In this week Cruise Convos SPECIAL, Claudine is joined by Rafat Ali, Founder & CEO of Skift, a company providing news & insights into the travel & tourism industry, named one of the most influential people in tourism worldwide!

Rafat offers some outside perspective on the cruise industry trends & traveler behaviour.

Plus, Claudine quizzes Rafat on how technological innovations will likely change travel marketing, tourism operations & traveler expectations into the future - from FinTech to generative AI!

What is currently happening in our cruise industry today? Join me for Cruise Convos as we discover and learn from cruise industry leaders across the globe all within 28 minutes! I'm

Claudine Pohl and I'm the host of Cruise Convos. Today we have Rafat Ali! Rafat, Welcome to Cruise Convos.

Hey Claudine. How are you? Thank you for having me.

Thank you for being here. Rafat Ali. We're gonna start off with some quickfire questions. And then we're gonna jump into some more fun things. What an honor to have you. You're

definitely one of the people in our tourism world that I completely look up to Rafat quickfire questions. Ready?

Ready.

All right. Number one, what is your favorite cereal?

muesli? I just I love just putting it overnight into the fridge and and just get done with in the morning.

That's awesome. Number two, what is your favorite season of the year?

I would say summer I liked the heat. I'll take the heat. I go to India with family in summer. And it's very hot, but the kids love it. And that's what it is.

Epic. And last question one of your favorite vacation spots.

Faroe Islands. We were there in a few years ago with our now older son, I have a younger son since and would love to go back with them again.

Awesome. Thank you so much. Now let's jump into some questions. Tell everybody tell our cruise community about yourself and your epic company Skift.

So I started Skift. We started Skift 11 years ago. It's our 11th year. So it's a business media company focused on the business of travel news research conferences, marketing services for

the travel industry cutting across sectors. So people in the cruise community know us for our larger picture, big picture coverage about where the trends and travel are going where the future of

travel is happening. They probably attended our conferences, I've downloaded our reports, we have Skift research. On a day to day basis. We don't cover cruises on a day to day news basis. But we

certainly cover all their earnings of these public companies. We cover some of the new innovations that are happening on and off. And obviously a lot of our focus is on changing traveler behavior. So

that's very applicable to the cruise industry from that perspective of what digital booking habits or what are people asking for during their trips, post trips, etc. So a lot of our focus is on

changing consumer behavior and how that affects all of travel.

I love that you lead a team about 80 people you mentioned, right?

Yeah, 80 people now we were a physical company as in we had an office in New York office in small office in London, we had people in Singapore prior to the pandemic. And as happened with

the pandemic, we were about 60 people then. And much like every other part of the industry, including cruises was shut down during the whole COVID we had to cut back and we were down to about 40

people. And we started hiring again in 2021 and have hired 40 people since then, probably more because some people have left as well. And so now we're fully virtual company, we made a decision to give

up all of our offices. And I'm sitting in my house and Queens in New York, but I've been sitting for the last three years. And we run a global company now we have employees in all over us. A lot of

our folks moved out of New York to different parts of the of the country, some international as well, people in UK, India, or the parts of Europe, South Africa, etc. So we're Philippines. And so we're

now hiring in all different places.

That's wonderful. And you do still get your team together, I read that you're going away on a retreat and you have an awesome sponsor for that. Tell us just quickly. Where are you

taking your team? I think it's Iceland, right?

We're going to Iceland. So we started doing these retreats in 2014. We were going to attend people and went to Iceland there. So sort of a full circle moment are we survived COVID. We were

not doing very well. And as a company and Intrepid travel, which is the one of the largest adventure travel company is our sponsor. They're basically taking us there, but I'm really excited. I've been

to Iceland, I think seven times this is going to be my eighth time going.

Oh wow.

I was there a week after the famous volcanoes stopped. And that was my first time when I went and the famous volcano that I cannot pronounce. or So yeah, we we are we the big part of being

a remote company is not just be remote from each other but be able to meet multiple times a year. And so we do around our conferences. And then we do with our annual retreat and then different people

meet in different cities where they are!

absolutely amazing and I can tell, you know, you are such a great leader, and just how you bring your team together even though you're apart, you're still bringing them together. It's

just wonderful to see. Rafat, I read an article about Hurtigruten. Hurtigruten. I hope I said it correctly to all our listeners out there. And just tell us just a little bit about that.

