Jennifer Fugo, MS, LDN, CNS is a clinical nutritionist empowering adults who’ve been failed by conventional medicine to beat chronic skin and unending gut challenges. She has experience working with conditions such as eczema, psoriasis, rosacea, dandruff + hives — with clientele ranging from regular folks to celebrities + professional athletes. Jennifer is the founder of Quell skincare + supplements specifically for people struggling with these chronic skin issues.

She holds a Master’s degree in Human Nutrition from the University of Bridgeport and is a Licensed Dietitian-Nutritionist and Certified Nutrition Specialist. Her work has been featured on Dr. Oz, Reuters, Yahoo!, CNN, and many podcasts and summits. Jennifer is a faculty member of the LearnSkin platform, an Amazon best-selling author, and the host of the Healthy Skin Show.

Download your Root Cause Skin Test eGuide at skinterrupt.com

Head over to https://rebelhealthtribe.com/kit to get a free download of our loaded quick start guide to help you along your healing journey.  If you like us, subscribe, review, and share us with your friends, and come join our Rebel Health Tribe group on Facebook.

A Podcast Launch Bestie production

And we're live.

I am recording now with my good friend, Jen Fugo Jen.

Thanks for doing this.

Thank you for having me.

I'm excited for this.

This is like a totally different kind of conversation that I normally, yeah.

Yeah.

We found you on a couple of times to teach

us about skin and gut things.

And we're probably not going to talk a ton about that today.

So it'll be, it'll be fun.

This will be more like conversations we have, like we've had for the

last hour when we weren't recording.

Um, I've known Jen a long time.

Our audience probably.

Most people are familiar with your work, but if somebody's not, I'm

going to go through a little short introduction and then we'll get

right into your, your own story.

So Jen Fugo is a clinical nutritionist, empowering adults.

Who've been failed by conventional medicine to beat chronic skin

and unending gut challenges.

She has experienced working with conditions, such as eczema, psoriasis,

rosacea, dandruff, and hives with clientele ranging from regular folks to

celebrities and professional athletes.

She's the founder of quail skincare and supplements specifically for people

struggling with these chronic skin issues.

And she holds a master's degree in human nutrition from the

university of Bridgeport and is a licensed dietician, nutritionist

and certified nutrition specialist.

Her work has been featured on Dr.

Oz, Reuters, Yahoo, CNN, many podcasts and summits.

And she's a faculty member of the learn skin platform and Amazon best-selling

author and the host of healthy skin show.

Not a lot there and just a couple of pounds.

I didn't even realize you gotten your dietician license

yeah.

In Pennsylvania, you, when you register as a nutritionist, you become a

licensed, it's an LDN licensed diabetes.

And I saw

that and I'm like low dose naltrexone.

That's cool.

That's a lot of schooling.

I remember when you were in your master's program.

Um,

yeah, I almost quit.

I almost quit.

I glad that I pulled through.

I'm glad I had a really great study partner that was like, no, don't quit.

Um, I was actually, uh, talking today and I don't know if this'll just be

like slightly helpful for your audience, but I used to be the type of person

that would just I'd start things.

And then I would quit.

Um, and I felt like I was a really good, like a, what do

they call that personality type?

Like the quick starter personality type

that like,

The last, I would say maybe five years.

I have realized that when I used to say, that's the way that I am, it was almost

an excuse to not do the work that was necessary to stay the course of things

that I was really passionate about.

And now I can say that that's not the case for me because I have a

podcast that now is like 200 episodes.

So there's moments when I'm like high five, Jen, good job actually like learned

how to stay the course, see things through and continue the level of enthusiasm

you need to, um, you know, just make it ha it's not just like, just showing up.

It's like, I actually genuinely love what I do, which I feel

really grateful for.

It might have something to do with you finishing this thing.

Finishing the things that you actually liked, the no, but that you actually

liked the things that you're doing.

It leads to more finished.

It does.

It does.

Although I will admit that, like I loved what I was studying in school.

It was just so much, you know, like there's a lot of times in life where

you feel like you have this layer of every day stuff you gotta deal with.

And then you're like, oh, I'm going to do this.

And I'm going to do that.

No, I'm going to go back for a master's degree and I'm going to, and it gets

to a point where you're like, It's really hard because you feel like

you're being pulled in 1,000,001 directions and you started to say,

well, like what can I take off my plate?

And you begin to lose interest in things.

I at least start to become resentful when I'm pulled in

too many different directions.

I start to like get angry and.

I feel like my life and my time is not my own.

And, um, that's not, that's not a healthy,

I can absolutely relate.

And I am right now in two professional trainings, running two

businesses, launching one of them and planning an international move.

So I'm in that.

And then when I get resentful or angry, I am reminded lovingly that I am the one

who chose all of these things to be doing.

And so that, um, there's nobody to be resentful to my own choices.

So, um, there's lights at the end of the tunnel though, both my training's

over in the fall and the move.

And then I'm not allowed to sign up for any new things until next year.

So, um, luckily I have someone who keeps me in line in this

regard, so I totally get it.

And I'm glad you finished school too.

And, um, The podcast has been a huge success.

I know a lot of our people listen to it and I see posts about it

in our Facebook group sometimes.

And our own, usually people beat me to it.

Like I tag you or put your website when people post in our Facebook

group asking skin related questions.

And now it's got to the point where our people will usually

respond to it faster than I do.

And so we have really nice to hear people in our community that, that

link you in our group to your stuff.

When people ask for skin advice.

Well,

that makes me really happy because I can't do it myself.

As you know, like that's part of the reason why, like when you started, um,

you know, rebel health tribe was, is great because you have such a great community,

but you realize like in the grand scheme of things, we have so much control over

our life, but the truth is for ideas to spread and for change to really happen,

we have to work together as a community.

And so having a community that really does support and look out for

others around them, I think it's.

I think there is an importance in life to being somewhat selfish, but

in the same respect, we also have to look out for those around us and have

a, uh, a sense of like a stake in realizing that other people who are

ill, who are not well does impact us.

It might not be directly.

It might be, but it might not be.

Um, and could we do something even if it's just passing along one piece of

information or an article or a podcast or whatever, to it, it might not immediately

lessen that person's suffering, but it may open the door to a path that

they never even could have imagined.

So I just think that's really

cool.

Yeah, for sure.

Yeah.

Our group is super active.

I mean, it's, it's great.

Yeah.

People post questions and other people answered the questions and then I

stumbled upon the post four days later and it's already been solved.

