Ben shares his story of growing up in a small town in New Zealand, where Christianity initially felt like safety and belonging; until his queerness made that same faith feel threatening and conditional. He opens up about the pressure of staying closeted, the impact of religious trauma, and the fear of rejection that shaped his sense of self. Ben also speaks about a turning point during his time in prison, where unexpected spiritual experiences helped him reconnect with a version of faith that affirmed rather than condemned him. Throughout the episode, we explore how community, friendship, and supportive relationships can become lifelines in recovery, especially when rebuilding identity after incarceration and learning to live more openly and authentically.

Who Is Ben?

NZ born Australian who lives in Naarm/Melbourne. Ex gymnast, ex church leader, ex raver and an ex convict. He is currently in his coaching era, both in the gym and in the workplace. Co-host of the Queerfully Made podcast.

Connect

1. Connect with Ben over on IG - https://www.instagram.com/bennynicholson/

1. You can find out more about Sam on her website - www.anchoredcounsellingservices.com.au
2. To connect with Sam on Instagram - @anchoredcounsellingservices
3. Want to contact with Sam about the podcast or therapy? Use this contact form.
4. Also check out The Religious Trauma Collective

I would like to begin by acknowledging the traditional custodians of the land on which I live and work, the Gundagara land and people. I pay my respects to their elders, past, present and emerging, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people.

I also want to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands on which you, our listeners, are joining us from today.

I recognize the deep connection that first nations people have to this land, their enduring culture, and their commitment to the preservation and care for their country. This land was never ceded and it always was and always will be Aboriginal land. Welcome to beyond the Surface.

This is a space for conversations that sit at the edges of faith, identity, power and recovery, especially for those of us who have been shaped so stretched or harmed by fundamental religion or high control systems. Some episodes are personal, some are reflective, some are educational or curious or quietly disruptive.

All of them are grounded in lived experience and a deep respect for the complexity of leaving, questioning and rebuilding meaning.

We will be talking about religious trauma, various forms of abuse, cult dynamics, queerness and recovery, not in answers, but in honest conversations. In listening to these conversations, some parts might be heavy or activating for you.

Please take care of yourself while listening and feel free to pause or step away if you need to. I'm Sam and I'm really glad that you're here with us.

Welcome, Ben.

Thanks for joining me.

Great to be here, Sam.

I am excited about this episode because I feel like it's been a bit of a long time coming. Aaron told me to get you on the podcast long before you even start.

Like you guys were gearing up for Queerfully Made and he was like, you need to Ben on the podcast. And I was like, I will. And it's like six months later and we're finally here, so I feel like it's been a long time coming.

It's been a long time coming. I so appreciate Aaron just like dropping me in there.

Aaron's just pimping you out to podcasts.

In that case, yeah. Should start charging back my fee.

Oh, absolutely.

Yeah.

Anything. So before we get into your story, I feel like we've just alluded to something. Give queerfully made a plug. It's great. I was on it. It's wonderful.

Plug the out of it for a minute.

You were on it. Carefully made our podcast that we launched in January. Us. No, sorry, July of this year. So Aaron, Kelly and I are co hosting that podcast.

So the intersection of faith and sexuality and the conversation that surrounds it. So we've just wrapped up season one.

Yes.

Which was really all about establishing the conversation and, and establishing or articulating that intersection. What is that? You know, what can you be a Christian and be gay at the same time? What are the challenges that come with that?

What are the challenges for queer people inside church? What are the challenges. Challenges for people that have left so kind of exploring about like all about what that is and what that looks like.

Yeah.

So then season two next year will be all about the. So what? So, so what do we do with that? What can we.

How can we help people that are in that situation that Aaron and I were both in when we were closeted gay boys in church, not knowing how to get out? And then how do we help the communities that those people are in?

Church community, queer community, and, and all of the other supporting communities around that. So, yes, we were, we're very excited, very, very happy with season one and all the guests we had on there, including you.

That was a super fun episode.

It was good fun. Yeah.

That was the most laugh out loud moments I think Aaron and I have had. Us. That was just. That was crazy. And we're talking about trauma.

Yeah. The irony. Hey.

Yeah, I, I mean, I think we had sort of like alluded quite quickly that like, anything can happen and people, especially with like Aaron and me in the same episode, anything can happen. And so I remember thinking, oh my God, thank God Ben's here to ground this space. Otherwise it was just gonna be absolute like adhd, pure chaos.

But it was good fun. So I feel like we've given spoilers away a little bit, but in terms of your story.

But I like to start these episodes with like a super vague question, which is where does your story start?

Where in terms of place it starts in New Zealand.

Oh, yes.

Aotearoa. We like to say Aotearoa, New Zealand, in a. On a small country town.

Which is pretty much what New Zealand is, just a whole bunch of small country towns. Yeah. But, yeah, that's where, that's where it started on the farm with mom and dad and my brother and sister. Yeah.

Very easy, cruisy, you know, kind of childhood. Yeah. Something about growing up in a small town that's really beautiful and wholesome. Um, and you're sheltered from a lot. In a way.

Yes.

Um, but I always had this, I think, going through my teenage years and, and, and the more that I grew up, the more that I wanted to see what else was out there. So I was really, really keen from a young age to explore the world and, and and see what was beyond, you know, the fences that I'd grown up in.

Yeah. And from memory, because I listened obviously to your episode where you shared your quote unquote testimony, which.

But you did not grow up in a Christian family, did you?

No, I think. Well, kind of like my grandparents were missionaries, so they came out from Scotland when my dad was 2.

And so my grandparents on my dad's side were in church and I think mom and dad were in church to a point. Right. Probably right up until I was born, so. But no, we didn't really go to church. I remember mum taking me when I was a kid once.

Once.

And then we would have gone whenever we visited my grandparents, but. But other than that. No, they weren't church goers as such. We didn't say grace at home, none of that sort of stuff.

Yeah.

But I did go to a Christian holiday camp when I was a kid. When I was nine years old.

Yeah.

Or as a bit of a family tradition. So again, dad's side, like all of them as boys and, and as went to camp. My auntie and uncle met at this camp. Oh, there's.

Yeah, there's a real kind of family history there. And so you go as kids and then you can stay on as helpers and then you can become leaders after that. So that's where I was probably.

That's where I was properly introduced to Christianity and what being a Christian is, who God is, what, what this is all about.

Yeah.

And again in a really kind of wholesome, beautiful way. So, yeah, that was, that was my intro.

And did you say you were nine.

Or in year nine?

I was nine years old when I first went.

So what did nine year old Ben think about Christianity?

Well, I think it was probably. I don't remember. I remember more about freaking out at camp and being away from home. Like, I mean, was probably like.

That's probably more of the memories there. I would say it was probably because I kept going like year after year right up until I was 14, and then became like the helper.

So would keep going and then became a leader as well. So I did probably a good six or seven years there and it was around, I'd say probably 11 or 12.

I remember thinking there, this is, this is really beautiful. And there's something that feels really heartwarming about this.

Yeah.

And it didn't feel like, you know, some of the songs that we would sing at night at camp would be with one guy with a guitar.

Yeah.

You know, like it wasn't a production, it wasn't a production. There was no stage, there was no lights. There's no smoke machines. There's no. There's none of that.

And some of the Bible stories were taught in this really beautiful way with this artist. He would come with these big massive canvases on stage of just big white long paper, and he would just. He would paint as he would tell stories.

Like, it was just this beautiful creative expression of the way that he would. As a storyteller, the way that he would tell stories of the Bible.

So it was a really beautiful, again, wholesome way to be introduced to Christianity. And then I didn't. I went to church for the first time, like on my own when I was 14.

Okay. So I often will joke that I gave my life to Jesus at the ripe old age of 12. And developmentally, like, not developmentally, like formed at 12.

But what was it like you said at 12? That was when you sort of like around 11 and 12 was when you started to realize, actually, this is really beautiful. What were you connecting to?

