In this episode of Documentary First, filmmaker Josh Roush opens up about his deeply personal journey creating the documentary Long Lonesome Highway, a heartfelt tribute to legendary actor Michael Parks. Josh reflects on his friendship with Parks, the creative decisions behind the film, and the challenges of navigating distribution, budgeting, and fair use of archival footage.

The conversation dives into Parks’ multifaceted talent, his artistic integrity, and the lessons learned from a career defined by both triumph and adversity. Together, we explore how passion fuels storytelling, the power of documentaries to preserve legacies, and the importance of resilience in the face of obstacles.

This episode is not just about one film—it’s about what it takes to make art that matters.

Links:

Josh Roush Narrative Film - IMDB Link: Wrong Reasons (2022) - Reference view - IMDb

DocuView Déjà Vu Recommendation:

Burden of Dreams by Werner Herzog, 1982, 95 mins, Watch on Amazon Prime, IMDB Link: Burden of Dreams (1982) - Reference view - IMDb

Timecodes:

00:00 Final Thoughts and Future Endeavors

09:25 Navigating Challenges in Filmmaking

10:20 The Influence of Michael Parks

11:31 Building a Unique Relationship

13:47 The Value of Listening to Elders

14:26 Uncovering Stories from the Past

16:40 The Genesis of a Documentary Idea

18:02 Family Dynamics in Storytelling

18:54 The Kevin Smith Connection

20:58 The Role of Fair Use in Documentary Filmmaking

25:46 The Use of Music and Soundtrack

28:02 Budgeting and Financial Realities of Filmmaking

29:29 Personal Reflections on Filmmaking

34:45 Lessons from Michael Parks' Life

41:02 Legacy and Impact of Michael

42:12 Documentary Recommendations and Insights

43:33 Teaser Video

44:18 Documentary First promo

Sponsor: Virgil Films http://www.virgilfilms.com/

Support us by buying merch or watching our films: https://documentaryfirst.com/

you to know that um I'm recording.

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uh it usually happens in filming too, you know that.

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yeah.

4

Thank you for taking my call yesterday.

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my God, of course.

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Thank you for calling.

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Yeah, I just usually, it's a first, I've never done that before.

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I've never called somebody like right after I watched their movie.

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But I, you know, I'm a filmmaker too.

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And I really wanted you to hear my like first reaction right after I saw the film.

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And I had a strong one.

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And so I probably because my mom had just died and

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I recognized in you something really, really valuable.

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And I wanted to prepare you for whatever I was going to be like today.

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It was honestly, I've never had a call like that after a movie and it meant the entire

world.

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So thank you very

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I'm glad.

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Well, I was just so impressed because I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but this is what I,

this is the impression that I got after watching your film.

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You were friends with Kevin Smith.

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He wanted to do this movie, Tusk.

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You've done a lot of other things with him.

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You've had different roles, whether it was a cameraman or just different things.

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But for this one, he asked you to just

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be with Michael Parks and just be his guy.

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he was because he was older and he'd had some accidents and he was frail.

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And so you were just to take care of him.

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And it was a challenging job because he's a crusty old guy who's been injured and uh is a

strong guy.

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And just you had to spend a lot of time with him.

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So over time, you found he was a diamond and that had never been mined, really.

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Very tough and then the rough.

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Diamond in the rough, but you began to see something in him and you realized he was not

long for this world and when he left he'd be gone and You didn't want that to happen you

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wanted um You wanted us to know who this guy was and you began to appreciate him

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and you were touched by who he was and changed by who he was and you wanted us to know

that.

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And so you took on that mantle yourself and you pretty much alone made this project for a

tiny budget yourself.

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And you

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some help along the way.

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There was a couple of producers and a couple of cameramen along the way, but yes, largely

it was a one-man project.

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Yeah.

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And I am just stunned and just super impressed.

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Um, and so I wanted you to know that, um, because what you did was really good.

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it wasn't just, you know, I mean, yes, I'm saying to you that I saw your heart in the

movie.

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Yeah.

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You're a punk rocker and yeah, you're, you know, you're all that.

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But I saw beyond that and um I saw the tender guy that you are inside and I saw how much

you care about people and how hard you have worked for your craft and what you've learned

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over the time that you've been in Hollywood.

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And then it didn't make you harder.

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It made you softer.

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you um took all that and you have made this

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you know, beautiful piece of art and it's very well done.

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Like, um you were a one man band, but um you you did a really good thing.

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It's a good story, um well told.

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was um pieced together creatively.

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You know, I really liked how you used the podcast part of it.

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I thought you were creative with how you worked that in and you did this after he was

gone.

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But, you had to license footage and you had to, there was archival stuff that you did on

your own.

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You worked with big name actors that you had to book and you had to work with them on your

own.

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mean, so.

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You are incredibly kind.

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Thank you so much.

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That's a podcast.

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They can't see me blush.

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uh

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Well, I mean, we haven't really started.

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Maybe we'll use some of it, but I just, before we get into it, I just wanted you to know,

I recognized all that.

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I'm going to ask you these things, but, um and I'm going to let you tell your own story,

but without you telling me, I wanted you to know that came across.

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Well, thank you.

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I, I it really means a lot.

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Like it, it was a hell of an endeavor to get it through the finish line.

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And, know, um, we haven't got a streaming deal yet, so we'll see what happens with it.

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really?

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Yes, that was the main thing I was going to ask you because I have an amazing distributor.

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So we've signed with a distribution company, unfortunately, but we're not having a lot of

luck with it finding a home.

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So it might just go straight to consumer, which,

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So, who'd you sign with?

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Yo, yeah, I saw that.

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Who are they?

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They've done a lot of they do a lot of uh Like a repertory stuff like stuff that comes

back out and stuff.

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Are we on the record or off the record?

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We're recording, but I won't use this.

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Okay, copy.

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ah Eric is a good friend of mine.

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He runs the label, m but I they've done this and they've done wrong reasons.

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And I'm not super stoked with what they've, they, they, they send it out to criterion and

people like that.

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And they're like, Hey, would you like this?

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And then usually they don't even hear back.

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They pitch it to them.

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They don't hear back.

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So it's kind of sucked, but we are excited with them.

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So, I mean, I don't know if you're up for the challenge of trying to break that, but so

there's a guy named Joe Amaday.

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He runs Virgil Film Entertainment.

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You can look it up.

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He's also been on my podcast.

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I signed with him for my film, The Girl Who Wore Freedom, which I really hope you'll

watch.

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um Yeah, I hope you will.

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A lot of guests say that and then they don't, but I hope you will.

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um

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I found out about him because my film was in a film festival in Dubuque, Iowa.

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And I don't know if you know who Donna Reed is from the Donna Reed show.

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Like, yeah.

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So her daughter, Mary Owen was there.

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And she of course inherited all of Donna Reed's properties and still is, you know, like in

charge of them.

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And so she saw my film and she goes, you have to be with Virgil films.

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She's like, he's the real deal and he is amazing.

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And he's been in this business for over

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you know, 50 years or whatever.

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And, um, he's a good guy and he will help you.

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Now at that time I was with another distributor as well, and he wasn't doing anything for

me.

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And in fact, he ended up taking all of my money and I had brought him a deal with Delta

airlines, for $6,000.

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And he took that money and a Air France and he took that money and he took all of my money

for my first run on iTunes.

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And so it was awful.

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And, I ended up being able to break that deal because he,

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uh never gave me any reports and never gave me any money.

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um and then Joe took me on and one of the biggest deals they got for me was um they put me

on Canal Plus in France and I got 13,000 euro and that was the two year streaming deal

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there.

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um And he is kind of grandfathered into Amazon, which most distributors are not.

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And so Amazon's not taking people, but he will, he's able to put his things on Amazon.

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So I'm on Amazon, I'm on Apple TV and you know, all these other places.

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Um, and they are constantly like getting your, my film into these packages of advertising

things and stuff like that.

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Plus they are giving me reports on time.

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I can call them anytime I can email anytime I can text them anytime.

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Um, and they're just great people.

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So, you know,

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If you want to look up Virgil films entertainment, you know.

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like we just came out on DVD uh and I think we sold like 700 copies and we got the reports

back for that.

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I we made like 200 bucks.

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Like it's not very like it's.

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oh

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know, the way that I have made my money on my film, and, you know, it's probably not going

to help you maybe, I don't know.

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But the way that I've made the money is primarily in um events where I go and I speak and

I show the film.

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And, you know, I'm paid for speaking and I'm paid for the licensing fee to show it.

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And then people buy the DVDs or they buy the shirts or whatever.

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Maybe you can do that in conjunction with your other stuff.

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You know, maybe you can find a way to create those events around what you're doing or the

other friends that you have in the industry can help you set that up.

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You know, I can even walk, would be willing to walk you through because I've done it so

much.

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um

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because I think it's valuable.

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um And there should be older people who know Michael Parks and who know that series,

right?

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Who like that series.

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my audience is an older audience.

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They're in nursing homes and they're still watching DVDs.

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So they're the ones buying the DVDs.

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And so I'm selling actual DVDs that way.

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So, um but of course I have been selling stuff on Amazon.

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I've been selling stuff on Apple TV and um you know, I've been, you know, so anyway, all

of that to say, you know, I think your movie is worth, um you know, working a little

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harder for, and it would be dicey for you probably to say to them, I want to try this

maybe.

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I think it would be,

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worth your while.

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ah

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be willing to have the conversation for sure because like they didn't, if you have like a

huge following, it seems like they're a great place to be because they don't take a huge

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cut comparatively of the chunk of a, but if you don't, like they don't push it at all.

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Like they don't push anything.

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It's kind of lame.

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Yeah, and unfortunately, most distributors are that way now and they are not going to push

anything small.

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They're working for, it's up to you to push your own stuff and the people that do have the

gigantic followings on social media and whatever, they will work for those.