So it's a very low-maintenance Facebook group to operate because they're so

proactive and knowledgeable themselves.

So it's great.

Um, and when we first met, I don't think you, you weren't skin, you

were gluten-free was your focus, which was your first step though,

in your, in your journey though.

Cause that was probably the first step you took back in your own journey.

That was like, oh, this makes a difference.

So, um, I'm curious on that evolution sort of, but more on like your own

evolution was, um, did you want to be like a nutritionist and health

person when you were growing up?

Was this an interest of yours?

No, not at all.

No.

Um,

only one to said yes to that question.

So far, it's funny.

I actually wanted to be a fashion designer, which is

something that I actually pursued.

I did end up pursuing.

I was very, um, gifted in science and in art when I was in high school

and to the point where I had the science and art science and art.

Yes.

And I had the like head biology professor in my school, my high school.

And then like the head of the art department who were like fighting over

where I was going to go to college and what I was going to, um, I, I did, I

was very proficient in both, um, with the exception of physics and chemistry.

I hated physics and chemistry.

And still to this day, chemistry is the bane of my existence, biochem.

I love, but not the chemistry, not so much.

And, um, I.

You know, I, I think to some degree I was sort of a sheltered kid

in that I lived in the suburbs.

I wasn't from the city.

I mean, we're not far from the city, but fashion design is a, it is an

incredibly toxic environment, which for anybody who's seen, like I wished

in hindsight, I had wished that I had read or the, the book devil wears Prada

had existed before I went to college.

I would've made a different choice because

it was very clothing industry.

Yes.

And when I read that after I graduated, I was like, oh wow.

I would've probably made a much different decision, but I love, I love history.

I love art history.

I, I really love design.

Um, I actually am a very proficient crochet or when I have time, I hate

knitting, but I love to crochet.

Uh, I learned as a child

and pretend like I know what the difference.

One hook

versus, and, um, I, that was what I wanted to do.

Uh, but nine 11 really like threw a huge wrench in that.

I mean, in hindsight, I, I don't know that I've ever said this before or

thought of it, but maybe I'm kind of grateful that that happened.

Just not, not in the grand scheme of things, obviously, because it was

horribly traumatic, but it did push me in a much different trajectory because

the fashion industry was kind of falling apart at that point because of what had

happened in New York, we had the super warm winter and I was forced to basically

go back home and my dad was a doctor.

And so I ended up working back.

I ended up working in healthcare, believe it or not as like his.

I guess an aid, so to speak.

I would work in the rooms with patients with him.

And I got to like see the disaster of a healthcare system that we have, and

just like how awful people's health, if their, um, health situations

where, cause he worked mostly with elderly folks, our population was

predominantly black and Hispanic.

And so I got to see firsthand just like, you know, diabetics coming in with like

missing part of their foot or part of a leg and, and just curiously asking

them like, Hey, um, what do you eat?

I don't know why I started asking now, but I was curious and they

would tell me, and they said that their doctor said that that was fine.

It was okay to drink gallons of diet soda every day.

And I was just so perplexed by the fact that no one was being encouraged otherwise

to take a more vested interest in their health and acting as if the food and

their dietary choices played no role.

And so it was just.

It was really hard to watch in a sense, because you're seeing these people who

are wonderful individuals and they're well-meaning, they just, they just

weren't given the greatest direction because that's the standard of care.

So it wasn't a thing growing up.

I'm going to do this.

I want to be interested in this.

And you explored some of your other avenues first, which I did too.

I was a teacher out of school actually.

Um, I taught high school for two years.

Well, almost two years, about a year and three quarters.

Um, yeah.

And then went back to the service industry cause I could make more

money working less hours bartending.

Then I could teaching which speaks volumes to the American educational system.

But, um, It was your own, I'm guessing there was a reason that you got pulled

towards this, this kind of work and the pattern I'm seeing so far in

recording these podcast episodes is that it might've had something to do

with how your own health was going and how your own life trajectory was.

Absolutely.

Well this time.

So I moved back home.

I have to, I have to go work for my parents, which was like, felt at

the time, like not a great thing.

I didn't want to move back home.

I wanted to be like in New York and I began.

So I'm seeing, you know, all of this pattern is happening with the

patients and whatnot and realizing the system not really messed up.

And I started about.

I guess a year or two later beginning to have like really bad health problems.

And, yeah, so I had moved back around 2004.

Um, I had, I had a pretty, and I'm not, I'm not necessarily shy about

this per se that I had, like, I really struggled after nine 11 mentally.

I was in times square when all of that went down and it,

it was my worst nightmare.

And so I had to leave New York city for a while, and I was not sure that

I was actually ever going to go back because I just was so traumatized by

everything that I saw and witnessed and everything I'd have nightmares.

And like, I couldn't, even for years, um, 4th of July was like hard.

I would like freak out and I didn't, I tried to be like, no, it's just

fireworks, but like, It just sounded like bombs going off, which, I mean,

that's essentially what they are,

but you

know, it just, it would elicit this response and cause

me to cry and be really upset.

It was just, you know, and so I did eventually go back, but I, it

wasn't what I wanted to do anymore.

And, um, anyway, so fast forward I had to move home.

Um, I didn't know what I was going to do with my life.

I spent the last, like four years planning on this one thing and I'm working

for my parents, which was not great.

And so I started to have worsening diarrhea and gas and bloating

and feeling really exhausted.

I had blood work done and my doctor who's great.

I love him, but he like, didn't know what to make of it.

He's just like, you look fine and I didn't feel fine.

I knew something was wrong.

Like stomach problems run in my family.

So it just kind of felt like it was normal to have to go

to the bathroom after you eat.

And, um, I just couldn't get anywhere.

I wasn't feeling better.

I was probably also over-exercising and I think that was partially a way

to cope with feeling out of control.

Like, I didn't know what I was doing in my career, in my life.

I had no trajectory.

Um, I just didn't really have a plan.

Um, and that was the one thing I felt like I could really control

is like, I could go to the gym for four hours and that's too much.

I'm going to tell you now that's just too much.

Um, and so I ended up a cousin of mine is really into, um, holistic health in LA.

And I went out to stay with her for about a week and she connected me

with a nutritionist who was this.

Uh, these are not normal symptoms.

And then like, ask me, like, do you know what gluten is?

I've never heard of gluten before.

And I'm like, um, you want me to cut out all the foods that like, I'm Italian?

Like what?

So I, I did it, I did do it.

And I noticed a huge improvement in my symptoms within just like three days.

