In the latest episode of the St. Supéry Sips podcast, part two in a series of conversations with prominent California chefs, winery CEO Emma Swain chatted about sustainable seafood with Stuart Brioza, chef and co-owner at State Bird Provisions, The Progress, and The Anchovy Bar in San Francisco.

Brioza’s passion for sustainable seafood began when he opened State Bird Provisions in 2012. He carried that enthusiasm over to The Progress and The Anchovy Bar, which opened in 2014 and 2020, respectively. At all of his restaurants, Brioza aims to use every part of the animal or plant to avoid food waste.

Hi. I'm Emma Swain. I'm the CEO at St. Supery Estate Vineyards and Winery here in the beautiful Napa Valley. And welcome back to the St. Supéry Sips Podcast. We're continuing our series on sustainable seafood. And I'm so excited to have with us today Chef Stuart Brioza, the chef and co-owner with his lovely wife of State Bird Provisions and the Progress in San Francisco.

As well as the anchovy bar. So welcome, Chef Stuart. Great to have you here.

Well, it's a pleasure to talk to you. I'm really looking forward to this conversation.

And Chef, each of your and Nicole's restaurants have a focus on sustainability, mostly notably sustainable seafood. When did you develop this passion for sustainability? And responsible sourcing? Because it's you have to really work at it.

Well, Emma, that's a great question. You know, I think sort of sustainability and responsible sourcing really kind of became the residue of design when it came down to the restaurants. You know, we wanted to find ways, I think State Bird really sort of set the template for us where we kind of turned cooking on its ear through the lens of like kind of we wanted to figure out a way to kind of crack the code on how you can serve every bit and bubble of every plant or fish or animal that was coming through the door.

Right. And we we kind of developed this unique system of passing food on trays and cards, which really gives you a lot of creativity and a lot of autonomy when it comes to product, your product utilization, right? So think we roast turnips, for example, and we serve a beautiful little turnip dish and then the greens become another dish, right?

Or maybe we blanch them in dashi and then serve it with like an old Japanese kind of ohitashi style, you know? And so we are able to extend our ingredients and make multiple dishes that didn't require a printing of a menu, right? Where we just put it on a tray or a cart and then pass it around.

And let's just say you have six orders of something. It just was you could visually have a roaming menu through the dining room. And, you know, this just led to opportunities everywhere in in our world. And when you say specifically seafood, you know, we started to look at every piece of fish that we would bring it and how do we really do something that's unique that showcases the whole fish, but not necessarily serving the whole fish at one time.

Right. So I'll give you an example. Trout is a great example of this. You know, we work with McFarlane Springs Trout, which is a very sustainable fish farming operation up in Shasta County. And the trout comes in and we are you know, we fillet that well. We the way we cut it is, is that we kind of cut the head where it gives you the colors and a little bit of neck meat, right?

And then we cut the tails where you kind of cut up about three inches. So rather than filling the fish from head to tail and serving somebody, that tail piece, we're able to take the center cut pieces and still really give people a nice fillet of fish. But we have what we call, you know, fish parts and fish parts or everything else.

So it's the belly. It's the tail on the bone. Right. So it's a beautiful presentation, the belly as well. It's got the little dorsal fin attached to it. You know, you're able to serve the collar. And and so all of this plays a significant role. And then what we do is we take the frames of those fish after we fillet them.

And we we lightly salt them. We hot smoke them, we scrape the frames with a spoon and it comes off like butter and then we make like a fish dip, a smoked fish dip. So what we've gotten out of this dish is we've got one, two, three, four, five different dishes out of one fish that still allow equality among each of those dishes to to their quality and equality of the fish to be retained.

So, you know, I think State Bird really lent itself, and we took that philosophy as we continued with the other restaurants.

You know, I think that's really interesting because when we think about our carbon footprint, people don't think about the food waste. And particularly in America, what an enormous amount of food waste we have at home and and in restaurants. And that's really taking it just absolutely to the next level. I love that. It's wonderful.

We have we have a mantra in the restaurant that basically says that the compost bin is a missed opportunity of a creative a missed creative opportunity. So that's something that I like to think about when we're when we're working with food is, is that, you know, sure. We can compost, but is there an opportunity still within whatever that ingredient is that we could turn into something delicious and respectful and, and, you know, get creative with it?