You pronounce it better than I will. So I'm not going to let you pronounce it is that some of the criticism in general the cruise industry is just the environmental impact that these large

ships have had on destinations on the on the seas and the oceans that the cruise on, and Hurtigruten has, has put very strict limits on zero emission on using electric cruise ships, which I think will

be a huge game changer for the industry. And so I think the thing you saw was I praise them on LinkedIn, and the fact that they've committed to this. And I think that's my general senses technology,

in many ways will help mitigate the impact. This is true in the airline industry, obviously, they're very much focused on sustainable aviation fuel, and equivalent is coming to the cruise industry as

well. And then better planes more efficient planes lighter footprint on the environment. And so similar, I'm sure you cover in your daily worlds of the cruise world is and should come to the cruise

industry. I do believe that smaller ships is the feature of the of the industry, particularly as customers demand a sort of more intimate experience versus the mass experience. There's always going to

be mass, I think one of the things that none of us should turn up be snobs about is the mass tourism part. Because that has to happen for the industry to sustain itself, a base of mass tourism is

necessary can't just be a luxury travel in all parts of the industry. And people who are mass at some point could be part of the luxury world as well. So you have to sort of think about that. So I

think from that perspective, I'm excited about innovations like these that help move the cruise industry, and some of the criticism that is had forward.

You're right, we do see a lot of smaller lines coming into the market as well. We have a team and we're like talking, we're like, Oh, what's this cruise line? It's a small line that's

coming in lots of new luxury or niche lines starting up. So you're right.

And let me just say this final point. I do think that so for instance, if you ask majority, the people in our company, would you be open to cruises and most of them would be first time

cruisers, if they if they go. If you pitch to them, a mainstream mass ship, guaranteed, there's reason why they're dead, they haven't cruise before, they will not be open to that experience. But if

you pitch them river cruising, it's a different experience, which is a very more experiential, integrated with the environment, with the destinations and etc, where you're going. So I think

personally, like, again, I'm not a cruiser cruiser, per se. But I would love to go on the cruise on the Amazon and Peru or Brazil or in other countries, or Nile certainly or you know, any of these

places. I was in Senegal, and they have this incredible cruise that we didn't, we weren't able to go last year my wife and I went, I forget the exact river that you go down in Senegal. But I would

love to do that. So that's I think, where the younger experiential traveler would be a better pitch in general. So I feel like that's where industry should definitely focus beyond the massive Did you

already

I love it. Let's talk a little bit about technology. I see you always talking about technology, AI, there's lots of different things. Just share with our listeners, give us a little bit

of your knowledge.

Yeah, so it's a fascinating time, particularly after COVID where, as you know, as a lot of industry was closed. But the larger companies were focused on retooling a lot of their businesses,

particularly around tech, whether it's reservation systems or new customer service systems, because obviously customer service was a huge concern during COVID, early on in the COVID. And so a lot of

the companies have retooled and looked at new systems and tech and put investments in it. It was a time where they could do that when they didn't have the mass of tourists coming in. And so just in

the last few months AI as you know, everybody's talking about AI and Chad GBT and the tools that have come in. And there's just so much potential and this is some of the videos I've done on LinkedIn

as well as obviously Skiff covers that on a daily basis. And there's a lot of buzz about front end, AI as in chatbots and chat GPT type tools, and that's only one part of the AI world. What AI can

unleash on the operational part of Have cruises or hotels or airlines or airports etc. is we're still very early in this. And the technology around how AI understands complex data, complex language,

and makes meaning out of it is still we're still very early in it, even though the the technologies is is leapfrogging literally by the day. And so we're sitting here a few weeks into March. And the

company behind Chad GPT is company called Open AI launched their new version of this technology. And it's exponentially better than the one they launched three months ago, exponentially better on

understanding like, you could feed it an image, any image, like you can feed it up, you you open your fridge, take a photo of whatever's in your fridge, and say, Tell me what's in here. And what can I

make out of this for the next three days, it will not only understand the image on what it is, if it's milk, vegetables, whatever, here's what you can make from it. And here's, here's the recipe. And

this is just a small example. So we are in just an incredible time for tech. So imagine the potential it has for surely, travel marketing in general, yes, you can generate a lot of content a lot more

faster. But also, so make the work of your team a lot more efficient, but also operationally, whether there's hotel back of the house or crews back of the house, where the work of and as you know,

labor shortage has been a perennial issue, particularly over the last few years for our industry. So you'll see a lot of this stuff coming in. So a lot of our coverage is focused on the tech side,

there's so much action on that side. And then the other part that I think we've been covering quite a bit on the tech side is payments. And sort of a broader topic of FinTech in travel, and how

payments, which have always been a friction, particularly internationally as your travel is becoming a lot more seamless, whether it's mobile wallets that have come in travel and you know, even things

that are mainstream now, like Apple Pay have made our life so much easier. And then FinTech has come in into how we book and pay for travel. For instance, let's take an example of your industry

cruise, you want to book something online, but you you're not sure. So you want to hold this price for 24 hours or a week, for instance. So you pay $10 Extra, and you can hold this price for a week.

