Dive deep into the world of audit with an inspiring leader in our newest episode of Inside the Auditorium featuring Gabby Beaver, Chief Auditor for Quality Assurance at Citi.  

This episode explores:  

• Continuous learning and evolution: Gabby emphasises the importance of embracing a mindset of continuous learning and adaptation, drawing from her own experience of starting her career in technology. She reminds us that no one knows everything from day one; it's through investing in learning, both through formal education and on-the-job experiences, that we build our skill sets and advance in our careers. 
• Setting a strong vision: Discussing effective leadership, Gabby stresses the significance of setting a strong vision for your organisation and aligning the entire team behind it. In today's rapidly changing world, adaptability, innovation, and a commitment to customers, clients, and employees are essential for success.  
• The value of quality assurance: Gabby sheds light on the forward-looking nature of audit roles. It's not just about assessing the present; it's about anticipating future risks and ensuring organisational resilience. Quality assurance isn't just a role—it's a mindset. Gabby's insights shed light on the valuable skill set involved in quality assurance roles, offering a breadth and depth of exposure that facilitates learning and growth. 

Don't miss out on this enriching conversation with Gabby as she shares her wealth of knowledge and experience in the audit profession. 

Enjoy! 

Note: The views expressed by Gabby are her own and do not necessarily reflect those of her employer. 

Welcome to our podcast Inside the Auditorium. Perhaps you can give us a little bit of an introduction of who you are.

Thank you very much, Hayley. And first of all, thank you for inviting me on the podcast. I've actually been listening intently to a number of the podcasts you've done already. Very, very insightful. So I work currently at Citi and I'm the chief auditor for quality assurance. I have more than 40 years work experience between...

financial services and non -financial services and in equal measure split between first and second line roles and then third line roles as well. This is my third tenure within an audit role and you know, it's, you know, and we'll talk a little bit about it, but you know, that has incredible benefits having, you know, flipped across the different lines of defence.

So perhaps what you can do first of all then if we can go back, when you first started your career was at JP Morgan, right? Within Audit. And what made you choose internal audit?

Yeah. Yeah.

Okay, so what was interesting was that I had been working in outside of financial services. And I remember at the time, the recruiters, and I'd been in non -financial services for about 13 years. And the recruiter said to me, you know, you won't get into financial services. Well, interestingly, I had three offers from financial services organizations at the time. And one of those was JP Morgan and the JP Morgan role was the audit role.

And I didn't really know what it meant in detail at the time, but it sounded quite interesting in learning about the businesses, the products and services, and thinking, you know, how you could help the business enhance its control. So that was kind of how I kind of made the decision. You know, I heard a lot about JP Morgan. I think it was, you know, a great brand and thought, okay.

you know, let's give this a go. And, and, you know, being within audit Hazel is kind of incredible because it is an opportunity to make a difference. I think in all the roles that I've done, I feel, you know, very, very, you know, pleased with the fact that in all of those roles, you know, you do not just make a difference within your own function, but you do actually.

make a difference and have an impact across the broader firm for the better. So I think because I come in outside of financial services, I came in and my non -financial services experience was within technology change management and I quickly, when I came into the sector, I quickly made relationships.

Okay.

with the stakeholders because I was speaking the same language as them. And in fact, that actually helped accelerate my career within, you know, audit and, you know, within the firm. And I remember at the time, the CIO speaking to me and saying, well, you know, how about me putting you on, you know, my succession plan? I was like, wow. So it was fantastic, you know, bringing that first, second line experience into audit.

And so when you started at JP Morgan, was you doing technology audit or was you doing what sort of particular product area was you auditing?

So I started in technology and change. Then I was looking after, we were exiting a custody business, was looking after custody cash. And then over the years, I covered other products. So equities, credit derivatives, structured products. I was at one point working with Sally Clark, who you had on your podcast at some point.

and Sally and I were co -heads for the investment banking coverage in EMEA. And then my final role at JP Morgan was looking at the asset management business, so I global responsibility for looking after asset management.

