This podcast episode features an enlightening discussion with Dr. Allen Tennison, a distinguished theologian, as we delve into the intricate dynamics of spiritual leadership. The primary focus centers on the qualities that constitute a healthy leader in spiritual contexts and the profound implications of misusing spiritual authority. We explore the distinction between empowering leadership and domination, emphasizing the necessity for accountability that encompasses the entire church community. Furthermore, we address the alarming signs and risks associated with spiritual abuse, asserting the collective responsibility of the community to care for those who have been harmed. Through Dr. Tennison's insights, we aspire to cultivate a deeper understanding of effective spiritual leadership, fostering environments that nurture growth and healing in the name of Jesus.

Takeaways:

• The essence of spiritual leadership is rooted in empowerment rather than domination, emphasizing a leader's role to uplift and support others.
• A healthy spiritual community requires accountability that is shared among all members, rather than concentrated solely in leadership.
• Recognizing the signs and dangers of spiritual abuse is essential for fostering a safe and nurturing environment within a church community.
• Communities must take responsibility for caring for individuals who have experienced spiritual abuse, ensuring they receive the support and healing they need.
• Effective spiritual leaders are called to model Christ-like behavior, leading with humility, self-sacrifice, and a commitment to the well-being of their community.
• Healing from spiritual abuse often necessitates the involvement of a supportive community, rather than relying solely on the leaders who may have caused harm.

Hey there and welcome back to the Clarity Podcast.

This podcast is all about providing clarity and life and mission.

And my name is Eric Sanemyer and.

I get to be your host.

Today we have the phenomenal opportunity to have with us back on the podcast Dr. Alan Tennyson, who's a theologian, he's an author, he's a speaker, he's a phenomenal preacher and just someone honestly, every time I to spend time with him, I honestly think I grow in wisdom and grow in insight.

I love how he is open to conversation.

He's highly intelligent, but he's able to communicate in the way that least Aaron Santemayr doesn't feel like he doesn't have a clue.

And so that takes a level of skill to have a great amount of knowledge and then be able to communicate with someone that I don't necessarily send all my days looking at theological principles, but he does, and it's been a blessing to have him on the podcast.

So today we sit down and we discuss what healthy leader looks like.

What does a spiritual leader look like?

And then we go into what does misuse of spiritual authority mean?

What does that look like?

What does it mean for someone to be a shepherd over and be a pastor and be a shepherd and understand the importance of that role, but also that it can be misused.

Describing what the proper use of spiritual authority is and the importance of when someone's been hurt that what the responsibility for the community has to help them find healing in the name of Jesus.

So four things that we kind of focus in on.

One is spiritual leadership empowers rather than dominates.

Accountability belongs to the whole church.

Exercising awareness of the signs and dangers of spiritual abuse.

And the community is responsible for caring for those hurt by spiritual abuse.

And so it was great just to have Alan on the podcast to learn from him and insightful and I think you'll really enjoy it and grateful and thankful for him.

Do ask you to continue to subscribe to the podcast.

I know the podcast I subscribe to.

They're the ones I listen to.

They show up on my feed every Tuesday.

And please continue to send in your questions for Back Channel with Foe.

It's always fun to have Dick on the podcast.

And thank you for listening.

We're approaching 400 episodes and many of you have listened since the beginning and it's been exciting and looking forward to the days ahead.

Well, there's no time better than now to get started, so here we go.

Foreign.

Welcome back to the Clarity Podcast.

So excited to have a friend of the podcast Dr. Alan Tennyson, back with us today.

Alan, welcome back to the podcast.

Oh, it's wonderful to be here.

Looking forward to our conversation today.

You and I, we.

We had an interview.

It's almost been about two years ago, and so if someone has not met you yet, I used to, in the beginning of doing the podcast, I would share what I thought was important about somebody.

But then I realized some of the things I thought were important was not what they thought was important.

So I want to ask you to introduce yourself and share what's important to you before we jump into this very timely and important conversation today.

Absolutely.

My name is Alan Tennyson.

I work at the national office in the Office of Theological Council, which basically just means I'm here in an advisory capacity for national leadership.

Come from a pastoral background.

Fifteen years in ministry, pastoral ministry, direct.

Then about 20 years in higher ed, working as.

And I include with that my adjunct years, but as a theology professor and as a dean of a ministry college at one of our universities in the Assemblies of God.

And then my wife and I, the most important thing, you know, I am husband of one wife, a father of.

We have one biological son, and then we are foster parents, and we may be on the road to adoption.

And so this is just.

Just based on how this is.

So we have two littles at home that we adored very much.

Wow, it sounds like you got a house of.

Full of.

Full of joy and full of energy.

So full of joy, energy and toys are on the floor everywhere.

We have a little toddler who thinks that.

That the greatest thing in the world is to throw something as far as he can.

I remember those days, but I'm an old guy now, so they're a little bit behind me.

My kids are 19 and 22.

So it's been.

My goodness, it's been.

It's went fast.

It's went fast.

