Have you ever heard an idea that you thought you understood, but the more you heard, the more profound it became? Paula White’s idea about “Side B” leadership is one such idea! When you first hear it, it sounds like a standard truism that it “takes all kinds” or is essential to “leverage your strengths,” which are two powerful ideas, but they are hardly new. But as she unpacks the idea further—helping us to see that every typical leadership skill has an untapped genius at its side that will unlock your leadership capacity further than you thought possible and that these leadership skills are like the members of a band who work better together than apart-- I realized her ideas go way beyond a simple analogy.

Join us as we discuss:

-     How the metaphor of “getting the band together” translates into successful corporate teams

-    Why corporate teams need a diversity of “musicians” to work effectively

-    How to leverage our “hidden hits” and find our most effective leadership style

Resources Mentioned:

Join the Great Work Community here: amandacrowell.com/great-work-community

Click here to get your own copy of Amanda's book, Great Work.

www.paulaswhite.com

https://www.linkedin.com/in/paula-s-white/

https://www.instagram.com/sidebconsulting/

About The Guest:

As the author of Side B: Remix Your Leadership Style, Paula has an unwavering passion for music that she applies in order to bring new perspectives and open new possibilities for emerging leaders. She has an innovative approach to drive results, increase productivity and profitability by unleashing a leader's natural skills and behaviors to bring their whole self into their role and leave a legacy impactful to the people they serve.

A globally recognized sales leader, Paula has leveraged her talents to scale Inside Sales Teams into multi-million stand-alone sales channels. She has helped organizations achieve 8% - 10% yearly compounded growth, demonstrating success in a wide variety of industries including travel and tourism, investments, veterinary, and healthcare distribution. Passion for education and leadership is a driving force behind Paula’s success. She has a true desire to see the success of others and transforms their ambitions into her own! She focuses on fostering the talent of the next generation.

Outside of work, Paula is an avid concertgoer and has found joy as both a lyricist and a co-producer on several songs.

About The Host:

Dr. Amanda Crowell is a cognitive psychologist, speaker, author, and coach focused on changing our perspective on the world of work. It IS possible to do Great Work—the work that calls to you from the inside-- without sacrificing your health, happiness, and relationships.

Amanda is the Author of the book, Great Work: Do What Matters Most Without Sacrificing Everything Else, and the creator of the Great Work Journals. Amanda's TEDx talk has received almost two million views and has been featured on TED's Ideas blog and Ted Shorts. Her ideas have also been featured on NPR, Al Jazeera, The Wall Street Journal, Quartz, and Thrive Global.

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So I thought to myself, Why can't leaders rock this same kind of attention with their employees or teams, as musicians do with their fans?

Welcome to unleashing your great work, a podcast about doing the work that matters the most to you. I'm your host, Dr. Amanda Crowell, a cognitive psychologist, coach, author of the book, great work and the creator of the great work journals. Every week on this podcast, we're here asking the big questions. What is your great work? How do you find it? And why does it matter? Whether we do it? What does it actually take to do more of your great work without sacrificing everything else? And how does the world change when more people are doing more of the work that matters the most to them? Stay tuned for answers to these questions, and so much more.

