah, sometimes I'm a 7 out of 10.

What would make you an 8 or 9 out of 10? As a super communicator, what could you do better?

Just paying attention to the type of conversation that's happening and not allowing my emotional passivity, I suppose sometimes to get in the way of me going deeper.

I think mine is just. And I've got much better at it over the years. But just listen lots, lots and lots. So Rich, thank you for that.

Thank you.

And we'll see you again next time when we'll talk about the five key disconnections that are impacting leadership in this modern crazy mad world that we live in.

Yeah, okay, thank you.