And so starting off in technology then, did you have actually a bias to technology, whether that was internal audit or another position or?

I didn't have a... It was just how my career started and I covered every aspect of technology. So, you know, we installed one of the very first, at that time, many, many years ago, one of the very first Ethernet networks across the country. So it was, you know, we were at the forefront of quite a lot of innovation from a technology perspective, but it was just where I started my career, Hazel.

I'm just quite curious, was your degree then in technology or any of your professional qualifications?

No, my degree was actually in business studies. So that gave me a broader perspective from a business, from a financial perspective.

Okay.

Mm.

Because there's sort of quite a big emphasis at the moment in getting young women into technology. And I've just, you know, that some of the people I've met and interviewed over the last few weeks, how you've been easily to evolve in the technology space without necessarily coming from a technical background. I was just wondering how that's sort of possible. Do you?

Do you need to have a technical mindset or you're just very good at reading books? How easy is that to sort of bounce across and change from the business to technology?

Do you know what? I went into a technology environment straight from leaving school. It was my first job. So I built my career. The first 13 years of my career was in technology. And the thing about technology is that you have to keep evolving. You have to keep learning. You couldn't stand still. And because there were new products, new services every single day. So you had to keep on.

Mm.

top and you have to keep learning and I would just say as with most roles and for people starting out in their career, no one knows everything on day one. You have to invest in it, you have to learn, you learn from both courses and training but also the on the job experience and then over time you build your skill sets. So I wouldn't ask people, I wouldn't...

say to people to be afraid of it. There's nothing to be afraid of. Everything can be learned. You know, everything, you know, all those experiences can be built.

Sure. And then what made you sort of leave JP Morgan then and then that's, you went to Barclays doing as another chief internal audit position and then you moved internally. Was there any particular guidance or what made you sort of move out of audit and then come back into it?

So I was headhunted and for a number of years the head of audit at Barclays had been asking to have a conversation about a potential role. I then I met with him and I met with a number of senior individuals within the firm. I liked what I heard and I joined the organization. And

I think I've been doing and then when I was at Barclays, I had become also the deputy chief internal auditor at the time. And so extend my remit extended well beyond technology and change and third parties and other areas. And I had been doing audit for 17 years at that point. And I had had the conversation with my boss at the beginning of the year.

to say, look, I've been doing this role for 17 years. And for me, it's quite important to stay connected with the first and the second lines to keep my skill set relevant. And so, and I wanted to move into a business or a technology related role. 17 years, I thought, yeah, let's add.

to that skill set and I can always come back into an audit role. I also had the opportunity to serve as the chief audit executive there and had a wonderful opportunity to work with the board and the CEO, built fantastic relationships and you know, those relationships I maintain today and those relationships, you know, continue to open doors for you. I then...

I moved into the Chief of Staff role for Operations and Technology, Hazel, which was a fantastic role. We had an organisation of 70 ,000 plus people and we did some phenomenal things there. We had the most wonderful individual who was the head of Operations and Tech, a real forward -thinking, innovative individual.

who brought a lot of change within the organization. And, you know, we fundamentally redesigned an organization. We took, I think, in excess of two billion out of the cost base within two years. We drove a huge cultural shift. We designed, you know, new products and services, but very much from the lens of the customer.

So I learned an incredible amount within that role. And I also learned that when you're in audit, you think everything in the world exists. The business can only be thinking of the audits that are going on or the ratings that they're about to receive. But in reality, when you work in the business, you realize that that is but a pimple on their day.

You

There is so much going on and there are so many other challenges that they have to deal with.

Yeah, I love because that's how we think about in recruitment, you know, we think it should be at the forefront of everybody's mind, but really it's just sort of a significant little piece of your day, week or what have you.

It is very, very significant and important, but yeah, amongst all the other priorities as well.

Thank you.

And then obviously you moved into compliance for City and I know sort of Barclays and City, there's been some amazing people that have moved from Barclays to City in various different functions. Why do you think that was and how did you get your role there?