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But if you're a small time, you're going to have to do your own work.

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I've learned that same thing.

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Like I'm a first time filmmaker.

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So I've got very fortunate because my film was a niche film, right?

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It's a world war II film and, um, but it's a very good one.

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And, and so it did very well, but, you know, it just, it's, I don't, I am in a niche

audience.

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And so I have to work very hard if I am going to turn a profit, you know, or, or, or like,

and I'm sort of in your same boat.

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um So, anyway, I just think, um I think what you did is really good.

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I think you're very, very talented.

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And I think, um you know, no, no, no, no, I, but that's why I want you to hear it.

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It's why I want you to hear it.

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I mean, what, what you did is really amazing and you did it all yourself.

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And I don't know if you're wanting to continue that like, um

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But you can, you can, you have it in you and you have the ability to do that.

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And just because it hasn't been picked up doesn't mean, and it doesn't mean shit.

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The problem is in our industry right now, it's upside down on its head and it doesn't

matter if it's narrative or it doesn't matter if it's documentary, nobody is buying

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independent stuff, nobody.

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And so even if you're a talent, even if you're somebody big, right?

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you have to be huge and have your own distribution channel like, you know, I don't know,

know, Vince Vaughn or whoever, you know, to make a thing um in order to make it profitable

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really.

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it's rough.

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um So I mean, I don't know.

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Is that what you want to do?

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I mean, yeah, no, I'm definitely not like I'm too stubborn to ever stop doing what I do.

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So it's, you know, it's it's definitely all I know at this point.

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We did some screenings like I like four walled a couple of theaters.

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We had good success in a place called Ohio because like, you know, Michael was from there.

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Like a lot of old people came out.

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um But as far as turning a profit, I just do it because I don't know anything else and I

love it.

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Usually I just my own money.

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So it was like 50 K, right?

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It was about 50K.

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We had a 40K budget and it went up to 50 because we were waiting on Tarantino for like 10

years and then we had to go through the lawyers to clear everything again afterwards

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because the laws had changed since then.

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So, and that was just my own money.

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Wow, well, um and so you probably really haven't made anything back, right?

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Yeah, and so that's kind of the way was to me.

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Mine was 500K and probably more and I'm still spending money on that and I kind of broken

even, but um it wouldn't matter.

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Like I was going to tell the story anyway and it's a passion thing just like yours.

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And um I love filmmaking and I have the luxury, like you have a job, right?

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You're getting paid and you are, it seems to me, and you are able to do music videos and

other things like that.

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It's not like you're starving.

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Like, you know, you are paying your own way and I am married and have a husband that has a

job.

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So I have the luxury of making stuff, um you know, so I'm not gonna really stop.

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It's a passion, right?

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uh

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So, but that being said, you still want to be a successful filmmaker.

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So the question is, how do you, how are we going to do that in this environment?

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Yep, and the worst time to try.

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It is worst time to try.

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Right.

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It is the worst time to try because the industry is trying to figure itself out.

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Like everybody is asking this question.

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I've been talking.

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I mean, I do this podcast every other week.

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If you look, I mean, I've been doing this for how long did they say?

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I've been doing this eight years.

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We, I just keep doing it.

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I don't know how long it's been, but it's been a long time and I've been interviewing a

lot of people and now everybody is saying the same thing.

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Um, because the industry doesn't know what it's doing and nobody's really buying any

independent stuff.

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Unless it's produced in the house, they don't want to put their name on it.

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Like, yeah.

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So um I don't know the answer to your problem, but I do know that um I do think you should

talk to Virgil Films and I will introduce you and I will have them look at your film or

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you should have them look at your film.

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have no, I mean, I would be shocked if they didn't want to pick it up.

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Then you would be in the uncomfortable position of having to go back to MVD and having

that conversation.

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you know, what do you have to lose?

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No, totally.

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It's whatever's good for the picture.

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Like I love my friend and I, I like MVD, but at the end of the day, it's, it's really just

by getting the legacy of Michael out.

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like by hooker, by crook, whatever that takes, if it's an uncomfortable conversation, kind

of fuck it.

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Like.

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Exactly, exactly.

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That's what it comes down to, right?

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What is best for the production?

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And if you have an opportunity that can move that ball forward, you have to take it.

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So um that's a door that's open to you.

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And I just wanted you to know that.

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And I wanted you to know from me, I've talked to a lot of people, I've seen a lot of

movies.

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um You have a gift and uh you have a gift of storytelling, right?

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You told a story really well.

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and um of a dead guy that nobody knows about.

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And I watched it and went, damn it, I wanna know this guy.

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Like now I wanna go back and watch this movie.

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You know what else?

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I don't even like the shit that Kevin Smith does.

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Now I'm.

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I love it.

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I love it.

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I don't even like that stuff.

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I don't even like, you know, this is not my genre at all.

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But now I'm like, I like Kevin Smith.

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I want to go see what Tusk is all about.

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Like you opened up a whole new world to me.

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So it's kind of like the back door of of worlds that I would never um even be interested

in just because it's not it's not what I would naturally go to.

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And I met people in this film that I

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I was shocked.

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And so you did a good thing.

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So that's what documentaries are supposed to do, right?

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They are supposed to, our desire as filmmakers is to say, you want people to be changed.

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You want people to see your movie and do something.

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You want people to see your movie and feel something.

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I felt something so much, I wanted to talk to you immediately.

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Because I was like, shoot, I want...

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I want to know this guy.

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I immediately wanted to talk to, you know, the people in your movie because I wanted them

to come on my podcast and be like, tell me more about him.

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You know?

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Okay.

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I, I was changed by watching your movie.

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So, know, that's what we all want as filmmakers.

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And so I honestly, that's why I I'm saying like, you won, you won the game.

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Like you.

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That's what we want as filmmakers.

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the end of the day, yes, we want to make our money back.

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But truthfully, what we want is we want to know that our art and what we did made a

difference in this world.

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Changed.

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Yeah.

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Changed somebody or like, you know, you want people to know Michael Parks or want to know

them, right?

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And know him and, and you did it.

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You did it.

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you.

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Thank you.

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I don't mean to embarrass you, but I do mean to encourage you.

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No, I appreciate it.

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does my heart very good.

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Thank you.

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You're welcome.

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All right, now we have a podcast to do.

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Okay, so did you come with a documentary to share?

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ah Yes, I did.

285

Okay, so we have this segment called DocuVu Deja Vu, which we ask people to come and bring

a documentary that they really, really like, that they want our audience to watch.

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um so I'll ask that at the end.

287

Okay, so um I need to pull up your bio, so give me a minute.

288

Actually, we asked for a bio and you didn't give us your bio, you gave us the bio.

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I had to go to your website to find out about you.

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So I'm a.

291

Okay, yeah, it's okay.

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Let me see website.

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I think you're a fascinating person.

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We're gonna talk a lot about you, so get ready for that.

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I know, that's gonna be embarrassing, right?

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um Anti-current production, right?

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I'm gonna go pour myself a glass of water real quick.

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much better behind the camera than in front.

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I apologize in advance.

300

Okay, how is this playing?

301

Where is this playing?

302

I've pulled up your trailer somewhere on my desktop and I can't find it.

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That's quickly after I thought that part was hilarious.

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What's that?

305

sorry.

306

happen.

307

looks good too.

308

Okay, I've got your bio.

309

You're gonna have to read, you know, kind of retell it, but anyway.

310

All right, are you ready?

311

All right, here we go.

312

Hi everybody, welcome to Documentary First.

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uh My name is Christian Taylor.

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I'm your cohost.

315

If you're listening, you know that that is the truth of the story.

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Anyway, I'm not doing our regular.

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uh

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intro because I'm kind of tired of that.

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So anyway, we're going to jump right in.

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Today I have a guest that I'm absolutely delighted to introduce you to.

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His name is Josh Roush.

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He's done an incredible movie called Long Lossome Highway.

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I can't wait to tell everybody about it.

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I watched it yesterday and it's about an actor that I think everybody should know about,

but absolutely nobody does.

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His name is Michael Parks and thanks to Josh.

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I hope that the world will get to know this guy.

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So Josh, thank you so much for being on the show.

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Really glad to have you.

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Thank you for having me.

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I am so excited to do this.

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Yeah, it's really going to be great.

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um You have really, I told you your movie was so inspirational to me.

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I picked up the phone right away and I was like, Hey, can I talk to you?

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uh Your movie did exactly what every filmmaker wants a movie to do.

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It encouraged me to do something, which was pick up the phone and say, Hey dude, I want to

meet Michael Parks.

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uh I want to meet everybody else in your movie because I want them to tell me about

working with Michael Parks.

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And, uh you know, I was really inspired by the work.

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that you did and I'm so grateful to get to talk to you today.

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I'm grateful that you had me on, thanks so much.

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All right, everybody, I'm going to read a little bit about Josh's bio and then I'm going

to just jump right in and we're going to get to know a little bit more about him.

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So if you go to anti-current.com, it's his website, you'll see exactly what I'm about to

read you.

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But he lives in North Hollywood, California.

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He is actually a punk rock filmmaker and everything listed on his site.

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There's a bunch of stuff there you can watch.

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He either wrote, directed, shot, edited,

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colored, composited or sound design.

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Most of the time he did everything all at once, which I asked him and it is true.

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He did all of that for this film, Long Lonesome Highway.

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When he's not working on his own content, he's touring with some of the best punk rock

bands in the business or he's shooting music videos for them.

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He has directed one narrative feature, documentaries and over 30 music videos, several

commercials and quite a bit more.

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So in his young career, he's

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quite accomplished.

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He's yet another artist that we haven't heard about yet, but today I think we will hear a

lot more.

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uh Josh, is that all true?

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Anything changed?

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It seems so self aggrandizing when you write it yourself for your website, but yes, it's

all true.

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That's awesome.

