750 layoffs a day. No, that's not a typo — and it's not slowing down.

Brett sits down with Steve Jaffe, marketing veteran and author of The Layoff Journey: From Dismissal to Discovery, to talk about what most career books completely skip: the emotional and psychological toll of losing a job — and why processing that first is the key to what comes next.

Steve was laid off four times over a 30-year career. His first layoff took him years to recover from. His last one in 2023? Water off a duck's back. The difference? He finally understood what he was actually experiencing: grief.

This one is for anyone who's been laid off, is worried about being laid off, or is watching colleagues get cut and wondering when it's their turn.

In this episode:

1. Why January 2026 had the highest single-month layoffs since 2009 — and why the job market isn't bouncing back
2. How layoffs became a business strategy instead of a last resort (and what that means for your career security)
3. The stages of grief that apply to job loss — and why skipping them is costing people months of their job search
4. Why the "myth of meritocracy" is one of the most dangerous things to believe in corporate
5. The identity crisis that hits when your job title is your identity — and how to separate the two
6. What Gen Z is getting right about corporate that older generations sacrificed
7. Steve's pivot from laid-off marketing exec to published author — without a Plan B in place first
8. Why having a side hustle isn't just a trend — it's now a survival strategy

About Steve Jaffe

Steve spent 30 years in marketing and advertising — from West Coast ad agencies to in-house brand roles, including work on the iconic What Happens in Vegas Stays in Vegas campaign. After being laid off four times, he channeled those 10,000 hours of experience into his book, The Layoff Journey: From Dismissal to Discovery — a practical, grief-informed guide to navigating job loss without losing yourself in the process.

Resources mentioned:

1. 📖 The Layoff Journey: From Dismissal to Discovery — available on Amazon and wherever books are sold
2. 🌐 Website & free chapter download: https://thestevejaffe.com/
3. 💼 Connect on LinkedIn: Steve Jaffe: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jaffesteve/

Connect with Brett & The Corporate Escapee:

1. 🌐 TheEscapeeCollective.com

If this episode resonated, share it with someone who's currently in the middle of a layoff — or someone who should probably start building their Plan B now.

Steve Jaffe, welcome to the Corporate Escape Bee Podcast. I'm glad to have you here.

Thanks Brett, it's really good to be here, I appreciate it.

Yeah, I'm excited to talk to you and probably could have used your book about six years ago, right? Because that was the last time I was laid off and I've been solo since then. And one of the reasons I wanted to have you on the podcast is with with the layoffs and everything going on. And I love the dual episodes because you are also a corporate escapees so we can we can dive into both so but maybe just to get us started share with the audience just a little bit about your your background what you're working on today and then I'm going to take you back in time a little bit.

Sounds great. So, gosh, let's see. marketing advertising background, about a 30 year career, started in ad agencies, on the West coast and, transferred that skillset into like in-house marketing. and over time did a lot in the tourism hospitality space, worked on the, famous ad campaign. What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas.

That's awesome by the way.

And yeah, thanks. Thanks. And then later in my career, pivoted into like SaaS product marketing stuff. And during that career arc was laid off four times. And there was a very big difference between my very first layoff and how I managed that experience and my last layoff, which was 2023.

And I wrote a book about my experience and the skillset that I learned and how I think folks could benefit from like my 10,000 hours of recovery from the effects of a layoff. So I'm out right now promoting that book, The Layoff Journey from Dismissal to Discovery. And

And concurrently, there's the fewest number of new job postings and hiring happens. So not only are people getting laid off in record numbers, but they're out of work for longer as well. So I'm, you know, it's a little bit bittersweet because there's an audience for my book.

Yeah.

people are finding it beneficial and helpful, so I'm happy about that. But I almost wish maybe that there weren't as many layoffs because that would mean people didn't have to deal with what is a really traumatic life experience.

Yeah, and definitely getting into that. just to that point, I did a post the other day that because I was looking to the media seems to be getting a little more quiet about the layoffs, right? It was in my feed all the time. And I'm like, Wow, are they slowing down? No, I actually looked and found a stat that last year, think, layoffs were like 550 per day. And 2026 through February, it's up to 750 layoffs per day. So the per person, that's just a staggering amount of people. And I think you're

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

other point is as well they're not hiring people back so back when I got laid off

No, there are some jobs. yeah. There's some jobs that yeah, they aren't coming back, whether it's, you know, new technology, competitive, advantage from, from some.

mergers, acquisitions, AI. Some industries are being decimated. And now for the very first time, government jobs are being eliminated. You know, with Doge, if you were a government worker, you were pretty much in short longevity. Now government workers aren't even protected.

