What do Sangiovese, Judas Iscariot, and the courage to reinvent yourself have in common? More than you'd think. Definitely more than I would have thought.

I'm sitting down with Daniel Grace, the man behind Il Molino di Grace in Panzano, Tuscany, and his debut philosophical thriller In the Wake of Golgotha, for one of the most wide-ranging, soul-stirring conversations yet on Sip With Nikki.

Learn more about the episode at sipwithnikki.com/podcast.

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📖 Get the book: In the Wake of Golgotha is available now on Amazon in hardcover and Kindle. Learn more at Daniel's Website and follow along at @danielmarkgrace on Instagram.

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What I have loved about this process, not necessarily the writing process, but the bringing it to market process, is I'm a wreck every day. I love the fact that I'm sweating and I'm nervous and I'm a total fish out of water. And to be this far out of my comfort zone I think is a blast.

Well, hello, it's Nikki Lamberti coming to you from Sonoma County, California. Thanks for listening in this week. I've got a fun announcement before I get to this week's fascinating guests.

I am really thrilled and honored to say that we now have Il Circolo, the Inner circle. We have a wine club now we're finally making enough wine and a few different wines where it makes sense to have a club.

And if you are one of our regular customers who has been ordering salavato wine, you should have received an email invitation to become a founding member.

So check out solevatowines.com Speaking of Sangiovese, I was so excited to be connected with this week's guest, Daniel Grace. His family owns a winery in the Tuscany area, Panzano specifically.

And of course I couldn't wait to talk with him all about making Sangiovese and his Italian expression versus my California expression. So we have a very special sip spotlight that you'll get to hear.

And one of the things that was intriguing as I learned a little more about Daniel, was that he and I have something very much in common. And that is that we are multi passionate entrepreneurs and neither of us are just one thing.

And he's currently on a book tour promoting it and the book is called in the Wake of Golgotha. And when I first learned about it, I thought, oh, is this, is this a religious book?

And when I dug a little bit deeper, I learned that it is categorized as a philosophical fantasy and has some really interesting themes as he looks at some pretty famous characters that many of us know from history and examines who they are and what it would be like if they met in current day New York City. What better, better pairing than a great glass of wine in a great book?

And so I've got both of those for you today with Daniel and I'm excited for you to hear me put him on the spot a little bit.

When I pose a spontaneous question that I hadn't planned that throws him for a loop and takes him a minute and then he comes up with a very, very cool answer. So if you want to hear a little bit more about what it's like as an American to own a winery in Italy, I'm raising my hand.

Yes, I want to learn more about that and also what leads someone to follow another passion, which is to become a writer. Then you're going to want to listen to my interview with Daniel Grace. Or is it grache? You're going to have to listen to find out. Here we go.

Happy St. Patrick's Day. From west coast to East Coast.

Absolutely. We're covering it all. And what better way to celebrate St. Patrick's Day than start off with a little Tuscan Sangiovese. So this is perfect.

We're just going off brand, right off the top.

Literary, crime fiction. Who needs corned beef and cabbage?

Exactly, exactly. We're shaking it up today and good for us.

Oh, Daniel, we were talking a little bit about your last name. So are you in fact Irish?

Yes. So Grace is rooted in, I think it's County Donegal. And I've spent, I've spent a good amount of time in Ireland.

In fact, little side note, I, in a very distant previous life actually studied and performed at the National Theatre in Dublin, was studying Becket and performed Waiting for Godot at the Peacock at the National Theater. So I have a strong affinity for my time in Dublin and the Emerald Isle.

Wow. So just one more interesting layer of this man that I'm trying to uncover and learn about with all of your different.

Just another reason I need therapy.

Probably you and me both. Thank you for making time because I think you're in the middle of a book tour. Is that correct?

Go figure. Right there. It's interesting, though. So my life has become toiling fields and taking years to capture a $30 bottle of Chianti Classico.

And I've transitioned to toiling for years to create and capture a $30 book.

There are definitely some parallels. I like the parallel in the price point.

And yeah, those are the two main things that I want to talk about today and that I want our listeners to hear about. But I'm sure you've done this a million times, especially now that you're promoting the book.

But because you and I don't know each other, I'm just really curious of how you got started. So I understand that you are London born, but California bred and then Italian family winery. So how did we get to where we are today?

Sure, we were chatting beforehand and I was mentioning that I. I feel like I'm constantly disappointing people because they're expecting some beautiful Italian model to be presenting the wines and almost hung up.

