Melanie DewBerry had an exemplary career as a coach trainer and mentor with CTI, one of the most prominent coach training companies in the world. She co-founded the first coaching magazine, Choice, and was selected as an author by Hay House Publishing with her book “The Power of Naming: A Journey Toward Your Soul’s Indigenous Nature.”

All she has done and all that she IS have guided Melanie to her vocation as an Indigenous Ceremonialist.

What does it look like to be an imperfect student of love? How do we follow the Native American way of life? What is your indigenous soul? How do we travel the path of the peaceful warrior?

www.melaniedewberry.com

I wish I understood the difference between job career and vocation. Work career vocation. I didn't know anything about that. You know, the truth was I got fired a lot. That was helpful. I mostly got fired because I spoke up. Yeah. And you know, people want compliance. I got throughout it. I got thrown out of graduate school. They're like, we're not giving your MBA, we're giving you an MA, because I got into it with a visiting corporate guy. And I was like, nobody wants to know what. So that kept informing. And over time, I thought, you know, maybe you should just work for yourself. Yeah, cuz you're getting fired all the time, even when you're good at your job because people don't want to hear what you have to say.

Hey, this is Achim Nowak, executive coach and host of the MY FOURTH ACT podcast. If life is a five act play, how will you spend your FOURTH ACT? I have conversations with exceptional humans who have created bold and unexpected fourth acts, listen, and to be inspired. And please rate us and subscribe on whatever platform you're listening on. Let's get started. I am just delighted to welcome Melanie DewBerry to the MY FOURTH ACT podcast and I'm going to introduce her to you in her own words. So this is Melanie speaking through me. I follow the Native American ceremonial way of life. I honor all life, the animal nation, the earth, water and sky nation are my elders. My teachers, like you, I've had many wonderful careers, I had a wonderful following as coach for over 21 years, I co created the first coaching magazine choice, I was honored to be selected as an author for Hay House Publishing, careers have finished, all of what I've done, and who I am has evolved me to this vocation as an indigenous ceremonial list. I love saying that Melanie, welcome.

You make me sound like I had my stuff together when I wrote that. Thank you.

Well, I think you did because you wrote it. I didn't make it up. I couldn't write it that well. If I put myself in the shoes of the listeners, I'm sure they're going what's an indigenous ceremonial list? We're gonna hold off a little bit before we go there. Because what really intrigues me, when you were a young girl or teenager growing up, and you thought about, well, this is what I want to do with my life or where I want to be? What were your thoughts? What did you think you want to

question? Yeah, you know, I didn't know exactly my sister's a year apart. They knew they wanted to be attorneys. They were done. I was rather formed by and I'm not going to go into the long story of it. But when we moved from DC to San Francisco, we encountered a lot of racism, death threats, blah, blah, blah. And my initial response to that was, you know, I'm nine years old. I'm just gonna learn all the languages I can learn. Because the problem is just communication. Yeah. So I studied Japanese, English, Sanskrit, Mandarin, sign language, Spanish, French. I've sucked at most of them. And probably English is about my worst language. But what it did is it gave me a gorgeous insight, not just the language, but the speaking with people into humanity. And honestly, I don't about I mean, some people know like, when they're just born. I didn't know it took me a long time and went to did a lot of schooling. Yeah. And I love school. I love education, I should say, but that didn't inform me. I just happened to get lucky as it were sitting in it. I worked in nonprofit for a long period of time and someone came in and said, I want to coach your young women in your programs. And I was thinking, Oh, God, another do gooder. Here we go. I had such an open mind. And I said, Okay, what is this thing you want to do this coaching thing? Just show me what you got. And she coached me and that was it. So ultimately, I learned that really wanted to what I wanted to do was what I wanted to become, which was to be spiritually grounded and connected. Well, long story.

No, no, not only good, but to beautiful statement where we ended and as I was listening to you, I was wondering, because many of us, we do work because we need to make some money we need to pay the bills, but there can often be this tension between the work we do And maybe what our soul really desires for us, but maybe what our soul desires for us, we're not even clear on, like, how did you navigate working in certain places? And managing? Like, is this really who I am? Is this really what I want to feel right?

