Transcripts
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Amy Martin:Welcome to Threshold. I'm Amy Martin, and I
Amy Martin:want to start out here by returning to my stainless steel
Amy Martin:cook pot. Say hello, cook pot. I introduced you to it a couple of
Amy Martin:episodes ago at the start of this three part exploration of
Amy Martin:how, or if we can do industry differently, using the steel
Amy Martin:industry as a case study. It's just an ordinary, medium sized
Amy Martin:pot, simple, easy to clean. I use it all the time. I really
Amy Martin:like this pot. Chances are good that you also have a stainless
Amy Martin:steel pot in your kitchen. In fact, I challenge you to try to
Amy Martin:count the number of steel items you use in one day or even one
Amy Martin:hour. Your spoon, your car, steel is everywhere. It's one of
Amy Martin:the most versatile, durable materials in the world, and it
Amy Martin:makes our lives better in countless ways. But
Amy Martin:unfortunately, it's also making the climate problem much worse.
Amy Martin:And that's because the way we're making steel hasn't been cutting
Amy Martin:edge since 1709. It's an antiquated process that runs on
Amy Martin:coal. For every ton of new steel produced, more than 1.8 tons of
Amy Martin:carbon dioxide are released. Meaning, if we could collect all
Amy Martin:of the carbon dioxide molecules emitted while making my cook pot
Amy Martin:and weigh them, they would be almost twice as heavy as the pot
Amy Martin:itself. This sounds like a problem. Okay, it is a problem,
Amy Martin:but it's also an opportunity, because if we could decarbonize
Amy Martin:this one industry, it would knock about 10% off of annual
Amy Martin:global CO2 emissions. That is huge. Imagine looking around at
Amy Martin:all of those steel items you used today knowing that they
Amy Martin:were made without fossil fuels. And here's the kicker, you don't
Amy Martin:have to just imagine it. It's possible. In fact, it's
Amy Martin:happening. A group of companies in northern Sweden is pioneering
Amy Martin:a new way to produce steel with no carbon emissions. Their goal
Amy Martin:is to revolutionize the iron and steel industry, and if they're
Amy Martin:successful, it really could be the start of the kind of
Amy Martin:transformational systems change we urgently need. So, I went to
Amy Martin:go see this new process for myself with two big questions,
Amy Martin:how does it work, and how can we steal it from them? See what I
Amy Martin:did there. "Steal it" from them.
Anders Linderg:The world needs steel, and we can deliver it in
Anders Linderg:a climate friendly way.
Lina Nystrom:It sounds like the future, like spare the
Lina Nystrom:environment. And for the next generation.
Unknown:There's a place for everything, but the environment
Unknown:should be considered throughout that development.
Mikael Norlander:I think, if you haven't started by now, to
Mikael Norlander:look at how you're gonna make your transition as a company,
Mikael Norlander:you're about to be in trouble.
Amy Martin:In this episode, we're going to explore two sides
Amy Martin:of this potential steel industry revolution, the technical
Amy Martin:process involved and the cultural context that it's
Amy Martin:emerging out of. And we're going to start with the technical
Amy Martin:stuff. What is this new process and how does it actually work?
Amy Martin:I'm driving through Lulea, Sweden, a city of around 78,000
Amy Martin:people located just 70 miles below the Arctic Circle. Lulea
Amy Martin:is the county seat of Sweden's northernmost county, Norbotten,
Amy Martin:a huge area that's historically been associated with mountains,
Amy Martin:reindeer and endless forests of birch and pine. But Norbotten
Amy Martin:also has huge deposits of the iron needed to make steel, and
Amy Martin:here in Lulea, the Swedish Steel Corporation, or SSAB, is one of
Amy Martin:the largest employers.
Amy Martin:I'm out here kind of in the industrial edge, and there's
Amy Martin:factories to the right, and there's a big pipeline going
Amy Martin:over my head.
Amy Martin:I arrive at the main office and head toward the gate where I
Amy Martin:meet my three guides for the day.
Nils Edberg:Yeah, I'm Nils Edberg, I'm working as a
Nils Edberg:tactical expert on SSAB.
Asa Backlin:What's up? Asa Backlin, I work with
Asa Backlin:communications at HYBRIT.
Mikael Norlander:Mikael Norlander from Vattenfall and I
Mikael Norlander:work with the HYBRIT projects and the colonization of industry
Mikael Norlander:in general.
Amy Martin:Those names, again, are Nils, Asa, and Mikael. And
Amy Martin:in just a few minutes, Asa and Mikael are going to take me to
Amy Martin:see the new HYBRIT pilot plant. That stands for Hydrogen
Amy Martin:Breakthrough Iron Making Technology, and it really is a
Amy Martin:potential breakthrough. They're trying to produce steel with no
Amy Martin:carbon emissions. They call it fossil-free steel. But before we
Amy Martin:go there, I wanted to see the old process of making steel.
Amy Martin:It's happening right in front of us as we walk through the gate
Amy Martin:in a structure so big and industrial looking, it's almost
Amy Martin:like a caricature of itself, like something out of a Dr.
Amy Martin:Seuss book with oversized tubes and shoots and a maze of
Amy Martin:exterior stairs and walkways blackened with soot. Nils Edberg
Amy Martin:knows this behemoth inside and out.
Nils Edberg:Yeah, the big thing we have behind us here is the
Nils Edberg:blast furnace. And in the blast furnace, we produce liquid hot
Nils Edberg:metal that's used for making steel out of iron ore.
Amy Martin:So if you're if you're digging iron ore out of
Amy Martin:the ground, before you can do anything with it, it has to come
Amy Martin:through something like this.
Nils Edberg:Yes.
