Is it too late to become a clinical psychologist?In this episode of Psychology, Actually, I’m joined by trainee clinical psychologist Claire Dunn, who started her journey at 40 and secured a place on the doctorate at 47.Together, we break down what retraining in psychology actually looks like practically, emotionally, and strategically.

Using real-life style examples of older applicants navigating career change, family life, and self-doubt.We explore pathways into clinical psychology, including conversion courses, assistant psychologist roles, NHS experience, and how to stay competitive when you feel “behind”.If you’re an aspiring psychologist wondering whether you’ve left it too late - this episode offers a grounded, honest roadmap.

⏱️ Timestamps

• 00:00 Is it too late to retrain in psychology?
• 01:13 Claire’s journey to training at 47
• 02:23 Case study: Sarah (career change from teaching)
• 04:30 Transferable skills and real-world experience
• 05:41 How much do you need to want this?
• 06:39 Studying later in life (Open University + flexibility)
• 08:56 Balancing study, work and parenting
• 10:35 When is the “right” time to retrain?
• 12:20 Should you focus on study or experience first?
• 14:32 Testing whether psychology is right for you
• 15:25 Making the most of academic support
• 16:19 Case study: Mark (NHS admin to psychology)
• 18:10 Feeling “behind” and imposter syndrome
• 19:05 Does a 2:2 limit your chances?
• 20:31 Strengthening applications with a master’s
• 21:51 Assistant psychologist vs further study
• 23:02 Why academic references matter
• 24:06 Staying connected with referees
• 25:27 Avoiding generic references
• 26:35 Gaining relevant clinical experience
• 28:21 Alternative pathways (CAP / PWP roles)
• 30:18 Is it really too late? Final thoughts

Links:

📲 Connect with Claire Dunn here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/claire-dunn-037480244/

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📚 To check out The Clinical Psychologist Collective Book: https://amzn.to/3jOplx0

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💡 To check out or join the aspiring psychologist membership for just £30 per month head to: https://www.aspiring-psychologist.co.uk/membership

🖥️ Check out my short courses for aspiring psychologists and mental health professionals here: https://www.aspiring-psychologist.co.uk/online-courses

Ask Marianne your most pressing psychology career question and she will send you a FREE bespoke reply! Grab your free psychology success guide here and fill in the most pressing concern box: https://www.aspiring-psychologist.co.uk (scroll to the bottom of the page)

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What if the thing stopping you from progressing your psychology career isn't your age, isn't your degree, and it isn't your grade? But the story you're telling yourself about what's possible. Every week I receive messages like, "I'm an older applicant and I don't have a psychology degree. Is it too late for me? " Or, "I've got a two-two and I haven't studied for a while. Have I ruined my chances?" Today I'm rejoined by a brilliant previous guest, 47-year-old Claire Dunn, who is a trainee clinical psychologist, and we are creating a roadmap for two older applicants. This isn't a fantasy you can do anything type conversation. It's a grounded and honest look at what retraining in psychology really involves practically, emotionally, and strategically. I hope you find it so useful if you do, like and subscribe for more. Hi, welcome along to the podcast. I am Dr. Marianne Trent, a qualified clinical psychologist, and I'm joined once again here today by the brilliant Claire Dunn, who is now officially a trainee clinical psychologist.

Hi, Claire.

Hi, Marianne. Thanks for having me back.

Thanks for coming back. And to be honest, we've never really been out of each other's WhatsApp and LinkedIn since we met, have we?

No, absolutely not. Yeah, it's been great. I've been picking your brains, haven't I? Throughout my course?

Well, I just like you, Claire, and sometimes my podcasts get to keep me as a little buddy after we meet, and I think you're one of those people. So we spoke before for our first episode about you having got onto training at the age of 47. So if people wanted to watch that first or afterwards, then that would be a great place to start. But we thought it would be really helpful to kind of have a look at a couple of different vignettes really for if somebody is like, "I think I want to be. " In this instance, a clinical psychologist we're going to talk about, but obviously lots of the things we're going to talk about might be comparable for other branches of psychology, but we're going to have a look at a couple of vignettes for if we were working with somebody in a team and they were like, "I've always loved to ... " The idea of what you do,

But I

Think it's too late or maybe I do want to do it, but I don't know where to begin. So we're kind of going down that road and we're going to kind of have a little bit of a look at what we would advise. So other options are available, other opinions are available, but you and I are both pretty crafty at job crafting, which is an episode I did with Jack. It was a brilliant episode as well. So if people are like, "What is job crafting?" Have a look at that one. Okay. So with no further ado, let me read this first vignette to you and to our audience. Give me one moment. Okay. So we've got Sarah who is 40 and works as a secondary school English teacher. She's been teaching for 15 years and is currently ahead of year. She has two children aged seven and 10.