First thing to say, I wish I understood the difference between job career and vocation, work career and vocation. I didn't know anything about that. You know, the truth was, I got fired a lot. That was helpful. I mostly got fired because I spoke up. Yeah. And you know, people want compliance. I got throughout Europe, I got thrown out of graduate school, they're like, we're not giving your MBA, we're giving you an MA, because I got into it with a visiting corporate guy. And I was like, nobody wants to know what. So that kept informing. And over time, I thought, you know, maybe you should just work for yourself. Yeah. Because you're getting fired all the time, even when you're good at your job, because people don't want to hear what you have to say. And so then I started consulting, and then I went back to nonprofit, and I thought, you know, really, the angels, like, we all have to help this poor child, we were gonna send somebody in our office, I really, I can't tell you that I figured it out. Or I did anything. I really think it was like the other realm that to say, Oh, she's not doing good. And I think I had some sort of outside help, because quite frankly, I was a little lost. I had visions. But I didn't have a path. Yeah. You know,

you've already mentioned your involvement in coaching and your discovery of coaching. And I read your introduction for about 21 years, you had a formal role in the coaching world for a good part of the time you were with involved with a very highly respected, well regarded Coach Training Institute CTI Yeah, you were an in front of them, trainer, you trained other coaches, you're certified coaches. And you've moved on, we're going to get to the move on in a moment. But when you think of that time in your life, because a lot, all of our listeners may be in one. If I think this is one act, there are, we can always tell two versions of the same experience. There are moments where you go, Gosh, this is why I love doing this. And there may have been moments where you went Get me the hell out of here. Can you take give us maybe a story for each one of those extremes?

Absolutely. I think the loved it part was the people who came and the people I worked with, like I loved that they were just willing to, you know, it's kind of like be playdough, and to allow us to bend and move and they got to reshape themselves. And I love that. Well, I love my private clients. Oh my god, what beautiful human beings and the torture, I must have put them through. I loved the group experience. I really, I didn't know that I was a natural speaker until until I started teaching. We didn't teach from like a curriculum like this. It wasn't like this, like a rule. It was more of here are the topics and here are the things that need to get in the room and how you do that's up to you. And I learned a lot about myself and about CO leading and that was just fabulous. So there was a lot of that, and then that's what kept me going. What was really hard for me was first of all, I'm not a business traveler. Well, let me rephrase that. I'm a business traveler, if you put me up in a really nice place. Give me really healthy food. But business traveling was hard for me it searches some more some people who are road warriors. I'm not I'm not a road warrior. I need a lot of rest in between and I did that thing. What do people call that when you're moving? Moving? Moving, you're hustling? You know, move the thought of hustling nowadays, but it wasn't natural to me. And the other part of it was for a long time. I was maybe one of two facilitators of color. Maybe there were four in total but I was the only African and definitely the only African American indigenous for a long time and then also people in the room you know, the leading technologies hit the the realm of people of color last always and so as much as I loved teaching and I love the participants, they're the people of color just didn't wasn't reaching them. We weren't marketing to them. And that was hard. And I just was tired. I mean, I felt like I did I did a lot on the road probably 11 years on the road. And that was enough.

Yeah, I certainly know that on the road life. Yes, nice hotels help. So I here is what I wondered. And I think this is true for this can be true for coaches. This can be true for therapists. There can be this pressure to. And I'm not saying it's externally imposed to be like a model person, or the perception that what she has her shit together, you know? Because otherwise, why would I want her to be my coach? Did you ever feel the pressure to be like a role model for people?

Not so much as a coach, but as a business person, like, I suck with linear ism. I'm not very good with linear time linear thinking. I'm just not a linear person. And so time, timing and things like that. I tried to kind of rise to the occasion. I didn't always do a good job at it. I did have to hire assistants to keep me on track. That was super thoughtful. You know? Because I just Oh, is it time where we're supposed to coach an hour ago? Oh, you know, but in terms of how I showed up, I just, I just had, I can't I'm not clean. You know, I'm just me. If you want somebody who's just who they are, and doesn't have it together, I would tell people don't ever put me on a pedestal. I'm not I'm not that person. I've got lots of flaws and lots of scars to prove them. And Clarissa Pinkola Esther says it well, when she says first at your feet then at your throat? And I'm like, No, I'm not going to do that. I ain't got it together. And if I had that, I would probably knock them down a few to no.