It wasn't like a miracle, but it was pretty substantial for me to stop

eating gluten, um, in a short period of time because it stopped a lot of

the GI distress that I was having.

And, um, that's where I started to dig in and realized that I had

to make some different choices.

And that was honestly the moment.

I started caring a lot more about what those patients were

doing beyond their medication.

Like I started asking questions that I would've never asked before, because

now I'm reading these books and reading websites and, and, and, and looking at my

health in a, such a different way that I never, it never occurred to me that, you

know, I knew something was wrong, like in telling someone, oh, you're diabetic

have some, like, I don't know, corn flakes with milk and banana before you go to bed,

that's a good bedtime snack as a diabetic.

I mean, now I'm like, oh my gosh, that's a disaster.

But, but these are recommendations that patients would tell me.

They were told

my dad has been insulin dependent type two diabetics since 1998.

So I'm very familiar with the eat, whatever you want.

Just put more insulin in your shot at advice that he got from his doctor.

If you eat a bunch of candy or other crap, you just put extra insulin in the thing.

And I was.

This is not good advice.

I knew that in 1998, when I was in college, I didn't study nutrition at all.

Just something about that.

He's like, yeah, doctor says I can eat whenever I want.

I just needed to put more insulin in my shot.

And I'm like, I don't think that's true, but I'm a freshman

in college and he's a doctor.

So like maybe, and then later on I learned that it's definitely not true.

And then I would, and it took a long time, but he finally, um, stopped

doing that, which is really exciting.

But, uh, yeah, I've seen, and then even within like the diabetes, I

don't know the right organization to throw under the bus right now, but

the, the, the, the association that tells them what to do, we'll have

like a fundraising event with crispy.

Oh, yeah.

Let me, let me tell you.

So when I did eventually start my master's in nutrition, I took a, okay.

I admit I was trying to save some money.

So I went to a local community college for this one, like

introductory to nutrition class.

It was like a required prerequisite.

It was taught by an, an RD and listen, I don't, I'm not throwing RDS under the bus.

I have a ton of friends that are RDS, who think really

creatively and are awesome people.

So it's not all RDS, but the RD, this RD was like a diabetic educator.

And she said in our class that sugar consumption and simple carb

consumption is not responsible at all for causing diabetes and.

Dad, you're a doctor.

What do you think about this?

And he's like, she's absolutely wrong.

I don't know why on earth.

She would be teaching people that, and that's really concerning that.

She's a diabetic educator saying that.

So I got this like awful information from this class.

Fortunately, the program, um, I went to, I found through Rob Wolf's

website and it was just like a list of programs that would think kind of

differently, like more integratively.

And, uh, the, it was the university of Bridgeport, which they still

have a really great nutrition and it's, and it's accredited.

It's a great school.

Um, I really enjoyed the program.

It was hard, but, um, I, it really changed the whole process of.

I have never had severe, severe, severe, severe health issues.

Like some of the people that I've worked with, um, I've coped with a lot

of stuff in terms of like, I've, I've certainly had my fair share of like

mental health issues throughout my life.

Not in a way that I would say, you know, I've told people even, even on my

podcast and such like I was, I was on antidepressants earlier in my life and

my late teens, early twenties, because I have, I had, I think it's much better now.

I think, I think my husband would agree.

Um, I did have really pretty intense issues with OCD and trichotillomania.

And so I didn't realize that until pretty late in my life.

I don't think that that necessarily played a role in where I am now, but

it's helped me better understand.

You know how people get lost in the process, um, and just being handed

medications and not being told any of the side effects that can happen.

Um, I mean the one thing that I have come to learn about myself is that, and I think

this goes back to that high school piece of like, what did I, what was I, what did

I Excel at was creative, being creative.

And also having this introspection of asking, like, what are the

processes that allow for life to be sustained and created and all of

this stuff that I'm so interested in.

And, um, I couldn't do that with antidepressants.

I actually almost failed out of school in college as a result of taking them.

So, um, yeah, my story is a little bit all over the place,

but I will say that in my life.

I, I have witnessed such as, and, and, and having been a patient myself

and having worked in healthcare.

And I'm sure your wife can relate to this.

You get lost in a system and it's very difficult to find your way through it.

And sometimes out of it, um, I got to work in medical billing.

I got to work in the rooms.

I got to figure out how to connect with doctor's offices, because I worked for

my dad and saw what he went through.

But in my own journey, I saw this, these problems.

I want to put that in air quotes, because I think I don't want to label them as bad.

They're not necessarily bad.

It's just part of my story, my journey of, of growing up and realizing that

I was different than other people.

And it was okay.

It was okay to be.

Cool.

I was, but unfortunately the way that it was seen within the medical community

was either here's a pill for that, right?

So, oh, you have OCD.

You can't get out of your house in the morning without spending three

hours, checking everything and doing all these things and whatnot, and you

can't function like a normal person.

So here's a pill for that.

That just kind of endless.

I don't, I'm not against, I also want to say I'm not against

antidepressants or medications.

Everybody's journey is different for me.

It did not work.

It actually made my OCD and the trichotillomania problems even worse.

Um, so I think everyone is entitled to their own journey and their own

choices, but I never got resolution or clarity on why these things were

happening as a result of just seeking out.

Like, here's my labs.

What do you think doc?

It was always like, you look fine.

Maybe you're just you, maybe you're just stressed.

I've been told maybe I was too stressed.

Maybe I just need more B vitamins.

Maybe I need to stop working out so much.

Which was probably true.

I'd probably

did.

Yeah.

Four hours, four hours of training is a lot.

Yeah.

and so you said you didn't have any severe things, but I could, I would argue

that, um, those OCD related issues, some pretty significant digestive issues.

Um, I'm guessing there is some skin problems in there.

Uh, so eczema, digestive issues, OCD.

Um, I would guess that those things probably disturbed your

piece of wellbeing and like life.

In general, those are all things that affect many aspects of life.

Um, from you mentioned taking a long time to leave the house, but also, uh,

digestive responses to meals is, um, not the most convenient thing ever.

I'm sure that I know how I had pretty severe acne in like my teens

into early twenties, ish years.

And I know what that was like to go through.

It's different than eczema, but still, um, I remember the feeling

of going in rooms and hoping nobody looks at my face and that sucks and

affects quality of life quite a bit.

So I think if you, um, snowball all of those things into one ball,

that's quite a bit of life impact

while I would agree with you.

I also work with people whose situations with their health

are so drastically worse.

