Shownotes
The JudgeMental Podcast – Episode 06
Title: Dressing Down
Hosts: Hugh & Christine
Episode Summary:
In this candid episode of The JudgeMental Podcast, hosts Hugh and Christine—two seasoned attorneys and the minds behind Judgy—dive deep into the world of judicial accountability. They break down viral clips of judges on social media, share personal stories from their combined 30 years in law, and discuss the real reasons they both left the legal profession.
Key Topics:
- Viral courtroom moments: Analyzing a judge’s public apology after an outburst and what it reveals about courtroom culture.
- The power dynamic in court: How judges’ behavior impacts attorneys, clients, and the public’s trust in the system.
- Behind the scenes: Hugh and Christine’s personal journeys, including the emotional toll of practicing law and the breaking points that led them to leave.
- Systemic issues: The role of FOCs (Friend of the Court), GALs (Guardian ad Litem), and the need for reform in family court.
- Social media & accountability: The impact of judges’ online presence and the importance of transparency.
- How to navigate difficult courtroom situations and advocate for change.
Notable Moments:
- Christine’s passionate response to judicial misconduct and the lack of accountability.
- Hugh’s reflections on empathy, professionalism, and the changing culture of the courts.
- Real-life stories of courtroom drama, from viral TikTok judges to questionable rulings.
- A call for listeners to share their own stories and viral clips for future episodes.
Call to Action:
Have a viral lawyer or judge video you want analyzed? Tag @judgey_judge_y on TikTok or visit judgey-judge-y.com to submit your clips and stories.
Connect with Us:
- Website: judgey-judge-y.com
- TikTok: @judgey_judge_y
Thank you for listening!
If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, rate, and leave a review. Your support helps us shine a light on the need for transparency and reform in our courts.
The JudgeMental Podcast: Where sharp insights, candid critiques, and unshakable honesty meet the fight for a better justice system.
Transcripts
You are listening to
The Judgemental Podcast.
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We're Hugh and Christine, the Minds
Behind Judgy, the revolutionary app
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that empowers you to judge the judges.
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It's pastime for judicial accountability
and transparency within the courts.
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Prepare for sharp insights, candid
critiques, and unshakable honesty from
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two lawyers determined to save the system.
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We need some justice.
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Justice, my fine justice.
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And I wanna ring, be in public.
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I wanna ring, be in public crowd.
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Yeah.
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Christine: All right, y'all.
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Welcome to the Judgmental podcast.
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We are going to talk about the viral clips
of the week from judges on social media.
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We're gonna talk about why both of us,
Hugh and I left the practice of law
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after 30 years combined between us.
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We're also gonna give some advice
for how to deal with these judges.
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Not legal advice, but just kind of
how to conduct yourself in court.
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Thank you so much for tuning in.
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You wanna jump right into the
judge that snapped at the old guy?
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Hugh: Yeah.
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Well, first I wanna say yeah, thanks
for tuning in and for content ideas.
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We'd like to hear from you guys.
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Please what you want us to cover,
what types of things related to
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court judges, those types of things.
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We wanna make sure we hit content
that people are looking for.
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Also shout out to three Floyd's
Brewery for a phenomenal beer.
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Drinking a gumball head today.
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Christine: So it's been
one of those days here.
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I'm sitting here sipping my ice tea, but.
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Hugh was ready to inbibe Yeah.
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And I'm Jelly
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Hugh: needed, needed to.
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Christine: Mm-hmm.
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/ Your Honor, sir, let me answer
the ques, ask the questions.
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All right, sir, you're finding
yourself very close to contempt.
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I'm sorry, Mr.
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Erkin, why are you not here?
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Your Honor, I received the
court notice yesterday.
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When did you receive
notice of today's hearing?
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Yesterday in the afternoon?
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No, on paper.
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When did you receive it?
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Receive what?
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Your Honor.
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Good God.
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When did you receive on paper
the notice of today's hearing?
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There's nothing, I have not received
anything on paper of today's hearing.
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Then how did you know to call my
staff yesterday and tell them that
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you were going to appear by Zoom?
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That's correct.
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Alright babe.
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But before you do that, why don't
you go ahead and have a seat?
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'cause I, I wanna address something else.
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I need to apologize to you
for my behavior of last week.
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Uh, it was very unprofessional to
me and you did not deserve that.
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Uh, so I sincerely apologize.
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I truly let my temper get the best of
me, your honor, judge, that's fine.
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We all make mistakes.
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Hugh: in my experience was not frequent,
but was also not unheard of, where a
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judge would get very frustrated with
someone and they're not getting the
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answer that they want, even though
the person is telling the truth.
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We have an attorney who did not get any
kind of written notice of a hearing,
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Christine: allegedly,
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Hugh: allegedly who shows up to a
hearing because allegedly they, they
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received some sort of tip off from
someone that a hearing was taking
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place, showed up, and the judge was very
frustrated and the judge just acted very
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unprofessionally and yelled and acted
very condescending and getting frustrated.
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With the attorney.
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And then when he asked how he found out
about the hearing, the attorney couldn't
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tell him because it was confidential
and it was privileged and it seemed
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to be just sort of the last straw.
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Christine: Yeah.
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And I don't even know if maybe
the attorney couldn't hear him.
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This guy is so elderly.
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I'll tell you, this one sent me to a new
level of rage for a plethora of reasons.
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Yeah.
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Mainly I think this shows like the
demeanor that some judges have, like
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this judge should be removed from the
bench for that behavior in and of itself.
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Hugh: Well, I think somebody talked to him
about it and to his credit, he apologized
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and apologized to the attorney's face.
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I think he was appearing, I
think he was upset because the
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attorney was appearing by Zoom.
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Yeah.
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And I think the attorney was presumably
appearing by Zoom because he had
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just received notice of the, he, I
hadn't received formal notice that
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there was going to be a hearing.
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He.
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Found out from some confidential source
that there was going to be a hearing
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and he wanted to make sure it didn't
take place without him being there as an
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attorney for a party in interest Naturally
should not go forward without him there.
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Right.
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And was being dressed
down terribly for it.
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Now I know that clip at the end is
the judge apologizing in person.
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So there was obviously at a later
date where that attorney was there
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in present, in person, present in the
courtroom, which needed to happen.
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Christine: I think it was the next week.
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And I, I don't think an
apology suffices there.
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Like, and I think this is the bigger
picture there is, in my opinion, there
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is zero way that that judge would
behave like that outside the courtroom.
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And so that judge is aware that
that's inappropriate behavior.
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And I think we see that a lot with judges
like we've talked before on this podcast.
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There's no way some of the judges,
the way they have spoken to me and
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my clients would ever speak to me
like that on the street corner, ever.
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Hugh: I mean, a judge, you would never
expect someone to walk up to you on
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the street and talk to anyone, let
alone someone that they, you know,
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the judge has to have a professional
relationship with someone that is
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practicing in that judge's court that if
that happened outside of the courtroom,
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that would be completely unacceptable.
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But inside the courtroom it's an elderly
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Christine: person.
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Hugh: Well, and someone who was
just being grilled on why he was
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there by Zoom when it's the judge
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Christine: staff is
the one that fucked up.
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Hugh: Well, I don't know.
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I don't know , who did it, but if,
if what he is saying is true, he
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didn't get written notice of it.
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Mm-hmm.
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And it's only because someone tipped
him off that he actually was there.
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And god knows what would've
would've happened if that hearing
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had gone on without him there
and he didn't have notice, then
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you'd run into so many problems.
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But if you were that
person's client mm-hmm.
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How in the world.
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Would you have an expectation
that your judge was going to be
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objective on your case if a judge
acted that way toward your attorney?
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Right.
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And this is something that, while I didn't
have that situation that often, although
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there were one or two judges that if
they were in a bad mood, you could expect
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that kind of behavior either toward a
client or toward, toward the attorney.
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And you could tell within the first
minute, minute and a half of a proceeding
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or a motion hour how that was going to go.
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But from a client's perspective, I, I've
seen that happen to where I've had to
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argue with a judge over a call that wasn't
correct, that was dispositive or, or was
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highly prejudicial to my client's case.
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And it was clear to me that the
judge, there was something that
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needed to be explained and it
would change the ruling on it.
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And.
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I always went about it very quietly.
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I like I'm not, I wasn't perfectly stoic.
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I showed emotion in the courtroom,
but I didn't get upset and I
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always tried to be very gentle
and in sort of explaining things.
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And you would be met with the kind
of reaction we saw in that video.
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Yep.
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And then as happened in that case, the
judge realized that he was incorrect
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and the attorney was correct, but and
that will happen in the courtroom and
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the judge will then reverse, , the
ruling and let something in that you
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needed to get in or exclude something
that should very, you know, should
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under the rules be excluded, but then
the client is left with an impression.
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Yeah.
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That no matter what happens at that
hearing, what I would find is I
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would go through the rest of the
hearing if we performed very well.
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That moment is what
stuck , in the client's mind.
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Christine: Well also, do we know if
this judge just apologized because
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the clip was going viral or because
they knew someone had leaked it
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on TikTok, , or was it genuine?