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So I want to know a little more.

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Why don't you take us back?

360

Um, you know, I think it's fascinating for how people got where they are.

361

So tell me where you were born and how you got in this business in the first place.

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um I was born in a little place called Middletown, Ohio.

363

So named because it is placed between Middletown, or between Cincinnati and Dayton,

Middletown.

364

We're a clever group out there.

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uh At 19, uh I got the punk rock itch and moved west, go west young man.

366

I joined a couple of punk rock groups in Orange County, which is like my favorite scene on

the planet.

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uh And then quickly got like disenchanted with the notion of like four sweaty, smelly, big

egos in like a sweat box.

368

And I was like, what, can I do that's a creative endeavor that I don't have to answer to

other people too?

369

And I chose filmmaking and come to find out it is a creative process.

370

So now I just do everything myself.

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So did you go to school or did you just teach yourself?

372

I did go to Cal State Fullerton for the film program, but honestly, you know, if I had it

to do over, I wouldn't.

373

I learned a lot.

374

Don't get me wrong, but I learned twice as much, you know, boots on the ground, like being

PAs or, you know, anything, honestly.

375

well, that's what Ken Burns said in his introduction.

376

I say this all, I say this again all the time.

377

When I decided to start my documentary, I knew nothing, did not go to school.

378

I was an actress, still an actress, but I thought, you know, I'm gonna do this

documentary.

379

How hard can it be?

380

I'll just watch, you know, Ken Burns' masterclass.

381

And in the introduction, he basically was like, you know, just do it.

382

Just get out there and do it, you know, forget film class.

383

You just need to do it.

384

Film class is good and helpful, but you really learn by doing.

385

Yeah, and I mean, just watch the things you love.

386

I mean, you know, mimic a style until you invent your own style.

387

Mm-hmm.

388

Yeah, that's right.

389

So what are you most proud of?

390

Oh God, mean, Wrong Reasons, my narrative feature, I'm very, very proud of because like

between writing to putting it out the door, I think it was like a 10 year journey and it's

391

a giant love letter to punk rock.

392

But really, I think I'm the most proud over this documentary just because like I get to

put a light on my friend who's passed away.

393

Yeah, yeah.

394

So let's just jump right in.

395

You took us to that.

396

So this documentary, Long Lonesome Highway, uh it is a story about an actor named Michael

Parks who did pass away.

397

And it is a tribute to everything he was.

398

And when I called you yesterday, I called because it so resonated with me that I told you

that I

399

just recently lost my mom.

400

um And I was so touched that you as a young man spent time with Michael at his end of his

life and had the ability to see um beyond his crustiness and his, know, uh prickliness uh

401

to see the richness of his soul.

402

and that you, um even though it was difficult, you were able to uh mine and appreciate who

this man was.

403

And not only that, take the mantle of his life to share it with the world.

404

And I just was so impressed with that because more than your movie, I think I want people

to hear that, um

405

You took this on as a passion project and you took this on with your own money.

406

I heard with your own time and there's a lot of filmmakers out there who wonder if that's,

you know, if they should do it.

407

And maybe you wondered that.

408

And I, I just want to say, I feel like what you did was worth it.

409

It was worth the time and it was worth the money.

410

And, um, anyway.

411

Just wanted to say that.

412

Well, we tried to get this off the ground several times before we eventually had luck with

it.

413

Because Michael, you know, he was a dear friend of mine, a sweet man, huge pain, excuse

me, pain in the ass.

414

He wanted like 25 K to do it.

415

And I was just like, buddy, like, that's not how documentaries work.

416

We're celebrating your legacy.

417

It's bigger than money is like, show me the bottom line.

418

I'm like, all right, so I actually found the money and like we were getting it off the

ground.

419

And about that point,

420

The financier got busted dealing some kind of drug that was like legal, but it was a very

gray area and he went to federal pen So that went away.

421

So I ended up just having to pick up the pieces and do it myself after he passed.

422

Wow, that's fascinating.

423

So um you met him.

424

Tell me how long you've been working on this film.

425

um It's been about 10 years from soup to not yeah, it's been about 10 years um A lot of

that time was spent, you know, I'll just address the elephant in the room Quentin

426

Tarantino is not in the film We you know, we shot this during kovat.

427

So like it was always a question It was always told to us when not if we get Tarantino ah

and through

428

talk about why Quentin Tarantino is uh pivotal here and why you needed him.

429

um Tarantino once said that Michael Parks was his was the greatest living actor on the

planet.

430

So he put him in a ton of productions.

431

They were very good friends.

432

They actually like shot pool together for Tarantino even had a name for himself.

433

ah But um where was I going with that?

434

I'm sorry.

435

were saying that you couldn't get him in the film and you were waiting to get him in the

film.

436

And why was he pivotal to this?

437

So we kept kicking the can down the road or he kept kicking the can down the road of his

involvement.

438

And eventually, you know, lawyer's fees piled up and we just had to get it out the door.

439

Like we just had to call it.

440

It's like, you know, we wanted you to be part.

441

So sorry you're not.

442

It's all good.

443

And we just had to move on without him.

444

Unfortunately.

445

I agree.

446

I fully agree.

447

um And, you know, nobody was none too happy about it.

448

But unfortunately, at some point you just got to get off.

449

oh

450

yeah, that's true.

451

And you know, you were able to bring what he said in there because Michael said it himself

and Michael did talk about, uh in fact, you know, he was the one that discovered his

452

writing, right?

453

I think, went way, way, way back when and said he was a good writer and uh that was an

interesting connection.

454

And so, uh

455

done anything, he doesn't know everything is what he said.

456

Yeah.

457

yeah.

458

So, um so, you know, he was in there.

459

And so, you know, you were saying it was 10 years it took you.

460

um So tell me when he passed.

461

Oh god, I'm so bad at dates, everything's just a big blur in my life.

462

I wanna say it was 2014, I wanna guess, but yeah.

463

you were working with him.

464

And Kevin Smith is the director of Tusk.

465

And he had put Michael Parks in that film because Kevin Smith had learned to love Michael

Parks.

466

Yeah, from Quentin's movies.

467

I was actually on Tusk as a behind the scenes like kind of filmmaker.

468

Excuse me as a behind the scenes, like kind of documentarian on the movie.

469

And, you know, it became quickly apparent that Michael was not in good health and, you

know, he had suffered some brain damage from a big fall.

470

So ah they needed somebody to just kind of babysit him, for lack of a better term.

471

ah And, you know, it just it started out as just this young, angry punk rocker in this old

curmudgeon.

472

sitting in a trailer, kind of not really digging each other.

473

And then he just like started singing to me one day.

474

And I was like, I looked around, I'm like, you're not I'm the only person here.

475

And he just keeps singing to me.

476

And I'm just like, that's an old Johnny Cash tune.

477

He's like, you like cash?

478

knew cash.

479

I'm like, go on, like, continue, please.

480

Yep, 100%.

481

And then you come to find out he knew Lenny Bruce, he knew Martin Luther King and like,

like not just knew he was friends with these people, like some

482

like movers and shakers of like the 60s and 70s and I mean just culture in general.

483

But like, you know, the second you tell me you know those kind of people, I'm just

enamored.

484

Yeah.

485

Yeah, that's what I loved about you.

486

I could tell right away you were a curious guy.

487

It doesn't surprise me that, you you're like, what?

488

Because um that was what was so interesting about him.

489

He was not at all um braggadocious and he was not going to let his ego really, he wanted

you to recognize.

490

uh

491

who he was without being showy, you know?

492

um

493

try to draw you in and like a way he'd be like, Oh, yeah, me and my buddy Lenny.

494

And I'm just like, wait, San Francisco, like, you mean Lenny Bruce?

495

He's like, I said Lenny, weren't you listening to me?

496

It's just like, dude, like, humble brag, but like, draw you in like

497

think that's what's so interesting about him because if you had not stopped to listen or

if you were not curious, all of that would have gone by.

498

I guess maybe I've worked now with World War II filmmakers.

499

If people listen, they know.

500

And I sit there and they're 100 years old.

501

And so when they say something that they've been here or been there or done this, you

know, 90 years ago, I'm like, what?

502

You know, and it's fascinating.

503

You're sitting there realizing, my gosh, I have live history here.

504

Somebody can tell me this.

505

Tell me more.

506

I can't read that in a book.

507

Yes, you had a wonderful opportunity.

508

You were living with history.

509

Yeah, and I, you know, you said something on the phone call yesterday that I very much

agree with.

510

We're very dismissive of older people a lot of the time.

511

Like we don't take the time to listen or care or it's just like, okay, old man, like, you

know, move on.

512

And, know, I just, think that's so stupid because like they have so much life experience

and like I I'm 40, I don't know shit still like, you know, please teach me all you can.

513

Yeah.

514

Well, so keep going.

515

mean, he's saying to you and I did hear in the film, you say, you know, we, kind of didn't

like each other and he didn't like you either.

516

So it started to make that turn when he started singing to you.

517

And so keep going.

518

Yeah, and then you know just slowly I'd pull these stories out of them and you know like I

said He wasn't in the best mental health at the time So it was you had to really sit and

519

lean into it and pay attention But you know then he'd start just giving me second third

hand recollections of like James Dean and just all these actors and all these Producers

520

and directors and artists and musicians like that just meant the absolute world to me

521

And like, I think because he recognized that I recognized good talent, like not just him,

but like other people, it kind of lowered his like wall a little bit.

522

And he kind of let me in to the point to where like, you know, I became the person.

523

don't think we talked about it in the doc, but I'd have to sneak him whiskey on set.

524

So like, you know, I'd, I'd, I'd distract Kevin over here, go to the liquor store, fill up

his, his coffee cup.

525

And then I'd have to like ply him before he'd go on stage.

526

Hilarious.

527

Yeah, he was was ornery.

