Have you ever felt like you were supposed to just move on after pregnancy loss?

So many mums are told to “be grateful”, to stay positive, or to focus on the next step. But grief doesn’t follow a tidy timeline. It lingers, it reshapes us, and it deserves space to be felt.

In this heartfelt conversation, Dr Renee White sits down with Dr Bianca Mastromanno, a Clinical Psychologist who has dedicated her career to supporting individuals and couples through the emotional terrain of pregnancy loss, pregnancy after loss, and early parenthood. Together, they talk about what real healing looks like, the kind that makes room for sadness, love, and everything in between.

Bianca brings both her professional expertise and lived experience to this episode, offering a deeply compassionate perspective for anyone navigating grief, fear, or the uncertainty that often comes with trying again after loss. This is a conversation for mums, partners, and support people who want to understand how to approach pregnancy loss with empathy, courage, and care.

You’ll hear about:

• The biggest myths about grief that keep mums stuck and silent
• How shame can show up after pregnancy loss and gentle ways to move through it
• What trauma-informed care really means for postpartum support
• The conversations every couple should have before pregnancy or birth
• Why self-compassion, not perfection, is the foundation of mental health for both parent and child

Dr Bianca’s insights are tender, real, and full of hope. This episode is a reminder that healing doesn’t mean forgetting or moving on. It’s about learning to carry your grief with love and surrounding yourself with people who see and support you through it.

If you’ve experienced loss yourself, or if someone you care about has, this episode offers the understanding, language, and practical tools to feel less alone in it.

Resources & Links

📲 Connect with Renee on Instagram: @fillyourcup_

🌐 Learn more about Dr Renee White and explore Fill Your Cup Doula services

🍪 Treat yourself with our Chocolate + Goji lactation cookies

💬 Connect with Dr Bianca Mastromanno:

Instagram | @drbiancamastromanno

Website | drbiancamastromanno.com.au

Download Bianca’s free Pregnancy Loss Guide

Resources mentioned in this episode:

• The Whole-Brain Child by Dan Siegel
• Parenting from the Inside Out by Dan Siegel
• The Baby Loss Guide by Zoe Clark-Coates
• Pink Elephants Support Network
• PANDA (Perinatal Anxiety & Depression Australia)
• Time to Talk TFMR Podcast

🎧 If this conversation helped you feel more informed, pass it on to another mum navigating her fertility journey. And make sure you’re subscribed so you’ll always catch the next episode.

The Science of Motherhood is proudly presented by Fill Your Cup, Australia’s first doula village.

Disclaimer:

The information on this podcast presented by Fill Your Cup is not a substitute for independent professional advice. Nothing contained in this episode is intended to be used as medical advice and it is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease, nor should it be used for therapeutic purposes or as a substitute for your own health professional’s advice.

[00:00:30] Dr Renee White: This episode is proudly supported by fill Your Cup, Australia's first doula village. If you are pregnant or have a new baby, we have doulas ready to look after you, to nurture and nourish you across Melbourne, [00:00:45] Geelong, Sydney, Newcastle, Brisbane, gold Coast, Hobart, and Perth. Let's dive into today's episode.

[00:01:21] Dr Renee White: Have you ever felt like you were supposed to just move on after a pregnancy loss? [00:01:30] Maybe you are pregnant again and terrified that something will go wrong, but everyone around you expects you to just be happy, or perhaps you are already parenting, but the loss you experienced years ago still shapes how [00:01:45] you show up for your children in ways no one talks about.

[00:02:17] Dr Renee White: Pregnancy after loss and early parenthood because she really recognized early on that supporting young families is the key to mental health [00:02:30] prevention. And in today's episode, Bianca walks us through the biggest myths about grief that actually preventing mamas from healing. And the one thing every woman should know [00:02:45] before trying to conceive that could protect her mental health throughout her entire journey.

[00:03:21] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: I'm well, thank you, Renee. Thank you so much for having me. I'm delighted. I'm long time listener.

[00:03:39] Dr Renee White: Like, I think we're, what, four years in or something? It still blows me away. They're like, been listening to your [00:03:45] podcast and I'm like, oh yeah, people listen. I don't just sit in an office and like speak into a microphone by myself all the time.

[00:04:04] Dr Renee White: Yeah, I'm a sucker for good podcasts and also, um, voice texts from friends. I love voice texts from friends. So

[00:04:16] Dr Renee White: Absolutely. So in today's episode, the listeners would've heard that you have kindly come on to talk about the topic of pregnancy loss and we briefly chatted online and I think [00:04:30] even my text message to you when I was kind of teeing this up, I had a bit of a vulnerability moment and was just like, I really want this to be a topic on the podcast, but I am so scared to do this because [00:04:45] I personally have never experienced pregnancy loss. It was definitely on our radar.