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'cause in my experience, grown
men or women don't huff and
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puff and behave like that in a
professional setting as a one-off.
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That's a general standard practice.
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Hugh: Yeah.
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No, I, I would agree with that, that it's
I never saw it from a judge just one time.
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Yeah.
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If I practice regularly in front of them,
my guess, and it's just a guess, but from
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a lot of experience is that that judge
had good staff and a lot of times if you
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have staff that's been with you for a long
time and can speak freely with you, when
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he finished off the bench, he was told
in no uncertain terms by his staff that.
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You can't act like that.
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Do you realize what just happened and,
and hopefully how you, how you reacted
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to that attorney was very unprofessional.
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Christine: What do you think
his punishment should be?
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Hugh: Oh,
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Christine: if any,
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Hugh: from a one-off instance like
that, which is all we know about.
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Okay.
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All we saw the clip.
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He apologized.
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He apologized professionally.
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The attorney handled it very well.
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I think that's it.
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If it's one time a face-to-face apology
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Christine: not for me.
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Okay.
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You know what?
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I think it should happen?
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I think he should have to go down to
like an IGA in eastern Kentucky, find
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the oldest person shopping there,
go up to them, speak to them like
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he spoke to that elderly attorney,
and then whatever happens, happens.
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Hugh: Yeah.
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I, you know, the way that I saw the
clip, . It seems like an ancillary
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fact that the attorney is elderly.
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It didn't seem like the it doesn't
seem like the reaction from the
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judge was coming from something that
resulted in, from the attorney's age.
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I mean, I think that there should
probably be I, growing up in, in
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South Carolina, certainly there's a.
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Level of deference and respect
that you owe to your elders.
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Christine: Yeah,
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Hugh: you absolutely, but I think the
two things, I can't tell if they're,
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if that's related or not, or if the
judge was just in a bad mood and the
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person, whoever it was that was there
appearing by Zoom, was gonna get
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that kind of treatment no matter who.
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Christine: I guess I could see that.
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I just think that it's a
notion that there's no.
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Way.
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I mean, we could take it outta Eastern
Kentucky and we could say, let's go
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down to the 32nd and West Broadway and
go up to somebody, an elderly person
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or a young person, and speak like that.
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And then whatever happens,
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Hugh: you g you would get
slapped and you should
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Christine: Oh.
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I mean, you get, and the thing
that's the point is like, he would
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know better not to behave like that.
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Yeah.
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So he puts this black robe on and
gets Judge iis and just thinks he
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can speak to someone like that.
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And that just like a simple
apology is gonna cut it.
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I mean, that, that made me sick.
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And I think Well, it's
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Hugh: because you've been through it.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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You, it brought back the feelings
of you sitting in the courtroom and
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that's happening and you're powerless.
222
00:10:38,426 --> 00:10:38,546
Mm-hmm.
223
00:10:38,936 --> 00:10:41,276
Hugh: And you're wondering,
oh God, how do I explain that?
224
00:10:41,276 --> 00:10:43,556
What do, what do I have to
tell my client after this?
225
00:10:43,556 --> 00:10:44,846
Because ding, ding, ding, I'm right.
226
00:10:44,846 --> 00:10:45,686
I didn't do anything wrong.
227
00:10:45,686 --> 00:10:45,776
Right.
228
00:10:45,776 --> 00:10:47,486
But I'm being dressed down
and they're gonna think.
229
00:10:47,736 --> 00:10:50,526
Naturally this judge wouldn't be
mad if I hadn't done anything wrong.
230
00:10:50,586 --> 00:10:52,356
Christine: Yeah, that's so true.
231
00:10:52,356 --> 00:10:56,226
Also, I just posted our clips of
us talking about the judge that
232
00:10:56,226 --> 00:10:57,516
used to get mad at everyone.
233
00:10:57,576 --> 00:10:57,665
Mm-hmm.
234
00:10:57,906 --> 00:11:01,986
And the comments and the dms and just
some of the pro se people that responded.
235
00:11:02,046 --> 00:11:02,496
Just everyone
236
00:11:02,496 --> 00:11:03,276
Hugh: knew who it was.
237
00:11:03,426 --> 00:11:03,996
Christine: Oh yeah.
238
00:11:04,476 --> 00:11:05,406
Actually, it's funny.
239
00:11:05,406 --> 00:11:08,496
One person suggested another old
attorney, which she was a little
240
00:11:08,796 --> 00:11:10,401
out there sometimes too, but old
241
00:11:10,601 --> 00:11:11,201
Hugh: attorney or old judge,
242
00:11:11,376 --> 00:11:11,616
Christine: judge.
243
00:11:12,491 --> 00:11:12,761
Judge.
244
00:11:12,761 --> 00:11:13,031
Yeah.
245
00:11:13,061 --> 00:11:13,691
I'll tell you later.
246
00:11:13,861 --> 00:11:19,711
But the traumas, the power that
these judges have and the fact that
247
00:11:19,711 --> 00:11:23,191
they don't quote unquote realize it
or if they do realize it, they're
248
00:11:23,191 --> 00:11:25,471
just utilizing it to be abusive.
249
00:11:25,501 --> 00:11:28,381
And that's where I really struggle
'cause I just struggle that any
250
00:11:28,381 --> 00:11:31,151
human being it's the same thing
with like domestic violence, right?
251
00:11:31,151 --> 00:11:36,040
Like you yell at your significant other at
home or you tell them horrific things in
252
00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:37,811
private that you would never do in public.
253
00:11:37,811 --> 00:11:39,131
It's because you know better.
254
00:11:39,181 --> 00:11:40,051
It's a bad look.
255
00:11:40,141 --> 00:11:43,171
And these judges in particular,
the judge that we talked about
256
00:11:43,171 --> 00:11:46,831
previously, would never speak to
any of us like that off the bench.
257
00:11:46,831 --> 00:11:49,651
It was something that happened the
second that she stepped foot on the
258
00:11:50,221 --> 00:11:50,491
Hugh: Yeah.
259
00:11:50,881 --> 00:11:53,371
And do you know what
type of proceeding Nope.
260
00:11:53,371 --> 00:11:54,061
That video was from?
261
00:11:54,211 --> 00:11:57,821
So on this podcast we talk a lot
about family court and if it were just
262
00:11:57,821 --> 00:12:02,561
attorneys appearing before a judge for
a pretrial case management conference.
263
00:12:03,191 --> 00:12:07,241
It would not be excusable, but it would
be easier to understand where, the
264
00:12:07,241 --> 00:12:11,621
judges that could talk very frankly
with the attorneys, I oftentimes
265
00:12:11,621 --> 00:12:15,221
liked that, but only if you could,
everybody could just lay it on the
266
00:12:15,221 --> 00:12:18,341
line and cut the BS while you were
talking at a pretrial, if you were
267
00:12:18,341 --> 00:12:19,931
off the record or sitting in chambers.
268
00:12:19,931 --> 00:12:21,971
Not ex parte, but like everyone together.
269
00:12:22,271 --> 00:12:23,171
I appreciated that.
270
00:12:23,171 --> 00:12:28,901
I'm not saying that just treating
somebody like that in general is okay.
271
00:12:28,931 --> 00:12:29,201
Yeah.
272
00:12:29,261 --> 00:12:34,511
But when we're talking about family
court, there is a much higher
273
00:12:34,511 --> 00:12:37,091
level of sensitivity because of
the issues that we're dealing with.
274
00:12:37,361 --> 00:12:38,921
Sometimes it's just financial.
275
00:12:38,921 --> 00:12:44,411
Sometimes people are being petty about
something financial that has very little
276
00:12:44,411 --> 00:12:47,621
value, and it's just the emotions and
all, and the judges will get frustrated.
277
00:12:47,621 --> 00:12:53,111
But for the most part, people are there
arguing over the most important things.
278
00:12:53,516 --> 00:12:54,086
Their life.
279
00:12:54,146 --> 00:12:54,356
Yeah.
280
00:12:54,716 --> 00:12:58,226
And when it comes to people's
children, and you see a judge acting
281
00:12:58,226 --> 00:13:01,346
like that and getting frustrated
and not wanting to spend the time
282
00:13:01,346 --> 00:13:07,056
to get to the bottom of something so
simple about maybe everyone should
283
00:13:07,176 --> 00:13:09,246
receive adequate notice of a hearing.
284
00:13:09,246 --> 00:13:12,786
That's, that has a substantial
impact on the case.
285
00:13:13,096 --> 00:13:15,666
When you see that happen in
family court, , it's chilling.
286
00:13:15,696 --> 00:13:16,476
It's shocking.
287
00:13:16,626 --> 00:13:21,356
And it's a terrible experience to
have to sit through because you have
288
00:13:21,356 --> 00:13:23,186
to sit there and say, yes, judge.
289
00:13:23,186 --> 00:13:24,026
Thank you, judge.
290
00:13:24,116 --> 00:13:25,046
Christine: Your honor,
your honor, no matter how,
291
00:13:25,046 --> 00:13:26,786
Hugh: your Honor, how,
no matter how, yeah.
292
00:13:26,786 --> 00:13:29,906
Depending on which courtroom you're
in no matter how they're treating you.
