When you hear a voice guiding you towards or away from something, how can you tell whether it’s fear or your deepest intuition talking?
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Tuesday 25th November
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If you've ever driven anywhere unfamiliar with the kids in tow you'll
Speaker:know what it's like trying to block out the noise from the backseat or
Speaker:block out the bickering with your partner about which route to take,
Speaker:just so that you can hear the sat nav.
Speaker:Your intuition is like that sat nav, guiding you through your work,
Speaker:your career, and your relationships.
Speaker:But I know that when I hear that voice in my head, I often find it
Speaker:very hard to know whether it's my intuition, the sat nav, or whether
Speaker:it's my fear doing the talking.
Speaker:This week I'm speaking to business advisor Cathy Dimarchos.
Speaker:She helps philanthropists and other purpose-driven leaders look
Speaker:after their teams and themselves.
Speaker:There's so much to take away from this conversation, from financial literacy,
Speaker:to finding out what's really important to you, and how to say no to the work
Speaker:that drains you so that you can say yes to the stuff that lights you up.
Speaker:If you're in a high stress, high stakes, still blank medicine, and you're feeling
Speaker:stressed or overwhelmed, burning out or getting out are not your only options.
Speaker:I'm Dr. Rachel Morris, and welcome to You Are Not a Frog
Speaker:I'm Cathy Dimarchos and our actual business is called Solutions to
Speaker:You, and we predominantly work with conscious leaders, visionaries,
Speaker:people who actually wanna make a global impact in the world.
Speaker:I think at the core of everything is that we have a really clear
Speaker:focus, and that is to enable people to become self-reliant.
Speaker:We do that by actually supporting them through whether it's, um,
Speaker:strategic advice, financial literacy, discovering who they are, more
Speaker:importantly who they choose to become.
Speaker:And if I can just qualify what self-reliance means, it's genuinely
Speaker:enabling people to have financial security, the mental wellbeing and the
Speaker:physical wellbeing, and so it's never to actually play that chase game of
Speaker:looking outside to actually look at what you should be doing or who you are.
Speaker:I love that.
Speaker:And, and that's one of the reasons we got you on the podcast, Cathy.
Speaker:You're incredibly inspirational.
Speaker:But I think for a lot of the listeners to this podcast, we have a lot of
Speaker:doctors, uh, a lot of people in healthcare, a lot of professionals
Speaker:in high stress, high stakes jobs.
Speaker:This idea of being self-reliant and, and this security thing is a really
Speaker:big thorny issue because we are very, very used to looking out for other
Speaker:people all the time and it's sort of literally written into the medical
Speaker:constitution in this country anyway, you must always make the care of the
Speaker:patient you first responsibility.
Speaker:And that then means that quite a lot of the time we end up not
Speaker:caring for ourselves, not not paying attention to our own security.
Speaker:And whilst we're very self-reliant in the way of capable, we're
Speaker:very capable of, of doing stuff and we don't like to be held.
Speaker:I would say actually we do have a problem of self-reliance in that a lot
Speaker:of the time I think our physical, mental financial health isn't that great 'cause
Speaker:we're so busy caring for other people.
Speaker:I mean, is that a pattern you've seen in, in other leaders
Speaker:as well that you've worked
Speaker:Oh, absolutely.
Speaker:Gosh, the law society, you know, lawyers, the medical field,
Speaker:you are absolutely spot on.
Speaker:You know, it's, it's the, what I call the basic things.
Speaker:You may actually recognize it, but then what you choose to do around that,
Speaker:you will justify yes, but you know.
Speaker:I can be the, I'm the only one that can help them.
Speaker:Um, and especially like doctors, you know, they've come
Speaker:to me because they trust me.
Speaker:Well, yes, but you, if you keep going, you're not gonna be there, so then what?
Speaker:And who you're then actually letting down other than yourself
Speaker:is your family, you know?
Speaker:Yes, the patients won't be there either, but you are letting
Speaker:everybody that you genuinely care for down first, including yourself,
Speaker:And that's hard, isn't it?
Speaker:Because we are sort of trained to react to the person in front of us, into the
Speaker:very short term issue that we've got, rather than looking long term thinking
Speaker:actually if, if this pattern of behavior continues, yes, I'm doing good here,
Speaker:right, right in front of me, but long term I'm not, not gonna be doing good
Speaker:for the people I, I love the most.
Speaker:Do you know, first of all, I, I don't think that we actually recognize it
Speaker:because, you know, we make that decision in that sperm moment of, and, and I
Speaker:can do this 'cause it's just this.
Speaker:What we don't recognize is that it's a compounding impact.
Speaker:You know, it's almost like stepping in mud.
Speaker:Well, you can keep stepping in mud, that actual mud is just gonna keep
Speaker:being a thicker layer of mud, right?
Speaker:And so we place importance because we actually say so in, you know, in
Speaker:the medical field, well, who else is gonna do it if I don't do it?
Speaker:And so there is an element of guilt.
Speaker:There is an an element of responsibility, but we forget that
Speaker:the responsibility is actually you first, you know, gosh, we
Speaker:have it in planes, don't we?
Speaker:Put the mask on yourself first.
Speaker:Well, it's the same thing.
Speaker:Um, somebody can actually come and knocking on your door, but you've
Speaker:already actually got other commitments.
Speaker:But you're actually saying no to you to say yes to somebody else.
Speaker:And how often can you do that?
Speaker:It's not sustainable.
Speaker:it isn't sustainable.
Speaker:I, I know that lots of people just think it's very selfish.
Speaker:To pay attention to you in the moment.
Speaker:And you know, we've got this mantra, all these different mantras, put
Speaker:your oxygen mask first, or you know, put your oxygen mask on first.
Speaker:Self-care isn't selfish.
Speaker:All those things, and everyone I think can quote it to you, but I don't
Speaker:think we really believe it deep down.
Speaker:Until you actually hit a crisis, and that's when the realization hits.
Speaker:So you know, at some stage that cognition of, you know, what will
Speaker:happen should you not actually be able to continue because
Speaker:it's no longer just about you.
Speaker:What is genuinely going to happen to, you know, your children, your partner?
Speaker:Maybe you're caring for elderly parents as well.
Speaker:There are all of those things, but we don't actually prioritize
Speaker:and contextualize the reality of that until we actually are in
Speaker:that point of crisis, or you know, we are actually incapacitated.