I love that I am my go to is always broth and then and then the compost bin. I'm the big broth maker, but I clearly need to be a little bit more creative. I know I can do that more so you you recently hosted an an incredible dinner event at the progress alongside chef Kyle showcasing frozen sustainable seafood from a kind of blue Many chefs use flash frozen products for quality and traceability and reducing their carbon footprints and a lot of other factors.

And what what should chefs consider in selection and sourcing when moving to a sustainable seafood menu?

Mm. Well, you know, I think really understanding and knowing the resource, the source of where the fish is coming from is is imperative. You've got to do your homework in, in, in the case of the Sakana Blue, in the event that we, we did, I was doing my homework, I was learning a lot as we, as we went along.

And particularly what I found interesting and fascinating was some of the technology that is being implemented in the reduction of carbon footprint in much of that is just that the super freezing technology that I'm still a little a little gray on. However, I think I understand the concept, which is, is it's taking a pristine product or a pristine seafood item, filling and sending only what is 100% edible, right?

You're not shipping heads and tails and bodies that are going to go into someone else's compost. You're, you're, you know, they're shipping filets so 100% utilization of the seafood item it's it's frozen at a at a very rapid rate to a at a very low low temperature something in the -30 to 50 degree temperature and then rather than air freighting, you know, they're they're shipping via boats and things that are we're really able to maximize the the the carbon footprint of the shipping costs.

Right. The shipping I'm sorry the shipping means you know I think as far as sourcing seafood sustainable seafood is this is a tricky one. I think that there's a lot of information out there that is very misleading. Words are used in ways that sort of maybe misrepresent the truth of seafood. And this is something that has gotten blurrier as the years go on.

And yet at the same time, I do believe that there are heroes out there who are truly trying to to kind of remove the gray area in this and and really have truth in seafood. I guess, you know, Emma, that the question that I continually ask of my seafood purveyors is, is where, how, when, you know, I'm just like what are they feeding?

When is it harvested? How is it caught? How, you know, what's the catch like? Are we working within the regulations? You know, and I think in the US we've gotten really good at managing fisheries for sure. It gets a little scary the farther away you go from from the US, just the relationship with the oceans is much different.

And the the, the, the areas of, you know, sustainability are less important right. Where quality of seafood still reigns supreme. And I think that we need to really re tweak this question, right? We need to be looking at seafood through a sustainable lens first and foremost. And quality should really be right there I think that if it's if we're already going to the distance of harvesting and fishing sustainably, I imagine that again through that lens of design that the quality would be absolutely imperative already.

I think we just need to flip that conversation a bit. Many countries are all about the quality, first, quality, quality, quality and Japan too. And you know, and this is this is a challenging conversation, I think in the seafood world. And I do agree. I mean, quality absolutely has to be there. It has to be there. But it also it's got to it's got to work within you know, it's got to be sustainable first.

Right. And it's got to be you know, it's got to be we I think it comes down to species. Species kind of help determine sustainability. If you ask me.

Well, yeah. I mean, when we talk about mollusks or any kind of bivalve and the benefit that they're adding to the ocean as well through the filtration is is really important where we're getting into a restorative aquaculture versus just a sustainable agriculture. And I think that's that's an important component that we need to do. But but also going back to this flash freezing, you know, I've been reading about pizzas being cryogenically frozen in 4 seconds.

Right and then and shipped and retaining this great flavor. And and I think, you know, perhaps the older some of us are, the more that we have a negative association with frozen food. And the frozen food today is so completely different. And that part of part of our job is to bring to our guests. The reality of today is frozen food is actually your freshest and most sustainable option in many cases.

And I mean, I'm curious how you communicate that with with your team and and with your guests when you if you get pushback back at all today.

Who I don't I don't think that well, I don't think we get pushback on serving any type of frozen seafood. And I think that as chefs, it's our responsibility that we have to embrace this idea of frozen seafood and look at it as a as a as a sustainable tool and another another important like lesson that we can teach and be taught from those who are doing incredible work in this area.

And that's that to me is fascinating. I, I, you know, we do serve a small amount of frozen seafood, and it really follows some pretty strict guidelines for me. You know, right now we use an albacore that's coming off of a small it's basically a small boat that is fishing albacore and is able to make a living. I mean, I look at this as very important.

This is that albacore season is short and they're able to fish the albacore and sell the albacore through the year. By this kind of really amazing freezing technology that they have and command a high price for that albacore versus that albacore going to the commodity market and being tinned or shipped out or turned into animal food or pet food.