I almost was right. Exactly.

You're like, wrong room, buddy. Get out. I get that a lot.

So, yes, I don't look and sound like a typical Tuscan wine producer, but I have had the great fortune of running a family business.

We are California San Francisco rooted family who had some incredible good fortune, which enabled us to buy a property in the heart of the Chianti Classico zone.

And actually there's a, there's a, there's a structure, a villa on the property that was a Franciscan monastery at one point. So a property that's steeped in history. And we built the cellar and the fruit had been sourced for generations locally.

And we're now about 27 harvests in. We're primarily a Chianti Classico producer. We produce a Turbiano, we of course a Super Tuscan, all these things that we can get into.

But really set out really seeing this through a foreign lens where we were so captivated by the mysticism and the majesty of these hills.

We did what I think the only noble, responsible Californian would do to this land and we ripped out all the cabernet that was really the only change we made to the vineyard. Seriously, Cat.

But exactly.

So. Just so we weren't tempted to scratch that itch.

We were purists, and so we really set out as authenticity, as our compass, and it's been quite the ride.

Wow. So 27 harvest. So you were like a young adult at this time, because this is multigenerational, right? This was your family that was doing this.

Exactly. My. My father was crazy enough to launch this incredible venture. I, at the time, had an advertising agency. And the interesting transition.

It was my brother and my father that really got this property off the ground and on the map. And we've been working with Franco Bernabe, one of the most iconic consulting oenologists in all of Italy, from the beginning. I always talk about.

At our beginning, we were like a garage band, and working with Franco was like. We hired Bono as our songwriter. And it's.

I, frankly, after the first 10 years or so, I just was watching my father and my brother, and they were just having way too much fun. So I was like, damn it, I'm in. And, you know, it's. It's been great. It's been absolutely just a. Just an incredible adventure.

Despite the fact, I think when we first got there, there was a. We thought, we're these lovely, charming people, and we're going to do everything as purists and driven by authenticity.

And I think locally, there was a bit of a sentiment of, oh, here come the Americans, and we're going to put in a casino and we're going to put in a Starbucks and all that good stuff. But we held true to the mission.

And then they saw you tear out Cabernet Sauvignon, and they were like, okay, they could stay, right?

Yeah, they're not so bad. Piano, piano. You know, step by step, slowly, we. Now they can't get rid of us.

So you were in the world of advertising.

It's funny, when I think back in my world of advertising, it does seem so distant in terms of having offices in San Francisco and Boston and New York and kind of corporate presentation rooms and all types of media. It's funny, now I feel like I'm at a core, I'm a storyteller, right?

And whether it's theater or whether it's advertising, whether it's winemaking, and now as a novelist, all of a sudden I'm like, wait, that's. I knew there'd be a common thread.

At some point, you're in this advertising world. But then you said you saw your dad and your brother Having so much fun. And you're like, I'm gonna do this. And so you start making wine.

How do you know how to make wine?

You jump in head first. And we, to be truthful, we have an amazing winemaking team. And I learned from people who have been doing this for generations.

And also you learn it takes, you know, I would argue, 15, 20 years to get to know your own hills and your own soil and your own fruit and your own soul and your own dance.

And so I think being patient and not necessarily we started from a place of, again, especially as Americans, we manage another property outside our 25 hectares and we produce about 250,000 bottles, a decent amount of wine. In terms of our export, the States is our biggest market.

But the point I'm trying to make is we were so aware, despite the fact we were Americans bringing most of our wine to the United States, we were so hell bent on not making kind of market friendly wines. We wanted to bring the market into Panzano. And part of our thinking.

And allow me the sidebar again, just a quick word about Panzano, our UGA and our village. It's such a unique place.

And for those who haven't had the good fortune to come to Panzano, what it isn't, it's not a Castellina, it's not a Rada, it's not a Gaioli or little mini San Gimignano.

And what I mean by that, it's not a fortified hilltop village that sort of rested its laurels on nobility and principessa and wealth over the centuries. And. And as such, Panzano, it's had to work harder throughout the millennia.

And so when it comes to its wood craftsmanship, and it's meat and it's leather and its wine, there's an unapologetic sense of authenticity. And there's a little bit of a what is what you get, take it.

Or leave it, which now you're speaking my language. People are just listening to this interview and not watching it.