I just

want it.

I think it's all relative.

I think if you really are trying to do is to not put your, to not put

yourself in that same level of someone who like can't get out of bed or can't.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I get it.

Um, it's just, um, I've found that most people in this industry,

didn't, I'm kind of an anomaly.

I didn't have health issues.

Like I had skin issues when I was in like teens twenties.

Um, I haven't, I.

Mural always complaints.

I have an iron stomach, so like I can eat anything.

Um, I don't have any real health issues and I haven't, despite my

best efforts for about 15 years to get as many of them as I could.

I lived like if I wanted to mark off every box of how you could get

sick or unhealthy, I did all the things a lot for about 15 years and

my body's just extremely resilient.

And so I didn't have health issues that flipped me into this field.

It was more like I started, I went to grad school to my

late twenties, which was hard.

Um, funny how that works.

You mentioned your grad school was hard.

Mine was also hard.

And I was like, why is this so hard?

And my roommate at the time was like, you're in a master's program.

I think it's supposed to be hard.

And I was like, oh, and mine was in 11 months.

Like it was accelerated program and 11.

And so I didn't do anything else.

I did like school all day, every day, and it was mostly physiology

minds and exercise physiology.

So it was mostly just physiology stuff, some statistics, which is the one BI I got

in grad school was my statistics class.

But, um, I got into that because I wanted to work with athletes and I realized

right away that I didn't want to do that.

Like that took me.

That was probably the fastest I've ever figured out.

I don't like something.

And it was about two weeks and I was like, what the hell am I going to do now?

Because now I have this master's degree and I don't want to do the thing.

And I started to do some training for people who had back issues,

back pain surgery, like people who were really deconditioned or

injured and wanted to function.

And I found that really.

Like I enjoyed helping somebody like get to the point where they could

walk up the stairs when they couldn't before, rather than helping somebody

like jump a little higher or something.

And that led me to nutrition, which led me to functional

medicine, which led me to whatever.

Cause my clients kept getting more and more complex and complex and complex.

And then I have like, I need to understand brain and there's

an infinite rabbit holes.

You can jump down in this field.

And so I just kept getting from like fitness to nutrition, to functional

medicine, et cetera, et cetera.

I never had health issues and I'm like the weird anomaly.

And I always thought like, Why am I in this?

And I didn't have health issues.

And what I realized is that my health issues were depression and anxiety

and those kinds of things, which I only figured out in the last few

years, and now I'm going through trainings to work in that area.

And like, that's really my jam.

And I was just waiting to realize what my thing was really.

And I was carrying that the whole time I was doing all that other stuff and I

just didn't realize it so I can relate to the mental health piece quite a bit.

And how that's often, like you just push through that and do

your normal life like I did.

And, um,

you know what I'll say about that though, too?

I think a lot of times we are conditioned to think we have,

that's what I mean, like in this society, it's just something

that like, oh, everybody deals with that.

Just go ahead and do your things.

And it's like, everything's hard.

Everything.

When you feel like shit, everything is hard.

Like, that was just like when I was anxious, going to a place

and doing a thing was hard.

When I was super depressed, like doing really basic things was hard,

I will say too.

Um, and I don't know why I did this.

I have no idea why, but when I was in high school, this counselor

came around to each one of our Q imagine like a county counselor.

You know, she's like, I'm unaffiliated with the school, but I'm here.

If you want to talk.

And for some reason, I, well, in my school we did and I went to talk to her.

And I think one of the reasons that, well, I'm really grateful now that I

did, I, I feel like I started, I self chose therapy and I self chose the

person that I started that process with at, uh, I think I was like 15 or 16.

I was pretty, no, it was just, I didn't have any friends.

Um, I didn't, I wouldn't say I was zero.

I had zero friends.

That, that would be a lie to say that, but I was very ostracized.

I was very different.

I was, I dealt with a lot of bullying.

I did not fit in.

Um, I felt very alone as a teenager.

A lot of, it was like the OCD issue.

Um, and so, and then we had a lot of things, you know, just going on at home

that were very difficult to cope with.

And, um, a lot of family dynamics and things.

I mean, I come from a pretty, I guess, traditional Italian American family.

My, my parents are literally second generation in this country.

And so, um, there was a lot of dynamics that were very difficult to deal with.

My sister was always like more popular than me and I'm the older

sister and I just never fit in.

I think I, there was always these ideas of how my life should be, but it

never, ever even came close to that.

And then I did things to myself.

Like I dyed my hair black and I would dress strange.

And like I did it intentionally and I got to the point where.

It took a long time, a long, long time of losing friends, of being humiliated

in front of people, um, being made fun of and all sorts of things for

me to realize that the words that people would say in the worst moments

of like, you know, being in a class of like 25 kids and being literally

humiliated, they had no power over me and when it didn't have any power and

I could like kind of throw a Quip back,

it was the end of that conversation because that person was seeking.

It was really a power

struggle and they don't get out of it.

What they're trying to get by

doing it right now.

Did that necessitate me like, did that mean like I want I'm great.

I'm I'm good.

No, I mean, I, I literally still remained in therapy.

I actually started, I didn't know that I had OCD.

I watched as good as it gets with my parents.

And I'm at the end of the movie I'm standing there.

Yes.

I was sitting there and I look at my parents are on the couch and I'm like,

do I see D like, literally I had no idea, never heard of this in my parents

look at one another like, oh, oh.

And it spawned this whole family.

Right.

It's fine.

This whole conversation.

I started going to see a behavioral psychologist that

then got me to a psychiatrist.

And then I started Zoloft.

I freaked out on Zoloft.

So they changed it to Paxil, I think.

And then at one point I was moved

to excellent.

What gave Joe brains apps?

Oh, ask him about that next time you talked to him.

Yeah.

And then I was on Prozac and then I moved to New York to go to college.

And then the doctor, uh, the psychiatrist in New York just kept

increasing the amount of Prozac that I was on because I was getting more

angry, more depressed, more isolated.

Um, And

depressants for OCD.

So one of the treatments for, for, well, mine was a combo

of OCD and trichotillomania.

Basically, it's a cousin of, um, OCD and that there's

different things that can happen.

So you can have, um, hair pulling skin picking.

Like I still, I still pick this thing quite a bit.

And I talked about that on the healthy skin show.

Cause like it's something talking about this right now is not the

most natural thing for me to talk about, but I know it's important

for people to know that like you're not alone in all of this, but I.

Could not function.

Like I had a really difficult time.