So those types of innovations in booking where you are able to sort of break down a bunch of things in the booking process and pay for these conveniences is now coming into the booking process quite a

bit, or price guarantee, in case you pay me $25 more and I'll give you this lowest price. If you do get the lowest price later, I will rebook you at the lower price and refund you the difference. Oh,

so. So that type of innovation on Fintech is it has come into travel is there already? And I don't know if it's come to cruises yet, but it certainly will if it hasn't already.

So interesting. We think about I'm going to jump over to tours, tours or when you know cruise ship lands or goes not lands. But when it arrives at a destination. You mentioned about

working and how there's a demand. We're experiencing this with tour guides, language barriers, and I can see some of this technology really coming in play

100% I mean, the lifeblood as you very well know of the travel industry. This is the consumer part I'm talking about his itinerary, right? itinerary generation, this is true for cruises are

true for travel agents decision for tours, anything. And these AI tools make it so much easier to generate personalized itineraries. Whatever your criteria is, obviously people comes in all stripes

and shapes and everything else. And so it being able to generate custom itineraries. The language translation has also the trunk there is an incredible article in in the New Yorker earlier this year,

about the exponential leap in translation technology. What has made that possible, and it's probably the most fascinating tech article I've read all year so far, in terms of how quickly the LEAP has

happened. And for what reason I mean, it's too technical. It was very technical, but they made such that you could understand as you read it as a as a layperson. And so, the real time translation

Nirvana that you and I have sort of dreamed of as in to say, I'm talking to you, I don't know your language, but somehow it gets translated to me in real time. Whether through the phone on what most

likely to the phone right? Is there. And so it's just a matter of technology propagating to the masses at this point. So, language barriers 100% is the thing that technology can solve a lot of things.

It won't solve human understanding, but it will at least solve the issue of being able to understand each other's language. If not emotions!

Emotions! Emotions too do you think?

well, I mean, I say understand language, and then it's up to humans to do the emotion part of those part. Okay. Hopefully, that emotion part will continue to stay the domain.

Name. I love it. Okay, Rob, that it's honestly an honor having you again, just I just think the world of you. Now you are named one of the most influential people in tourism in the

entire world, like, wow,

and you're saying, What am I done to deserve this? Is that what you're asking me?

No, absolutely not. I follow you. I know, I know everything. I don't know. You're everywhere. You were just in the UN, you were like, You're everywhere you're around the world. You meet

a lot of influential people yourself. Tell me a story. Who have you met that has left you like, wow,

in our industry, I'll sort of stick to the travel industry. I think I've met Brian Chesky, the CEO of Airbnb, and he is probably the closest that comes to being a celebrity, in like the CEO

in travel industry level. Because unlike fashion, our industry doesn't have like celebrities, CEOs, right. But whenever he comes to speak, he and he speaks at conferences. And our main one that that

happens in September in New York is the skift Global Forum that many of your readers or listeners may know. And all the public company CEOs are there. And when he walks in one, the room is absolutely

overflowing. And then everybody just quiet. Because he's the as close to a rock stars income. But the thing that is incredible about somebody like him is people have controversial views. Like they

have all sorts of views along the spectrum about Airbnb as a company and its effect on the world. You can argue that 100% What you can't argue is the dedication that it took for somebody to really

take this thing out of their bedroom, which exactly is what it was, to this global iconic brand, that is a verb now required the intensity and focus of somebody like him, young guy, very young guy.

Yeah. And he's a he's an intense dude. And, you know, you talk to him, and you'll see the passion. They 1,000,000% believe in their own, whatever they're selling. And you have to 100% believe in the

mission in your world, which is, what he's done, and the focus of which he's done. And the design sensibility that is brought to a sector that could have been completely chaotic. Right, it's just

people's homes, right? Or, and so he's brought this design sensibility. That's his background, by the way, too. He and his two other co founders came from Design School, which is also very rare in the

tech world. They don't you typically have people from the tech world that come. And so they came from RISD, which is a famous, famous design school. So bringing that sensibility. So I've talked to him

many times. And I think he, he also has become a very good storyteller. And it's fascinating where I've interviewed enough CEOs or enough executives in this industry, where it's apparent when they

have learned how to storyteller because you many times you don't come out of the gate, knowing how to storyteller well, on stage, for instance, and he who I don't think naturally came to storytelling

has learned it so you can see when he turns his switch on. And so for me, that's as a media person. That's fascinating. So that's why I'm a big admirer not just to what he's built, but then how he

tells the story.

I love it. And guess what, so I am right now in Puerto Plata. I was here working with the port. And I'm actually in an Airbnb right now. My family came down. So we're in an Airbnb. So I

love Airbnb. And one more point I read an article because I get a lot of my news. My Travel news comes from from your channel.

Well, yes, yes, yes.

