🎙️ Special Ed Rising: No Parent Left Behind

In this episode, Mark sits down with Julie M. Green, author of Motherness, a memoir exploring generational autism, parenthood, and radical acceptance. A 2024 finalist for the CBC Nonfiction Prize, Julie’s writing has appeared in The Washington Post, The Globe and Mail, HuffPost, Parents, Chatelaine, CBC, and Today’s Parent, among others.

Julie shares her journey as the mother of an autistic son and her own later-in-life autism diagnosis. She reflects on navigating the early 2010s autism landscape, when resources were limited and the pressure on parents to “correct” their children was intense. Together, Mark and Julie explore how the rhetoric around autism has shifted from awareness to acceptance — and why that shift is critical.

They discuss the challenges families face within educational systems that often prioritize conformity over inclusion. Julie emphasizes that behavioral struggles are often signs of unmet needs, not defiance, and that meaningful support should focus on improving quality of life rather than enforcing normalization.

The conversation also explores masking and its impact on mental health, the complexity of identity within the autistic community, and the importance of representation — including a discussion about the release of the Autistic Barbie and what true inclusion requires beyond symbolic gestures.

At its core, this episode is about self-understanding, self-compassion, and rethinking what support should look like for autistic individuals and their families. As Julie shares, she wrote the book she wished she’d had — offering an insider perspective that helps others feel seen and understood.

About Julie M. Green

Julie is the author of Motherness, a memoir of generational autism, parenthood, and radical acceptance. In 2024, she was a finalist for the CBC Nonfiction Prize. Her work has been widely published across major media outlets, and she writes The Autistic Mom on Substack.

Connect with Julie:

1. Website: https://juliemgreen.ca
2. Book: https://juliemgreen.ca/books-1
3. Substack: https://theautisticmom.substack.com/

Key Takeaways

1. The rhetoric around autism is shifting from fixing to accepting.
2. Parents have historically carried immense pressure to conform their children to societal norms.
3. Quality of life — not compliance — should guide autism support.
4. Educational systems often prioritize conformity over inclusion.
5. Behavioral challenges are frequently signs of unmet needs.
6. A mindset shift is necessary to interpret autistic behaviors as communication.
7. Radical acceptance embraces the full complexity of neurodiversity.
8. Masking can have serious mental health impacts.
9. Representation matters, but it must be meaningful and nuanced.
10. Personal narratives foster empathy and help others feel understood.

Sound Bites

1. “The onus was very much on parents.”
2. “It’s about improving quality of life.”
3. “I wrote the book I wish I’d had.”

Suggested Titles

1. Redefining Autism: From Fixing to Accepting
2. Navigating Autism: A Journey of Radical Acceptance
3. The Parent’s Journey: Rethinking Autism Support

Chapters

00:00 – Introduction and Background

06:15 – Acceptance vs. Fixing

10:06 – Inclusion, Support, and Educational Systems

27:57 – Masking and Mental Health

specialedrising.com

https://www.gofundme.com/f/join-rays-respite-care-mission

Hi. Good morning.

Hi Julie, how are you?

yeah

another time. Yeah, that'd nice to explore that another time with you. would, yeah, but I would love to get your perspective on it

Julie Green, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for being here. It's a pleasure. it's my pleasure.

Thanks for having me.

I'm wearing my Canada shirt today because I think you're the first Canadian that I'm interviewing. So yes.

Thank you. ⁓ thank

you. Thank you.

Yes, I'm very excited. You can't

see the bottom of it,

just

What's that? nice. well, even better. Solidarity.

Yeah. Yeah. That part's not going on screen,

I was doing an episode of my own on the release of the

new

autistic.

Barbie doll.

and that's how I came across you because you were quoted in an article and I want to get into that a little bit. I want to get into your book and I want to talk about the idea of inclusion and I think that's from what I understand that's kind of what everything you do coalesces at the idea of inclusion.

and want to talk about your experiences, maybe if you want to talk a little about your son and all that kind of stuff. if we can get just a little bit of your story, your background, and maybe what led you to the Autistic Mom. I'm sorry. It is Autistic Mom. Yeah, OK. That's the substack, correct.

that's right. The autistic mom. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That's the sub stack. Sure.

Hahaha

and well it was a really steep learning curve because you know the internet was not what it is today the information there was no such thing really as autism communities and autistic advocates and all this information was not just there readily at your fingertips so it was like here's this diagnosis that you know nothing about off you go ⁓ maybe maybe a social worker will phone you once and then

Okay, yeah.

Yeah, good luck.

Yeah.

you know, good luck,

get all the therapies, do everything really quickly, you know, otherwise your child is doomed. ⁓ So yeah, it was like an Everest for us as parents.

Yes, right, exactly.

and figure

it out on your own, a lot of it, right?

Yeah, figure it out.