528

Well, um it's so, yeah, that's so interesting because I remember in the doc, he did say,

he did remark about you, know, something about how he really liked you or you were a good

529

guy or something.

530

He made some positive comment about you.

531

Yes, that's true.

532

That's true.

533

What did he mean by that?

534

Um, I, is just something funny to say in the moment because the walrus is all scarred up

in the movie and stuff.

535

He'd always say to me like, why are you, where'd you get all that shit on your jacket?

536

I'm like, I don't know old man.

537

Why are you so curmudgeonly?

538

Like.

539

I you had the sweetest relationship.

540

We did.

541

mean, yeah, like I would literally just go over to his house and just sit and chill with

them and listen to stories.

542

And then inevitably we'd go get margaritas or something.

543

uh I think I helped him move house three or four times, like from different like rental

units.

544

Like you'd get a deal on a rental unit than a new deal three months later.

545

So we'd have to take all this crap and put it in the other one.

546

uh He, he, meant the world to me.

547

I wouldn't have done that for everybody.

548

So how long were you friends with him then before he passed?

549

And then when did you decide I'm going to make a documentary?

550

I mean, I think I just, I think I had the idea probably during tusk.

551

Like it was probably the, the, the genesis of the idea, but I don't think I tried to do

anything about it until we came back home and we hung out another couple of times.

552

Like he would call me up and you know, what are doing kid?

553

Come on over.

554

And like, so it was probably during one of those sit down coffees or margaritas or beers

or whatever we were into that week.

555

that I actually approached him with the idea and he was all about it and he's like, as

long as I get paid.

556

And I'm like, my God, what are you doing to me?

557

so funny.

558

Well, you know, it sounds like to me, I mean, in this doc, you brought in his son, which

was really and I think it was his daughter or a stepdaughter.

559

Adopted daughter.

560

Yeah.

561

Yeah.

562

um in pushing along the story, particularly his son.

563

I didn't get until later in the film that he was actually an actor as well, because I

didn't know him.

564

And I didn't understand that his father really had kind of led him down that road.

565

That was really neat to see.

566

um And, you know, it was um a kind of a beautiful relationship that began to develop

between the two of them.

567

And I'm sure he

568

his son was helpful to you in telling the story,

569

Yeah, Trisha, you know, his daughter was just the ultimate cheerleader and she still is

like she reshares everything I do, everything I post.

570

The whole family are just sweethearts of human beings.

571

James and I, like, I don't think we knew how to deal with each other at first because,

like, he is his actual son.

572

But like, I'm almost in this adopted grandfatherly kind of thing.

573

But all it took was like a few drinks and just talking shit on his dad.

574

And we immediately were just like, OK, cool.

575

Like, we love each other.

576

And since then he started my movie, Wrong Reasons.

577

Yeah.

578

know, it sounds like, mean, I've been doing a little bit of research, but you've kind of

got this family of people that have been doing projects together and it kind of just got

579

Kevin Smith and now you've got James.

580

And you and there's other people in this little family.

581

ah So tell me how all that came together.

582

I mean, I started as a fan of Kevin 15 years ago, something like that.

583

Probably God more than that.

584

Time is just not linear to me.

585

It all just meshes together.

586

But I started as a fan.

587

I go, I would go to poker nights.

588

If you bought like 300 bucks in merch, cause he's always selling his face on stupid

products.

589

You could play poker with them.

590

So like I got in and everybody was like infatuated with them to kind of like this kind of

crazy level.

591

And I was just like making a lot of money playing poker and like, so I keep going back.

592

And I think I did that like seven or eight times.

593

And eventually he's like, man, you're a really big fan.

594

I'm like, look at my chip stack right now, dude.

595

Like I am a big fan, but like, I'm kind of making coin over here.

596

I think that impressed him.

597

And eventually a guy named JC Reifenberg was shooting his podcasts.

598

And there was like a Twitter call like, Hey, you know, can anybody come run a camera?

599

So I started doing crowd camera on a lot of his podcasts.

600

And then that became me actually running one of his podcasts.

601

And then that became me doing the behind the scenes on his movies.

602

And it just kind of like, I mean, I've worked with Kevin in so many capacities.

603

I was his daughter's bodyguard for two years.

604

Like, yeah, like just, you so you need something done, call Josh.

605

But.

606

And so that then that kind of leads to, know, let's do projects together, I suppose.

607

Truly, yeah.

608

like, you know, he's always like, he was the king of the DVD, the Blu-ray.

609

So he always loved having a lot of behind the scenes.

610

So I became the, like, because those bonus features and documentaries on movies I love,

you know, meant so much to me.

611

I was like, hey, can I take that role now that the old guy kind of moved on?

612

And that is what led me into feature length stuff.

613

Okay, okay.

614

Well, that's wonderful.

615

mean, gosh, your poker playing really helped you with your film career.

616

And I'm not even that good, it's just that they were that bad.

617

That's pretty awesome.

618

That's great.

619

I love it.

620

Well, it's so interesting because everybody's path to filmmaking is different.

621

That's what that shows you.

622

You and it also shows you, um you just have to take risks and follow opportunity, um you

know, where it is because you just, you just really never know.

623

um I'm sure he's been a big fan and a big help of what you're doing as well.

624

Yeah.

625

Oh yeah, for sure.

626

He's I mean, he did help finance long lonesome highway.

627

He's Kevin is like just, you know, I talk shit about him because he's a good friend.

628

And if I if I don't talk shit about somebody, then I probably don't like you.

629

But like he is just like the best dude on the planet, the most generous, the sweetest,

lends his name out more importantly, like which is, you know, big in this industry.

630

Yeah, I can't say enough good things about the boy.

631

That's awesome.

632

That's awesome.

633

The best ones usually are the best ones usually are.

634

Okay.

635

So, you know, you decided that you're going to make this movie.

636

couldn't get Quentin Tarantino.

637

So you decide you're going to move it along.

638

uh Michael wants 25 K to make this movie.

639

You're like, I can't really do this.

640

So, um, you, you really can't get started until after he passes.

641

Okay.

642

So he passes now you're like, okay, I can do this movie now.

643

Your movie has a lot of, um it has a lot of archival, like a lot of photos, really,

really, really cool photos.

644

I loved the archival photos of him.

645

Just very, yeah, great archival.

646

You've got great movie clips, just super, super awesome stuff, which, I mean, that

archival is not easy, particularly if you don't have an arch producer.

647

So how did all that happen?

648

Thank God for fair use in the United States.

649

I'll say that we got Donaldson and Calif.

650

think we're our lawyers and like they're the name and fair use.

651

So, you know, it was so weird because like we finished this project like probably eight

years ago, seven years ago, and we were, you know, waiting on Tarantino to add him to the

652

documentary.

653

Never got him.

654

When we decided we had to move on, we had to re clear everything with the lawyers.

655

So that was a brand new lawyer bill and stuff.

656

And in the process, it kind of worked out better because some of the photos, I guess the

photo rights in the United States for fair use have changed.

657

So they're less liable to clear you for fair use if it's a photo than it is if it's a

clip.

658

So a lot of the photos of Lew Wasserman that were in the original edit became clips, like

with him on stage with like Alfred Hitchcock, because like more sources had become

659

available from the Academy and stuff like that.

660

So like it really kind of worked in our benefit from like a movie making perspective.

661

to have waited that time.

662

Cause like a lot of the photos got subbed out with like real clips.

663

ah But yeah, like I just bought everything Michael Parks on eBay, on Amazon, on like

bootleg DVD websites, ripped everything myself, up converted it as much as possible.

664

ah Does that answer your question?

665

so why don't you tell our listeners about fair use?

666

Because that can be very confusing and difficult to understand.

667

Sure.

668

Fair use is basically implied in the Constitution that anything that is relevant in our

culture can be used to comment on.

669

So we can comment on that thing.

670

So we can reuse a piece of media, be that a movie or whatever, as long as we're talking

about why it's uh unique or interesting or transformative in our culture.

671

Right, but there are limits to that.

672

So what are the limits?

673

Well, I mean, I'm not a lawyer, so don't take me completely literally, but it's usually

like under 30 seconds.

674

You have to have somebody talking about why, like you have to transform the piece and talk

about why it's culturally relevant or socially relevant to it.

675

So you can't just like throw in a Michael Parks clip.

676

You have to have somebody talking about his role in that thing or why he's an actor making

those choices in that clip kind of.

677

Yeah.

678

Yeah, you did have a lot uh of his stuff in there.

679

So basically what you're saying is you really didn't have to pay for the archival that you

were using.

680

There was a few photos that we had to pay rights for because Lou Wasserman's family, I

heard, were particularly litigious.

681

But other than that, like, yeah, we didn't really pay for very many clips at all.

682

Yeah.

683

another thing I noticed was there wasn't a lot of music or you didn't rely a lot on, on

soundtrack or music, right?

684

Talk to me about what you decided to do where music was concerned.

685

Well, my buddy, Cam Massavi and scores everything I've ever done.

686

We're in a band together called empire.

687

Um, and he's just like one of my nearest and dearest.

688

So he did the score for this as well as like wrong reasons and all the other stuff.

689

Um, so there is like a little bit of music through line, but music gets kind of like

crunchy when it comes to fair use, like they're very, very litigious and they'll come

690

after you in a heartbeat.

691

So

692

We used a couple tracks of Michael's because he had like six albums and

693

let's talk about that.

694

mean, he was, he was a singer.

695

You talked about, he sang to you in his, in your trailer.

696

I was so shocked to hear that he was also a singer.

697

mean, that's just amazing.

698

Yeah, he was he was a man of all seasons, like he could literally do anything.

699

And he would like, just get real silent and still and then look at you and then just like

recite like uh poetry right into your face.

700

Like it was really intimidating and weird and beautiful.

701

And like, I've never met a creature like this on the on the planet.

702

Yeah.

703

eh

704

great.