Yeah, that's such a good question. I think, you know, I was connecting to. I definitely felt it. Like I've always been someone that needs to. To feel. I kind of feel my way through life.

Yeah.

And often at times I've needed to think more.

Yeah.

But. But I think I definitely felt something at the time.

I think whatever the process was, I don't think it was like, you know, raise your hand or maybe it was, but I remember sit someone and like with a leader and we were praying together and I kind of repeated what they were saying. So it kind of took you through that salvation prayer.

Yeah.

Definitely felt something inside of me, like in my heart that was kind of. That was kind of like this kind of this warm glow, you know. And so then the language I put around it at the time was inviting Jesus into my heart.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And at what point I'm trying. I'm sort of like joining timelines here a little bit. At what point did you realize you were gay?

Oh, gosh, probably. Probably earlier than that. I'd say probably around 10 or 11. Yeah, 10 or 11.

I knew that I liked guys and I think, but hadn't really acted on too much of it at that stage. But yeah.

And being in a small town, did you have the language of that anyway? And. Yeah.

No. And because this was like, this is in the 90s. Yeah.

Giving away like my age now in the 90s in small town New Zealand, like, that was probably like a demonized word.

Yeah.

Do you know what I Mean, like if you were gay, you were, you were outcast.

Yeah.

And you were, you know, associated with all of those words that were very derogatory at the time. So, yeah, gay queer would have been just as bad.

And then like all the name calling stuff like, you know, fag and homo and all of those sorts of things. So it was. Or. Yeah, I think they were words that I definitely didn't use because I didn't ever want to be labeled as that.

Even though I felt like an outsider that whole time.

Yeah. What was that like to feel like.

An outsider in a small town?

I know. I think it was hard. It was really hard. I think I did gymnastics as a kid, so wasn't really.

I got to the stage where I was doing competition gymnastics, which meant I wasn't allowed to play rugby, which is every.

We're feeling fulfilling all the stereotypes here too, by the way, like gymnastics kid.

Yeah, yeah. Gymnastics is my gateway, if you like musical theater. But yeah, so I think loved gymnastics and dance and, and all of that sort of stuff.

All of that side of things. So not the, not the masculine sports or, you know, masculine. I played hockey for a little bit. I did play rugby when I was a young kid.

But it just got to the point with gymnastics where my coach said, you can't risk injury by playing another sport. So we're competing like probably once a month or something like that.

So just the risk of me being injured and then not being able to compete in gymnastics was too high and I was just getting out to that level where I needed to take it a lot more seriously. I was kind of training three or four times a week. Like it was probably, you know, doing proper professional gymnastics.

So that already had me with, you know, I had my friends at gymnastics, but, you know, that, that was it. Outside of, you know, a friend circle. I had some friends in primary school, but they were mostly girls.

And then even at high school, you know, that became really difficult as well. It was, it was mostly girls again. It was, it was, it was definitely tough.

So I think it was tough at school because that's where I was most of the time. And if I wasn't there, I was at home, which was fine. If I wasn't at home, I was at church.

Yes.

And that was the safe place. Right. That was my chosen family, if you like, outside of my standard biological family.

Yeah.

So, yeah, that was, it was, it was tough. But I found safety and comfort and relationship and community in other areas.

Yeah.

Was church the safe space because of what it gave you in terms of, like, what it gave you spiritually or was it safe for you in terms of what it gave you with, like a ready made community?

It was. It was a ready made community. It was. And because. So dad left home when I was 15.

Okay.

So the family unit kind of fractured then. And then I would. I really lent into church then.

Yeah.

Because then, you know, they were. They took me in, they held me close, they looked after me. I was. I was safe there. So I was there a lot.

Yeah.

Friday nights, twice on Sunday. Like, it was just. Because that was a safe space. And it wasn't that, you know, we were coping pretty well at home.

And it kind of, you know, my brother and sister and.

And I, you know, really got through that whole time together and with Mum, of course, and we had lots of support and beautiful friends and family around us. So very lucky. And at the time, it was weird because not blended family wasn't a thing back then.

Yeah.

You know, we were a minority. There was like two or three of us at school that had parents that were divorced. You know, it wasn't a common thing. So.

So yeah, church was a beautiful, safe place and I really. I really lent into that. Yeah. I found a place to land.

I realized, I forgot to ask you what flavor of church and what flavor of Christianity we are in at the.

Moment at a Christian outreach center. So, yeah, coc, our pastor at the time, I think he was head of CoC for. For new Zealand at the time. Right, I know. So.

And we might have split a couple of years after I joined to become an independent church, but very much Pentecostal, Evangelical. You know, I think Shout to the Lord was. Was being one of my first Sundays there.

Yeah.

So, yeah, very much following the. The Hillsong, the Pentecostal. But, yeah, that was. That was my flavor.

Right.

If Aaron was here, he'd be singing Shout to the Lord. I'm glad he's not. It's very triggering song. Oh, my goodness.

If you've seen a podcast, you will know that he is shameless about singing and does it at the Drop of a Hat episode with. Sorry, our last guest episode with Andrew Sloan, I think he's like, three times. I'm like, Aaron, I. I was listening.

To the episode and I'm texting him going, really like, oh, my goodness.

Just told you that it's triggering. And then he like, breaks into song. The next opportunity gets. I'm like, mate, automatic. You need to stop.

Yeah, I need like a button that I can press to be like, you know, yeah, You've gone too far.

Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Oh, goodness. Okay, so 15 in church. Church is a safe space during this time. Like, how is it. How is that safety?

Because obviously, being a little bit older, I imagine your understanding of your own sexuality is growing, even if, like, the language is not necessarily there to the same level. How are those two things intersecting? And how was queerness framed in this space? In this church space?

Yeah, so definitely framed as something that can be. That is prayed for.

Yeah.

So you go up the front and get prayer at the end on a Sunday night, you know, because you are struggling with your sexuality. So, you know, that was. That was definitely how it was framed at the church. So still very much loved and accepted.

You know, love the person, hate the sin.

Oh, yes.

Was the. Was the language, but there wasn't any kind of that. That was pretty much it. Like, that was the only answer. Do you know what I mean? Like, it wasn't.

And I hadn't really shared too much at that time, so I was really close with my youth. Youth pastor at that church. We became really, really good mates, actually. So he.

Right after dad left, he, you know, found out that it happened and met with me one on one and take me out for coffees. And he was just. He was that big brother during that whole time. It was really, really beautiful. So. And I confided in him.

So he knew about the struggle at that time and very much tried to, I guess, equip me with the. All the resources that I need.

You know, it was all about, if I can remember, it was more about, like, the more you lean into God, the more that, you know that this is gonna. This is gonna go away.

Yeah. It's almost like the image of, like, dirty water and clean water.

The more you pour of clean water, I. E. God, the less dirty water, I. E. Gayness there'll be in the glass.

Yeah.

Obviously not how it goes, clearly, but I'm curious, like, throughout all of this time, like, who was God to you?

Who was God to me?

Yeah. And how did you relate to them?

I think for me, again, it was like. It was a felt experience. It's still a very much a spiritual experience. I connected with God, like, in a heart and spirit level.

Yeah.

So I think, you know, through. And I had. I feel like I had a relationship with God, you know, and the language at the time, of course, very masculine.

It's all about, you know, father, son, holy spirit. It's very, very, very masculine.

So I think, you know, that was, I guess, helping me in A way, in terms of the masculine that was missing from my life. But I think, yeah, I was. I was very much like, again, feeling my way through that, but it was a felt experience, you know, and.

And teachings really helped. I'm such a visual person. So I loved, like, videos, and I would go and hire resources from the Christian Resource Store. I guess it was.

Yeah. Whatever it was called.

Whatever it was called, I used to love. I used to get this one on repeat because you couldn't download anything back then. So get these resources. This video I used to watch by.

By Jesse Duplantis, which was. He was the guy that had that vision of going to heaven. He. That he believes he went to heaven.

Others will tell you that he had a vision of going to heaven. And. But when he.