Yeah.

Yeah, again, if you followed my TikTok channel, you know, I've been talking a lot about the, and I think it's the profits over, well, I know it's a profits over people playbook to the big corporate, but one of the things I've seen is the tenure of CEOs are getting shorter. So they're literally living quarter by quarter with those massive compensation plans. And I think what really tipped it was

As soon as layoffs became a business strategy, not a last ditch effort, you and I have been in corporate about the same amount of time back 20, even during the financial crisis. And in those times, if you laid somebody off, it was a big deal and it just ruined the image and that there was risk with that company. Now we had a record quarter, but next quarter doesn't look as good. Let's lay off some people to hit the bottom line. It's just, it's, and I got the haters out there will say, well, it's always been that one. Like, yes, but it's.

It's not the loyalty, the longevity, everything's there, which obviously you dug into.

Yeah, it has become way more common than it's ever been. Um, it used to be layoffs were kind of like the last ditch effort. Um, and now it's like the knee jerk reaction, you know, it's, it's become so much easier to cut head count and take that revenue, put it on the bottom line, then to increase sales and funnel the pipeline and the whole thing. Um, and it's really unfortunate. There's, um, you know, there used to be, um,

loyalty was a two-way street, you know, and it just doesn't seem like that's the case any longer.

Right.

No, I think that the barn door is open and corporates not looking back. So yeah, so let's let's kind of dig into that. But let's go back to your corporate career. Because like said, when I read your book, I had flashbacks, right? Because the first time I was laid off, it is super traumatic in the sense like, what did I do? How did I fail?

Yeah.

Yeah.

right? And then by the time the fourth one came, it's like, all right, this is a business. It doesn't make it any easier. And you're still mad, but it's, it's a different and, um, so let's go back into your journey. And again, cause I'm obviously that's where the, the idea for the book started to come, but, let's, let's go back to that inspiration when you decided to write the book.

Yeah, so, you know, I'd always wanted to write a book. It was in the back of my mind. I just didn't really have the subject matter that I thought I wanted to dedicate the time and the resources and that I thought would fill like a niche in the marketplace. meanwhile, I was experiencing these layoffs and each one kind of hit a little bit differently. And that one in 2023,

I found myself like experiencing it like water off a duck's back. And it really didn't affect me where the first layoff, it took me like a couple of years to process what I later associated as grief and the stages of grief, which is the premise of my book.

Yeah.

I had learned how to move through that and how to understand the layoff experience, not as like a personal declaration of me and my self-worth or my accomplishments, but rather a simple business decision that was made. you know, I was on the unfortunate receiving end, but I learned not to read so much into it and to take so much meaning from what was really a transactional

moment for the company. and you know, I also had learned over time then like to not buy into the myth of meritocracy. Cause that's one of the things that can really trip you up is you can feel like you're smart, you're productive, you have positive performance reviews. You, you know, I've seen employee of the year get laid off. you know, they'll announce a play of the year in January and that person will get laid off in June.

All right.

So, you know, I had learned those skills and, there was about 20 % of the company that was laid off along with me. And I found myself wanting to communicate to those coworkers who I become pretty close to like, listen, it's going to be okay. Here's how you navigate it. Here's how I went through it. Here's the skillset that I learned.

You know, let me take my 10,000 hours of processing this and my expertise and tell you kind of what to expect and how to navigate that. And it was then that this light bulb went off and I realized, you know, this would be the topic of the book because it could help that 20 % of the company I was laid off with along with so many others. So.

Once I had kind of put that together and I realized that there isn't any other book in the market right now that covers the layoff experience from a grief perspective, I saw an opening and I thought, well, I could really contribute something and help people.

You know, so many other books, just pick right up with, okay, you've been laid off. Here's how you do your resume. Here's how you do job interviews. Here's how you update your LinkedIn profile. It's real tactical, but it doesn't stop to pause and say, listen, this is a grieving moment and you need to process this grief before you jump back into the job hunt and you start going on job interviews. Cause, this is baggage that you can carry and it can hold you back.