Alan, we're going to spend some time today talking about spiritual leadership.

And the position paper was written on the misuse of spiritual authority.

But I think today I'd like to focus on, yes, some of the warnings, but the reality of what it means to be a healthy spiritual leader.

And in the paper, it talked about how motivation, methods and results can help us understand and judge spiritual leadership.

Would you share a little bit about those?

Yeah, And I would say, and again, just kind of give a definition of spiritual leadership.

In the paper, it talks about spiritual leadership as that ability to lead the spiritual development of others or to lead their spiritual development through spiritual means.

And so you are Someone who is actually actively engaged in helping someone else become who God has called them to be, individually and as a community.

That means that for us today, we would look at spiritual leadership in terms of how you lead people to become more like Christians.

Equip them according to their giftings for works of service, unify them together as a community, leadership as a whole, not just spiritual leadership.

Because sometimes we've got to distinguish.

There's spiritual leadership and then there's just leadership.

Okay.

Leadership as a whole can be gauged by motivation, methods, and results.

So typically, the only way that you know whether someone's leadership is succeeding is you look at the results.

Okay.

But the truth is there are people who are accomplishing the right things, but they're in it for all the wrong reasons.

Hmm.

It just so happens, like a broken clock can be right twice a day.

They may actually be getting what you want out of them.

But, yeah, they're not there for the right reasons.

They might not even be doing it necessarily the right way.

And that's really where the broken clock comes in, right.

That even the methods could be wrong.

And so sometimes you can judge someone according to this.

Someone might have the right motivation, even the right methods.

And the problem with the results is that it's just not.

It's something beyond their control.

Others, they have the right motivation, their methods are off, and that's why they're not getting the results that you want.

Where it matters in spiritual leadership is, all three really have to coincide, okay.

Because at the very end of the day, a spiritual leader is first and foremost a model.

So this is something we add to a definition here of leadership for the spiritual leader.

It's not just motivation, methods, and results.

It's, are you a model of what you're leading?

Because what you're doing as a spiritual leader is you're leading someone to develop spiritually.

You can only take them as far as you yourself are.

So right away, what kind of model are you of the kind of Christian that this person is called to be?

Wow.

So.

And then light of that, your motivation absolutely matters.

Your motivation is going to shape your methods.

Your methods are going to shape your results.

And I'll.

I'll give you a negative example.

Not because I want to go negative, but it's helpful sometimes to say, well, here's how it shouldn't look to know how it should if I get into ministry, because I'm really concerned about building a brand, and the brand is my own name, right?

And maybe I don't think it in Those terms.

But in a sense, what I'm really wanting to create is the First Church of Allen Tennyson.

Okay.

Well, if that's my motivation, then my methods are going to be completely off as to what God wants.

So I might look at the people attending my church, not.

Not as the people I'm shepherding.

But they're nothing more than kind of the likes to my ministry.

Right.

Like the more people I can get in there, I count that as bigger brand that I have.

I might count the people who volunteer at my church as their goal.

Their job is to simply serve my brand.

So I might get results.

The results might be that I become a brand, but I haven't led anyone to becoming more like Christ.

Yeah.

You know, if they become more like Christ, it might just be through the accident of me using the Bible to build my brand.

And the Bible works anyway.

Right.

And so it's not what I was trying to do.

It just happens.

Yeah.

And so it's possible if I have the wrong motivation, it's not just possible.

The methods will be off.

The results will be off.

Yeah.

If I want to be a spiritual leader, those, those three need to come together.

And it really comes back down to modeling.

Am I the person that Christ is calling me to be if I'm doing that.

And that's what I'm bringing into this.

My motivation is to help them be who Christ has called them to be.

My methods are going to be those things that lead to Christ likeness, those things that hon Christ.

You know, I like to say that if you can't do it God's way, it's not God's will.

So I'm doing those kinds of things that.

Because they're God's way.

Yeah.

That I'm going to get the results.

And the results might not lead to any branding on my part, but it's going to lead to the glorification of Jesus.

Right.

And ultimately that's what it comes down to.

So we have to understand, you can judge all leaders by motivation, by methods, by results, and you can look at one component at a time.

But when it comes to spiritual leadership.

Yeah.

Those things really have to come together and they really come together under this greater umbrella.

Am I a model of who I'm trying to help people become?

Wow.

Wow.

Love it.

And ton of wisdom.

Alan, when you think of spiritual leadership, what are a few scriptural examples?

You, I mean, you.

I love to hear you.

You shared about being a professor and teacher.

You're also a phenomenal preacher.

And, and so you when you think of scriptural examples of leadership and being a spiritual leader, what do you think of?

Well, I mean, I think if I start with the Old Testament, I think that the primary example is Moses.

Okay.

Moses really does come to us as a phenomenal spiritual leader.

A phenomenal leader in terms of his humility.

You know, they say there's not a man as humble as Moses on the face of the earth in terms of his obedience.

He is a man that.

Except for, you know, a couple of places, right.

That he is a man who is doing what God wants, his faithfulness, and that he becomes an example of leadership, the kind of spiritual leadership.