[00:04:54] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: one in four

[00:05:15] Dr Renee White: I've got a number of friends and family who have experienced it, whether it's very early on and in the instance, I have two friends who experienced loss at six months, so mm-hmm. I, [00:05:30] I have been a support person, but, oh my God. Like, I have to say, I am sweating a little bit to do this topic.

[00:05:37] Dr Renee White: Um, I've got questions though.

[00:05:57] Dr Renee White: What do you say? How can you be the best support [00:06:00] person? But then equally, if you're someone who has experienced, or perhaps this is very new, like maybe it has just happened to you. Mm-hmm. Here are some things at play, but before we dive into that, Bianca, I [00:06:15] would love for you to just set the scene. Okay.

[00:06:31] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Absolutely,

[00:06:38] Dr Renee White: Um. So, yes, please let us know. Like you know, your background, how and how did you get [00:06:45] into this? Like I'm always like chicken and the egg. Like was there a pivotal moment where you were like, yes, clinical psychology, that's my jam. And then I'm gonna like really narrow in on kind of like that motherhood, infant kind of space as [00:07:00] well.

[00:07:12] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Mm-hmm. I hope that can be settled a little [00:07:15] bit because it is so common and in a way it's what keeps so much silence around this topic.

[00:07:22] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: 'cause no one wants to get it wrong.

[00:07:23] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: No one wants to make a grieving person feel worse.

[00:07:29] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Yes. Like, oh my [00:07:30] gosh. Absolutely. And even I'll say before we started, even as a psychologist, I feel how you feel, because I'm so conscious that every grief experience is different.

[00:08:06] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: So. Mm. But yes, let's talk about forensic. That was so funny. So yes, I'm a perinatal [00:08:15] clinical psychologist and I guess from high school probably I was really tossing up between law and psychology. Mm-hmm. Going back and forth. And right at the last kind of minute I discovered this course in forensic [00:08:30] psychology and undergraduate degree. Mm.

[00:08:53] Dr Renee White: for the record, for those, not for those, just on audio, not on our YouTube, Bianca is very young, so the olden [00:09:00] days, God, you're gonna make me feel old.

[00:09:08] Dr Renee White: Oh, come on, you are a spring chicken. I've got a decade on you girlfriend. Like. [00:09:15]

[00:09:26] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:36] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:51] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Yeah. That was in the study. And I just had this sense, um, which might seem really obvious to us now, but at the time, you know, [00:10:00] 21-year-old me thought, hang on, there's this common theme here. Mm-hmm. Of you know, people growing up in really challenging environments. Mm-hmm. No sort of attachment security, no sort of emotional support.[00:10:15]

[00:10:26] Dr Renee White: Yes.

[00:10:40] Dr Renee White: different yeah.

[00:11:03] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:29] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Mm-hmm. Um, [00:11:30] emotional development and, you know, is there possibility that if we get in here really early, we can change the trajectory for these little ones.

[00:11:38] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Which we did. Like, we, we published the studies and it found that just these little drips and, and [00:11:45] drabs of education information supporting parents to understand their own stories.

[00:11:51] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: And how that turns up in their parenting and their own triggers.

[00:11:56] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: So that was really, again, almost I've started out with forensic adults. I've [00:12:00] slipped down to

[00:12:08] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: I did, I was at the premier in Malcolm. It was amazing.

[00:12:33] Dr Renee White: Oh, I've got no name too Escape. But escape's amazing. Escape. Escape Me, which I will, hold on, I'm gonna look it up because I'm not gonna butcher this. It's got all the greats, it's got Layle Stone and Billy Garvey, Hayley Bartholomew Haley [00:12:45] Bartholomew, uh, episode 1 76. But, but we didn't see a lot of that clinical psychology, but in the background. But that sounds like exactly like what. What you are talking about, right?

[00:13:09] Dr Renee White: Yes, yes. Absolutely. Oh my God.

[00:13:36] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Yeah. You know, do I need to be harsh and punish them? Do I, you know. All these questions. Yeah. I just thought, wouldn't it be amazing if parents knew this [00:13:45] sooner? And so then I sort of slid even further back. And having my own kids supported that as well. But I sort of did training in perinatal and infant mental health.

[00:14:15] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: I often have babies in session and I really see like the family as Yeah. As the client.

[00:14:37] Dr Renee White: And I, I tell you, like I, there is one book that I will just, I have just spruked so much on this podcast. [00:14:45] I feel like I almost need to get shares in this and I can't, I haven't got him on the podcast, Dan Siegel's book, the whole brainchild

[00:14:53] Dr Renee White: Completely changed my world. And when you said, you know, having that understanding and emotional [00:15:00] regulation of like when your child, your two year old's, like face down in a supermarket screaming their lungs out and you're just like, what the heck do I do? Like,

[00:15:09] Dr Renee White: Same thing. I, it wasn't in public, but I had something very similar at home and it was the first [00:15:15] time and I thought, oh my God.

