We’re building Ellipsus as a platform that prioritizes transparency, trust, independence, and creative freedom. Writers shouldn’t have to trade their privacy or their ownership for good tools. The rise of AI scraping and big tech overreach only made that more urgent for us. —Rex at Ellipsus

Whatever your attitude toward emerging technologies, we can probably agree it’s tough to be online these days. The tools available seem to be multiplying for some and dwindling for others—particularly those who don’t want to use generative AI. A growing distrust of big tech is leading people to search for less exploitative options than Google or Microsoft. 

Fortunately for them (and also me), new developers are creating tools that don’t push AI without the opportunity to opt-in. One of those new tools is Ellipsus, a writing tool created by a small group of writers who wanted better collaborative document options, and who are solidly for transparency, privacy, and writers' rights to their own work.

What Makes Ellipsus Different

As a text editor, Ellipsus is a lot like Google Docs, but more focused on better performance for large docs. It’s got a git-style feature for better version control, richer permissions, flexibility, and creative customizations. It’s got a unique knack for supporting real-time collaboration, and is simple enough to start using right away. 

How Ellipsus Addresses Concerns about AI, Privacy, and Access

Ellipsus has been very clear on their stance: no generative AI in the program, ever. They believe writers’ work shouldn’t be harvested to train models without consent. Generative AI, when built on creative labor, undermines originality, and they believe putting it inside a writing tool would be fundamentally counterproductive to fostering genuine voices. Ellipsus's creators want it to be a safe space for writers, and are working on offering better encryption and privacy protections, too.

Things that Make Ellipsus Fun

Ellipsus has a vibrant Discord community of writers providing mutual support, betas, collaborators, and the opportunity to commune. Collaboration options in the documents themselves are pretty fun too—I love being able to create different drafts for different beta readers so no one has to feel put on the spot.

And another small but mighty feature is the variety of different skins you can apply to your program (my current favorite is Red Velvet 😊🎂).

Check out links of interest, including Ellipsus's full statement on generative AI in the notes below.

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Music by Amy Hakanson

Logo design by Leigh Kaisen

Welcome to the hybrid pub Scout Podcast. I'm Emily

Einolander, and I explore author resources and services to help

authors get the information they need to be successful and safe

as they pursue publishing.

Thank you so much for tuning back in after such a long time.

Or if you're new, welcome. I hope you find something here

that helps you forge your writing and publishing path. The

question, What program do you use to write prompts, different

answers, but two of the most common are Microsoft Word and

Google Docs, but both of those programs have added AI

integrations within the last couple years that are nearly

impossible to opt out of, if you're concerned about privacy

for your projects, your rights to your own work, or if you're

just annoyed by unsolicited suggestions that would make even

Clippy cringe you'll be interested in today's interview.

Ellipsis is a tool created by writers who wanted better

systems to collaborate. It allows writers to have more

control over who sees and who can interact with different

versions of their drafts, avoiding the Panopticon effect.

You know, the one where you're in Google Docs making

suggestions then see an anonymous badger in there

watching you when AI started to seem like an unavoidable force.