I couldn't like get going in the morning.

It would take me out.

Like I cannot stress how many hours I could not get out of the bathroom.

I lived with like six roommates and that made it even worse.

There was so many stressors that I, it was very difficult for me to just function.

Um, and so yes, they do at the time, this was back in like, I guess around 2000.

So they were treated, I don't know if that's still the case now, but they would

use like a combination of behavioral therapy and, uh, antidepressants to try

to get you to like, to lessen the urge.

It didn't work, like put a rubber band on your wrist and snap it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's not going to work.

Let me tell you right now, um,

tase myself.

Um, yeah, like, okay, so that's twenties, twenties, and then you just started

seeing those people in your like teens twenties college in New York time.

And.

By the time you are working with your family.

Uh, a lot of that had been improved, resolved, same medicated, still

struggling.

I only stayed on medication for a year.

Um, and then at that

point you pulled the plug on that when you

realize you were getting worse.

I mean, I was failing school.

I couldn't do my creative projects for school.

That's a

problem.

Yeah.

Unfortunately like the creates and I've learned to embrace this.

I've recently found out the last few years that I have like

severe add like really bad.

And I never knew, like, I always looked at it as something other people

dealt with, but I could never focus on anything and concentrate for two seconds.

And I was like squirrel and, um, I never put two and two together.

And then when I discovered it, I said something to mirror,

like, do you think I have add?

And she's like, same way your parents reacted.

Like, no, I don't think

holy crap.

Cause I'm, I'm in a training Dr.

Guevara Monte's training and he has a book on add, and we had to read

his books as part of the curriculum.

And I'm reading this book and I'm like, Okay, check, check, check,

check, check, check, check, check, check, check, check, check, check.

All checks.

And I'm like, oh, I have this.

And that actually helped me kind of have a little more compassion for myself, like

getting the diagnosis and things, because then it made things make sense on like

why I had certain issues and whatever, but I know they would have bombarded

me with all kinds of things to take.

Um, if I was a kid in school age now, for sure.

And, um, they're usually stimulants and if I over caffeinate myself, not

good, usually people on add, I guess you over-caffeinated yourself on purpose.

Cause then it like does some sort of a reverse dynamic tier system.

So I know that I would have bombed on the, the medication as well.

And if they give people with add sedatives, like, I don't want to

say sedatives, but antidepressants are kind of lessons or everything.

People with add are highly creative and then they're not like you can't

choose what you're going to muffle.

Like, so for those drugs, like you said, you were creative and

then you weren't, even if it was helping your other symptoms,

which it may have, but it wasn't.

But sometimes it does, but it's, non-selective like you can't selectively

numb the things it's all or nothing.

And, um, for some people that trade off is great and necessary and

essential, and it helps them survive.

And I also don't want to be seen as throwing antidepressants under the bus.

Um, but I just know that anytime I've taken anything that's supposed

to like calm or numb or whatever.

I also can't, like you said, like, I couldn't, it's like my brain doesn't work.

Like I'm used to it working.

And I, I probably would have not fared well with anything like academic or,

um, creative, especially creative.

If your schooling was involving anything creative or like creative problem solving,

like in those times I just kind of stare,

right.

And you would stay, I would stare at the paper and I'd be

like, what am I supposed to do?

And everything was gray, the color.

I felt like the color and the intricacy of, of what creativity is

had just dissolved into grayness.

And I couldn't, I couldn't complete projects.

I didn't complete my final, which I got an F on.

And I know, and so I went to the psychologist, I'll never

forget our last session.

And I said, look, I can't keep doing this is not working.

Right.

I'm also getting angrier, um, like fighting with my roommates.

I'm really agitated.

And she's like, oh, well, you know what we need to do.

We need to put you on a mood stabilizer.

So maybe let's add in some Wellbutrin.

And I'm like, no, That like, I've hit my point.

We're not adding in more medication to stabilize my mood.

This isn't even helping me feel any better.

And so I called my dad and, um, I feel really lucky that my dad was a doctor.

And I said, dad, I don't know how to get off of this medication.

I know I can't stop it.

Cold Turkey.

Cause I was taking a pretty high, I was like almost at the max

dose of Prozac that you can take.

And so he helped me step down and get off of it.

Um, but I wasn't medicated for a long while and I just sort of muscled through

and I did have, I did still struggle with things, but when I got out of school, I

started doing like, I started working with a life coach and that really helped me.

I think better find a place of empathy for myself because

understanding what I had, it was helpful and refreshing in the moment.

But I didn't know anybody else like myself, I didn't know a single soul.

What I.

Experience, and I'm sure other people can relate to this.

I felt alone and I felt a level of shame about who I was and why I would

do these things that I couldn't control.

Like people don't understand when you say I can't not do this, they

don't get it because it really doesn't rationally make sense.

My boyfriends wouldn't understand why it would take me two hours just to get ready

in the morning and he didn't understand.

And I couldn't, I can't explain it.

I still, to this day, can't, I just would get stuck and lost in patterns.

And it was so destructive to me being a functional human being.

Um, but at a certain point I had, I had to take a step out of all of that.

And I don't know if going through the trauma of nine 11, um, forcing

me out of these incredibly stressful.

Environments and also working to like start confronting some

of the issues and the anger.

And also realizing that I used anger as like, I was scared.

I was afraid I was shame.

I felt ashamed, but I would lash out in anger to try to protect myself.

That was like my wall in my weapon to be able to use against people

who I felt were getting too close.

Um,

so here's almost always a secondary emotion.

It's always like a, it's a superficial secondary emotion.

Cause it's safer.

It's like a safety thing because to express the thing underneath

the anger is way more, it's

way more vulnerable.

It's way more scary.

I mean, even to have this conversation, I've never really talked about this

on a podcast before I talked about it on a little bit, but I also

recognize that there are people going through certain things.

And especially like, like you said, you'd never heard of some of these issues.

So there's, I, I F I apologize.

I have the podcast on skin picking and I don't, I think it's Derma Tila, mania.

I think when you pick your skin and a lot of people do that, like

you, like, even people will, like, sometimes men will pick at their beer.

They'll start pulling out hair is unconsciously.

like I would throw my eyelashes and it like pulls the eyelid

off the eyeball and makes this little sound, I would do it like to the point

where the teachers would have to come by and like stick my hand on the desk.

And they're like, I can't not do

it.

There's these compulsive behaviors that are really difficult.

I don't have any grand message or like solution to any of this.

I just know

that came out of this guy and all these things that evaporated.