The way that he described heaven in so much detail and meeting Jesus and being walked down by the river and meeting King David and, like, it was just. I. I loved hearing those sorts of stories because it helped me shape in my mind what this was all about. This is what heaven looks like. I've taught.

I'm listening to someone that's been there.

Yeah.

Or says that he's been there. So it was very much. It was. Yeah. Building this. This idea in my mind.

And I guess with all of that, as you grow up in the church, there's, you know, you are, you know, encouraged to. To get amongst it. Of course, you're encouraged into leadership, into service, very much into all the things.

All the things serving and building community and, you know, reaching the lost and all of that stuff. So I did conferences, you know, all of the. All of the camps, like, you know, all of that stuff.

And then, you know, you get prayed for, and it would be like, you know, I see there's leadership on your life and there's Bible college for you, and there's like, you know, all the prophecies to be like, this is what. This is the plan that God has for your life.

You know, so I'm very much believing all of that stuff at the time, too, being like, okay, well, yeah, great. This is. There's a future in this for me. And then when I was 18, 18, 19, made the decision that Bible college was the next step for me.

So as every good Christian teenager does school.

Right.

I mean, like, you're hearing all of this language about God having a plan for your life. Like, did you think that part of God's plan for your life was for you to not be gay?

Like, yeah.

Yeah, okay.

Yeah, very much so, yeah. God's Plan for my life was to be married to a woman and have children. Like that was the, you know, that was absolutely the plan.

And, and although that seemed really difficult to believe at the time, there was a hope attached to it that it will happen one day. Right. Yeah.

And so if I just stop sitting and if I just keep, you know, following God's way and staying in the light and you know, all of that stuff, then, then that's going to happen for me. Yeah, yeah. So deep denial about sexuality. But I think during that time there was all of the acting out that was happening as well.

Okay, what do we mean by acting out?

So all of the. Or like exploring, I guess, sexuality in the dark corners of. Of the closet.

Yeah.

And yeah, so that, you know, wherever I could do that in secret without being found out, without anyone knowing. Until the old school, of course, where I'd come forward for prayer and you know, confess and you know, to all. All of that. Yeah.

So that was a bit of a cycle. It was kind of go out and sin if you like, or explore that part that my sexuality and, and act out sexually and then come back to church and.

And try and, you know, repent and ask for forgiveness. Repent, be cleansed, blood of Jesus, all of that. So that was the cycle. Acting out in really secret places. So I think for a lot of.

Of closeted gay guys, that is, I think places like beats.

Yeah.

Like which I guess secret places in the community that are quite public places but you know, where guys meet and hook up and sexual experiences and then run away in shame. Yeah, so. So yeah, so there was that wherever I could, wherever I could find that. And then, you know, I guess porn to a degree.

But yeah, I was also not really having experiences with people that I knew, if that makes sense. Yeah, so it was more very. There's a lot of anonymity. Like it was just. I didn't know the people that I was hooking up with.

I mean, I imagine that allows you to stay somewhat invisible and like, like you said, anonymous.

Yeah.

You are there but you are not attached to it after that moment essentially.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean you talked about like, you know, I guess what we would call like the dissonance of like being in the closet, acting out, going to church, that sort of cycle that's happening. What did it feel like emotionally and psychologically to be in that very shame, guilt filled closet.

Like alone in your bedroom at night, no one's around. Like what was it like for you to live at that point?

Yeah, I think you know, in the dark moments, it was really dark. It was really hard. It was really sad. So kind of crying out to God, take this away from me. You know, what, why me?

Why can't I be like, you know, everybody else? So lots of, lots of those types of prayers.

And in the good times it felt really hopeful and really I was really grateful for the experience that I was having.

Yeah.

And the grateful to be in a place where people did love me and did accept me. And so, yeah, so there was kind of both of those things happening at the same time.

But I think in the darkest times, like, it was, it was really, it was really hard. Like, felt. Definitely felt the rejection, felt the hurt and the weight of all of that. Of kind of, you know, of keeping it a secret and. Yeah.

Not being able to. Not being able to. To express myself in the way that I want to express myself. So I very much became the chameleon and just conformed.

I'm like, I can't wear that. I've got to wear this. I've got it. Because that's what we're all wearing. That's what makes me look more straight.

That's, you know, that will, that will, that will guide people towards this version of me. And then, you know, there'll be no doubt.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, and I like, I obviously talk a lot with other queer people in these episodes about like what it is like to suppress your sexuality or your gender. And by and large the biggest thing is like, it's like it literally feels.

And I think this is tricky for people who have never experienced it, but it like viscerally feels heavy. Like it is like you are carrying a whole separate identity that you can't express, that you can't voice. There is no way to move that out of you.

And so instead it just feels like this whole separate identity that you are just carrying around.

And she's heavy, right?

Very. Yeah, it is heavy. But do you know what? Like, I think you, you get used to it.

Oh yeah.

Do you know what I mean? It's like weight training. You climatize, you climatize and that heaviness just becomes normal, for lack of a better word.

But you just kind of feel like that's just how life is. So then you just. I carried it and carried it and carried it to the point where years and years later where I couldn't carry it anymore.

And you know, there's a part of me that just went, enough. Yeah, we need to, we need to put this down or let this go.

And then when you find the freedom and liberation and all of that, it's like, oh, why have I been carrying this? Yeah. This time.

Yeah, yeah. I mean. And like. And I'm sure we'll get to that. But like, even taking that heaviness off doesn't just come with like automatic liberation and joy.

Like, that's really messy and complicated as well, so.

But you'd find light moments, I think too. Like, worship was really important to me. Like that creative expression, like being in song. Not that I was, you know, a worship leader or anything.

Yeah. But put me in the background of a choir, belt it out. Melted out. Yeah. Actually my last. At my home church, my last Sunday, the worship. Worship pastor.

Was she our worship pastor? Anyway, she was one of our worship leaders. She knew how badly I wanted to be a worship leader even though I wasn't a great singer.

So she got me up for like two songs with the microphone. I'm sure they turned it like all the way down, but I just got to be on stage and have that moment. So forever grateful to her for that.

But I would find lightness in those moments of worship when you are, you know, I think they are the sacred moments in churches where. Where you are. Where people are actually connected to spirit or God or universe, whatever we call it now.

And then we ruin it by getting some guy on stage to try and interpret a book that was written over 2,000 years ago.

Yeah.

English translation. Do a really bad job at that. But.

But those sacred moments in worship, I really treasured and adored and would love some of the services where, you know, worship would just go on for like 45 minutes, an hour.

Yeah.

Because I would be able to feel. I would feel that and feel lighter. And those were the lighter moments where, you know, you could forget about what it felt like to carry that burden.

Yeah. I have like a side question based on that because obviously, like, I'm curious how you look back on those experiences now as.

And I can relate as a formal worship leader. Worship was the way that it was like the language of my soul. I loved it. And.

And so I'm curious how you look back on those like, hourong worship sessions and now that we know just how strategic and smart and calculated some of those worship sessions are to emulate and get us to be emotional and to like conjure that emotion. How do you look back on that now and still see it as a spirit filled experience and not emotional manipulation?

Because. Oh, gonna sound like I'm taking this from a sermon, but no, go for it. God is so much bigger than that. Manipulation. Yeah.

Come through all of the, you know, to hear stories of where people have had these experiences inside or outside of church. I think you. God will meet you where you're at as cheesy. That sounds like such a Christian one liner, God. But. But it's true.

I think some of the experiences I had were. Were true and real for me at the time.

Yeah.

And just no way that any type of manipulation could have orchestrated the experience that I had.

Yeah.

I had an experience at a conference once where I started talking. I started. I started thinking about my dad.

Yeah.

And I was like, this is weird. Like, why is this happening? Like. And I tried to not think about it. Not think about it, but there was an encouragement to do that.

And this is all in worship.

And the message that came through for me for what I needed to hear at the time was that you are, yes, you are your father's son, but that doesn't mean that you will be your father's son in terms of you won't necessarily, you know, follow his footsteps.