Yeah.

So that's what I've been talking about. I've been talking about, you know, processing the grief of a layoff in a healthy way. So you move through it and you view the layoff experience not as a roadblock, but as a detour.

Yeah. And again, like I said, if we had your book a decade ago, it would have been helpful to process through it because I forget. when I talk to folks, I had been through it a number of times like you, but there's a lot of folks that haven't gone through this before, right? And may not have, right? They're maybe worried about sitting in their job. so what, again, without giving away the entire content of your book, you know, what are some suggestions you have for folks that are either just laid off or got caught up in the last six months? Cause I'm going to be honest,

I've heard from a number of people that are still looking for a job 12 months later and I'm not sure they've gone through the seven steps if you will to get through this process. So what's your recommendation to people? Let's talk to the folks that just got caught up in January.

Yeah, yeah. Take a minute, pause, give yourself the permission to feel these emotions. It's normal. know, people who experience a layoff experience trauma and grief not dissimilar to, you know, the death of a loved one, a divorce. Like the way that human beings process grief, whether it's...

You know, the death of a loved one or divorce or job loss is really the same. You, you, you, you move through grief in similar ways. It's how we process. Um, so give yourself the opportunity to just spend some time and the permission to feel those emotions without judgment. Um, and, and, and, you know, you certainly at some point will need to reenter the job market and do the job interviews and things, but.

Give yourself some time to take a pause and work through those emotions. You're going to be in denial. You're going to be angry. You're going to want to try and bargain with yourself. Like what could I have done differently? Right. You may feel depression, which is totally normal. Using the book as a roadmap.

The last three stages are kind of where you start to see the light at the end of the tunnel. Renewal, reconstruction, acceptance are really important stages. And that's where you can use the layoff as an opportunity to take a pause and do some self discovery and reflection and say, you know, is the career path that I'm on fulfilling? Is it meaningful? Does it bring me joy? Is it in alignment with my passions?

is my career path or my industry experiencing contraction? And if I stay in this trajectory, will I just experience another layoff? Do I need to make a pivot? Do I need to re-skill, up-skill, identify transferable skills? This is the time to do all of that so that you're really intentional and purposeful about where you take your career from here.

So that's the important work that can happen and should happen during this time. But the first step is to, you know, take a minute, take a deep breath and, you know, allow yourself the, the, the grace to feel the pain of the layoff because a layoff, there's a lot of stuff that's been taken from you. It's not just your paycheck. It's your community. It's, it's the friends that you, the relationships that you formed.

It's a sense of pride and joy in what you do. It's your routine. It probably is your health insurance. There's a lot tied up in the job. And for a lot of people, it's also an identity. It's how we define ourselves. And after a layoff you struggle with, well, who am I without this job? Once they take away that business card,

what's left, right? And that can also be a really difficult thing to come to terms with is, you know, what is my identity absent my job title in the company that I work for?

It's such a good point. And again, I've had six years of self reflection out of being able to go through it. And when I look back at the corporate career, I really did build my life around those corporate jobs, right? Regardless, if I got laid off, I was right back into it. And we do get to be known. I think we at least I'm talking for myself, label myself, I was this job, I was the director of your this or the VP of that and

Right? Life isn't really built that way, but we define it. And then when it's taken away, it's, it's hard, right? Because you're right. It's not just the job and the paycheck, which you get over, you need the money that that doesn't stop. But yeah, I think you're right. It's so much deeper the first few times because you never really thought and I find a lot of the folks escaping, whether they were laid off or not, have a hard time transitioning from

Mm-hmm.

this is what I do, this is who I am to know that's really not who you are. That's what you did for a job. And so just kind of curious as you went through this, obviously with yourself, but then deal and talking with a lot of folks now. Do you see this? mean, I think it's a challenge, but I'm curious to get your perspective. Okay.

Yeah. yeah. yeah. I mean, look, in our society, you meet somebody and where the first things they say to you is, what do do? Right. And that's like become this shorthand for how we define ourselves. And you'll give maybe a title and a company that you work for.

Yeah.