And again, it's the relationships you build, the impact that you have. I was headhunted into that role by a former boss and yeah, and compliance was something I hadn't done before. So that's one thing I would say throughout my skill, my kind of history is I've always tried to add to my skillset. You know, what's the thing that I don't have and,

and I hadn't worked in a compliance role and it was a fantastic experience because you learn to understand and appreciate the regulations which actually are incredibly important from an audit perspective. So it taught me a really, really valuable skill set.

Sure. And then obviously when we met, you were doing regulatory validations for the whole of globally for Citi, which I always found was very sort of quite interesting, especially some of the people that you hired. And now you're doing QA and maybe you can explain to us a little bit about QA and why it's important because...

I do feel that although professional practices have got quite popular now, I don't really think people understand the quality, the benefit of having QA and what that can teach you to go into other roles.

Yeah, and it's a really interesting point because I have to say when I was originally approached for the role, I did think is this the right role for me as my next step? And it's been an absolutely phenomenal experience. I have an incredible manager and you have a bird's eye view of the audit function.

And, you know, your job is to help protect the function, protect the firm. And as a consequence, you have to be forward looking. You know, you're not just assessing what the control environment looks like within the audit function today, but you're also looking at what are the kind of emerging risks that are coming? What does the function need to be ahead of?

and you're thinking about the talent, the skills, the capability. It tells you, it teaches you everything about running an audit function. I think it's an incredibly valuable skill set. And I think there are probably, you know, different forms of QA roles. I know within our own firm, we have probably the biggest QA function on the street.

which serves an incredibly valuable role for our audit function. And, you know, so there are different forms of QA functions. I think, you know, the one that I'm in gives me a lot of latitude. I work closely with the chief audit executive almost on a daily basis. I work closely with his leadership team.

I work closely with the chair of the audit committee. So it gives you a breadth and depth of exposure. And actually, you learn so much from it. So much from it, Hazel. It's a wonderful, wonderful skill set to have.

And do you believe that once people have been in a QA role as well, what sort of roles if they wanted to move out of audit, where do you think sort of the skill sets could help them?

Okay, so I feel very passionately, you know, I think within an audit function, you have, you need to have a mixture of individuals, you need to have a mixture of individuals that, you know, you have the career auditors that are disciplined, dedicated to the profession, and are, you know, progressing their careers through that play. Then you have individuals like myself who have

first, second and third line experience and I think that brings its own richness in terms of auditing. So you'll see, I think today, you'll see much more transition from individuals moving from the business into audit and moving from audit into the business. And I think both of those equations are incredibly important.

As you bring SME talent from first and second lines into audit, you're actually strengthening your assurance capability. You know, that SME expertise is actually enriching your audit capability. And likewise, as you take that audit skill set and you put it back into the business, you are strengthening the risk and control skill sets within the business.

So I think both are incredibly important and I think the journeys these days are much more fluid.

And so therefore I don't suppose you're going to tell me if you had a favourite role that you preferred.

Do you know what? I have loved almost all of my roles. And, you know, whether you have, you know, good experiences or bad experiences, every single one of those experiences teaches you something. And, you know, you, you know, you put that in your, your toolkit and, you know, that experience actually is invaluable. So.

I don't know if I have a favourite role. I will say there have been roles where I've been really pleased, really, really pleased with what I achieved. You know, I talked about I'd had the opportunity for a short period of time to be the chief audit executive at Barclays and I got to work closely with the CEO and the chairman there. And that was a phenomenal period in my career.

and you know the ability to synthesize and bring up on occasion quite challenging issues and to be respected for that and to be valued for bringing those up and for bringing those up early such that the firm could course correct is you know I think was a phenomenal period in my career.

I talked about within the technology organization where we fundamentally changed the organization, 70 ,000 individual organization, and we drove the costs out, but we fundamentally shifted the culture. And where people said, oh, this can't happen, it can't be done, it was done, and it delivered results.

we took the people with us and it had an enduring impact on the film's bottom line. So I think those are a couple of my highlights from various roles. I wouldn't say I have a favourite role, although just in case my boss is listening, my current role is my absolute favourite role and I do possibly have a wonderful, wonderful manager that I work with today.