705

Yeah, so you did use some of his stuff, but briefly really.

706

Yeah, yeah.

707

I mean, if we would have had a budget, this would have been a whole different documentary.

708

This was just doing the best we could with what we had.

709

Well, I mean, I will tell you, you know, your and your your budget was you want to say

what your budget was?

710

It was 40 that ended up being about 50 after we went through lawyers fees a second time.

711

Yeah, so I mean, it's impressive, really, really impressive that you made this film for

that amount of money.

712

You know, I've been talking to my distributor and he's telling us these days, do not make

anything over $200,000 if you want to see any profit.

713

And you know, it's tough even at 50K to see any profit.

714

I know that because I've been trying to make a profit on my film and I spent over 500K and

it's taken me, you know,

715

eight years to see profit from anything.

716

still not there.

717

it's really amazing that you made this film with that little money.

718

so kudos to you for that.

719

Thank you.

720

Yeah.

721

I mean, you know, of course I want, you know, Kevin to get his money back and I want to

get my money back.

722

But profit was never the motivation for this.

723

I knew that it's probably never going to make any money.

724

Like when we came out last month on DVD, the distributor was just like, how much do you

want to sell it for?

725

was like the bare minimum.

726

Like, like, what will you let me sell this for?

727

So I think it's on Amazon for like ten dollars and eighty one cents because they were just

like, what are you doing?

728

I was just like, it's not about that.

729

I mean, I know it should be, but it's not for me.

730

Like I just want, you know, if that two, three bucks extra is like gonna make a

difference, if somebody buys it, sell it cheaper.

731

I could give a damn.

732

a torn it, please steal my movie.

733

Like I'm happy with.

734

Yeah, it's a great film actually.

735

um And can anyone stream it yet?

736

Are you still working on that?

737

Still working on that.

738

think at the end of the month it'll probably come out to SVOD, AVOD, all the like ad-based

or you you can probably purchase it on Amazon and iTunes for $9.99 or something like that.

739

well, we're gonna help with that if we can.

740

So, hopefully we can get to that.

741

Well, em you know, I always ask filmmakers, em is there anything you would like to talk

about that, like, I haven't asked you?

742

Like, what behind the scenes stories em would you like to share?

743

Or what was the most difficult thing that you overcame?

744

Or what are the thing you're most proud about in this film?

745

I mean, thing I'm most proud about is just that we got it out the door and that I think it

does a service to Michael's legacy.

746

What I would like to talk about is that I hate that I'm in it.

747

Like I suck in front of a camera.

748

Like I suck on this interview.

749

I'm so good behind the camera.

750

The second you put one in front of me, I'm garbage.

751

But I screened an early cut of this where I'm not involved in it to a guy named Scott

Moser.

752

He directed or he produced a documentary called

753

a band called death, which is a fantastic punk rock documentary.

754

But he was Kevin's producer for like years and years.

755

And I screened it for him.

756

He was just like, it's not great, dude.

757

He's like, why do I care about this?

758

You're just showing clips of this old guy.

759

I need a through line to connect me to the person.

760

He's like, you need to be in it.

761

I'm like, the f#&% I do like I wrong guy, wrong guy is just like, look, if you're not in

it, I don't care.

762

He's like, get over yourself and put yourself in it.

763

ah So I had to.

764

Listen, you were talking to a woman who said the exact same thing about her film.

765

And I'm going to say that I completely agree with him.

766

You are wrong about yourself.

767

You are, you are fantastic here because you know why you're you, you're you, you're nobody

else.

768

And you're intriguing and you're interesting because you're you, you're not trying to be

anybody else.

769

And in that film, um, you know, it did take me a while to figure out, oh Hey, wait a

minute.

770

It's this guy, it's this guy that decided to make this film because he saw something in

Michael Parks.

771

It took me a while to figure it out, but by the end I was like, I've got it.

772

And then I was like, wow.

773

So he was right.

774

But here's the thing, there's a line in La La Land and then people laugh at me when I

bring this up.

775

La La Land is one of my favorite movies, shame to admit it, but it's true.

776

La La Land was the inspiration for my film, The Girl Who Wore Freedom, which is a World

War II documentary, makes no sense, except there's this wonderful line in there where um

777

Mia is telling Sebastian, know, initially that she hates jazz, you know, and he's like,

what, you hate jazz?

778

You know, basically she doesn't know what jazz is.

779

In the end, you know, he goes and joins this band, which is really new jazz.

780

And she asks him, you know, why are you doing this?

781

don't you, you know, love jazz?

782

And he's like, well, you don't even like jazz.

783

And she goes, I do like jazz.

784

I like jazz because you like jazz.

785

You made me like jazz.

786

know, you people like jazz because you love jazz, you know, and it's true.

787

Like when we have a passion about something and we share our passion with other people, it

makes other people love it.

788

It's just, it's because, you know, we can see through your eyes.

789

And that's what happened in this movie.

790

I was able to see through your eyes uh this wonderful person.

791

And that would not have happened if you took yourself out, really, because we would not

have been able to see what you see.

792

You saw something special.

793

But the thing is, you know, that's the thing.

794

We have to get beyond that.

795

And the only way that I know that is I'm a voiceover actor as well.

796

And so I started off being the same thing.

797

Oh, I sound terrible.

798

I'm awful.

799

I'm the same way in front of a camera.

800

I suck.

801

I look terrible.

802

I can't do this.

803

What we're doing is we have this idea of who we are or who we should be or what we should

look like.

804

And we're judging ourselves from the outside and thinking that other people are judging

us.

805

And what I saw in that movie is that I saw a young man who has a tender heart, who

appreciates, has the ability to appreciate a man that other people did not.

806

And for me in this life, that is what is valuable.

807

And you know, what's so amazing about Michael Parks and what I learned is that

808

He was a man before his time.

809

That's the thing.

810

What happened in this film, what we learned is he was this amazing actor, like Quentin

Tarantino said, but he blew up his acting career because he told his amazing agent to take

811

a hike and he didn't want to make this certain movie.

812

And so he got this reputation of being difficult to deal with, didn't get cast during the

most castable time in his life.

813

And he had this reputation.

814

Now these days, right?

815

People want that spirit.

816

They want that fight.

817

They want that individuality.

818

He's an overcomer.

819

That's why at the second stage of his life, he began to be wanted because he was thinking

for himself.

820

All of these actors now who've become directors or producers or whatever, it's commonplace

because they don't want to be thought as actors that are just told to do something.

821

They have a brain.

822

They have a point of view.

823

They have...

824

and they want to have say.

825

And that's where we've come in our society.

826

He was just ahead of his time.

827

Yeah, I mean I wanted the movie as a whole to be an exercise and like, you know, if you're

gonna do it your own way, there can be consequences.

828

Because like, you know, I, you know, I worked at Sony for nine years and I was just like,

I can't do corporate anymore.

829

I got to get out of this.

830

And like I started making films and stuff my own way.

831

But I'll probably never be hugely commercially successful because I'm doing it my own way.

832

I refuse to like cater and

833

do all the crap that like, you know, most people usually get behind to be successful.

834

And I'm just like, I'd rather just have a, like a low threshold of success and, and eke by

an existence and do it my way.

835

So I think I saw a lot of that in him.

836

Yeah.

837

know, truthfully, what you're saying there is, what do I value in life?

838

Right?

839

At some point, you made a decision of what was most important to you and looked at what

the world decides as success and decides, you know what?

840

I don't want that.

841

I want a different quality of life and I want to enjoy my life.

842

And I'm going to try to do the best I can.

843

And that may mean I'm successful and it may not, but I'm going to be happy while I'm doing

it.

844

And, you know, I do think that, I hope in society, you know, that we can begin to be more

like that.

845

mean, Michael Parks did that.

846

He accepted the consequences of that.

847

And what was so fascinating is that there were lots of consequences in his life.

848

Like for, I mean, it was.

849

crazy to me.

850

He lost his brother.

851

He lost a child.

852

He lost a wife.

853

He had such incredible loss.

854

He lost a career.

855

This guy.

856

Yeah.

857

So he suffered so much loss.

858

And then at one point near the end of his life, he lost his body.

859

Like he had a huge accident and lost.

860

I he was, I mean, in a coma and his body was broken, you know,

861

I mean, this guy was an overcomer.

862

You know, I wrote this down.

863

He was true to himself and, but he had a rich life.

864

He was a man before his time, you know, and, and like you hear you've Kurt Russell in your

movie saying like Kurt Russell talking about this dude, how he looked up to him and Kurt

865

Russell's son.

866

who else do you have?

867

Jason, uh, Justin, Justin.

868

long, yeah.

869

Long talking about.

870

I think that was hilarious.

871

Justin Long's relationship to him was similar to yours, right?

872

truly.

873

Yeah, none of us knew how to handle him when he came to us because like, know, he's, he's

a legend in a lot of people's eyes, but also like, he was, man, he was hard to have a

874

conversation with because of the brain trauma.

875

ah And that came across as a lot of aggressiveness from him for a little bit.

876

Like, you can see it in the outtakes of Tusk, like, what the f#&% is the line?

877

Like he really kind of that poor script supervisor, man, like I should stand afterwards.

878

I was like, buddy, he did the Lord's work, man.

879

You got through it.

880

Yeah.

881

It's like, thank you for saying that.

882

Well, you know, he was so accomplished at memorizing lines and, I mean, he was so

accomplished at character stuff.

883

And I can imagine how frustrating it must have been for him to not have that capacity

anymore.

884

Truly, truly.

885

doing that work, and we talked about it in the doc, really kind of pulled him out of that

stupor and brought him back to like, I'd price 60, 70 % capacity, which, you know, for a

886

guy like that is still gotta be hard, but like, you could get the stories out of them lot

easier.

887

could like, he'd sing a lot clearer.

888

was really unique to see somebody kind of overcoming brain trauma in real time.