And people will then deduce like meaning and identity. You know, so if you say you're a doctor, if you say you're a lawyer, if you say you're in marketing, like there's all of these like socioeconomic cues that come from like what we do. And unfortunately it's very reductive and it certainly doesn't talk about the whole person of who you are.

in terms of like mind, body, spirit, what are my passions, what's important to me. Like, you know, it's difficult to go into all those things when you meet somebody casually. So we use this shorthand. And it's difficult, it's difficult, especially if, you know, that job becomes all encompassing, you know.

Right.

It's really difficult. People talk a lot about like the work-life balance. It's very elusive. It's difficult to find. You know, when you're working long, hard hours, you're pretty much, your job is what you do, right?

Yeah.

and you sacrifice all of those other aspects of who you are as a person because of that job. sometimes it's just so demanding. You don't have a choice. or you're really caught up in, you know, becoming successful and chasing that type of metric of success. So we sacrifice these other things in terms of who we are and being a really well-balanced person.

And those things are sacrificed. And that was, that was one of the things for me in my first layoff was I had everything wrapped up in that job. was, I was that, you know, director of marketing at that ad agency on that account. And when we lost that account and I lost that job, I lost everything. I had nothing to fall back on because I had nothing outside of work. what I learned by the layoff.

I had a very robust and healthy life outside of work so that when I lost the job, I lost that job, but I didn't lose everything. I still knew who I was, you know, and I had built a healthy coping, like a healthy lifestyle that allowed me to cope with the trauma of that loss and move through it in a very different way.

Right.

Yeah, it's so true. Again, you can just give me flashbacks as I go through this. Because you're right, the early ones, right, I was chasing that corporate and trying to climb that corporate ladder and the layoff derailed it, right? Because I've got a vision, I need to be at this level by this point and make this type of money. And it wasn't until that last layoff where same way, I'm still really unhappy. But I no longer have I wasn't chasing anything in corporate anymore. Now it was like, you know, the being why am I here? What am I doing? And really what I settled

Hehehehe

is what gives me more energy. Again, this is after the fact looking back after I was out. I was chasing what was giving me some people can call it fulfillment, call it whatever you want. It was just giving me more energy and I wish I would have had that same.

Okay.

thought process 20 years ago. Again, I'm not a big go back in time, but had I known then what I know now, I would have taken a different approach. And I'm kind of envious of folks that figure this out 10 years into their corporate career versus 30.

Yep. Yep.

And so let's maybe this is a plan and going into your escapee journey first, but this is, so I'm curious, how long have you been out of corporate and what was your plan with that layoff? Was your plan to go back into corporate and now you're doing just kind of take me through that last mindset.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that last layoff in 2023, I felt like, um, I was at a turning point. I was somewhere around 50 at the point. And I had known like with being in marketing 50 years old, um, you know, it was going to be tough to try and continue along that path.

I also understood that, you know, that industry and that field, it's one of many that tend to be more heavily impacted by layoffs. And I thought, man, just continuing to go around on this hamster wheel.

at some point you're going to just end up getting laid off again, much less knowing what the job hunt was going to look like at my age, you know, just the reality of the situation. I thought, you know, now is the time to pivot and,

writing the book, fulfilling that goal and that dream. So like I mentioned in the stages of grief, you have acceptance and renewal and rediscovery, reconstruction. In me understanding and doing the work of what brings me joy, what's my passion, how do I define success now?

It was really through like helping people and fulfilling what was kind of a lifelong dream. So the book became that and it became kind of like my pivot toward almost having my own like product that I'm selling the book, right? And some form of like, reoccurring revenue and building a new kind of base and all of this stuff. And what I found was

You know, wasn't walking away from marketing because marketing the book for the past year has probably is I'm doing more marketing than I've ever done, you know, across social media and content and blogs and podcasts and everything. so I'm still using all of those skills. Now I'm just using it for my own, like I mentioned the product, which is the book. So, I still will do marketing consulting, but you know, I'm able to do it on my own terms, which

which might be part-time, it might be freelance, it might be contract work. But at this point, I don't have plans to go back to being like a full-time salaried employee. I think for me that that boat has probably sailed and I'm happy with that and I'm good with that. I'm happy with like this new path that I'm on.

Yeah, I love that. mean, it's almost I wasn't in marketing, but go to market, but a lot of the same, right? I just nodding my head as you're talking about this, it completely makes sense. And it doesn't sound like before that layoff, you actually had a plan or you were working on a plan B, it's kind of you jumped into this thing once that layoff hit, right?