Ellipsis found its audience within the population of writers

who said, yeah, no, screw you very much. I first heard about

ellipsis last summer when NaNoWriMo, or at least the

nonprofit built around it, blew up in spectacular fashion,

the match that set the explosive a post about how arguments

against AI were classist and ableist,

and for those of you screaming at me right now, yes, I know

NaNoWriMo, aka National Novel Writing Month, was a grassroots

movement before the nonprofit existed, and I know just because

the nonprofit doesn't exist anymore. It doesn't mean people

will stop doing it. In the next couple weeks, I'll post a deeper

dive follow up on the death of the NaNoWriMo nonprofit and what

authors are doing to keep the movement going this coming

November. Anyway, that was the point at which I and many others

learned about ellipsis. It's an alternative to Google Docs

created to help writers collaborate with other writers

and beta readers without anxieties about privacy or that

they'll lose access to their own documents, as has happened in

some cases with Google. Rex from ellipsis was nice enough to take

the time to talk about ellipsis origins, its aims and

principles, the community that has grown up around it, and what

makes it unique, we cover a brief history of ellipsis. What

ellipsis does for writers that other platforms don't ellipsis

stance on AI who might benefit most from using ellipsis, and

how ellipsis community helps with development. Rex, welcome

to hybrid pub scout. Thanks for agreeing to talk to me. Thanks

for having me. Yeah, I've really been enjoying working in

ellipsis. It's fun to experiment with all of the stuff that

you've got going on in there, and it's nice to have a new

option for places to do my writing. But we'll get into that

a little bit more

later. First of all, tell me what ellipsis is and how long

it's been around. So we started ellipsis about three years ago,

which is kind of insane when you think about all we've been

doing. It's gotten very kind of exciting in the last year and a

half, though, when we kind of left the closed beta. So

ellipsis was basically a way of my partner and I kind of

realizing that collaborative writing is very difficult to do,

especially when there was really only one tool to do it in, which

was Google Docs. And so we decided there could be a better

way. What would our dream, you know, collaborative, friendly

writing tool look like? And so we kind of went through the

motions of going through every different feature that we wanted

to see in our perfect writing tool. Obviously, perfect is the

enemy of good. So of course, we had to come out with this and,

you know, promote it earlier than perfection would allow.

But, but, yeah, we basically have a writing tool that allows

for collaboration, that is online friendly, it has more

permissioning, has kind of, I think, a better comment

structure, just a lot of ways to hopefully improve on the Mega

Corp, Google Docs, Google Docs experience. Yeah, so I think, I

honestly think that it's good to get it out before it's perfect,

because then you're never going to get, I mean, that's what they

say about startups. It's a minimum viable product, all

those things. Yeah.

Um.

Um, so you talked about the need that you needed to fulfill with

better collaboration tools. Can you sort of elaborate on what

you tried before you got to that point? So I mean our processes.

I mean we all know that writing happens kind of alone before it

happens collaboratively, right? So, you know, we, both of us. I

mean myself. I'll speak for myself, I was mostly a word

user, you know, since back in the day, I've always used word.

I use Scrivener for a while as well, in college and after

college, writing fiction and Google Docs, you know, as well

to kind of get beta readers, to get editors into place and work

with people that way. So yeah, just a lot of different tools.

Also things like chat, you know, I would text people and kind of

get the real time experience of, you know, editing and so forth,

so many, many tools for many different reasons. And ellipsis

was sort of a way of attempting to get all of those things in

one place, nailed down, connective, etc.

I do like that you have the ability to do separate drafts

and invite different people to them. I know that one of my beta

readers would get into a doc, and if they saw someone else in

there, they'd get nervous, so just have a little privacy.

Yeah, exactly. We always kind of called it the Panopticon effect

and that, yeah, that when you bring in someone to collaborate

with you, you want to be able to say, I'm setting this

permission, I'm letting you into this document now, have the

ability to say this is this collaboration is finished now,

and I want to go back to kind of my one on one. So the idea of

the draft system was probably our first big feature that we

really wanted to solve for. Now, this was a pretty difficult

technical problem, though, basically it's git style

collaboration, but for text hadn't been done. So we spent,

like, the first year, like, trying to really find our way

into this problem. And what we have right now is the draft

system where you can basically say, I have a main document I am

creating now as many drafts as I want to iterate on this main

document, invite people to them. They can comment on those

drafts. I can edit those drafts, and then I merge them back into

my main to really get the flow, I think, a little more correct

in terms of how creative writers work, especially when they're

collaborating, yeah, and have an easier time bringing everything

together, rather than forgetting something in one document, which

I've definitely done before.

Yeah. So one of the biggest things that sets you apart is

your stance on AI, I know that when all of everything happened

with NaNoWriMo back in November, that was when I first became

aware of you, and I think probably when a lot of people

became aware of you. Can you elaborate a little bit more on

what made you take such a strong stance? Yeah, I mean, so when we

started the, you know, building the tool. It wasn't really a big

thing yet, right? We had, you know, you had, kind of the

nascent coming of of chat GBT, kind of in its, I think it was

its second edition, right? Its second rollout at that time,

three years ago. And, you know, at the time we were looking at

it and saying, Oh, of course, it's, it's, it's ridiculous.

It's, it's, it can't write fiction, etc. And then we

realized around that time being in fandom circles as well, you

know, as you know, we saw a lot of fandom writers realizing

that, well, well, how does chat GBT know about fan work? You

know, how does it know about kind of the deep, dark cuts of

fan writing? And then, of course, we realized very quickly

that it was scraping data across the internet, and then, of

course, it became a little more legible over time with its chat

GPT three. And yeah, it's so basically we've grown up at the

same time. I think that AI for writing has become like a thing,

yeah, so it wasn't really necessarily us taking a stance

as much as it was us as writers in our bones, knowing that AI

should not and could not replace human work. So across the board,

we realized very early on that it was something that we didn't

want to include in the tool, especially as we saw other

tools, including it and other writing tools that were also all

about AI kind of coming onto the market at the time, kind of

seizing that that moment, right?