No, I mean, I I'm 41.

If, if it's going to happen, it's still some

time.

Well, I'm curious.

That is a lot, like at the beginning.

And I totally get, you're not wanting to compare yourself to

somebody who can't get out of bed.

That's a lot, that's like, that's a lot of stuff you've thrown a lot

of stuff down here that you are dealing with between the digestive

issues and the OCD related stuff.

And the phase of the medication, the feeling isolated, which is

probably the worst of all of those things is feeling totally alone.

Like you said, nobody is like me and not being seen or understood.

And people think you're weird or they just like, just don't do the thing, like really

simple, like telling a heroin addict, just stop using heroin and you'll be fine.

Um, that type of approach is like patronizing.

Like it's makes things worse.

It makes you feel more like you're crazy, all these things and a burden.

And uh, like just these people have to deal with me or whatever.

And, um, the lashing out.

As a cover.

And, um, the venue might not like being called out on that

being a cover right now, but, um, cover, anger's always a cover.

So I can tell you the reason I'm still still carrying on the conversation.

I was like, is this, cause I can tell that you've done a lot of work around

it and you can handle talking about it.

So, I mean, I'm not trying to, you said you haven't talked

about this on a podcast.

I'm not trying to get you to the point where you don't ever want to

come on anything, but I can tell you've done a lot of work around it.

So, so your audience and I also know you.

And so one thing that Mike and I feel really grateful, I've known

my husband since high school.

We were friendly in high school.

And so he heard a lot of the things that people would say about me and like the

comments and things, he, he was aware.

And so it's not like he doesn't know.

Um, where I've been, you know what I mean?

And where I've come from.

And, and the one thing that's been really great as he is increasingly encouraged me.

He's like, you got to start getting out of your comfort zone of being

so used to pretending like the past doesn't exist, at least in how you,

like, it's hard with like skin stuff.

People don't necessarily, it's not necessarily like, so I don't know.

Maybe I'm thinking it's not as connected.

Maybe that's a defense mechanism.

I don't know.

Um, I've talked about the skin picking issue, cause that is, that is important.

A lot of people with rashes do pick at their skin as a result

of it, but it is important.

I recognize, and I wish that I knew someone who had the same

issue as me when I was younger.

Like when I found out that Olivia Munn also, so she's an actress.

I don't know her, but I read that she had issues with trichotillomania and

I was like for the first time, Wait, this famous actress has this issue.

And she's like there she did, because I had no sense that I could accomplish

anything because I felt so I'm going to nicely use the word damaged.

I would probably use a harsher word, but I don't know what your,

your life, but you get the point.

Like, I did not feel like I ever had any value and I was

constantly living in this state.

Like these things aren't possible for me.

Like I'm limited to this little thing as possible for me, which isn't very much

didn't know until that moment when I found that out, I was

like, if she can do that, if she can like go on TV and be in a movie and

do all this stuff, and she has the same thing, then what's stopping me.

And so, like I said, my husband's encouraged me.

To share with people, especially people that I'm friendly with and stuff if they

don't like you, if they're going to judge you or make a nasty comment about you,

like then they're not really your friend,

this isn't good self identifier.

It is, it is.

And no one who I've ever told has ever come back to me and been

like, oh, well, blah, blah, blah.

Some of these people have questions and I'm okay with that because you know what?

It is different.

You might not know what it is.

You might not have heard of it.

And you might, it might actually help explain what's going on for someone who

you do know that it is confusing, you don't get what's going on with them.

And now all of a sudden you're like, oh, so, um, I don't, I've done a lot of work.

More people accept you knowing XYZ.

It's easier to accept yourself too.

Like, it shouldn't be like that.

Shouldn't be linked.

Well, throwing shit in quotes, like everything's intrinsic

and it comes from within.

And it's, you know, like how you said that at some point in.

Middle finger to the bullies and then their power went away.

The same thing goes for like other people's approval or acceptance or like

whatever shouldn't technically matter.

But the more people that like see you for you and know your things and your

quirks and your weird whatevers, and they're like, cool, let's go out to lunch.

Uh, that part of you that's concerned about like, what are they going to think,

or how are they going to, you know, it can kind of chill out a little bit.

And then that gets reinforced that this is okay.

And also too.

So he was, that was good advice.

I think.

So I will also, I will also recognize that the more

that I embrace what's different about me, the more it's okay.

For me.

Like it has nothing to do with anyone else.

Just what's.

Okay.

What I see is okay about myself, the more I realize I can put the energy into.

Helping others and doing what I really love to do.

And if someone doesn't like it, that's fine.

I don't really care.

I'm not going to spend energy, trying to convince someone that I'm

valuable or I'm worth it or whatever.

I think I've spent enough of my life being like having my self-worth tied to could

I get through the day without someone humiliating me, I've lived enough of that.

I'm good.

Um, and at this point, like, yeah.

Do I still have issues that come up?

Absolutely.

Um, I know my mom has a lot of.

I don't think shame probably guilt is the right word.

Cause she didn't know how to help me as a kid.

And I, I didn't know how much she had actually tried to do.

She had reached out to a lot of organizations and all sorts of stuff.

I mean, this is like the eighties, you

know, like, yeah, there wasn't the internet, anybody

under 30, there wasn't the internet,

no internet.

So she's writing letters or typing letters and getting pamphlets and making phone

calls going in yellow pages.

It's a book that used to have phone numbers.

Yes.

And

yellow pages.

You know, I didn't realize how much of a burden it was to her too.

And I didn't realize that until I was probably in my thirties

that my mom, it was also really traumatic and hard for my mother.

And she, even to this day will be like, I'm so sorry.

I mean, she's like 70 something, you know, like she's, I'm so sorry

that this happened to you and that I couldn't help you more.

And I'm like, mom, you just have to let it go.

You did your best.

And that's all you could do.

I know one is given the, the, the, like a book to figure out how to help somebody

who's dealing with something like this.

If I was a completely quote unquote normal person, and I didn't have any

of this, I might not be where I am.

I probably wouldn't be around today, but I have a lot of empathy for people

who feel very alone on their journey, likely because of what I went through.

Um,

And that's essential for the work that you're doing now.

Yeah.

It'd be like the champ.

Like I feel like sometimes I'm like, I'm the cheerleader?

I'm like,

well, no, one's going to say anything to you on a console call.

You're going to be like E I don't know about wanting to work with you because

you've been on the other side of that.

Like you've, you know, like it's, um, that, that harsh judgment and

some of it I'm sure it was real.