Beautiful can't. I mentioned your book, I want to mention the title because it's beautiful, the power of naming a journey toward your souls, indigenous nature. And when I read that, I was wondering, what is your understanding of your indigenous nature? And how did your knowing of its deepen evolve? Like how did that happen?

Okay, I'll do my best to answer it. You'll tell me if I do.

Yeah. Anyone you wish. Okay.

I'll start with how I came to that title. Or that body of work. I was on big mountain reservation in the four corners. Arizona, New Mexico, Utah, Colorado. I think that's the corner I might have. I might be wrong wrong. But remembering. But anyway, I wasn't doing I was participating what's called the Sundance and during the Sundance, we break the Sundancers. Break.

I want to interrupt you for a moment me to read because a listener might go, Well, how the hell did you get to the Sundance? I'm not in any Sundance, like something even got you there? Like, how did you know that you wanted to be at the corner at the Sundance?

Oh, wow. Okay, so I had a klinken elder is my first elder. And he said, we're going to the Sundance. And I said, Okay, I didn't know what that was, yeah, I knew I was going to be camping. Outdoors. I knew I was going to be arrested. I knew it was a ceremony. And then I came back the second year, and I became a dancer at the Sundance, so I had no idea I just, you know, in the native tradition, indigenous traditions, you don't ask a lot of questions you don't ask, well, what is that? And what do I need to know? And how do I prepare that is? That's a little disrespectful. Your job is to pay attention. Watch the elders behavior. If they feel like you need to know something, they will tell you. It's really a path of do it wrong. And they'll have a sit down with you.

When you were a young girl in DC, before you went to San Francisco, where did native traditions exist in your home was as part of your upbringing?

Well, the awareness was, and I was very interested in it. But I didn't participate. I remember calling Oakland they have a Native American Center there when I was a kid, maybe 12 or 13. I said, I know that I'm Cherokee and Choctaw, I can't prove it. But I'd really like to learn about my cultures. They said okay, come come to the Oakland center. And I was like, okay, and I have the phone and I never went I was just too afraid. So from that age, I didn't do anything about it until I was 31. I got introduced to this clink it elder 30 I don't know 31.

When we go on a soul spirit journey. They're usually things that propel us to go deeper. So I'm envisioning you at the Sundance, she said you became a dancer, but what propelled you to go deeper rather than just putting it aside?

First of all, in the elements, all our ceremonies are outdoors and there is a state of Holy Communion that I could I just experienced out there And then there's a state of communion among the dancers and the drummer and the chief and the Sundance helpers. There's an a shared experience. And there's also our own unique experience. And I felt I felt different. I can't expect explain it. You know, one, Sundance, we're standing there, I don't remember which one, but even the second one, and the women are circled up for morning prayer. And we're circling up and praying. And the first year there are wild horses on this race. First year ever. The horses circled around us, and waited for us to finish our prayers. And when we were done, that galloped off. I'm like, I don't know where I am. But this is holy. And I'm, I'm a part of this. It just kind of gives me chills to even say. And so when we're breaking for Sundance, they do these other ceremonies, like weddings, and, you know, namings and giveaways and this young boy was coming for a naming ceremony. I'd never seen the ceremony before they were speaking in their native Denae, Navajo language. I don't speak to me. Our ceremonies are Lakota. But we were on Navajo land. I'm watching the elders interact with this young boy. And I could feel I could hear what was happening. And I realized in this moment, when this young man leaves this Rez to go shopping, or go get a job, or, you know, whatever, he knows who he is, this young boy, he knows we as a nice elders lined up, lined up, see him. And in that moment I got, there's no pulling yourself up by your bootstraps. You have a circle of people and a beautiful thing about ceremony. It's different from celebration. And that when the ceremony ends, the elders follow you to support you emotionally, whatever you need. They're, they're keeping the eye on you, they're listening for you. They're talking about you. And then when they feel like they need to sit down and and guide you more. They're there. We just don't have that in United States. I don't know about other countries, but we don't have

a word from your sponsor. That's me. I invite you to go to the website associated with this podcast www.my Fourth active.com, you will find other equally inspiring conversation with great humans. And you will also learn more about the my fourth act mastermind groups where cool people figure out how to chart their own fourth acts. Please check it out. And now back to the conversation. I'm listening to you describe that in it's very vivid to me and at the same time, my mind is going to CTI the beginning of the coaching profession, there are certain models which I consider very western models for how we have conversations, if I'm going to put a racial language on it very Caucasian models for how we have conversations. So I'm looking at these two worlds. And if I'm making them wrong, I'm co clearly traveling both mentioned choice magazine, which is a magazine you co created about fostering conversations about what coaching is. How did these two worlds come together coexist commingle or not? For you?