[00:15:27] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: oh, he's brilliant. I actually got his other book right [00:15:30] next to me, parenting from the Inside Out. That's also a brilliant one around how when things like that happen often, unless we've done a lot of inner work, we just, what comes out

[00:15:45] Dr Renee White: 100%. And it's so funny 'cause. When you, when you read those books, you kind of go in with this mentality of like, I'm gonna fix my child, fix my child, fix my child, and then by the end of the book you're like, [00:16:00] oh, okay. I need lots of fixing that. There's nothing wrong with my child. Right? Yeah. Okay. Yep. Cool. I almost feel like every book should come with a mirror.

[00:16:11] Dr Renee White: Just be like, just so you know, this book's for [00:16:15] you actually.

[00:16:23] Dr Renee White: Oh, hundred percent.

[00:16:33] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: And so often parents do think when their child is, you know, anxious about something, angry about something, it is very much like, you know, it can feel like is there something wrong with them? Mm. [00:16:45] Whereas we know emotional development, mental health and wellbeing in little ones. It's so relational. Yeah. And it really does involve us going, what's the dynamic here?

[00:17:04] Dr Renee White: it should be,

[00:17:11] Dr Renee White: Um, 100%. I wanna talk about, [00:17:15] like, you mentioned that you work with parents, like even in that kind of pre kind of conception stage.

[00:17:47] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Yeah. I think, to be honest, I think even just knowing that whether you have got a completely smooth sailing, you know, gyne history, a completely [00:18:00] smooth sailing health history before entering into the perinatal period, you know, thinking about conceiving, I think even just simply knowing that this is a time where lots of support, particularly mental health support can be really helpful.

[00:18:14] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: [00:18:15] Because even if, you know, you have a very smooth sailing pregnancy and don't experience loss or fertility challenges. Mm-hmm.

[00:18:35] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: It, it's impossible to do this on your own. Yeah. Um, you know, despite what we're often made to feel like is just figure it out and get on with it. Mm-hmm. I [00:18:45] think even if it's just at the outset, people being able to say themselves, look, there's a really good chance that I'm gonna benefit from not doing this all on my own, from having some form of emotional support.

[00:19:20] Dr Renee White: Mm, absolutely. Mm. And I, I, I think I wanna touch on two things because, and I have seen this, [00:19:30] uh, you know, friends, family. People around me and things like that. There, there seems to be kind of two elements that I see, you know, particularly after infertility, um, struggles and perhaps, you know, some and pregnancy [00:19:45] loss as well.

[00:20:20] Dr Renee White: Yes. And then, so that's with like the actual pregnancy loss mm-hmm or infertility struggles. And then when they, when they get [00:20:30] pregnant and like you say, like, we can't do this alone. There's this, I just have to suck it up because I need to be so grateful because I have struggled for so [00:20:45] long and you know, I've had so many losses and I just need to like, this is, I just need to stand on my own two feet by myself and I cannot complain about this.

[00:21:11] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Yeah. They're two really distinct, but equally [00:21:15] as influential yeah you know, points that you, you highlight. I guess the first, the shame, and look, I think I'll, I can personally speak to this. I mean, so my first pregnancy ended in a miscarriage during [00:21:30] the first trimester, and then a few months later, I sadly experienced a second trimester loss in the form of a termination for medical reasons.

[00:21:41] Dr Renee White: Sorry about that.

[00:22:01] Dr Renee White: Yes. Yeah.

[00:22:19] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.

[00:22:42] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Yeah. And so often for a lot [00:22:45] of women, it's potentially the first time in their life where they might have ticked every box, you know, done quote unquote, all the right things, you know, and, and in some ways what happens is still [00:23:00] completely out of their control.

[00:23:01] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: And that is a devastating realization for a lot of women.

[00:23:32] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: You know, there's the grief side, but it also for a lot of people brings up things like shame, anxiety. They start to question, how much control do I really have? And it, I mean, [00:23:45] yeah, it's, I think what adds to the shame often is then the silence. And, and those, you know, often people make comments around, you know, well, at least you could get pregnant.

[00:24:08] Dr Renee White: Yes. Yes.

[00:24:18] Dr Renee White: Yeah. And then you don't wanna share then. Yeah. Like you're just like, okay, that did not make me feel good cause I thought this was a safe space and it's clearly not.