And a lot of what we figured out honestly was getting connected to a parent group and some of the other moms there said, you know, do you know about this funding? Do know about this? Do know about that? And they would connect me to things because I think unfortunately back in that day there was no like central caseworker. I think I had one call with a social worker. There was no follow up. was no, it very much was, you know, good luck. See you later. And you know, like a lot of people, just, we didn't

Wow. Wow.

really know, we knew Rain Man, we knew very broad stereotypes. so I was a staff writer at a parenting magazine at the time. so ironically,

abroad, right? Exactly.

I was writing more about current events and that type of thing. And then obviously the more I learned about my son, I started to blog and write a little bit about autism and our experience because again, it was fairly, fairly new space and it wasn't until a few years into that. So I was writing for magazines and this this this parenting site.

and another mom connected with me online whose son was diagnosed and it turned out that she had also been diagnosed. I think she was maybe in her early 30s then and I'd never actually come across an autistic woman. They were like mythical unicorns you know because even Temple Grandin like wasn't such a known you know eventually

we got Temple Grandin, we got the HBO, we got Claire Danes and you know but that was still like I couldn't see myself in Temple Grandin but this woman and I really saw myself in her and I thought but again I was still on the fence thinking well it's so I'm so different to my son yet every now and then things would align with my son and I think hmm

Right. ⁓

especially, you know, sensory issues, but in some ways he really conformed to the idea of like what a typical male profile would look like, you know, we had the Thomas trains and all the stereotypes lining those up and yeah. ⁓

Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's right.

lining them up right exactly

But I really did, this woman really kind of opened my eyes to see that potentially, but again, I was like, what's the point? At the time too, I'm fighting all the fires. I'm trying to figure out, advocate for my son in school. And he was trying to find the right placement for him. So really my own needs were really on the back burner for years. And then,

Mm-hmm.

Right, exactly.

Eventually, so we're going on close to 10 years, I had this conversation with my family doctor and said, hey, you know what, I think I might be.

what do you think? And she said, well, I have no problem referring you for an assessment because she knew obviously my full medical history, lots of mental health challenges, which are often, you know, code in women, you know, where autism is missed as part of a bigger picture. anyway, so she referred me for this assessment and right in the middle of COVID, I sort of forgot about it. And then a year later had this assessment and then yeah, low and

hold I was also diagnosed it was like this whole 10 year period because just so little was known I mean had I known 10 years earlier I don't know would it have made a difference I don't know and and just in the zeitgeist or whatever there was just it was still not yet a thing so what would it have you know

Right, how would it have changed your life?

I don't really know. ⁓

a little bit of a in here

Yeah, would have given you any kind of insight that maybe

helped with your relationship with this owner. Or was that basically going to happen anyway, your relationship, in the way it unfolded?

Exactly and I think a lot of people think I wish I had known and but back in the 70s and 80s and you know in the dark ages when I grew up you know you can't felt people we didn't know what we didn't know

But at the same point, think there's no shelf life for finding out. I've heard from, especially since writing the book, I've heard from people in their 60s and 70s and the light bulbs going off now. I think there's no timeline on actually being able to have that insight and understanding and just the repair work that happens to understanding that you're neurodivergent versus...

Yeah.

right, the benefits that come with it.

you know, you've got personality flaws, you're the all the things that you're labeled when you don't have the right label. So you're, you know, drama queen, you're difficult, you're super rigid, you know, why am I falling apart at different things? Why can't I do the things that other people do? So I think at any stage, it does really help to reframe and have an accurate name for

Right, right.

your neurotype.

Yeah, I would think to be able to identify

with something leaves you some light, right? Because basically you're in the dark and so you're wondering and yes, you're taking on what other people's criticisms are of you and you're blaming yourself for this and for that. But there may actually be a reason that you then can say, okay. So did that experience happen for you? Was like, this kind of light went on.

Yeah,

absolutely. And it's not like, I think people also think, well, what's the point now? I mean, what are you going to get? Yes, you could get therapy. It's not like you're suddenly going to get all this funding and support from the government because as we know, that's really geared at young children and then it just steadily drops off. But...

Especially right,

yeah, once they graduate high school, it really drops off. Okay, so you're there.

Yeah, yeah, we're facing we're at the cliff edge right now. So but

but I think even in terms of having your there's so many things you can do even just to accommodate yourself. So you know, yes, I could go out and get these therapies and at least having that understanding therapy would be more effective because you're you're understanding the lens, you know,

and the right kind of having a therapist who sort of understands autism and your experience, obviously would be vital. But just generally in the day to day, there are so many ways that I now accommodate myself and I'm far more forgiving and understanding of my boundaries and my limits and not pushing to burn out and not beating myself up. So I think

you know in that respect yes it probably would have been nice to know earlier because it would have been healthier probably for me I wouldn't have been sick and crashing out so much. ⁓

Yeah.