Yeah, it was a bit of a crossroads, know, like I said, know, turning 50, feeling like I was kind of at the end of I had, I had already had like,

almost three different careers in that 30 year arc. You know, like I spent 10 years in the ad agency business, 10 years doing travel, tourism, hospitality stuff, about 10 years in technology with some level of like sales thrown in there. So I had already made a few like minor pivots over the course of that career. And I just didn't see another pivot that made sense at that time.

Right.

Yeah.

And I knew like the trend of being out of work for 12 months. I knew that's what I was looking at. And I just thought, you know,

rather than being out of work for 12 months, trying to run around, send out a thousand resumes, I'd rather like forge my own path and create my own area of opportunity. And, you I knew I wasn't going to go out and start, you know, some.com or build a new app. And I thought, you know, a book is a good place for me to direct my resources and my energy and where I thought I could help people. for me,

As time went on, I realized like my definition of success was very different. So like early on, my definition of success was what's my job title? What's my paycheck look like? And, know, it's very one dimensional. And much later in my career, I realized what I would rather be doing and measuring my success by is how many people I can help. And that became a big underlying factor for the book is I thought, you know,

Yes.

At first I looked through it at a macro level of, I'm sorry, micro level of that 20 % of the people I was laid off with. And then I got the macro level view of that could help a lot of people just understanding and communicating what I've been through and how I think people can benefit from that experience.

Yeah, no, I, and again, that's the other thing it resonated because I was about 50 when it happened the last time and I didn't have a plan B, but it was kind of that the tipping point or the spark. like to tell people that they got me to start moving in that direction and go figure it out. Now I'm trying to warn people ahead of time, start thinking about what your plan B is, especially if you're unhappy, right? Start now while you still are getting a paycheck before you think about it or before.

it happens. so I'm kind of curious now with the book, is there a way and I didn't go deep into the thinking on this to take what you've written for folks that have been laid off and apply it before it happens, right? So if you can preemptively mind get your mind around the fact, I'm assuming that just curious your perspective on that. Is there a way to

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. For sure. think, you know, a healthy relationship with your employer in terms of, and I think what I see is like the generations younger than ours are already like creating much more distance and distinction and kind of work life balance.

Like they saw their parents get laid off after, and sometimes they saw their parents get laid off after the parent worked for the company for like 20, 30 years. And they realized, well, the loyalty that my parent may have shown that company was not reciprocal.

Yeah, yeah.

So they've kind of started already to insulate themselves and say, listen, I'll give you my time, you know, between the hours of let's say nine to five, but after five o'clock, my time is my time. And I see them have a lot more boundaries where we were like, you know, you want me to work till nine or 10 o'clock at night. Okay. You want me to work weekends? Okay. Like we didn't do any of that. So, you know, creating those boundaries and creating also.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

the side hustles that that same generation is doing now. I feel like they all kind of have these side hustles so that if something goes away, they have this other project or income that they can rely on.

that they may say, you know what, I'm just gonna double down and go pursue my side hustle as my full-time thing. We didn't have that either, I don't think. We poured everything we had into our jobs. you know, those are two really good things you can start doing is, you know, the side hustle is really important, having a different kind of balance and boundaries with the job, but also understanding

No.

the, that, that myth of meritocracy, that your, your performance, your loyalty, what you contribute, don't insulate you from a job. You could have a great performance review. You could be employee of the year and still get laid off. So, you know, don't, don't think that layoffs happen to like underperformers because they happen to everybody.

Yeah.

Now for sure and yeah, think you're right because I've been I've come around a long way in the last couple years thinking about like Gen Z I mean they do view I think what started that was that one Meme or video of the person that refused to come in for an eight o'clock meeting because they had that was their gym They weren't supposed to start till nine. I'm like, whoa, what you can't do that Then I started thinking what they may have this right they're viewing this as a transaction You're paying me to do this. This is what I'm doing They're not making it into their their being right or how they define

Great.

Yeah.

find themselves and I'm like man we really should take a step back and thought about it because you're right our whole career was oh you need me to work that's how I'm gonna get promoted I'm gonna have to put in the extra hours and you're right Gen Z said not happening to your point they've seen what happened to their parents and they just don't want any part of that so

Right.