Yeah.

So you. You are. Yes, you're your father's son, but you are more like my father. So you are everything like my father. You are made in the image of God.

Like, it was just this beautiful identity shift that needed to happen in me.

Yeah.

And that was. That was an incredible experience. I don't remember the worship song that was playing, but, you know, so.

Yeah, I still think, yes, the right chords might have been played.

Yeah.

I was bought into the. The worship song that was.

That was being sung, but I still had these incredible encounters that, you know, there's nothing they can take away from that. Yeah.

And I like asking questions like that because every. I have so many people either on the podcast or sitting in my office unpacking their own stuff as well around. Like, how do I look back on that?

How do I look back on the fact that I spoke in tongues and prophecy and all of those sorts of things?

Yeah.

How do I make sense of that? And everyone lands in such different spaces. And so, you know, like, some people will land in a space of it was emotional manipulation.

And other people will land in a space that's similar to yours. And so I like people to hear different experiences, to know that there's no right or wrong way to land after those experiences.

As long as it feels like yours still is the biggest thing.

100. And because I'm still such a spiritual person now, I'm on a very different spiritual path. But I think I still. This. There's still.

It's spiritual language that I speak, and it. To some people, it will sound like tongues.

Yeah.

And I don't do it outside of my house or anywhere that people can hear me because that's.

Yeah.

You know, I believe that it's a. And it's a personal internal thing that really is supposed to benefit me, not other people. So. So I still do that and I still connect with spirit.

And I. And I. I. You know, I don't necessarily use Father, Son, Holy Spirit anymore, but. Because it's a lot broader than that. But, yeah, I still.

I still use that. So I'm. I'm. I guess I look back on it and I'm grateful for a lot of what I was introduced to.

You know, Were there some crazy, wacky Bible teachings that were part of that? Sure. Was there some beliefs that formed programming inside of me that I've. That I've had to unpick and unlearn over the last five or six years?

Absolutely.

But.

But, you know, there were some really beautiful experiences in that. That connected me to this thing called spirit and has allowed me to then continue that in a much different way.

Yeah. And I think that's the beauty of coming out of, like, very binary black and white systems, which is that, oh, like there is nuance in the world.

And actually we can do both and we can remember the good and hold the good and not have to erase that and eradicate it just because there was a harm done. We can actually, as humans have the capacity to hold both.

Yeah.

And. And I think that that's beautiful. So we have derailed greatly. But that's okay. Okay, let's like, fast forward a little bit.

Like, when did you come out?

I came out. So I'd left home at 19 to go to barber college in Sydney.

Yeah.

And then I got to Sydney and I was like, whoa, hang on a second. Yeah, there's a. This is a big wide world out here. Holy. So I was still very much in church, but there was this big wide world out there. And I was.

I was. I'd already been, like, drinking in high school, but now I was really drinking and was, like, introduced to drugs for the first time.

Like recreational drugs and like. So. But there was this pull of being pulled in, like, two different spaces. And the really complicated, slightly up part at the time was I was.

I'd slept with two guys at church.

Right.

Yeah.

Not so anonymous. Hey, not so anonymous anymore.

Anonymous anymore. No. Far out. So those two worlds. Yeah. Very messy.

So those Worlds were separate right up until that time and those worlds were now combining and I had mixed them both together and it just freaked me out. I was like, oh God, what have I done? Like, this is too, this is too much. I can't handle it.

Yeah.

And it made sense for me to leave church and try and figure it out. And then. So then that gave me then the freedom to then go, well, I'm just gonna now be who I want to be.

Yeah.

In a really kind of brat kind of way.

Yeah. Okay.

And then. And so probably 20, 21, I think I came out to my parents and then. And my friends at the time.

Yeah.

How was your family?

Mum was great, but both of them were great, actually. I don't know, mom, we told, I told them separately obviously, because they're separated.

So mom, I told and I think your reaction was like, oh darling, I think I'd be more surprised if you weren't.

So unsurprising.

No, mums know, there were the signs along the way. Yeah. And then I wrote this letter to dad and it was like.

Yeah, it was a couple of pages and it was quite defensive and I don't know why I thought that I had to be defensive at the time but. But yeah, he was, he was. Dad was great. So it was kind of. Yeah. I don't know why I felt like I needed to act the way I was.

But at the same time, you know, I, I was struggling to cope with life outside of the church and outside of this community that I'd found. They've been such a safe, safe place for me. Yeah, I was finding it in other ways and finding other friends and all of that sort of thing.

But there was still lots of partying to find acceptance in my social circles, but also help me escape the reality of having to face some of this stuff that I was going through. So whilst wasn't a. It wasn't all sunshine, lollipops and rainbows, you know, it was, it was hard. I was like.

And two, like a lot of the gay community and what was happening in the gay community still because of my internalized homophobia was still wrong or too much or too flamboyant or too gay. And it felt wrong to step into some of those spaces. So.

So whilst I was out, you know, coming out of Church at 21, trying to figure out like what, what is all this now and where can I. What can I step into and what does this mean?

And yeah, I find the process of being out and feeling some self affirmation about Your queerness are not. They're not always at the same time.

There's sometimes a point where you are technically out, but internally, that doesn't necessarily mean that you affirm your own identity. They're not always the same thing.

Yeah.

And so, like, I'm curious how, like, moving from one community, church community, to, like, I'm. What I'm assuming is like a secular community.

More so.

Yeah.

What did that do to your sense of faith and spirituality? Was it still as strong as it was, or did it wane?

It waned. Yeah. Definitely. Yeah. I definitely put a lid on all of that. That. Yeah, that was. And just, you know, like I said, just became a master of escaping.

Yeah.

So. And had a great time, I bet.

Yeah.

Really good time. But the more I found friendships and really strong relationships in the secular world with friends that were just. Just love and accept me.

Yeah.

Who I was because. And two, because they met me. When they met me. That's all they knew. They only knew me as me being the open gay version of me. That was.

So they didn't know the backstory. They knew the backstory in terms of where I was from, but not the church story. Yeah. And just because they.

They didn't have that upbringing, it would have been too hard to explain. And I didn't want to deal with those demons, if you like. So it was just easier to not talk about it and. And keep partying.

Yeah.

Did you have a sense that you were escaping at the time, or is that language that you have now?

Oh, I think I knew at the time.

Okay.

I knew there was always a sense of, like, you know, I'm. I'm running from this. Yeah. I'm running from a part of life that I need to deal with, and I will get to it one day. But. But not right now.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Now I know that that escapism escalated at some point, and so I'm wondering if you are comfy sharing that.

How that escalated in my 20s.

Yes.

Yes. Gosh.

Because I think up until this point, and I remember listening to the queerfully made episode, and I had that moment when you said. Said the words that I know that you will say in. In a bit. And I was like, you've got to be kidding me.

I was like, I'm looking at Ben and he's like, the sweetest human. And I was like, these two things do not. I cannot. Like, I could not make sense of it in my head.

And so I am imagining that I'm sort of saying that going, like, when people Listen to this. I think they're going to have the same, the same sort of reaction that I'm sure what you've gotten tons and tons of times.

Yeah, yeah. There's often their reaction. Yeah.

It's a crazy part of the, part of my story but the partying got to a point where I was a bit out of control and became, got to the point where I was in debt.

Yeah.

So not massively but enough where I was like, oh gosh, I need to do something here.

And I got presented with an opportunity which was, you know, you can clear your debt and make money if you go to another country and bring drugs into this country.

Yeah.

So that was an opportunity that was put in front of me. And that brat arrogance kind of, I'd gotten, gotten away with so much over the years.

I had this, this weird arrogance master's confidence that was like, well yeah, because I get away with everything and yeah. Out you know, I, I'll get away with this. Like there's no way I'm going to get caught. Like so, so yeah.

Was arrested at Sydney Airport by two federal police officers and taken to Sarah Hills Police station where I was processed and then the next day taken to a remand center.