He did the gesture that my father, Dominic, may he rest in peace, Dominic Lamberti's favorite gesture, up and under the chin. Ah.

Oh, I love it. Bon Capliano.

Yeah.

Yeah. And so to me, there's a kind of a blue collar, surprising blue collar grit to Panzano.

And so that just struck a deep chord with us and it's captivating. So anyway, excuse the sidebar.

Not a sidebar. That's why we're here. I can't wait to visit. And you split your time there now between San Francisco and Panzano, is that correct?

That's right now, the past couple of years and moving forward primarily based in Panzano. For me, I can hear the violins in the background. I'm sure everybody feels sorry for me, but it's.

And I think as the wine, as the market and the industry, you know, is rapidly shifting and I'm not talking about tariffs, I'm talking about just the nature of the business is shifting. There's certainly more of a focus on hospitality and the more of the deeper experiences on site. It's a fascinating time to ride that transition.

Yeah.

And B, the goal would be to. We're never going to be ahead of it. It's a question of just riding that wave and make this is the new normal.

And so it's, I think it's critical to, to spend more time on the ground and as such probably a little bit less time and in market in Asia, all throughout North America, where I typically spend my time. And we don't want to be too at the mercy of again, you look at oil prices this week, you look at the chaos from tariffs and so I'd rather not.

Right, Exactly. Exactly. I've stick my head in the sand myself.

Yeah. So you have three daughters. I understand. And that whenever I read that, that always resonates with me because I'm one of three daughters.

I'm the middle child, if that tells you anything.

Your blessed father.

But what is, what are the ages of your daughters?

So I have a 25 year old who's in medical school in Chicago. I have a 23 year old who's recent graduate working and living in London.

And then I have my youngest daughter, a 19 year old who's here in D.C. so they're, they're spread all over the place. And again, for those of you who are only listening, then I can describe my joke of not having any hair and blame them for that.

You guys, he really doesn't have any hair, but he has a great beard. A perfect beard. I must.

There we go. Thank you.

I think this is a perfect time then as we've been leading into it, to do what we call our Sip Spotlight. Sip Spotlight. We both have il molino de grace. Il molino de grache. As you said. People want to Italianize here. And do we have the same line?

So Sangiovese. My heart is just warm. Thank you for sharing this with Me.

Pleasure.

Let's have a little splash as we talk, just for a few more minutes, about wine, and then we'll move into your exciting new venture. But I would just love for you to tell me, why did you pick this for us to sip? And what do I need to know about this wine?

First of all, I feel like I can't talk about it until we do a proper salute and salute. Start from there. Exactly.

Oh, it just smells like the motherland.

Smells like the motherland. Exactly. So to me, I think my shtick, if you will, with the Chianti Classico is the intention here is farm in a bottle. Right.

And a lot of producers and a lot of estates all around the world. The biggest insult you could throw at them is farm in a bottle. For me, it's the greatest compliment that I could land on.

We come into a region and a space.

Chianti Classico that is as a zone and as a product that had been dominated for generations, really, by lazy, flabby wines that were made by you guys.

I thought he was going to say lazy, flabby people. He was not. We use words to describe wines. Too flabby.

Exactly. Exactly. And the wines were lazy and flabby because the producers were lazy and flabby and took the market for granted.

Yeah.

And I think for far too long. And I'm not talking broad stroke. Chianti, like Chianti Classico, was a sea of mediocrity. And I think as the market started to recognize.

Recognize that in the 80s and the 90s, the profile of wines coming out of Tuscany were being elevated with sort of the emergence of the super Tuscan category and whatnot. Slowly but surely, the wine started to get a little bit better.

And so this is our Chianti Classico natta, which has always, ever been 100% Sangiovese, will always, ever only be 100% Sangiovese. That's why it says Solo Sangiovese on the label. But we had been pursuing a cleaner expression of Sangiovese, a leaner, muscled Sangiovese.

So here we have with the 22, a bright, bold, balanced, beautiful vintage. Very fruit forward and expressive. This lovely sort of pop and kiss of vibrant red cherry fruit leaning into our younger vines.

These are all vines under 12 years old, just to have that youthful momentum before we start getting uphill into the Reserva and the Gran Selexion and the Super Tuscans.

Youthful momentum. I'm going to keep that phrase and coin it for myself.

Go figure out. Go figure. I'm a writer too. Why not?