Yeah. Because

you'd have understanding and sympathy and more compassion for yourself too. Self-compassion is really important.

Yeah, so I think honestly the benefit of it really is such an inward personal thing. I think social media paints it like it's this attention-seeking narcissistic behavior, you know, why would someone in their 30s or 40s or older want to somehow claim that they're autistic because they're not like Ray Man. But again, honestly, it's nobody's business really.

No, it's all about the individual, right? The person, yeah. And two, I would...

It's such a personal, yeah, yeah, for sure. it might my

journey takes nothing away from my son's journey and his experience and than anybody else's, you know. ⁓

And maybe it even brings

you closer, you know, maybe it brings you closer in a different way that you didn't understand before. Did that, that kind of happen?

Yeah, I mean this is,

this is I think that unfortunately our community is really divided right now.

and a lot of people want to break it up. mean, personally, I do still see autism as a giant umbrella. can hurt. At times it can seem like we are so different. How are we? How is this one condition? And I think there's a lot of people who feel very conflicted at different ends. But I think ultimately there is that commonality in terms of traits.

you

And there's there is so much variability, but there are these common traits that I was seeing in myself and my son and the way to support each of these people is slightly different. But I personally do still feel we are it is it is one neurotype in one condition. And it's not to say, you know, one person is more worthy or not than the other. It is just.

It is just different. know, one person's needs can really much be very geared towards communication, whereas one person is very much towards emotional regulation or sensory needs or, you know, I do think it's a disability, but it disables people in slightly different ways. Yeah.

Right, that's,

yeah, everybody's uniquely themselves, right? And I think labels are important because it gets you the services, but too, at the same time, we're all just who we are, right? So, and we're a variety. ⁓ One thing you mentioned about

Yeah.

your therapist,

I wondered if that was, like, somebody who's hearing me now, someone's seeing me in a way,

that I'm now recognizing myself, but there's an outside person who's looking in at me and saying, okay, I see you, Julie, I'm not critiquing you, I'm not criticizing you, I'm not calling you rigid or what all the other potential descriptives. Was that like revelatory for you? Was that something that you internalized? Was that a recognition on your part or did that not really impact you so much?

I think I just sat on the fence for so long that I just, think I wanted someone to definitively say, you know, here's the rubber stamp. I don't know. I'm from a family, somewhat medical background and a lot of, think in my, from my background, I just felt, I know for a lot of people, self-diagnosis is totally valid, but for me, I felt like I needed some...

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

outside and clinical evaluation ⁓ for it to really be cemented. I know and it's that's fine a lot of people don't need that and I think that's great. They can go away because unfortunately you know there are barriers to diagnosis and people don't have

Mm-hmm.

the same access to supports or even assessment that I did. So it's really not an option or it's not safe for a lot of people. So I think it's valid however you come at it. But for me personally, I needed that a more formal, rigorous assessment and process. So it was more about like, okay, there it is in black and white. I have the report.

Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

now I can stop wondering and I can just get on with it. But it's true.

Would you consider yourself? Yeah, go ahead.

sorry, I was just going to say it's true in most cases where people self diagnose and then a year or two later or whenever they end up getting the formal diagnosis anyway. most times, you're not seeking out something out of the clear blue sky. Most times when people really do suspect it, they're often right. ⁓ It is often medically validated or whatever, validated by a clinician.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah.

Right.

So you're in Ontario, Canada, is that correct? Okay. So I wonder, you were kind of inferring and I'm just curious about this, is there a stigma towards autism in Canada or is it more readily accepted? Is it, how do you feel the perspectives of the general public are towards autism? Because we know what...

how things are unfolding in our country here. There's a lot more identification. And yes, a lot more adults are going and finding out. I've met several adults that have found out they were autistic later in life. And I think it's a wonderful thing. But there's a kind of miscarriage of justice going on right now in our country as far as the perspectives on autism. And I wonder if there's a stigma in Canada or if it's a little bit more accepting in your country. Or do you have a feel for it?

⁓

I think a lot unfortunately is, I mean we're grossly lacking in services as well. I think a lot is lip service. I think on the face of it, there's some awareness. I mean I keep thinking how many years do we have to have these autism awareness months, until we can we not just

you know, have acceptance rather than awareness. I feel like there's a lot, of information out there. This should be a lot of awareness. ⁓ But I think I don't know how much better or further ahead we are, honestly. Sadly, you know, I think I think on the surface of things, I mean,

acceptance.

You are. Yeah, yeah.

things are improving a little bit or at least there are attempts but I think when you go into schools and you go into you ask families and their everyday life what's inclusion looking like in a real sense then you yeah that's where things fall down somewhat so a lot is a lot is optics unfortunately.

Yeah, yeah, that's okay.