293
00:13:30,146 --> 00:13:34,196
And you have to immediately start
thinking, well, how am I gonna explain
294
00:13:34,196 --> 00:13:36,986
this to my client because they're
gonna think I did something wrong,
295
00:13:37,106 --> 00:13:38,756
because the judge is in a bad mood.
296
00:13:38,966 --> 00:13:41,786
But it's even worse when you
see that happen to a client.
297
00:13:42,026 --> 00:13:42,236
Yeah.
298
00:13:42,236 --> 00:13:45,476
And I've sat through a trial where
that happened two or three times in
299
00:13:45,476 --> 00:13:48,266
the courts of a full day trial and.
300
00:13:49,356 --> 00:13:52,696
, Opposing counsel came up
afterwards and said, wow, , does
301
00:13:52,696 --> 00:13:53,836
the judge know your client?
302
00:13:53,836 --> 00:13:55,306
Like, why does she hate her so badly?
303
00:13:55,696 --> 00:13:59,716
And it's just every time she would say
something, the judge would roll her eyes
304
00:13:59,716 --> 00:14:01,486
and cut her off and just get to the point.
305
00:14:01,486 --> 00:14:04,156
And it was, but it was
from the very beginning.
306
00:14:04,546 --> 00:14:08,476
And I'd kind of seen that
before to previous hearing.
307
00:14:08,476 --> 00:14:11,626
So we had scripted out, not, not scripted.
308
00:14:12,136 --> 00:14:14,686
We had gone through
question and answer the we.
309
00:14:14,686 --> 00:14:17,776
There was no rambling, there
was no extraneous information.
310
00:14:17,776 --> 00:14:21,076
There was, I'm asking a
very specific question.
311
00:14:21,076 --> 00:14:22,576
You're giving a very specific answer.
312
00:14:22,576 --> 00:14:25,546
We're building our story, we're
putting on the evidence that we needed.
313
00:14:25,726 --> 00:14:29,926
It wasn't something where, I mean, we've
all sat through testimony that just
314
00:14:29,926 --> 00:14:34,246
meanders and wanders and everybody in the
courtroom is tense and frustrated with it.
315
00:14:34,516 --> 00:14:37,756
It was not that, and the judge
was treating it like it was the
316
00:14:37,756 --> 00:14:39,676
most pointless thing in the world.
317
00:14:39,676 --> 00:14:41,776
It was just so not worth her time.
318
00:14:41,776 --> 00:14:42,165
And.
319
00:14:42,931 --> 00:14:44,161
You don't get past that?
320
00:14:44,251 --> 00:14:44,461
Christine: No.
321
00:14:44,461 --> 00:14:47,731
It makes me physically ill to think
about, and we talked on our first podcast
322
00:14:48,031 --> 00:14:51,991
about how attorneys need to speak up
and you know, I think it's great in
323
00:14:51,991 --> 00:14:56,401
hindsight to think about all the things
I've done since I left the practice or
324
00:14:56,401 --> 00:15:01,771
that we're doing now, but then if I had
a dollar for every time I didn't speak
325
00:15:01,771 --> 00:15:03,301
up when something like that happened.
326
00:15:03,541 --> 00:15:03,781
Oh, yeah.
327
00:15:03,811 --> 00:15:03,931
You
328
00:15:03,931 --> 00:15:06,991
Christine: know, I mean, there's a
lot of guilt that comes with that too.
329
00:15:07,091 --> 00:15:07,961
Hugh: Oh no, I agree.
330
00:15:07,961 --> 00:15:10,781
And, and, but, but it's, it's
always the question of what do I do?
331
00:15:10,781 --> 00:15:15,821
This is not, so if a judge is acting or
any, it's like anyone acting irrationally.
332
00:15:15,971 --> 00:15:16,061
Mm-hmm.
333
00:15:16,301 --> 00:15:19,121
You want to have a rational response
to it, but then you have to think,
334
00:15:19,691 --> 00:15:20,861
is that going to make a difference?
335
00:15:20,861 --> 00:15:22,451
Because they're acting
irrationally anyway.
336
00:15:22,481 --> 00:15:25,481
So if they are mad about something and.
337
00:15:26,486 --> 00:15:29,246
They're treating someone
in some outsized way.
338
00:15:29,276 --> 00:15:30,056
How?
339
00:15:30,086 --> 00:15:31,646
Like what is the appropriate thing to do?
340
00:15:31,646 --> 00:15:36,836
, If we were giving advice to young
attorneys who are experiencing
341
00:15:36,836 --> 00:15:37,826
that, what would you say?
342
00:15:37,826 --> 00:15:41,151
Because if you bring it up, no
matter how politely you bring it up.
343
00:15:42,461 --> 00:15:43,841
I'd say it's a coin flip.
344
00:15:43,841 --> 00:15:45,551
Whether or not you made
things worse or not,
345
00:15:46,001 --> 00:15:47,741
Christine: I don't
disagree with that at all.
346
00:15:47,741 --> 00:15:52,421
I think what I would tell young attorneys
now is to DM me, send it to me and
347
00:15:52,421 --> 00:15:54,431
I'll put it all over social media.
348
00:15:54,981 --> 00:15:58,071
And I'll put it all over and I'll
put money behind sponsoring it.
349
00:15:58,071 --> 00:16:03,141
'cause I tell you what, like, that one
judge in particular, I heard a story that
350
00:16:03,471 --> 00:16:08,031
this judge said, if y'all can't get along,
I can just put this kid in foster care.
351
00:16:08,121 --> 00:16:08,301
Hugh: Yeah.
352
00:16:08,421 --> 00:16:09,981
Christine: And if I, you ever heard that?
353
00:16:10,431 --> 00:16:10,881
Hugh: No, no, no.
354
00:16:11,091 --> 00:16:12,201
I, I've heard this example.
355
00:16:12,261 --> 00:16:12,501
Christine: Okay.
356
00:16:12,591 --> 00:16:14,841
And I'm gonna tell you right now,
if I find video of that, I don't
357
00:16:14,841 --> 00:16:16,191
even care if it's confidential.
358
00:16:16,191 --> 00:16:17,151
I'm gonna put it online.
359
00:16:17,151 --> 00:16:18,681
I won't do it associated with us.
360
00:16:18,681 --> 00:16:21,291
But that is, that is sick.
361
00:16:21,381 --> 00:16:22,851
That is disgusting.
362
00:16:22,851 --> 00:16:25,101
That is immediate removal from the bench.
363
00:16:25,101 --> 00:16:25,886
Even, even if it's,
364
00:16:25,891 --> 00:16:27,741
Hugh: even if it's just a
threat to, you know, yeah.
365
00:16:27,806 --> 00:16:28,791
You, you threaten.
366
00:16:29,421 --> 00:16:31,401
You threaten people to
get their attention.
367
00:16:31,401 --> 00:16:34,971
That's, it's just a, it's
a different arena in court.
368
00:16:35,031 --> 00:16:35,181
Yep.
369
00:16:35,181 --> 00:16:38,721
You're not dealing with your own, you
know, five-year-olds who are fighting.
370
00:16:39,021 --> 00:16:39,231
Right.
371
00:16:39,231 --> 00:16:43,040
It's like those types of
threats are a big deal.
372
00:16:43,521 --> 00:16:46,731
Christine: And I think that
that is just next level.
373
00:16:47,191 --> 00:16:47,911
, The scary thing.
374
00:16:47,911 --> 00:16:50,191
'cause I talk to some judges
now and they're like, do you
375
00:16:50,191 --> 00:16:52,021
realize how stressful our job is?
376
00:16:52,021 --> 00:16:53,761
Like we have people that threaten us.
377
00:16:53,761 --> 00:16:55,171
We have all of this stuff.
378
00:16:55,411 --> 00:16:58,621
Well, if you have a judge that's
threatening to put a kid in foster
379
00:16:58,621 --> 00:17:02,281
care because parents can't get
along, your beef is with that judge.
380
00:17:02,311 --> 00:17:05,851
Because what would you do as a
parent if you're going in and you're
381
00:17:05,851 --> 00:17:10,021
having some debate about, ah, hell,
I don't know, a vaccine, whether or
382
00:17:10,021 --> 00:17:11,731
not somebody's gonna play soccer.
383
00:17:11,731 --> 00:17:13,560
And the judge is like,
y'all don't get it together.
384
00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:14,491
I'm gonna take your kid away.
385
00:17:14,611 --> 00:17:14,820
Yeah.
386
00:17:14,971 --> 00:17:18,001
Christine: I mean that's, you would
not have a, you wouldn't be a normal
387
00:17:18,001 --> 00:17:21,001
parent to be honest if you didn't
have a visceral reaction to that.
388
00:17:21,361 --> 00:17:22,771
Hugh: Oh, and it.
389
00:17:23,326 --> 00:17:26,685
Completely changed my perspective
when I had kids of my own.
390
00:17:26,685 --> 00:17:28,306
And I saw that for the first time.
391
00:17:28,306 --> 00:17:32,536
And I thought if I was sitting in
a hearing in front of someone who
392
00:17:32,536 --> 00:17:36,646
has full power to do whatever he
wants or she wants with my children.