Amy Martin:The purpose of this blast furnace is separating iron
Amy Martin:from the rocks, or ore, it's found in. It's essentially a
Amy Martin:huge oven that gets hot enough to trigger a chemical reaction
Amy Martin:that releases the iron from the rock. So iron ore goes in at the
Amy Martin:top and a purer form of iron, known as pig iron comes out of
Amy Martin:the bottom as a liquid. The pig iron later gets mixed with other
Amy Martin:metals, like aluminum or tin to make steel.
Nils Edberg:Do you want to see the liquid?
Amy Martin:I do very much.
Amy Martin:Nils leads us closer to the action.
Amy Martin:So we're walking towards the beast. There's like some steamy
Amy Martin:stuff coming off.
Nils Edberg:And there you see, that's where the liquid is
Nils Edberg:running down into another of those railway cores.
Amy Martin:Oh, wow. Wow. Okay, so that streak of really bright
Amy Martin:stuff...
Nils Edberg:That's 1500 degree pig iron.
Amy Martin:Okay.
Amy Martin:Watching a river of thick, red, hot liquid metal pouring out of
Amy Martin:an enormous black tower is pretty cool. What's less cool
Amy Martin:are all the carbon emissions being produced in this process,
Amy Martin:because the key ingredient in the chemical reaction here is
Amy Martin:coal. The carbon in the coal bonds with the oxygen in the
Amy Martin:iron ore. And when you put carbon and oxygen together, you
Amy Martin:get CO2, carbon dioxide and a rapidly warming world.
Amy Martin:Just to get to the heart of the matter here the in relation to
Amy Martin:the HYBRIT project, this whole thing is running on one of the
Amy Martin:dirtiest and least efficient fossil fuels that we have, coal.
Nils Edberg:Well, yeah, you can, you can say that it's
Nils Edberg:dirty. This is one of the most efficient blast furnaces around,
Nils Edberg:I can tell you.
Amy Martin:As far as blast furnaces, it's good one.
Nils Edberg:Yeah.
Amy Martin:But it's still a blast furnace.
Nils Edberg:The main part of steel produced today is produced
Nils Edberg:in the blast furnace route, and this is one of the best blast
Nils Edberg:furnace but you're right. We have to use coal in this process
Nils Edberg:and emit a lot of carbon dioxide from from this process, and
Nils Edberg:that's what we want to get rid of.
Amy Martin:SSAB is one of three companies that have come
Amy Martin:together here to figure out how to make iron and steel without
Amy Martin:carbon emissions. And if they're successful, blast furnaces like
Amy Martin:this one will become museum pieces, really big museum
Amy Martin:We say goodbye to Nils and then get into our cars to go see the
Amy Martin:pieces.
Amy Martin:new HYBRIT plant.
Amy Martin:Driving behind Asa's Volvo.
Amy Martin:Driving through the steelworks. I start to get a sense of how
Amy Martin:much coal it really takes to run a blast furnace.
Amy Martin:Here I'm driving by machines moving coal of different
Amy Martin:consistencies around, big chunks, little chunks,
Amy Martin:pulverized, and there's another big, tall factory off in the
Amy Martin:distance.
Amy Martin:As Nils Edberg said, SSAB's blast furnaces are more
Amy Martin:efficient than most, but there's simply no climate friendly way
Amy Martin:to make steel using coal. According to the company's
Amy Martin:website, SSAB is responsible for 10% of Sweden's CO2 emissions.
Amy Martin:They're the country's largest single emitter, but in a few
Amy Martin:years, all of these piles of coal I'm looking at might be
Amy Martin:gone because SSAB is trying to create a new process that runs
Amy Martin:on a completely different fuel: hydrogen. We come around a bend,
Amy Martin:and the hybrid plant comes into view.
Amy Martin:HYBRIT fossil-free steel. It says in English.
Amy Martin:It's a constellation of tall, silvery rectangles, clearly the
Amy Martin:shiny new kid on an old coal fired block.
Asa Backlin:Here's for you. You need to take shoes and put on a
Asa Backlin:vest.
Amy Martin:Asa Backlin does a lot of the communications work
Amy Martin:for the HYBRIT project. She gives me a safety vest and a
Amy Martin:hard hat to wear. We can't go inside the plant. This was the
Amy Martin:spring of 2021, and covid restrictions were in place, but
Amy Martin:as we walk around it, Mikael Nordlander explains how it
Amy Martin:works. Mikael works for Sweden's state-owned energy company,
Amy Martin:called Vattenfall. They're one of three partners on the HYBRIT
Amy Martin:project.
Mikael Norlander:The 50 meter tall building in the back,
Mikael Norlander:that's where we mix hydrogen with iron ore to make iron.
Amy Martin:Mikael says just like in a blast furnace, the
Amy Martin:purpose of the HYBRIT plant is to get the iron to separate from
Amy Martin:the iron ore. The thing that's holding them together is oxygen.
Mikael Norlander:The iron and the oxygen is stuck together
Mikael Norlander:real hard. So you need loads of energy to break that, and you
Mikael Norlander:basically need to make the oxygen want to jump over to
Mikael Norlander:something else. And in the case of the blast furnace, you make
Mikael Norlander:the oxygen jump over coal or carbon and then it forms carbon
Mikael Norlander:dioxide. And in this case, when we have hydrogen, the oxygen
Mikael Norlander:jumps over to the hydrogen and forms H2O, also water. So you
Mikael Norlander:eliminate the very root cause of the emissions of the process by
Mikael Norlander:doing it this way.
Amy Martin:For those of us who haven't thought much about
Amy Martin:chemistry since high school, let me repeat what Mikael just said.
Amy Martin:In a blast furnace, you get the oxygen to separate from the iron
Amy Martin:by using carbon in the form of coal. Carbon plus oxygen leads
Amy Martin:to CO2, carbon dioxide, thus the climate crisis. But in the
Amy Martin:HYBRIT plant, the carbon is replaced with hydrogen, and
Amy Martin:hydrogen plus oxygen leads to H2O: water. That's the byproduct
Amy Martin:of making steel in this new way.