Yeah, it seems to be everywhere. It seems to be everywhere. Well, that kind of is a great bridge to how I met you or how I found you, I should say. I'm meeting you for the first time, but I was doing a episode on the Autistic Barbie, the release of the Autistic Barbie by Mattel. And I came across your quote because we were talking about inclusion. And my perspective was that,

Yes, it's great to kind of represent, but are we surfacing the whole thing? Are we not going deeper? Are we not talking about the system? Are we not talking about inclusion and diversity? And I'll let you speak to it. I could quote you, because I have your quotes. But maybe you could just give us your reaction to when that came out and even in the article when you were interviewed, what your perspective is.

Yeah, the funny thing is, I mean, I'm not, I wasn't like having strong opinions either way. I just happen to be quoted. I mean, on the surface, as I said, I think any attempt at representation is a step in the right direction. So I wasn't like greatly opposed to it. I just thought I just wanted to offer some caution.

I think that people realize that, you know, autism is an invisible disability. So if we have this doll, it's...

you know inherently going to be a little bit problematic because there isn't one look you know that's the whole expression if you've met one person with autism you've met one person so this is one one Barbie doll framing one one particular version I mean they tried to add in all these things to potentially cover

One version.

the more like a bigger larger swath of it right now.

you know different yeah like okay

like the hands will will move to potentially allow for flapping will not everybody flaps people stim in different ways so a lot of people mask you know there there isn't a single look so although you know so i wasn't greatly opposed to it because i think it's a nice it's a nice step but it's it's such

Right.

Yes.

you know, small potatoes and the grand scheme of things, you know, I get more excited when I see, for instance, like, you know, when Sesame Street had its autistic character, because then in stories and in children's books and that sort of thing, you're far more able to like portray the nuance and the complexity of autism and

and actually in a much more effective teachings tool for children and for people to understand what autism can actually be like and how to interact and all these things. Whereas in a, you know, a doll is a doll. So, I mean, I think and, you know, quite cynically, I just thought, hmm, why are they doing this? They're doing this. It just felt like a bit of a marketing.

Yeah. This is happening often.

quite honestly, you know, it's going to be a collectible. It's going to be it's great if some children if some children really see themselves and it fantastic, you know, I'm not going to I'm not going to fault that but all I did was kind of want to add that caveat that just bear in mind this is an attempt at representation but it's you can't actually tell by looking at people, you know,

Yeah.

Right.

I struggled with it myself because I thought, you know, any recognition of a group that's not being recognized as a full member of society is a good thing, right? So given that, but yes, we do know all the varieties that we all come in, but all the varieties of autism and all the ways they display themselves. And yes, you can't do all those things in one doll.

So I was curious because I thought, OK, on the one hand, they are attempting inclusion, but how far are we going to go? Are they going to just stop at, we did it, and this is it? Or is there going to be some sort of movement behind it? If Mattel stood up and said, OK, now we're developing programs to work on inclusion, take it another step. And I'm not saying they should.

But it seems to me like if you're gonna make that step, that gesture, then maybe there should be more to it in the sense that we wanna be able to teach people, we wanna educate people, right? And teach about acceptance of all people. And I love that you said the Awareness Month should be Acceptance Month. That's very astute.

Well, I mean, I, I don't know how far the sort of responsibility of one mega toy company goes, but I, it was such a good opportunity. Yeah, I mean, what I had said, I don't think it came out in the interview, but what I, what I had said when I was being interviewed was I think a helpful thing would have been if Mattel had put a tiny insert in the box saying, this is just,

I agree, I agree, I'm just saying it's not their responsibility necessarily, it's almost like you're opening the door to it.

you know, it is invisible. is, you know, just like a tiny kind of descriptor ⁓ that may have helped to go along and maybe get people thinking. And then here's further resource reading, whatever, for parents. you know.

That's great idea.

Mm-hmm.

I doubt the people who aren't somehow connected to autism already would be buying this doll. So it wouldn't, it would already be sort of preaching to the choir anyhow. But I think something like that would have been helpful because that would have been that little educational piece and also the little bit of a, this is our attempt, but just know that it's not actually.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Artisan isn't a one-size-fits-all. Mm-hmm.

It's this, right, exactly.

Yeah, I think that's a great idea. I mean, I think it's a simple way for them to actually be a little bit more expansive in what they were trying to do. So did you end up talking about that at all in your interview Did you mention that aspect of it?

I did, I don't think it made it into the article. You never quite know. There were some ways that I felt, know, it's tricky when you...

You did.

when you're just being quoted, some things get dropped, some context gets lost because they need to have people who look like they're on opposite sides of an argument when really I was kind of straddling both. Maybe I wasn't the right person to interview because I honestly didn't have

You

Hahaha

super super strong feelings one way or the other. I see the I see the positive of it but I just wanted that word of caution to go with it. So it's not like I was a strong opponent but

Yeah.