[00:24:37] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Mm. But when people, you know, and this goes for anything in the perinatal period or just in life, like if anyone is made to [00:24:45] feel that how they're feeling emotionally is wrong. Mm. You know, unless they've got really well developed self-compassion, which some people do. Yeah. They're gonna absorb that, they're gonna really start to think not only is my body let me down and outta my control, [00:25:00] but now even my feelings are wrong.

[00:25:13] Dr Renee White: Yeah, [00:25:15] yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And then with the, I guess the, the other end when every, you know, you've got this beautiful baby and you're feeling perhaps anxious and overwhelmed and just, you [00:25:30] know, completely suffocating. Cause you're trying to do this all by yourself. Mm-hmm. And you should feel grateful apparently, because you've got a healthy baby. And, um, you know, 10 fingers, 10 toes, that classic line. Oh my god, yes. Put it in the bin Yes. [00:25:45] How do you, like, how does one navigate that? Like, like what are some, like what are some tips, I guess if someone's listening now and they're feeling that they're, what should they do?

[00:26:32] Dr Renee White: oh God

[00:26:58] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Mm-hmm. You know, I [00:27:00] love my baby and this is. So bloody hard. Yes. Or you know, um, I love counting their fingers and toes, but Oh my gosh. Like, I, I can't even get up in the morning cause I'm so exhausted.

[00:27:15] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Yes, exactly. Exactly. I love waking up to my baby, but sometimes I hate waking up against my baby cause I was just up 10 minutes ago.

[00:27:24] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: So that maternal ambivalence, which even without a loss history, a lot of people [00:27:30] feel unsettled by, if they don't know about it. Mm-hmm They all in a loss history or an infertility history where people are, may again made to feel like this actually should be even better because you've gone through so much adversity and now you're at the top of the mountain kind of [00:27:45] deep. Yes.

[00:28:12] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: It is, you are, in some ways, you're [00:28:15] still managing two relationships with two different babies. Yes. That is challenging.

[00:28:35] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm. They fall pregnant and then there's almost, and I'm very, I'm very good at dissociating. Mm-hmm. This is a superhero strength and [00:28:45] it has pros and cons. Okay. Yeah. So we're gonna preface that. Okay. But I, I do see some women who almost are like, I'm just growing a baby, and almost like, I'm not gonna acknowledge it until it is here.

[00:28:59] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: I have [00:29:00] been her

[00:29:33] Dr Renee White: Like, or do you just go look, you know what? That's her coping mechanism and yeah. And you know, you, do you boo like how does that work?

[00:29:46] Dr Renee White: I like that by the way. Very good. I'm gonna use that.

[00:29:52] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Yeah. So I think at the outset we want a ton of compassion for this. Mm-hmm. And also a ton of [00:30:00] understanding. So if we think about the fact that our brains are quite literally designed to be threat detectors, if you've experienced the worst threat, you know, one of the, arguably up there the top threats in the world, you have already lost a baby, right?

[00:30:32] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: I guess the emotional response, which might be mild anxiety at one end. Mm-hmm. Through to what you mentioned about dissociation at the other, which is a trauma response. Yes. That is [00:30:45] involuntary. You know, it's not because, you know, a, a mother is going, you know what? I really don't believe in connection and I don't believe in attachment.

[00:31:01] Dr Renee White: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:31:26] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:31:50] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Mm-hmm. But not everyone can. And even as a psychologist, I couldn't. And so in some ways I was forced to grapple with the duality [00:32:00] of this isn't ideal. Like ideally I should be connecting with this baby. You know, we talk a lot about gestation in mind for pregnant people. It can be a really lovely experience to connect with your baby [00:32:15] during pregnancy.

[00:32:36] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Because what we don't want to happen is, um, again, ideally some people find, and thankfully my experience was, you know, baby comes out alive and well. [00:32:45] Mm-hmm. And then that bond, you catch up, right? That bonding starts. But for other people, that fear of something going wrong and that disconnection that can progress into postpartum and for you and for your baby, again, isn't [00:33:00] ideal.

[00:33:20] Dr Renee White: Oh, did I,

[00:33:40] Dr Renee White: I, I, I, I, I mean, you know, people can say, oh, [00:33:45] she's bias. She has a doula village of course, honestly, I don't care if you, you know. Welcome yourself into our doula village or mm-hmm. You know, another doula village. It, it doesn't bother me at all. I've always said that, but like, honestly, [00:34:00] and it's, I think it's really tricky for particularly first time parents, because I was there.

[00:34:08] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Of course

[00:34:24] Dr Renee White: And I, I got the deal and whatever. But honestly, get the secondhand pram invest in [00:34:30] whatever the mental health is that you need. And a lot of people do that via a doula, because, you know, I think we are, do you know what I think we're really good at? We are really good at seeing the red flags [00:34:45] for a number of different things.

