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00:00:48 Judi Brownell from Cornell University

00:01:07 Here are the components of Brownell’s model: H: Hearing

00:03:01 U: Understanding

00:05:01 R: Remembering

00:06:48 I: Interpreting

00:08:33 E: Evaluating

00:10:57 R: Responding

00:15:29 Don’t Be a Conversational Narcissist!

00:17:52 Reframe the Way You Understand the Purpose of Conversation

00:18:52 Don’t Jump Ahead

00:20:04 Avoid Advice

00:21:12 Stop Centering Yourself

00:23:06 Watch Out for Passive Conversational Narcissism, too

00:23:56 What If They’re the Conversational Narcissist?

00:26:37 The HURIER method asks us to Hear, Understand, Remember, Interpret, Evaluate, and Respond, in that order.

00:26:53 Avoid being a conversational narcissist, who is someone who uses conversation to gain attention for themselves, rather than connect with others, share, or learn.

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• Good listening is a collection of different skills: hearing, understanding, interpreting, and responding. The HURIER method asks us to Hear, Understand, Remember, Interpret, Evaluate, and Respond, in that order. Remember that listening is active and includes both verbal and nonverbal material.

• Avoid being a conversational narcissist, who is someone who uses conversation to gain attention for themselves, rather than connect with others, share, or learn. Reframe the way you understand the purpose of conversation and understand that it’s not about you or your ego. Avoid giving advice, interrupting (or thinking about what you want to say), or centering yourself in the dialogue. Similarly, don’t be afraid to disengage when you encounter a conversational narcissist.

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Even when it does come to auditory sensation, there is a lot to listen for beyond the basic facts of the message. You can hear the tone, pace, pitch, volume, and articulation of the voice. You can hear the accent, the rate and depth of breath, and the little clues that hint at certain emotions. To really hear someone, make sure that it’s the only thing you’re doing. Don’t multitask or daydream about what you’ll say once they stop talking. Don’t get distracted by devices or passersby. Just sit in the person’s presence and be receptive to what they’re sharing, without needing to hurry or rush them through to a conclusion. If you really can’t give them your full attention, there’s nothing wrong with postponing the conversation until a time when you can.

Example: You’re catching up with an old-school friend you haven’t seen in ten years. You sit somewhere quiet and give him your absolute full attention, noticing the subtly different accent he now has, the slight tiredness in his voice, and the fact that he’s speaking quite slowly. He is telling you a story about a new promotion at work, and you notice his voice speeds up and gets a little formal as he does so. U: Understanding Naturally, you want to comprehend the meaning of what you’re told once you carefully receive and absorb it. Making sense of what you’re told is a process that starts with them and ends with you as you put together the pieces of information they’ve shared. Once a message leaves its sender and floats across the void in order to reach the listener, there are countless ways for things to be lost or distorted. One of the worst things you can do as a listener is to assume you have heard and understood when you haven’t. Consider how a certain word or phrase may mean slightly different things to them than they do to you because of cultural or generational differences.

Consider how differently they may use certain imagery, cultural references, or even what they consider to be courteous and good-mannered. Luckily, this is precisely what communication is for—to close these gaps and dissolve these potential misunderstandings. Check in with the other person to see whether the version of their message you’ve received is something they recognize. If you’re not clear on something, ask for clarification. Paraphrase what you’ve been told, saying, “Have I got that right?" Take your time and ask questions rather than assume you know certain details, and importantly, don’t interrupt people as they speak—you might miss out on crucial information. Example: He’s summarizing the last ten years of his work for his company, and you’re missing some of the details since you’re not familiar with his industry. You ask him at one point, “So you say you’re a consultant now but actually you’re still technically employed by them, right?"

You’re not only trying to understand what this word “consultant” means to him linguistically but also emotionally. R: Remembering It is a mistake to think of listening as “passive." As you listen, you are holding all the details of what you’re told and actively assembling them as you go, collaboratively creating the meaning with the other person. To do this, you need to be able to recall what you’ve been told earlier. That may mean details from five minutes ago, or it can mean something you were told last year. Not only does effective listening require you to remember details, it requires that you put these details together. If you think, “But my memory is terrible,” then don’t worry—most problems with remembering during conversations are actually not about memory but about attention. You usually “forget” something not because your memory is bad, but because you weren’t properly attending to the stimulus in the first place.