Yeah.

Where I was processed and then spent the next nine months going back and forth to, to court before I was finally sentenced to seven and a half years was my top sentence and four and a half years was my bottom sentence. So four and a half in the bottom means that you have to serve four and a half.

Yeah.

And then you're eligible for parole and then you can.

And the parole board makes the decision as to whether or not you'll be released at that time or whether you need to keep serving time in prison until they make another decision. So yeah, so 23 year old Ben was, was found himself in prison wearing prison greens going how the hell did I get here?

Yeah.

I mean like we'll get to that bit. But like how do you look back on 23 year old Ben? Like how do you feel about him now?

I just, huh, I go, he was so lost.

Yeah.

You know, and I just think in hindsight it was the best thing that could have happened to him.

Yeah.

You know, and it needed to happen. It was the biggest wake up call. It was the biggest wake up call anyone can go through.

Yeah.

Me. It was the wake up Call to go, what are you doing with your life?

Yeah.

And it gave me the time to then go to figure life out and to do that sober to that clean and sober and, and with structure and routine. And you know, there was a lot of good things that happened throughout my time in there.

So yeah, I, I think of 23 year old Ben going, feeling scared and lost and not knowing what's happening to him at the time, but it ended up being a really good thing.

Yeah.

And I mean, I think a lot of people are probably thinking prison and gay don't really go together. Not safely anyway. So. No, I'm imagining you went flying straight back into the closet.

Oh, hell yeah. Yeah. Straight back in there. Yeah, yeah.

And one of my friends actually reached out to the prison and because I was really concerned about my welfare and spoke to the.

With there are, there are different support staff within prison and one of them was a drug and alcohol counselor and there's another welfare and officer, so kind of social worker type people that are in there. And she spoke to the social worker or the welfare officer and said, I'm concerned for him for this reason.

Yeah, he is gay and if that gets to be found out, you know, I'm scared for his safety.

Yeah.

So at one stage I was pulled into the office, didn't know who I was going to be talking to and what was going on. And she got me into a quiet room and just said, you know, this is the conversation I've had with this person.

And you know, there are certain steps that we can take to help keep you safe. Do you feel like your life is in danger right now? Do we need to take steps to ensure that you remain safe? And I felt pretty safe at the time, so.

But she gave me pathways or avenues that if I ever needed to tap in or tap out of where I was, that that was an option for me. But yeah, very much back in the closet, acting straight, you know, becoming one of the boys.

And as much as you interact with guys in there, there's no, you don't really ask a lot of questions. Like, part of the code is that you don't ever ask anyone why they're in there because why do you want to know why you're asking questions?

Because the only people that ask questions are snitches because they're trying to get information that they can sell to try and, you know, make their situation better. So, so there was kind of this bizarre moral code that I learned very quickly. That was a part of it. But yeah, I think no one. So staff knew.

I don't know which offices knew, but. But yeah, I knew that that was an option if I needed to. If I needed to tap out, then. Then there was. There was a pathway there for me.

What was the impact of that psychologically and on your mental health, of having to, like, put yourself back into a space that you had come out of in terms of your sexuality?

Because I think it's like, without knowing too much about psychology, you'd probably be able to give me more insight into this. It was part of flight or. Or.

What is it like a fight flight? Freeze, Fawn.

Like a tree spawn. Yeah, it was born. Yeah, it was very much fawn. It was just like, no, no, you need to do this for your own protection and your own security.

So I think because it was part of that, it was. It was pretty easy.

Yeah.

And life was so different. Like, this is a inside prison is a whole different world, you know, so it was easier because I wasn't.

I was removed from the world that I had just been in, being my, you know, confused, lost gay self. I was now in another world, so had to adopt a different way of being. So it was kind of easy.

Yeah.

And because I've done it before, you know.

Yeah. I often joke about, like, Chrissy, my wife, is like, I will just throw random things, like, from, like, my pre. Like my church days.

And she's like, it's so easy for you to slot back into that version of you. And I was like, oh, it's almost like automatic at some point.

And so, like, I wondered whether it was almost like an automatic transition because it's so inbuilt in you. It feels a little bit like parts of that is, like, part of our DNA.

Yeah.

Especially when safety is there, like, and, you know, those survival instincts, you know, that foreign response kicks in. It is automatic.

Yeah.

Yeah. So, okay. I also. I love. I love coming into these episodes knowing a little bit because I'm like, oh, I feel like I spoilers you.

And this, I feel like, is a very common thing when we, you know, hear people's stories of, like, going to prison, coming out of prison. You found your faith again, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

What was that like?

Yeah. So I had my. I had a. A volunteer come from an organization called Prison Fellowship that is built on volunteers and some beautiful, beautiful people.

And my mum ran into someone in New Zealand who they knew from years ago. I think he was like the page boy at their wedding.

It's a very small world.

It's a very small World. This was like super random. Like, I don't think she. Well, they weren't connected anymore. Like, you know what I mean?

Like, they had lost touch, lost connection and then reconnected somehow. And then he was then the. The head of Prison Fellowship. He was running Prison Fellowship in New Zealand. So Mum shared with him and was like, oh.

He was like, oh, I'll get someone to go and visit Ben over there. So he got in contact with Prison Fellowship Australia. Someone came to visit me and he was one of those, like, really enthusiastic Christians.

And I'm like, oh, God, I'd love to cringe.

Except I'm pretty sure everyone who knew me would have been like, yeah, you, you as enthusiastic Christ. I'm pretty sure also. I'm pretty sure Aaron would have also been one of those enthusiasts.

100%. He was the leader of that group. He was the leader of those.

Oh, but probably not the vibe that you were wanting. Oh, my God. In the space you were in.

No, but I think. But part of me there was a, like a. I think an empathetic response being like, I so appreciate your intent.

Yeah.

You know, and we would say in Christian World, you say, you know, I could see his heart.

Yeah.

You know, and. And what he was trying to do. And so. And plus, like, he would come to visit me, like. And he came more than like a lot of my friends did.

He lived closer, which made it easier. But he would come every two weeks and he bought me snacks when he'd come to visit.

So bonus food, curs, everything. Yeah.

Cans of co. Broken chips. He kept. He bought Maltesers, which I never used to like Malteses, but I. He. But I never had the.

The heart to say, I actually don't like these. Can you buy me. You get M M's instead. So now I love Malteses. Does he get buying me them every week.

But he'd bring his Bible in and he'd pray, you know, at the end of it. And. And yeah, so he was. He was a really, really beautiful man. That did. That really helped.

And then Prison Fellowship were doing things inside of prisons as well. So once a month, the pr.

Where I was at the time, I think it was like once a month or once in a blue moon, they would come and kind of do a service, if you like. That was, yeah, very low key. But. But, yeah, so I guess that's where I kind of. But then I had my own journey to go on inside of myself. Right.

And wanted to. I made the choice to connect with God again. Yeah.

Like, I'm curious. Because the God that you knew, you then walked away from. And so then how is it to then reconnect with someone that you went. You walked away from?

Yeah. Yeah.

Like, it's a weird sort of scenario, right?

Yeah.

And I don't know if I shared this experience on, on the Queer Fully Made episode, but I, the way that I, the moment that I remember, I was on a top bunk. So you share a cell with someone else on the top funk. And I just prayed and asked God, you know, I said, I, I, I need you back in my life. Basically.

Like, I'm, I'm done with running. I'm done with, you know, of doing life without you. I need you back in my life.

And before I could finish the word life, like, I just felt this incredible presence, like, over me. And I was like. Felt like I was floating. Like, I knew I was physically on a bed, but I felt like I was floating.

And just the, the feeling was love and grace and peace and like, it was just intense to the point where I was like ugly crying. But had to do that really quietly because there's someone on the bottom bunk. You know, I can't let him know that I'm crying.

Yeah.

Or praying. Two things that will probably get you not beaten up, but at least picked on.

Yeah.

You know, so, so, yeah, so I'm ugly crying, the top bunk.