[00:35:10] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Oh, absolutely.

[00:35:37] Dr Renee White: Yeah. And this is what I see time and time again. And so when I go, you know what? You could spend $3,000 on [00:35:45] having a doula for really intensive support. Yes. And that is, that's gonna pay dividends in the future.

[00:35:53] Dr Renee White: Talk to me about like, what does the research tell us Yeah. About when the mental health of a [00:36:00] mother is poor. Yeah. What's the consequence to her child? What happens?

[00:36:30] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Or I'm so, yeah. Right. That, that, so I like to use, not disclaimers, but like I would encourage that anything I share is perhaps, hopefully experienced in a shades of gray kind of way.

[00:36:52] Dr Renee White: Yes. But we are talking about perhaps association.

[00:37:14] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: And because [00:37:15] of the pressures to appear grateful, mM, has perhaps been masking, you know, whether it's depression or anxiety in her pregnancy after loss and parenting after loss journey. Mm-hmm. Right? So let's say she's now welcome to her new baby, everyone [00:37:30] around her, you must be stoked, you must be so grateful, et cetera, et cetera.

[00:38:09] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Pregnancy after infertility or loss and parenting after infertility or loss. [00:38:15] Again, mind as a threat detector is going well, what else could be wrong? Are they reaching their milestones?

[00:38:55] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:39:04] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: And again, by no fault of the mother's own. But then what we know can happen is when parents are struggling, any primary caregiver is really [00:39:15] struggling, that baby is then potentially not going to be receiving as many of those attachment ingredients. And I say that again very lightly. Yeah. And emphasizing I of

[00:39:28] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Yeah.

[00:39:32] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Yeah. Exactly. So even things like, we know from research that babies benefit a lot from what's called effective mirroring. And what that means is it's basically how they learn to make sense of their [00:39:45] earliest emotions. So let's say a baby makes this really sad, you know, devastated face, maybe they're really hungry when a parent mirrors that back, not too intensely, but can kind of do that.

[00:39:59] Dr Renee White: oh, you [00:40:00] sad?

[00:40:08] Dr Renee White: Okay.

[00:40:22] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Yes. Or to really do that fine tuned effective mirroring. So just little things like that [00:40:30] can be impacted when a mother isn't doing well. But I always like to emphasize and come back to this a lot like the concept of neuroplasticity. Mm-hmm. And certainly if you know you have had a [00:40:45] challenging start with your baby for whatever reason, from a mental health perspective, you know, their brains are so plastic. Mm-hmm. And often when mothers recover and are, well

[00:40:56] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: that translates, the baby will catch up. You know? Yeah. The baby [00:41:00] will have enough of those good enough experiences to go, oh yeah, they, I know they get it. I trust that they get it.

[00:41:10] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: So clever. It's almost like real permission giving. It's like made to realize [00:41:15] we were gonna botch a lot in those early years. It's, and so it gives us grace.

[00:41:35] Dr Renee White: Is it like 20 or 30%? Yeah. Or something like that. Like, like it was, I remember seeing it going, huh? What? Like, I [00:41:45] dedicated like 20 of the 24 hours, you know, in those newborn days with my daughter. I still remember back, oh my God, Bianca. Yeah. Like the whole good mother complex thing that I had mm-hmm. In those early [00:42:00] days, I was just like, no wonder I was a cooked parent.

[00:42:16] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: of course.

[00:42:29] Dr Renee White: Yeah. [00:42:30] And our, um, brains is like, don't worry, like we can fix this later. Like, you don't have to be perfect all the time.

[00:42:57] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Yes. Half the time to be [00:43:00] whatever it is. Figuring out yourself, figuring out, you know, tending to another child. There is a lot of capacity and if a third of the time-ish we can really be there and be responsive and support the feelings and do all of the [00:43:15] things our children will do really well.

[00:43:18] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: It really doesn't, it really doesn't take a whole lot. But certainly if a parent who is listening is feeling like, gosh, even 10% of the time, I feel like I [00:43:30] just can't quite get there. Then that would be really thinking about,

[00:43:35] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: what do I Yeah,

[00:43:39] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: just building percentage by percentage with whatever resources and supports you have available.[00:43:45]

[00:44:10] Dr Renee White: Yes. Whatever, if there's, I was actually, actually, I was talking to my trainer this morning at gym. [00:44:15] Mm-hmm. And I walked in and he said, how are you going? And I said, oh, honestly, I'm really sore and like, I didn't have a good night's sleep, so I'm not great. Mm. And he's like, so you're good? And I was like, did he just hear what I said?