Have you ever heard an idea that you thought you understood but the more you heard about it, the more profound it became? Paul White's idea about side b leadership is one of those ideas. When you first hear it, it sounds like a standard truism. Like it takes all kinds or it's essential to leverage your strengths, which are two powerful ideas, but they're not new. But when Paula unpacked her idea further, helping us to see that every typical leadership skill has an untapped genius at its side that will unlock your leadership capacity further than you thought possible. And that those leadership skills are like the members of a band who work better together than apart. I realized how much deeper ideas go way beyond a simple analogy. But as she unpacks her ideas further, helping us to see that every typical leadership skill has an untapped genius at its side that will unlock your leadership capacity further than you thought possible. And that these leadership skills are like the members of a band who work better together than apart. As she unpacked these I realized how much deeper her ideas go beyond a simple analogy. Before she was done, I was chomping at the bit to take her assessment and to know my own side beat leadership skills. I'm an optimistic vocalist and a sincere Pianist By the way, I think you'll find her ideas just as fascinating as I did. So who is Paula white, you ask? Well, Paula is the author of sci fi remix your leadership style. Paula has an unwavering passion for music that she applies to emerging leaders to bring new perspectives and open new possibilities. her innovative approach increases productivity and profitability by unleashing leaders natural skills and bringing their whole self into their leadership role. A globally recognized sales leader, Paula has leveraged her talents to scale inside sales teams into multimillion dollar standalone sales channels. Outside of work, Polly is an avid concert goer, and has found joy as both a lyricist and a co producer on several songs. Let's welcome Paula to the podcast. Paula, welcome to the podcast.

Amanda, I'm so excited to be here. I want to thank you and all your listeners, because it's just amazing to speak with you.

Yes, I'm very excited to hear your perspective. And we've been trying to have this podcast episode for almost a year. Now. The minute I heard that you have this like perspective on music and leadership. I was like, tell me all of the details about that. So let's start there. Tell us a little bit about your great work, Paula.

Oh, you know, and I love with that you start this way. My great work is really working with emerging leaders and transforming them into leaders that will lead us into the future, you know, the next generation that's going to lead us into the future with sustainable businesses by really developing people.

Yeah, what is it about developing emerging leaders that feels so aligned with your values or vision?

Right? So, you know, emerging leaders are hungry, they're, they want they really want to learn, and especially that generation that's coming up into this emerging leaders, they have this entrepreneurial spirit that, for me, is really exciting to be able to take the music that I talked about, to use it as a metaphor and as a tool to help them understand that they can have a both and approach to leadership. It doesn't have to be one way or another. Right.

Okay, so I feel like I need a sort of a quick download on how you perceive the relationship between music and leadership, like what is the, what is the main thrust of that idea?

The main thrust of that idea is really taking that both and approach, you know, aside a think of the old 40 fives that we used to listen to, or I used to listen to way back when they had aside a and that was that popular song that was a song that we all ran out to, you know, put our finger set peaches records through and side B was published that or it was recorded but unpublicized. Okay, and I think of leadership as Site A are all your resume building skills, yeah, of skills you need to have with negotiation, and budgeting and planning and strategic planning by B are our people skills. Right. And so those are skills that I've built 10 archetypes off of that include curiosity, and passion, sincerity and certain, and courage, all of these different personality skills that help us really tune in with our people. And I have to tell you, Amanda, I have to tell you, this idea came to me when I was at a concert. Yes, three, four years ago, I went to the stress concert in Atlanta. To see them. They're one of my favorite bands. And I wanted to get front row seats, but I forgot. And these quaint venues that the bottom floor is called the mosh pit. Yep, right. And being at my age, then I was not going to be jumping up and down in the mosh pit. Husband and I ran up to the balcony, and we got first row center stage balcony. Nice. It was beautiful. But then I had this glance, and I looked down. And I couldn't take my eyes off of the way that the musicians and the fans were really collaborating and engaging and work in sync with each other, and having a great time. So I thought to myself, Why can't leaders rock this same kind of attention with their employees or teams, as musicians do with their fans? And the concept was born.

Yeah, I love it. And so it's the skills, the side b skills are the is the ability to co create, and like excitement and music and the experience but with leaders in their teams, is that right?

That is partially it. That is really where we dive into not only the metaphor, but into tools and tactics. Okay, so think of it this way. And this is the best way for me to describe it. If you think of a drummer on the stage, what is their role? Their role is to keep tempo to keep the song moving forward. Right? That is their role in the band. So think of their a side a business skill. Side, a business skill would be a forward thinker, a visionary somebody who's going to keep either a department or a company, their sales territory moving forward. Right. So what is the side B skill that complements that the side b people skill is curiosity? Because if we're going to get things moving forward, we need to ask a lot of questions, be curious and investigate and research. So it's really looking at aside a business skill and decide be people skill, because when we tap into curiosity, we can actually then start working with our people by asking them questions, and making them feel valued. And important. Hmm.