To improve your memory, simply slow down, pay close attention, and actively link everything you’re told with everything you’ve already been told right there in the moment. You can then use this to inspire further questions or requests for clarification. Example: He starts talking about his family, and you think: Hang on, he’s telling me now about his sister ... but which sister was that? So you say, “That’s so interesting! I remember you mentioned your sister when we spoke on the phone last week. Is this the same sister?" He says, “Oh, no, this is my younger sister." You make a mental note that he has (at least!)

two sisters. This little interlude will fill in any of your own memory gaps and make it appear that you are an attentive, careful listener. I: Interpreting The first three letters explain how you receive information and consciously connect it with other information, and in so doing deepen your comprehension of what it all means. From that point, naturally, you can’t help but interpret the message. It’s as though we zoom out a little and look at everything around the message—the context, the speaker (their biases, goals, expectations, etc.), the additional nonverbal information being shared, any hidden subtext, and so on. These things can add depth and richness to a message, or they can even change a message completely into something else. Note everything you can observe about what the person in front of you is communicating: •Their nonverbal cues such as body language, voice characteristics, expression, and so on •The underlying emotional meaning behind their words •The context of the conversation and why it is happening •How the other person may be responding to you •The speaker’s personality, biases, blind spots, and style of expression •Cultural, generational, gender, or even socioeconomic factors Example: You notice an overwhelming emotion of stress and exhaustion in your old school friend, and how his new professional demands and commitments seem to have changed the way he speaks. You note how all of this comes together with a somewhat shy but intense personality, and you observe his style of dress—very somber and businesslike but quite expensive clothing.

E: Evaluating Once you’ve gathered all of this data together, the next step is obviously to decide what to do with it. Crucially, this comes at the end, not the beginning, so you can make sure you’re in possession of the entire message before coming to any conclusions. Now, evaluating does not mean you decide whether you believe the person, whether you like them or what they’re saying, or whether you agree. This is not a question of judgment but rather appraisal. Here we need to be on guard against our own assumptions and prejudices. Too many of us are too quick to jump into this stage before we’ve given the other person the chance to express their full message, or ourselves the chance to properly and thoughtfully digest it. Keep reminding yourself that there is no rush, and you don’t even have to come to an evaluation if you don’t yet feel you’re ready. Example: You start to conclude that your friend’s work and occupational status has become a big part of his identity.

Though he is very casually telling you about his life, and idly complaining about being overworked, you wonder if part of him relishes the label of “workaholic” and if in some subtle way he is showing off. This, however, is a temporary theory, and you don’t jump to conclusions just yet. What’s more, you acknowledge that much of this interpretation may come from your own values around work and money, your history with this friend in school, and the fact that you used to be a little competitive back then ... Keep an open mind. Listen to what they’re saying, not what you might think they’re saying or what you wish they were saying. This is the stage where a little neutral judgment and objectivity can go a long way. You don’t have to be emotionless, just be clear about what it emotion and what is logic. Recognize your ideas as separate from theirs, and identify any influence from biases, beliefs and values—whether theirs or your own.

Finally, make a clear distinction between the speaker and the message they’re sharing. Listening means hearing the message—not jumping to conclusions that fit in line with our assumptions about who the person is or should be. R: Responding The very last step is to respond. Yet, how many of us jump in to respond before the other person has even finished speaking? We skip right over the understanding, the remembering, the interpreting, and so on, and leap in to share our message. The usual result is something that resembles less a conversation and more a competition. Importantly, you are responding—i.e., what you say is in direct reaction to what they have said. It is an answer, something that connects to their contribution and expands it, continues it, even contradicts it sometimes, but still speaks to it in some way.

Have you ever talked to someone who patiently waited for you to stop, then proceeded to talk about something completely different? Chances are you not only felt they weren’t listening, you probably felt invalidated or a little insulted, too. Good dialogues are co-created—they are not simply two people monologuing beside one another. If during the course of the other person’s speaking, you watch as your chance to share a particular idea has come and gone, do not try to force the conversation to backtrack so you can make your point. Let it go and engage with the conversation where it stands. When you “rewind” conversations this way, you are essentially telling the other person that all of their contribution beyond that point was unnecessary and unwanted—don’t be surprised if they quickly lose interest after that! Your response should demonstrate that you have gone through the HURIER acronym and have not only understood but processed what you’ve been told. Reflect on their message and show them what that idea looks like in your world after you’ve passed it over your own perspective and values.