And I think it's hard to be a strong opponent to it because it is representation. So in and of itself, it's representation, it's recognition of a minority group that we want to include. So I can see walk in the fence, because I was there too, but not being autistic myself, I wondered if it came from a perspective as, was it deeper for you as someone who's identified now as autistic?

what was the perspective like for you? But I think you've answered that.

The funny thing is I was thinking too, if I'd had this doll as a child, it wouldn't have even registered anyway, because I wouldn't have even probably associated with this doll. That says it all, right? Yeah.

Well, that's the one thing I was thinking. Yeah, that's the one thing I was thinking too is like,

you know, if I can't explain it to my autistic child that this person is like you, I mean, you know, then really who is this doll for? Is it for the parent? or for the families so they can feel comfortable? I don't know. But like, as you said, if it brought comfort to one person, then maybe.

It's a lot of money towards something, it brought comfort to one person, then that might be worth it.

Absolutely, absolutely. I don't

want to fault any attempt. I just find the more effective attempts at education and stuff for children are through

books or cartoons or you know things where you can actually add a little bit more depth to the conversation. mean Mattel yeah I think they're really limited in what they maybe could have achieved bar maybe putting a little insert but I mean again where does their how far does their responsibility extend yeah yeah so

Right, can flesh it out some more.

Mm-hmm.

Where does it, where, yeah, what's the line? Yeah, yes.

Let's talk about your book, Motherness. So.

from your perspective of a mom raising an autistic child and then identifying yourself, do you want to talk about how that changed your understanding of your relationship, how it changed your understanding of self, and just even your relationship to the world too?

yeah just those little things. not enough coffee yet for this. Yeah

If you could summarize that in about two minutes, that would be great. right?

I mean we were always, I was always seeing these patterns of connection anyway, you know. I'd be saying for instance, here's a hack, know, don't use that dryer, that horrible air dryer in the public toilets, know, wave your hands when he was little. I remember thinking, you know, so I'd, or I'd tell people like my mother would buy him clothes and she said, it's soft, it's cotton. I touch it.

there's no way he's going to wear that. She's, what's wrong? There's nothing wrong with it. And I would just have this sort of sixth sense of understanding things, especially from an anxiety perspective, sensory perspective, that I would intuit that wasn't just a mother's intuition. It was an autistic mother's intuition. ⁓ I just didn't know that at the time. So obviously knowing that now, it made a lot more sense.

Hmm

Yeah. ⁓

And I think the benefit of knowing it is having these conversations with my son saying, you find this hard, I find this hard too. This is what I do when I find this and just letting him.

see the hard things and the good things and being able to talk about it openly because you know frankly it's it's hereditary a lot of these traits they're hereditary like any other traits you know when you're saying you have to wear glasses because your dad got glasses when he was at that age and you know to us it's a it's a similar conversation in our home. My partner has ADHD and my son has ADHD now so they all they all have this conversation too like your dad really struggled with this

in school, whatever this aspect for learning. So it's just part of these conversations we can have which is really nice and you know trying to model the self-compassion and because there's I think it's getting a little bit better but there was a spell of time where

My son obviously knew he was different. He knew he had this diagnosis and he really, really resented it because as a kid you want nothing more than to be exactly like your peers. Standing out is not what you're going for. You want to dress the same, you want to talk the same, you want to just blend and you know that's... I... yeah, be included and you know you're not.

Mm-hmm.

Sure.

Absolutely.

be included. Yeah.

even when you have the language and the framework to understand that. So he did not like the idea of being neurodivergent. And I think now he's hopefully starting to see it in a more rounded, a more rounded picture. And he's seeing the differences aren't all bad.

that there are some things that are hurt or and there are some things that are, you know, great strengths that he has and it's him. And, you know, wanting to or maybe not wanting to stand out so much, but not having such a problem with having those differences and sort of fighting it so much.

Mm-hmm.

it. Yeah. I mean, that's so typical.

Sure, that I've been so typical of a teenager anyway, right? I mean, all these struggles that you're dealing with, like self acceptance, and trying to fit in. I mean, it's like the two keys, right? And so it takes especially boys, typical boys or neurodivergent takes us a long time to figure it out, you know.

for sure.

Yeah, yeah. And

you know, my son, you know, in some ways I'm still human. I have these moments where I'm like, gosh, can't you just mask like I did? You know, can't you just get through it? It would be so much easier rather than fully being yourself all the time. Like he cannot tuck his autism away. And I mean, it's not good to mask, but in some ways when you're up against these systems,

Right.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

you know as a woman I did it and I had no no choice it was debilitating in terms of anxiety and mental health which yeah but at times as a parent and just you're like gosh can you just get through it but you know I think in my my son's case no some people just cannot mask but I think at times probably

Yeah, another aspect of being a woman, right, exactly.