Okay. And each field has a side a sort of what you're used to saying is your skill and a side b that actually helps to create the outcome you're looking for.

Correct? Fascinating. All right. Well, and the reason I did this is because there was a lot of talk about and as you know, a lot of talk about being empathetic and vulnerable, right. There are many leaders that Have that within them. But they don't bring it out. It's not one of their top people skills. So how can we take traits of being curious? would be open minded, experimental, passionate, those traits and find out what a person's natural natural behavior is within them, and then tell them and then show them that, hey, if you tap into this curiosity with your people, then you're going to get the results that you want.

Okay, so the idea then, or is you so you're doing this with leaders in relationship with them through coaching and speaking or something? How do you work with leaders? I mean, not assume, how do you actually work with leaders? Like what kind of work are you personally doing?

Well, right now, I've got three different three different packages that I do, obviously, I work with leaders one on one, we can work, the ideal leadership package is six months, right? That way, we get into all the skills, everything. And I also do work with will do workshops, workshops with 10, emerging leaders at once. They will have an individual call with me before I come in and do a workshop. That way we talk about their individual skills. Then when we get into the workshop, we look to see do we have a complete band? sitting at the table?

Band? Love it? Yeah.

Are we able to go in harmony? Are we able to work together and collaborate in harmony as a band? Right? And that's really you know, what we do, but we talk about active listening, visionary ideas, building your own leadership identity, how to collaborate, how to build your people up. So it's a complete course on really building yourself. So you reflect on yourself. You refine your own skills, and then you remix it with your people and others. Hmm,

interesting. Okay. I love this metaphor, first of all, because it's fun, right? And you know, who hasn't? Even if you have no rhythm and cannot hold a tune? Everybody has at one point in their lives wanted to be in a band. I think?

Worse. We've all wanted to be in a band. Yeah. Yeah.

If just for the groupies. Right. Exactly. So there's something kind of fun loving about that, that I feel is sometimes missing and like leadership, coaching and leadership support, right? It's like, no, let's, let's do cool things together. And I love that you bring that sort of fun lovingness into their, into this like World of development?

I think, really, thank you. It's been a passion of mine. And I usually start with that how you feel about your leadership, right? Would it be okay, and a lot of people might pick a song that is, you know, I've heard songs from Good riddance. To happy, right. So people pick a lot of songs. And by the end of the workshop, everybody is comes up with a collaborative song together. Oh, you think that their their theme song for the next year? Oh, that's awesome.

I like that a lot. So tell me like, yeah, yeah, exactly. It makes it fun. And it gives them something like everyone's like, I will, when you like, have it as someone who gives workshops as well, you know, you have to be like, here are the things your people will walk away from the workshop. And, you know, okay, thank you for this worksheet. But a song gives such an interesting, like, common language, and you can play it and you can talk about it and it's, it's light hearted. I really like that as like a like a concrete takeaway from time together. This this is what we're hoping to create together. And of course, it also taps into the group of people who are often don't feel like they can quite find their voice in teams with they're more creative. Is that part of it, too? Like trying to get that it's up those guys?

Exactly. So you know what we're trying to give as an overall experience that everyone knows their place. in their role in the band, their voice in the band, and how to really harmonize together, because each person needs a seat at that table. You know, myself being dyslexic, I had a very hard time coming up with ideas on the spot. Give me a few minutes to think about it or, or reflect on it. And my ideas, we go creative. Well, some leaders thought that that was too late, too short. Too bad, right? So we have to really think about what each person brings to the table, and how can we engage in that so that everyone feels valued and respected. The other thing is, they also walk away and take away their own leadership playlist, where they have, you know, we create a set of feelings or things that may be may be happening, right? So when you're overwhelmed, how can you change that perspective, in a matter of a moment, you can do that with music. Turned, when you listen to a song, it changes your mood instantly, if you find that, right. So, yeah.