Thank you.

challenges me in the best way and yeah, and so that's always a great thing to have.

Show.

So really you would say that you've got several biggest achievements in your career. Is there any particular one time where you thought, oh, I've made it or, you know, something that sort of, yeah.

you've really enjoyed.

I think, you know, I mentioned the two there, you know, they're doing the chief audit executive role and the impact that had on people that you worked with. And to this day, Hazel, you know, the industry is a very small industry and people move, you know, between organizations and many of the individuals when I was there were...

you know, some of them were more junior coming up through the ranks. And, you know, some of those individuals we recruit into the organization today and they'll like, you know, I remember you, I remember you did this or you said that, and that had a profound impact on me and my career. You know, so I think the impact that you have on people, that impact.

that is enduring, I mean that's priceless. And then watching individuals grow and develop and succeed and that you've coached and you've mentored and you see them put your advice into action, you know, you feel so proud as you watch others shine in their career.

So from a leadership perspective then, what do you think sort of are the key characteristics of a great leader or, you know, can help women in their success?

I think, just thinking about great leaders, I think first of all you have to set a strong tone and vision of what you want your organisation to be.

And you have to think about strategically what you want to achieve and you have to align the whole organization and mobilize the organization behind achieving that vision. I think you have to be adaptive. You have to be innovative. You cannot stand still. The world is changing so fast and we all know companies that didn't.

adapt and didn't change, they're no longer in business. So I think it's important for all of us to not stand still, to keep learning, to care about your customers, your clients and your employees, I think is incredibly important to stand for what you think is right. And I think most of all to be authentic Hazel. Yeah, I think that's it.

Sure.

out of name form.

And is there any great mentors that have really sort of made a impact in your career? And if so, why is that?

Okay, I kind of think of like two individuals and I don't name names, but they gave me two great pieces of advice. The first one was, don't just rely on the talent at the top of your organization. Unshackle the talent all the way through the organization.

and I think that was and you know this individual put that into practice every single day and he unshackled this incredible talent and individuals on the ground that know how it works, knows what's going on, understand the issues and so I think that's my first and most profound piece of advice and I

use that advice every single day. I make the time and effort, and I prioritise it because it's important to understand what all of the organisation is thinking. And in fact, the greatest ideas often come from more junior individuals within your organisation. So I think that was the first incredible piece of advice. And then there was another one of my managers.

When I started my career, I was very, very people focused and I'm still very, very people focused and in fact people will probably call that out as one of my traits today. But I then quickly realized that just focusing on the people didn't get the results and I had to kind of balance both. And if you don't...

balance both. Some people just focus on the results and some people will just focus on the people. But if you don't balance both, you won't achieve enduring or superior results. So that was my second piece of counsel I was given and I tried to stay true to that. I think it's incredibly important to balance both.

And in your view, sort of what makes a good audit function now then, you know, since being in QA, has that sort of changed your mindset a little bit?

Okay, what makes a good audit function? I think first of all, you've got to have the breadth and depth of technical talent and you have to stay one step ahead of your business. I think it's incredibly important that you have a knowledgeable, skilled and talented workforce. I think the second thing is that you need a

trusted and respected audit function. You know, you need and you want your stakeholders to listen to you, but they're not going to listen to you if your facts are ungrounded, you know, that you don't have the right perspective. But the minute you start bringing that value to the table, you start having those trusted relationships, the door opens and even delivering the bad news.

isn't tough because the stakeholders know you're coming from the right perspective, that you're skilled and experienced to be challenging them and bringing that value to the table. I think the third thing is that you have to be an innovative audit function, Hazel. I talked about companies that stand still, no longer exist. And so you have to be innovative in how you are auditing.

you know, continuing to enhance your audit techniques, continuing to drive efficiencies in the way you audit, continuing to, you know, look at things in a different way. If you continue to look at things in exactly the same way, you're going to get the same results. So I think, you know, keeping yourselves fresh through the use of innovation, I think is incredibly important. And I think the fourth thing for me is being a courageous function.