Amy Martin:The hydrogen is basically taking the place of what the coal was
Amy Martin:doing.
Mikael Norlander:Yeah, that's the kind of glue that rips out
Mikael Norlander:the oxygen out of the iron ore.
Amy Martin:If all of the steel made in the world today switched
Amy Martin:to a carbon free process like this one, it would be the
Amy Martin:equivalent of India and Japan, both among the world's top 10
Amy Martin:emitters, going to net zero and then staying there. But the rub
Amy Martin:here is that there's basically no free hydrogen to be found on
Amy Martin:Earth. It's all bound up with other elements. Hydrogen is the
Amy Martin:smallest atom on the periodic table. It's the lightest of
Amy Martin:gasses, so light that unless it's bound to some other
Amy Martin:element, it will float up, escape the atmosphere and
Amy Martin:disappear into space. So if you want to get some pure hydrogen,
Amy Martin:which is what they need here at the HYBRIT plant, you have to
Amy Martin:extract it from something else, like water.
Mikael Norlander:You need energy to break the bond of
Mikael Norlander:water into hydrogen and oxygen. That's what we're doing also in
Mikael Norlander:this building, using a technology called electrolysis,
Mikael Norlander:which is basically a machine where you put in water, and then
Mikael Norlander:you put in electricity, and then you split the water into
Mikael Norlander:hydrogen and oxygen, and then you keep the hydrogen for this
Mikael Norlander:reaction.
Amy Martin:So step one, separate hydrogen from water
Amy Martin:using electrolysis. Step two, use that hydrogen to pull the
Amy Martin:oxygen out of iron ore. You end up with a tank full of water and
Amy Martin:a bunch of iron. No carbon emissions, voila. But if it's so
Amy Martin:easy to do this, why isn't it happening all over the world?
Amy Martin:The answer, of course, is that it's not super easy in some
Amy Martin:important ways. One of the biggest obstacles is energy. You
Amy Martin:need a whole lot of it to do electrolysis.
Mikael Norlander:So of course, this process wouldn't really
Mikael Norlander:make sense if you use fossil fuels to make the electricity to
Mikael Norlander:make the electrolysis. But if you have fossil-free electricity
Mikael Norlander:going into the making of hydrogen, then it makes sense,
Mikael Norlander:and this is exactly what we have here.
Amy Martin:Using hydrogen in industrial processes isn't new.
Amy Martin:It's been used to make fertilizers and chemicals for
Amy Martin:many years, but almost all of that hydrogen is produced with
Amy Martin:fossil fuels. In fact, many major oil companies are
Amy Martin:promoting the use of so called Blue hydrogen, which is produced
Amy Martin:using methane gas. They're touting it as a win for the
Amy Martin:climate, but in reality, the carbon emissions involved in
Amy Martin:this process are still very high. But that's not what's
Amy Martin:happening here in Sweden, the energy sector is already very
Amy Martin:decarbonized. Here. The bulk of the electricity in the country
Amy Martin:is generated using hydropower, followed by nuclear, wind and
Amy Martin:biofuels. So the hydrogen produced here is known as green
Amy Martin:hydrogen, meaning it's essentially carbon-free.
Mikael Norlander:So the river behind us, upstream of that
Mikael Norlander:river, we have 4000 megawatts of hydropower plants, which is a
Mikael Norlander:lot.
Amy Martin:Fossil-free electricity is a huge part of
Amy Martin:what's making this project work. If you've listened to our whole
Amy Martin:season, you might be picking up on a theme here. It's what Chris
Amy Martin:Clack, Jim Williams, Leah Stokes, and other guests have
said:once you have large quantities of renewable energy
said:to work with, then you can start making true systems change. Then
said:it becomes possible to even imagine projects like this,
said:where a lot of energy is used to make hydrogen, which can then be
said:used as a replacement for coal. Natural gas, composed mostly of
said:methane, can also be used instead of coal to make iron,
said:and that results in lower emissions. But Mikael says
said:they're not aiming for lower CO2. They're aiming for zero.
Unknown:What we're doing in this concept is basically we're
Unknown:putting together pieces of of technology and building a new
Unknown:system. So how to make hydrogen from electricity that has been
Unknown:known for 100 years, but this is the first time we put it
Unknown:together in a way that completely eliminates the use of
Unknown:coal in the process.
Amy Martin:Hearing this got me excited, because it reminded me
Amy Martin:of what we learned about how the Industrial Revolution took off.
Amy Martin:That transformation was also sparked by people who made
Amy Martin:tweaks to existing technologies and experimented with putting
Amy Martin:systems together in innovative new ways. Climate change
Amy Martin:solutions aren't going to descend from heaven fully
Amy Martin:formed. They're going to emerge out of processes full of trial
Amy Martin:and error, surprises and serendipity, and that's what
Amy Martin:this first HYBRIT plant in Lulea is actually for. It's a small
Amy Martin:pilot plant created for the express purpose of learning.
Mikael Norlander:I mean, this plant will teach us how to set
Mikael Norlander:up a more commercial process, which we're planning to do. This
Mikael Norlander:is the place where we learn how to do it.
Amy Martin:Three companies came together to form HYBRIT: SSAB,
Amy Martin:the steel-making company, Vattenfall, the energy company,
Amy Martin:and LKAB, an iron-mining company. They began construction
Amy Martin:in 2018 with a plan to spend $140 million just on the pilot
Amy Martin:phase. And one of my biggest questions is, why? Why are these
Amy Martin:three companies pouring money, effort and time into a new,
Amy Martin:untested idea like this? Why take the risk?
Mikael Norlander:I think, if you haven't started by now to
Mikael Norlander:look at how you're gonna make your transition as a company
Mikael Norlander:that causes lots of CO2 emissions, you're about to be in
Mikael Norlander:trouble.