So then you leave becomes more than a metaphor, it's actually a part of the skill set.

Correct. And so they create a leadership play with playlist with things that they may be feeling that they want to overcome quickly, which might be when somebody walks in and disrupts them, maybe it's anger, you know, give me three minutes, I'll be with you in a moment, play that song and let them come in. You know, it just helps that, that mood change in a matter of a moment if you need focus. But each song is going to be individual. And I always tell people don't have more than five songs, five to 10 songs on that playlist. And it will change throughout time, because other songs will motivate you, other songs will help you. But the good thing about it is, you don't get stuck going down a rabbit hole trying to find that song, you immediately go to it and do something about

that. That feels really like there's something about that that extends, let me say it this way. Everybody says if you feel angry, take a deep breath, and then engage in the conversation. But there's something about this, that feels much more practically useful. So it's like it's going to take a minute. You might need like an escape and but it provides actual skill development. Because instead of being angry with yourself that you're angry, you're human, you're allowed to have feelings. Here's an actual, workable, you know, it's doesn't take too long for it to to act, but it's longer than just a second, which I feel like leaders are often really hard on themselves. They're not always the master of themselves. And this is a great right

strategy. Exactly. And, and it has proven over and over and over again, just with people that I've talked to. They call me and they're like, Wow, that is amazing. I was able to focus on the work I needed to focus on because they were procrastinating. Yeah, so what do we need to do? Right?

So you have a song for procrastination on your list?

I do.

What's a good song for procrastination?

For me, it's the bright side of the road by Van Morrison. Because I like listening to him and then I'm like, Okay, I gotta get to that bright side of the road. That or before I used to use three little birds by Oh, Bob Marley. Yeah. Bob Marley. Yep. What

other songs so there's one if you're angry and one if you're procrastinating what other songs are on the list?

Well, there's one of your angry one. If you're procrastinating one of you need focus, right? So for me for focus is really what I get into is Billy Joel, the stranger. Yeah, but the thing is, is each person has to come up with what they need. So I also need motivation. Now I'll have a list of words prepared for them. But I need motivation sometimes. Yeah, it's hard to bet. But if I put on and you're gonna laugh at this, I think I'll put on right now. Use Funkytown. Right? Oh, well, you

take me to Funkytown that one. Exactly. I like

that. One. If I in a quirky mood, and I need to get creative, I will listen to Jonathan Richmond and the Modern Lovers. Ice cream, man.

Wow, you have a very eclectic music like taste

palette as well, that's the thing, Amanda, I also use music as a form of reflection. A lot of people when I keep up your journal, by the way, my car with me if I'm driving, and if I hear a lyric, I write the lyric down and what I'm feeling at the moment. So I hear a lyric. And it's just a new medium for reflection for me. Some people don't like to read books, some people don't like to journal. But if you can tap in or tune in or hear a lyric that makes you feel something, you can start reflecting on that.

Yes, oh, it's so true. In fact, that's one of my, you know, when I was writing great work, the book that I wrote came out in June, I have actually playlists that connect to each chapter that to me are extremely meaningful that I'm, you know, like, I don't know if they're really meaningful to others. But to me, it feels like the beating heart, like almost the soul of the chapter is in the playlist.

I think that's beautiful. Because the playlist is so important. But then what's important is it may not be relevant to somebody else. But somebody reading that is now gets to know you better. Oh,

that's a good point. Maybe I should share them. Do you have playlists? Do you have like Spotify playlists that you share?

I have a yep, I have a Spotify playlists. It's called the PW experience. I also have, I wrote a song for each chapter in my book, and recorded it and it has a QR code to link to YouTube. And that's on Spotify.

Wait, you wrote the songs yourself?