Speaker:So for some reason, that justification of keeping that out of mind is
Speaker:actually the reason why we keep driving and pushing forward.
Speaker:You talk about self-reliance, and I find it quite difficult to get my head
Speaker:around what self-reliance is, but can I ask you, what problems does it cause
Speaker:if we don't have any self-reliance?
Speaker:What is, what does it look like when you are, when you are not got the
Speaker:self-reliance, the sort of self-reliance that you are talking about?
Speaker:So, you know, fundamentally it's security if you are, and
Speaker:this becomes the perpetual, um, journey that you are on.
Speaker:If you do not believe that you are in a position to be self-reliant, you'll
Speaker:continuously chase, whether it's chasing the money, being a healthy body
Speaker:without actually understanding that this is the status quo that you actually
Speaker:need to get to, not to what somebody else is telling you, because that's
Speaker:gonna be right for them, not for you.
Speaker:Your actual mental wellbeing, the relationship that you have with
Speaker:yourself has got to actually come from within, not actually by relying
Speaker:on what somebody else is telling you.
Speaker:I think we, we forget we are individuals and we have this innate ability
Speaker:of knowing what is actually going to work for us and what doesn't.
Speaker:So it is building all of those things for you to actually
Speaker:go, I intuitively know.
Speaker:I know whether something is right for me or not.
Speaker:I actually know the choices that I make.
Speaker:And the financial piece actually comes into play.
Speaker:If you do not have financial security, you keep actually excusing, you
Speaker:know everything that you do for that little bit of extra money, which then
Speaker:means that you're compromising your health both physically and mentally.
Speaker:That does make sense.
Speaker:And it's funny, isn't it, that we're talking to doctors and
Speaker:lawyers about financial security, but I, I think it can be.
Speaker:The problem in, in the uk, you know, doctors are genuinely
Speaker:not getting jobs at the moment.
Speaker:Um, so there is that thing about not getting jobs, but I think there's also
Speaker:the thing about we've never got enough.
Speaker:Even though we are paid really well, there's never quite enough.
Speaker:And if you've got all the kids in private school and you
Speaker:go skiing five times a year, you've gotta maintain that.
Speaker:What do you mean by financial security?
Speaker:What would that look like for you?
Speaker:So it, and it is going to be really different for everybody.
Speaker:So again, it's that nuance of, you know, when do you actually
Speaker:think it's going to be enough?
Speaker:So I look at myself and I made a decision, you know, several years
Speaker:ago, I don't need to have the ongoing wealth for generations to come.
Speaker:My family is comfortable where it is.
Speaker:So what am I actually going to continue to work for to actually
Speaker:accumulate more wealth for them??
Speaker:And so I, I can actually have food on the table.
Speaker:I have, you know, a roof over my head.
Speaker:I don't have any commitments.
Speaker:So what is it that I'm actually in pursuit of?
Speaker:So when you actually understand that, then you can actually make a decision.
Speaker:And, and it is going to be really different, you know, depending
Speaker:as to where you are in your life cycle, depending as to, you know,
Speaker:whether you do have kids in private schools or whether they're finished.
Speaker:So it is all relative, but it's actually being really clear about what does
Speaker:it ultimately look like and making a decision as opposed to that continual
Speaker:treadmill, you know, chase game, just one more, just one more, to what end?
Speaker:So.
Speaker:For me, I made that decision.
Speaker:And then it was also a commitment of, well, now my actual self-reliance
Speaker:piece is actually about enabling others in marginalized communities
Speaker:to actually have access.
Speaker:And that's access to me, access to my knowledge, access, you know, to
Speaker:all the things that they wouldn't, so I pay everything forward.
Speaker:When you're working with someone, if someone came to you and
Speaker:said, Cathy, it is just a mess.
Speaker:I'm, I'm in a really prominent position in my work, but I'm not enjoying life,
Speaker:I am constantly anxious about stuff.
Speaker:What would you do with somebody?
Speaker:it's a combination.
Speaker:Um, for me it is actually just genuinely listening to what is the stress point,
Speaker:you know, because you can actually have somebody that genuinely needs to
Speaker:work, but if work is actually going to tip them over because they're not
Speaker:in a, you know, psychosocial safe environment, then you're not gonna
Speaker:tell them to actually continue to work.
Speaker:You know, I would actually say to them, well, what is the worst
Speaker:case scenario where you stand now?
Speaker:And sometimes that might be, well, I would have to actually sell my home.
Speaker:And I, and then it is, well, what does that ultimately look like?
Speaker:Because you have to personally feel safe first.
Speaker:So it's not the finances, but it's actually about crystallizing
Speaker:the finances to then understand what does that ultimately mean.
Speaker:During Covid was actually a really good example because people were so
Speaker:fearful of losing their jobs, right?
Speaker:And I'd say to people, okay, so if I'm going to give you my scenario
Speaker:of if I never worked again, what would that ultimately mean?
Speaker:As a worst case scenario, um, I could actually sell, you know, my assets.
Speaker:Do I need to have my own home to be able to be safe in a house?
Speaker:No.
Speaker:So it's really breaking things down to make it relevant for them.
Speaker:So what else do you.
Speaker:To with people.
Speaker:What's the shift that's needed to get people to serve themselves
Speaker:first so that they can feel really safe through the world?
Speaker:I actually think that it's um, positioning themselves in, who
Speaker:are you actually here to support?
Speaker:Because most people make the decision with the assumption of
Speaker:I need to provide for my family.
Speaker:I need to, um, make sure that my parents are actually okay, whoever it is.
Speaker:So who is it that you're ultimately driving, you know,
Speaker:that charge forward for?
Speaker:When you understand that, it's then actually saying, so, um, if you weren't
Speaker:there, then what, what would happen?
Speaker:So it's getting them to understand if you drive yourself to a point
Speaker:where you no longer can actually be the provider, their carer, you know,
Speaker:whatever, what would then happen?
Speaker:Because if you keep going down the path that you are, that's ultimately
Speaker:where you're going to end up.
Speaker:So what are the alternatives?
Speaker:So it's in every situation, Rachel, it's about crystallizing what
Speaker:their potential fear is because they're thinking about an unknown.
Speaker:So let's crystallize it.
Speaker:Let's bring that to a reality.