I think auditors have to be both curious and to be brave. And you know, you have to build the relationships and the respect. That's incredibly important. But then I think, you know, your gift is that you have a bird's eye view of the entire organization. You can see things that other people don't have the time or the lens to see. So you're an

incredibly in an incredibly privileged position and I think you have to use that privilege wisely and there are times when you have to give the tough love but I think most of all if you're forward -looking and insightful you can help the firm catch things before they become big problems.

Sure. And where do you sort of see internal audit going then within the next sort of three to five years?

I think as we will industries, innovation is going to be transforming our industry. There's a lot of data that we look at within internal audit. And I think a lot of auditing historically has been data analysis to three dimensional. I think we're going to have to use the technology to

drive even greater insight from the data that we've got. Those, you know, five dimension, ten dimension analysis that, you know, no human brain can easily compute. I think it's going to be really, really important. So to continue to, you know, use innovation to enhance our ability to analyse what we're seeing, to determine trends and predict threats.

and etc. Gen I is going to be incredibly important for driving efficiency and enhancing our audit capability as well. I talked a little bit earlier about foresight and I think this is going to be really important, future proofing audit assurance. We're not living in the same world as we were living in and even five, ten years ago where you would think of certain scenarios and you could

predict for those scenarios and that's all you needed to worry about. The world is changing on a daily basis and I think all the things that are going to hit the industry are things we probably haven't thought about. So I think that foresight and getting ready for any eventuality, helping the firm have a real rock solid foundation that no matter what comes and how quickly it comes,

we as a firm can be nimble enough to adjust to that and deal with it quickly in a positive way. So I think that foresight, that forward thinking is going to be incredibly important. I think the immersion between the first, the second and the third line is going to be incredibly important for all of us. Those combined assurance maps, the richness of data that that's going to give us.

working together as first, second, third line in looking holistically at the control environment is going to provide us with a much deeper lens to help guide and protect firms going forward. And then I think the expectations from regulators and the boards will continue to evolve. And I think and our customers and the needs of our customers and clients are going to continue to evolve.

Sure.

So making sure the introduction of those new requirements, you know, those new needs, those new product offerings are, you know, delivered in a safe and controlled manner. I think it's going to be very important.

And tell me, are there any sort of initiatives or moments throughout your career that's helped you succeed and why is that?

And I had the privilege early on in my career at J .P. Morgan to be reverse mentored by the CEO of the investment bank there. And that was fantastic. Having such access to, you know, such a senior individual so early in my career was really important because he was very focused on helping women.

accelerate their careers. I think when I went out on maternity leave and again you know I'm thinking about women coming back into the industry after they've been on maternity leave. I had a fantastic set of experiences where my, in fact the CEO called me when I was on maternity leave, my manager had a check -in with me, I was out

for six months each time. But my manager checked in with me each month just to ask how I was doing. I kept in connect connectivity with the firm by reading emails when I wanted to, not doing any work, but just to ease Hazel, the fear of coming back. Just to keep me informed of all the change that was happening within the firm. And then I've been quite blessed.

to be mentored by very senior individuals and coach during my career. And I always say, you know, the value of networking is priceless. Yeah. You'll be amazed how many doors it opens for you. So keeping in contact, connecting with individuals, you know, learning from the breadth and depth of talent.

within the organisation, outside of the organisation has been invaluable for me.

Sure. And, you know, we've got very much so people now are having mentors in and now career coaches is a very big thing. You know, like Sally and a couple of other people that I'm in touch with going into Ned roles and things like that.

Do you think as a mentor then, it's better if you're being mentored by somebody that may not be with an internal audit that's from the business or that can give maybe a different perspective on things?

I think different times require different mentors. Yeah, and it depends what stage you're in at your career. Sometimes you do need that mentor from internal audit because there are some things you are grappling with to do with internal audit. Sometimes you are grappling with more of the softer skills and you want to accelerate your career or you want to have an opportunity that's, you know, in a different domain.