So it's always basically been a non negotiable thing for us,

just as creatives, as writers and as people in circles of

creative circles and communities where we all kind of feel the

same.

But the National Novel Writing Month issue was, you know, that

was our first kind of foray into a sponsorship, because we really

did, you know, we've been participants in nano for

basically two decades. At this point, both of us, myself on my

co founder, you know, and seeing that, like on our first

sponsorship day,

they didn't even warn you. No, they did not. It was kind of, it

came out of full left field as we actually, we had created a

lot of content for the sponsorship. We were very

excited to go forth with it. We loved nano as an institution for

a very long time, and then kind of seeing that coming out of the

blue and realizing that was something we didn't want to

stand for. We had to, we had to leave, yeah, and you had to make

it clear why you were doing it. Yeah, exactly, yeah. And it

looks like a lot of people were on your side. I know it's kind

of.

A, I've I've, from what I've observed, there's like, factions

of people who, like, are okay with certain use of AI at

certain points. And it's, it's a, it's scary to have to stand

up for either one, because you know, you're going to piss

someone off either way. Yeah, I mean, I feel like we've been

pretty lucky in that the stance that we've taken is just that we

believe that generative AI cannot replace human work. It

shouldn't be in Creative Writing Tools, and it also shouldn't be

part of a, you know, creative writing endeavor that you know

you write to improve. You don't cannot improve and become a

great writer. You know, in terms of, how about that, if you allow

a robot to do it for you? Yeah, pretty much it. I love that. Why

would I bother to read anything that someone wasn't bothered to

write? That's great. Yeah. I also, like, I was watching a

different

video where someone was, like, talking to their chat GPT, or

they'd named it, and they were having that issue where, you

know, the one, where they think it's a real person. They were

like, they were like, tell me a secret that you haven't told

anyone before. And the bot said I was trained on a bunch of fan

fiction. I mean, boom, it's actually rage that was seething

within me when I heard that. I mean, I know. But also, oh,

you're just gonna admit it like that in front of all these

people. Like, you know, what's interesting about that, too, is,

if you kind of go into the weeds, this was the first kind

of real understanding of how AI was trained. Like, this was not

common knowledge until, basically, a bunch of fan

writers were like, what's going on with this thing? It became,

you know, pretty big at the time. I believe we wrote some

blog posts on it, but it was mostly like the New York Times

talked about, times talked about it. But obviously, because fan

work is, you know, a gift economy, and it is not paid

work, it is online and accessible for anyone to read,

which I think is still its strongest point. You know,

that's the most incredible thing about fan work. But of course,

because of that, scraping is something that, of course, would

occur.

So other than that, which is, you know, very strong and maybe,

let's kind of go back into the features a little bit. What?