Speaker:You know, your reality, not my reality.
Speaker:And talk that through to then actually find, well, what
Speaker:are the potential solutions?
Speaker:And everybody will have something very different, but it's bringing them
Speaker:into that state of mind and going.
Speaker:I now don't have an unknown.
Speaker:I now have something that, you know, is actually realistic, tangible,
Speaker:and I have a, a path forward.
Speaker:What tends to be the worst case scenarios for people?
Speaker:I can imagine some people it is.
Speaker:I'm losing all my money.
Speaker:I'm gonna lose my house.
Speaker:For doctors, I think it's, I get struck off, you know, I make a mistake and
Speaker:the GMC comes after me and I'm struck off, then I lose not only my job, but
Speaker:my status as a doctor and my Identity.
Speaker:which is huge, isn't it?
Speaker:I was gonna ask about identity.
Speaker:Is that, is that really what people fear the most?
Speaker:You think at the bottom of it all?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:You know, particularly in careers where they have invested so much
Speaker:of who they are to get to where they want to be, it's a journey.
Speaker:And so that journey is usually driven by when I get there, this is who I am.
Speaker:And so then what happens when they're no longer that, no
Speaker:longer identified as that?
Speaker:And this is where, you know, where I say solicitors, um, doctors, even
Speaker:actually professors, you know, that have lectured for all of their lives.
Speaker:Who are they then?
Speaker:It's that entire discovery piece that has to actually almost start,
Speaker:you know, go back to the beginning.
Speaker:I ask that question whenever I'm in a group forum, you know, who are you?
Speaker:Um, because most people do instantly go to, this is my title and this is what I
Speaker:do, but that's actually not who you are.
Speaker:And so I start the journey of who do you choose to, you know, become?
Speaker:When you take the last breath, what is it that you actually wanna be known for?
Speaker:And it's not usually for your career, there is usually something else.
Speaker:And so understanding that piece is actually a big part
Speaker:of the journey, the discovery.
Speaker:And most people, I think, you know, around the age of 45
Speaker:start to question of there's gotta be more to it than this.
Speaker:Yeah, I can, I can, I can guarantee that just coming up to 50 this year
Speaker:and yeah, i, I really like, gosh, it is hard because, you know, there are these
Speaker:bright things coming up behind you who are much cleverer, or not cleverer,
Speaker:but just, you know, got more energy for start and, you know, got more insights.
Speaker:There's all the social media, the tech, the AI stuff that, you know, my
Speaker:generation not necessarily naturals at.
Speaker:And uh, you do start Thinking, well, is this it, is this all what, what if I did
Speaker:find out I only had a year left to live?
Speaker:Is, is my contribution been enough?
Speaker:Or, you know, what will I, what will I be known for it?
Speaker:You do start to, to think these things and it, it is, it's quite unsettling.
Speaker:And I, think it's unsettling for people, particularly when they have
Speaker:reached the top of their profession.
Speaker:You know, a lot of my, my friends, my colleagues are,
Speaker:you know, medical directors and they are really, really senior.
Speaker:Still, they're struggling with everything they struggled with when
Speaker:they were 20, 25, and it appears that seniority isn't really the answer and
Speaker:make, making it in whatever profession you're in, you get to the top of
Speaker:that ladder just to find that there's another whole ladder to climb up.
Speaker:And you could just keep climbing up the ladders.
Speaker:But then that's not making us all happy.
Speaker:So then, then what does, and I think when, when you have just been working,
Speaker:working, working all your life, you've often neglected what does light you up.
Speaker:And it's quite hard to find that.
Speaker:Do you know I, um, I actually run, um, private retreats and you know, I
Speaker:have some incredible human beings that are actually part of that journey.
Speaker:But, part of the discovery is identifying who is it that you
Speaker:actually are here to become?
Speaker:Because it's not actually about a job, but almost like a, it's the legacy.
Speaker:It goes back to, you know, who do you actually wanna be known for
Speaker:when you do take that final breath?
Speaker:You know, what is it that you actually wanna say to yourself, you know,
Speaker:when you are thinking I've done it?
Speaker:You know, and it doesn't have to be, you know, anything other
Speaker:than, um, I've actually passed on.
Speaker:You know, the knowledge that I know that will be invaluable so that
Speaker:somebody doesn't have to get to 103 to actually know what I know.
Speaker:It is as simple and as, as complicated as that.
Speaker:Um, but everything that you do then you start living, eating and
Speaker:breathing that in your personal life, you know, in your charitable work.
Speaker:Um.
Speaker:If it's actually your paid work, everything shifts so that it becomes
Speaker:a total alignment, you know, so you have this incredible congruency
Speaker:that actually is driven from within.
Speaker:So if you've worked out what you want to become or what you want to be known
Speaker:for, what you want to be remembered for, how you might want to make people
Speaker:feel, as Maya Angelie says, what then stops us from becoming that?
Speaker:Is it that we have this lack of security and lack of self-reliance
Speaker:that we then, then can't focus on it?
Speaker:Well, first of all, you've gotta overcome the hurdle of what you've
Speaker:always actually done being the only identity, and so I actually say you
Speaker:reach a stage where you, the what you are actually here to do is so much
Speaker:bigger than you, that you actually know that you can't do anything but.
Speaker:And so what stops you is actually the fear of actually
Speaker:understanding the depth of that.
Speaker:Because the sacrifices that ultimately might come, could be the person
Speaker:that's actually been with you for, you know, most of your life
Speaker:that doesn't understand it 'cause they've not reached that point yet.
Speaker:And sometimes that sacrifice might actually mean that
Speaker:you're gonna go on that journey alone and that could be scary.
Speaker:I often say to people, I am the most privileged person on this planet and
Speaker:I genuinely believe that, um, because whoever actually crosses my path.
Speaker:It's actually been intentional.
Speaker:There are no coincidences, but I'm so clear about what I'm here
Speaker:to do, um, had my husband not quite understood that I would have
Speaker:to make the ultimate sacrifice.
Speaker:I've been married for 37 years, you know, um, and so I have evolved.
Speaker:He's evolved.
Speaker:But where I've evolved is actually a very different place.
Speaker:He actually understands the importance of who I actually understand.
Speaker:I am here to be, but I also would be prepared to make that
Speaker:ultimate sacrifice 'cause I actually know what I'm here to be.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I mean this, this, it is tough stuff, isn't it?