Or something like that. So I think that it's a respectful way. And this technology is at our fingertips. It's here. And so that's what's really fascinating as far as customers go, you know, I think that they don't even know and nor do they need to necessarily if the food is good, that's what's most important trade. And so it's not like it's something on our menu that was like, you know, here we go, you know, sustainably caught albacore previously frozen now and a smart diner would know and maybe ask the question is is albacore in season right now right.

And and you know then that opens up a whole you know opportunity to educate and to talk about some of this freezing technology.

Yeah that's a that's a very good point. We're not we're not in the grocery store, but we need to ask that question when we're in the grocery store and and rely on our our chefs and our restaurant tours when we're when we're young. So dining out to be thoughtful. And I think that that's what's going to drive the the blue revolution is people being more thoughtful about what they ask and, you know, if it's not a sustainable product, not in season, then not ordering it, I think.

Yeah.

You know, understanding that and asking.

Them that's the client that how do you know that's that's the thing it's it's it's you know, I think it's a constant even as a chef who's in it every day, I'm always asking those questions and questioning the buying practices, you know, that we have. And they do evolve. They have to evolve. Right. We have to we have to you know, I think I started cooking when you could have any fish at your doorstep.

Right. And anything from anywhere. And it wasn't about its providence. Right. Or location that it came from. It was more or less like, look at how beautiful I've got you know, I remember cooking years ago in Chicago when we were working with Rouget and Sardines from the Mediterranean and Turbot from, you know, off the coast of Brittany. And I remember like, wow, this is just the we're so great that we have these incredible seafood items and I don't you know, now, that would not be the case, you know, at all.

And that was that was not that long ago. I mean, that was 25 years ago. You're right. And that's not that long ago. And I have very fond memories of Dover Sole on Fridays and, you know, Turbot midweek and, you know, rouget and sardines and, you know, skate wing and monkfish and just a plethora of abundance. And now it's the abundance I think is really focused definitely in California, where we're more in tune with, you know, serving seafood that is coming from our waters.

In the proper season, fresh for sure. But finding ways to extend those seasons, whether it's through freezing technology, or obviously things like curing or smoking of seafood as well.

Yeah. You also recently hosted a Seafood Stories No. By Fisherman event at your space, the workshop to benefit the Fish Revolution. At the event, you featured a lot of sustainable seafood recipes and also the stories of the fishermen behind the seafood. And your menu features a wide array of purveyors that you select for their transparency and quality. And you know, that's so important at the winery we're using or picking up the salmon because we can trace every single fish and that's the, you know, what we're using very often unless we have a local sustainable source when it's in season.

What are areas that that other chefs could consider and selection and sourcing when they're there moving along? How do you select those purveyors? Are there certain criteria that you're looking for?

Yeah, yeah. Well, that's a great question. You know, I think that your purveyors become some of your best friends, right, when you're working with purveyors. And, you know, you just listen. You ask a lot of questions. Again, you pepper every order with a lot of questions so that if you were asked these questions that you would you would have an answer for your customer or your waiter or your young cook who's just learning about seafood.

You know, it's our responsibility to really to really to to to have answers to the questions that aren't asked, if that makes sense. That's something that's really key. The other is, is that I think that there you had mentioned bivalves and mollusks. I think that you almost can't go wrong with oysters, clams, mussels, scallops, which is limited as far as scallop farming goes.

But these are these are the I like to look at that. They kind of fall into a category of net positive seafood choices. Right. They're incredibly nutritious for you. Right. We know this. They're also they're they're farm raised. Very, very few are getting wild right. But they're farm raised in the oceans requiring no food. Right. The food is coming through phytoplankton that is floating within the ocean.

It's time and it's good stewarding on the farmer's perspective. And what these also do is, is that they they prove the natural habitat in which that they're farmed. And we see things like eelgrass in the estuaries we see we see small habitats. And the eelgrass is very important because it promotes it. It gives in and the environment for young seafood to lay their eggs.

Right. For crabs and shellfish to exist, for birds and avian life. And it creates a kind of a full circle ecosystem. And that's just through this sort of filter feeding process of the of the the shellfish. So more and more, I think that, you know, it's very important. And all of our restaurants have a pretty significant amount of shellfish in the form of mussels, clams and oysters on the menu as people you can never go wrong with this.