Well, you be asking the real deal questions.

Well, thank you. That's my job.

Whoo. Okay. So part of being a CTI leader is you have to take their leadership program, and the first day of Leadership Program, the only person of color and I said, Okay, let me they got to me, they asked me some question. And they wanted me to be vulnerable. I said, Oh, so you want me to be vulnerable with 21 other white people? Oh, ain't gonna happen, you know. And when I started teaching their courses, and I'm like, the language you use is very white. Yeah. And I think just at the moment, I don't know about now, because it's been a while, they just weren't ready to shift. However, if there was beauty in what they taught me to do, like I told you, I study lots of languages, which really was the opening door for understanding humanity. And so I just merged. I just thought, you know what, there's a lot of freedom here, I'm just going to merge. I'm going to be who I am. I'm going to take the teachings and the awareness and the groundedness of the indigenous practice. And I'm going to take the verb base language, using English but but using it as a the noun based English language which is meant to be static. Two met to judge not necessarily judgment, but to judge so we can discern, but I'm going to use it as a verb based language, which is going to attune people closer to nature and They're so so I just merged them, I felt like I had permission to do that.

And in my experience, the best coaches bring all of that together to have it be I'm going to use the stereotypical and to have it be an organic whole, that's authentic and make sense. And they we trust all the skills and experiences, right, which is what I hear describe and, and they find a room in the in the coaching space. However, what interests me. And when I read your introduction, which you wrote, you know, you said, Well, I had careers, but I got clear on what my vocation is, you left that formal coaching world, at least the formal Association, and I love this question for you. But all of our listeners, you know, these transitions where we dare move on to something else, are compelling, and not always easy. So how did you figure all of this out for yourself?

I love that you keep thinking I figured it out. But...

Well, you did it! Maybe Maybe you were channeling your sassy self and said Dammit, I'm gonna do it. I don't know.

Yeah, you know, so actually, really what the catalyst was my mom died. I actually dreamed and it's the only time I've ever done this. I dream. My mom was critically ill. She had been going to the doctor and I dreamt she was ill I could see where the illness it was. I sent to the doctors. They said, Nope, nothing happening there. She's She's fine. I flew to Seattle to see her. I waved my hand over a body. I go, Mom, it's here in here, your uterus and your stomach. I said, go back to the doctor stage for cancer. I didn't know that. In the dream. There were seven stacks of newspaper in front of a plane. And she was wearing the lay. I didn't know that the seven stacks would mean she had seven years. And she died today. So during that death process, I was just like, Okay, two things, no more cocktail conversations, and no more doing anything I don't want to do in the world. So I, I continued working the entire process to her death, because I didn't know what else to do. And then when I was when she died, I just told my husband I said, I got to stop. And he was freaked out. But I said I got to stop. And I stopped for a long time. And then I freaked out about money. And I went on the road again with another company. I met some incredible people. But the hours were really long, I still work for them a little bit. And I loved it was the first time ever taught with people of color, ever in my life. And taught also people of color that was and that was lovely. I knew I was done doing that. And so I just came home. And then I called my elders, I said I need a ceremony. I need a ceremony, I need you to name me and I need some time in that sweat lodge. So my elders said, Okay, we'll sit with that. Then they called me. I had the ceremony. They named me. I kept going back to flying back there into Mexico, I kept flying back. And finally I just said, You know what I think what I need to do is I need to bring our tradition without copying it. I need to bring the our tradition to the people. I said, Can you trust me to initiate me in this without in any way assimilating or copying our traditions? And they sat down with me and talk to me about it. And they said, Okay, we're going to initiate you. This brings us to the people. So that's how it really happened. I can't say I really figured it out. It was all just like, the only thing I know. Well, that I want to carry forward is to a state of communion with nature and with each other. And to purposefully support each other in community in a tribal way. In our own maturation, because it's left up to our own. We're sitting next to working with married people who are 50 years old, we're not at the maturity level of being 50. And that's not their fault. That's because we don't do it together. We're all on our own.