When Moses dies, his epitaph, right?

So he climbs Mount Nebo, he gets to the summit, he gets on Pisgah, he looks out over the promised land.

And when he dies, the.

The epigraph or the epitaph of Moses, is this what, that he was someone whom the Lord knew face to face?

Not he knew the Lord face to face.

Yeah.

But he was someone whom the Lord knew face to face.

He is a man in that kind of relationship with God, you could say of him.

Like is said of Abraham, he is a friend of God.

Yeah.

And so he represents that kind of leadership, a leadership that flows from his character, and his character flows from his relationship.

Wow.

And so in the Old Testament, that kind of becomes the gold standard of the kind of leader that you want and the people who come after him.

And again, I love what Moses, when he's asking for Joshua, he's asking for a leader.

His prayer is, what?

Because I don't want to leave people as sheep without a shepherd.

And you find this beautiful image in Scripture of the leadership, of spiritual leadership, put in these terms of shepherding, right.

You don't want Israel to be like sheep without a shepherd.

Joshua comes in as that next shepherd.

Judges come in as that next shepherd.

Kings come in as those next shepherds.

They're all exercising not just political leadership, but they're also exercising a spiritual leadership.

And of course, all of these leaders, you know, fail by comparison to Moses in some way and some in very drastic ways.

You find leaders who eventually are judged because they don't trust God or they don't recognize the limits to their authority, or they use their position to take advantage of God's people.

And then, of course, the worst is they become false.

They actually lead people astray.

They lead them from God.

That can happen.

Happen for kings, that can happen for prophets.

And so those, again, are the negative examples.

But what you want is that leader who does the opposite.

There's someone, at least in Old Testament terms, as they fully trust God, they always know it's his authority they're expressing, not just their own.

They're someone who recognizes the limits to their authority.

They're not going to be a Uzziah who goes into the temple and tries to offer a sacrifice himself.

They know that even when you're king, there's certain things you're not allowed to do.

There's someone who's not going to take advantage of God's people.

They're not going to do the wrong things.

They're not going to fleece the flock as shepherds.

And ultimately they're leading people into God's will.

You know, they're able to say with Joshua, as for me in my house, right, you're going to.

If you want to be like me, then do what I'm doing.

They're leading people in the right direction.

They're not leading them astray.

And so in the Old Testament, we find those examples.

In the New Testament, of course, the examples really begin with the disciples, how Jesus is training them, sending them out as apostles as his representatives.

Those apostles in turn, are finding other leaders.

Paul sets aside elders in local communities who are going to lead.

And very likely there's more than one elder per community.

There are deacons who are simply ministers in the community.

And then Paul recognizes particular functions of ministers.

He'll call about apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, teachers, and what are they all doing?

Paul mentions three things in regards to their leadership here in Ephesians one, they're equipping the saints for works of service.

So here's the ministry element.

They're not just doing the ministry of the church, they're leading the church so the church can do its ministry.

Those churches, Christian communities, are called to serve the world, not just serve the church.

And so they're equipping them for works of service.

Secondly, they are doing this as they grow and mature in faith.

Okay?

And so the maturing element to their leadership, and it's.

Until we come to unity of faith.

Right?

So you find ministry, maturity and unity as kind of these three goals of Christian leadership.

But all of that, again, centered around what that we're leading a community that's becoming more like Christ.

Yeah, it's good word, good word, good word, good word.

You know, so the proper use of spiritual authority, you shared examples of Moses, the disciples, and the example of ashe shepherd.

And at times those.

And those roles, there's use of spiritual authority.

And in a world that there's lots of definitions.

So how would you define a proper use of spiritual authority?

And then maybe the misuse of that spiritual authority that comes with being somebody who's modeling the Christ follower that we want to be.

Well, let's first start.

I'll start with the misuse just to highlight the use.

Okay.

Because I want to deal with that idea of shepherd.

If we're going to talk about spiritual, spiritual authority, let's really focus on this image of shepherd.

Okay?

You know, when God criticizes the leadership of Israel and is there's this great passage, Ezekiel 34, where God says to them, basically, you're not being the shepherds I've called you to be.

He says that you're ignoring the needs of the flock.

You're actually misusing the flock.

The flock is scattering because they're not being treated well.

And you're not going after them.

You're just letting them wander off.

I mean, really, you are a terrible shepherd.

And so God's word to the leaders is what?

I'll be the shepherd that Israel needs.

Okay?

I'm going to find the mission sheep, I'm going to heal those that are injured, and I'm going to meet the needs of the flock.

And that becomes the image that Jesus uses In John, chapter 10 when he defines himself as the good shepherd and he makes his own contrast.

Right?

He is a shepherd versus others who are hired hands.

Hired hands are there because it's a job.

If they ever find the wolves coming, well, it's just a job.

I can get another job tomorrow.

So they abandoned the flock.

But a shepherd is someone who knows it's not just a job.

It's about the sheep.

I'm there to protect the sheep.