Having this incredible spiritual experience with what I knew at the time to be God, but just met me, you know, in a prison cell, totally where I was at. And just. Yeah, the. That unconditional love that I felt before that was there for me again, I guess as a prodigal.

Yeah.

That was kind of coming home. Yeah. Behind bars.

I'm curious what it was. Like, you sort of said, like, I need you in that prayer. Like, I need you to come back.

What was it that you felt like God was going to give you that you couldn't get from you at that point?

I don't know. I don't know. But I knew that I could. I wasn't getting it within me.

I knew that I had experienced a life beforehand when, When God was in my life, that whatever I was connecting to back then, I knew that was like. And I wanted to feel that again because that was incredibly comforting.

So I didn't know enough about myself back then, but I did know that I could connect it back to a higher power in this way. So that, that made more sense than going within.

Yeah.

Because I, I know that that practice now and I, you know, that's very Much how I. Part of my own spiritual practice and part of my own figuring stuff out in therapy and all of that stuff now.

But at the time, yeah, I felt like that was an easier answer for me.

I'm going to ask this as like a double barreled question a little bit, I guess, which I'm a little bit known for, of just like asking multiple questions in one hit. But, but I'm asking it on the basis of like I know what it is like to leave church and spend.

I mean I call it my two year rebellion where I walked away and I did everything that I wasn't allowed to do and then shit hit the fan and I came back to God.

And that felt a little, that two years felt like I used that as proof that living that lifestyle, that living a queer lifestyle was never going to be good for me, that it was always going to end in disaster.

And so I'm curious at this point how you felt internally about your own sexuality and was where you were at being used as like a punishment or like as a reasoning for why you needed to go back to God, that this is the right way.

Wow. Yeah.

I think like in a lot of ways it felt like, you know, if I was, if I was going to come back to God, that beyond that experience of being on the top bunk that night in my mind because of church programming, it meant. And beliefs, it meant this, this, this and this which meant stop being gay.

Yep.

Stop sinning, you know, like turn your life around.

And that was mixed up with this whole like, ah, I'm being given a second chance here and I need to prove that I'm worthy of the second chance to my friends and my family and my, and the world at large. You know, this is. You wait till I get out. This is going to be, you know, the best version of me that you've ever seen.

You know, so there was that playing into it as well. But I think, I think, yeah, it was very much moving away from this life that I had started to live on the outside and going back into the closet.

But yeah, it didn't feel like I was grieving that in any way because I'd convinced myself that it was the, this was the right thing to. To be doing.

Interesting.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, and obviously like you're in the closet for safety anyway, but now you are like internally in the closet because you again sort of like had this confirmation that it was not okay, that it was wrong.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and self imposed belief.

Yeah.

Do you know what I mean?

Yeah.

Like, it was just. Just because I knew from years gone by that this equals that.

So therefore, you know, this is the belief that I need to adopt, because that's what's going to be those.

That's when those are part of the beliefs of the community that I'm now wanting to be a part of again, you know, And I started to reconnect with, you know, other people in church and connected with a Christian organization, like, with a church that was coming to the. One of the last centers that I was at. They were coming in once a month and. And this community church. Gosh, they were incredible.

Such beautiful people. And so then they're in. And so then they encouraged a group of us to start running our own services on Sundays.

So there was a small kind of gathering of us that were doing our own thing internally, which they discussed, just saw as like, you know, revival in the prison kind of thing. Like, yeah, just like, it's no longer just us coming in once a month.

It's these young guys that are, you know, that are changing the world from inside the prison.

Yeah. I was like, I'm hearing like, the song from the inside Out. Like, that's what I'm imagining 100, the.

Album the time, I think. Yeah, gosh, yeah, but we were. And yeah, being given all the. The resources, had all the Hillsong CDs that were being given to us through the chaplain.

So the chaplain was really supportive that was there as well. The Salvation army chaplain, Ron, who was again, a really beautiful human. So. So, yeah, I think I was. I was on that path, you know, and that then.

Then that got closer to my release date, which was then, like, well, gosh, then this is going to be me in back in Face faith community, back in church, you know, and I get to start my life again on the outside. And that's going to be without drugs and without alcohol, and it's going to be in a faith community with those beliefs.

Therefore, I'm going to have those beliefs.

Yeah. And so is that what it looked like when you were released and what was reintegrating back into society like, for you so easy? Yeah, I bet.

It's like I. I will often use like, like prison reintegration as, like, examples for, like, people leaving cults. Like, I talk about it with, like, cult recovery. Recovery in terms of, like, reintegrating into society.

And the overwhelming thing is it's really hard.

It is really hard. Yeah. And I think I should. So.

So two things I should say leading up to that point, probably 12 months, the last 12 months of my time in there, I was doing weekend release. At times so different. I think once a month. It can be once a month.

But it wasn't for me because I didn't have family in Sydney, but I did have some family friends and that guy that was coming to visit me from prison scholarship.

Yeah.

I got to go out on weekend leave and stay at his house for a few weekends. So that really helped. Right. I remember being in the car for the first time with like a family friend of ours staying at his place.

Being in the car going past a train. A train went past us and I hadn't seen a train in like over three years. Do you know what I mean?

Like, just seeing that so that those weekends really helped. So when it got to the day and the other thing I'd say is I'd seen a lot of my friends, like I'd seen their release day.

Yeah.

And us kind of cheering, cheering them on as the. And say goodbye.

So it was the same, this kind of weird bittersweet moment of like saying goodbye but then being super happy for them because they, they're getting their, their day of, you know, being out and being back with their family and friends and, and being free. There's this whole thing around freedom. Freedom was on the outside.

Yeah.

So then that came for me and it was so surreal. But my dad came and picked me up, my dad and my stepmom, which I really love and adore. And we spent a few days together and then they left.

And it was probably a week after that that I was sitting at a park bench one day and I just burst into tears because it was just. I was like, had this freedom but didn't know what to do with it. I was like, what do I, what do I do now?

I was out of the routine, I was out of the structure. I was out of the support. As weird as that sounds. Those are the things that had conditioned me for four and a half years.

So now I'm out going like, what I, what the hell do I do now?

Yeah.

And Sydney felt weird. So I left Sydney pretty quickly and moved up to Brisbane, moved in with family up there and started life again. Yeah.

And did you go into. And I guess this is the, like the difference is often people coming out of a cult, they're leaving their ready made community.

Did you go back into a ready made community in Brisbane? Like in terms of church?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yep. So my youth pastor from New Zealand was now running a church in Brisbane. Right.

And my auntie knuckle that I was living with at the time were going to their church.

Oh.

So I just slotted in there.

Yeah.

So this is.

Not only am I connected with family in a safe space there, I am connected in with friends that knew me from back in that time and had supported me too through, you know, through prison and everything from a distance, but as much as they could, you know, and then, and then we got to reconnect and I got to be part of their family life and their church community and their like, it was so easy and, and beautiful and, and safe and it was exactly what I needed at the time whilst still suppressing that part of me.

Yeah. I'm like, there's a caveat here because.

As much as he wants to be in church on Sundays, he also wants.

To run out and he has lots of boys.

There's lots of boys.

Yeah, yeah. And so like. Okay, I'm trying to sort of like piece timelines together as well, which is like.

Because I think a lot of people think that like these things happen quite quickly or like extremes in time. Either it's happening over like decades or it, it's happening over like weeks.

But like, what was it like for you to go into that ready made community, connecting to the scent, this new renewed sense of spirituality? And at what point did we go, oh, I can't suppress my sexuality any longer.

Yeah. So I think the first part of it was quite quick in terms of reintegration back into and connecting with that.

The people that I knew and being able to slot into that.

Yeah.

Part of life that was pretty easy and happened quite quickly. But relationships still need to form and build and you know, that got stronger.

I was, was then, you know, months later was in leadership positions and, and, and all of that.

So that just kind of always happens very quick.

It always happens very quickly. So there was all of that and then I left that church and went to another church and again very quickly found myself in a leadership position. So.