Amy Martin:Mikael says he thinks the real risk is actually
Amy Martin:not taking action, not trying to lead the decarbonization
Amy Martin:process. He says it's clear to all of the partners that the
Amy Martin:steel industry can either choose to change or be forced to
Amy Martin:change, and they decided it was in their interest to be
Amy Martin:proactive. The Swedish steel industry is pretty small in a
Amy Martin:global context, and they're hoping fossil free steel could
Amy Martin:be their competitive advantage.
Mikael Norlander:All the way from the start, there has been a
Mikael Norlander:real sense of opportunity in this that, whoa, we have lots of
Mikael Norlander:good resources. We have clean energy, which is affordable, and
Mikael Norlander:if we can reinvent this process, we will have something that is
Mikael Norlander:clearly unique, which people all over the globe wants, and we're
Mikael Norlander:a tiny player. We're in hard competition with companies all
Mikael Norlander:over the world, and the only thing to have a game is to take
Mikael Norlander:on some pain in doing this transition, I think.
Amy Martin:Could any one of these companies have done it on
Amy Martin:their own?
Mikael Norlander:No, I don't think so.
Amy Martin:Why not?
Mikael Norlander:When you cooperate and you mix those
Mikael Norlander:company cultures, those competences, those heritage,
Mikael Norlander:something new, I mean, the sum is bigger than the parts, and I
Mikael Norlander:think that is crucial for this to make happen. Of course, the
Mikael Norlander:important piece is the making of the iron, but it's just a part
Mikael Norlander:of an entire system. We're building a new system. So I
Mikael Norlander:mean, if we would have been sitting in separate rooms and
Mikael Norlander:doing this, it wouldn't simply work.
Amy Martin:Cooperation. This is another recurring theme for this
Amy Martin:season. It seems like no matter where I start, I keep landing on
Amy Martin:it. Mikael says these three companies essentially had to
Amy Martin:collaborate because they needed each other in order to
Amy Martin:synchronize their investments and activities and to spread out
Amy Martin:the risks involved. And he says they also needed each other to
Amy Martin:be able to think really big, to go beyond reducing emissions
Amy Martin:here and there around the margins and focus on truly
Amy Martin:transforming how iron and steel are made, all the way from the
Amy Martin:mine to the finished product.
Mikael Norlander:That I think is really the way to go, in
Mikael Norlander:order to do as good an efficient system as possible.
Amy Martin:I think some people would hear, three big companies
Amy Martin:working together, that sounds instead of like cooperation,
Amy Martin:that sounds like a nightmare of, you know, competition, like you
Amy Martin:were talking about blending cultures that maybe don't blend,
Amy Martin:people getting, you know, territorial. And was there some
Amy Martin:of that kind of thing to work through, or is there still?
Unknown:It has been, it still is, and it will probably in the
Unknown:future. I mean, cooperation like this is not easy. We're trying
Unknown:to do something really disruptive and trying to do it
Unknown:really fast, and what we need to do is basically to cooperate in
Unknown:a way that we act like a small startup, but at the same time
Unknown:use the big resources of being a big company, and the governance
Unknown:challenge of that is quite immense, to be honest. It is, it
Unknown:is actually sometimes trickier than the technology part, I
Unknown:would say.
Amy Martin:I would imagine, I mean, because you can, you can
Amy Martin:make machines do what you want them to, but people are much
Amy Martin:less obedient.
Mikael Norlander:Yeah, and creating that culture, which is
Mikael Norlander:a mix of force of big companies and the agility of small
Mikael Norlander:companies that that takes some contemplation.
Amy Martin:It strikes me that this is, in a way, sort of an
Amy Martin:analogy for the entire problem of climate change, that we have
Amy Martin:to be able to think with much more agility, but with massive
Amy Martin:resources. You're nodding.
Mikael Norlander:Yeah.
Amy Martin:Take a bold idea, develop it collaboratively, and
Amy Martin:then infuse it with the resources and power of existing
Amy Martin:institutions. That's what we need to do in all kinds of
Amy Martin:contexts in order to solve the climate crisis. And like Mikael
Amy Martin:said, it's not easy, but this project demonstrates that it's
Amy Martin:possible. In August 2021, just a few months after I visited
Amy Martin:HYBRIT, they produced the world's first fossil free steel
Amy Martin:here and delivered it to another Swedish company, Volvo, which
Amy Martin:used it to produce the first vehicle made of fossil free
Amy Martin:steel. It's a huge achievement, and there's more to come. A new,
Amy Martin:bigger hybrid plant is now going up in another northern Swedish
Amy Martin:town called Gällivare, and that's where we're headed after
Amy Martin:the break.
Erika Janik:Hey everybody, this is Erika Janik, Threshold's
Erika Janik:Managing Editor. Did you know that we have a Threshold
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Erika Janik:in the show notes or on our website, thresholdpodcast.org.
Amy Martin:What do you think defines Norrboten as a region?
Amy Martin:What are the defining characteristics?
Marita Johansson:I think the people here, they are strong.
Marita Johansson:They are used to have ups and downs. It comes times in, bad
Marita Johansson:times, good times. So the people, they are used and they
Marita Johansson:are open minded. If you have a work, then you are welcome.
Marita Johansson:Everyone must work, then you are like one of us.