393
00:17:36,706 --> 00:17:36,976
Yeah.
394
00:17:37,036 --> 00:17:38,896
Hugh: Including take my custody away.
395
00:17:38,926 --> 00:17:39,016
Mm-hmm.
396
00:17:39,826 --> 00:17:43,756
And they were acting that
flippantly about my kids.
397
00:17:43,876 --> 00:17:47,446
I don't think I could sit as commonly
as my clients do, but I think so much
398
00:17:47,446 --> 00:17:50,566
of the time people sit there very
commonly because they are in such shock.
399
00:17:50,596 --> 00:17:50,686
Mm-hmm.
400
00:17:50,926 --> 00:17:52,186
They don't know how to react.
401
00:17:52,336 --> 00:17:55,416
And let me tell you, when people
speaking to people who aren't
402
00:17:55,416 --> 00:17:57,156
represented, when you do react.
403
00:17:58,716 --> 00:18:00,876
Usually gets much worse.
404
00:18:01,416 --> 00:18:01,596
Christine: Yeah.
405
00:18:01,596 --> 00:18:03,966
And I think that's kind of the
cycle that we need to break.
406
00:18:03,966 --> 00:18:06,816
I mean, really and truly, it's a
cycle, like a cycle of domestic
407
00:18:06,816 --> 00:18:10,176
violence, a cycle of alcoholism,
a cycle of coercive control.
408
00:18:10,486 --> 00:18:14,236
The cycle that these judges have
gotten themself into where it's just,
409
00:18:14,236 --> 00:18:15,946
it's one big club, you're not in it.
410
00:18:16,156 --> 00:18:18,466
And we can do whatever we
want without consequence.
411
00:18:18,776 --> 00:18:20,126
Time's up, you know?
412
00:18:20,276 --> 00:18:21,326
I think that's the point.
413
00:18:21,386 --> 00:18:22,826
Hugh: But you see the opposite as well.
414
00:18:22,886 --> 00:18:26,296
I mean, you see judges , especially
judges who have kids, and that those
415
00:18:26,296 --> 00:18:29,506
moments where they relate to people
that are sitting there, yes, I know
416
00:18:29,506 --> 00:18:32,566
you think this is a big deal and I'm
here to solve this and help you through
417
00:18:32,566 --> 00:18:36,076
it, but let me tell you, my kids are
a few years older and this is gonna be
418
00:18:36,286 --> 00:18:41,746
nothing like I, I'm okay with sometimes
you sort of, you know, it Family court
419
00:18:41,746 --> 00:18:43,186
requires sort of a different touch.
420
00:18:43,186 --> 00:18:43,246
Yeah.
421
00:18:43,276 --> 00:18:45,016
I think than, than certain other things.
422
00:18:45,496 --> 00:18:51,676
I, I think airing on the, like the
compassionate side and completely ruling
423
00:18:51,676 --> 00:18:55,956
out any of the overreactions or being
flippant is the only way you should
424
00:18:55,956 --> 00:18:57,606
deviate as a judge on the family court.
425
00:18:57,686 --> 00:19:00,146
Christine: Hell, I can't think of a
time though that empathy is not gonna
426
00:19:00,146 --> 00:19:03,846
be beneficial to anyone on the bench.
427
00:19:03,846 --> 00:19:07,506
I mean that why else take the
job if you can't empathize to
428
00:19:07,506 --> 00:19:09,456
see two sides of every story?
429
00:19:09,636 --> 00:19:12,631
Even even in criminal court though,
I mean, , you have to understand
430
00:19:12,631 --> 00:19:13,982
like, have you ever read a PSI.
431
00:19:15,601 --> 00:19:16,201
Hugh: I don't believe I have.
432
00:19:16,336 --> 00:19:17,836
Christine: That's a
pre-sentence investigation.
433
00:19:17,836 --> 00:19:19,846
So every time you're charged
with a felony, before you get
434
00:19:19,846 --> 00:19:21,866
sentenced they'll do a PSI.
435
00:19:21,866 --> 00:19:25,016
And in that PSI, they'll talk
about literally every twist.
436
00:19:25,016 --> 00:19:28,706
And that is the, basically the background
of any sort of dependency, neglect, and
437
00:19:28,706 --> 00:19:30,506
abuse action that's happened to somebody.
438
00:19:30,836 --> 00:19:33,176
And you will see the scenario.
439
00:19:33,236 --> 00:19:35,576
You know, a lot of times people
don't get where they are in a
440
00:19:35,576 --> 00:19:37,136
vacuum actually most of the time.
441
00:19:37,556 --> 00:19:40,796
And the horrific things that people
experience in their childhood or
442
00:19:40,796 --> 00:19:44,486
experienced in their life, and
maybe this is why they're addicted
443
00:19:44,486 --> 00:19:47,966
to substances, or maybe this is
why they act the way that they act.
444
00:19:48,026 --> 00:19:52,466
And so when sentencing them, you know, the
best judges I ever practiced in front of
445
00:19:52,646 --> 00:19:57,326
didn't point their finger like, how dare
you, you son of a, it was just, this is
446
00:19:57,326 --> 00:20:01,646
your sentence, this is your consequence,
please, while you're in custody.
447
00:20:02,061 --> 00:20:06,921
Get treatment, address these issues,
you know, you're still a human being.
448
00:20:06,921 --> 00:20:06,981
Yeah.
449
00:20:07,371 --> 00:20:11,226
And so I, , I just don't think this
isn't Venezuela, you know, we aren't
450
00:20:11,226 --> 00:20:15,636
supposed to just decide one way and
then stone someone, not that they
451
00:20:15,636 --> 00:20:17,166
stone people in Venezuela, or do they?
452
00:20:17,166 --> 00:20:17,706
I don't know.
453
00:20:18,336 --> 00:20:19,386
They may, I mean, I don't,
454
00:20:19,446 --> 00:20:19,926
Hugh: yeah.
455
00:20:20,226 --> 00:20:23,286
It may drag 'em off to a prison
they're never heard from again.
456
00:20:23,286 --> 00:20:26,346
But I, I don't believe
stonings are general practice.
457
00:20:26,446 --> 00:20:28,516
, You know, and I've had, I remember,
458
00:20:30,736 --> 00:20:32,116
I'm trying to think if
this is confidential.
459
00:20:32,116 --> 00:20:34,486
No, I, I was involved in the case.
460
00:20:34,486 --> 00:20:46,116
I, and the father was had been shot
six times in the chest and was still
461
00:20:46,116 --> 00:20:47,796
ended up without custody of his kids.
462
00:20:49,421 --> 00:20:53,501
The, the wife and mother of the kids
shot him six times, invited him to
463
00:20:53,501 --> 00:20:57,461
the house, had him sit down on the
couch, went to the back, grabbed a
464
00:20:57,461 --> 00:20:59,081
gun, walked in, and blew him away.
465
00:20:59,081 --> 00:21:04,871
And so you can imagine all of the things
that the judge might have to make her
466
00:21:04,871 --> 00:21:09,801
the better bet for having custody of
the kids, how bad it must have been.
467
00:21:09,801 --> 00:21:16,161
But I remember him in court sort of
impassioned when he realized that
468
00:21:16,161 --> 00:21:19,611
no matter what he did, you know,
things weren't gonna change that day.
469
00:21:20,151 --> 00:21:21,171
He said something.
470
00:21:21,251 --> 00:21:24,996
But I was their father and I've done and
the judge stopped him and I thought she
471
00:21:24,996 --> 00:21:26,406
was gonna dress him down or something.
472
00:21:26,406 --> 00:21:29,136
She said, no, I'm gonna
set the record straight.
473
00:21:29,166 --> 00:21:31,536
We're gonna get this
really clear right now.
474
00:21:31,686 --> 00:21:33,216
You are their father.
475
00:21:33,306 --> 00:21:33,396
Mm-hmm.
476
00:21:33,396 --> 00:21:34,626
Not you were their father.
477
00:21:34,626 --> 00:21:37,476
My ruling today does not take
that away and I want you, and
478
00:21:37,476 --> 00:21:39,336
it was amazing to me mm-hmm.
479
00:21:39,366 --> 00:21:39,996
That the judge.
480
00:21:40,491 --> 00:21:42,531
Said, okay, we've got
things we need to work on.
481
00:21:42,531 --> 00:21:43,821
There are things that we need to remedy.
482
00:21:43,821 --> 00:21:45,351
This is step one.
483
00:21:45,381 --> 00:21:48,081
You are, I'm not taking you
out of these kids' lives.
484
00:21:48,141 --> 00:21:49,281
These are my expectations.
485
00:21:49,281 --> 00:21:50,601
You will always be their father.
486
00:21:50,601 --> 00:21:51,531
You're important to them.
487
00:21:51,891 --> 00:21:55,911
That kind of stuff I thought made
a difference in people's lives.
488
00:21:56,271 --> 00:21:56,841
Christine: Absolutely.
489
00:21:56,841 --> 00:22:00,651
And I can go down the rabbit hole of
talking about all the negative stuff that
490
00:22:00,651 --> 00:22:04,071
judges have done, but I have, I mean,
there was a reason I was an attorney for,
491
00:22:04,291 --> 00:22:09,971
15 years and I had some great judges,
, and I did have a judge that yelled
492
00:22:09,971 --> 00:22:12,461
at me once and I appeared before him.