She returned to full-time work after maternity leave, but has found the role increasingly emotionally draining. She's always been invested in psychology and mental health and is often the member of staff that pupils gravitate towards when they're struggling. She's completed safeguarding training, pastoral care work, and regularly liaises with CAMS, social care, and educational psychologists as part of her role. She achieved a two-one in her undergraduate degree, which was English literature, but has no formal psychology degree. She's got a few concerns. She feels too old to retrain and worries about starting again at the bottom. She's anxious about finances and balancing training with family life. She's unsure whether her teaching experience counts as relevant experience. She's worried she doesn't sound academic enough compared to younger applicants, and she's overwhelmed by the different routes and conversion courses and assistant roles, and kind of ed psych versus clin psych.

She has got a load of strength, so she's good at managing distress. She's got strong systems thinking, leadership, supervision of staff. She understands child development through lived and personal experience because she's a mama, and she's resilient time management, and she thinks she's pretty emotionally contained. All right, Claire. So if we had Sarah with us, what would we be thinking about with her?

Well, I mean, she's got so many transferable skills, hasn't she? Just looking at the vignette myself. Safeguarding, pastoral care, liaising with Cam, so the MDT work, social care, Ed Psyches. Yeah. I mean, she's definitely got options, isn't she? And definitely not too old. That's for sure. She's definitely not too old. Yeah. I think I'd kind of want to chat with Sarah to ask how passionate does she feel about this goal of retraining. It's absolutely achievable, but it's really hard work. Would this be the right time for her with the ages of her children? So I know they're seven and 10. I'm working with trainees that have younger children and they're managing and they're amazing. They're like super mums and super dads. I'd want to know, yeah, how much does she want this?

Yeah, it's a very good point. You do need to really want this. And it almost sounds like maybe she's thinking, "I need a change."

Yeah, maybe it is. Maybe it is like she really wants this. She's worked with the clinicians and she feels like this is her now, but it isn't easy. I guess if she wanted to explore her options, then maybe a psychology undergraduate degree is going to serve her well anyway, because it will help her to kind of solidify her thinking, to put theory, maybe not into practise now, but to kind of get it slotted up into her head ready for when and if she does do something. And maybe doing that with maybe somewhere like the Open University might be a really good way for her to not have to necessarily drop work that pays her, of course, when she's got a young family to support. I know that you did a degree with the Open University, didn't you?

I did. And I started that at the age of 40 and that was for me, that was my first degree. Sarah has a degree, doesn't she? So she could probably bypass the psychology undergrad and go straight for the master's conversion. But yeah, a degree at 40 is absolutely doable. I think at the time my children were, I think, 11 and 13 when I started. My daughter was definitely still at primary school. Yeah. And a degree with the open university is really good. It gives you that flexibility. You can study at a time that suits you. So a lot of my study would be of an evening. I worked during the daytime and I would do my study and assignments in the evening. It's really accessible open university, especially for older students and students with other commitments like family, children, and other jobs as well.

Yeah. I wrote the case study and I already forgot that she has a degree already. So yeah, she might well be able to do a two-year master's conversion. Do you know whether some employers are happy for people to take a bit of study leave to kind of work in their employed time? Or are you like, "I've got no idea, Marianne. I've got no

Clue." I don't know. The answer is I don't know. However, as a teacher, obviously term time is teachers work so incredibly hard, don't they? And some of my closest friends have been teachers. They've since left the profession, just as Sarah is thinking of doing so as well. But I suppose the upside is the school holidays and they would probably be a really good opportunity for Sarah. She's going to have to balance obviously childcare as well with the children in the school holidays, but maybe she'd have maybe more capacity and energy mentally within the school holiday periods. Although I know as mums, they're also are super busy periods as well, aren't they?