Amy Martin:Welcome back to Threshold. I'm Amy Martin, and
Amy Martin:I'm talking with Marita Johansson. She owns a hostel in
Amy Martin:Gällivare, a city of around 17,000 people, just north of the
Amy Martin:Arctic Circle that's home to one of the biggest iron mines in
Amy Martin:Europe. Now that we've got a basic understanding of the
Amy Martin:technical side of fossil-free steel, I want to turn our
Amy Martin:attention to the human side. How ordinary people here in northern
Amy Martin:Sweden are being affected by this movement toward a new,
Amy Martin:greener version of industry, and how they're helping to bring
Amy Martin:those changes about. Is there something going on up here that
Amy Martin:can be replicated in other places, looking to be part of
Amy Martin:the green transition? Because the story here is actually much
Amy Martin:bigger than HYBRIT. Another company, called H2 Green Steel,
Amy Martin:is also planning to build a huge hydrogen fueled steel plant in
Amy Martin:this region, a little further south in the city of Skelleftea,
Amy Martin:a company called Northvolt is building a big new battery
Amy Martin:factory that aims to make batteries that are 95%
Amy Martin:recyclable. The availability of inexpensive renewable energy is
Amy Martin:definitely a major factor in this. Also an abundance of
Amy Martin:minerals and metals. More than 90% of the iron ore produced in
Amy Martin:the European Union comes from Sweden, and one quarter of that
Amy Martin:comes from the area around Gällivare. But energy and iron
Amy Martin:can't accomplish anything on their own. It's what people
Amy Martin:choose to do with those things that matters. So what's the
Amy Martin:secret sauce? Why are these new green industries taking root
Amy Martin:here in Norrbotten, Sweden's northernmost county, which has
Amy Martin:just 250,000 people and about the same number of reindeer?
Marita Johansson:It's a lot of sporty people. They love the
Marita Johansson:snow. They love to ski. They love the nature. They love to go
Marita Johansson:out, hunting, fishing. They are always out.
Amy Martin:Marita grew up here, and she says people in this area
Amy Martin:are very connected to nature. When they aren't working in the
Amy Martin:mine, they're out playing in the snow. But even though this is a
Amy Martin:rural place, it's still very globally connected. I'd heard
Amy Martin:Marita speaking other languages with guests in the hostel, not
Amy Martin:just English, which almost all Swedes can speak fluently, but
Amy Martin:other languages too.
Amy Martin:How many different languages do you speak?
Marita Johansson:I speak Finnish, English, of course
Marita Johansson:Swedish, French and some Russian, some Italian. You must
Marita Johansson:learn some, some different languages when you have a hostel
Marita Johansson:and maybe I have a talent for for languages.
Amy Martin:It sounds like it.
Amy Martin:Marita may indeed have a talent for languages, but her
Amy Martin:polyglotism isn't nearly as unusual here as it would be in a
Amy Martin:small city in the rural United States. Although the stereotype
Amy Martin:is that this country is full of nothing but tall blonde people,
Amy Martin:the reality is 20% of people living in Sweden were born in
Amy Martin:other countries. For comparison's sake, that number
Amy Martin:is between 13 and 14% for the United States and the UK. And
Amy Martin:this internationalism may be a background factor in helping to
Amy Martin:open people's minds to the transition away from fossil
Amy Martin:fuels, culturally and economically, there's a sense
Amy Martin:that the key to future success is a global mindset. Even if
Amy Martin:you're living in a rural town, working in an iron mine.
Lina Nystrom:I got my first kid as I was very young, and it's a
Lina Nystrom:safe place to grow up here. So I stayed and I I like it here. I
Lina Nystrom:like the snow.
Amy Martin:Lina Nystrom also grew up in Gällivare, and she
Amy Martin:works as a production coordinator at the iron mine,
Amy Martin:which is owned by the company called LKAB. She joined the
Amy Martin:company 12 years ago when she was just 20 years old.
Lina Nystrom:I needed a job. I needed money. I want to move out
Lina Nystrom:from home, so it was a good start. And I like their policy.
Lina Nystrom:I like how they treat their staff and everything.
Amy Martin:Because of covid, I wasn't able to go underground to
Amy Martin:see the mine for myself, so I asked Lina to tell me what it's
Amy Martin:like. I assumed people went down into the mine in elevators, but
Amy Martin:I was wrong. You drive into it, she says, and there are 600
Amy Martin:kilometers of roads down there. That's about 370 miles. That's
Amy Martin:how huge this mine is.
Lina Nystrom:The first impression for new people mostly
Lina Nystrom:be like they're afraid, maybe for the roof. But it's no
Lina Nystrom:danger. They are shaking it every day.
Amy Martin:Lina says there are multiple levels to the mine, and
Amy Martin:some of them have offices and workshops in them. There's even
Amy Martin:a restaurant down there. And instead of workers with pick
Amy Martin:axes, they use dynamite to get the iron ore out.
Lina Nystrom:Every day, at midnight, they shoot off with
Lina Nystrom:dynamite.
Amy Martin:Oh.
Lina Nystrom:And they then they load it the day after.
Amy Martin:Every day at midnight. How long has that been
Amy Martin:a ritual?
Lina Nystrom:iIn my forever.
Unknown:Wow, so do people, can you ever feel it above ground
Unknown:like, Oh, there they go with the dynamite.
Lina Nystrom:Yes, all the time.
Amy Martin:Really?
Lina Nystrom:And when you sleep away, you miss it.
Amy Martin:I think for most people living on top of an iron
Amy Martin:mine that's getting regularly blasted with dynamite doesn't
Amy Martin:sound terribly relaxing, but for people in Gällivare,, that small
Amy Martin:earthquake every night is the sound and feel of home and also
Amy Martin:job security. The iron that gets blasted out of the tunnels of
Amy Martin:this massive mine deep below our feet, is turned into steel
Amy Martin:products that get used around the world, and soon it'll be fed
Amy Martin:into the new commercial scale, fossil free HYBRIT plant, which
Amy Martin:will be built here at LKAB.
Amy Martin:Do you think you'd like to work in a new plant?
Lina Nystrom:Yes.
Amy Martin:Why?
Lina Nystrom:I like to learn new things and it's exciting
Lina Nystrom:because it's new. I think it's gonna be a big deal.
Amy Martin:The idea of something being a big deal here
Amy Martin:is especially meaningful when you understand that there's a
Amy Martin:long history of extracting resources from the north of
Amy Martin:Sweden, while money and power stay concentrated in the South,
Amy Martin:in cities like Stockholm and Gothenburg. But now, thanks to
Amy Martin:projects like HYBRIT, there's a sense that the regional dynamics
Amy Martin:are shifting, and people like Lina have the opportunity to be
Amy Martin:part of something truly innovative.