493
00:22:12,696 --> 00:22:13,806
Thousands of times.
494
00:22:13,806 --> 00:22:16,536
This is when I was a public defender
and he did, he snapped at me one
495
00:22:16,536 --> 00:22:20,096
time and I remember , he looked at me
afterwards and was like, my bad, you
496
00:22:20,096 --> 00:22:23,516
know, after court was like, the look
on your face was just sheer shock.
497
00:22:23,516 --> 00:22:26,036
And it was kind of like, oh my
god, daddy just yelled at me.
498
00:22:26,036 --> 00:22:29,576
Like, because he'd always been, now
he was stern and all of those things.
499
00:22:29,576 --> 00:22:29,636
Yeah.
500
00:22:29,666 --> 00:22:32,306
But that is not how he conducted business.
501
00:22:32,496 --> 00:22:37,146
This is Willie Roberts out of Eastern
Kentucky and one thing that he always
502
00:22:37,146 --> 00:22:41,326
did in particular and I hope he doesn't
get mad about me talking about that, but
503
00:22:41,326 --> 00:22:44,626
he did juvenile court and he would tell
those kids every client I had, when you
504
00:22:44,626 --> 00:22:45,646
graduate high school, I'll be there.
505
00:22:45,896 --> 00:22:46,706
Like, you know what I mean?
506
00:22:47,036 --> 00:22:49,796
And or when you have this big
thing, I'm gonna be there.
507
00:22:49,946 --> 00:22:52,346
And he went, he actually
followed through with it.
508
00:22:52,376 --> 00:22:54,926
And now we're not talking about
a district judge in Louisville.
509
00:22:54,926 --> 00:22:58,346
They, they have to, they have dockets,
all they handle four counties.
510
00:22:58,626 --> 00:23:01,716
And he always went and he
never took a picture of it.
511
00:23:01,986 --> 00:23:03,096
But that's the kind of stuff.
512
00:23:03,096 --> 00:23:04,476
Did he change every person's life?
513
00:23:04,506 --> 00:23:04,836
No.
514
00:23:04,986 --> 00:23:06,396
But did he change some people's?
515
00:23:06,396 --> 00:23:07,086
Yes.
516
00:23:07,146 --> 00:23:07,236
Yeah.
517
00:23:07,416 --> 00:23:11,656
And those are the stories that we
need to highlight for the good.
518
00:23:11,656 --> 00:23:15,406
I'd love to hear from some of like prior
public defender clients about things
519
00:23:15,736 --> 00:23:19,716
that judges or attorneys did for them
or how the system really helped them
520
00:23:19,716 --> 00:23:20,916
because there are so many of that.
521
00:23:21,156 --> 00:23:22,806
So yell at me when I
go down my rabbit hole.
522
00:23:22,956 --> 00:23:26,286
Hugh: Well, I've also seen judges
that say, look, I can empathize.
523
00:23:26,286 --> 00:23:29,136
If you were asking me just as a
human being and this, these would
524
00:23:29,136 --> 00:23:32,616
happen in civil cases where you
were having maybe a pretrial or
525
00:23:32,616 --> 00:23:34,176
you were talking in chambers about.
526
00:23:34,936 --> 00:23:38,026
What issues you were gonna
proceed on, which ones might be
527
00:23:38,026 --> 00:23:39,441
good for mediation or mm-hmm.
528
00:23:39,521 --> 00:23:40,246
Or something like that.
529
00:23:40,246 --> 00:23:41,756
So, docket control.
530
00:23:41,831 --> 00:23:42,121
Yeah.
531
00:23:42,121 --> 00:23:42,122
Yeah.
532
00:23:42,172 --> 00:23:45,142
And you'd be sitting in the back and
the judge would say, I could empathize.
533
00:23:45,142 --> 00:23:48,412
I would feel exactly the same way your
client does, but legally you're gonna
534
00:23:48,412 --> 00:23:51,892
have to prove X, Y, and Z before I
could see that there's a claim there.
535
00:23:51,892 --> 00:23:52,102
Mm-hmm.
536
00:23:52,108 --> 00:23:56,092
Just because, you know, this
obviously happened, this was a
537
00:23:56,092 --> 00:23:57,532
bad thing that was traumatic.
538
00:23:57,532 --> 00:23:59,332
It doesn't mean that
there's a legal claim.
539
00:23:59,332 --> 00:24:02,212
So there's a difference between
empathizing and ruling for someone.
540
00:24:02,332 --> 00:24:02,452
Oh, true.
541
00:24:02,572 --> 00:24:07,312
It's just being human while still
carrying out your duties as a judge.
542
00:24:07,522 --> 00:24:07,822
Christine: Yes.
543
00:24:07,822 --> 00:24:08,092
Yes.
544
00:24:08,092 --> 00:24:11,722
I think that maybe one of the
missing components for a lot of
545
00:24:11,722 --> 00:24:14,032
judges is just that human component.
546
00:24:14,122 --> 00:24:17,512
And I think that we've seen that
just in the last three to five years.
547
00:24:17,572 --> 00:24:21,052
Like really, I think it
has dramatically escalated.
548
00:24:21,052 --> 00:24:21,712
Am I wrong?
549
00:24:22,642 --> 00:24:25,492
Hugh: You know, it's always hard
for me to tell I've I litigated
550
00:24:25,492 --> 00:24:28,102
for almost exactly 20 years before.
551
00:24:28,522 --> 00:24:33,802
I decided to try to, to take the
next step of my career in my life and
552
00:24:35,962 --> 00:24:40,522
oftentimes I, I think people
look back on the past as better.
553
00:24:40,702 --> 00:24:40,972
Yeah.
554
00:24:40,972 --> 00:24:43,882
You know, there's this fallacy that,
you know, things were better in the
555
00:24:43,882 --> 00:24:49,612
past, but I tend to think that you are
correct, that things have gotten far
556
00:24:49,612 --> 00:24:55,162
worse, they've gotten more, they've
gotten far less formal, and there
557
00:24:55,162 --> 00:24:59,992
seems to be, and I think honestly this
mirrors society in general right now.
558
00:25:00,022 --> 00:25:05,932
There is a, there is a difference
in the level of respect that's being
559
00:25:05,932 --> 00:25:10,702
given to other people, but I think
it's mirrored in the courtrooms.
560
00:25:10,702 --> 00:25:13,642
And I think attorneys get frustrated
and don't show the same respect
561
00:25:13,642 --> 00:25:15,172
for the judges as they used to.
562
00:25:15,412 --> 00:25:17,902
But it's sort of like
with kids, when parents.
563
00:25:18,982 --> 00:25:22,042
Or nasty to kids and they say,
why are you disrespecting me?
564
00:25:22,372 --> 00:25:23,662
That's all you've taught.
565
00:25:23,667 --> 00:25:23,957
Mm-hmm.
566
00:25:24,042 --> 00:25:27,772
That's a reaction that you have to expect
if you treat other people with disrespect
567
00:25:27,802 --> 00:25:29,332
all the time, you're gonna get it back.
568
00:25:29,332 --> 00:25:32,242
But I think that that's happening
throughout society and we're
569
00:25:32,242 --> 00:25:33,772
seeing it reflected in our courts.
570
00:25:33,772 --> 00:25:41,632
But what you and I saw being family
practitioners is how that change in the
571
00:25:41,632 --> 00:25:44,212
discourse had huge impacts on families.
572
00:25:44,212 --> 00:25:44,272
Yeah.
573
00:25:44,302 --> 00:25:48,292
It wasn't just, well, I'm not
going to find that your offender
574
00:25:48,292 --> 00:25:52,042
bender was all his fault and
I'm, you know, it'd be one thing.
575
00:25:52,042 --> 00:25:54,532
But when you're talking about
someone's kid, something that is
576
00:25:54,532 --> 00:25:56,932
going to have lifelong implications.
577
00:25:57,607 --> 00:26:02,707
You're doing it flippantly or not
paying people the respect of listening
578
00:26:02,707 --> 00:26:05,677
to their case and you're just watching
your watch and watching your computer
579
00:26:05,677 --> 00:26:06,997
screen, it makes a big difference.
580
00:26:07,117 --> 00:26:07,657
Christine: Totally.
581
00:26:07,927 --> 00:26:10,327
And that's just a segue
for everybody listening.
582
00:26:10,327 --> 00:26:12,367
We're both licensed attorneys.
583
00:26:12,677 --> 00:26:16,847
We left, I left for sure because I
just, I was at my breaking point.
584
00:26:16,847 --> 00:26:20,267
I mean, there was like many straws,
but there was one thing that
585
00:26:20,267 --> 00:26:23,777
broke the camel's back and you're
a licensed attorney 20 years in.
586
00:26:24,087 --> 00:26:27,747
Let's kind of talk a little
bit about why you left.
587
00:26:27,747 --> 00:26:30,507
How long did you wanna leave
before you left finally?
588
00:26:30,777 --> 00:26:32,127
Hugh: Oh that's hard to say.