Did I wrote the lyrics, I co wrote the lyrics and CO produced the songs for each one of those.

Give us the link so we can put it in the show notes so people can get to know your book and you better fabulous. Yes. Okay. So I want to hear what it's like to be you because you are fascinating to me. What? What is the biggest joy that you get from doing this work with these leaders?

You know, I love this question. Because it is so important to value and to have excitement in the work that you do. And the joy that I get is that aha moment when leaders, emerging leaders finally understand that they too can have a voice and know how to do it. It doesn't have to be your typical way. We can tap in to different areas, and they get that aha moment. And that brings me joy, to see that. It's almost like when I have that aha moment at the concert. Yeah, that's what I see.

I think there's something so lovingly strengths based in what you're describing, because it's like maybe you don't feel like you resonate exactly with being vulnerable or empathic, which you mentioned are like sort of the the buzzwords, but you're curious. You're, you know, there's something where it's like who you are as a person is fine. It's enough, you can be a great leader. And that even the idea of the side be okay, I'm not much of a music historian or anything like that. But I feel like it's a side B, when people say side B, they're often talking to the cult, kind of following the one that gets the cult following that people maybe don't know about but becomes, you know, the one that the insiders love, or the sort of quirky piece of artwork that true fans appreciate. Does that sound right?

In a way so twofold. So side B was a way for artists because they knew it was not going to be unpublicized. At first, it was now called the B side right. And the DJs and record producers finally named it that because they started getting popular. But if you go back to the very, very beginning In have in history, this side b was where artists could be themselves and really try to do something different for their fans.

Yes. And that feels to me, like a big part of your message. Am I right about that?

It is I call it your hidden hits. Right? Side B, are your hidden hits those ones that we don't bring to work often, but we need to if we're going to be extraordinary leaders, and really serve our teams and corporations. Yes. I think of the side be Maggie Mae was a side be right by Rod Stewart. Wipe out was a sight be really? Yes. Beth, from Kiss, you know, the heavy metal rock band with boots and painted faces? Yeah, they tried something different and did the rock band or the soft Ballad of Beth. And Beth was their longest play best hit ever?

Ah, try something. Ah. This is such a robust metaphor. I haven't thought about it. Like even for an hour, and I'm just blown away by how much there's like how much depth there is in it.

Right. And you just keep going. You know, right now, as I told you at the beginning, I'm looking at music through the decades, and how it actually came how it actually represents the economic and political forces that were happening during that time. Yeah,

yes, absolutely. So, Paul, what? Okay, so what is it about? The music side of things? So has it just always been a passion? Like, it's like you were born with a passion for music? And it's a word? Did you have a defining moment? Like, what is it about music that comes like that feels so powerful to you as a tool to use in your work?

I have to tell you, that music started with me. When I was swimming as a 10 year old competitive swimmer. i We didn't have earbuds with music and right. When I got into the pool, went in rhythm and sync with my heartbeat to keep pushing myself and created songs in my own head. Right? Yeah, to get yourself going. Because you're always thinking doesn't stop even though you're cool. And then as I got older, in seventh eighth grade, I found myself struggling on this is when I was diagnosed with dyslexia, found myself struggling with tests. And it wasn't necessarily the test or the knowledge. It was the anxiety of the test taking. So I started putting everything to music. So when I got into the test, I could sing those things in my head. Yeah, right. Yeah. So yes, music has been a part of me. But as I was climbing the corporate ladder, I turned off my music. And, yeah, and, and that's when, when I went to the concert, it opened my eyes again, that we really need to have rhythm and harmony and, and really take music to that next level within our own within companies, corporations, because it helps with loyalty, retention, productivity, all of those great things. And so

the concert that you were describing, where you had that aha moment, that was what brought music back to you, did it have a big impact on you and your own personal journey up the corporate ladder? Or through the sales ranks? Or did it have that impact on you?