Lina Nystrom:It sounds like the future, like spare the
Lina Nystrom:environment and for for the next generation. It's new and it's
Lina Nystrom:for good sake. So I want to be a part of that.
Amy Martin:Like it feels like a place you can believe in the
Amy Martin:work.
Lina Nystrom:Yes.
Amy Martin:Lina believes in the work and in the company she
Amy Martin:works for, LKAB, and she's not unusual in this regard, labor
Amy Martin:relations are generally very good in Sweden, thanks, in no
Amy Martin:small part to the strength of unions. More than 65% of the
Amy Martin:population is unionized here, and that's part of what has led
Amy Martin:to a whole slew of policies that make Sweden the envy of the
Amy Martin:world for workers. Just to hit the highlights, universal free
Amy Martin:healthcare, five weeks of paid vacation a year, although many
Amy Martin:people get six, and that's on top of a long list of national
Amy Martin:holidays. Parents in Sweden get 480 days of paid leave per
Amy Martin:child. Yes, you heard that, right. 16 months paid. If you
Amy Martin:get sick or lose your job, you can tap into a deep well of
Amy Martin:support. And if you're working and decide you want to go
Amy Martin:advance your education, no problem. Your job is guaranteed
Amy Martin:to be waiting for you when you're done. Oh yeah, and
Amy Martin:college is free. With all of these policies in place and more
Amy Martin:that I don't have time to mention, it's not terribly
Amy Martin:surprising that workers like Lena have a positive feeling
Amy Martin:about their jobs. Another thing that helps to keep the good
Amy Martin:vibes going is income equality. Most CEOs of big American
Amy Martin:companies make hundreds of times more than their average worker.
Amy Martin:In Sweden, the pay gap is much, much less. According to one
Amy Martin:study from 2017 the ratio of CEO to worker pay in the US was 312
Amy Martin:to one. In Sweden, it was 40 to one.
Amy Martin:It sounds like you feel pretty loyal to the company, like the
Amy Martin:company is a good employer to have.
Lina Nystrom:I think so. For me, it has been I like it there,
Lina Nystrom:because all of my colleagues are, we are are so driven to do
Lina Nystrom:it the right way. So everyone work at the same goal.
Amy Martin:And when you say the right way, can you tell me more
Amy Martin:what you mean by that?
Unknown:We want to do improvement for the environment.
Unknown:So I just want to be a part of that.
Amy Martin:I'm talking with Lina in the kitchen of another
Amy Martin:LKAB worker, Peter Knekta. He's been working for the company for
Amy Martin:16 years, and he agrees with Lina that LKAB is trying to
Amy Martin:reduce their environmental impact in many ways, but he also
Amy Martin:has no illusions about the nature of the business they're
Amy Martin:in.
Peter Knekta:I believe that mine is never good for their
Peter Knekta:environment. It makes big wounds and some pollution also, of
Peter Knekta:course, it's a big industry.
Amy Martin:And some of those wounds will take a really long
Amy Martin:time to heal. Peter says he'll show me what he means over in
Amy Martin:the village right next to Gällivare, called Malmberget. We
Amy Martin:hop into his truck and on the way, we chit chat about what he
Amy Martin:likes to do for fun around here.
Peter Knekta:Yeah, sometimes I go hunting with the skis.
Amy Martin:What do you hunt?
Peter Knekta:Mostly birds. But I'm not that great hunter, so if
Peter Knekta:I depended on that, I would be really skinny.
Amy Martin:We arrive in Malmberget and Peter drives us
Amy Martin:up to the edge of a huge crater in what used to be the center of
Amy Martin:town, surrounded by a tall fence. All the mining activity
Amy Martin:around here has made the land unstable, and for decades, it's
Amy Martin:been collapsing in various places. This hole in the middle
Amy Martin:of town has been slowly growing since the 1950s, but there are
Amy Martin:still some lights on in the houses nearby.
Peter Knekta:And I guess some people are still living here.
Amy Martin:It feels like it'd be kind of surreal to live next
Amy Martin:to this big hole that's like slowly eating its way toward
Amy Martin:you.
Peter Knekta:Yeah, it does.
Amy Martin:It sounds a little scary.
Peter Knekta:I don't know scary. It's a part of mining.
Amy Martin:Historically, Malmberget was its own distinct
Amy Martin:community with its own identity and its own small town pride.
Amy Martin:Now it's in a strange liminal state on its way to becoming a
Amy Martin:ghost town, but not quite there yet. On one street, we see
Amy Martin:several homes with cars in the driveways. On the next, it's
Amy Martin:nothing but big empty apartment buildings and vacant lots where
Amy Martin:houses have been picked up, loaded onto trucks and moved to
Amy Martin:safer ground, over in Gällivare.
Peter Knekta:Here, we have a graveyard. One old graveyard,
Peter Knekta:but they have to move it, I guess.
Amy Martin:That has to be moved too.
Peter Knekta:Yeah, everything here.
Amy Martin:Malmberget became a town because of the mining
Amy Martin:industry, and in the not too distant future, it will cease to
Amy Martin:exist because of the impacts of that same industry. It's more
Amy Martin:than halfway gone already.
Amy Martin:Do people have resentment about that?
Peter Knekta:Yes, some of them have. They are feeling it's too
Peter Knekta:bad, but for me, it's a sign of the future. We're making a new
Peter Knekta:town.
Amy Martin:So industry in Sweden does have a shadow side,
Amy Martin:just like it does in Gary, Indiana and kind of everywhere.