In a way, it’s this final step that proves to the other person how thorough your listening has been. This is because you actively prove that you have taken on board what they’ve said and engaged with it. Example: You mull over the whole encounter and everything your friend has said, and as a result of all that processing, you say, “Well, you’ve clearly got a lot on your plate right now! I have to admit that these days I’m a little allergic to overtime myself and haven’t done the daily grind for a long time. I think I just want to live a little more slowly, you know? Do you think you’ll cut back at some point? Or are you enjoying the hustle and bustle?" This is a thoughtful response that shows that you’ve heard, understood, and processed what you’ve been told, and you also share some of your own perspective.

It isn’t judgmental, but curious and collaborative. You may choose to respond in a million different ways, depending on the message and what your goals are. You may ask questions, show empathy, do a chunking up/concluding statement to signal the end of the talk, or dive in deeper to show that you’re interested in continuing. Be aware that expounding on your opinion is seldom something that others appreciate or ask for. Social media platforms like YouTube encourage a kind of illusory conversation that is really just an isolated person talking into a screen, with no chance for the listener to respond or steer the conversation. Consequently, people today lack certain listening skills and may mistakenly think that a good conversation is one in which each person gets an opportunity to opine and make a little speech. They may unwittingly focus on how to accurately express themselves and forget to make space for the other person’s expression. Using the HURIER acronym, however, reminds you of the relative importance of different components of a conversation.

Being self-absorbed and trying to make everything about you, it seems, is actually pretty common. But it also means that you are missing out on opportunities to have more genuine, more informative, more satisfying conversations with people (not to mention coming across as a bore!). Conversational narcissism can be understood as a kind of default that we all fall into when we fail to make efforts to truly listen. Sadly, conversational narcissism tends to reproduce itself—a big trigger for behaving this way is often the sense that we are not being listened to, because the other person is too busy with themselves to pay us attention. Yet, the more we try to make the conversation about us, the more the other person feels the same way and responds by trying to edge their way into the limelight. Ultimately connection is lost and the conversation becomes a battleground or dissolves entirely. The first step is to fully own your part of the conversational contract. You cannot do anything about other people’s behavior, but you can go a long way to model genuine listening and create a frame of respect and collaboration rather than self-absorption.

Reframe the Way You Understand the Purpose of Conversation Why do people talk at all? Is it to prove how great they are, to show off, to elicit praise and flattery? Is it to show how much you know or have someone agree with you and confirm your views? While most of us want to say no, be on guard for when you might be speaking within this frame. Constantly remind yourself that the overarching purpose of any communication is to connect. A good conversation is not something you fight over with the other person to win, and it’s not something you begrudgingly share with them, anxiously waiting for your turn so you can snatch attention back from them. Rather, it’s like a dance you do together, something you co-create. If you find that your conversation partner is seeming to get in the way somehow, this is a sign you’re doing something wrong!

It should never be a competition. Don’t Jump Ahead We have all had the experience of quietly thinking to ourselves what we plan to say the moment the person in front of us shuts up. Our eyes may even glaze over as we stop listening to them and instead think about the fantastic argument we’re going to make once they’re done with whatever it is they’re blabbing on about ... It’s a bad habit! As much as you can, try to stay present with what the person is saying. Don’t rush ahead to try to imagine what they are going to say next, and likewise don’t start thinking of your own response. Remember the HURIER model and tell yourself that you can respond after you’ve really listened, understood, and processed the message. Another good idea: remind yourself that you actually don’t have to respond at all.

It is not a requirement for you to weigh in or for you to hurry to get your equal share of airtime. Confident, secure speakers don’t need to dominate the conversation, because they prioritize the flow and are enjoying the dialogue—who exactly is speaking is not so relevant. Avoid Advice As a general rule, never give unsolicited advice—and be careful even if it is solicited. Ask yourself, when was the last time you desperately wanted to hear what someone else thought you should do? It’s not often, right? But you probably do find yourself wanting to be heard, respected, and empathized with on a fairly regular basis. Commit to offering the same thing to others. The truth is that most people give advice because they like the way it makes them feel: wise and powerful.