It sure did. So, with that, yeah. So you know, when I got music back into my career, or into my, into my soul, really, I started using that to motivate my team, to speak with my team to come up with theme songs for each year. And each year we started growing and people were staying, it wasn't churn and burn anymore. And then we would have you know, We would have many little times where we would talk about our favorite concerts just to break down the wall. In a brainstorming meeting, put away the information that you can get from there. So it had a great impact on word retention. But it also had a great impact on productivity, because I might hear a lyric that reminded me of somebody and I would write just a small note to him. Hey, this song reminded me of you today.

Ah, okay. So basically what you're saying here is for when I first heard this story, I thought you were already like a leadership consultant. And this is just your shtick, but it actually sounds like this is how you personally were able to build a successful team and have your own soul. And you know, discover your own side V skills. And now you're bringing it to the world because you know, it works.

That's correct. That is absolutely. Right. Because here, interestingly, I left corporate to do this, because I found it so impactful.

Yeah. Right. Well, that's great. I love it. There's a really deep level here that I'm having a hard time putting my like finger on something about, like, sort of related to, you know, centering voices that don't have that are often heard, or can be silenced. In regular sort of corporate environments. There's something about that there's something about like being strength space, it's a very whole person. But humanistic, soulful way to go about helping people be their whole selves

at work. I love that you get this. It is so exciting for me to hear that you get it as I talk, because a lot of people go music and leadership. What does that mean? And it's not just music and leadership, it is reflection, it's bringing your whole self, it's you know, and in my book, I talk about Henry, a CEO. And we start at the beginning of his journey through each chapter, I can see the transformation. And that was really kind of my transformation. Oh, wow. Right. So you'll, you'll, that's a little tip. Nobody really knows.

Yeah, we are on the inside. Now. You're on the inside

now. But it really, you know, music brings people together is a universal language. And if we can, if we can be able to hear other people's voices, and delights, what a great, great world this would be. Hmm,

that is such a good, sort of like, mic drop moment right there. Okay, well, I love it. And now I'm like, what, why haven't I have I not read this book? I think I thought, Oh, it's a leadership development book. I don't think I understood, but now I do. And I will get it. I will read it. And I am going to encourage others to do the same. Obviously, we'll put a link to the book so that everyone can buy it and read it. But how else could people get a little like get just get more of you and your perspective? And this, this richness?

So yeah, thank you. You all can follow me on LinkedIn. Go to my website at Paula s white.com. And if you're really really interested in if this is something you want to find out which archetype you are, yeah, drummer, the rhythm guitarist, the lead guitarist, the vocalist, if you have courage, passion, trustworthy sincerity. And you can go onto my website under the side b band and take the assessment. It is $40 to take the assessment, but I will tell you, you get to understand what's naturally within you.

Oh, that's so it's almost like a personality test. Yeah, absolutely. Oh, that's fun. I'm definitely um, I'm gonna bug out over there here and a hot get. And if somebody wanted to think about bringing you in for their own team, how would they do that?

Again, they could reach out to me via LinkedIn or email me. Go onto my website, fill out a contact form. I love working with teams, emerging leaders, mid level managers, or even your senior level management team. It's really an opportunity to bring cohesiveness and a little bit of fun and they experience oh my god,

and do we need some fun right now? We certainly do. Everything's really heavy but the sound It's light.

It's very, very light. And what it does is it brings productivity and fun loyalty, which in the end, obviously adds to the bottom line. Yeah, profitability, right.

Yeah, absolutely. And cohesiveness and like enjoying your time at work, which of course leads to engagement and retention, which is all really important.

Absolutely. Ah,

Paula, this was amazing. Thank you so much for your time. I really genuinely enjoyed every minute of it. I can't wait to read your book and take your assessment. And thank you so much for your time.

Oh, Amanda, it's been my pleasure. I have been, like I said, wanting to get we've been planning this for over a year. And I'm just glad that it's here. And you know, you are an amazing, amazing person. And I just appreciate all that you do for the world and your great work.

Thank you, Paula. Likewise.