Amy Martin:Like Peter said, not everyone here is happy about the loss of
Amy Martin:Malmberget, and there's plenty of debate about how the move is
Amy Martin:being handled. And there are major social justice issues
Amy Martin:connected to industrial development here too. Sweden was
Amy Martin:officially neutral during World War Two, and a lot of the iron
Amy Martin:mined here during that period was sent to Nazi Germany. And
Amy Martin:all of Norrbotten, in fact, much of present day Sweden is part of
Amy Martin:Sapmi, the homeland of the Sami people. For hundreds of years,
Amy Martin:the Swedish Church and crown centered in the south, treated
Amy Martin:sapme as a colony. Sami people were often forced to work in the
Amy Martin:mines, and their reindeer herding lands have been
Amy Martin:fragmented by roads, railways, towns, and of course, the mines
Amy Martin:themselves. And those controversies are not over.
Amy Martin:There's currently a new mine being planned near Jokkmokk, a
Amy Martin:major center of Sami culture, and it's being met with strong
Amy Martin:opposition from many Sami people and others. So it's not like the
Amy Martin:iron and steel industries in Sweden developed in some
Amy Martin:blissful, conflict free context, and I think that's actually what
Amy Martin:makes Sweden's current situation feel especially important to
Amy Martin:study. The story here is not that industry is perfect. It's
Amy Martin:that even with the conflicts and controversies, somehow a culture
Amy Martin:has emerged here in which everyone from executives to
Amy Martin:workers are invested in trying to make industry better. Peter
Amy Martin:and I leave Malmberget and drive the few minutes back over to
Amy Martin:Gällivare. It's cold and dark and snowing, but there are a lot
Amy Martin:of people out and about. The community feels lively. LKAB is
Amy Martin:contributing hundreds of millions of dollars to help with
Amy Martin:the transition away from Malmberget. They're working with
Amy Martin:the local government to help move historically significant
Amy Martin:buildings and to build new ones. There's a new sports center in
Amy Martin:town where some kids are having hockey practice, and we check
Amy Martin:out the new "Kunskaphuset," a beautiful new combination high
Amy Martin:school and adult learning center.
Peter Knekta:I guess that's a part of the future. We're
Peter Knekta:building a lot.
Amy Martin:And I imagine all this moving and building and
Amy Martin:everything that has to be creating some jobs.
Peter Knekta:Yes, a lot of jobs. And believe in the future,
Peter Knekta:when you are putting that much money into it.
Amy Martin:Right. You're basically, you're saying, we're
Amy Martin:not gonna let this place die.
Peter Knekta:No.
Amy Martin:Seeing how LKAB is handling this transition, I
Amy Martin:couldn't help but think about Gary, Indiana. How different
Amy Martin:could things be there if the government and industry invested
Amy Martin:in it like this? What could the future of Gary look like if
Amy Martin:companies like US Steel decided to go all in on fossil fuel
Amy Martin:reduction and engage their workers and the community as a
Amy Martin:whole in that project. Because just like in Gällivare, there
Amy Martin:are plenty of people in Gary who want to believe in the future of
Amy Martin:their community, but it's much harder to maintain that belief
Amy Martin:when you have to battle constantly to get corporations
Amy Martin:to follow basic environmental laws. When you have to collect
Amy Martin:your children's teeth to get them tested for lead poisoning.
Amy Martin:That kind of disregard for the health of the community is
Amy Martin:unthinkable here. There's a sense that everyone is basically
Amy Martin:pulling in the same direction, even when they disagree, and
Amy Martin:that makes it easier to see shades of gray, in your
Amy Martin:employer, in your government and in yourself.
Peter Knekta:I'm a consumer, so I have a snowmobile, I have a
Peter Knekta:car, I have telephones and everything. So we gotta take the
Peter Knekta:metals from somewhere, and I guess we got it here, so...
Amy Martin:Yeah.
Peter Knekta:And the same with the waste, if we are going to
Peter Knekta:consume, if we like to have lots of stuff, then you gotta take
Peter Knekta:care of the waste also, but you can do a lot to make it even
Peter Knekta:better.
Anders Linderg:The world needs steel, and we can deliver it in
Anders Linderg:a climate friendly way, and to be in a company that's evolving,
Anders Linderg:that's developing with people who are prepared for change, and
Anders Linderg:it's so interesting.
Amy Martin:Anders Lindbergh is the press manager for LKAB. He's
Amy Martin:showing me around the mining area, the above ground parts
Amy Martin:that are open to visitors. Like Lina and Peter, he's excited
Amy Martin:about the hybrid project and the general direction the company's
Amy Martin:taking.
Anders Linderg:I liked working for LKAB when I started in 2005
Anders Linderg:but that feeling has really grown now with the green
Anders Linderg:transition. It's really good feeling at the moment.
Amy Martin:We drive past giant structures connected by conveyor
Amy Martin:belts and pipelines. It looks very much like the old version
Amy Martin:of industry, but Anders says LKAB is transitioning all
Amy Martin:vehicles and machinery in the mine to run on electricity.
Amy Martin:They're aiming to remove carbon emission from every step of the
Amy Martin:iron making process.
Anders Linderg:We want to do it fossil free. That's the key to
Anders Linderg:have the entire process fossil free. So our customers could say
Anders Linderg:that they have fossil free steel.
Amy Martin:But all of these processes take energy, Ander
Amy Martin:says, in the future, up to 1/3 of Sweden's total electric
Amy Martin:energy production will be needed here at LKAB.
Anders Linderg:For the next perhaps 10 to 15 years, we have
Anders Linderg:enough energy here in northern Sweden to start the first stages
Anders Linderg:of our transition, but after that we have to have new energy
Anders Linderg:sources. And of course, when we can't export energy to south of
Anders Linderg:Sweden, they will have to have new energy sources. So this is a
Anders Linderg:huge question. That's something for for everyone in Sweden to to
Anders Linderg:be a part of and decide.