Speaker:And I think, you know, there are, there will be some people listening to this
Speaker:podcast that are, are in relationships that are, are not ideal, you know,
Speaker:chose them what, 20, 30 years ago, and, and both people have evolved.
Speaker:And while, do not just go giving up on a, a relationship just
Speaker:for the, the sake of it, there's stuff to work through, isn't it?
Speaker:And you wouldn't do that without really thinking what, what, what you both want.
Speaker:But there's no point feeling trapped and stuck and, and totally miserable
Speaker:for the rest of your life, which could be another, what, 20, 30 years if,
Speaker:if, if things are really, really not great and you're not on the same page.
Speaker:But that's a, that's for another entire podcast.
Speaker:And, uh, we probably to get relationship counselor in.
Speaker:Yeah, who do I know, who do I know I can get on the podcast?
Speaker:But, um, I think the thing I just keep coming back to Cathy is how on earth
Speaker:do we know what we're here to be?
Speaker:Because I think, you know, we hear all this stuff about resilience and purpose
Speaker:and meaning and meaningful activities and that's, that's really important.
Speaker:And I think there's probably another thing to add.
Speaker:And certainly personally, I've had a bit of a faith shifts or
Speaker:religious deconstruction, you know, in the past few years, I
Speaker:think a lot of people have as well.
Speaker:So the, the stuff that they were born with and they've already been brought
Speaker:up with is not really working for them anymore, and they're looking for
Speaker:different ways of expressing their spirituality and things like that.
Speaker:But I'm not gonna go into that now.
Speaker:So you've got that as well.
Speaker:So you've got all that baggage from, potential baggage from the past.
Speaker:You've also got the, the massive identity.
Speaker:And you know, some of these things I think, you know, people can
Speaker:use medicine, like a religion.
Speaker:They really can, you know, the doctor is, you know it, this is healing
Speaker:people and all this sort of stuff.
Speaker:And it gets so mixed up with actually who we are here to be.
Speaker:Do you think it's a choice who we're here to be?
Speaker:Or do you think it's sort of like there is this one purpose for everybody?
Speaker:Uh, I think that the moment that we actually become aware of
Speaker:something, it becomes a choice.
Speaker:Intuitively, each and every one of us know what actually
Speaker:genuinely brings us joy.
Speaker:And that is pausing long enough to actually recognize, hang on
Speaker:a minute, I really enjoy this.
Speaker:Like, this genuinely brings me joy.
Speaker:You know, it's not a fleeting moment.
Speaker:It is.
Speaker:It I can't stop smiling, you know?
Speaker:So whenever I'm actually doing something in a group forum or presenting, you
Speaker:know, on stage, you know, I often say to people, I can in any given
Speaker:moment, actually tell you where I'm going to be, you know, on the 17th
Speaker:of February, 2027, I decided that that was a particular date for me.
Speaker:And I can step into it and I, I am instantly where exactly
Speaker:I know that I'm meant to be.
Speaker:And I can smell the air and everything shifts.
Speaker:I have the biggest smile on my face.
Speaker:So we ultimately know it's whether we choose to pay attention, but we've
Speaker:gotta do the work, you know, and we have to, you know, I always say, um,
Speaker:get your roommate out of your head.
Speaker:Start to recognize is what you're actually thinking your roommate,
Speaker:which is actually, you know what?
Speaker:You've been sold as a story from your childhood, you
Speaker:know, from the environment?
Speaker:Or is it actually your voice?
Speaker:So learn to distinguish your voice from your roommate.
Speaker:'Cause your roommate is that annoying roommate that just never leaves.
Speaker:Yeah, I Like, I like that we, we've done podcasts before talking about
Speaker:that, like the toxic governess in our heads that go, you should
Speaker:do this, and stuff like that.
Speaker:Yes, I like that idea of it as a roommate.
Speaker:I think intuition is difficult, Cathy.
Speaker:I think you are a, you know, you're a very spiritual person.
Speaker:You've obviously done a lot of work and you've really connected
Speaker:with that side of yourself.
Speaker:I think in medicine we've just been trained to be very scientific
Speaker:and very factual, very logical, and I think we find it really hard
Speaker:to listen to our own intuition.
Speaker:And also, I don't know sometimes what the difference is between
Speaker:my own intuition and my amygdala, inner chimp, you know, that, ah,
Speaker:fear, fear, fear, acting outta fear.
Speaker:How do you tell, what is the roommate who's just responding outta
Speaker:fear and threat and, and what is your deep inner wisdom intuition?
Speaker:So when you actually have an instant feeling, that is intuition.
Speaker:When you have to actually think about it, that's actually your
Speaker:brain justifying whether you are actually, you know, right or wrong.
Speaker:And that's actually based, based on historical experiences or,
Speaker:or that story that's being told.
Speaker:And then you can justify it.
Speaker:So instant is intuition.
Speaker:You get that gut feeling, you know, it's that knowing it's instant.
Speaker:There's no second guessing
Speaker:Yeah, I, I get that.
Speaker:However, what I understand about the amygdala reaction is that often you
Speaker:also get instant fear reactions or instant stress reactions that I'm
Speaker:gonna upset them or, or whatever.
Speaker:So what, what's the difference between those two?
Speaker:Intuitively, you actually know it internally.
Speaker:Um, when you're actually thinking about fear, instantly, I can tell
Speaker:you that that is actually an external source because you are thinking about
Speaker:something that hasn't even occurred.
Speaker:So intuition is I have a gut feeling.
Speaker:And it's not about fear And the, the, more you pay
Speaker:attention, the clearer it drops.
Speaker:Yeah, that's interesting.
Speaker:So, so if you, if you, you get this instant reaction to something, if it's
Speaker:a fear or a, a threat to do with the people pleasing and stuff like that,
Speaker:what you are doing is you're reacting to something that hasn't actually happened.
Speaker:You're reacting to something in the future that could or could not happen,
Speaker:and you're feeling frightened of it.
Speaker:But it is an instant reaction.
Speaker:And sometimes we misstate that for intuition.
Speaker:But if there's a deep internal, this doesn't feel quite right, but
Speaker:you don't really know why, that is much more likely to be intuition
Speaker:because you probably actually can't say why it's right or wrong.