Right. You just can't. You know, in many shellfish farms, they work in conjunction with environmental groups they work in conjunction with scientists who are studying marine biology. Many of the farmers themselves are educated in marine biology. So they're kind of at the forefront of what's happening. Right. If if their oyster production is going down for some reason, that's a big problem.

Right? So they're at the forefront. It's to their best efforts to make sure that all three of these categories are really, really closely monitored. The next as far as seafood, I really think it's imperative that especially in this farmed seafood arena, is is that there is a lot of interesting feeding processes that are happening out there. And, you know, perhaps, you know, one of the biggest challenge is among farmed seafood is the fact that it requires so much wild seafood to feed the fish right now, fish and when they're farming, when they're out fishing for wild seafood that goes into fish food it's commodity pricing.

And I think anchovies fall into this realm. Right. And if, you know, I'm pretty fond of the anchovy I love the idea of eating from the bottom up of the of the of the food chain and anchovies you know, for for my anchovies when they're in season, which that season is just about ready to begin. And, you know, we're paying upwards of $5 a pound for live seafood.

Right. Live anchovies that come to my kitchen about 2 hours out of water. Now, are are some of the other anchovy fishermen that are buying that are fishing for food right. To to go into fish farming. They're selling I think it's something like $250 per 500 lbs. Right. And it's being kind of boxed up shipped across the world going into some sort of tuna farming and then that tuna is fattened up and then it's shipped back across the world.

Right. So you kind of just do the math, you know, the carbon footprint math, the you know, how much we're pulling from the ocean, a valuable resource and selling it at commodity pricing. You know, that's a that's a that's an issue. So, you know, I'm really fond of when I'm reading articles and learning more about fish farming that relies more on algae based food.

Right. That, you know, where they're growing algae and then feeding a diet of of algae. I think it really works from a nutritive standpoint and also the environmental standpoint on all levels. Right. I mean, you can really dig deep and you can just kind of you can go down that rabbit hole and learn so much. And this is a pretty new ish concept, I would say in the last decade and a half or so.

And expensive for sure.

And requires resources, requires education. And I think we're seeing more of that now, which is which is really a win win.

But I think - you say expensive. It's expensive in the in the short term, but in the long term, it's not because we have to focus on those options that that are sustainable for the long term solution. And I think often, you know, we have a lot of food waste because sometimes food is too cheap in in certain scenarios when we're not producing it in a thoughtful manner.

And I want to go back to when you were talking about the grasses. I think, you know, what really struck me there is just the concept of biodiversity. And if we're going to have any sort of restorative our aquaculture, any sort of restore restoration of our oceans, we really need to focus on that biodiversity. And it starts with the grasses, the kelp the smaller creatures growing and building that that pyramid back up.

And it's the same with what we do with restorative agriculture, right? That's how we treat our soil, just like we have the plankton. That's what we have in that soil and what we're what we're growing and being thoughtful about and maintaining that balance and where we see areas that are overfished, there's there is no kelp. There's no there's nothing in the ocean there.

And that's where we we've got to start at the as you say, at the bottom of the food chain and bring it back up.

Right? Yeah. And kelp, I think, is a is a great example and a very renewable resource for the ocean. I mean, it's got I don't know, I think I read recently, like not not just kelp, but sea lettuce in general is like a 35 day like sort of maturation process, you know, period, which is nothing. Right? I mean, that's a head of lettuce.

Yeah. When you think about that. Right, or a radish so I mean, it's just so it's so like that's exciting because you're like, oh, wait, we can really, you know, have an immense effect on, on the health of the oceans by, by farming and, you know, giving it, you know, providing opportunities for the ocean to sort of rebound.

You know, I think, yeah, you're right. The it is a holistic approach. Right. And, you know, I think to have good oyster farming, you have to have a really great healthy environment. Right. I love the saying and you know, I actually just said this to one of my cooks who who is spending a year with us from abroad.

And, you know, I just floated the idea that, you know, we focus on we are what we eat, eat concept trade. And that's not new, but it's something that's new for a lot of people. Right. It used to be you are what you eat and now you are what you eat eats. And, you know, if your oysters are being farmed in a very healthy environment, right.

Where there's just a very holistic, you know, environmental practice, your oysters are going to taste better. They're going to look better. They're going to be you know, they're they're going to be much more resistant to any sort of fluctuations in temperature. And, you know, and tidal changes and things that are real. Right. And especially like heavy rainfall. Right.