So I kind of think there's no one size fits all hazel. It really depends. What do you need from your mentor? And on that basis, that's how you make your choices of where your mentor comes from.

Mm.

And is there anything you would have done differently then that may be, that might be helpful to other women in their audit careers?

I think being realistic, when I look back, I don't think it's easy to have it all. I think if you want to have it all, you have to make some choices. And, you know, I made a choice very early in my career. I have a very busy career. I was traveling all over the world. I was trying to bring up two small children and I was exhausted. So I made a conscious decision of

bringing in additional support to help me and my family cope with that. And that eased a lot of burden off of myself and of my husband. And, you know, so I think be realistic and don't, you know, it's very difficult to be a superwoman every day. It's OK to get some help and it's OK to make some choices. And, you know, I know that the CEO of Citi

you know, Jane Fraser often talks about there'll be times in your career when you can, you know, do much more and then there'll be other times in your career where you have to slow down a little bit. You know, all in all, it evens out. I think, you know, being realistic, I think is incredibly important. And don't have regrets. Don't apologize for being a mother, a father, a sister or brother. You know, we are human beings first.

and we need to kind of bring our whole selves to work. So figure out what works for you in your life and I think focus on outcomes, not hours spent, hours worked. It's about outcomes, it's about impact. And then one final thing, Hazel, and I learned over time, because what I used to do, and I remember one of my bosses phoning me up and saying, Kavita, your work -life balance is not good.

because you're setting a bad role model example for your people. And what I used to do, Hazel, was I'd spend all my day in meetings and then at five o 'clock I'd start working. And then I'd carry on working until 10 o 'clock at night. And I was like, and he said to me, he phoned me up one day and he goes, why are you doing that? He said, you don't need to do that. And then I realized in that moment, oh my gosh, I had been doing it to myself.

because I had chosen to organise my day that way. And so I now control my day and I make conscious decisions of where I spend my time and I prioritise the things that matter. And I also have this concept of once and done. Every single meeting I go into, every report I read, every discussion I have, I give it my 100 % because that is the time I want to focus on it. I don't want to then...

Yeah

have to rethink everything because I only did half a job in that meeting or I only did half a job in reading that email. So I try to adopt the once and done principle and in fact it serves me pretty well.

Because you're obviously getting pulled about all over the place. Everything's urgent with every individual that wants your attention or your timing, whatever they want to do. As a senior leader, how do you manage that? You just make a list. How do you get through your data for you to ascertain what's important and what's not?

Yeah, so it's a really good question. And, you know, my job as with almost everybody's job, no two days are the same. So you come in with great intentions and then all of a sudden, you know, you're pulled in a million different directions. I think what I try to do is I try to plan ahead. So I always work with my assistant to look two, three weeks in advance. So I know the big things that are coming up that I need to kind of get ready for.

I have to prioritise what matters and then I have to think about which things I can delegate, which things 100 % need my time. And just making those thoughtful decisions, Hazel, is the only way to actually keep your head above Walter. And you know, you also have to do one golden rule, which is remind yourself what you are employed to do.

And if you are spending all of your time down here on stuff that other people should be doing, it means you're not spending the time up here doing the things you should be doing. So I very consciously think about, is this something I should be doing or is this something I should be coaching my team to do so that they can learn to do it and take that forward so I can spend my time on the things that I should be doing? So I think it's also figuring out.

where you should be spending your time.

Sure. And I suppose that's what makes a good manager, right? To be able to let go. You know, we spoke about this on the podcast many times that there are people in senior positions that might probably manage or, you know, just don't have the ability to be able to teach, to be able to pass that on. And which obviously has a knock on effect. Okay, great. I, I,

Where do you sort of see in terms of the risks now? There's been a lot of changes within quite a lot of the banks recently. Why is internal audits still a very good career to get into?

I personally think it's a fantastic skill set to have and every job, be it in financial services or outside of financial services, Hazel, today, you need to understand risk and control.