Yeah, it makes sense. And I like the idea of the side hustle. didn't side hustle with there's no way, right? It's just, it wasn't even thought about that. But in hindsight, it makes perfect sense to do some things. So I don't know. I'm super curious to see where corporate's heading. I think it's with the AI race and the profitability ramping up on a quarterly basis.

Hahaha.

Yeah.

I like said, I live through the digital, you know, start to finish right up until, you know, the first the internet all the way to mobile than this. These big companies can't handle, they have no idea how to implement. So when we see these AI layoffs, they haven't gained any productivity. They have, they have not even come close to figuring that out. They're just taking the cost out and hoping they'll figure it out. So I, again, I'm tend to be more, less optimistic about the future of big corporate.

Okay.

Right.

getting out of their own way. do think small and mid-sized companies really have an advantage if they can leverage all of this and build it the right way. But yeah, which goes back to your book is going to be very well timed because I don't think it's slowing down. And by the way, I appreciate the fact that I probably should have held this at the beginning, that you wrote my favorite type of book. Like it's super actionable. You didn't give it to me in 600 pages.

Heheheheh.

And more people need to write books like this. Steve, and again, I don't even have to worry about layoffs, but I read it. So I appreciate that. And I do encourage folks, if you've been laid off or worried about it, this is the manual that you will need to help you get through this a little bit quicker. Hopefully they don't need it, but it's

Yeah!

Thanks for that feedback. Yeah.

I think it's, again, I wrote in our note before that I think this is a broader conversation. Maybe that's book number two for you to say, hey, how do we start to stop defining ourselves by our corporate jobs? And maybe Gen Z's figured it out. Maybe it's for the older generations that we need to take that look back. But yeah, we were way too emotionally tied to it, but easier said than done,

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Thanks for the feedback on the book too, and the book length. I've heard that from a lot of people. It's designed to be a real practical guide. It's, you I think about it like if, if somebody's drowning, you know, you want to throw them a life preserver. You don't want to throw them like this giant thing, right? This is something that you can use real quickly. Get you through this, get you on your feet so that you can then get back into the interview.

and back on the path to landing another job. So it's very practical. There's exercises at the end of each chapter that you can do for reflection and introspection. So it's designed to be like real, real usable and digestible.

Yeah, no, I appreciate that. So like I said, most big books is I do make a commitment to any author that comes on the podcast to read their book and some of them are like 350 pages and it's a textbook. I'm like, you're killing me. And, did I give it the thorough reading that it probably deserved? No, but, but I think this is the, the attention span. I appreciate a good book, but gets to the point. So

Hahaha!

Like I said, if you do write book number two, keeping the same format, you've got me. I think you get a lot of people to be honest with you that prefer these action first type of book, but you still have the personality and the stories in it. So it's not like it just, like I said, it's not a textbook, but it's got your own journey. So yeah, so well done.

All right.

Yeah. Yeah.

Thank you. Thank you. Appreciate it.

And at some point too, and I can even talk to you offline, I'd love to get you, because again, with the number of our escapees that have been laid off or recently laid off, maybe there's something else we can do with a workshop or some other things that we can try to get in front of some more folks. So I want to be respectful of time. So is there anything that we didn't cover that you think folks would find helpful?

Yeah, yeah, love to, love to.

No, no, if all of this sounds good, can check out the book. It's on Amazon. You can get anywhere you like to buy books. It's called The Layoff Journey from Dismissal to Discovery. You can visit my website. can learn more about me, learn more about the book. You can even download a free chapter. My website is thestevejaffee.com.

You can get me on LinkedIn. I've got a blog on Substack. I'm also on Instagram. So wherever you like to get content, I'm there. I'm happy to connect with people. I'm happy to be a part of somebody's network and I'm happy to be helpful. So anything I can do, that's what I'm trying to do.

That's awesome. And we'll put up, make sure we'll put all those in the show notes for those of you actually read show notes. I think enunciating is perfect with AI and they can go figure out where I am. But yeah, definitely check out your website too. Yeah. And connect with you on LinkedIn. Like I said, it was, you would have been helpful for me a number of years ago, but I know the vast majority of people are just heading through this, this process. So I appreciate you taking some time today. And unfortunately, I think you're going to be as busy as you

want to be for as long as you want to be.

Thanks for the time Brad, I appreciate it. Thanks for your audience. Okay.

All right, thanks, have a great rest of your day.