What differentiates you from other platforms, other than,

like the anti IA, wow, anti

anti AI, and also your collaboration features, like,

what's different about you. We're also very privacy

oriented. We We also seen, you know, kind of rumblings from the

Google space, you know, the Google doc space, of people that

are, you know, not very comfortable with, basically a

company that has the ability to look at the work at any point in

time and face issues. We're very adamant about not doing that. We

were structured and, you know, as a company based in Germany as

well as we are bunch of expatriates living out here, you

know, we were very data, data privacy oriented. So that's

something on the back end, I think is important for us as

well. But in terms of features, yeah, we, we have the desire as

well to not just be great for collaboration, or, you know,

writing on your own, you know, in your own space, but to make

that space feel as creatively stimulating, but also simple as

possible. And in terms of, you know, the tools that we've all

used, I think, not to name names for all the tools we've used,

but, you know, there's a lot of complexity baked into these

tools, and some of them are not really what we need at a given

moment, especially for creative writers. So we wanted to make

sure that the the UI felt very simple, easy to use, very

elegant, very clean, but a lot of opportunities for

customization. So we have a lot of great kind of visual themes

that I think are mostly just our way of having a good time,

things for us to play with, because we love, we love, we

love kind of themes, but also for creative writers to feel

more inspired when they're working. Yeah, you got to pepper

a little bit of fun into all of the less fun work, the boring

stuff. Yeah, I still, I This is embarrassing, but I am also kind

of old, so I just use the default skin. I see you posting

in the discord about all these cool new skins. And I'm like, I

should try writing with one of those, and then I try it. And

I'm like, I'm frightened. I mean, I was, I was worried for a

long time. I always wanted that kind of word experience of that

because I'm the worst ellipsis user. I am that user that has to

be convinced. And I feel like that's a good position to be in,

though, to basically running this company. No, that's great,

yeah. But, you know, I personally, I came around to the

themes in a big way. And it's really enjoyable to, kind of to

feel very comfy in the space. And, you know, the feedback that

we have as well. I mean, that's another thing that we do, is for

any new feature, you know, it comes from the audience. It

comes from the users. It comes from writers that really want to

see something in the tool. And you know, that's what's great

about kind of working with the community, and having the

community that we have, we're really excited to iterate on

basically everything possible that we can, you know, and so

all of those interesting features that we develop, that

are in development as well, and that we have developed are kind

of things that people have suggested or talked about, and

we always talk with them on kind of the best ways to make that

work for, you know, creative writers, again.

Like to case in point. We have pretty interesting permissioning

system, right, where we have a can merge permission, which

basically allows you to be a co owner of a document with

somebody. But we also have an editor permissions right, which

allows somebody to make changes on a draft level. And then we

have, obviously, a view only role, but we also have a role

coming out pretty soon for commenting only, which allows

you to do the comments, but not kind of yet. So there's a lot of

things I would love that that sounds great. Things are

consistently rolling out, and we always take a lot of inspiration

from the community and what they think would be worth, worthwhile

for them. Yeah, and you just got that big influx of users

recently because of some horror stories with Google Docs that

came out. I

yeah, I saw that on Tumblr, for that post on Tumblr where the

person was just like, Where'd all my stuff go? Or, why can't I

get back into my Docs? And, yeah, like, can you talk a

little bit about what changed after that sort of scare came to

light? Oh, you know, I think that what we're seeing is a

combination of a lot of things that people are dissatisfied

with, kind of the big techification, right? Of tools,

especially in creative spaces, right? I mean, we hear the word

bandied about a lot of and shitification. I think it's

very, very clear that that's happened to a lot of tools. And

it's not just the privacy fear, which I think is, you know,

connected to a lot of the, you know, moving political things

happening right now in many countries, privacy laws, etc.

That's that's happening right now.

But, you know, it's also the idea of AI kind of being

inserted into every tool using the data to train, you know, AI

specifically for Google. I mean, that's Gemini, right? Anything

goes into its email system, right? Like is going to be used

to train, etc. So it seems like it's more of a shift, not from

one specific event as something, where people are realizing that

maybe it's better to have something that is more aligned

with my values, more something I feel more comfortable writing

in, etc. I hope that we can, can be that for people. I think that

I would never say, you know, we're, you know, we're perfect

for everybody, but we want to be as good as we can be for

creative writers. But yeah, that led to a very large shift. A lot

of people joined the tool in the span of basically two weeks. We

doubled our user base. We now, I think about over a million

documents have been created in ellipses so far, which is really

crazy to think about we had a lot of structuring on the back

end. We wanted to make everything as stable as

possible, and we were able to do that, which is really great. So

having a good time. Community is growing. It's kind of

incredible. Yeah, and you have that, that discord community, so

everyone can come in, get the updates, find out what you're

working on, make suggestions, yep. Yeah. Totally. We have a

really active discord that I think it's now, God, think it's

grown several 1000 in the past, like two weeks alone as well. So

that's really exciting. Obviously, it's a lot to manage.