There was so much to unpack in what you just said. Let me and thank you for the clarity of what I heard is, it wasn't about figuring it out. It was about putting one step one foot in front of the other, listening to yourself. And one thing led you to the next but there was a journey. I'm sure you were you. You talked about getting permission from the elders. I want to take it back to the traditional career playbooks were something like indigenous ceremony list. That's not on the list right? There. No, that's what the university guidance counselor will not suggest you do that. Did you come up with that? How did you come up with that name? That is density, how am I saying this is what I want to tell the world that I do? How was that formed?

You know, I'm in the business of naming other people. And it's all me like, okay, there is no other language. It was the language that articulated itself to me. I mean, it's indigenous. And it's ceremony. It's not a not a, I don't know what they call the people who I forgot the word people who do weddings and funerals. I mean, I could do that. But that's not what I'm talking about. It's indigenous. It's route based. It's its nature related. It's, you know, it's tribal related. Let me support you in your own becoming. And I don't really remember, but I know it scared the hell out of me when I came up with it. And took me a long time to be able to actually say it.

Yeah. Do you do this work with people who don't have Native American ancestry? Oh, yeah. That's what I thought, what is the indigenous nature of someone who maybe has never contemplated connection to Native American habits, rituals and practices,

we all have an indigenous nature to this earth, if we just kind of, I mean, we all get that full feeling. You know, we learn that that flow feeling when you're out in nature, that's not by accident. I mean, that's information. And if you don't have that full feeling, as you walk through the world, you're missing something, you've taken something out of the equation, that really is the only indigenous nature, I'm not necessarily looking for people's ancestral lines, they don't need to know any of that. I want to bring them back into the elemental world. I wanted to know what it means to face west and what to call on because really no help comes unless you ask the ancestors, unless you ask the a pharaoh realm. I want them to know how to call in the medicine from from the north how to call in New beginnings and fresh starts from the east, how to call an ending to the west, and how to call and draw in their welders for their elders from the south. I want them to know that they have mountains and oceans and and treat people who are just waiting, just waiting for them to say invite me in brother and sister. That's it's as simple as that. Now, nobody has to hire me. Thanks. I can just ruin my career.

I don't have the power to ruin anything. Melanie. I'm curious about in this journey of naming yourself. What have you learned about yourself at the deepest level? And what are you learning about the people that you serve in your work?

You to ask them really good, big questions. Cuz it makes me want to cry. I'm learning about myself that humility is Foster's everything else beautiful. compassion, love. I've got a lot of fire in me. In fact, the name my elder gave me has the word fire. But you know, and so it's good to burn things down. But it's also good, good just to invite people to have a place they can warm themselves and gather. And what I learn about other people, is that we're hungry for each other. Yeah, we're hungry, we're hungry to remember to remember. And I hope that they'll allow me or someone to bring them to the table where they can just eat the feast of remembering and belonging. And then becoming.

What if anything, are some things that are emerging for you right now at this stage in your life? And I'm not saying anything has to emerge, like other things you've always wanted to do, but have never done. Where are you with emergence and continue evolution?

Oh, thank you. That's awesome. Are there all your questions been awesome, actually, um, you know, what's been really exciting for me, is now I'm writing prose and poetry. When I wrote that book, you named the soul Namie book. It was really challenging because it's linear. And it's okay. Well, look, I'm not, you know, good with it. But it was challenging was like pulling teeth out of me. I was like, I don't know how to do this. And my publisher is like, get into and I'm like, but now I've just been pouring out prose and poetry. I don't know about the quality and I don't care. It just feels good. And it feels right. So that's the big emerging. So my next written project is to talk about black mystics, and to take justice workers We've seen been seen as Justice workers and some as heroes and some who are musicians. And to really have America see them for what they really are. Yes, they were absolutely brilliant writers, they were expertly positions. They were wonderful justice workers, but what they were was unnamed, on identified mistakes. And I'm going to show you how that's true. And I'm super excited. I don't know what's gonna look like, don't ask me that. But I'm super excited that it's on the precipice. And that's good enough for me right now.