589
00:26:32,127 --> 00:26:38,187
It's once I was out and I realized how
different I felt as a human and how
590
00:26:38,187 --> 00:26:42,837
much healthier I was and how my mindset
was after I left, I realized that I
591
00:26:42,837 --> 00:26:46,257
had been in a bad place for years.
592
00:26:46,262 --> 00:26:46,412
Mm-hmm.
593
00:26:46,587 --> 00:26:49,317
I think I started noticing
it getting very bad.
594
00:26:49,467 --> 00:26:52,047
I'd say about five
years before I left and.
595
00:26:53,307 --> 00:26:54,537
It involved panic attacks.
596
00:26:54,597 --> 00:26:58,767
It involved just being generally
unhappy and early in the career,
597
00:26:58,767 --> 00:27:02,667
when you're building a practice, you
work long hours, but you're into it.
598
00:27:02,667 --> 00:27:02,757
Mm-hmm.
599
00:27:02,972 --> 00:27:05,187
And you, you just, you
care about your cases.
600
00:27:05,187 --> 00:27:05,697
You wanna fight.
601
00:27:05,727 --> 00:27:08,097
If you're a good attorney, you
wanna fight for your clients.
602
00:27:08,097 --> 00:27:12,177
You personalize it oftentimes in family
court way more than you should, and it's
603
00:27:12,177 --> 00:27:14,757
unhealthy, but you work those long hours.
604
00:27:14,757 --> 00:27:16,257
That's not what was getting to me.
605
00:27:16,257 --> 00:27:19,467
It was, it was a lot of what
we, we are talking about.
606
00:27:19,467 --> 00:27:25,347
And I pulled back further because
I built a big practice in, in, you
607
00:27:25,347 --> 00:27:28,257
know, six offices in five states
and we were growing very quickly.
608
00:27:28,677 --> 00:27:30,327
That part was very satisfying.
609
00:27:30,387 --> 00:27:30,747
Christine: Yeah.
610
00:27:30,807 --> 00:27:36,792
Hugh: But the times I was spending
in court, you were just there,
611
00:27:36,797 --> 00:27:40,527
there were a lot of problems for
me, part of it was this breakdown
612
00:27:40,527 --> 00:27:42,177
that we discuss on this podcast.
613
00:27:42,177 --> 00:27:42,297
Mm-hmm.
614
00:27:42,627 --> 00:27:48,197
Another part to me was , the law
office model, I think doesn't.
615
00:27:48,617 --> 00:27:50,297
Serve clients very well.
616
00:27:50,327 --> 00:27:53,927
I think the legal industry is broken
in a lot of ways and something I will
617
00:27:53,927 --> 00:27:59,717
discuss more on my personal podcast, but
I think there needs to be innovation,
618
00:27:59,717 --> 00:28:01,097
there needs to be some change in it.
619
00:28:01,097 --> 00:28:05,247
And I sort of hit the 20 year point
and reflected back do I want another
620
00:28:05,247 --> 00:28:06,927
20 years of doing the same thing?
621
00:28:06,927 --> 00:28:10,257
Do you making a lot of, you know,
I was making very good money.
622
00:28:10,287 --> 00:28:11,607
Yeah, I was at a great stage in my career.
623
00:28:11,607 --> 00:28:15,417
I wasn't having to practice
day in, day out, but I just,
624
00:28:15,477 --> 00:28:16,617
I wanted something different.
625
00:28:16,617 --> 00:28:17,697
I wanted to make a difference.
626
00:28:17,877 --> 00:28:23,307
Christine: So let me ask you a question,
and this is kind of heavy, but if the
627
00:28:23,307 --> 00:28:27,177
judges weren't how the judges are,
would you have stayed longer, you think?
628
00:28:29,397 --> 00:28:30,327
Hugh: It's hard to tell.
629
00:28:30,447 --> 00:28:34,917
Yeah, I think, I think a lot of it was
just, there's a significant point in my
630
00:28:34,917 --> 00:28:39,387
career as it 20 years and I just sort of
had to decide if things were changing or
631
00:28:39,387 --> 00:28:41,277
anything interesting was happening in it.
632
00:28:41,997 --> 00:28:45,327
I think I would've been
in a more optimistic place
633
00:28:45,327 --> 00:28:46,112
when making that decision.
634
00:28:46,877 --> 00:28:49,007
I think I came to that decision,
635
00:28:51,587 --> 00:28:55,937
that inflection point, feeling
like I was working just in a broken
636
00:28:55,937 --> 00:28:58,007
system from every single direction.
637
00:28:58,007 --> 00:28:58,097
Mm-hmm.
638
00:28:58,367 --> 00:29:01,277
And it felt you felt kind of defeated.
639
00:29:01,277 --> 00:29:01,337
Yeah.
640
00:29:01,367 --> 00:29:04,787
Like you just weren't able to make
the difference that you wanted to?
641
00:29:05,327 --> 00:29:06,952
Yeah, so I don't know.
642
00:29:07,002 --> 00:29:10,452
It's very hard to say if it was
different, but I think if I was
643
00:29:10,452 --> 00:29:13,962
able to feel I was making the
difference in clients' lives that I
644
00:29:13,962 --> 00:29:16,212
felt like I was making 10 years ago.
645
00:29:16,272 --> 00:29:16,947
Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
646
00:29:17,052 --> 00:29:17,112
I
647
00:29:17,112 --> 00:29:18,372
Hugh: met, I might have stayed there.
648
00:29:18,372 --> 00:29:20,652
That different level of
satisfaction may have been there.
649
00:29:21,012 --> 00:29:25,062
Christine: And I think it's because you
used to, I mean, I love going to court.
650
00:29:25,092 --> 00:29:27,042
Like actually when we did our
walkthrough the other day, you were
651
00:29:27,042 --> 00:29:28,452
like, I don't miss this at all.
652
00:29:28,452 --> 00:29:30,372
And I'm like, I miss, I miss so much.
653
00:29:30,372 --> 00:29:34,992
Like I really do miss practicing,
but I couldn't go to court.
654
00:29:34,992 --> 00:29:39,612
Like I knew every single time I went
to court that it was gonna be, for lack
655
00:29:39,612 --> 00:29:41,082
of a better term, just a shit show.
656
00:29:41,082 --> 00:29:42,342
There would be no order.
657
00:29:42,342 --> 00:29:43,302
It would either be.
658
00:29:43,687 --> 00:29:48,007
A continuance would be granted
without it anyone asking for it.
659
00:29:48,457 --> 00:29:48,517
Yeah.
660
00:29:48,517 --> 00:29:51,367
People would be 20, 30, 45 minutes late.
661
00:29:51,367 --> 00:29:55,637
The judge hadn't read the motion,
or you would be yelled at.
662
00:29:55,637 --> 00:30:00,557
Or even worse, it would be like
just you go down a rabbit hole of
663
00:30:00,557 --> 00:30:03,437
something that wasn't even before
the court, and somehow get an order
664
00:30:03,647 --> 00:30:06,917
of something that had nothing to do
with what we'd prepared for in court.
665
00:30:06,947 --> 00:30:09,527
And it just, you couldn't
prepare your clients.
666
00:30:09,807 --> 00:30:10,332
And I, Dr.
667
00:30:10,412 --> 00:30:13,917
I dreaded going to court
with every ounce of my being.
668
00:30:13,917 --> 00:30:13,977
Yeah.
669
00:30:14,007 --> 00:30:15,897
Because I knew one.
670
00:30:15,897 --> 00:30:18,627
I mean, you can't prepare
and be productive in that
671
00:30:18,627 --> 00:30:20,337
environment, and that's our job.
672
00:30:20,367 --> 00:30:23,997
And two, you're gonna have to go out and
have a conversation with your clients.
673
00:30:23,997 --> 00:30:27,627
Like, if I could record some of the
conversations that I had after we left
674
00:30:27,627 --> 00:30:31,797
the courtroom, it would be a TV sitcom.
675
00:30:32,037 --> 00:30:35,037
Hugh: I started that conversation
while we were sitting in the courtroom.
676
00:30:35,037 --> 00:30:39,327
I found that passing notes back
and forth, or leaning back and
677
00:30:39,327 --> 00:30:40,827
whispering just to get ahead of.
678
00:30:41,487 --> 00:30:44,157
This is not, you know, yes,
this is different than what
679
00:30:44,157 --> 00:30:45,057
I told you was gonna happen.
680
00:30:45,057 --> 00:30:46,767
Here's why it's different.
681
00:30:46,767 --> 00:30:48,477
And you know, sort of
to prime them for it.
682
00:30:48,482 --> 00:30:48,562
Mm-hmm.
683
00:30:48,642 --> 00:30:52,407
Because I wanted them to pay attention to
the next, you know, to take very seriously
684
00:30:52,407 --> 00:30:56,307
the next things that happened and not be
too distracted by something just out of
685
00:30:56,307 --> 00:31:00,522
the ordinary that, that would happen that
was not proper earlier in the hearing.
686
00:31:00,957 --> 00:31:03,837
Christine: I mean, it would
be a regular occurrence.