There's someone who's willing to find the sheep, willing to lead the sheep, willing to protect the sheep, willing to provide for the sheep.

And as Christ himself says, they're willing to lay down their life for the sheep.

And so there's this great understanding of what a shepherd is from the standpoint of Christ, that a shepherd is someone who's doing what they're living self sacrificially.

They're not doing it, as I would say here, they're not doing it for themselves.

They're not living for themselves.

They're someone that is learning to care for, to love, to be able to protect their self.

Sacrificing, not self serving.

They're not dominating, okay?

They're in a sense, submissive.

And I mean submissive in a very particular way.

I don't mean that they're obeying everybody, Right?

But I mean that they're doing their ministry in full consideration of what other people need.

Okay?

There's a way of understanding submission here that I'm living my life in full consideration of what someone else needs.

I know how my decisions affect others, and I'm making those decisions in light of what benefits others.

And then ultimately they're empowering, they're not controlling.

You know, when Jesus warns his disciples not to lead like the Gentiles do, he uses this word here.

He says, you know, don't lord it over others.

Right.

Don't Lord it over others.

That Greek word Lord is the same word that's used when the demon attacks the seven sons of Sceva in the book of Acts.

And it says in our translation, he dominated them.

Really, he lorded it over them.

And I just love this kind of comparison because a bad spiritual leader is one whose leadership could be used for demonic activity.

Right?

They dominate, they lord over.

That's not how Christ is.

And when both Peter and Paul give their requirements for spiritual leadership, those requirements deal a lot with the character of how you treat people.

So Paul says what?

That elder overseer has to be gentle.

They have to have self control.

They cannot lose their temper.

By the way, I love to say that to pastors.

How many of you like would know that if you lose your temper, you're disqualified from spiritual leadership?

They cannot lose their temper.

They cannot be quarrels.

They can't love money, they can't be conceited.

What does Peter say?

He says to leaders, to elders, you have to shepherd communities freely and not begrudgingly.

You have to commit to serving, not self serving.

And he again uses this language, you can't lord your authority over others.

And so throughout Scripture, especially by the time we come to the New Testament from the example of Jesus, there's these clear boundaries of what spiritual leadership is supposed to be and clear boundaries of what it can be.

So much as a clear definitions of what it should be and clear boundaries of what it can be.

Wow.

Wow.

Good, good word.

And so, so in that word, control, Lord, Lord over how?

What does that look like?

Maybe in a practical sense, you know, somebody saying, yeah, because I don't.

Maybe there are people that say, I want to control, but maybe there's things that, you know, people listening in, they're wondering, like what?

Because I. I do think, honestly, the majority of leaders that I run into that are spiritual leaders, they want to lead in a healthy way.

But sometimes, but Sometimes they don't.

They don't know.

They don't.

They don't see their blind spot.

They don't know.

And I'm not saying there aren't.

There aren't people out there that are nefarious.

But I do think the majority of the people that I have the honor of, of knowing that they want to be a healthy spiritual leader.

But when you shared lo over and control any practical examples that you could think of or something that may or.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, let me, let me first give you another definition of authority.

Okay.

Because unpacking this might be helpful to understand where control comes into play.

You can think of authority as a combination of power, responsibility, and boundaries.

Okay.

So, so responsibility means what?

Means accountability.

Yeah, that what you're responsible for, you're accountable for.

Power means your capacity for effectiveness.

And sometimes you see authority is harmed when power and responsibility aren't.

Aren't in balance.

Okay.

So imagine someone who's given authority or accountability for something, but they're not given the power for it.

Okay.

Like I've made you accountable for this, but I'm not giving you any ability to be effective in this.

Right.

That, that, that means they're not really given the authority.

They have the authority in theory, they didn't really have the authority in practice.

And I think we can imagine sometimes in the church where you give someone authority.

Yeah, I'm making you accountable.

But then you don't give them the tools they need to be effective.

You micromanage, you.

Well, what you've done is you've really taken away their authority.

Yeah.

You might have given them a title, you might have them answer for this, but they don't actually have any power to do anything about it.

Right.

There's also the boundary problem, which is that sometimes people over exercise power.

And you know, I like to say your accountability ends where someone else's responsibility or your authority ends where someone else's responsibility begins.

Wow.

And there are times that you actually are taking responsibility from someone else just because you're exercising power over what they're accountable for.

So you can imagine.

And so now to get some concrete examples in a church setting, think of elders within a church who are exercising.

Exercising power over something that a pastor has primary responsibility for.

And in a sense, what they're doing is they're not letting that pastor be accountable to have effectiveness over what their job is.

And over time, that could be seen as an attack on that pastor's authority.

Yeah.

Or a pastor can exercise power that interferes with the responsibility of a church member, say, for example, every single Christian is responsible to God for their own spiritual life.

I'm the one who's responsible to say yes to God right now.

I'm going to say this like an Arminian, but I'm the one who's responsible say yes to God.

Right?

Right.

It's my yes that has to.

That God wants to hear.