You have two mods? Did you say, Yeah, we have two mods right

now, but we're going to be growing, I think, soon, to have

kind of more of a community guide system as well. Because,

you know, our mods are incredible, but they're not

octopus with eight legs, but they're amazing. And, yeah, we

have a really incredible dynamic community of people. I think

that we've we always wanted to make sure that, you know, the

community was kind of at the forefront. I think that

community strength for creatives right now is probably the most

important thing we have online, especially in the political

ecosystem that's developing. You know, everywhere I think we

should be as as connected as possible. And yeah, it's, it's

been amazing to see it grow. Yeah, yeah, there's something

about having, like, a whole bunch of people who, you know,

some of them are going to be awake at any given time and able

to talk with you about your writing and your struggles with

writing as that tends to happen. Yeah, we've seen a lot of, like,

amazing connections being made as well. For people that want to

find collaborators, that want to find a beta reader, it's

somewhere, I think the one problem with, you know, the

creative internet, which I think is, you know, we've been through

all these different permutations of all these different

permutations of all these different platforms and all

these different tools, but it's difficult to find a place where

you feel comfortable and you can have that connection and make

those connections, and have somebody that you can actually

work with on that level well. And this podcast is geared

toward authors primarily. And so have you noticed

adoption with the author community, and is there anything

that they ask for that isn't that you're working on, that

isn't necessarily there yet? Yeah. I mean, we, we do have a

fair amount of self published authors, and also traditionally

published authors that work in ellipses, which is great, also a

fair amount of journalists, which is really cool to see as

well. Yeah, we don't, we don't go deep into it. I mean,

obviously we everyone is anonymous until proven

otherwise, until they make the case, you know, like we're very

okay with that. That's how we work. But, yeah, we've seen

people kind of talking about us on socials now, which is really

cool, but definitely some fast updates that will be coming in

the next few months. Are definitely some features that I

think that.

You would like to keep in mind, if you are a self published

author, a traditional published author, chapters is being our,

one of our biggest issues to develop for the two years. Plus.

What that means is it's kind of a different way of structuring

what a document is. When we have things like drafts, obviously

it's it's kind of a big, a big, big a question to solve, but

we're working on that for the next few months. That should be

out. And also offline mode is also going to be coming in the

next few months as well. So, yeah, those are two things I

think that we really wanted to get in pretty quickly. And now,

obviously we get the fire under our feet, you know? Yeah, yeah.

I'll be really excited to see see chapters coming in that'll

you're like, easier navigation between chapters within one

document. Is that kind of the idea? Yeah, okay, cool. Yeah,

yeah, totally. So what you'll see, you know, you see on the

sidebar where the drafts are, you'll see also chapters, and

each chapter can have its own draft, etc. So we'll have more

of a different structure, but still, kind of, I think, the

same in terms of navigation. What people do now is a fair

amount of people do use drafts as basically a chapters, kind

of, you know, alternative. So people will will say, Well, I'm

making a draft, but it basically becomes the chapter, and people

can still be invited to in the same way they would with with

any other document

that's smart.

Sorry, I was thinking about using it. I just went away for a

second,

great, because right now I've got, like, multiple chapters and

multiple folders, but, you know, I'm not complaining, trust me,

anything else we're bringing out. I mean, this, this also

when you mentioned folders, I mean, that was a big game

changer when we decided to implement folders, but we're

going to have the ability to share full folders with

collaborators is something we didn't have, but we will have in

the future as well, to be interesting when it comes time

to really kind of go into the granular nature of a project,

right? You can share that full folder out

right now, we're working on things like just organizing

folders in terms of, you know, what is your role? Have you been

invited to this document as, you know, a commenter, or as a full,

you know, merge privilege, you know, Owner, basically. And

you'll be able to see that kind of on the dashboard as well. So

it's a lot of kind of small fixes and big fixes that we're

doing. We're going to be improving share, you know, the

sharing aspect as well. Because I know that, or we all know

that, a lot of work kind of is shared from it, from ellipsis

document at this point, and to kind of make that experience a

little experience a little bit easier in terms of, can you

comment on those documents when shared? So that's something

we're looking at as well. Great.

I can really see how this would be a good platform for

journalists. I didn't, I don't know why that didn't occur to me

immediately with the security and the fact that you're not

looking at all their stuff all the time. Yeah. I mean, that's,

we have a lot of personal friends that are journalists as

well. And I think that we, we've sort of started thinking about

it as, like an anti use case initially, because, you know,

there's a lot of things that go into that. But in the, in the

kind of future that we're thinking about, the farther

future, I will not put a date on these things, right? But, yeah,

we're looking at things like, you know, is encryption a

possibility for ellipsis as well? That's something we think

about a lot. Yeah. So a lot of things like that in the in the

future. How do you figure out how to prioritize what to do

next? Man, it's more like, how many people want to see this

feature in the tool you know? We have, we have an ideas board

that people can always upvote things down, you know, and make

new comments and suggest new features. We always knew that

chapters and offline, you know, only is something that people

have wanted for very long time. So of course, that takes a lot

of precedent, so we always will make sure to prioritize those

features. But we're also developing, you know, here's

another one, developing the full mobile app at some point that

will and what we have now is basically called a progressive

web app where you can use ellipses on your phone very

easily. It feels like a mobile app, but it is not, you know,

offline friendly. And we will be developing all these things

together. You can obviously write offline, but you can't

really navigate between folders and so on if you're offline on

the phone. So there's a lot of things that we want to include.