They are. And I do find, I'm obviously self-employed now, so I've got the luxury that I can kind of control my own diary. I do find that I need at least a week off when the kids break as well, and I'm not even working in a school. I genuinely need that time to down my tools and to just parent or just work without seeing clients. So I might do bits and pieces on my laptop, but I do really need that time as a parent. And I think there's a reason why the schools are organised in the way they are to give us kind of breaks every six weeks. It's because I think as humans, we respond really well to that.

It's a lot. It's a lot. And for Sarah, yeah, the ages of her children, seven and 10, it's a lot, but it probably is an ideal time for her. Her children are a little bit older. So if she was to do the two years master's conversion and she could do that part-time alongside her teaching and being a mom and a parent, that would also give her a bit of breathing space as well before she looks at going down the clinical psychology pathway or whether that's the educational psychologist pathway. It would give her a little bit of breathing space, I suppose, and the children would be a little bit older. But I still advocate it is possible. And like I say, I have trainees within my cohort that have children, younger children, and they're smashing it.

Yeah. I think they need you in a different way at that stage as well, don't they? So my eldest is quite confident and capable to occupy himself a little bit more than when they're very young, you can't do that. You'd struggle to write an essay at your kitchen table whilst they were watching see babies or whatever. Whereas I think when they get a little bit older, they might want to spend a bit more time by themselves anyway. All children are different. Of course they are, but there might be ... I think for me around that age, so when I left the NHS, when was that? 2021.

Yeah, my children were probably around that age is what I would say. My eldest one was around that age. And I just had this sense of, oh, okay, a bit more liberation. I don't need to be everything to these children anymore. Even that they get invited to play dates and stuff and they want to hang out with their friends and they're not just looking to me to be everything for them. And so that allowed me to carve out different niches in my own life. And I think to do that joy audit, that's really important to think about what do I enjoy, what ignites me? What do I not like doing, which will be an MDT meeting that is a way to kill Marianne and actually do more of what I like and less of what I don't. So with Sarah then, would we be saying that she just focus on the education for now rather than adding in any kind of additional experience type stuff for now?

I

Think so. I think she has a lot of responsibility already in her job. And like I say, she has an abundance of really transferable skills into psychology. For me, personally, I would say to Sarah, "Okay, get your master's, do your master's conversion course that will give you the accreditation that you need to apply for the doctorate and just focus on that for now." I think trying to gain other clinical experience, I think that'd be too much. She works full-time. She's a teacher in her secondary school. I mean, I think teachers are absolutely amazing, patience of saints.

Yeah. And I think it's just different. So the children of this current generation are just different to teach and different to try and, I don't know, toe the line. As a teacher, you need to be able to get the pack to behave themselves generally, don't you? And I think that's just from my experiences of listening to stories from my eldest son's secondary that's becoming harder and harder. So Sarah is probably exhausted and I'm not surprised she's thinking it's tricky.

And they're not just teachers anymore, are they? Teacher friends of mine have said, "We're not just there to teach. We're there in a safeguarding capacity. We're there as social workers. We're there as therapists." They wear so many hats and are so experienced and it would be a great loss to education for Sarah to leave, but their loss would be our gain because we could have Sarah come and work with us. And we certainly need more Sarahs coming into the profession.

Yeah. So do your masters, check that you actually really do like it. You might discover that actually you really love the research stuff and you might go into research or you might decide that actually you'd want to be a clinical associate psychologist or a PWP and that might light you up, but do the masters and I think just see what you think. See what you think to studying again as well, because of course that will have been some time ago. And when you are studying, do reach out for your student support service and your Centre for Academic Writing and all of that stuff to help you because you are in essence paying their wages as well. They're a service that you should use and shouldn't feel any stigma about using.

So yeah, I mean, I highly recommend the Open University. They do do the master's conversion course. I also know that Brunelle do offer the course. Brunelle University offer the course remotely as well. So I would recommend a hundred percent that she looks into this and really considers, but that return to education and studying will also help to inform her whether this is the right path for her. It certainly was for me. I started studying and I don't ever want to stop. My body's telling me to stop, but my brain just wants to keep going. So yeah, I think go for it.

Amazing. Okay. So we've got a green light to proceed to the next stage, which for Sarah looks like it might involve the master's. Do you want to guide us through the next vignette, Claire?