And if I, as a pastor, am exercising my power in leading people in such a way that I'm taking away their ability to say yes or no, I'm making decisions for them that they're supposed to make.

What I'm actually doing is I'm interfering with their development as a Christian.

So I could be exercising.

And again, I might do it in the real sense of.

Or the.

What would I say here?

An innocent sense of.

I just really want this person to be helped.

Yeah.

I really want this per.

You know, so let me say yes for you.

Let me say yes on your behalf.

Or what sometimes is more likely is I need to get everyone on the same page, and I need to get them on the same page today.

So rather than give the church time to catch up, I'm going to manipulate them and to say yes, even if they don't really know what they're saying yes to.

Because we've got to move forward today.

Because for some reason, I think time is of the essence.

Yeah.

Wow.

And so I'm.

I'm making choices for them that really should be their choice to make.

And sometimes where manipulation really becomes a control factor.

I mean, manipulation itself is a.

A form of control.

But now I'm even no longer telling people the truth because if they knew the truth, they might say no.

And I just need everyone to say yes right now.

Wow.

And so I'm.

I'm sacrificing their ability to trust me in the future by trying to dominate them in the present.

And if they lose their trust in me, my response to that is just to replace them with someone else who doesn't yet know that they can't trust me.

Wow.

And so eventually you can get to that where you find massive turnover in someone's pastoral leadership.

Not because, you know, they're helping, you know, mature people and they're moving on to other places.

It's because people keep realizing they can't trust this person because this person is, is dominating them rather than empowering them.

I don't know.

Did that answer your question?

It did.

It did.

100%.

It did 100%.

So, Alan, one of the other things I, I really appreciated in the, the, the position paper, it that often healing when somebody has been under leader, you said about somebody, they can't trust them, they're moving on.

You know, they've been under spiritual leader, they can't trust them, so they move on.

But also the position paper shares that, you know, often healing will not take place through a ministry of a leader who created a wound.

Can you unpack the practicalities of that in the sense that if somebody's hurt somebody, then maybe that ministry or that pastor is not going to be able to minister to them.

And as they walk through the healing process, is that a fair understanding of what was written?

Yeah, it is.

And I think part of this is understand when someone has been hurt.

And I'll say this, the paper identifies spiritual abuse in this way, that it's really an abuse that's using a spiritual authority to control or coerce someone.

So it occurs in a spiritual context.

It's motivated by desire to lord authority.

It's marked by persistent behavior.

There's something about it that's intentional and it causes real harm.

And the people who have been harmed by spiritual abuse, and I think the paper identifies that they can have increased bouts of fear, shame, depression, and at the end of it, they can lose their trust, not just of church leaders, but lose their trust of the church and that they isolate themselves entirely.

Which means that spiritual abuse as a result can actually unravel the work of discipleship.

Okay.

Rather than spiritual leadership doing what it should do, which is lead to further discipleship, spiritual abuse actually unravels discipleship.

And in that way, someone who has been hurt may not be able to look to the person who hurt them as the person where they're going to get healing.

One, the leader that hurt them may not be repentant.

Okay.

How can I be healed from an abuser who doesn't recognize what they did was abuse?

Yeah.

Secondly, even if the person is repentant, they might not still fully understand what happened.

Yeah.

And you know, they're like, well, maybe I should have just said it this way, not that way.

No, no, no.

There was a persistent pattern here that you just haven't identified.

It may be that the person who is the abuser, and I'm just assuming that this person was a real abuser, that there's a lack of healing in their own life.

Yeah.

And again, I can't see someone else be healed when I myself in a need of healing.

Yeah.

And so if the person has abused you, don't look to them for healing when they need healing.

Yeah.

That's not going to be your source.

Yeah.

There may also be, on the part of the person abused, just a lack of forgiveness.

And the reason there's a lack of forgiveness is that's what the healing is leading you to.

Yeah.

But you can't look to the person you haven't forgiven as the source of your healing.

Yeah.

And at the end of the day, the healing that occurs is still going to have to happen within the context of Christian community.

It's not one person who's just going to make this right for you.

Because healing, true spiritual healing, isn't something that's just happening in isolation.

We need community.

Otherwise we try to control our own healing.

Yeah.

And instead we need to be in community for that.

And so if you're looking to the person who hurt you to be the person who healed you, that also means you're looking for one person to fix that.

Yeah.

And that's really not healthy.

Yeah.

And for the spiritual leader, I think for them to know that if they've the.

They're the ones that have called, caused the hurt, if they've misused their spiritual authority not to try to control somebody and say, hey, I'm going to be the person that's going to help you find healing.

And for them to understand, you know, that's.

It's just not the.

This relate.

That's not the relationship for that.

And have the willingness to help people find community, as you said, so they can seek and find healing and understand that.

And sometimes it might mean helping someone find another church.

Yeah.

And just recognizing that, that this, this may not.

And again, I also want to identify.

Not everyone who says they've been abused have been abused.

Okay.

Right.

One thing spiritual abuse is in.

The paper says this.