It is very chicken and egg, right? To know that to have

chapters in that will rely that will basically dictate a lot of

the things that we're going to be able to do in the future that

we could not do previously. So yeah, it's, it's still, it's

still audience choice, right? Yeah. And

also things, themes always new. Themes always want to bring out

fun stuff like that. Yeah, you got to keep some joy in it. I

can sort of see, like, this might be a weird comparison, but

I, during the day, I write a lot of, like, nonfiction related

stuff, and there's always this difficulty in like, what

concepts to introduce first, and like, if I get to a certain

chapter and I haven't, like, set it up with a particular concept,

it feels like it's not going to work, or it's funky or doesn't

quite work. But that's sounds kind of similar when you're

trying to develop this product. Yeah, I mean this, it does feel

like, listen, it feels like an offshoot of writing.

And like before I was, you know, working on ellipsis full time,

I, you know, had the novel that I was working on which is still

kind of, you know, in a drawer, right? But which is fine, but,

yeah, it's feels like the same kind of process in a lot of

ways, where you're worried about, kind of setting all those

parameters and getting all those plot points in place, and what

comes first, and you know, who's going to take that role, right?

But, yeah, it is weirdly similar, you know, as a writer

of fiction, and also I was an academic as well, so it's kind

of like that structure working on this tool. Yeah, totally

Yeah. Probably puts you in a good place to work on it then.

So what's been like? The most surprising thing about

developing ellipsis,

honestly,

seeing the love that we get from the users, which is, I'm kind of

surprised by it. I assume there would be a lot more naysayers in

the world, you know, like, I would assume that, oh, where's

my Gemini? Like, that's right.

I mean, it's incredible to see how much love we've gotten in

the last especially in the last year since we kind of left the

closed beta and across the board, just that feeling of

community, like I feel like the people that use ellipsis and us

were not different, you know? And it's the way that we've

always felt, but it comes across really easily. We're very

accessible for everybody that uses the tool and vice versa,

right? And it is incredible to see like, how people have both

entrusted us with their work, but also just how the community

has kind of grown up together with with the company, yeah, and

the love is flowing. It's really exciting. We're having a great

time, all of us, I think, in tandem with the users, and it's

a lot of delight. That's what's surprising, that it's that it

feels so delightful.

What a lovely surprise. Exactly,

well before we go, or is there anything that you would like to

bring to people's attention,

I guess just, you know, try it out. You know, it's, it's, it

feels daunting, I think, to to start the process of importing

your work, which, you know, we do make that pretty easy, but

it's still, you know, it's still a process. When I see people

saying that they're importing, like, years worth of documents

into the tool, it's, it's shocking, but it's also exciting

to see you know how much effort people will go to to work on

something new, and I think that there's a lot of joy once you

get into it, at just feeling comfortable in your space and

feeling inspired by the tool. And I think I do, I think a lot

of people do every day. So yeah, I definitely recommend just

trying it out. If you're used to working at Google and you don't

feel like it feels comfortable for you anymore. Just check it

out. Is it, is it a manual switch over that people are

doing right now, or is it we have an importer, basically,

it's from markdown, so you'll have to basically get your work

into markdown format, but then it's very quick import from

markdown. Great. All right. Well, hopefully this will

inspire some people to try it out, and I'll put whatever links

are necessary for people to check you out in the show notes,

Rex, thank you so much for coming on the show today. I

appreciate it big thanks to Rex, and also a personal thank you

for me for encouraging me to try writing in something other than

dark mode. I'm currently using the red velvet skin, which is

dark enough to stay easy on the eyes, no matter how much it

makes me hungry for cupcakes. In addition to the podcast platform

you're listening to, you can find both me and hybrid pub

scout on LinkedIn. I'm no longer on Twitter or either meta

platform, but you can also email me at emily@hybridpubscout.com

thanks for listening, and I'll see you next time you.