I think gone are the days where Chianti Classicos are dependent on the pairing of cuisine and the pairing of season and the pairing of mood. And I think the drinkability of Chianti Classico is skyrocketing of late.

And when you think historically of the Chianti Classico region, there is no more of a boring, tired, conservative, traditional wine producing region in the world than the Chianti Classico zone.

You're seeing less blending, you're seeing less influence of oak, you're seeing more sort of just simple expressions of fruit and terroir and basta. That's all you need.

And I'm the first to acknowledge, you walk into, whether it's a total wine or the finest restaurants in London, Singapore, New York, wherever. Fifteen years ago, 10 years ago, you had a 50, 50.

It was a crapshoot whether you're going to get a decent bottle or glass to count the classico wines. Now, I would argue, and all kidding aside, we're talking whether you're, you're at Olive Garden or whether you're at the French Laundry.

The Classicos that are in market, they're just simply better.

Yeah.

And I think that's a great thing. I don't want to be an exception in a sea of mediocrity.

Want us to shine because these are wildly approachable and affordable wines that I think is a category totally punch above their weight. I could go on, on and on.

I know you could.

And my regular listeners, I know they're nodding their heads and almost like an eye roll with love, because they're like, nikki, we know, Daniel, we know. They have heard me tout the praises of Sangiovese as a grape. That's why I make it.

Even though I live in Sonoma county, there is less than 15% of all the acreage at Napa and Sonoma is this grape. I make it much like your family does where it's 100% from a single vineyard, neutral farm in a bottle. I love.

I would never ever think of that as a negative.

So I am obviously a proponent of this grape, whether it's the California expression or Chianti Classico, where I fell in love with drinking it, which is what led me to make it now here.

I recently had a, I had a Sangiovese from the Guadalupe Valley in the Baja Peninsula.

Oh yeah.

Wildly different. And to me I'm fascinated just with our little corner of the concadero with these 25 hectares, just the diversity in the spectrum of Sangiovese.

And then when you look at that at a global level, like to me it's. We were talking at the outset about getting geeky. Like I'm getting just jittery and jumpy.

It's exciting and Sangiovese, I'm just mesmerized by the versatility and the energy and just such a just kick ass old school varietal.

And it's just a man to the kick ass reference. And I will tell you, and I'm sure you know this because you travel in market and you represent your family's winery in these wines.

With the wicker basket and the candle.

Baske on the table at the Macaroni Grill. When I was growing up in New Jersey in the 90s, that was my association with Chianti. But Sangiovese as a whole, like so many people are like what?

They don't even know what it is. So I feel like with at least American wine drinkers, we've got some work to do and I am happy to be a proponent.

It's funny, we have our sort of, our entry level igt it's a baby Tuscan, it's a blend. It's our only traditional blend. We have a little bit of Merlot at the property that this is our only traditional blend.

Our high end Super Tuscan is all indigenous fruit. Sangiovese colorino, Caniolo, single vineyard, co fermented field blend.

But this entry level igt or Il Vilano, I mention it because it's 75% Sangiovese, 25% Merlot straight out of steel into glass. It's this. It's this reminder to the market that Sangiovese can be delightful, whimsical, can put a smile on your face.

And I refer to it affectionately as two things as my breakfast wine. But for the US Market, it's my gateway drug for those who are just resistant to the whole Chianti classico thing.

And no Old World is too intimidating or it's too much of. Maybe they went off track with Piedmont once and it was too much. So, yes, that's my sneaky way of converting people.

It's beautiful. And I can't wait to finish this bottle with Michael tonight with dinner.

I think it's very food friendly, but a lovely sipper on its own and the opposite of flabby or lazy exclamation points and choreography in my mouth, that beautiful acidity that I love about Sangiovese. So congratulations to you and your family on this.

Thank you.

Tell our listeners before we move on, how can they get their hands on this?

So il Molino de Grace or Il Million de Grace, widely available throughout the United States. We ship. We ship direct. So if there's any interest there. Ilmolino the Grace it. But widely distributed. We're in about 42 states.

So you're going to find it at most fine wine retailers. Some of your favorite restaurants that won't be exclusively Italian. They'll. You'll hopefully find us on lots of different lists.

Okay. And just the blue accents of the two dudes hauling a gigantic cluster of grapes. Is there a story there?

There is. We have a lot of artwork at the property. We regard this land as living land and we wanted to celebrate local materials and local artists.