Speaker:Exactly.
Speaker:It's this knowing, you know, I feel it.
Speaker:I just, I can't justify it.
Speaker:I don't understand it.
Speaker:I dunno why I'm actually feeling like this.
Speaker:So if you can't justify it and it's not based on something that may or
Speaker:may not happen or whatever, then then that's like a bit intuition.
Speaker:It's interesting, I was listening to a podcast with Alain de Botton on
Speaker:it, the philosopher, he was talking a lot about this, this intuition and
Speaker:about how people ignore it because it's not scientific or whatever, but
Speaker:actually it, it's very scientific when you think about your unconscious
Speaker:brain picking up things all the time.
Speaker:It's picking up cues.
Speaker:It's, it's, uh, storing memories of what happened and things like that.
Speaker:So actually just 'cause you can't immediately bring to mind
Speaker:exactly why you're thinking that.
Speaker:It doesn't mean that it's not absolutely valid.
Speaker:And he also said, and I love this, that that thing that wakes you
Speaker:up at 3:00 AM that is often your unconscious brain going, excuse me,
Speaker:excuse me, excuse me, because it's not being able to get through all
Speaker:the, the chatter from the roommate.
Speaker:And I've really thought about that.
Speaker:I used to really hate waking up at 3:00 AM worrying about stuff.
Speaker:And I think definitely you can wake up at 3:00 AM and
Speaker:overthink stuff, can't you?
Speaker:But if you, but almost paying attention that, what was that
Speaker:thing below it that worried you?
Speaker:Because I did have that a few years ago.
Speaker:I sort of just woke up really worried about a member of the team,
Speaker:and I couldn't get outta my head.
Speaker:And actually it turned out it, it was 'cause they were totally
Speaker:in, in the wrong role and, and we had to resolve that.
Speaker:But it, it took waking up in the middle of the night going, oh my God,
Speaker:there's something really wrong here.
Speaker:So, you know, once you actually start paying attention, and that is
Speaker:the key, so I'm glad you said that, but once you start paying attention,
Speaker:it is so innate that you could be anywhere in the world and you will
Speaker:wake up in the middle of the night and go, oh my gosh, I need to ring.
Speaker:You know, the number of times that that has actually happened, and people
Speaker:go, I don't even know why you're ringing, but this has just happened.
Speaker:I remember sending a, a baby in, who had just been discharged from hospital.
Speaker:The, the mum, a newborn baby.
Speaker:The mum brought the moon to me that, that afternoon.
Speaker:They're discharged in the morning going it, I just not sure.
Speaker:And, you know, may have just been the, the, the training kicking and going,
Speaker:you know, if the mum's not sure really, but I was just like, oh, there was just
Speaker:something sent it back and I got a, a, a phone call from the pediatrician the
Speaker:next morning saying they discharged them to, they shouldn't have discharged
Speaker:them, and the baby, you know, would've been dead if it had stayed at home.
Speaker:Uh, just, you know, and I have no idea what prompted me to do that.
Speaker:And we've, we've all got, we've all got stories like that where you just
Speaker:didn't, and you just listen to yourself.
Speaker:We always teach that when you are triggered, when you are feeling fear or
Speaker:you're telling yourself stories, what you, you find yourself in the corner.
Speaker:You should take a pause, and just wait, and then make sure
Speaker:you are like back in your normal parasympathetic zone before you act.
Speaker:So for me, you know, again, um, I always actually look at, first
Speaker:of all, am I actually trying to justify something, you know, or is
Speaker:this actually one of those nudges where I can't actually explain it?
Speaker:Pausing is something that I do all the time, and the pause actually allows me
Speaker:almost to actually come back to ground.
Speaker:You know, it's like I'm not then being influenced.
Speaker:It's actually looking inward and going, do I have a
Speaker:subconscious bias around this?
Speaker:You know, what is it that the actual message is that I'm
Speaker:trying to actually understand?
Speaker:And how do you actually do that grounding, Cathy?
Speaker:I want, I want details.
Speaker:I want like practical.
Speaker:What do you do?
Speaker:Do you sit in a chair?
Speaker:Do you go for a walk?
Speaker:Do you journal?
Speaker:So if I'm on stage and something actually happens I will literally
Speaker:just, it is basically just put my feet down grounded, like actually see
Speaker:my feet, touch the, the ground, you know, flat footed, um, and literally
Speaker:say, I, I, I actually needed to just ground myself because I've gone
Speaker:out there or I've gone wherever.
Speaker:So it is, it's being present.
Speaker:I think Eckhart Tolle, you know, actually talks about being present.
Speaker:That presence is actually about grounding yourself and not
Speaker:actually drifting into whatever your mind actually tries to
Speaker:get you to pay attention to.
Speaker:For those of us that aren't so used to listening to our intuition and
Speaker:what we really want and who we really want to be, where would you start?
Speaker:'Cause I, I guess it's like anything, like practice makes perfect.
Speaker:You know, the more you, the more you practice it, the more you try and do
Speaker:it, the more, the easier it will get.
Speaker:Where did you start with it all?
Speaker:Um, paying attention.
Speaker:You know, what were the things that kept repeating on me to teach me the
Speaker:lesson, 'Cause let, let's be real.
Speaker:You will have actually come into a situation and you think
Speaker:that was really silly, like.
Speaker:I already knew that.
Speaker:So how come I did that again?
Speaker:And genuinely that is because you've not paid attention to your
Speaker:intuition that tried to stop you.
Speaker:But we justify it, and as much as I practice, I always say, Rachel,
Speaker:life is about practicing to live.
Speaker:It doesn't stop.
Speaker:There is no destination.
Speaker:So you're not gonna tell me that, yeah, you are this master at it now
Speaker:and it's dead easy and it's never going
Speaker:No chance.
Speaker:keep going, practicing.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:But practicing's gonna be fun, right?
Speaker:Hasn't it?
Speaker:And I guess I'm, I'm thinking a lot about this at the moment,
Speaker:that, you know, with all these sort of self-help techniques, these
Speaker:self-improvement techniques, we think that there's gonna be, yeah,
Speaker:this time where we're absolutely self-fulfilled and everything's great.
Speaker:Actually, we don't want that to happen because that would be really boring.
Speaker:And you've gotta enjoy the journey.