I mean, you know, when there's heavy rainfall, we don't we don't we don't harvest oysters right. Because you've got the change in salt levels. You've got the change you've got the runoff from you know, from the hills that are ocean side. But, you know, how do these these oysters can continue to survive, right? They just are they've got to kind of get back to their normal levels.

And so if you have a healthy, healthy ecosystem, those oysters are going to have a much higher chance of of just, you know, proliferating. And if they're doing well, so is everything else. Right? Right. And vice vice versa.

Yeah, because they're cleaning the water. I mean, and also, you know, I remember taking food microbiology in college and and we would talk about oysters as being this high risk food group for from a food safety perspective. And today, the way that we farm oysters, I mean, that's just not a reality because you're using UV light to sterilize the water before the water goes through and does a final filtration.

And, and you still have that "meroir" that you're looking for, but you also have a completely different level of food safety than we used to have in most.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But, but let's go back to the seaweed a little bit because you do feature seaweed in a number of items on your menu. Why is seaweed important to you from a flavor perspective as well as an environmental perspective?

Well, I think seaweed is, is, you know, from the California coast, I mean I didn't grow up eating local seaweed, but, you know, as I became, you know, as, as seaweed became more, I guess, harvested in ways that were abundance, they became more and more appealing, for sure. And I love I mean, I just love the flavor of seaweed.

I love what you can do with it. I love the fact that seaweed can be not only paired with you know, seafood, of course, but I think it can also really, really lend itself well to like a surf and turf kind of kind of way of cooking. And, you know, I'm you know, I think seaweed is also it's it's incredibly nutritious.

So it's it's a win win with seaweed. Right. And we use specifically Nori off the Mendocino coast. And it is wild harvested and it's harvested essentially the entire year's worth of harvest happens in about six weeks. It's coming up. It's mid-May through like the first week of June. Or so. And that's kind of when the title is low.

The seaweed is is is at its largest. And you know, I think it's it's just it's just an amazing ingredient. And we use it boy, at all three restaurants in different ways, whether it's to flavor broths, anchovy bar. We use it for a whipped butter that we that we simply serve with potatoes. Steamed potatoes at at progress will do kind of a fermented vegetable seaweed broth that's paired with abalone and I think, you know, with farmed abalone, of course, and abalone, obviously, it's it lives on a diet of seaweed.

Right. So so it's a nice way of of you know, kind of telling the full circle of the abalone slave, serving it with its with its seaweed. It's its food you know, I think we're going to see more and more seaweed in the future because of this this idea that we can that seaweed is a is a very renewable resource.

And there's a lot more farming that's happening. As you were talking earlier about a friend of yours down in Southern California, that's doing I've seen it out of Monterey, you know, Monterey and all the way up through Santa Cruz and pescatarian.

Yeah. I think it's an important component that we're there were growing more seaweed than we're taking out of the ocean. And that one of the things that Carlsbad Aqua Farm is doing is they're specifically cultivating cultivars that are interesting. I think of it like, you know, we have all the varietals, like we have varietals of wine, but then, you know, whether it's corn six Cabernet or, you know, this specific clone of seaweed that you want and they're really looking for flavor while having a big nod to ocean restoration.

And they want, you know, it grows so fast that they want to have it available, but also restoring and reforesting the ocean simultaneously so that you have a sustainable product. And they're making like gummy bears with it. I mean, they're doing a lot of really fun things with seaweed, invasive.

It's in a very odd seaweed kind of thing. The other day, it was maybe it was like a like a little not a chocolate, but kind of like a little a little seaweed ball that was like flavored with dates kind of weather, you know? And it was it was very, very strange to I don't know, everything I've tasted with seaweed is ahead, but it is fascinating.

I mean, seaweed is definitely it's a it's a very popular item. Right. Now in the sort of food tech sector where anything goes, as long as it's got seaweed in it you know, from a nutritive standpoint.

Well, and I think that that's where, you know, having people like yourself with great palates and and a wonderful source of using seaweed to try these different cultivars and provide that end market and and spread that that word. I mean, I think that the customer, the guest has been changing. We all have been changing because we know more.

Right. Than we used to. 25 years ago, we know the impact that we're having and hopefully we're all changing our behaviors and to to bring things back to where it is. But how do you how do you see that change in your guests and your staff training as we sort of move to hopefully this restorative, sustainable farming situation?