And so that's actually a replica of a 20 foot statue we have at the property, suggestive of actually a biblical story of grape bearers carrying grapes across the River Jordan back in the day. We have a 60 foot tall statue of San Francesco at the top of the property to mark the Franciscan roots of the property and our San Francisco roots.

So again, I think we believe the wine is. It's part labor of love, it's part art. It's about relationships.

And so we just wanted to celebrate all aspects of history and culture coming out of this fruitful land.

Wow. Beautifully said. And I can't wait to see that statue.

You have to come play something that.

You said when you were describing the label there, the biblical reference. I think that right away leads me to ask about how the heck did you write a book and what the heck is this book about, Sir?

What the heck is happening to this guy? So, yes, the book, I'll lift it up in the wake of Golgotha. And all kidding aside, it's not a light read and it's a tale was.

Not a light read. I was like, oh, here we go.

Okay, we're start, we're starting. Steep. And again, I think this is a legitimate segue.

You know, I think standing on these hills and being this temporary steward of the land where you're just engrossed in living history, truly, these are vineyards that have been around for 2,000 years. And this is history and culture and art is something that I'm keenly aware of.

And as a steward of the land, there's where again, especially as foreigners, right, we're there for a moment in time, it's a blink and the objective is to A, not screw it up and B, to return the land in better shape than we found it. And so it's through that lens that I regard a lot of things. And maybe it's culture and it's art and it's literature.

And so I was, as one does, toiling in these fields and during harvest you're struck with all these sort of crazy ideas.

And I became very interested in this notion of the role and the lynching, if you will, of these two biblical characters of Judas Iscariot and Pontius Pilate and their eternal damnation and the shadow that they cast in as pivotal players in the greatest story ever told.

And I just became fascinated about how much we don't know about those characters of Judas and Pilate, despite their infamy and despite their damnation.

And spending so much time when we're talking whether it's the Uffizi in Florence or whether we're talking about Il Serracondo, the Last Supper in Milan, these characters are ubiquitous in religious art and yet almost have a two dimensional shadow and they've become abstract adjectives and these violent fervents verbs. And yet as people, they've been almost oversimplified. So I felt it was time to reconsider their fate and their damnation and their journey. And it.

So that was the lead in to, to write this story.

And just learning as a young person, it's one thing to stand there and consider them, it's another thing to say, oh, now I'm actually going to write a book where these are the characters. And I don't want to give too much away, but a lot of this can come just off the synopsis on your book jacket.

But then it has a current day twist to it of these individuals meeting. So anyway, we can get to the plot in a minute. But how did you know how to write a book?

And if people are out there listening, thinking, gosh, I've had this idea that I've been considering. What's the first step and how do you actually make it a reality?

It's interesting and I think we talked a little bit about my background and I think I was fortunate in the advertising space to write and learn the craft. And I think, as silly as it sounds, as a winemaker, you're telling stories, right?

People have an affinity to wine because they have an affinity to the people and the place behind the wine. And it's all mythology.

And not to say you make this stuff up, I'm so fortunate that I have this living, breathing mythology just to harness and tap into. Easiest job in the world. And yet it's all storytelling.

And so I think by the time I got to crafting this story, that's a muscle that I think had been flexed and worked out, whether it's with wine and whether it's with advertising. So it was, it came surprisingly. It's a beast of a book and the process is difficult.

But what I was so surprised was how fun and inspiring and cathartic the actual storytelling process was. And to me, crafting this story was so inspiring, partly because when you start the research, and again, this is not a religious story.

This is very much a story set in contemporary New York.

And it's really about all of us and the guilt and the sorrow and the fate and the faith and the sins and the hope and the hopelessness that we all carry and that we all struggle with, whether it's in this life or previous. Right. It's that baggage. And these are universal themes. And despite the fact who leads more of a charmed life than a Tuscan winemaker?

We're all caring freight of luggage. And so it Then became easy when you're focusing on two of history's most damned cursed characters.

And what was so interesting was despite the magnitude of the event of Golgotha, the crucifixion atop Calvary Hill, the Plateau of Skulls, a single event that's probably the most critical, pivotal, soul changing event in human history, there's such tremendous collateral damage that I wanted to consider those who stayed behind, those who fell at the base of that hill, those who still remain in the shadow of the cross and who didn't rise.

And so what was fascinating was I thought I knew so much about these characters and about their journey to the cross and their journey in the aftermath. And what's so interesting was there's almost a Mandela effect around Judas and Pilate.