It's not correction.

Okay.

The job of the spiritual leader is to correct.

Right.

I mean, we are to correct.

We're to rebuke, we're to.

We're to encourage.

All of those are part of what we're called to do.

And so sometimes people can feel like they've been abused just because they've been corrected.

Because we live in a culture that doesn't know how to be Correction.

Correct.

Right.

We see correction as rejection.

We don't see correction as affection.

You know, what does Jesus say to the church in Laodicea?

The Lord loves those whom he disciplines.

Yeah.

And we don't understand that discipline can actually be a form of affection when it's done.

Well.

Yeah.

At the same time, it's not discomfort, just.

Just because you're uncomfortable doesn't mean it was abuse.

It could be that the pastor just has a terrible personality.

Yeah.

And it's true.

I mean, some people just aren't warm and friendly and what you're looking for isn't who they are.

But they're not an abuser.

They're just not what your ideal was.

It could be that they just made a mistake and it wasn't an intentional ongoing pattern of behavior.

You know, I love this principle called Hanlon's Razor, which is don't assume malice when stupidity would suffice.

Don't, don't assume that someone was out to get you when the better answer is they just didn't know what they were doing.

And the truth is we don't expect a 52 year old or 22 year old minister to have the same level of maturity as a 52 year old minister.

Yeah.

And so give grace to the 22 year old to realize they might make a mistake.

That doesn't mean it was abuse.

Abuse also isn't going to be necessarily decontextualized, which is to say that something might be appropriate in one setting that's not in another.

So for example, the way you get treated at boot camp is going to be different than the way you're treated at Walmart.

You know, if they treated an employee at Walmart like they're in boot camp, you might say that's abusive.

And boot camp, you're like, nope, that's entirely appropriate.

Right.

Because what you're being trained to do here requires this.

But it can't just be.

So you have someone who say, going through a rehab program and there might be a certain measure of controlling their minutes and their hours because they're learning how to live without drugs.

And, and so there's something there that's appropriate.

Would be entirely inappropriate in a church office.

Yeah.

And so understand, you've got to say it doesn't mean that because someone is complaining that it was abuse, but abuse absolutely occurs.

You can be controlling someone, you can be control coercing someone, you can be manipulating someone through spiritual means.

You can be even discipline someone in an incorrect way.

Maybe they require discipline, but the way you're doing it is terrible.

Right.

I mean, that's not how you discipline someone.

And I think there's a lot of pastors out there that aren't.

There aren't abusers.

If they are because they're predators, which is one form of abuse.

Right.

You literally are feeding off the flock.

They're not there because they're narcissists, which can be another form of abuse.

You're someone that is doing this out of your own ego.

They're not.

They're not there just because they're insecure.

There's some pastors that.

The abuse just comes out of insecurity.

You know, I feel so insecure in my own leadership.

I see everyone as a threat in whatever way that doesn't provide me with praise.

Yeah, yeah.

It may just be that you just don't know how to discipline.

You don't know how to do this in a good way.

And again, the answer to that is community.

And so, on the one hand, I don't want to just assume that that abuse has happened without understanding.

Right.

Those pastors might hear this.

I. I've talked about abuse before, and I've had pastors like, well, now I feel terrible, and I'm like, well, that doesn't mean you're an abuser.

It's just, let's understand what spiritual abuse is.

Yeah.

But if you're trying to control, if you're trying to coerce, if you're trying to manipulate for spiritual means, if you're doing something appropriate ways, that's not causing someone to feel empowered.

Rather, they're losing their ability to say yes to God.

Yeah.

Because of how you're leading them.

Yeah.

That's where we can say, this is clearly a case of abuse.

Yeah.

So, Dr. Tennyson, somebody's listened into this.

And.

And maybe a pastor comes up and.

And shares.

Aaron Santa Mar comes up and shares.

And.

And you recognize as you talk with me, you say where.

And that that's.

You're.

You're controlling and this, you know, and.

And you're in community.

Recognize it.

What's the next step for somebody who, who is.

Recognizes that they have.

They've done this or they've been controlling or they've lorded over someone.

What.

What do they do?

Next step?

Any.

Any.

Well, I think 1.

We need to talk about the severity of it.

Okay.

Are we talking about something that you're recognizing that.

That, Okay, I overstepped, you know.

Yeah.

And I need to go up to this person and just apologize.

Yeah.

Is this something that has been such a persistent pattern of behavior, this is now habitual?

And it's not just a matter of I need to apologize, you need to step back.

Okay.

You need to learn how to do this better because what you're doing is actually hurt.

There are places where it's entirely appropriate to remove someone from leadership because the way that you Lead isn't going to be fixed in a night of having a difficult.

It's not just one intervention that's going to fix.

Fix this.

There's something that you need to work on in yourself.

There may even be someone who.

And again, I'm not talking about predators.

Right.

Because there are people who just.

I mean, there's some people just need to be arrested.

Yeah, we're not going to remove that.

No, no.

You are a threat to the community.

Right.

There's some people that need to be removed.