[00:44:31] Dr Renee White: Yeah. And I was like, I was like, and he's like, you're good. You're fine. You're here. You, you, you are good. And I was like, are actually, I was like, are you, like, do you have a thing where you're like, [00:44:45] everything is just baseline is good or great or excellent.

[00:45:18] Dr Renee White: Mm. So I just tell myself I'm good. I'm good, I'm good. I'm okay. I'm good. Mm-hmm. I'm alive. I'm well. Yeah. You know that. And I was just like, okay, [00:45:30] that's what we're gonna go with. Okay. But yes, so keeping that type of narrative around, you know, surrounding yourself with people who are positive and things like that.

[00:46:08] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm. When you're around someone who's experienced pregnancy loss, are there any red [00:46:15] flags?

[00:46:16] Dr Renee White: That you go, Ooh, hold on a minute. Mm-hmm. Perhaps we need to have a discussion.

[00:46:28] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Yeah. I think if, [00:46:30] for your trainer, if that works really well for him, brilliant, brilliant. Like ama, like that's wonderful. In my experience, I find that kind of level of positivity or trying to [00:46:45] sort of put that onto someone who's grieving.

[00:46:50] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Yeah. I mean, I don't wanna speak to everyone. I haven't met every grieving person. And certainly I think there is a point in, you know, in mental health there's research [00:47:00] around, you know, whether it's gratitude practices and, and things like that that does have its place. But in my experience, what I find that grieving parents need, especially in those really early stages, but for some forever, they just need [00:47:15] validation. Yes.

[00:47:37] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Really That I was just gonna say, that's really,

[00:47:40] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Okay, cool. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. And this sort [00:47:45] of, the validation I think is a really good place to start.

[00:47:50] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: I'm also a big fan of asking grieving parents. What would feel best for them. Mm-hmm. And I say this [00:48:00] knowing that not all grieving parents will be able to put words to what they need.

[00:48:27] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Like, I'm wondering would it be [00:48:30] sitting you with, you know, sitting with you in, in the shit, you know? Yeah. Being really here with you. Would it feel useful for me to plan some nice things for us to do? Not because this is me telling you you need to move on,

[00:48:42] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: I'm just asking you [00:48:45] what would feel comforting and they might turn around and say, you know what, I actually, for now I just need, I just need you to be here.

[00:48:53] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Some might turn around and say, you know what? I actually feel like I need you to pull me out of this a little like can we plan a [00:49:00] trip? Can we go somewhere again, not to kind of forget about it or move on or feel pressure?

[00:49:24] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: I don't know if I challenge you.

[00:49:26] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: but I've never heard it end well. Mm-hmm. [00:49:30] Any stuff around moving on, because we know from grief research now, I think there's this, you know, myth around you get to this sort of acceptance stage and then. You know, it's all done. Yeah.

[00:49:51] Dr Renee White: I like that concept cause I'm a visual person. Yes. Okay. Yes, I like that.

[00:50:05] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Mm-hmm. And in the jar there's almost like a bowling ball. It takes up like the full space of the jar.

[00:50:11] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: And what happens is it's not like the bowling ball [00:50:15] then turns into a marble. We grow, we do things with our grief, we carry it around. Mm-hmm. We integrate it into our lives. Yeah. And that's going to look different for different people.

[00:50:37] Dr Renee White: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:50:52] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: How can I help you carry this bowling ball? Yeah. Rather than, how can I help you feel better? You know? Yes. What do I need to do to get rid of the [00:51:00] bowling ball? Yeah. Think,

[00:51:03] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Yes. Okay. Exactly. I think we're problem solvers and often our urge is how do I cheer this up and how do I fix it?

[00:51:33] Dr Renee White: I do you love that? That is an excellent explanation to me because I mean, I think about, you know loss of people in my life. [00:51:45] And it, it is, it's just like, you don't, you don't ever wanna forget them. No. It's just that, you know, I, I do joke to people. I'm like, I've got more baggage than you can, you know, stow away in an overhead of an A380.

[00:52:07] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Absolutely. And this goes in so you know, for so many things, like I work a lot with people with trauma histories, [00:52:15] and no therapeutic technique is going to delete the fact that these awful things happened.

[00:52:39] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Yeah. So that it doesn't literally feel like you're carrying around this bowling ball in a little blast jar. Yeah.

[00:52:52] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Yes, I do. I love this. Are you in Melbourne? Do we need to go for a bush walk?

[00:53:02] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: my husband has a lot of family in Tasie, so I'll have to let

[00:53:08] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: oh yes, yes, yes.

[00:53:11] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Yeah. Okay.