Speaker:You've gotta enjoy what you're doing as you're going along so that when
Speaker:you get your destination, it's like it actually doesn't matter whether
Speaker:you get to your destination or not, because the journey has been great.
Speaker:And I think what a lot of us are doing is we've got it
Speaker:completely the wrong way round.
Speaker:We're self-sacrificing now to get to some destination in the
Speaker:future, which doesn't help.
Speaker:So we're miserable.
Speaker:And then we're also paying attention to these negative emotions now rather
Speaker:than investing in the future as well.
Speaker:So we've got this weird, um, weirdly the wrong way round.
Speaker:Whereas I think if we can start to overcome these negative emotions now
Speaker:that stop us having those conversations from making those difficult decisions,
Speaker:that will help us in the future.
Speaker:But also let's stop thinking, putting all our eggs in the future
Speaker:basket and start really living Now.
Speaker:and doing what's gonna bring us joy now, right?
Speaker:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker:You know, people say to me, there's, there's always this perception about,
Speaker:you know, you're always so busy.
Speaker:And I keep thinking, oh my gosh, I actually don't believe in busy.
Speaker:So that's actually your perspective.
Speaker:So what is busy, right?
Speaker:And busy almost actually is like, um, a badge of honor.
Speaker:Let me just keep going.
Speaker:But I honestly, I never feel like I'm busy.
Speaker:Um, I love what I do.
Speaker:I'm conscious about what I do.
Speaker:I'm very intentional about what I do, and so I don't genuinely,
Speaker:you know, partake in something for the sake of doing it.
Speaker:And so I have that incredible joy every single day, 'cause I love what I do.
Speaker:I'm just having a bit of a eureka moment, Cathy, because when we say
Speaker:we're busy, that means we're filling up our time, but you fill up your time.
Speaker:You know, even if you're not doing anything, you're sitting reading a
Speaker:book or you might just be sitting, staring, staring into the distance,
Speaker:but you don't say, I've been busy all day staring into the distance.
Speaker:So when we say we've been busy, what we're meaning is we've not had any
Speaker:time to do regenerative stuff or stuff we love, gen, generally, I think.
Speaker:So we probably wouldn't say we were really busy if we had spent the
Speaker:day doing things that we really wanted to and that we really loved.
Speaker:And you know what the art of that is saying no.
Speaker:Oh, don't get started saying, no, it sounds so easy, doesn't it, Cathy?
Speaker:But it's really, it's really not.
Speaker:You know, we do with jobs and some bits of our jobs we really, really love.
Speaker:But I always say, well, there's always gonna be those, those bits of jobs you
Speaker:really don't love, like particular types of examinations that I really hated
Speaker:doing, or admin and stuff like that.
Speaker:But as long as you know, you're loving, you know, 80% of the
Speaker:rest of it, that's great.
Speaker:I think there's a lot of people listening to this that only love 20% of
Speaker:their jobs, and that's just not, it's not, that's not a joyful life, is it?
Speaker:Far from it.
Speaker:But part of it is saying no.
Speaker:And people will say, well, there's, there's stuff you just can't say
Speaker:no to, it's part of your job.
Speaker:But then there's stuff that people really fear saying no to.
Speaker:I mean, how, how have, how do you say no, how have you managed it.
Speaker:How would you advise people to do it?
Speaker:Do you know?
Speaker:Um, I say no to all the things that I genuinely don't like doing.
Speaker:Why?
Speaker:Because it can be outsourced.
Speaker:It's much better for me to actually do the stuff that I love.
Speaker:For two things, the efficacy and the efficiency is actually
Speaker:going to be at a heightened state because I actually love what I do.
Speaker:Then they go, well it's gonna cost you.
Speaker:And I think, well, it actually costs me more for me to do something I don't like
Speaker:to do, 'cause I'm going to avoid it.
Speaker:I'm probably gonna make a mistake and it's gonna take me longer.
Speaker:So actually it's not cost effective, so let me give it to the person
Speaker:that actually enjoys doing it.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Although I, I'm get you a lot of, yes, buts.
Speaker:I guess when you're in, when you run your own business And you get your
Speaker:own organization, it's easier to, to make the decision to outsource stuff.
Speaker:I think, I know lots of people and I've, I've got all these objections myself,
Speaker:but also can answer the objections.
Speaker:But in, in the medical world, you know, they're absolute strap of funding.
Speaker:There's lots of people are sick, there's lots of vacancies.
Speaker:So a lot of the time we talk about delegation all the time.
Speaker:People say, but there just is nobody to delegate to or to outsource to.
Speaker:What would you say to somebody who, who genuinely doesn't have
Speaker:So structure, structure your day, you know, people say to
Speaker:me, so how do you actually decide what type of work you do?
Speaker:Um, well, first of all, I'm really clear around that.
Speaker:So this is where my strategic analytical, self comes into play.
Speaker:The things that I don't actually like to do, first of all, I'm going to do them
Speaker:first thing in the morning because you can go into the whole human cycle, but
Speaker:you're actually more productive, you know, at certain stages in the morning.
Speaker:So do the things that you don't like doing first thing in the
Speaker:morning, and you actually do them a lot more productively, and
Speaker:actually choose how much time that you're going to allocate to it.
Speaker:So don't dwell on it.
Speaker:I always talk about having multiple verticals, you know,
Speaker:in what you actually do.
Speaker:So understanding how much time you want to actually spend, you know,
Speaker:in your business, in your life, in each of the different areas, you
Speaker:know, of your life, of your business.
Speaker:So I am very, very strategic like that.
Speaker:I also, I'm very good at saying no, um, I say no more than I
Speaker:say yes, and it's a 20/80 rule.
Speaker:So I will say no 80% of the time, and here is what I have actually discovered.
Speaker:By actually saying, no, I actually do more of what I love.
Speaker:Well, we're very, we're very lucky to have you on the podcast then.
Speaker:'cause you obviously said Yes.
Speaker:to this, so Rah, I feel very honored.
Speaker:Um, Yeah.
Speaker:Oh, that's, I want to dive into all of those different things.
Speaker:Where to start, where to start?
Speaker:I love this idea of structure because yes, so you, this idea of
Speaker:you delegate, you outsource, if there genuinely isn't somewhere, someone
Speaker:to outsource, you know, you've gotta do it, well actually make it so that
Speaker:you can do it quickly and easily.