Amy Martin:In the US, it's not uncommon to hear people say,
Amy Martin:"Why should we try to lower our carbon emissions when China is
Amy Martin:burning so much coal?" even though the United States is
Amy Martin:still the world's second biggest emitter, and historically, we've
Amy Martin:produced more greenhouse gasses than any other nation. Here in
Amy Martin:Sweden, they're already one of the lowest carbon emitting
Amy Martin:countries in the developed world. They're leading the pack,
Amy Martin:but the attitude here is still, how can we do better? I don't
Amy Martin:think Swedes are inherently more virtuous than anyone else, and I
Amy Martin:don't think they think that either, this mindset just seems
Amy Martin:normal to them, and that's what I'm so curious about. How did
Amy Martin:this become the dominant paradigm here? I want to figure
Amy Martin:it out so we can bottle it and share it around the world. I
Amy Martin:asked Anders what he would put in that bottle.
Anders Linderg:I think that's two main ingredients. It's
Anders Linderg:knowledge and it's motivation. Knowledge about climate change,
Anders Linderg:about our processes, about what's possible to do, and then
Anders Linderg:motivation. Why should we do this? You have to believe in
Anders Linderg:climate change. You have to believe in science. And that's
Anders Linderg:something we do with LKAB. I mean, our operations are
Anders Linderg:grounded, though, in scientific results, so not believing in the
Anders Linderg:science when they say, Hey, you have to do something about the
Anders Linderg:climate change. Of course we have, I'm sure we have people
Anders Linderg:who say, I don't believe in that. You know, CO2 with just
Anders Linderg:the hopes. I'm sure we have those, but they're not that
Anders Linderg:many, and they have to adapt, because LKAB is doing this
Anders Linderg:anyway.
Amy Martin:I asked Mikael Nordlander this question as
Amy Martin:well, and he also talked about the strong sense of shared
Amy Martin:motivation. He said the foundation of this whole
Amy Martin:endeavor is that these three industrial companies want to be
Amy Martin:part of the solution. And starting from that mindset, they
Amy Martin:came to see the need to get off fossil fuels, not as a burden,
Amy Martin:but an opportunity.
Mikael Norlander:I would hate to have a job that doesn't make
Mikael Norlander:any difference. In that context, I think it's the most important
Mikael Norlander:question we have. So on the personal level, I think I'm
Mikael Norlander:really, really lucky to have the chance to work with this. I
Mikael Norlander:mean, it's probably the most exciting thing you can work on,
Mikael Norlander:on the spot of the planet where you have the best circumstances
Mikael Norlander:to do it. So that gives me a lot of satisfaction. It would be
Mikael Norlander:more when we get this up in scale.
Amy Martin:HYBRIT is leading the transition in the steel
Amy Martin:industry, but it's not alone. There are steel companies all
Amy Martin:over the world, including in the United States, that are also
Amy Martin:working on reducing or eliminating fossil fuels in
Amy Martin:their plants. And of course, this transition is what we need
Amy Martin:to do in all of our industries and communities and homes. So
Amy Martin:what can we learn from what's going on here in Sweden? Well,
Amy Martin:one thing is that having lots of carbon free energy available is
Amy Martin:a great way to spark innovation, but the social and cultural
Amy Martin:infrastructure. Here are big factors too. Sweden has invested
Amy Martin:in the education that leads to the knowledge and motivation
Amy Martin:that Anders and Mikael talked about. And they've prioritized
Amy Martin:equality, which helps to build a culture of cooperation. Their
Amy Martin:strong social safety net gives people confidence that they'll
Amy Martin:stay secure in the midst of change, and fosters an attitude
Amy Martin:of we're all in this together, not in a particularly
Amy Martin:sentimental way, just as a matter of fact. My well being is
Amy Martin:tied up with your well being, and we're all tied to the well
Amy Martin:being of the planet. And that makes me think of Carl Sandburg.
Amy Martin:We named this trio of episodes about the steel industry,
Amy Martin:"Prayers of Steel" after his poem by that name. In the first
Amy Martin:stanza, he seems to be pleading to become a steel crowbar that
Amy Martin:can pry loose old walls and lift and loosen old foundations. But
Amy Martin:at the end of the poem, he's praying to become a force of
Amy Martin:connection. He writes, beat me and hammer me into a steel
Amy Martin:spike, drive me into the girders that hold a skyscraper together.
Amy Martin:Take red hot rivets and fasten me into the central girders. Let
Amy Martin:me be the great nail holding a skyscraper through blue nights
Amy Martin:into white stars. We've destroyed a lot through our
Amy Martin:industrial processes. We've caused real harm to the Earth
Amy Martin:and to each other, but maybe under the pressure of the
Amy Martin:climate crisis, we can reinvent industry and learn how to
Amy Martin:channel our creativity and power into the project of Helping to
Amy Martin:hold the world and our communities together.
Miles:Hi, I'm Miles from Jackson, Wyoming. Reporting for
Miles:this season of Threshold was funded by the Park Foundation,
Miles:the High Stakes Foundation, the Pleiades Foundation, NewsMatch,
Miles:the Llewellyn Foundation, Montana Public Radio and
Miles:listeners. This work depends on people who believe in it and
Miles:choose to support it, people like you. Join our community at
Miles:thresholdpodcast.org.
Amy Martin:This episode of Threshold was produced and
Amy Martin:reported by me, Amy Martin, with help from Nick Mott, Erika Janik
Amy Martin:and Sam Moore. The rest of the Threshold team is Caysi Simpson,
Amy Martin:Deneen Weiske, Eva Kalea and Shola Lawal. Our intern is Emery
Amy Martin:Veilleux. Thanks to Sarah sneath, Sally Deng, Maggy
Amy Martin:Contreras, Hana Carey, Dan Carreno, Luca Borghese, Julia
Amy Martin:Barry, Kara Cromwell, Katie deFusco, Caroline Kurtz and
Amy Martin:Gabby Piamonte. Special thanks to Joe Loviska and Ulf Nilsson.
Amy Martin:The music is by Todd Sickafoose.