But I read that Airbnb is doing something interesting that they're starting to advertise within how what was it that they're starting? They're looking at...

they're looking at adding paid listings and paid listings. As you I'm sure you know, if you go to Google or you go to booking or Expedia or any other booking site, you will see a bunch of

paid links in addition to organic links as well. And they have for now kept their experience pure, warm and pure as in NO paid listings. But obviously it's a it's a large, multibillion dollar business

for these other companies. So they're, they're looking at it, but I'm very sure that he's going to, you know, if it's Chesky and this Airbnb, they will give a lot of thought to make sure that it

doesn't pollute the listings. And one of the one of the criticisms of paid listings is you can't tell whether this is a paid listing, or an organic listing and paid listings overwhelm the actual

results. So I'm sure they'll be very focused on trying to make sure that this is the right balance.

I love it. Rafat you have a lot going on it's gift. I know the big conference coming up in September, some of the ministers I work with love going to that conference. Tell me what else

what what should our listeners know, how can they, you know, make sure that they're not only, you know, being involved in everything that our cruise world has, which is epic, but what else can we

learn? Tell us a little bit.

Yeah, so we are very for so this year is just we have designated this year and turn the as the year of action. And it sounds so obvious, but because this is the first full year of normality

in the travel industry, because of obviously COVID, the last three years were somewhat uncertain. And so a lot of exciting things are happening in the travel industry, the economic downturn, yes, but

industry seems to be booming so far as you know, and continues to boom. So we are very focused on new regions. So like Middle East, and I know this for a fact for the cruise industry is emerging to be

a big area. So for us from a coverage perspective, it's big. We just launched daily India newsletter, India is emerging to be the India just crossed China as the most populous nation in the world.

Very fast growing middle class in there. So Indians will become the largest outbound tourism market, which obviously has direct implications in the cruise industry as well. So we're covering that. So

we're looking at launching a conference in Morocco as well. And so there's a lot that I'm excited about our conference Skift Global Forum, which happens in September, this year is 26th to 28. And all

the big CEOs are there. So if you want to get a good understanding of what's the best mix, or where the future of travel is going, and and hear from mix of big public company CEOs, but also the people

that are innovating on the edges. And what I what I guarantee the people it's the most is the best brain food you can have for the year. If you're in the travel industry.

I love it. Absolutely love what you mentioned as well about the Middle East. One of our team members is from India, and she's coming to seatrade cruise global for the very first time.

So she's got a long flight. Well, she'll be there and I'm sure she'll have a great experience. And you saw Saudi Saudi Arabia just purchased. They just purchased a cruise ship. So lots is happening.

Yeah, yeah. Now, last question. Are you ready for it?

I'm wondering what it will be. But yes!

So Rafat, if you could look back in your life, okay, if you could look back, and you can give yourself one piece of advice. What would you tell your younger self?

Wow, figure out how to keep your hair. I actually like being bald, to be honest, I don't have to worry, I save I save so much time not having to think about hair. Certainly not that. But I

think professionally, trust your instincts. In general. You know, from a business perspective, this is my second company and built and sold a previous company and had nothing to do with travel. But

that's what I've done. In general, I'm a big fan of action, action over intent, meaning at all times, make quick decisions and do things versus writing a business plan or like when people start

thinking about the business, etc. It's all the tools that that you need to launch your business, particularly if it's a digital, like an online digital type business are available for very low cost,

either free or almost low cost, media site creator whatever you want to do is available today. You want to launch e commerce site Shopify, so it's everything is available. And so nothing should stop

you. So I'm a big fan of trust your instinct and have a bias towards action. And also people talk about education education in which which university or you should go to and all this stuff. You know,

I did my undergrad in India, at a small university and went to Indiana. I did fine in life. So we shouldn't obsess on the younger self. The true thing I'll tell to my younger self and I tell it to my

my my kids are young but my other nephews and nieces. It doesn't really matter. Beyond a certain point where you do education what What you get out of it is what's important. But it doesn't matter if

it's an Ivy League or not. It's up to you on what to do while at school and what to do after. So don't obsess too much over your grades or the school that you go to etc.

I love it Rafat. I'm on board with that as well. Now, one last thing. If we offered you a cruise on a small ship, would you go?

Yes, yes. I already told you. I'm gonna go

You guys are listening!

It has to be a river cruise. I will do a River Cruise!

What about an expedition cruise?

expedition? I'll do two expeditions. I did one in Burma. Myanmar. 11 years ago river cruise. It wasn't like a cruise. It was just a ship, like a ferry ship. But it was an eight hour long.

So I guess that qualifies. But just just fascinating how you can? How can experience life on a boat?

Yes. What I love is just, you know, getting to a different destination and the culture and meeting the people. It's just amazing. Rafat, it has been an honor. I'm going to work on

getting you getting you on an expedition ship or getting you on something small. Okay, I'm gonna work on it.

Thank you. And thank you for having me.

It has been an honor. Thank you for being part of Cruise Convos.