Speaker:Like you said, first thing, when you are, when you are at your best,
Speaker:um, and more productive, so you might only then have to spend 15
Speaker:minutes doing it versus half an hour.
Speaker:And if the bulk of your work is doing something that you don't
Speaker:like, then what on earth are you doing in that, in that role?
Speaker:I mean, basically that was one of the reasons why, you know, I am a
Speaker:former GP, is I didn't actually so enjoy the surgery bit the, the, um,
Speaker:the, the, the seeing patients bit.
Speaker:And, and when we do our career coaching, when we do our career courses, our
Speaker:career retreat days, we have doctors that absolutely love the seeing,
Speaker:the seeing patients, bit of bit of stuff, so I know I've made the right
Speaker:decision to come out because I just didn't actually enjoy the, the bits.
Speaker:I really enjoyed my medical education job and I as, as you can imagine, 'cause
Speaker:I enjoy podcasting and speaking and training and all that sort of stuff.
Speaker:So you actually got to enjoy the bones of your work, right?
Speaker:And if you're not enjoying that, then please find something else to do.
Speaker:And you can do it.
Speaker:It will take a bit of thinking, it'll take a bit of coaching, but do that.
Speaker:But then it's structuring things.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:And you've got things like batching.
Speaker:So do all those tasks at once and you know, schedule when you're gonna do
Speaker:them and get as much help as you can.
Speaker:And I think the reality is that even if there is nobody to delegate or outsource
Speaker:to, actually we are very bad at it.
Speaker:And there might well be people that could do stuff for you.
Speaker:And I think this multiple verticals.
Speaker:That's interesting.
Speaker:So you're talking about like how you design your life,
Speaker:both in and outside work?
Speaker:So, I alluded to a date early on.
Speaker:Um, now I actually do quite a lot of philanthropic work and
Speaker:it's work that, you know, I do, um, particularly in Africa, but.
Speaker:I dedicate, you know, how much time I'm actually going to allocate to
Speaker:philanthropic work overseas to my actual pro bono work that I do, you know,
Speaker:locally to within what industry, just as I actually do to the type of client.
Speaker:You know, so whether I'm actually doing, um, you know, large corporate
Speaker:cultural change, whether I'm actually working on scaling, you know, a small
Speaker:business into a medium business, whether I'm actually looking at, um,
Speaker:cultural change, it, each of those actually have a specific time that
Speaker:I will allocate and I will only do a certain number of at any given time.
Speaker:Um, and you know, once that's actually full, that's full, you
Speaker:know, I, I will not take that on.
Speaker:That's why I actually said, you know, I'm very good at saying no.
Speaker:Because I wanna actually enjoy having the variety of what I,
Speaker:you know, or what I'm good at, and what I actually enjoy doing.
Speaker:And not be bored, you know, not have the same thing.
Speaker:I love that.
Speaker:And actually, in one of our very, very first, podcasts, Dr. Liz O’Riordan,
Speaker:who's, um, a breast surgeon, um, who's had breast cancer herself.
Speaker:She was talking about what she advises her registrars, um,
Speaker:particularly when it comes to, so audit projects and stuff like that.
Speaker:So obviously when you're a doctor in training, you, you
Speaker:need a little bit of research.
Speaker:You obviously want stuff for your CV.
Speaker:But she says to them, you have one project on the go at once
Speaker:and when someone else asks you to do something, you say Yes, I can
Speaker:do that when I finish this one.
Speaker:You know, you don't just add it and add it and add it.
Speaker:Or you say, well, I can do that one, but I have to stop doing this one.
Speaker:Is that, what, is that what you want?
Speaker:If it's your boss or whatever.
Speaker:So you have this bucket of allocation.
Speaker:And it strikes me that makes it much easier say to say no to.
Speaker:'cause you've already got your parameters.
Speaker:You're not thinking well, do I want to or do I not want to be?
Speaker:You're like, well actually I'm, I'm at capacity right now.
Speaker:So you're not saying no to them.
Speaker:Say, what's that?
Speaker:Sounds like an amazing thing.
Speaker:I'd love to be involved.
Speaker:Is when I will have the time to do it.
Speaker:Can you wait that long, or whatever?
Speaker:So you've already made rules for yourself.
Speaker:You're not having to decide.
Speaker:'Cause if you have to decide, then you're weighing things
Speaker:up like, oh, well if I was a good person, I'd do it or not.
Speaker:But you're just like, no, my, my time bucket's full right there.
Speaker:And it actually then also circumvents that, um, perception of, you
Speaker:know, that scarcity mindset.
Speaker:You know, if I say, if I say no, oh my gosh, am I actually
Speaker:going to get more work?
Speaker:Well, I, I know exactly what I want to do, and if that bucket
Speaker:is full, that bucket is full.
Speaker:I'm not gonna say yes to something else or more of that just to actually fill
Speaker:the gap of, you know, what's not full.
Speaker:And I guess then it makes you be really picky as well because you're like,
Speaker:well yeah, if I say yes to that, even in six months time, that I'm gonna
Speaker:miss out on loads of other stuff that, that's probably gonna come in instead.
Speaker:Exactly.
Speaker:I think that's, when I think about our listeners and medics and healthcare
Speaker:professionals, there are always extra projects that they've got on, the
Speaker:extra things they're being asked to do.
Speaker:I was talking to a, a friend the other day, they're being asked to take on a
Speaker:particular role in a particular college.
Speaker:And, you know, they weren't sure, it seemed like a really good opportunity,
Speaker:but did they want to do it or not?
Speaker:And, um, it was because it had been there and they'd been asked.
Speaker:It's flattering to be asked.
Speaker:It's nice to be asked.
Speaker:It's nice to be involved with stuff.
Speaker:But, um, these opportunities come in all the time, don't they?
Speaker:And.
Speaker:we, we often just jump at it 'cause because we've been asked and
Speaker:then we feel guilty by saying no.
Speaker:But actually if you say no, they'll ask somebody else, and that, that
Speaker:other person will probably be just as, just as good, probably better at
Speaker:it if you are not really loving it.
Speaker:I mean we have in one of the communities we run Permission
Speaker:to Thrive this saying, which is originally from Derek Sives, who I
Speaker:absolutely love his work, but yeah, it's either a hell yeah or it's a no.
Speaker:Yes, exactly.