There's something that you say, look, maybe this is something that you need to focus on something else right now before you can be trusted again with someone's spiritual care.

And that's okay because here's the thing.

Your identity is found in Christ.

It's not found in your title.

Yeah.

You aren't who you are because you're called pastor or because you're a global worker or someone.

No, you are who you are because of Christ.

And if you move from this assignment, if you are moved from a position of authority, that's okay.

If it's what you need to become more like Christ.

Don't stay in any position of authority that's keeping you from being the person God has called you to be because you don't know how to use authority.

Yeah, it is perfectly okay to be removed, but in some cases, removal is not required.

What's just required is your own discipline.

Yeah.

It may be nothing more than apologizing and realizing I just screwed up this time and I'm going to do it better next time.

It may be saying, look, I might need more help.

I need more accountability.

But then I think there is a point that it's such a persistent pattern that, you know what?

I've got to step away entirely.

Even if it's just for a time to figure out, can I be trusted with other people?

Because at the end of the day, that's what it is.

Can I be trusted with other people?

Yeah.

Wow.

And the power, the, the responsibility, you've touched on it earlier.

The responsibility that goes with that.

And then any words of wisdom, Alan, for somebody that is.

They're listening into this.

They've.

They've been hurt in the past and they've, They've suffered under somebody with that misused spiritual authority and they've been abused.

Any words of wisdom on.

On how they can begin to.

That healing takes place, as you said, in community and through the power of love of Jesus Christ.

But any words of wisdom for them as they, they navigate that yeah.

One, I would, I would first try to determine the degree to which you have been abused.

Okay.

Because the truth is it might require greater intervention for you.

It might require a certain form of counseling that really is you one on one with someone else because you need help understanding what's happened to you.

Don't try to heal yourself.

Here's the thing.

When we try to heal ourselves, we always go after the disease or the diseased organ in our body with an ax.

And the Holy Spirit uses a scalpel.

We need to make sure that we're not the one who's trying to treat ourselves.

It may be that you just want to isolate.

You know, when you have been hurt, you never know who to trust.

And the hardest thing is to be back into a community and to say, look, I still want to be a part of other believers.

Because that, that's the damage of spiritual abuse is I, is, is not just what's been done to me.

But then I respond by isolating myself from other Christians.

And at that point I'm limiting my own opportunities to grow because I'm no longer a part of a local body of Christ.

Yeah.

And so I need to make sure that I stay in community.

You're like, well, I just don't know if I can trust a community.

Well, then that's where you need to be talking to someone.

You need to get to a place of health where you can trust again.

Because at the end of the day, we have to have each other.

We need each other in order to become like Christ.

I need a place where I can receive the spiritual gifts of other people.

And I need a place where I can exercise my spiritual gifts, gifts on their behalf.

I need a place where I can lead.

However God has called me to lead in whatever way doesn't mean I have to have a position, but that I'm still there.

Because at the end of the day, I'm going to at one point be the most mature Christian in the room.

If I just live long enough.

I've got to have a place where I can exercise that kind of eldership just in maturity.

Yeah.

And I need a place where other people can, can exercise that for me.

And so I would say, and again, I'm thinking about this because I just had this conversation with someone, know you yesterday, who has been hurt by a church and was telling me the story.

And since then they've never gone back.

And they're like, you know, how do I.

And they're wrestling with their relationship with God and they're like, well, how do I.

And one of my answers is this.

You've got to get back to church.

Yeah.

You've got to get back to.

Now, again, I understand how they've heard.

And I'm not just making this easy or simple.

This may be something that you need to talk to someone and see.

What do I need to do?

Get back to this place of trust.

But you've got to be a part of a community.

You can't just spend the rest of your life on your own because that will negatively affect how you see God.

Yeah.

Because you're now taking on a measure of control over yourself.

That's not healthy.

Yeah.

Alan, that's not the only answer.

But.

But that's.

That's one thing I would.

It's on my mind right now because I just had the conversation.

No.

And I very much appreciate it.

I'm going to ask you one more question.

Thank you.

Then I'm going to ask you to pray for us.

One of the things in the paper, it lists four things that every Christian community should be taught.

And this kind of goes to healthy community is spiritual leadership.

Empowers rather than dominates.

And you've shared about that.

Accountability belongs to the whole church.

Exercise awareness of signs and dangers of spiritual abuse.

And the community is responsible to care for those hurt by spiritual abuse.

You took.

That's a big topic that you all have covered and you've wrestled with and you.

You distilled it down to not just.

But.

But four key areas.

Yeah.

How did, how did you.

Is the process of landing in those four key areas?

Is that a fair question?

Well, yeah, it's a very fair question.

One is.

And if you read the paper, you find the number of sources that are cited.

Yeah, it's.

It's.

And I'll give you some of the sources that are involved in this.

So it's.

And I'm looking at.

Because I have on my screen here, Johnson and Bonduran, the Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse.

Oakley and Humphreys, Escaping the Maze of spiritual abuse.

DeGroat, when narcissism comes to church.