687
00:31:04,027 --> 00:31:07,597
And this is kind of off topic a
little bit, I guess it's not, but I
688
00:31:07,597 --> 00:31:09,217
get a lot of calls from attorneys.
689
00:31:09,217 --> 00:31:12,477
I think last week I got 21
calls from different attorneys.
690
00:31:12,837 --> 00:31:17,067
And I had one of the attorneys be
like, oh my gosh, I told you not
691
00:31:17,067 --> 00:31:18,717
to say anything about something.
692
00:31:19,137 --> 00:31:20,997
I'm like, I didn't say
anything about something.
693
00:31:20,997 --> 00:31:24,767
And they were like, I watched
your TikTok about how an FOC
694
00:31:24,767 --> 00:31:26,057
didn't meet with a client.
695
00:31:26,087 --> 00:31:29,087
I'm like, honey bunny, bless your heart.
696
00:31:29,297 --> 00:31:30,347
That's happening.
697
00:31:30,677 --> 00:31:32,117
That's happening in this moment.
698
00:31:32,147 --> 00:31:32,237
Oh,
699
00:31:32,237 --> 00:31:32,507
Hugh: yeah.
700
00:31:32,567 --> 00:31:34,187
All over the place.
701
00:31:34,192 --> 00:31:34,472
Right,
702
00:31:34,472 --> 00:31:34,752
Christine: right, right.
703
00:31:34,952 --> 00:31:35,072
I
704
00:31:35,072 --> 00:31:36,352
Hugh: mean, I, it Oh.
705
00:31:37,142 --> 00:31:42,552
I would regularly, very regularly
subpoena the billing records from
706
00:31:42,552 --> 00:31:47,892
the FOC before my hearings, just so
that I could substantiate from their
707
00:31:47,892 --> 00:31:51,612
billing records that they did not have
meetings to prepare for that hearing.
708
00:31:51,702 --> 00:31:51,882
And so,
709
00:31:52,992 --> 00:31:54,672
Christine: FOCs are investigative
bodies for the court, their
710
00:31:54,672 --> 00:31:57,462
attorneys, but a subpoena is a court
order, and you're entitled to that.
711
00:31:57,492 --> 00:31:57,822
Right.
712
00:31:57,822 --> 00:31:58,062
And
713
00:31:58,062 --> 00:32:00,492
Hugh: people treated me like it
was the worst thing in the world.
714
00:32:00,492 --> 00:32:01,987
I was Whose people FOCs.
715
00:32:02,417 --> 00:32:06,017
Sometimes the courts when I would try to
enforce those because they oftentimes were
716
00:32:06,017 --> 00:32:09,737
ignored or told that I'm not answering
that I don't ha I'm a court appointed
717
00:32:09,927 --> 00:32:11,807
FOC I don't have to answer your subpoena.
718
00:32:12,167 --> 00:32:13,007
Oh, yeah, you do.
719
00:32:13,007 --> 00:32:13,817
You're a witness.
720
00:32:13,847 --> 00:32:15,707
You're an expert witness in this case.
721
00:32:16,007 --> 00:32:19,007
And it, it was sometimes hard
to get judges to enforce those.
722
00:32:19,007 --> 00:32:22,157
They, they always did to their credit,
but it, it was very unusual to be
723
00:32:22,157 --> 00:32:23,537
doing that and people would get mad.
724
00:32:23,537 --> 00:32:26,177
But it was very important
because I would say, okay.
725
00:32:26,177 --> 00:32:28,337
You say you met with your clients.
726
00:32:28,337 --> 00:32:30,257
You say they provided
this , amount of information.
727
00:32:30,257 --> 00:32:31,397
I'm looking at your billing records.
728
00:32:31,802 --> 00:32:35,132
You didn't bill anybody for meeting
with a client on those days.
729
00:32:35,132 --> 00:32:36,542
Could you be wrong about the days?
730
00:32:36,722 --> 00:32:39,332
Can you check your phone and
check your calendar to see what
731
00:32:39,332 --> 00:32:40,562
days you had those meetings?
732
00:32:40,652 --> 00:32:42,752
And most of the time when I would ask
that, they wouldn't look at their phone.
733
00:32:42,752 --> 00:32:44,732
They would just kinda look at
me just like, yeah, I'm caught.
734
00:32:44,762 --> 00:32:45,032
What?
735
00:32:45,032 --> 00:32:45,782
What's gonna happen?
736
00:32:45,842 --> 00:32:47,342
Christine: So they were
saying they met with the kids.
737
00:32:47,347 --> 00:32:47,517
Oh, yeah.
738
00:32:47,517 --> 00:32:49,383
Hugh: And hadn't, oh yeah.
739
00:32:50,342 --> 00:32:53,282
Christine: I mean that's the kind of
thing, like I just did a TikTok about
740
00:32:53,462 --> 00:32:58,442
how if your GAL or your FOC is not
meeting with the child or children,
741
00:32:58,442 --> 00:32:59,792
it should be reported to the judge.
742
00:33:00,102 --> 00:33:01,482
And I think that goes without saying.
743
00:33:01,482 --> 00:33:03,432
Now, I don't know that the
judges will do anything.
744
00:33:03,432 --> 00:33:03,612
In the
745
00:33:03,612 --> 00:33:07,422
Hugh: instance that I'm thinking of,
the judge ruled strictly along the
746
00:33:07,422 --> 00:33:11,532
lines of the FOC report, despite the
fact that never met, despite the fact
747
00:33:11,532 --> 00:33:16,112
that I think had not returned a call or
an email to my client in four months.
748
00:33:16,562 --> 00:33:18,182
And the ruling came out.
749
00:33:18,857 --> 00:33:21,767
Exactly as the FOC report
went, now it got overturned.
750
00:33:22,097 --> 00:33:25,847
So, but you know, the client
had to wait almost two years.
751
00:33:26,147 --> 00:33:29,597
And meanwhile what we were talking about
is the suspension of his parenting time.
752
00:33:29,597 --> 00:33:31,352
So during that two years while
we waited for the appeals.
753
00:33:32,072 --> 00:33:34,527
No unsupervised parenting time for kids.
754
00:33:34,527 --> 00:33:35,472
And the expert witness hadn't
755
00:33:35,472 --> 00:33:36,822
Christine: talked to the client Correct.
756
00:33:36,822 --> 00:33:38,412
Or talked to the person for four months
757
00:33:38,442 --> 00:33:38,622
Hugh: Yep.
758
00:33:38,862 --> 00:33:41,742
And actually admitted that all of
the information he got was from
759
00:33:41,792 --> 00:33:43,202
, the therapist, not the children.
760
00:33:44,642 --> 00:33:45,362
Christine: My word.
761
00:33:45,362 --> 00:33:48,962
And I think talking about some reform
stuff, you know, we can really,
762
00:33:49,232 --> 00:33:52,602
I think we need to change rule
six which is a family court rule.
763
00:33:52,602 --> 00:33:53,917
But I do think that talk,
talk about rule six.
764
00:33:53,982 --> 00:33:58,982
Well, rule six is the appointment
of third party individuals that get
765
00:33:59,152 --> 00:34:01,012
immunity and they're court appointed.
766
00:34:01,012 --> 00:34:03,382
They get billed a, they bill
hourly, blah, blah, blah.
767
00:34:03,382 --> 00:34:04,492
Cannot speak today.
768
00:34:04,712 --> 00:34:07,382
A friend of the courts, guardian
ad litems, custodial evaluators,
769
00:34:07,382 --> 00:34:08,672
parenting coordinators.
770
00:34:08,911 --> 00:34:11,371
We need to have much
tighter regulation on that.
771
00:34:11,431 --> 00:34:15,902
And I think it should be standard
operating procedure for the FOCs to
772
00:34:15,902 --> 00:34:18,752
include their bill in their report.
773
00:34:18,752 --> 00:34:18,842
Sure.
774
00:34:18,842 --> 00:34:22,052
And I think that's, without
question, something the legislator
775
00:34:22,052 --> 00:34:22,803
has the authority to do.
776
00:34:22,862 --> 00:34:23,072
Yeah.
777
00:34:23,101 --> 00:34:25,922
Hugh: Well, I mean, you
know that we have rules.
778
00:34:26,567 --> 00:34:30,107
Very specifically about FOC reports that
say they have to file reports and they
779
00:34:30,107 --> 00:34:31,757
have to do it 10 days ahead of time.
780
00:34:31,757 --> 00:34:35,536
They have to give it copies to everyone
and make their file accessible.
781
00:34:35,956 --> 00:34:38,447
How often was that happening
when you left the practice?
782
00:34:38,452 --> 00:34:39,369
0, 0,
783
00:34:39,369 --> 00:34:39,827
Christine: 0.
784
00:34:39,827 --> 00:34:40,007
Need that.
785
00:34:40,007 --> 00:34:40,397
How many
786
00:34:40,397 --> 00:34:44,536
Hugh: times in the last week have
you heard people talk about cases or
787
00:34:44,536 --> 00:34:48,917
you've seen people arguing motions
where there's been no report filed
788
00:34:48,917 --> 00:34:52,487
whatsoever in violation of the
rules and nothing done about it.