So the leadership positions that I was in, in the churches, you know, I, I still would. The people that I was under leadership, I still kind of submitted to that leadership.

And part of that I was really open and honest about the struggle.

Yeah.

At the time. So. And then that's where I was introduced to, you know, courses and Versions of what we know as conversion therapy now.

Yeah, I didn't know that at the time. Was definitely not labeled that.

Yeah.

At the time. But that's where I was introduced to, to all of that as part of that 12 year journey, that 12 year window. So. Yeah. And.

And tried, you know, attempted, I think three times to have girlfriends. Yeah. But, you know, like. Well, it kind of did because, like, in Christian circles, all you can do is hold hands and kids.

Yeah.

I was like, you're not allowed to do anything anyway.

No. Which is perfect for me.

Yeah, I don't want to do anything either.

No, that's. I don't want to do anything else. I just wanted to. Yeah. So I just got to make out with one of my really good friends. We're still really good friends.

Friends, actually. She's. She's incredible. And I'm very grateful that she's still a part of my life. But yeah, at the time we were just like.

And everyone, of course, was so excited that we were dating.

Yeah.

It's just like, you know, the. Almost like the Christian power couple.

It was just ridiculous to the point where almost had to say, like, calm down, there's no ring on the finger yet, you know, was. But I definitely still trying to convince myself that, no, no, this is what needs to happen. You need to one day, you need to. To propose.

And this is, you know, it's all going to change after you get married. And so. Yeah. Which. Which of course was not the case.

Yeah.

I want to get to the 20, 20 point, but I actually have an extra question which is were you treated at any point, were you treated differently because you were someone who had come out of prison or was that ever used as a, like, poster child of, like, coming out of prison, finding Jesus? Like that sort of like, test into a testimony mess into a message kind of thing? Was that ever part of that for you?

Yeah, it was story porn.

Yeah. Right.

Yeah.

As soon as the, the, you know, as soon as one of them pastors with too much enthusiasm, which is all of them, you know, finds out about it and wants to, like, get you on stage to talk about your story. Like, it, it's. Yeah. So that I think I, I shared it probably. Oh, at least twice, maybe three times in church or like properly on stage.

Yeah.

So. Yeah, so that was. Yeah, like, to the, the last time that I did it, I was kind of like, okay, I. I think I'm ready to stop doing this now. Like.

Yeah, you know, this is getting to be a little bit too much of a. A sideshow.

Yeah.

Come along to see. So. Yeah. So I understand, you know, there was. I understand why. And you know, how it can. It's the redemption story and.

And how it ties into the narrative and all of that. So was more than happy to share.

At the time, but at some point, from one prodigal to another, it gets tiring. And it gets tiring being viewed like that as well, because then you. You can't ever up, like, ever, because that's not part of the story.

That doesn't fit the narrative. And so, like, there's so much pressure to be that person in the community.

Yeah.

Yeah. It's this like a level of tiredness that comes with that. For sure.

100. Yeah, you are. Yeah, you're so right. It's the golden child. You know, you're either. You're the poster boy for redemption. So therefore.

Yeah, that means this, this, and this.

Absolutely. Yeah.

The pressure was on.

Yeah.

So I met someone at church who was kind of in church, kind of not. And he saw me for me straight away, and he called it out really openly one day. It was just like, you're gay? And I was like, like, what? No.

No, I'm not. How.

How dare you?

How dare you? Clutch DEBT giveaway so. And he became a really important friend during that time. So I was. I was able to act out.

Yeah.

Of the. The. The, you know, perfect Christian boy and go and. And have this side life with him every now and then. And he had a beautiful group of friends and.

And that was really helpful. So that was the start. I mentioned that because that's the start of me acknowledging. Because he saw it and he called it out. It was.

Started me acknowledging that part of me again.

Yeah.

So in protest, there were a number of others, myself and probably three or four others that all decided to step down from leadership positions in protest of the decision that was made. Yeah. Because we're like, like, where is the line he's been serving in that role for six and a half years.

Yeah.

And now he's made the decision to live his life openly as a gay man. We're going to say that you can't do that anymore. Like, what? So you've drawn a line for him. Why is that just for him and not for the rest of us?

Like, this doesn't. So it really kind of shook our leadership team and our elders. Our elders are like, what the hell is going. Going on? Like, why this reaction?

And we were then surprised at their reaction being like, are you serious?

Why are you surprised that we're surprised?

Are you surprised that we're surprised? The shock here, like, no.

And so there was this really open, honest dialogue that was so open and honest to a point, and it was met with heightened emotion, but it was still. The conversation was being had. So that kind of. That started something as well. And it got to the point where I was like, you know, I can. I can.

This. This really beautiful girl we're chatting on there. We swapped to swap numbers, started texting, and then started calling.

We had a phone call one time, and we spoke for, like, an hour, and it was great. And it was when I got off the phone and I just broke down.

Yeah.

And this part of me that just went, I can't do this anymore. Like, I can't force myself into this. I can't keep trying. I've been trying for years, and I'm tired, and I can't do this anymore. So it's. It's.

I had a mini breakdown.

Yeah.

And was kind of. It was during COVID so that was. I was already indoors, so I probably would have spent a lot of time in my room anyway.

But, you know, the government was telling me I had to be in my room.

Yeah.

And I think that gave me the solitude that I needed to be able to process that. You know, and it took. It took months. It took a. You know, I'd say probably three months.

Months before I was like, okay, like, what am I gonna do about this? Like, you know, I can't stay like this anymore. Like, what?

And I got just this feeling of, like, what if you were to switch the preferences on the app? Like, on that dating app. What if you were to switch it to Guys, like what would. Yeah, like, let's just feel this out.

Like, let's not tell anyone and just see and, and experience it and see what it feels like.

Like an experiment.

Experiment to start chatting to guys.

Yeah.

So I did and then came across this really beautiful profile. His. His profile, all his pictures. Like just pure joy. Yeah, like just. It was. It was just this beautiful joy that was coming through and I was like.

So we connected through that and then through a series of really amazing events, actually got to meet face to face through like borders opening temporarily and all that sort of thing. But he'd been through the same thing two years ago.

Oh, wow.

So he became my person that just kind of guided me through this. It's all still very much in secret. Yeah. We were doing church, but doing it online and you know, and all of that.

So it did get to the point though where I had to sit down with my senior pastor and be like, this is what's going on and this is the decision that I've made. And. And you know, I want to let you know and I know that this changes things. Yeah. And I was really, really lucky in that I was met with.

With love and acceptance and grace. And they were so beautiful in their response.

And you know, I think one of them said at one stage, yeah, this does change things, but we don't have to talk about that today. We're just so thankful and grateful that you've, you know, felt like you can talk to us and open up and share. So. Yeah, so.

Yeah, so that was the turning point and a really hard thing to go through at the time, but so grateful because that's just set me on a completely different path. And I've finally got to acknowledge, like, come home to myself and acknowledge this part of me that's, you know, my sexuality but.

But so linked to my identity and my self expression and the way that I. Who I am.

Yeah.

And I now get to share that openly with the world, which is a really beautiful thing.

What was it like for you to unlearn the conditioning and like the, like the clubber passages and all of the things, things like that, like, are hardwired into us.

Yeah.

Around our queerness being wrong. Like, what was that process like for you to unlearn that?

That's still happening.

Yeah.

You know, I think. Well, I think not so much linked to, I guess, my queerness, but I think more so just around some of my thinking. I've had to. I've noticed.

I've been like, why do I think that oh, church condition, you know, church programming. So that's still. And I've spoken to some friends about that that are no longer in the church as well, and they're like, yep.

Oh, it comes out in the weirdest layers. Like, it's just bizarre.

Yeah. So I think. So in that way, it's still happening.

But I think for me to explore and go and find voices in this space was really challenging because I couldn't find a lot. Yeah. And, you know, what I'd been introduced to in terms of, like, Cy Rogers and, you know.