Barringer and McKnight, a church called Tove.

Langberg, Redeeming Power.

Mullen, something's not right.

Kruger, Billy Pulpit.

Right.

And those are just some books that we're looking at.

Are there common consequences, consequences in these books?

Common things that people are saying, if you're going to be healthy, you have to have this.

You have to have this.

Yeah.

One of the things that comes up constantly is transparency.

Okay.

That you've got to have transparency in A church that, that people know that there's nothing going on behind closed doors, that that is, is can be damaging.

There's got to be some level of transparency.

There has to be accountability structures in that community.

When it says that accountability belongs to whole church, what it means is don't think of leadership as just belonging to the church office.

Like sometimes we talk about the church offices, if that's the church and then who the church is or just the clients that receive whatever the church office decides.

No, no.

It all belongs to the church, to the community, to every member there.

And we are all accountable for the spiritual health of that community.

Which is why transparency also becomes important.

If we teach people what good spiritual leadership.

I love the emphasis you had at the beginning, beginning of this.

I don't want to just talk about the negative, I want to talk about the positive.

Yeah.

If we recognize what spiritual leadership is supposed to be.

Yeah.

It becomes easier to recognize when it's not.

Yeah.

And it's not just, oh, here's all the warning signs of spiritual abuse.

No.

We need to know what a spiritual leader is called to be.

We need to know what a shepherd looks like, what a model looks like.

And it's not just one person in the church.

It's all the elders in that community together, those who are exercising their gifts together.

That, that has respond different levels of respons, different breadths of responsibility.

But everyone working together.

Here's what spiritual leadership looks like.

Accountability belongs to all of us.

We are recognizing some of the signs and dangers of spiritual abuse.

If you have healthy leadership where spiritual abuse can still be present is when people are learning to exercise leadership for the first time.

Because again, you don't always know how.

You don't just suddenly be 22 years old and have the maturity of a 50 year old.

Yeah.

Or a 60 year old.

Right.

You don't become a first time youth pastor and suddenly you're Doug Clay.

That's not going to happen.

Yeah.

You need time.

And so sometimes it's those who are just learning that you have to watch out for, but it's to guide them so that they can be trusted with people.

You're just starting this, I want to help you with this.

And then of course the community is responsible for caring for those who are hurt.

The big danger, as I've said, is that you become isolated and the community recognizes because what happens when some people get hurt by the church.

We don't want to have an uncomfortable conversation.

We don't want to have to deal with what's going on with you?

Why aren't you coming back?

What's happening?

And so it just becomes easier to forget that that person was ever a part of our community and don't recognize.

No, we're responsible for the people who are part of this church.

Even when they're angry at us, we still have a responsibility to them.

Why?

Because Jesus sent them to us.

Yeah.

Everybody who's a part of our community just assumed they were sent by God and that one day God's going to walk into the building and just count and see who's there.

Right.

And ask what happened to that person.

Oh, I don't know.

No, we don't.

That's a terrible answer.

To get back to Jesus, if they came to us, he sent us.

Sent them.

Yeah.

Even if they came to criticize.

Yeah.

We have to treat them as if they were sent by God and care for them accordingly.

Yeah.

Now if they don't want anything to do with us, we don't force ourselves on them either because that just perpetuates abuse.

I'm not controlling them.

Yeah.

But I need to be willing to make responsibility for caring for them, even when it's uncomfortable and difficult.

Yeah.

Good work.

Good work.

Did that answer that?

It did.

100.

100.

Will you pray for us?

I appreciate this conversation.

I appreciate your wisdom and insight and the ability to communicate it in such a clear way.

And you're.

You're casting a vision for what a healthy spiritual look leader looks like.

At the same time understanding and that people have been hurt and people get hurt and how we can the responsibility we have to help care for them and when they've been hurt.

So will you pray for us today?

Father, I just thank you that you are the shepherd that we can trust, that you are the one who looks after the sheep, you are the one who feeds the flock.

You are the one, Lord, who goes after the missing.

You are the one who heals the injured.

You are the one who leads us to the good places and you will willingly lay down your life for us.

Lord, I pray that in our leadership we could reflect Christ fully.

Help us to live sacrificial self sacrificing.

Don't let us live self serving.

Help us, Lord, to live submissively to a community and not dominating.

To live and lead by empowering others rather than controlling others.

Lord, I pray that for those who have been hurt, for those, Lord, who have been abused.

God, I pray for healing in their life.

Lord, I pray for the healing that would allow them to trust a community again for the healing that would allow them to actually be whole, not to forget what was done, but to be able to be like Christ even after.

Lord, I pray that discipleship would not be unraveled in any loss, but that you would help us as leaders to further disciple, to understand the deep connection between our leadership in other people's development, to be able to see the way that you call us to lead, to recognize all the boundaries that you put in place to our leadership.

And that, Lord, at the end of the day, we would hear the words that every leader longs to hear from you.

Every servant.

Well done.

And we pray this in Jesus name.

Amen.

Amen.

Sam.