[00:53:15] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Your other question about the red flags is a really good one. Yes. On, and this probably relates, I was going to mention at the end, but I very recently developed a resource for pregnancy loss. Yes. Um, that has got [00:53:30] in there a whole section of basically when grief gets stuck, how do we know when this isn't? And I say just grief in like inverted commas yeah cause grief is heavy enough.

[00:54:01] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Or even if they're walking around in the world functioning, they're attending work there. Yeah. You know, doing the things. You can just sense that there is a sense of almost anhedonia. Like what is the point? Yeah. If that is really persisting, that's [00:54:15] one. If your loved one is saying things like, I just can't stop thinking about insert whatever it is here. Whether it's, I can't stop thinking about the moment that it happened. I can't stop thinking about, you know, being in the hospital. Mm-hmm. [00:54:30] That can be a bit of an indication of perhaps are they having flashbacks, are they having really intrusive reliving experiences that are more trauma-based?

[00:54:38] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: And things like particularly to watch out for in pregnancy after loss. That real, like excessive, [00:54:45] whether it's excessive, you know, checking the toilet paper for, for blood and yes. That real monitoring, whether it's looking at their apps multiple times a day and Yeah. You know, some people, you know, even do things like they buy a home doppler and they're using that [00:55:00] 10 times a day, which a lot of obstetricians are, would not recommend.

[00:55:07] Dr Renee White: I'm not sure.

[00:55:11] Dr Renee White: Your scope. That's cool.

[00:55:22] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: If you notice your loved one is just doing a lot of where, even if it's researching a lot of Googling, what does this mean? What does the, you know? Mm. Just going down rabbit [00:55:30] holes of random things that could be wrong, but that guide has got like a little bit of a checklist for people to look at. How do I know if this isn't just grief and whether it might be an indication that maybe we need [00:55:45] some more support.

[00:55:59] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Yes. And they've [00:56:00] got their hotline now as well. Yes. So for those who don't know, pink Elephants support people through early pregnancy loss and then often, um, red nose support people in that sort of later pregnancy loss space. Um,

[00:56:15] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: starting there. Yeah. Yes. So there are, and again, those are in the guide as well. We've got a little directory in there.

[00:56:31] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Yes. And it's free and you can access it from any device.

[00:56:47] Dr Renee White: Yeah. Absolutely. Thank you so much for sharing that with me. Okay, Bianca, we knew that this was gonna happen, didn't we?

[00:56:56] Dr Renee White: we're just, I I, but I feel like we've got some gold because [00:57:00] Yeah. I feel like we've, we have covered quite a bit. I definitely wanted to get into that kind of shame and anxiety thing and, and, you know, discussions to have and, and broaching that type of, um,

[00:57:13] Dr Renee White: No doubt. [00:57:15] Before we let you go though, we, we have to do our rapid fire, which yes. You know,

[00:57:21] Dr Renee White: for everyone playing at home. Bianca freaked out before I told her that we were gonna do a rapid fire, but it's okay because, you know, there's no money on the [00:57:30] line. You know, Eddie McGuire is not, uh, do you even know Eddie McGuire? Are you too young for that? Me too

[00:57:39] Dr Renee White: Top seat millionaire.

[00:57:44] Dr Renee White: Oh my God, I feel [00:57:45] so old now.

[00:57:56] Dr Renee White: No, I don't. I don't, but no, you're still spring chicken though, and [00:58:00] that's okay. We're not gonna hold that against you. Okay. Alright, here we go. First question, what is your top tip for mums?

[00:58:10] Dr Renee White: I know, isn't it?

[00:58:23] Dr Renee White: yes.

[00:58:37] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: The idea that we should do any of this. Loss pregnancy, parenting in isolation is just [00:58:45] wild. And yeah, put that in the bin. Yeah. So wherever you can community,

[00:58:53] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: No

[00:58:57] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: No. And I actually was reading a study yesterday, it [00:59:00] was something like 40% of mothers of babies are spending basically the entire day alone without any other adult interaction. And you just think about all the spillover effects that that would have. I

[00:59:31] Dr Renee White: Yeah. Like if you're not feeling great or whatever, and you know, say your partner like leaves for work, they've gotta return to work. Things like that, I say to them. One of the things that really blew my mind was that, you know, I have [00:59:45] never felt so lonely in my life as I did. Yes. When I was on maternity leave, even though I had another human being in the house with me.

[01:00:09] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: And if you don't love your mother's group, which I've heard this,

[01:00:13] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: That's okay. There are [01:00:15] other options. Like there are people who run mothers groups that aren't through the council. Just find Yes. Somewhere. Somewhere.

[01:00:22] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: someone, yes.

[01:00:44] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: [01:00:45] Oh my. Have to develop a whole nother stream of your business.

[01:00:55] Dr Renee White: Yeah. We will find you one. Yeah. Because you ain't doing this [01:01:00] alone, girlfriend.