Most people dislike receiving unsolicited advice precisely because they can sense this unconscious motivation. Rather than getting enamored with your own vision of what the other person should do or what their situation means, become curious about how they see it, what they value, and what they are trying to accomplish. If you catch yourself wanting to say, “Well, I think you should ... ” try asking a question instead. Stop Centering Yourself When you are being a conversational narcissist, it is as though you are moving through the conversation with a certain thought hovering in your awareness: “What has this got to do with me? What can I get out of this? How can I make sure this road is leading back to me somehow?" So they may say something about scuba diving, and you immediately think, “What has scuba diving got to do with me? I know—I did a scuba diving course when I was a teenager, and I have a pretty funny anecdote about a stingray.

When they’re done talking, I’m going to share my anecdote." Or maybe they say that they’ve gained five pounds over Christmas and are feeling a little bad about themselves, and you immediately think, “Well, that’s sad and all but what can I get out of it? I’m pretty good at stuff like this. I know all about nutrition and fitness. As soon as they stop talking, I’m going to share my brilliant diet advice and then they’ll think I’m clever." Granted, few people literally think in such selfish terms, but the effect of continually centering yourself is the same regardless. Instead of talking about the other person, or about the topic in general, you are constantly making the focus of the conversation yourself. This is tricky because everyone wants to talk about themselves to some degree ... but do it too much and people will tire of you and find you difficult to connect with.

Imagine your attention and focus is a beam of light. Constantly shine it away from you and onto the topic or the other person. The frame is not “what about me?" but “this idea is interesting, what’s this?” or “hey, tell me more about you." Watch Out for Passive Conversational Narcissism, too Our description so far has been quite over the top, but you can dominate conversations in subtler, more passive ways. If someone keeps sharing something with you, but you fail to ask follow-up questions, it’s like you’re being a tossed a ball that you repeatedly let fall to the ground. The “game” never goes anywhere. Sometimes people signal their lack of interest in someone else by simply not giving any supportive responses, not asking any questions, or even not acknowledging that they’ve heard the message.

This can be a conscious or unconscious way of controlling the conversation, since eventually the other person will just stop talking ... and then you can jump in and have the limelight again! What If They’re the Conversational Narcissist? Sadly, chances are they will be, at least some of the time. You might be wondering if it’s worth going to the effort of asking questions, listening empathically, and de-centering yourself if the other person will only grab the opportunity to hog the conversation. This can be tricky to deal with. Always start by giving others the benefit of the doubt and ask them about themselves before sharing details about you. If they simply never ask, well, you can politely disengage and make sure you’re not wasting more time than you strictly have to. You never have to suffer in silence while being talked at, and you shouldn’t feel bad for wanting to disengage from a boring, one-sided “conversation."

Try as much as you’re willing to gently steer them onto something else, but if they’re not budging, cut your losses and bail! Sometimes people are having a selfish day, and sometimes they’re just plain old selfish. Be polite but end it. Whatever you do, don’t get embroiled in a fight for attention—you can never convince a conversational narcissist to care about you, and you can certainly never beat them at their own game. Summary: •Good listening is a collection of different skills: hearing, understanding, interpreting, and responding. The HURIER method asks us to Hear, Understand, Remember, Interpret, Evaluate, and Respond, in that order. Remember that listening is active and includes both verbal and nonverbal material. •Avoid being a conversational narcissist, who is someone who uses conversation to gain attention for themselves, rather than connect with others, share, or learn.

Reframe the way you understand the purpose of conversation and understand that it’s not about you or your ego. Avoid giving advice, interrupting (or thinking about what you want to say), or centering yourself in the dialogue. Similarly, don’t be afraid to disengage when you encounter a conversational narcissist. Don't forget to check out the show notes for links to Patrick King's book and his website at bit.ly slash pkconsulting and if you have any questions or communication conundrums you'd like to have tackled, let us know. Let's keep this conversation going.