889

Like, you don't get

890

No, I mean, that's I'm saying.

891

He was a incredible lesson in so many ways if you stop to look at his life.

892

And that's what I thought was so interesting in your film.

893

And you look at his life and you're like, holy shit.

894

If you stop to look at what he overcame, he could have quit at so many places.

895

Yeah.

896

quit life, could have taken his life, he could have quit working, he could have blown up

and maybe there were phases where he did not function well in relationships or whatever,

897

I'm sure, he's human.

898

But he got back up, he got back up on that horse or he got back up on that motorcycle, he

kept riding, right?

899

And I just think there's just so much to love.

900

I'm gonna end with this, my favorite thing and you started with it,

901

and you ended with it was what he said.

902

The five stages of an actor.

903

That was brilliant.

904

Brilliant.

905

I mean, we didn't have a lot of footage of the man.

906

So that podcast became so crucial.

907

And I was in the audience for that podcast as a fan that day.

908

So like I knew the content was there, uh which is a reason that I go back to it a lot.

909

But yeah, he.

910

don't mind, I'm going to play that on our podcast.

911

I would love to play some little clips.

912

I'm not even gonna say what the five stages of an actor are because I wanna play it, but

it's so powerful as an actress because it's so true.

913

But it's not just about an actor.

914

It's almost just about anybody in the creative field, really.

915

And if you...

916

If you, as a creative person...

917

live for that.

918

I don't think you'll live.

919

Yeah, truly.

920

because I don't think that you can live your life trying to achieve the five stages of an

actor.

921

And I really don't because he really, he didn't.

922

Yep, agreed.

923

He didn't make those five stages really.

924

Yeah, I just want to leave behind some cool stuff when I depart and I think he was the

same way.

925

Yeah, well, he left a lot of cool stuff behind and you you're 40.

926

You're 40 and you are no, I'm about to be 59 in December.

927

I can't even say those words, but

928

I'm a very hard 40.

929

It's been a rough one.

930

Well, you've got a lot of years ahead of you, I hope, and I hope you will keep making

movies.

931

And I...

932

you enough for having me on this has been spectacular and anytime I get a chance to shine

a light shine a light on Michael.

933

I really I am appreciative.

934

Well, we are gonna shine a light on him.

935

I want other people to know who he is.

936

yeah, if you guys get a chance, please, you know, you gotta see this movie.

937

So we're gonna find a way, we're gonna put links here underneath, you know, our comments.

938

We're gonna share things on social media.

939

Hopefully, you know, you can reshare them too.

940

Hopefully you'll get some of the people in your film to reshare them too.

941

That will help us.

942

Yeah, so we'll try to get the word out there.

943

Thank you so much.

944

Yeah, you're welcome.

945

Super nice to meet you.

946

Now we have to do one other thing.

947

It's our favorite segment.

948

It's called DocuView Deja Vu.

949

All right, in this segment, we ask our guests to bring a documentary to share with people.

950

So think about a documentary that you like that you think our listeners or viewers, if

they're watching, should see.

951

burden of dreams by Werner Herzog, because it is a man against nature, man against self,

man against society, um, just, just overcoming the stupidest of self-imposed, situations

952

because, and, just refusing to give up in the, in the face of everything going wrong at

once.

953

Um, I think it's just a testament to like what creative can be.

954

while also showcasing how stupid it can be.

955

And Verne Herzog is a god to me.

956

anything I am is great.

957

Well, I've never heard of that.

958

So thank you very much for that recommendation.

959

All right, everybody.

960

You've heard it from Josh.

961

Got to make sure you check it out.

962

All right, everybody.

963

Thank you so much for listening to Documentary First, where we believe everybody has a

story to tell, and you can be the one to tell it.

964

Bye, everybody.

965

Sorry, I clam up so much.

966

No, you did great.

967

You did great.

968

You did great.

969

And we're gonna, we'll do little magic clips.

970

called, so we'll pull them out for social media and we'll share those.

971

I don't know.

972

One thing I wanted to ask you is how difficult was it to get, you know, Kurt Russell and

Justin Long and people like that to be in your doc?

973

Easy, it was so easy.

974

They loved him so much.

975

um And that's the infuriating part.

976

Like I shot Kurt Russell on the set of Once Upon a Time in Hollywood as Tarantino was like

100 feet away shooting something else.

977

And I was just like, can we just not grab him real quick?

978

And they're like, no, he's busy.

979

So I so we're off the record, right?

980

There was a situation where Kevin's daughter was in Once Upon a Time in America.

981

And it was a favor cast like they put her in it.

982

So he goes to the premiere.

983

He's in the front row.

984

People are dying to see this movie and he's in the Hollywood premiere for it.

985

He falls asleep in his seat.

986

Open mouth snoring.

987

It is largely suspected that that is the reason that like there was a kind of breakup

between the camps.

988

uh So I kind of suffered as a result of not my doing.

989

Oh no.

990

So they don't talk anymore, huh?

991

No, they never were buddies per se, but like they were friendly when they saw each other.

992

Yeah, it really hit the production hard, but it is what it is.

993

Palmer.

994

Okay, so but the other people, they're like, sure, we'll do it.

995

100%.

996

The second they heard it was about Michael, like they came running.

997

Like it was really easy.

998

Well, do you think that you could get them to come on and talk about him here?

999

I can hit Justin up for sure.

01:07:15,605 --> 01:07:17,267

That's an easy request.

01:07:17,267 --> 01:07:18,879

Genesis is an easy request.

01:07:18,879 --> 01:07:22,312

Kurt is harder because it was like a string of handlers.

01:07:23,594 --> 01:07:25,116

Wyatt, I can try.

01:07:25,116 --> 01:07:26,737

I know he's doing Marvel movies now.

01:07:26,737 --> 01:07:32,383

So like he was a lot easier to get back in the day like eight years ago than now, but I'm

happy to try.

01:07:32,600 --> 01:07:41,552

Cause it would be fun to have Wyatt and Justin and Genesis maybe, know, just have one with

everybody where they talk about working with him.

01:07:41,693 --> 01:07:50,835

And if we could do that, then we would have two episodes to talk about the movie where

then everybody can share that twice.

01:07:50,835 --> 01:07:59,705

And then you have, you know, a higher like then have higher profile people who then could

share it on their social media.

01:07:59,705 --> 01:08:08,421

I mean, Haley, uh Justin and Genesis would be the perfect trifecta because they were all

in Tusk and they all had the exact same experience.

01:08:08,421 --> 01:08:10,616

So I'll try to put that together for you.

01:08:10,616 --> 01:08:22,266

you really could, and you could be on it as well, truthfully, um what I'm trying to do is,

um what I'm trying to do is give the movie more air time, really.

01:08:22,266 --> 01:08:28,971

And um I just think we can do that with them and then they can share it and then just

more.

01:08:29,111 --> 01:08:36,014

And then um after this, I'm going to send an email to Joe.

01:08:36,014 --> 01:08:37,418

I'm writing this down.

01:08:37,538 --> 01:08:39,039

to introduce you.

01:08:39,758 --> 01:08:48,644

And I'm going to yeah, if you don't mind, I'm going to send the Vimeo link and the

password, if that's OK.

01:08:48,644 --> 01:08:51,843

um And.

01:08:51,843 --> 01:08:52,903

people could steal this movie.

01:08:52,903 --> 01:08:55,019

I'd be fine with it

01:08:55,019 --> 01:08:56,349

I really hope you can talk to him.

01:08:56,349 --> 01:09:02,078

Yeah, and I'm here for you.

01:09:02,078 --> 01:09:03,794

I am cheering you on.

01:09:03,794 --> 01:09:07,066

And you know, there's anything I can ever do for you.

01:09:07,066 --> 01:09:08,246

I would love to.

01:09:08,271 --> 01:09:10,902

You're incredibly sweet and incredibly kind person.

01:09:10,902 --> 01:09:14,433

And even just that call yesterday, like lit up my world.

01:09:14,433 --> 01:09:16,173

Coring is not always easy.

01:09:16,173 --> 01:09:18,314

Like there's a lot, you're never home.

01:09:18,314 --> 01:09:21,515

You're not talking to like, it's, it's a whole different career for me.

01:09:21,515 --> 01:09:25,917

So getting that phone call yesterday was just the sweetest thing on the phone.

01:09:25,917 --> 01:09:27,077

Thank you.

01:09:27,957 --> 01:09:29,198

God, not soon enough.

01:09:29,198 --> 01:09:34,339

The answer two weeks, I think it'll be a solid four weeks on the road.

01:09:34,339 --> 01:09:35,020

Okay.

01:09:35,020 --> 01:09:37,659

So, and what do you do when you get home?

01:09:37,659 --> 01:09:40,981

ah When I get home, I'll probably get back to writing my next feature.

01:09:40,981 --> 01:09:53,591

ah So what they say there's five kinds of storytelling, uh man versus man, man versus

nature, man versus self, man versus society, sorry, four.

01:09:53,599 --> 01:10:04,345

I want to do a movie for under a hundred thousand shot in one restaurant where you are

like each table is a version of that individual story.

01:10:04,345 --> 01:10:11,461

and there will be some little overlaps, kind of Jim Jarmusch-y, small, but really

elegantly shot kind of idea.

01:10:11,461 --> 01:10:13,454

Yeah.

01:10:14,137 --> 01:10:15,615

One low-feection movie.

01:10:15,615 --> 01:10:21,002

if you get to a point where you're ready, I would be happy to help you.

01:10:21,237 --> 01:10:21,673

okay.

01:10:21,673 --> 01:10:22,668

Hell yeah.

01:10:22,958 --> 01:10:25,878

Seriously, I'm a producer, obviously.

01:10:26,018 --> 01:10:32,018

And so that's kind of my thing, producer, director, all that sort of stuff.