Oh, that's, I'm getting excited. As you're talking. I have one more really personal question bubbling up. Your husband is Caucasian. I'm a man, I have a African American partner. How similar or different? Are you two from each other? And how are you? So navigating your different internal worlds and life experiences in your relationship?

You just asked one teeny easy question. Oh, wow. Okay, that's a good way. It's interesting. You know, I met him on match.com. Love it. And, you know, this was when that was brand new. And I was like, okay, creator, I will date somebody of this race in this race. Nobody showed up. Okay, okay, I'll at this race. And I was like, really clear that I wanted to date a person of color I dated and marry. I mean, I dated men, white men, but I was like, I don't want to get into the whole racism thing. Yeah. And then craters like, you'll do what I tell you to. And so I said, Okay, I'll open up the, you know, Caucasian section. And then there he was be ugliest picture I've ever seen. But what you wrote, I even have a picture like a play that I didn't know how to do a picture. You know, but what he wrote was so beautiful. And I knew he was a good man. And so we met. And we were engaged by our third date, which at this time was on the phone. And he was a keeper. Because when I came back, and he met me at the airport, I was getting ready to kick the guy's ass United Airlines for being rude to me. I was climbing over the counter and the police were chasing me. So I told you, I had a little fire.

A little is an understatement. Melanie

was like, Okay, so next time, let's do good cop, bad cop. So anyway, but I mean, that was a statement in itself. But you know, we're really radically different. And it's beautiful. We're like best friends, we spent a lot of time together, I really enjoy him and the racial thing, you know, where we were in our third act of marriage, where we're on the, you know, 21 years of marriage. And he's now having to learn what it is to stand up for me, which is hard for him. Because he's a geek. He's a nerd. He's an autistic, geeky computer guy. And so kind of standing up isn't what he does. And he's having to learn that because people come up and say and do wild, obnoxious, racist, rude things. I'm just sitting there minding my own business, and people will come right up in my face. And I'm sure your husband has experienced that. I mean, just out of nowhere, it's just out of nowhere, and so I can fend for myself. Absolutely. And he's my husband. And he needs to learn that too. So it's a learning curve for both of us. Mostly, I keep him drugged, so he behaves.

Thank you for that totally useless piece of advice. Thank you, Melanie. The juice? No, we're joking. But I, I appreciate so many things about your story, but one is what I'm going to call the courage to go deep into your soul's essence, and listen and trust in. And there may be listeners whose souls journey is different, but there is also an inner calling. But following it may seem really radical, because it means giving up stuff that we know that's familiar, perhaps safe, what kind of wisdom based on your experience? Would you like to share with them?

Here's what I want people to understand. You have no idea where this is going to take you. You can't figure it out. If you hear it, you feel it. You sense it, you want it. Let it come to you don't go chase it. You don't have to hunt it down. You can't hustle this information. Later. Let it Morphew because it will let it change you and evolve you because it absolutely will surrender. You can cry about it. It's okay. But surrender because what you will be made a new is beyond words. But the experience again to use the word I've said a few times, is wholly loving. And it's the kindest thing you can do to yourself is to give yourself over to your vocation.

Beautiful advice. Thank you.

Thank you!

If listeners want to learn more about you and find either your writing or find out about the ceremonial work you do, where would you like to direct them? Well, certainly,

you know, go over to the website, www.melaniedewberry.com Patreon is a good place Patreon, Melanie Dew Berry. And then I put a lot of my writing on Patreon, and some of it on Facebook. And you know, I'm in the usual places. I'm in the usually Instagram, Facebook, and it's usually writing just reach out and say hi, I do respond.

Thank you so much for the gift of this conversation, but maybe more importantly, the gift of you it was was an honor. Thank you, Melanie.

Thank you, honey pie. I appreciate it. Like what you heard,

please go to my fourth act.com And subscribe to receive my updates on upcoming episodes. Please also subscribe to us on the platform of your choice. Rate us give us a review and let us all create some magical fourth acts together. Ciao