Absolutely. Okay. So case study number two, we have Mark. He's a 35 year old male and NHS office manager. So he works in a community mental health service. He manages rotors, referrals, waiting lists, and service data. He works closely with psychologists, nurses, psychiatrists, and support workers, but does not currently have a clinical role. He has a Bachelor of Science in Psychology, achieving a two-two, and he completed that 12 years ago. At the time, he lacked confidence and direction and didn't apply for assistant psychologist roles. He moved into admin for financial stability and he stayed there ever since. He's single, lives alone, and works full-time. So his current concerns are Mark feels stuck and worries that he has wasted time. He believes his admin role isn't good enough for applications. He lacks confidence speaking about himself and his skills. He feels behind his peers who qualified years ago and worries about being a man in a predominantly female profession.

He struggles with imposter syndrome and comparison. So his strengths are excellent understanding of NHS systems, pathways and pressures, regular exposure to clinical decision making, risk management and service delivery, strong organisational communication and leadership skills. He's trusted by clinicians and often acts as an informal bridge between teams and he remains calm under pressure and is used to holding complexity.

So what he wants, Mark wants to become a clinical psychologist, but feels unclear on whether he should apply for AP roles or further study, how to make his current role more relevant, how to talk reflectively rather than descriptively, and whether he is competitive enough. He wants a practical plan rather than vague encouragement.

Okay then, Mark. Thank you. And what I would say is you sound like you're amazing at your job. Admin are the backbone

Of

Kind of mental health services. So don't underestimate what you're doing and how much people do value you. And you're probably that person that in the office, people are like, "I don't know. Ask Mark." Mark

Will know.

Mark will know. Mark will definitely know because he's dependable and reliable. So don't underestimate you and what you're doing. The only reservation I've got is the two two. And obviously I came pretty close to a two-two myself. There's a lot of reasons why that might have been around for Mark. If you were to apply to the doctorate in clinical psychology via the clearing house, lots of courses will not accept two-two unless you've got evidence that kind of strengthens you academically. So what I would say is looking into a master's to evidence that Mark is kind of strong in that would be kinder because you could carry on applying year after year to the doctorate in clinical psychology and then not get shortlisted. And it might be because you're just being screened out at that very early stage. And really we do want you to feel like you do have strengths in academia, that's not scaring you off because it's so much a part of what we're doing.You were in your first year currently and you said you've already had to put in your research proposal for your dissertation, for your thesis, sorry.

So it is part of what we do and we're aiming to be scientist practitioners that conduct research and weave it into our practise. Have you got any thoughts on Mark Claire?

Yeah. So having already completed the psychology degree, obviously unlike Sarah, he already has that insight into psychology and the profession and the subject matter around psychology. He sounds really motivated to qualifying as a clinical psychologist, obviously expresses how his peers around him, he feels that they've kind of overtaken him and they've gone on to qualify. He's in a great situation. The two two doesn't need to be a barrier. Like you said, Marianne, he can go ahead and he can complete his master's conversion, come out with a really good grade. But yes, you are right with the DCLIN process, clearing house. I think all the vast majority are looking for high two ones to get onto their particular DCLIN programme, but he can go and do a master's, lots of transferable skills yet again. I'd probably be interested in seeing, in terms of the AP assistant psychologist roles, is that something that he's looking to go onto once he has his master's?

What do you think?

Because he could pursue that now and do

His

Master's at the same time.

Yeah, he could.

Because when you're applying for an assistant psychologist role, you are often competing with somebody that's maybe already worked in relevant experience roles for many years or a couple of years,

And

Maybe they've graduated a while ago, or they've already got something under their belt. So Mark's already got those some things now. He could probably, if we could ... I think sometime in the aspiring psychologist membership might not be a bad thing. We could help raise his confidence and help him practise skills and talking about himself and talking reflectively. But yeah, so you raise a valid point. He could do the masters, but he could be doing some other relevant experience roles at the same time. And depending on what level he's at, I used to work with administrators that were kind of level band three, band four, band five, band six. He might already be kind of at a similar pay level to AP as well. So he might be able to kind of move with less pain financially.