I think we all have different narratives of their past, whether it comes to the trial, the betrayal, the crucifixion and the subsequent aftermath. But what's shocking when you dive deep into this space, historically there's virtually nothing written about these two eternal souls that.

That we all know is on a first name basis.

And so the fact that there's a virtual blank canvas around their motivation, around their inspiration, around their choices was wildly liberating as a storyteller.

And so then to take that leap to say, how do we craft a story that takes place in modern day New York that's still centered around violence and addiction and capital punishment and crucifixion, and how do we bring these characters back, back together again and so they could recognize their damnation and perhaps take a step towards redemption? Was. It's a strange word to use in the concept of crucifixion and capital punishment and addiction, but a really a fun. It was a fun journey.

A light read. Just a light read.

A light read. A light read.

You've heard that some of the literary reviews from your website. The term literary thriller, philosophical fantasy with echoes of the New Testament. But this one, I wanted to get your take on it said.

Recommended for people who like literary crime fiction with a strong theological spine. Is that accurate?

Yeah, because I think at the end of the day, no matter the religion, there's incredible correlations. Every religion, there's a universality to a struggle up to a top of a hill upon which there is tremendous violence.

This is a recurring theme across religions, isn't it?

Every single one. So to me, this was never written as a piece of Christian or Catholic fiction, or this was never written as even this, as a religious tale.

Clearly it's an allegory. But what isn't every Shakespeare out there, every great thriller is a battle of good and evil.

There's theater nerd coming out. There's logical nerd coming out.

Exactly.

I could get into Becket and Godo and Ego and ID and all that wonderful stuff, but really I think there's an element, especially when it comes to religion, especially in Catholicism, where many of us are wearing crosses that hang near to our heart. And it gives us tremendous strength and hope and courage. But oftentimes the reality of the act isn't considered and it's a tremendously violent act.

And this was a rich, frequent form of capital punishment. And we still struggle with these issues of the violence around capital punishment and who is able to pass judgment and why.

And for those that are able to pass judgment in terms of crime and sentence, the ramifications of their actions and that judgment. These themes are universal, Right? So these themes are not. They transcend religion. Right.

That we humanity has a steep, deep history and present today, right. And future that is and will always be marked by religious violence. And I think there is an opportunity to consider that.

And I think I found it faith affirming to humanize the collateral damage, to humanize the pain, the anguish, the violence around the punishment and the choices that were made. And whether it's the betrayal. You look at in terms of Judas as a character, again, who's synonymous with betrayal to an eternal damnation cost.

And yet there are those. And this is not an original thought. This is, you know, inspired by it. Maybe it's Nikos Kazanzakis Last Temptation of Christ.

It's Andrew Lloyd Weber, Jesus Christ Superstar, who take that sympathetic view of Judas Iscariot as one who knowingly betrayed his brother, right, his master, his teacher, to fulfill the Scriptures. And, you know, that's an extraordinarily difficult job. Some might even argue he may have even had the harder job.

And also to know that decision and those actions would forever damn him in whatever way, shape or form one sees an eternal damnation.

And so to me, it's just there's an opportunity to reimagine their roles and their tales and their aftermath that I think is just at a human level, fundamentally interesting.

I read quite a bit, although not as much in this genre. I tend to read a little bit lighter when I'm not reading wine nerd books. So I'm probably not the best person to give this review.

And I'm not done with it yet. I'm in it, but this is unlike anything else that I have ever read. Even when I Just read the synopsis.

When you and I first got connected a couple months ago, and in preparation for meeting you, when I just read the jacket blurb, I was like, what? This is not like anything that I've read before. That's exciting. And I'm. I'm saying that as a compliment.

It also seems to be very timely in the world that we are in. And so many parallels to pain and struggle and betrayal and violence and all the things that are going on.

I might be putting you on the spot a little bit because we didn't talk about this as a question, but it just popped into my head, and it's drawing another parallel between your two worlds and your two loves of wine. And now being an author and hopefully a New York Times bestselling author soon.

There we go. Because of this conversation today, because of.

The listeners of Sip with Nikki. Yes. But my question is this. If the book, in the wake of Golgotha, if you were to represent that book as a wine. So I'm not asking a pairing.

I'm not saying what should someone sip when they read it, because that's very subjective and personal. But if you were to describe this book using a wine as a reference, a type of wine, a style of wine, what is it?