[01:01:02] Dr Renee White: Second question. Okay. Do you have, apart from your amazing guide. Do you have like a go-to resource for mums or did you have something that someone maybe [01:01:15] gave you? Yeah. Or you found along the way that you were like, holy moly, guacamole. Yes. This changed like either your pregnancy or like your motherhood experience?

[01:01:41] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: She's based in the uk, the Baby Loss Guide. It just shares [01:01:45] so many stories of so many different types of losses and as, as sad and morbid as it might sound. Um, you know, I certainly had the experience and I know of others as well. There is something about [01:02:00] reading through books like that. Yeah. It almost confirms to us that, oh, I'm normal, like how

[01:02:07] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: How normal. My grief is normal. So the Baby loss guide is one that I would really recommend. Mm-hmm. And then the other [01:02:15] resource that I always like to mention, because if we think about baby loss can sometimes be hard to navigate. Termination for medical reasons is this very niche.

[01:02:25] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Part of baby loss that is shrouded often in even more secrecy [01:02:30] and more shame for a range of reasons.

[01:02:51] Dr Renee White: But no, that I, those are tho That's great that I've never heard of either one of those, so, okay. That's fantastic. Thank you for that, okay's. Okay, we'll put both of [01:03:00] those in the show notes, everyone, so don't panic if you don't have a pen and paper. Okay. And a last question, which is always very left field.

[01:03:10] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Okay, love, love her.

[01:03:16] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: absolutely. What do you keep on your bedside table? Oh. Oh, okay. I am gonna have to think about my bedside table for a minute at the moment. Again, sad and morbid.

[01:03:48] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Oh yeah. That nothing juicy. Do people have juicy things?

[01:04:06] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: So they're like getting up in the middle of the night to go and hydrate. They're not. They don't have, that's so,

[01:04:27] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Absolutely. Sleeping through the night. That [01:04:30] sounds so good. If you find that, let me know.

[01:04:41] Dr Renee White: Oh my goodness. It has been amazing having you on the podcast. I do. You know [01:04:45] what? I do feel better about this topic. Thank you.

[01:04:48] Dr Renee White: I feel like I've got so many good visual representations in my head now. Mm-hmm. About how to navigate this with people. I mean, you know, as doulas, we have our [01:05:00] beautiful families who sign on, you know?

[01:05:17] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: I can see that.

[01:05:46] Dr Renee White: So I feel after chatting with you today that I'm more armed. Do I feel a hundred percent confident? No, I don't think I ever will, but that's okay.

[01:05:57] Dr Renee White: I think that's okay.

[01:06:05] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: I feel like would arrogant, wouldn't it? Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Because you can't be, even if you've trained in grief, it's so different for [01:06:15] everyone. Yeah. There's no way you can be an expert in someone else's grief and know exactly the right thing to say. You will get it wrong. And I'm sure I get it wrong too. Yeah. And that's okay. Yeah.

[01:06:49] Dr Renee White: Yeah. I think as long as they know that you are there. Yes. With great intent to support them when they're ready and how they want [01:07:00] to be supported. I think that's a really key thing. Like mm-hmm. Don't go in guns blazing thinking, I know I got this. Then you know, as long as you're patient with them, then it will probably. It will probably end well.

[01:07:24] Dr Renee White: Good exposure. Thank you so much. Alright, so where can we find you? Obviously the guide [01:07:30] will be in our show notes as well as your details, but yes, they can click through.

[01:07:44] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Good [01:07:45] question. So you can find me on Instagram at Dr. Bianca Mastromanno. It's a mouthful, but there's only one of me, so it should come up even if you spell it wrong.

[01:07:55] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Um, and my website is drbiancamastromanno.com au. [01:08:00] Currently, I actually this year transitioned to doing telehealth only, oh. So I do all my sessions over video. I find it works so well for parents, particularly if they're, you know, pregnant and doing a session [01:08:15] on their lunch break.

[01:08:36] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Names on and recommendations on. So if anyone is sort of stuck in needing support, don't be shy, reach out. And, um,

[01:08:46] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: probably Yes.

[01:08:52] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Thanks so much for having me

[01:09:00] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: I love it too. Thanks so much for having me. This is real honor, Renee, like I really just love everything you put out into the world.

[01:09:08] Dr. Bianca Mastromanno: Um, and yeah, this is a very special morning for me as well.

[01:09:21] Dr Renee White: If you loved this episode, please hit the subscribe button and leave a review. If you know someone out there who would also [01:09:30] love to listen to this episode, please hit the share button so they can benefit from it as well. You've just listened to another episode of The Science of Motherhood proudly presented by Fill Your Cup, Australia's first doula [01:09:45] village.