Well, I think, you know, I mean, as a chef now that employees you know, we have, you know, around 100 employees both front of the house and back of the house. And, you know, you know, there is a responsibility you know, they're coming in at the current trend rate remember I think back 30 years ago when I started I was coming in to the current trend and I'm sure you remember these days where organic produce would show up at your back door and it was bruised and it didn't always look great.

It was you know, it was it was like, you know, the idea of organics not just produce. I remember specifically like organic bananas and it was like, oh, God, it's a terrible, you know, as far as a quality standpoint. And again, kind of you you assimilate that to, you know, the quality aspect of seafood farming is like everything is quality driven.

And so we're working in the opposite direction where it's very quality driven and then the logistics follow. Right? And I think that in the early organic farming, it was like the logistics were leading and the quality was, you know, is challenged. And that's changed drastically. I mean, I can't even imagine not buying organic, small farm grown produce, you know, for the restaurants or my home.

You know, we live on that. You know, it's like, hmm, you know, you start to grade the organic quality. You're like, you know, I mean, there's a difference between organic kale grown from a small farm in the valley versus you know, organic kale from big ag groups out of the Salinas Valley. A huge difference as far as your nutritive levels.

Right. Going back, I got off topic there, going back to the the seafood and what changes I see, you know, I see really what's changing is what and what needs to change is kind of how seafood, what role that plays on this on the plate, is it center of the plate or is it an ingredient that's maybe equally dispersed with vegetables oils and other legumes and such?

You know, and that's how I'm really approaching the future of seafood is versus looking at center of the plate seafood. And we do have that. We just don't have as much anymore of the center of the plate seafood, you know, at progress I run with we have, you know, six seafood items. And when I say items, you know, that's like local halibut in the form of tar.

We are using, you know, Alaskan halibut for like a grilled center of the plate fish item but then we have clams, we have, you know, mussels. We have some of these other seafood items that are really important I think that it's moving away from that, like our consumption level of seafood should be kind of you know, we need to do we need to re-appropriate how we consume our proteins.

And that's not just seafood. That's meat as well. And restaurants are kind of in an odd spot because at the same time, people come to the restaurants for, you know, that nice six ounce fillet of fish or, you know, a big, you know, kind of bone in rib eye, you know, but, you know, it's it's a challenge. I think when I look at anchovy bar, I look at anchovy bar where we don't really serve.

We don't have an entree. Right. We have lots of small seafood dishes that are, you know, paired with lots of vegetables, which I love. And, you know, we really promote this sort of net positive seafood items on our menu. And what I mean by net positive are things, you know, seafood that is doing that's adding to the oceans versus just being taken from the oceans.

And I think that that's where seaweed comes in. I think that's where oyster and shellfish farming comes in. And I think that's where like really smart sourcing of ingredients that maybe extend the season through technological advances such as freezing.

And we have 86 types of peaches and we can't deliver we don't deliver those peaches outside of Napa Valley because they're going to be bruised. Right. We deliver them to the, to the winery in our local restaurants, but they're not going to make it to San Francisco because you have to pick them and eat them that day because you pick them up.

And they're the reason they're not grown everywhere is because they bruise easily it's not a variety you can do anymore. And we we have to think about that as part of our local conversation of what we're eating and drinking. And but also how do we move things around. And I think that's a lot of what we saw in America growing a lot of food, but maybe food with less flavor, less nutrients because it was stable.

Right. And it can make it around the country. And now people are asking for I don't want it to just be stable. I want it to taste good. I want it to be good for me and good for the environment. And now how are you going to get it to me? And I think that's kind of true with with everything that we put put on our plate.

But a little sidetrack there. Sorry.

I couldn't agree more. I heard this really great term recently, you know, on a on a podcast, another podcast, a health podcast, and I love it. It's called Nutrivore. Right. And the idea is, is like, you know, is this that you're eating food for four those reasons you're eating food for nutrition, trying to maximize your nutrition. And I think that's going to be a fascinating topic in the future.

I think as people are like, you know like like organics of 30 years ago, you know, it was like how do we how do we get it how do we kind of apply the good better best idea of raising, you know, vegetables and how does that also apply to, you know, raising, you know, animals and obviously, how does that apply to seafood?

It's essentially everything that we're eating and, you know, food is fuel and food is nutrition. And, you know, you can eat you know, I go back, I use kale because that seems like the most basic. But kale is, you know, are you are you getting everything you need out of that kale? You know, you know, our soils have been so depleted of magnesium.