Mm-hmm.

he wish he could as well you know so ⁓ it's just that age and stage as well I think so much of you know figuring out your identity and it's complicated for anyone even if they're neurotypical so without that extra layer of

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

But like we told

Well, too.

him early on because he was coming home saying, know, I'm bad. I'm not like the other kids. He was internalizing a lot of this messaging that he was a bad kid. He was a bad boy. He was getting in trouble. Why couldn't he just toe the line? You know, why was he having a hard time? So I did not want him going away with that message. we gradually...

Sure.

started to have these conversations.

And does he know he identifies as an autistic person? So when you say the masking, you were able to mask, is it that you didn't know that you were autistic? So these were just feelings that you were having that you knew weren't gonna be, they weren't gonna work for you out in society that you had to keep inside, unfortunately.

Mm-hmm.

Whereas he knows he's autistic and he knows these things come with it and some masking isn't really part of the deal for him. As far as like an actual recognition, does that make sense? Do know what I'm trying to say? Does it have any relevance at all?

Yeah, yeah, I don't think it's like a conscious

choice. I think he just he just some people just can't really mask as readily. ⁓

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

I agree, absolutely, right. I'm just wondering from your perspective, like, if you knew you were autistic earlier on, would you have tried to mask as much, or would it have given you kind of the freedom to be who you were? Does that make sense?

⁓

I think my drive to really be accepted would have been just still too too strong and just wanting to fit in and fly under the radar. I think I probably, I don't know, I probably still would have unless ⁓ I was growing up in a different time.

Okay.

Maybe now if there is more acceptance, I'm hoping today's girls maybe do feel a little bit freer to not mask so much. I really don't know. But obviously in the time I grew up, yeah, it was not masking or at least not trying to mask. It was not an option.

Yeah.

mm-hmm, not an option, yeah, yeah, that must have been so incredibly hard.

Well, I talk about a lot in the book. was was ill a lot.

But, I was gonna ask

because basically the more you you try to.

the more you mask, it's so bad for your mental health, but also your nervous system, you're containing everything all the time and all that stress and overwhelm would find its way out of my body. So even from a young age, I was having quite severe migraine attacks and throwing up and.

connected to a lot of social occasions and anxiety and nobody really understood any correlation then. We're starting to see that there's like a greater incidence of migraine and autistic people. ⁓ Yeah, so there's a different, yeah, this is different research. I don't have the exact figures, but I talk about it in this book and in my next one, which hopefully will.

Mm-hmm.

Huh, okay. Yeah, I hadn't heard that.

I've just finished writing that, but anyway. ⁓

Is it

like a continuation of motherness somewhat?

Somewhat. Yeah, somewhat.

You talk about narratives in the book.

So in Motherness you talk about fixing and overcoming and normalizing autism.

because you talk about, autistic awareness, it should be autistic acceptance.

When we talk about the idea of fixing or normalizing or overcoming autism, it's an offense to me as a non-autistic person. So I can only imagine what it's like as a mom of an autistic child and now as an autistic identified person yourself. You speak about this in the book. Could you speak to those?

well, I think I think in our case, again, I hope this is slightly different. Now there's a at the time the rhetoric was a lot different. It was you need early interventions.

Yeah.

I think the onus was very much on parents to, yeah, pretty much, do you want the best outcome? Your child won't be able to do X, Y and Z unless you hurry and do all of these things. And I'm not against therapy whatsoever, but it wasn't the way it was framed back then was basically to make your child as.

normal or look as normal as possible whether or not they were masking and just being able to toe the line and conform or whether they were actually changing and you know changing sort of natural autistic ways of being you know they're making eye contact or they're not they're you know sitting on their hands so they're not stimming whatever the case may be

So that was was framed in a very different way back then. It wasn't like, well, let's just get this person the supports they need to live the best life possible to be mentally and physically as happy and healthy as they can not to be as typical as they can, but to be, you know, the best version of themselves that they can be, which I think is what we hopefully have moved towards today. When we think of

Right, the best they can be.

supports for neurodivergent people, it's it's to, you know, improve quality of life for that person, rather than trying to make that person into something else. Because that was always the remit of certain set therapies that we won't mention.

right to fit.

you know and that's that is a problem that's where you get trauma you're trying to fix and change someone into something they're not and can't be and trying to do that comes at a big cost to their mental health etc etc so i think as parent as parents yeah like as as parents that's really the message you're sent initially and it's all your responsibility to you know how your child's going to fare in the future

Yeah, I'm not worthy.

is all on you and then of course you get into the school system and the whole lesson there as well is keep your head down, mask if possible, conform. You know I still don't really see in many senses that

Autism is really embraced. It's very much like, okay, well, you can have these couple, yeah, these couple accommodations that we just, these blanket accommodations that we give everybody. You can have more time to write a test. You can sit near the front, have different, you know, maybe you can type if handwriting is like...

over there.