01:10:32,018 --> 01:10:38,438

I can also, whatever you need, I can also be voiceover and actor.

01:10:38,438 --> 01:10:40,218

I got all of that stuff.

01:10:40,238 --> 01:10:44,378

So I will send you a link for my film.

01:10:45,438 --> 01:10:47,385

I wrote it as well.

01:10:47,385 --> 01:10:48,347

What kind of link is it?

01:10:48,347 --> 01:10:49,069

Can I download it?

01:10:49,069 --> 01:10:50,503

Because the wifi on the bus sucks.

01:10:50,503 --> 01:10:52,302

Like we can't stream anything.

01:10:52,302 --> 01:10:55,542

Um, yes, actually, where can you download it?

01:10:55,542 --> 01:11:01,422

I'll send you a download link and then it'll be, I'll keep it open.

01:11:01,422 --> 01:11:03,622

I'll send it down and I'll keep it open.

01:11:03,642 --> 01:11:06,302

so download it now.

01:11:06,302 --> 01:11:10,062

And then, um, you know, then you can just have it.

01:11:10,542 --> 01:11:11,862

Um, okay.

01:11:11,862 --> 01:11:13,082

It's not, it's not, yeah.

01:11:13,082 --> 01:11:14,262

Text me when you download it.

01:11:14,262 --> 01:11:15,642

It's 90 minutes.

01:11:15,642 --> 01:11:20,166

Um, and it's, um, it's the.

01:11:20,334 --> 01:11:24,521

um story of D-Day, but from the perspective of the French.

01:11:25,565 --> 01:11:25,942

Yeah.

01:11:25,942 --> 01:11:27,414

I'll put it on a thumb drive.

01:11:27,414 --> 01:11:28,965

I'll play it for the bus.

01:11:29,627 --> 01:11:32,641

Yeah, we're all documentary nerds.

01:11:32,969 --> 01:11:34,331

some history.

01:11:34,331 --> 01:11:35,351

There you go.

01:11:35,351 --> 01:11:39,791

these guys like punk rockers, like, especially when you get old, like they're all about

history.

01:11:39,791 --> 01:11:41,071

Like it's.

01:11:41,071 --> 01:11:41,851

Yeah.

01:11:42,191 --> 01:11:43,231

Uh, let's see.

01:11:43,231 --> 01:11:49,051

I'd say they all range from between 50 to 65 ish.

01:11:49,051 --> 01:11:49,808

Yeah.

01:11:49,808 --> 01:11:51,387

and what's the name of the band?

01:11:51,387 --> 01:11:53,278

uh Spike in the Gimme Gimmies.

01:11:53,278 --> 01:12:02,193

It used to be me first in the Gimme Gimmies, but they're like a punk rock supergroup who

do like cover songs, but they do like Madonna, you know, I mean like songs you wouldn't

01:12:02,193 --> 01:12:02,693

expect.

01:12:02,693 --> 01:12:04,214

They're really good.

01:12:04,754 --> 01:12:06,325

Yeah, yeah, they're really good.

01:12:06,712 --> 01:12:08,733

OK, well, I'll give them a listen.

01:12:08,733 --> 01:12:14,797

You can tell them that uh that my very first band love band was the specials.

01:12:14,797 --> 01:12:15,737

So.

01:12:16,698 --> 01:12:21,891

Message to you, Rudy, concrete jungle, you know, um what else was on that?

01:12:21,891 --> 01:12:24,303

That album was just my favorite.

01:12:24,303 --> 01:12:28,236

We shot a thing, so every year I do this thing called Musac.

01:12:28,236 --> 01:12:33,409

It's a charity organization that puts guitars in the hands of underprivileged youth.

01:12:33,810 --> 01:12:37,373

And it's ran by a guy who's like a producer on the Simpsons.

01:12:37,373 --> 01:12:42,516

So we do it in his backyard, but when I say backyard, mean palatial estate backyard.

01:12:42,516 --> 01:12:46,079

And the specials came one year, two years actually.

01:12:46,079 --> 01:12:51,835

So I shot the specials in his backyard and the night before, and I have the footage, we

did a.

01:12:51,835 --> 01:12:57,239

60 minute retrospect on their career of just like Horace and Terry sitting down talking

about it.

01:12:57,239 --> 01:12:58,850

And we've never done anything with it.

01:12:58,850 --> 01:13:01,732

And I'm just like, it's kind of a goldmine guys.

01:13:01,732 --> 01:13:02,673

Like, what are we doing?

01:13:02,673 --> 01:13:07,365

So if we could put something together with that, it just seems right.

01:13:07,906 --> 01:13:08,447

All right.

01:13:08,447 --> 01:13:09,367

All right.

01:13:09,993 --> 01:13:11,437

Let's do it!

01:13:11,437 --> 01:13:20,015

I have to talk to Donik and I'll connect us all because it's all technically his footage,

but I have the hard drives and it's liquid gold.

01:13:20,120 --> 01:13:21,642

I am so in.

01:13:21,642 --> 01:13:25,646

Also, let me tell you, I have like a whole team of people.

01:13:25,646 --> 01:13:28,639

So for example, I have a lawyer that works with me.

01:13:28,639 --> 01:13:33,493

used to work at, um, what's the big law firm in LA?

01:13:34,815 --> 01:13:36,547

No, it's the other one.

01:13:36,547 --> 01:13:38,278

It's a starts with an S.

01:13:39,948 --> 01:13:41,669

Big anyway, one of the biggest there.

01:13:41,669 --> 01:13:43,000

Anyway, she left.

01:13:43,761 --> 01:13:47,144

She's now working with me as a producer, but she also does legal work.

01:13:47,144 --> 01:13:51,948

for me, and she's very good, but she's really inexpensive.

01:13:51,948 --> 01:13:54,029

I have an arc producer that works with me.

01:13:54,029 --> 01:14:02,116

Um, and so, um, you know, I have a team of people already put together, ready to work that

works really inexpensively.

01:14:02,116 --> 01:14:09,782

So, um, you know, we could, we could do some stuff pretty inexpensively plus.

01:14:09,782 --> 01:14:11,904

I already have distribution.

01:14:12,085 --> 01:14:15,089

Joe is willing to distribute anything I have.

01:14:15,089 --> 01:14:18,779

em Let's talk.

01:14:18,779 --> 01:14:21,002

Well, also keep me in your back pocket.

01:14:21,002 --> 01:14:30,375

I have like four or five cameras, all high quality, like lights, camera, like I literally

own my own production studio based out of my house.

01:14:30,375 --> 01:14:30,930

So.

01:14:30,930 --> 01:14:40,153

I'll tell you this, this I, I am right now, I am in a situation where I have a movie half

done.

01:14:40,153 --> 01:14:44,974

Um, it's no, it's a doc.

01:14:45,094 --> 01:14:55,697

So I have half the doc done and the problem with it is that I need finishing funds and I

don't have them, um, for my editor.

01:14:55,710 --> 01:14:59,182

The biggest fee is for my editor.

01:14:59,182 --> 01:15:01,282

because he's the editor that I work with.

01:15:01,282 --> 01:15:06,882

I've been working with him forever, but he's got a family and he needs, you know, $800 an

hour.

01:15:06,882 --> 01:15:09,182

And I want to pay him.

01:15:09,182 --> 01:15:10,842

I just don't have it.

01:15:10,842 --> 01:15:16,162

And I truly make my money through voiceover and acting.

01:15:16,162 --> 01:15:19,142

And I just had like spinal surgery.

01:15:19,142 --> 01:15:22,202

So a quarter of my spine was removed like six weeks ago.

01:15:22,202 --> 01:15:26,607

And so I'm like super low on funds and

01:15:26,607 --> 01:15:27,632

What's he edited in?

01:15:27,632 --> 01:15:28,728

What's his system?

01:15:28,728 --> 01:15:29,250

Avid or

01:15:29,250 --> 01:15:31,133

he's been using uh Avid.

01:15:31,133 --> 01:15:31,611

Yeah.

01:15:31,611 --> 01:15:32,202

that copy.

01:15:32,202 --> 01:15:33,763

So that would be a hell of a transition.

01:15:33,763 --> 01:15:36,636

I mean, I'm happy to jump on the project for free.

01:15:36,637 --> 01:15:45,948

I'm in Premiere mostly, but I have done Avid before, but translating a project into

Premiere where I'd be faster is hard, but I can pick up Avid again pretty quickly if you

01:15:45,948 --> 01:15:48,878

need somebody to hop in who's not going to charge you.

01:15:48,878 --> 01:15:58,818

Yeah, I mean, I just wonder if you would be interested, but let's the reason I would be

interested in working with you is because that you can do everything.

01:15:58,918 --> 01:16:02,178

And I, um, I don't have the other things.

01:16:02,178 --> 01:16:05,858

Like I don't have a colorist and it looks like you can do that.

01:16:05,858 --> 01:16:06,638

Yeah.

01:16:06,758 --> 01:16:11,438

Um, and it really looks like you have all the other skills that I need.

01:16:11,438 --> 01:16:15,190

And, um, I'm to the place where I, you know,

01:16:15,190 --> 01:16:17,412

The first movie everybody did volunteer.

01:16:17,412 --> 01:16:21,314

The only person I really paid was the editor and the colorist.

01:16:21,314 --> 01:16:23,304

And I paid for sound, my sound guy.

01:16:23,304 --> 01:16:29,370

Um, but I, this movie that I have, it's called heroes of Carroton.

01:16:29,370 --> 01:16:33,042

And it's the story about the 101st airborne division.

01:16:33,042 --> 01:16:36,805

The city actually asked me to tell the story.

01:16:36,805 --> 01:16:43,119

And, um, it's these guys that were in the 101st airborne division who liberated this

French town.

01:16:43,119 --> 01:16:45,066

And so you have, um, this.

01:16:45,066 --> 01:16:49,450

city called Carroton and it sits in between Omaha and Utah Beach.