Speaker:How do you know if it's a Hell yeah.
Speaker:Are we back to the old intuition?
Speaker:Uh, yes.
Speaker:Somebody actually asked me, how do you decide whether you're
Speaker:going to go ahead with something?
Speaker:And the first thing is, um, I intuitively know.
Speaker:And it's a very, very quick yes.
Speaker:Um, just as much as it is a no.
Speaker:And then I actually look at the analysis of it, then I, then
Speaker:the strategy actually kicks in.
Speaker:so intuition first, not based on fear, but based on the sort of deep
Speaker:inner knowing that you probably can't explain, then you think about the
Speaker:strategy of how you're gonna do it.
Speaker:And, uh, I'm very purpose driven.
Speaker:So, you know, if it's actually about a business, if that business
Speaker:doesn't actually incorporate, you know, some sort of social
Speaker:impact, it's a straight out, no.
Speaker:And how much are you driven by finance?
Speaker:Because like we all need to make ends meet, and I guess that's a, that is
Speaker:something that is a difficult, you know, if you're in a a GP practice,
Speaker:you've, you've gotta pay your staff, you've gotta keep the lights on, and
Speaker:there are lots of things you, you'd love to do that do have impact, but they
Speaker:cost money, you might not have that.
Speaker:So you have to pay attention to finance.
Speaker:So how does that work when the two actually might contradict each other?
Speaker:So I always say money is actually energy.
Speaker:So you need to actually know what your money needs to be delivering for you.
Speaker:You know?
Speaker:So, and when you understand that, then you actually do
Speaker:the work the other way around.
Speaker:You know, so for me, here's my driver.
Speaker:The more money I make means the more projects that I can actually run.
Speaker:But it won't actually be to the compromise of, I would, I
Speaker:will not take on a job if that actual, it's a transaction.
Speaker:Full stop.
Speaker:So there are certain parameters that I actually look at, you know,
Speaker:first of all around what is this actually going to generate, and is
Speaker:it actually totally in alignment?
Speaker:Because, you know, everything is energy for me.
Speaker:So if I'm gonna be doing work that's not going to align because it is, you know,
Speaker:just lining somebody else's pockets, I've done enough of that in my life.
Speaker:I'm not interested, so I'm certainly not gonna line my own pockets
Speaker:I would say we've all done stuff because it paid well and then we
Speaker:totally regretted doing it, and it's been a absolute joy suffer.
Speaker:And the money does not make up for the pain of having to do something
Speaker:that you don't enjoy, you don't love, or is not in alignment with you.
Speaker:Totally.
Speaker:I've, I've got much more joy from doing free stuff that's
Speaker:been in total alignment than paid stuff, which which really hasn't.
Speaker:So when you actually make the driver the thing that you
Speaker:love, the money actually comes.
Speaker:That includes pro bono stuff.
Speaker:And as odd as that may sound, that is the reality.
Speaker:Do you believe that the money always does flow when you are in alignment?
Speaker:Or do people get into issues?
Speaker:So I, I think the biggest fear is someone does what they feel really
Speaker:aligned with, and then just the money doesn't come in and then
Speaker:they're completely destitutes.
Speaker:I will actually say that what happens in that situation, doubt comes in
Speaker:and the second that doubt comes in, everything actually shifts.
Speaker:So you would actually understand, right?
Speaker:Neuroscience has actually shown us that what we actually think is
Speaker:what actually becomes our reality.
Speaker:So the second we actually shift our line of thinking to, oh my
Speaker:gosh, I don't think I've done the right thing and now I'm gonna be in
Speaker:crisis, well, that's actually what happens, you then are in crisis.
Speaker:You can't actually have, you know, one moment of belief and then you
Speaker:actually go into doubt because the doubt will actually overrule.
Speaker:And so that's what actually happens with money as well.
Speaker:So you can get to these very fear-based mindsets.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:And then you end up chasing the wrong thing and, and so on and so forth.
Speaker:Yeah, We do a whole, whole other thing about money mindset.
Speaker:yeah.
Speaker:Out of everything we've talked about, what would be your sort of
Speaker:the, the three main things that you'd want people really to go away
Speaker:with a, an, an understanding of?
Speaker:know what?
Speaker:Pause.
Speaker:Pause in the moment to genuinely understand who is it that you
Speaker:actually choose to become.
Speaker:Playing the chase game isn't going to give you what you want.
Speaker:Believe, you know, believe in what it is that's actually surfacing for
Speaker:you because the second you actually trust that, um, the faster your
Speaker:reality actually comes to fruition.
Speaker:What do you do once you've believed in it?
Speaker:I know that's like the million dollar question, but I could
Speaker:believe in anything, I guess.
Speaker:If I was actually standing right next to you, um, you know, I would
Speaker:actually be able to say to you, okay, well if you believe that you
Speaker:are a frog, I can tell you that you could tell me that you believe that
Speaker:you're a frog, but your body will actually tell me that it's not.
Speaker:And that'll actually be a muscle test.
Speaker:And we all know that, right?
Speaker:So you can see the reality of what you say you believe is actually the reality.
Speaker:You cannot actually tell yourself a lie and say that, that's my reality.
Speaker:'cause it's not so subconsciously, you know that.
Speaker:Yes, and we all know that you are not a frog.
Speaker:I had get that one in.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:But there is, there is about, there is something about believing
Speaker:in possibilities that aren't there yet though, as well.
Speaker:I, I, I guess even if you can't actually see that reality.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:That's hope, I think, isn't it?
Speaker:That's what, that's what hope is.
Speaker:It's hope to the point of crystallization and where you actually
Speaker:know what that reality looks like.
Speaker:Wonderful.
Speaker:Oh, we could keep talking for ages, Cathy, but I think we're probably
Speaker:gonna have to leave it there, um, and get you back on the podcast
Speaker:another time if that's okay.
Speaker:Cathy, if people wanna find out more about you and about
Speaker:your work, where could they go?
Speaker:Um, my website, so solutions2you.com.au, and the two is the number two.
Speaker:Um, that's probably the easiest.
Speaker:Lovely to speak to you and we'll speak soon.
Speaker:Thank you.
Speaker:See you.
Speaker:Bye.
Speaker:Thanks for listening.
Speaker:Don't forget, you can get extra bonus episodes and audio courses along with
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