It's just really, but the overarching message that I've seen in all the years, know, my son's 17 now and it has not shifted all that much. The message is still very much, need you to conform. and in order, yeah, so the message is either conform somehow if you can, mask and fake it and

Don't cause a problem. Yeah, sorry. I know you're asking someone very cynical because we've been through every like facet, every type of school placement, every school system, public, private, homeschooling, specials, autism placements, you name it. My son had changed schools something like six times, I think, by middle school up to middle school. Yeah.

Yeah, don't mess with the gears here. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

And that's really difficult. That

in and of itself is so hard because the lack of consistency is really, really damaging. Yeah, I mean, my heart goes out to you because it, and I'm glad for the cynicism because I think we need the cynicism because A lot of these things are brushed off, right? And if we don't bring the attention to it and say, this system needs to be fixed, not my child, right?

We need to rework how we approach this from the human perspective and the acceptance and the inclusive perspective and not trying to make you like me. Because, I mean, who am I? Right? It's like, what's our idea of what's acceptable? And that has to change right there. But yeah, go ahead.

Yeah, well, this is

it. We've always had to force ourselves into a different container, you know, because majority rules and majority has created all the systems that we have today. So I think the biggest thing is just this mindset shift at school, especially when it comes to behavior that, you know, someone's not giving you a hard time. They're having a hard time. So if there are difficulties, that is a

Yeah. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

a sign that there is a lagging, there's support needed. It's a sign that something is not working, you know, they're not coping. So it's not the onus is always on the child or the family. You know, I still get, I still get like, talk to your child. Okay, I'll talk to my child and suddenly he will not be disabled anymore, rather than what can we do about this whole system.

Yeah, and we need to change.

Okay.

everyone involved to like to make this work. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, how do we make the environment work for

him as opposed to him fitting into the environment? Because if we look at the person, say this is your needs, then we understand it. And then we change our language, how we speak to that person. We change our understanding and we open ourselves up. Open mindedness is to everybody's differences. And it's a complete reworking of how we are as a society, as it really is. We've gotten so deep.

into the negative and into the perfect types and as you said, the majority is, sometimes the minorities do win out because there's complicity, know, there's silence and people don't speak up. But in this case, it's the majority that rules. There's so much to talk about here and so much.

to explore and we don't have the time today to do that. I would love to have you back to continue. I want to talk about just literally the idea of acceptance and making spaces that matter and are inclusive.

to encourage more independence and acceptance into society? Do you have anything to say about that? Because you do some volunteering, right, with adults with developmental disabilities. From those experiences in that environment, what have you learned about inclusion and acceptance and things like that?

What's that experience been like for you in that, volunteering in that environment? Because is that something that's more recent for you?

I've actually had to pause it during the promotion of this book, but I had been doing it for a couple years and it's fantastic, but it's also a reminder to me as well that everyone's in a different place and needs different things. I just love it with the people and interacting with so many different characters. But again, it's like I have to balance my own capacity.

Mm-hmm.

and what I can handle because it's quite exhausting for me. So again it's like you would look from the outside and think well she's going there and supporting people but actually I still like have my own needs to try to think of. But it's great you know but again I find a lot of these things are underserved like this non-profit was at the very bottom of

sure.

the funding and my city, like there were a lot of like things like choirs and arts. I mean, I love the arts. I'm a huge fan of the arts. So I don't want to, I don't want to diss that, but in terms of like priority for funding, they've had a really, really hard time because I think it's, again, it tends to be like, if it's someone in your family, then really that is your responsibility. And ⁓

Mm-hmm.

prioritizing.

Hmm.

just sad because like not having people like hidden away back as things were it's just it's very rich to interact with all people you know no matter where where they're at they have so much to offer

I think just on a personal level as well is just it was a process for me and it's still the process because you know my son's a senior now and I'm thinking school is so important you know you need to get those credits and I sort of switch into that different mode sometimes of thinking you have to do things in this way there's this one clear path that you must take and I have to remind myself you know

Mm-hmm.

that it's not a cookie cutter to be there and support and accept and meet people where they're at. So that's like even hard as a parent and for myself, you know, trying to realize, try to nurture yourself and realize your limits and not berate yourself for those limits or, you know, and not still accepting and trying to mold my son into a certain.

shape but that's hard because you're trying to undo all these years and years of conditioning you know again I hope it may be slightly different for parents whose kids are just getting diagnosed now I would love to think it's a really different playing field ⁓ but yeah in terms of like my own conditioning and stuff and you know my son's got all this this like stuff to un

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. You'd like to take that.

to work through now as well because of what's, yeah, yeah, which sucks. And that leaves me with a lot of guilt and shame, but we can only move forward where we're at. And ⁓ we have a great connection and yeah.