Yeah, you need that skill set. And once you have that skill set, it's like riding a bike. You never forget it. Yeah. And I will tell you, even even when we go on holiday, my husband will be like, oh, my gosh, he's turned into an auditor because I'll be thinking of the contingency plan if this goes wrong and that goes wrong. Yeah, you have your skill set. You have a set of skills on how to manage risk. And it is a

fantastic skill set to have. I think the risk and audit skill sets are incredibly in demand today and they are valuable across all three lines of defence. So it's much more of a transferable skill set than perhaps I think, you when I was originally within audit, I think it's changed so much now.

Well, I won't keep much more of your time. Maybe I can just ask you a quick fire questions. What's the best place you visited and why?

Oh the moldybs. We had a underwater villa and oh you know to be able to see the beautiful fish when you're when you're sleeping. You know first thing in the morning absolutely beautiful beautiful weather beautiful people just stunning.

I know my husband won't go back there again with me because he says it's boring and I can't believe it. I know you're in bed by 8 .30, asleep, because you just sort of, your batteries really do sort of slow down and recharge, but yeah, beautiful place. And tell me, what's your favorite way to spend a day off?

I am football mad. So I am a big Manchester City fan. You know, I've done the stadium tour, sat where Pep Guardiola sits. So football kind of ignites a huge passion in me. Absolutely love it. I love spending time with my children.

and enjoying nice food, so going out for some lovely meals. And my husband, if he was here, he would actually say I love shopping. I wish.

Hahaha!

And tell me what current book are you reading or podcasts are you listening to at the moment?

I listen to quite a few, I've been listening to quite a few of the Stephen Bartlett podcasts. I have a huge interest in the physiology of human beings, the brain, how the brain works. I'm very much into the mental, the physical, the spiritual side of human beings. So because I think, you know, that's...

Oh yeah.

for me highly informative about our continued evolution as human beings. I haven't really read any books recently, but yeah, definitely been enjoying some of those podcasts. And of course, Hazel, I've been enjoying your podcasts.

this question right to everybody and not once somebody say I'm listening to inside the auditorium.

I think listening to yours, I think like, you know, enjoying them and learning lots, no, fantastic.

And lastly, tell me if you were going to write your own biography, what would be the title?

Do you know what, it's an interesting thing that you said and I'm going to say I did it my way. I'm going tell you why. No, it's really important. And I think one of my greatest successes is that I've been able to be me and I've been able to succeed as me.

And again, earlier in my career, you people were like, oh, you need to be like this and you need to be like that. And I'm like, but I want to succeed as me. Yeah, I'm a very grounded individual. And I think throughout my career, I've stayed true to myself. So I think the title is I did it my way. And and you know what? How much kudos I get from colleagues who have seen me on that journey.

and come through being me. Yeah. So, yeah.

Now, I totally agree with that, you know, be your authentic self and also, you know, it's even in the world of recruitment, you know, I believe everybody thinks that we're just, you know, just trying to get everybody's business, but when you're actually working with somebody and you have the belief in them and can sell the...

the division and who that person is and what makes them a good manager, it just makes the job a lot more enjoyable. So I've got to thank you for all your help and support over the last few years as well.

And.

No, and do you know what, Hazel, what's really important? And I think the future, the past does not define the future. And I think that's really important for individuals, male, female, whoever, to recognise, you know, there are no boundaries. And, you know, sometimes those boundaries, you know, they're in your head. And, you know, today,

Diversity of thinking, diversity of approaches, different ways of doing, that is what's going to deliver companies superior results. Everybody thinking the same way, doing things in the same way, succeeding is, I don't think that's the answer. I think that collective diversity of approaches and thinking.

is going to be incredibly important. So I would encourage any colleagues coming through, you know, they may think, oh, I'm not this or I'm not that or I'm different or whatever. Park those thoughts at the door. Define your own journey and your own success and don't let your head limit what you can achieve.

fantastic. Well look, thank you very much for your time today. I really appreciate it.

No, very nice to see you Hazel and thank you again. Take care. Bye.