And some of it was projected like you would just project, oh, they

think this about me or whatever, too.

But then there also was the ruthless people and all of that, but that

feeling of aloneness and feeling of damaged, and that you're limited and

that you can't do XYZ things like.

Having that experience enables you to meet people that are in that space

in a way that someone who hasn't had that experience can't do it.

And that's a gift in what you're doing now.

So it's an essential thing.

It's something I see lacking in a lot of health practitioners across the spectrum

of, from doctors to nutritionists, to health coaches, whatever.

Um, I've run into several who may be brilliant at like the

biochemistry and the physiology.

And they're just not capable of like seeing the person they're talking to

as a person, as a human being with all of these things rolled into it instead

of just like lab results and a number and a robot that they need to figure

out a formula to give them a protocol based on a lab test to do this thing.

And I think that you will not struggle with that.

Um, cause it's now built.

Yeah, it gets, it's built in like, if

you, yeah.

It's a part of who I am now.

I don't know.

I don't know if it's in my DNA.

I don't know.

I don't know what it is, but it is a part of who I am and

well, that part of you that went through it, we'll see

that in others too, it gets a kind of like, uh, like seeing like, um, thing.

And they can feel that too.

Like a lot of the work that I've done over the last two years has been

energy-based and trust me if you're listening to this and you're like

energy, food, whatever three years ago from now, if you'd have brought that

up, I would have said the same thing.

And then I've had a lot of experiences and witnessed and experienced a lot of

things that have shifted me, but on an energetic level, which I'll keep it light.

Um, it's like when you walk into a room and you're like, this place is awesome

or you walk into a room and you're like, yeah, I don't want to be in here.

And nobody's centered on anything yet.

That is an energetic intuition that you pick up from the space and from

individuals there's people you'll meet.

And they might be saying really nice words to, and then inside your something is

like, eh, gross, get me away from this.

And, um, that's energetic intuition and with one-on-one relationships, whether

it's professional or not, um, there's a connection on that level as well.

And just having that, that you have that aspect, that's been through the

ringer, as far as I don't belong.

And people telling you, you don't belong and I'm limited, and I'm a

burden and I'm all these things.

The part of them that feels that way can tell that you're like an ally that

you're safe, that you can see that whether they mentally think about it

or consciously think about it or not.

I'm learning that in the work that I'm doing, that this is something

that's like picked up subtly.

And so I think that you're, well-served by what you've been through because.

You can bring that to the table.

So I am curious, uh, sorry about that rant.

It's just something I felt was important to, to share that.

I don't know if you realize that, but it's a gift that you'll then have

that you can transmit without trying, just by having been through the fire.

Um, and I'm curious, you've obviously made a lot of progress

with a lot of these things.

Your skin looks great.

Your digestive issues you've told me are like in the past, when

we've shared things like better.

And, um, I don't know if you still take two hours to get ready to go somewhere,

still, all of that type of stuff.

So like in short, I don't want, we don't have a ton of time left and I

don't want to get into like teaching XYZ protocol things, but like, what

were the big needle movers for you?

And.

At what point did you realize, like maybe that bubble of limitation

that you had put on yourself?

I can't do this.

I can't do that.

Like, wasn't real.

I will say that, um, a lot of, uh, so a lot of the talk, I don't want to

say therapy per se, but like being very conscious about meeting with someone and

being held accountable by someone on like a weekly, sometimes twice a week basis.

I did twice a week for six months.

I it's, there's no shame.

There was somebody for six months, twice a week, six or four.

I left San Diego a couple of years ago and it's what I needed.

And

there have also been, um, there's been a lot

of moments where I've had to.

Like, I've got a, I try my best in every situation.

When I get frustrated now to say, what did I potentially do

to contribute to this situation?

Whether it's in my business or my life, or whatever, to try to

really make sure that I'm taking responsibility for my end of things.

Um, and not resorting back to old patterns as well.

Um, I do know I'm not going to say that.

I mean, I really poorly kid and a teenager and in my twenties, it

really is your favorite fast food taco

bell.

I did like talk about, I liked the, the, the potato wedges from KFC.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

What is your favorite snack food that you would add?

Monitor yourself for eating.

Jesus.

I don't.

So I can't say that, but I can tell you, I was a big honey bunch of

honey bunches of oats, cereal fan.

Like I used to have that every day for breakfast pretty much.

And then my mom would make like her pot, her pasta sauce, and I would make pasta.

Like, that was pretty much what I ate all the time fame.

My mom's maiden name is DeVito.

I grew up with plenty of pasta in the house too.

So I mean, it wasn't, I, I do think improving my diet

and such was really helpful.

And I do think that I do, I did see a pretty sizeable shift when I started to.

Um, more veal food.

Um, I do think that you can go too far and, you know, everybody

can find information on my feelings on access elimination,

diets, so you can look that up.

But, um, at the end of the day it was, I also had to do a lot of meditation.

I had to do a lot of soul searching, a lot of self work, um, to start

unraveling years and decades of, I mean, I was afraid to go to school.

I lost best friends.

I had best friends that humiliated me.

They were the ones that would humiliate me in front of people that like I, to this

day, have I can be in a room with them.

I can talk to them what I want to be friends with them.

Probably not.

I haven't, I haven't gotten that far.

I'm not perfect, but, um, It's been a lot of, of self inquiry,

um, and asking questions and say, what can I take responsibility for?

What can I forgive?

What can I acknowledge that I just didn't know enough at the time, and I know

better now, and I can do better now.

And that this is a journey that I can always try every single

day to show up a little better.

Um, but I mean, definitely the meditation and yoga helped.

I, I think you can go too far with that too, to some degree.

And I think I did for a while.

Um, but I got to a point where I found a much healthier balance and

I understand myself probably better.

Well, how do don't know?

How can you not better know yourself as you get older?

But I feel like I know myself,

you might be right about that.

But I do feel like at this point in time, I know I do feel like I know

myself the best, not like I know everything, but I love, I love.

The idea of realizing that I don't know everything and that I can be engaged

in conversations and be challenged in beliefs and the way things are so that

I can keep evolving who I am and the relationships that I have with people and

hopefully, and do my little tiny minuscule part to leave this world a better place.

And, you know, as far as like, I think people get too caught up in protocols

and wanting to know exactly what you did.

This is like 40 years.

I don't know.

There was a lot of like good things to happen and there are setbacks and there's,

I mean, I had nine 11 mixed in there.

I, I, you know, I don't, I don't know.