Also, I don't want Mark to feel like because he's got a two-two that it's punitive, like he's got to do a master's because actually lots of applicants who already have a two-one, sometimes even a first, will also do a master's because that helps to strengthen them. So this isn't a, "Oh, I've got to. " It's like I get to, but also that's going to really help me to optimally show myself as being capable and competent and to get your hand in a bit more because you haven't studied for a while. And so to be fresh and to have, I think a fresh academic reference can be really great as well. So what I would say for anyone that's undertaking a master's or even an undergrad is make very good friends with your academic supervisor so that they do know you. So maybe not friends, that might be a bit strong, but make sure you're going for meetings.

Make sure that they genuinely do know about you and your work and your research so that when you ask them to write you a reference next year, the year after, the year after that, they're like, "Oh, Mark. Yeah, I remember Mark." Otherwise, it can be really tricky, can't it, Claire?

Yeah, absolutely. I stayed in contact with my final year undergrad tutor. I'd heard that the university, for example, like a lot of the universities, will provide a very generic reference suitability statement for the DClean. So I was quite strategic actually. I kind of kept in contact. He was a great tutor, absolutely great. Alberto was his name. He was wonderful. And I stayed in contact. So when it came to that suitability statement for the DCLIN application, I was able to put in his email address, his open university direct email address, because I have heard from others that their universities where they did their undergrad or they did their master's, provide these very generic references, suitability statements. So yeah, a little trick. Yeah, stay in contact with them.

And get their email, get their actual email rather than the generic admin ones that it's more likely

To end up in the right place. Yeah. Brilliant advice. So he could stay where he is and do his master's. He could move on and apply for AP roles or maybe he could be thinking about, well, could I join an NHS bank service and maybe do a shift a week in a clinical setting? So perhaps as a support worker, an HCA, that kind of thing on like an inpatient ward or kind of something like that, maybe he could, depending on his time and his inclination, he could go and do some work doing home caring or caring work in a home, something to give him experience of the clinical populations that clinical psychologists would work with, which would be people with intellectual disabilities, children, young people and families, adult mental health, older adults, broadly speaking, other areas are of course available, but generically that's the areas that we look at.

So what does he enjoy? What could he do that might be a paid opportunity? And I don't love advocating for unpaid work, but lots of people do volunteer with services like Shout and the Samaritans and stuff like that. So it's giving your time in a way that is not taking up loads of it, but you're also getting access to that work that helps your skills and confidence to grow.

Yeah, absolutely. He's definitely got options. I think if it's not a pay cut for him to apply for assistant psychologist roles would be a really smart move actually. And I think he'd be a really good candidate. Securing your first AP role can be really difficult. And we hear that it can take some people months and months and months to get that interview and to secure that first post. But working within the NHS and having an understanding of NHS systems and clinical work, albeit he's not working clinically directly himself, he does have that understanding of how that looks and how that works. And I think it put him in a really strong position actually to apply for AP roles. And AP roles are not the gold standard contrary to belief. They are not the gold standard for the DCLIN applications. They are just one route. And that's one route that he can access off the back of his degree that he currently has.

He can. And I've just had another idea, Claire. So depending on where he lives in the country or in the UK, he also could apply for clinical associate psychologist training, which actually is a master's and is paid. Now, the difficulty with that, it's not really difficulty, but the barrier to that is that once you qualify, if you've had kind of a funding to do that, which you would be because you're paid, you then have to have at least two years pass before you can then go on and have additional funding to do your doctorate. But we would hope that he would really like being a clinical associate psychologist and would want to do that for a few years. If he hated it, it might be a sign, actually, I don't want to go on and become a clinical psychologist, but also once you've had that funding and the same for psychological wellbeing practitioner, if you've had the funding to do that, you don't necessarily have to do that job afterwards.

You just can't have more funding straight away. So if you wanted to go on from your PWP course and then go on and become an assistant psychologist, then you could, but you couldn't have any additional funding whilst you're waiting. So yeah, depending on where he lives and whether they're doing intakes for that, a trainee CAP role might work really well for him.

Yeah, it's a really good option. They paid at band five, then they get paid at band six when they qualify. Yeah, clinical associate psychologists, also known as CAPS. I have a couple within my cohort who were CAPS and the CAP pathway I obviously waited the two years before applying for the DCLIN. It set them up really well, put them in a really strong position for the DCLIN application process. I think that's a really good option. I think I'm telling Mark, "Get a cap run, Mark."