01:16:49,450 --> 01:16:58,899

And so the Americans landed on those two beaches, em but they could not join together

because the Germans held this town.

01:16:58,899 --> 01:17:10,638

And so it was this fortress town that Hitler knew and Rommel knew that the Americans, if

they took it, um it was over.

01:17:10,638 --> 01:17:15,398

And so they reinforced it, you know, and it was very, very difficult fight.

01:17:15,398 --> 01:17:27,058

Well, the 101st airborne division, they defeated the Germans there single-handedly with

three companies, but they lost a ton of men and no one knows.

01:17:27,058 --> 01:17:28,578

No one knows about the men.

01:17:28,578 --> 01:17:30,778

No one really pays attention to the town.

01:17:30,778 --> 01:17:39,178

It was one episode in band of brothers called Carrington, but now that was 20 years ago

that, that, um, you know, that, that, uh, band of brothers was done.

01:17:39,178 --> 01:17:40,938

So people forgotten about it.

01:17:41,054 --> 01:17:44,075

Um, and so, huh.

01:17:44,695 --> 01:17:45,775

That's so good.

01:17:45,775 --> 01:17:51,197

So what I did was, um, two of my sons are in the military and that's how these, um,

started.

01:17:51,197 --> 01:17:59,959

Um, but, what, what I, I had the, um, I have permission with the department of defense to

make this movie.

01:17:59,959 --> 01:18:02,220

Plus I have access to the 101st airborne division.

01:18:02,220 --> 01:18:04,140

Cause both my sons were there.

01:18:04,140 --> 01:18:10,412

And so I've been wanting to make, you know, these world war two films relevant to.

01:18:10,412 --> 01:18:11,402

today.

01:18:11,602 --> 01:18:17,988

so what my idea was, my son had just been shipped off to Romania at the beginning of the

war in Ukraine.

01:18:18,069 --> 01:18:28,218

And I was like, this 101st Airborne Division going to Europe, it was like one of the first

times that they had been back since they left in World War II.

01:18:28,218 --> 01:18:38,442

And so I thought, wouldn't it be interesting if these soldiers that were the first in

Ukraine, they told the stories of the soldiers that were

01:18:38,442 --> 01:18:39,903

01:18:39,903 --> 01:18:52,610

So for example, the general Max Taylor that helped win Normandy and won the battle of

Normandy, he was um the last general to leave there.

01:18:52,610 --> 01:19:00,315

And the next general that was there was, I forget his name now, but anyway, he was willing

to do an interview with me.

01:19:00,315 --> 01:19:02,616

So he was the next general of the 101st.

01:19:02,616 --> 01:19:06,754

And he came back and he talked to me about Maxwell Taylor because

01:19:06,754 --> 01:19:09,536

He studied him and he was an inspiration for him.

01:19:09,536 --> 01:19:18,362

And so then there were other guys that died there and they were inspirations for other

people that were serving in the 101st.

01:19:18,362 --> 01:19:24,566

And so they came back and talked about these guys who had died, how they were inspirations

for them and they told their story.

01:19:24,566 --> 01:19:35,766

And so I thought that's super cool to have these modern day soldiers talking about the

legacy of heroism that these former 101st soldiers lived.

01:19:35,766 --> 01:19:40,988

And so we kind of tell the story of the town and the battle, but through modern day eyes.

01:19:40,988 --> 01:19:46,050

um And so anyway, that's kind of where it is right now.

01:19:46,050 --> 01:19:49,232

I have the interviews of these modern day soldiers.

01:19:49,232 --> 01:19:55,174

have the archival footage of um some soldiers talking about the actual battle.

01:19:55,174 --> 01:19:56,374

have tons of archival.

01:19:56,374 --> 01:19:59,896

I haven't written it yet, but I have an outline for it.

01:19:59,896 --> 01:20:05,358

um And we have cut the footage down.

01:20:05,358 --> 01:20:13,158

you know, we've cut out, like we've done the assembly edits, like we have the pieces, but,

cut all the raw stuff.

01:20:13,158 --> 01:20:24,978

And I, I'm at the place where, you know, I need my partner to say, like, I've been waiting

for Bill to take it and see everything we've done and look at my outline and say, yeah,

01:20:24,978 --> 01:20:26,178

this is interesting.

01:20:26,178 --> 01:20:28,178

Let's put these pieces together.

01:20:28,178 --> 01:20:30,878

And he's just been too busy to do that.

01:20:30,878 --> 01:20:31,488

So.

01:20:31,488 --> 01:20:33,282

your assembly cut out right now?

01:20:33,282 --> 01:20:34,564

Well, we don't have a cut.

01:20:34,564 --> 01:20:44,045

just cut all the edits out, like all the interviews, and we have all the B-roll, and so we

have all the pieces of all the interviews.

01:20:44,045 --> 01:20:48,781

Everything's ready to be assembled, but all I have is an outline right now.

01:20:48,781 --> 01:20:50,001

I haven't written it.

01:20:50,021 --> 01:20:50,913

Copy that.

01:20:50,913 --> 01:20:58,030

I mean, if you need help, I will do it for free as a favor and then, you know, we'll work

something out.

01:20:58,030 --> 01:21:04,210

Well, let's watch my first movie and then let's keep talking.

01:21:05,110 --> 01:21:06,130

I love it too.

01:21:06,130 --> 01:21:08,370

really am impressed by you.

01:21:10,770 --> 01:21:11,950

Oh no, it's true.

01:21:11,950 --> 01:21:12,950

So true.

01:21:12,950 --> 01:21:13,550

All right.

01:21:13,550 --> 01:21:22,290

So you think about how you can get those people to come together to talk about Michael and

to talk about working on your film.

01:21:22,290 --> 01:21:24,210

So that's what I want them for.

01:21:24,210 --> 01:21:25,000

I'd love to.

01:21:25,000 --> 01:21:29,992

hit up Kevin tonight and uh because I think he's got direct text access to him.

01:21:29,992 --> 01:21:32,982

So I'll write something and have him paste it in the group thread.

01:21:32,982 --> 01:21:36,002

Yeah, if you want, and if Kevin's willing to come on, we'll have him too.

01:21:36,002 --> 01:21:40,328

Yeah, I'd love to Kevin to come and talk.

01:21:40,328 --> 01:21:40,648

easy.

01:21:40,648 --> 01:21:43,895

Can you please tell him you don't like his work on the record?

01:21:43,895 --> 01:21:46,219

I would die laughing.

01:21:46,521 --> 01:21:48,023

God, I would die.

01:21:48,378 --> 01:21:49,985

my goodness, he would hate me.

01:21:49,985 --> 01:21:51,328

I know, not at all.

01:21:51,328 --> 01:21:52,718

He's got a good sense of humor.

01:21:52,718 --> 01:21:56,058

Well, I mean, it's not that I don't, well, I just am not drawn to it.

01:21:56,058 --> 01:21:58,818

You know, it's kind of like not my sense of humor.

01:21:59,378 --> 01:22:15,158

I actually, so what's interesting is seeing him on camera and, seeing him in your film, I

saw him in a different light and I saw him like I saw you because he's talking about

01:22:15,158 --> 01:22:21,998

somebody else and he's, you know, he's telling me what he sees in a person.

01:22:21,998 --> 01:22:22,506

so,

01:22:22,506 --> 01:22:26,636

I just saw him in a different light and it made me go like, huh, he's interesting.

01:22:26,636 --> 01:22:28,133

He's not what I thought.

01:22:28,133 --> 01:22:33,246

Sure, I feel that I love his first couple movies, but he got very in his own.

01:22:33,463 --> 01:22:39,031

He started making movies for his fans and not himself, so he lost me along the way to.

01:22:39,920 --> 01:22:42,071

So anyway, uh okay.

01:22:42,071 --> 01:22:42,251

Yeah.

01:22:42,251 --> 01:22:50,927

So you work on those things and see if you can get any of those people to come on and talk

about Michael and talk about the doc and um,

01:22:50,927 --> 01:22:54,412

Justin loved the doc, so I can't imagine that would be a hard ask.

01:22:54,412 --> 01:22:56,764

Okay, that would be super.

01:22:56,764 --> 01:23:03,869

And I will send you the link to the Girl Who Wore Freedom and then you can download it and

you'll tell me when you've downloaded it so I can close it.

01:23:03,869 --> 01:23:11,958

And then I'm email Joe and then I'm gonna put links to your band, Empire, if you want me

to.

01:23:11,958 --> 01:23:15,616

I wanna put links for the stuff that you've talked about.

01:23:15,616 --> 01:23:18,438

um And...

01:23:18,533 --> 01:23:21,210

past tense EMPI-RED.

01:23:21,432 --> 01:23:23,178

D, okay.

01:23:23,178 --> 01:23:25,274

Send me a link to that.

01:23:25,274 --> 01:23:26,799

You've talked about some other things.

01:23:26,799 --> 01:23:28,161

You talked about...

01:23:30,466 --> 01:23:34,445

There was another thing you talked about and I was like, shoot, need to link.

01:23:34,445 --> 01:23:35,127

score.

01:23:35,127 --> 01:23:36,851

uh

01:23:38,102 --> 01:23:44,005

It was some, was not, shoot, wasn't a school.

01:23:44,005 --> 01:23:49,248

It wasn't a, it was something like, it was something where I was like, my gosh, I need a

link for that.

01:23:49,248 --> 01:23:52,870

um Something you watched or.

01:23:53,755 --> 01:23:55,159

A of dreams?

01:23:55,366 --> 01:23:57,430

That I will, I mean, I can find that.

01:23:57,430 --> 01:23:58,662

No, was way before that.

01:23:58,662 --> 01:24:00,636

It was in the middle of what we were talking about.

01:24:00,636 --> 01:24:02,699

I mean, Heidi will go back and find it.