And other people have other really serious traumas that I've never experienced.

I think we're just all on a messy, beautiful journey I

think we all serve a purpose.

I think we're all here for a reason.

And I'm just trying to do my best every single day to get up and be

passionate about the things that I really love to help people figure out.

And that's where I am right now.

And I feel really grateful

and we could have this conversation in five years and you

might be somewhere else and that's fine.

Um, so it sounds to me I'll translate.

What I took out of that is that really building a relationship with yourself

was the needle mover and like realizing who you are and what's important to

you and, and, um, how you show up and interact in the world and with people.

And that's not the normal needle mover.

We get hearing talking about unhealth space and, um, I think people always

underestimate that aspect of like that internal world and what's

going on there and how it affects.

Physical D now I would guess that someone with a history of digestive issues or

skin issues, that if you get really stressed or if somebody really upsets

you, if you're really upset or you get pulled away from that, like connection

to yourself in some way, like get pulled into like patterns or unconscious,

like, you know, when you respond to something and then you're like, oh shit.

I said that thing.

And I wouldn't mean to, you know, when we react and then we realize it later,

like when you get pulled into that space, I wouldn't be shocked if some symptoms

of yours pop up from some, from time

to time and anger.

Yeah.

And people don't usually equate these to look at only like, what did I eat?

And it isn't always necessarily what you ate.

Um, as someone married to a person with multiple autoimmune conditions, all

three of her flares, there were things in common, one being mold and one being.

Extended periods of extreme stress.

And that now that's part of the reason we're moving to where we're moving

and pulling her out of the emergency room is to negate one aspect of that.

And so, um, that work of figuring yourself out is I think as important,

if not more important than what you're eating or, um, things of that nature.

So it's, it's refreshing to see that come up in Congress

and to be okay with doing what's different.

You don't have to look, I don't have children.

I made a choice.

I didn't want that wasn't for me.

And I know, my dad had this patient, she was, um, some sort of pastor and she

had asked me, my sister has two children and she got, sometimes his patients

would get us confused and that's fine.

And she'd be like, oh, how are your children?

And I was like, oh no, no, no, I, my they're my nieces.

And she's like, oh, and the way I said it, she must've taken a little bit of

an embarrassed kind of embarrassed.

And she said, I don't know if I'm overstepping here, but it's okay.

If your flock that you tend to is not biological children.

She's like, I know that you work with a lot of people and your flock that you

came into this world to tend to, might not look like what everyone else does.

And that's okay.

And I was like, wow.

That was like one of the most enlightening moments of something that some person

I'll never forget her, um, that she said to me, and I was like, you're right.

Because it just, that wasn't my flock.

And I'm okay with that.

I'm okay with the things that I get to do.

And it's okay that my life doesn't look like everyone.

Else's, I'm really grateful for it now that it doesn't.

So,

yeah, that's amazing.

That's so backwards compared to how most people in this society

respond to that situation, both being slightly embarrassed.

Cause then there's usually a defensive reaction that would be a lashing out.

And then people love to tell other people what they should be doing with their

life and that should match what they do.

I won't get into why I think that is, but That's great.

That's a really cool story.

So if anyone

is struggling with that, there you go.

Um, yeah, she was, I think she was Pentecostal minister

pastor for her church.

So I lived, I was just surprised by that answer that we all have our own flocks

to tend to, and it's okay if you're, as does not look like everyone, else's

brilliant.

Well, it was a great discussion.

And I appreciate you sharing stuff that isn't on the top of the things

you usually talk about on podcasts.

Um, I know that speaking from experience, some of the stuff that I now can talk

about pretty easily where it doesn't seem like it's a big deal to me, it used to be.

And so I totally want to honor that and, um, Thank you for sharing

some, some inside info on Jen's life and how you got to where you are.

And I'm sure a lot of people can relate to a lot of it.

Cause it doesn't have to be the same symptoms.

It doesn't have to be the same conditions or the same

challenges or the same, anything.

I think most people with any sort of chronic health issues can relate to

feeling alone, to feeling like an outcast or feeling like they can't do things.

And that they're in this bubble.

And like everyone else is living in this world that they get to do all

these things and in your world sucks.

And it's this little small world and nobody gets it.

And so, um, I hope that they feel seen and understood from, from this conversation.

And I'm glad you went through all those things that suck so that

you can bring that experience to the people that you work with now.

So.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I wouldn't have said it.

Me too, in my, my stuff that I went through to, like, I was suicidally

depressed a few years ago and out of that has come a whole bunch of cool stuff.

And if you told me then, oh, you're just going through a really difficult time

right now and it's going to turn out great and you're going to be better off for it.

And you're going to gain all these amazing insights and think I would have

been like, dude, go die over there.

Like, I don't even want to hear this.

And, um, I get it too.

Sometimes when you're in it, you don't want to hear, like, if it was

like right after nine 11 and your symptoms are really bad and you just

got traumatized and all these things are going on in someone's like, this

is going to be really good for you.

Uh, they would've got the bully fingers, so, um, we're not

trying to patronize anybody.

That's going through a really tough time right now, like, and

say, oh, it's going to get better.

You're going to love this, whatever.

It's just personally from both of our experience, uh, the gifts that came

through the challenges are the things that you learn to identify when you

make that relationship with yourself.

And you're like, oh, I can do this.

And, um, so cheers to us for going through a bunch of crap and, um,

for what came out the other side.

And I just appreciate the candid discussion and it's

always fun to connect with you.

And where's the best.

I got a bunch of links they'll see below.

So you don't have to name off everything you do, but where's the

first and best place for people to go to check out your podcast, your work.

Yeah, I would say, um, well it's skinned to corrupt.com, but for

those who find that hard to spell, you can just go to healthy skin show.com

and that will take you to the website where the ho the podcast pages, and

you can find everything from there.

Okay.

Skincare up.com uh, actually had commented before we went

live on how clever the name is.

And I ended up knowing the person who helped her come up with it.

So it's a small world, but, um, you get an, a plus for that.

That's the most creative, original name of a website or brand of

anybody I've ever interviewed.

So go there, check her out.

All the links are below.

We'll have a bunch of links.

So go look at those.

You can find everything.

Jen does over there.

Check out her show.

You got a lot of catching up to do.

There's like 200 episodes.

So, um, I want a full report back.

So go check those out.

And it's not just about skin.

I'm sure.

Jen talks about a lot of things over there.

So, um, thank you, Jen.

It's always super fun and I appreciate it.