Oh, my God. That is an amazing question. I love that question. I absolutely wish I was prepared to answer it. So give me.

I just thought of it. I'm sorry. I could have.

It's a great question because it's funny. I've been talking a lot about the book and with wine, and I love just the concept of what people pair with what they're reading. And I.

You know, when people are reading a light summer romance, they're drinking a. You know, it's just.

Yeah, exactly. So a little easier to answer. But this is like, what wine is your book?

I think I have an answer. So as you. So for those who can visually see and for those who can't, there's a hill on the COVID And Golgotha. It is a hill.

And so the answer to your question, because this wine to me is a dichotomy and is a juxtaposition and is incredible. As I would say, it could almost be any varietal. First, I'm going to set the wine coming out of the minerality of Mount Aetna in Sicily.

And so first of all, I'm Biased, because if you were to open my cellar, you might see a lot of. Whether it's the Bebo or just even an Aetna Bianco, that aside for the.

First time, like 20 months ago, and tasting an Aetna, and my heart is there. So keep going.

It's kind of life changing. But I think, honestly, like.

Like I'm now proud of the answer I'm giving, because I'm like, okay, this might be my forever answer with that question, because I think there's something about Etna wines that there's a friction, there's a tension, there's an absolute surprise that the mineral.

So when I first stepped foot on Etna some years ago at a property in the state, I used to talk about the minerality of our cholesterol soil coming out of the Tuscan hills.

When I first stepped foot on Etna and started tasting Etna wines, I have never used the word minerality since, relative to the wines coming out of our little pocket of the Concordura, because you can't when you've been on Aetna and you've danced with that minerality. And so to think these incredible. It's not even terroir, it's not even fruit, but these.

These incredible expressions of volcanic soil and crazy fruit coming out of a volcano that literally right now is still erupting, I think is an interesting parallel to the book, because I think it's. It flips everything you thought you knew about wine on its head. And it did that to me.

The intent I spoke earlier about not speaking about the notes of wine. I speak about the intent of the wine, and I think the intent of the book, in many ways, is to perhaps do something similar.

It's embracing the beauty of history and religion, but perhaps flipping it on its head a little bit and saying, let's think about this from all sides, right? There's two sides to every soul and person, just as there's much two sides to every story. And I think the same is true with terroir and fruit.

I think I'm proud of my answer, and I think I'm going to stick to it. And I love the question.

So, yes, so it's Sicilian wine. Any Sicilian wine from the hills of Mount Etna.

And if I were to have to get down to a varietal, it even could be a zabibo or a Norello Masculese. Norello Masculese. Of course, I didn't think a wine could do that.

And if I could pursue anything, I didn't think you could take a twist on history when of course you can. You know, history is. And literature is not gospel. Nothing is. Nothing's written in stone. And I think these are all up to interpretation, so why not?

Have at it?

Great job. Now you can use that question on the road, and it's in your book tours. I don't even credit for coming up with that question.

Oh, 100 going to give you credit. Sip with Nikki. That was the question.

I have the great fortune of having a lot of these conversations, and that is the coolest question that has been thrown my way. Seriously, I love that I'm going to bore people to tears about this later tonight over dinner. But you won't believe this question.

My wife and my daughters will be rolling their eyes even more when I start to get how excited I am about this question. Conversation.

It's just how we think about things. Right. And you are in two very different worlds, but that have so many parallels between them with storytelling and time capsule and all of that.

So it's a great way to kind of loop it all back together with that, for sure.

And it was funny. People talk about the relationship between the book and the wine.

And, you know, I'm the first to say you talk about Sangiovese, you know, before the book, even people come to the winery. That's exactly right. And. And that's my first thing. I get the tours and they're coming, and I say, okay, Sangiovese. Let's talk about Sang.

Anybody know what it means? Anybody study Latin?

And this idea of the blood of Job and the blood of Jupiter and the mythology behind his spilt blood and from which the first Tuscan vines produce this incredible fruit.

Come on, we're nerds. We're nerds.

And I'm with mythologists is what we are.

I got, like, one or two last questions, and I want to be respectful of your time. So this book released on March 3rd, so exactly two weeks ago. Right. If I'm doing my correctly, how has that been?

And how is it now to be, like, making the rounds and doing the interviews? And I know you're at, like, a bookstore on Thursday or something that I saw where you're doing an appearance. So.

So how are you enjoying that piece of it?

It's funny. How old am I? 55.