Yeah.

The poster boy for. Oh, being able to pray the gay away and come out the other side and, you know, still be married and. And, yeah. Live a wholesome life.

So I think I struggled to find. Stories, resources, people to. To speak to initially.

Yeah.

But then that was a really gradual process. I had to do that slowly.

Yeah.

There were other things that were more important for me and my journey at the time. So being with people and being with safe people, safe friends. Friends that are still my friends today. And.

And I was with someone at the time, found a boyfriend pretty quickly after I came out. Beautiful man who I'm still very, very good friends with. But that was like a year of just, you know, exploring, like, being in a relationship.

Yeah.

With a man, you know, and so being able to challenge some of those beliefs and unpick and unlearn some of those things with someone made it easier, too, because I was explaining what I'd gone through with church stuff before to him. Yeah. And he'd not had any of that kind of background upbringing. So.

Yeah.

Being able to vocalize that to someone who has no idea is. There is, like, a real, like, healing aspect to that. And for someone, like, I've done that before, and they're like, oh, that's like, insane.

And I'm like, yes, I know. But I didn't think it was insane at the time.

Sometimes vocalizing those things to someone else who has no idea it doesn't have the same context is such a unique experience, but it's a really cool one.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, it was. Yeah, it was really. He. He did really well at listening to my trauma and helping me with that. But then. Yeah, I. I felt.

I guess the way I engaged it more like it was, you know, it was watching Queer Eye. It was watching Drag Race. It was then it was being able to engage with the community that way as well. Well, that was really. It was easing into it.

I wasn't kind of throwing myself into it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I just thought of a question when you said, like, all of your trauma.

Because I'm sitting here thinking throughout all of this, like, we obviously can say, I think anybody who has experience, like, suppressing their identity and living in spaces that don't see them as their full self is going to come out with a level of trauma. And then obviously, you have prison on top of that.

And yet you sit here in this conversation and you are able to look back with a level of gratitude about those things. And I'm curious how you got to that point. And I'm sure other people are as well.

And mine, I'm like, subtly probably thinking therapy had a role to do within that. But, like, how is it for you to sit here and look back on those incredibly painful experiences and go, yeah, but it was what I needed.

It's what, like, I needed that. Something like that to happen.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's. It. I'm so grateful that I can now look back on it. But you're right, I think it's a mixture of therapy.

So I've been working with a coach and therapist for the last five years, off and on. Would do big stints together and then have breaks and then reconnect. So he's been a really important person in my life, I would say the.

My own spiritual journey and exploring, reconnecting with that in a different way and widening. I talk about, like, that narrow Christian view that I had, just, like, stretching that wide open to explore all different types of spirituality and.

And, like, there's parts of that have been really healing as well.

Yeah.

It's like throwing a new look on. Like a new perspective on the narrow and wide path.

Yeah, I love that also.

Yeah.

Understanding that what I was connected to in terms of spirit or God was real and is real.

Yeah.

It's still real for me. But to. There are different guides now that come through for me in prayer, or I call it meditation now, but there's been a few different ones.

And Jesus comes through every now and then still. So it's kind of. It's just made me go, gosh, there's so much more to this spiritual experience than the church confines it.

To feel like I was, you know, in one room looking through one window, and now I've got to explore the rest of the house and just go. There's lots of windows.

Yeah.

And there's.

And there's doors and there's like. There's secret ones.

Yes. And layers to all of that. And some of them change and move and there's no. It's wild. And it's just. It's blowing my mind still today.

And so that's been a really important path for me to walk and has really been helpful in terms of my own healing.

Yeah.

Connecting with people that have been through the same thing has been really. So obviously meeting Aaron.

Yeah.

Very similar stories, very similar timelines.

Yeah.

And have our kind of recognized that what we went through can be easier for other people if we can help them. So then how do we help them? Which is why we started queerfully made. Yeah. And then I'd say family and friends support has been. Has really helped.

Yeah.

Especially my family.

But we love that it was for you because we don't want it. Those other experiences wanted to be the beautiful celebratory one like it should be. Yeah.

And then the last thing that's been really healing has been which I was. I really underestimated was moving cities.

Yeah.

So I moved from Brisbane down to Melbourne and I really underestimated how therapeutic moving interstate is or can be and how that can really. You know, there's a lot that happened in Brisbane and it was beautiful and it was great.

But there was a lot of other stuff that happened and physically moving away from that actually really helped me at the time to kind of leave some stuff there. So. Yeah. I'm sure there's a way better therapeutic description that you could give in terms of like how that.

I love that. And I don't want people to hear a therapeutic description. I want people to hear real descriptions.

Yeah. Oh, it's. It's everything. It's. Yeah. It's who I connect to every single day and connect with it in the most beautiful way.

And the things that I'm learning about myself and the things that I connect with and. And the way that it allows me to connect with other people has just been really, really beautiful. So. Yeah.

And I think grateful that I can connect with it in a way that I, I, you know, I get not just comfort, but a sense of who I am in amongst all of this as well. So.

Yeah, because what is it like for you to have a spiritual figure now that you connect with? Who is not condemning your identity at the same time?

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Condemning that part. Yeah. It's beautiful. It's.

It's so much my identity from that perspective is so beyond all of these labels that we put on, you know, and. And I understand how labels can be important and serve us at. At different times, but.

But two, I think my own evolution of it is that, you know, I am so much more than this gay version of me, if that makes sense. There's, you know, in essence, I'm love, I am light, I am, you know, all of those things. And then I go out and sleep with men.

So, you know, but I think. And then whatever labels people need to put on that, they can put on that. So. Yeah, I think the spiritual practices that I'm.

That I'm following now are not aligned. Not necessarily aligned to any religion, but I experience the divine and. And I think too, I've got to a point where I'm experiencing.

I feel like I'm experiencing that and more fullness, but, gosh, that just keeps expanding.

Yeah.

You know, and they're really beautiful things that have happened. Experiencing the feminine and the masculine aspects of the divine, you know, the. The divine feminine to come through.

I never experienced that within church.

No. Well, who. Who of a stars?

Why would you.

None of us do.

Yeah. Oh, gosh. But like, this year in particular, have really connected with that. The divine feminine and then the.

This other form of divine, masculine, outside of Jesus and God. And then the two of them that have come together recently to kind of like they both dwell within you as well.

Like, don't just see them as something that you can tap into. They both live inside of you. So. Yeah, it's just this. The journey of self and the spiritual journey are two of the best journeys you can ever go on.

Yeah.

I say. And. And I keep encouraging people to do it, whether you're from a church background or not, because it's just the best thing that you can do.

I've firmly believe that we are spiritual beings having a human experience. Yeah. So, yeah, I. I can't speak more highly of it and recommend it enough.

Yeah.

And speaking of encouragement, I finished these episodes with the same question, but I'm gonna tailor yours a little bit specifically, which is I like to just get you to give some encouragement for people who are navigating this. But I'm wondering whether you. You can speak to the people who might be feeling like you felt when you were 23. Lost, confused. 23 year old.

Ben, what would you say to that person?

What would you say to that person? I'd say that it's okay to run and it's okay to run away and it's okay to find your way. I'd say that that is all okay.

But just know there are points where there are places that you can come home to.

Yeah.

And there are safe spaces for you to land.

But at the end of the day, you need to come home to yourself first and then, and then find those, those places and those spaces because they're really, they're all really important. But. But yeah, that's what I would say. Run if you need to. But when you get tired of running, that and you need to come back. Come home to yourself.

Come home to the people that love you and just want you to be you.

Yeah. Beautiful. Thank you so much for joining me.

My pleasure.

This has been so fun. I love chatting to fun people. Thank you for joining me.

Oh, it's been so good to see you again.

Thanks for listening to beyond the Surface. If this episode resonated, challenged you, or named something you've struggled to put words to, I'm really glad you found your way here.

You'll find ways to connect, learn more, and explore further in the show. Notes. As always, you are good. You have always been good and your story matters always.