Go on. Go on, Mark. Do it.

And you'll get a pay rise. You'll be banned fire.

And if anyone's watching or listening to this and they're like, "Oh, I could be Mark. I could be Sarah. That's a really good idea." Or, "What about this? " We would welcome comments and questions. So people can comment on YouTube. They can do a Q&A on Spotify or harass me down on social media where I'm Dr. Marianne Trent everywhere. Any other thoughts or kind of takeaway points for people that are thinking, "I think I want to be a psychologist, but I'm a bit older, I guess." Or even if they're 24 and they've graduated and they're like, "I've done history. Oh, what did I do that for? " Any advice? I know we're looking at older applicants because we want to empower them and have that sense of it not being too late, but any other parting thoughts, Claire?

So yeah, for me, anything I post about my journey in relation to my career change, transitioning into academia in my 40s, I get a lot of interest and a lot of people will reach out to me. A lot of people will private message me on LinkedIn and ask for advice where they're in a similar situation. And my advice is always very, very clear. If you are motivated and you set yourself ambitious goals and it's a pathway that you want to take, then go for it. There is no age limit. We offer so much more as mature students. We come with lived experience. Older applicant trainees, we have a lot to offer. I'd also like to say with regards to that also, I have quite a young cohort. They too come with an abundance of experience, a lot of really rich lived experience and clinical experience.

And I've learned so much from the younger members of my cohort. We all have something to offer and the sky's the limit as far as I'm concerned. Do I wish I'd done it sooner? Nah, I'd do it now. Because if I'd have done it sooner, I wouldn't have had my previous career.

Would you start again now? So if you were retired medically now from the police force at 47, would you do it now?

Yes. Yes, I would. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you look at retirement. Retirement age is rising, isn't it? I think for my generation, it's probably going to be probably in our 70s before we're going to be allowed to retire. But yeah, easily a good solid 20, 25 years. I don't ever intend to retire. I suppose it's your outlook. I'm very driven. I get a lot out of my working identity. So for me, it was really important. It's not the be all and end all for everybody else, but if it's something you want and you're prepared to graft at it, then go for it. Sky's the limit.

Yeah, I totally agree. And I don't necessarily predict myself retiring because even if you've got 25 years left of work, why not make it something that you love?

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. No regrets. I'm wonderfully exhausted in my first year as a trainee, balanced in placement and university and life, but I still feel like I've won the bloody lottery, getting a place. And it feels an absolute privilege to be walking this pathway and you can do too.

That's so wonderful. What lovely advice to leave it on, and it's always a privilege to speak with you. So thank you for sharing your wisdom, your compassion, and your very wise words, Claire.

Thank you, Marian. Lovely to see you again.

And you. Take care.

Take care. Bye now.

What an absolute pleasure to speak with Claire. And we had to cut the very end of our post chat short because I had to go and run and help my little boy who has migraines and he was running to the toilet to be sick. I didn't even realise he was sick before then. I had to go and help clear up the hallway and my son. So these are some of the real life challenges of parenting children, certainly the real life experience for my nine-year-old. Have you got any experience of having migraines yourself or maybe for your children as well? Yeah, it's certainly blights our life at times, but he is a trooper. So yeah, thanks to Claire for allowing me to dash off so soon. How have you found this episode? I would love to know what's it evoked for you? What thoughts have you got?

Let me know in the comments, whether you are watching on YouTube or whether you're listening on Apple or Spotify or somewhere else good too. You can always come and connect with me on social media. I'm Dr. Marianne Trent. Please do tag me in your stories if you are enjoying the content. I love to hear from you. And I genuinely think if this content resonates with you, that you would really love the aspiring psychologist membership, which you can join from just 30 pounds a month with no minimum term. It gets wonderful reviews. And we do get people places as assistant psychologists. We get people places on PWP courses. We get people interviews and place office on the doctorate in clinical psychology schemes too. So what's not to love? Dive in, give us a try for a month, and if you don't like it, you can swan out there, but that happens very rarely.

I have to say people do like it and they do benefit. I genuinely believe that psychologists are not just born in the spring. Takes a year round approach. But that said, if you've got interviews coming up, you are welcome to dive in and you'll get access to all of the replay content from the last four years. That's right. We turned four years old in February.