And what I have loved about this process, not necessarily the writing process, but the bringing it to market process, is I'm a wreck every day. I love the fact that I'm sweating and I'm nervous and I'm a total fish out of water. And to be this far out of my comfort zone, I think is a blast.

And so regardless how well the book does or if the book's any good, I'm forever grateful for just being so rejuvenated by being so nervous and so just, oh my God, this is crazy. And I think that's wild. And it cast my mind back to when I first jumped into the wine space. A similar thing.

I think back on some of those early panels on wine dinners that I've done and I think, ooh, man, if I could take some of that narrative back, maybe I would. And hopefully I won't look back on these conversations that have the same thing, but I do. I love this. Very refreshing. It's like a.

It's like a polar plunge into freezing cold waters. It's my first book. This is my first rodeo.

And I love the fact that even jumping on these zooms and doing live radio breakfast shows in Wisconsin, oh my God, that's nerve wracking. Who would have thought?

I think it's great my listeners know this because this is the theme of my life and reinventing myself from the corporate world and Disney to wine and even this podcast you and I were talking about, I'm like, I'm a one woman show. Like, I figured out how to record this. I'm nervous every day. I'm like, oh my God, I hope the file saves.

Now I have to edit it so my listeners know the two themes I think that you and I have in common. And from one to another, I nod to you. One is it's a cliche, but it's so true. And I've learned this in my 50 years. I'm right behind you. 50 This year.

Happy birthday.

It's those type of injury we want to vomit and when we're sweaty and when we are most uncomfortable, that we grow the most. I know it sounds like a bumper sticker, but man, it's so true.

When I look back at times where I've just jump in and have no idea what the f I am doing, that is when I have grown and learned the most. And I think I'm paraphrasing, that's what you are living right now. And it's okay to be more than one thing.

We don't have to be just an ad executive or just a winery owner, winemaker, or just an author. We can be multiple things. And. And I just, I see you and I commend you for that.

And it's not always easy and it's hard to turn our brain off when we are all these things. But look at what you're doing. How exciting. Congratulations.

And it's fun. And you brought up just the word uncomfortable. Like, to me, a promoting one's own thoughts in book format.

It's an uncomfortable journey, but it's relevant because the book itself is intentionally uncomfortable. There's discomfort is paramount in the book.

This is an uncomfortable conversation around crucifixion and crime and punishment, all that sort of stuff.

So I feel like, okay, here we go. This is a different conversation.

Exactly. So sweat it out.

Yeah. Yeah. It wasn't uncomfortable at all. And you are a pleasure and a joy.

And I'm just so excited to hear how the rest of the release goes and all of your appearances and the climb hopefully up the New York Times bestseller. And again, thank you so much for this beautiful wine.

Absolutely. And I can't wait to try your Sangiovese. So we have to share and raise our glasses together.

That's my Italian for primary meaning joyful and uplifted, secondary meaning relieved and no longer worried.

Oh, interesting. You are coming into your 50s. I like it. This is perfect for that. You're over that. You're like you like. I'm over it.

And I don't care what anybody thinks.

That's another way.

This is fantastic. I will order a case right now, please.

Oh, thank you so much.

I think we covered a lot of great ground. I think this was a great conversation.

I'm thrilled to have met you and to have been on your show and really, I can't wait to meet you in person and carry on the conversation.

Cheers. Congratulations.

Cheers. Salute.

Back home. Cheers.

You know, I really do believe that because of doing this podcast for the last two years and 100 some odd episodes, I have met some amazing, intriguing, exciting, relatable people all over the world that I never would have met if it wasn't for Sip with Nikki.

So that has been so cool for me and I hope, as a listener, for you to now have someone like Daniel Grace on your radar in the wake of Golgotha is available on Amazon right now, both Hard Copy and if you're a Kindle reader like me, so check it out there. You can also Visit his website, danielmarkgrace.com to learn a little bit more as well as follow him on Instagram at danielmarkgrace.

The website for the winery is Il Molino de Grace.

Molino is M O L I n o d grace d r a c e or grace as he says.it so il molino de grace.it I'll put all these links in the show notes and also on the episode page on my website, sipwithnikki.com look for his wine next time you're in a fine wine shop or scanning Italian wines on a menu. It really was delicious. Remember solovatowines.com to learn more about becoming a part of our inner circle.

And whatever you do between now and our next time together, I hope that you sip well. You.

Don't.