And that is such an important ingredient in our in our world and our that keeps us very healthy, you know, but if you're eating kale, which should be magnesium rich, but it's been depleted of its soil, again, you are what you eat eats. If the kale is grown in sub par soil, then you are, you're, you're, you're only ingesting what it's ingesting.

Right, right. And I think that that's a very interesting kind of direction and I hope that more of this is focused on, on, on food consumption in the future.

And gosh, this has just been great chef. And is there anything else I should have asked you that you want to share? You know, because I often get off topic here.

You know, I think we talked a little bit about anchovies and maybe I should put a little plug in for anchovies because I think, you know, this is a really it's an interesting topic to me. And and has been for the last 15 years. You know, I anchovies are there are small fish right. And they're very I suppose, debatable, you know right.

We grow up you know as kids and anchovy is there a pizza topping and one kid at the party at the birthday party says if you anchovies and then all the kids say you anchovies and that's kind of like that kind of like wait you eat anchovies. Oh you're gross you know it's you know it starts at a young age and and I think that that is like Ben's so, you know, that is just really not done well for the public.

The PR department of anchovies so I'm trying to you know, I'm looking at anchovies is kind of the future of food in so many ways. And, you know, the Bay Area, San Francisco, we have a very long history of anchovy farming. I'm sorry, anchovy fishing. These are not farmed fish. We have a very healthy abundant stock of anchovies.

And, you know, the reason for that is, is that, you know, we just don't eat anchovies. Right. And but they do reproduce they are local. And for about six months out of the year, from April through November, we have fresh anchovies in our backyard. Which is amazing. You know, in San Francisco, there's one fisherman, just one who who raise who fishes anchovies.

And he sells he's the bait fish guy, right? So he sells to all the fishermen who are going out and doing you know, rod and reel fishing. And these fish anchovies are bait for halibut, rock, cod, black cod, salmon, you know, Saul's, you know, petroleum soul, sand dabs. These are all like you know, this this is a very important ecosystem for San Francisco.

And years ago, I got to learn of how the anchovies were coming to us. And I focused on the logistics of anchovies because every hour that an anchovy is out of water, it's a small fish, it's going to naturally break down quicker. And so I set out on this mission to change the way anchovies were delivered to restaurants and this started years ago when I was at Rubicon, and it was just by paying attention.

And one day my anchovies arrived, albeit very late in the day, and they were perhaps maybe the best anchovies I'd ever seen. They were like in pre rigor mortis, right? They hadn't even gone through the stiffening of the fish, you know, that that we think of is such a high quality and, you know, I remember talking to my purveyor at the time.

It's like, well, what happened here? Why are my fish so much better? I mean, not just incrementally better, like night and day. And the fish that we had been receiving before were good, but sometimes the bellies would be blown out. They'd start to kind of, you know, they do have a strong aroma when they start to break down.

But these anchovies were completely different. These when I opened up the the the bag that they were packed. And, you know, you could hear the seagulls in the distance, right? You smelled the ocean spray. You know, it just was unbelievable. And so I set out to like really change that. And over the last, you know, I don't know, decade or so, that's definitely happened.

As with local consumption of anchovies and restaurants. You know, I think ten years ago we were at about 15%. We're going to the wholesale market right ah, the retail market. And now Eric is up at about 30 to 35%, which is impressive. And so I think anchovies is a lot to learn. And anchovies is don't judge a book by its cover.

Number one is, is that we have with the anchovy bar and over the years it's tapered in progress have changed people's perception on anchovies by just really focusing on how the anchovies come to us and and how we prepare them. Right. Anchovies are incredibly fresh. You want to pair with something equal or even fresher than the anchovy so I think of like a perfect heirloom tomato that you're picking from the garden, you're slicing and you throw, you know, and you serve it with fresh anchovies.

You know, something along those lines. So, you know, for me as a chef, anchovies have truly changed. How I look at the food system and what's important in our food system. I would gladly take an unbelievably fresh anchovy over any other seafood at this point in, in, in. And I hope others will really find this love with little salted fish.

Well, I'm looking forward to anchovy season starting and being at the anchovy bar in San Francisco and and seeing you there and you know, again, the anchovy story is again about supply chain, right? It's getting it there at its freshest point and 19 judging our perception which is just just great. Well chef it was fantastic to have you with us today.

Thank you so much for your insight yes it was wonderful to chat with you and thank you everyone we look forward to joining you again next month and talking a little bit more about sustainable seafood.