Yeah, he's gonna unpack that. Yeah.

Exactly.

And that's the best you can ask for, really. I mean,

you do the best you can with the information that you have. And that's what I tell parents all the time. And I know there's the guilt. And I know it's easy to look back and say, I should have done this and I should have done that. in that moment, you make the best choice for yourself and for your son. And so you have to give yourself that grace. I think that's a message for all parents. What does radical acceptance mean to you?

Exactly.

Yeah.

I think it's, it's just accepting the whole package, right? There are some days, you know, I really bristle at so much of the portrayal of autism that it's this binary that it's either a superpower or it's a tragedy when the truth is really, you know, some days it feels like one, some days it feels like the other. It's really complex.

Mm-hmm.

You know, so it's accepting the whole package, like everything in between. Some days are really hard. They're hard for me, they're hard for my son. They're hard to exist in a world where these systems aren't supporting you and aren't accepting you. And other times, you know, other times you feel like you're on top of the world. But yeah, it's very complex. So I guess it's accepting all the pieces.

Yeah, they're not set up for it.

Yeah, that's great. Can you do a little blurb promotion for your book because I know you're...

I just made a face.

you're promoting it right now, there a certain anything that you could share with people to promote the book? Because to me, I want to get a copy of it. think it's... And I'm always curious, too, about like, we're in different countries and if you have a perspective or an insight into how the system is in America compared to Canada. And we could talk about that another time, but...

If you just have a little promotion for your book, we can leave this to hopefully encourage people to go buy it.

Yeah, I mean, all I can say is I wrote the book that I wish I'd had when my son was young. So it's about that journey, but it's also about the journey to accepting all these other versions of myself throughout my life and making peace with that.

I've heard, I can only say I've had a lot of people reach out to me who've really felt seen. They felt seen for the first time. And a lot of people who, don't live and breathe autism, who aren't in this space, have actually found the book really meaningful to them. And that's, think, a wonderful thing, because it's great to feel seen and read books that mirror your experience. But I think the real gift of memoir is to...

walk in someone else's shoes and really empathize with someone else's experience that is completely foreign to you. And I think that's really what we need in terms of autism awareness and acceptance is for people to really get an intimate and realistic take on.

what autism is like from the inside as opposed to maybe just a doll that is very two-dimensional and doesn't really tell you. But you know so I would love that honestly if it's great to me that people feel seen who are living this, who are parents or not parents. But it's even better in some ways when it speaks to someone who who doesn't have autism on their radar.

Yes.

who still really is moved by it and comes away from it with a different appreciation. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, richer and more fuller. Yeah, because

I think that's always the idea is like, we can't walk in everybody's shoes. And when we when we do finally experience something, that's when we finally have personal understanding, and then we can have more empathy for those that deal with the similar, whatever it is, more compassion.

Mm-hmm.

That's how I felt when I had my anxiety breakdown and just understanding that and realizing, my gosh, how many people are out there and looking like everything's fine because I was masking in order to be able to function, right? And so...

that just opened up that world of insight for me. I think having the book do that for others is an incredible service to people. So it's really wonderful. And you're such a pro because you made the tie-in to the Barbie doll at the end so well. That was really awesome. ⁓ Let's call it skill, okay? Let's give it credit where credit's due.

Happy accident, happy accident.

Julie, it's been so cool to meet you and to talk to you. I'm so grateful that you came on. I'm so grateful that I found you and just was like, you know, I need to talk to this person and that you're willing to do this.

Thank you, Mark, likewise.

Yeah, definitely

will be in touch because I want to have you come back on and we'll talk about your new book when it's out now. Not yet. Okay, you just wrote it. I'm sorry. You just finished writing it, correct? Okay. Gotcha. Okay. Okay.

I've just, I just, I just sent it to my editor. like fingers, fingers crossed. Yeah. Unfortunately

publishing is like, yeah, like you'll hear about it in two years. Yeah. It's terrible. Yeah. But thank you. Yeah. Yeah. And thanks. Well, thanks for the work you're doing as well because I listened to your, Barbie episode and

now I know yeah it's it's an eternity yeah it's an eternity ⁓ okay but we'll have you on before that so we can continue talking about this absolutely yeah and I definitely am going to get a copy

You're articulating so many things so well. So yeah.

Thank you, I'm so glad that that's

the whole idea, that's the point. I'm just one person on this end trying to do a little something to help, know, and yeah, yeah, but I've had the opportunity to meet wonderful people like yourself and it's just enriched my life and informed me and made me just a better person. And so I'm thankful to you for being a part of that journey for me. So I'll be in touch and yeah, just stay on.

That's all we can do, right? Yeah.

Cool.

I'll talk to you soon. Have a wonderful day and thank you again.

Yeah.

Thank you.