789
00:34:52,607 --> 00:34:56,357
Christine: I think when I told you that
the attorney was like, you told my story,
790
00:34:56,387 --> 00:35:00,317
and I was like, I have 14 examples.
791
00:35:00,407 --> 00:35:00,497
Mm-hmm.
792
00:35:00,637 --> 00:35:05,957
And calls this week of either FOCs
or GALS, that would include both not
793
00:35:05,957 --> 00:35:09,977
having met with the child or children
in relation to that hearing coming up.
794
00:35:10,007 --> 00:35:13,787
And that's the other weird thing that
GS and FOCs will do, is they'll meet
795
00:35:13,787 --> 00:35:17,027
with the kid like September, 2021.
796
00:35:17,027 --> 00:35:18,527
They'll be like, of
course I met with a kid.
797
00:35:18,527 --> 00:35:21,407
It's like, well, it is July, 2025.
798
00:35:21,827 --> 00:35:22,247
Right.
799
00:35:22,247 --> 00:35:22,817
You know what I mean?
800
00:35:22,817 --> 00:35:28,097
Like you, I just don't understand
how judges, how they don't see it,
801
00:35:28,727 --> 00:35:28,877
Hugh: do
802
00:35:28,877 --> 00:35:29,177
Christine: you?
803
00:35:30,137 --> 00:35:33,977
Hugh: Oh I know that they see it,
but they, I, from my experience
804
00:35:34,097 --> 00:35:37,337
is that you have this small group
of people that do this work for
805
00:35:37,337 --> 00:35:42,437
the courts, and they are such an
indisposable part of the court system.
806
00:35:42,437 --> 00:35:46,257
And I think that, you know, from what
I've, I've I've heard nationwide,
807
00:35:46,647 --> 00:35:52,167
they're part of most family court
systems and the judges have gone on to
808
00:35:52,227 --> 00:35:54,657
rely on them to do part of their work.
809
00:35:55,137 --> 00:35:59,247
And so they look the other
way when those things happen.
810
00:35:59,247 --> 00:36:01,137
Because what can they do?
811
00:36:01,137 --> 00:36:02,727
Stop appointing this person.
812
00:36:02,727 --> 00:36:07,257
It's, it's not like every attorney is
holding themselves out there to do it.
813
00:36:07,257 --> 00:36:11,547
Now there are court systems, I have
colleagues and friends that practice
814
00:36:11,547 --> 00:36:16,017
in, in, in jurisdictions where everyone
is one big pool of attorneys and you
815
00:36:16,017 --> 00:36:18,717
get appointed to do that job and there
are guidelines to it and you get in
816
00:36:18,717 --> 00:36:20,037
trouble if you don't do your job.
817
00:36:20,277 --> 00:36:22,227
So they have a large enough pool.
818
00:36:22,377 --> 00:36:27,237
Now, when you're dealing with family
law cases, do you want to have GALs or
819
00:36:27,267 --> 00:36:29,967
FOCs that haven't been through training
or anything that, you know, you've
820
00:36:29,967 --> 00:36:34,227
got other issues with that, but what
we're really seeing is contracting
821
00:36:34,227 --> 00:36:36,567
out fact finding for the judges.
822
00:36:37,047 --> 00:36:43,757
And , you can sit in a hearing and you can
prove on the record that the FOC didn't,
823
00:36:43,877 --> 00:36:47,767
didn't speak to the children, only got
input from one side of the case over the
824
00:36:47,767 --> 00:36:49,567
last four months prior to that hearing.
825
00:36:50,017 --> 00:36:54,457
And you, I just regularly would
see whatever the FOC went anyway.
826
00:36:54,607 --> 00:36:58,717
The judge didn't make any findings about
them not doing their job or that their.
827
00:36:59,542 --> 00:37:02,302
What they reported to the court might
be old 'cause they haven't spoken to
828
00:37:02,302 --> 00:37:06,202
one side or the children in four months,
and they would rule just on what the
829
00:37:06,202 --> 00:37:10,402
FOC said because it makes their life
easier, the person they appointed.
830
00:37:10,732 --> 00:37:15,862
And they know that most of the time, if
you rely on what an expert says in court,
831
00:37:16,132 --> 00:37:17,692
you're probably not gonna be overturned.
832
00:37:18,172 --> 00:37:21,292
Christine: Which gets to the bigger
picture of just the nefarious
833
00:37:21,292 --> 00:37:26,422
cycle of all of it, which is why
anyone that participates in that
834
00:37:26,422 --> 00:37:31,822
knowingly, I mean, it's got an aspect
of it that feels, I don't wanna
835
00:37:31,822 --> 00:37:33,562
use the word criminal, obviously.
836
00:37:33,562 --> 00:37:37,162
I mean, some people may, I mean, if
you're talking about like the mafia or
837
00:37:37,162 --> 00:37:42,532
something, some people may, but it feels
like a machine that is designed to protect
838
00:37:42,532 --> 00:37:46,852
the people within it without any regard
for how it affects families or children.
839
00:37:46,882 --> 00:37:47,212
Hugh: Sure.
840
00:37:47,272 --> 00:37:47,992
No I agree.
841
00:37:47,992 --> 00:37:51,292
And one of the bigger examples, I mean we
talk a lot about the jurisdiction where
842
00:37:51,292 --> 00:37:55,632
we practiced in largely Jefferson County,
but I think, from people reaching out
843
00:37:55,632 --> 00:37:59,932
to us is clearly applies everywhere or
it applies a lot of places nationwide.
844
00:38:00,322 --> 00:38:00,622
Christine: Yep.
845
00:38:00,802 --> 00:38:04,042
Hugh: We have statutes that talk
about if there is dependency,
846
00:38:04,042 --> 00:38:05,392
neglect, or abuse of a child.
847
00:38:05,662 --> 00:38:08,302
The case has to go through certain
steps and has to go through
848
00:38:08,302 --> 00:38:09,982
during a specific period of time.
849
00:38:10,852 --> 00:38:13,102
There are ways to waive
that period of time.
850
00:38:13,312 --> 00:38:17,422
But there are very specific requirements
for waiving that time period and
851
00:38:17,422 --> 00:38:18,682
moving forward in a certain way.
852
00:38:19,222 --> 00:38:23,482
It is such regular practice for
things to go three to four times
853
00:38:23,482 --> 00:38:28,072
longer than the statutory period with
no explanation to the parties who
854
00:38:28,072 --> 00:38:30,352
have to waive those time periods.
855
00:38:30,712 --> 00:38:36,352
And when I've raised it in my practice,
I've always been told, you know,
856
00:38:36,352 --> 00:38:37,972
that's just the way we do it here.
857
00:38:38,002 --> 00:38:38,242
Yep.
858
00:38:38,332 --> 00:38:40,942
And you just hear that phrase made me.
859
00:38:41,272 --> 00:38:44,272
More upset than anything I heard
during my whole practice where there's
860
00:38:44,272 --> 00:38:48,472
something that's so clearly against
a statute violating people's rights,
861
00:38:48,802 --> 00:38:51,262
but it's just the way we do it here.
862
00:38:51,292 --> 00:38:51,472
Christine: Yep.
863
00:38:51,682 --> 00:38:53,782
Hugh: And it's the same
people that would say it.
864
00:38:53,782 --> 00:38:56,752
It's the same people that are
utilized by the courts over and over,
865
00:38:56,752 --> 00:38:58,012
and you're right, it's a machine.
866
00:38:58,042 --> 00:38:58,132
Mm-hmm.
867
00:38:58,372 --> 00:39:02,692
It's a system, and it no longer serves
the purpose that it's there for and
868
00:39:02,692 --> 00:39:06,172
it doesn't serve the children that
it's there to protect, specifically
869
00:39:06,742 --> 00:39:11,062
dependency, neglect, and abuse cases
are there to protect children's safety.
870
00:39:11,122 --> 00:39:11,212
Mm-hmm.
871
00:39:11,482 --> 00:39:15,292
And when you just start coming up with
your own rules and your own practices
872
00:39:15,292 --> 00:39:19,492
for convenience rather than for the
protection of the child, you're no longer.
873
00:39:19,912 --> 00:39:25,222
Carrying out what the statute established
jurisdiction in that court for
874
00:39:25,342 --> 00:39:25,912
Christine: a hundred percent.
875
00:39:26,212 --> 00:39:29,152
And that's where it just gets
weird to me because we wanna
876
00:39:29,152 --> 00:39:30,742
talk about all these good judges.
877
00:39:31,022 --> 00:39:35,432
And again, there are great judges, but
the fact that they know this is happening
878
00:39:35,762 --> 00:39:40,412
and still pose for photos with them or
still like their social medias, you know,
879
00:39:40,412 --> 00:39:44,752
I was even talking there was something
that came up with one judge and it was
880
00:39:44,752 --> 00:39:48,772
so frustrating because I know that this
judge, how one particular judge may
881
00:39:48,772 --> 00:39:51,232
feel about the way other judges behave.
882
00:39:51,532 --> 00:39:56,152
But, you know, posting with
them doing that stuff is, is
883
00:39:56,152 --> 00:39:57,622
condoning it, in my opinion.
884
00:39:57,622 --> 00:39:58,042
Is it?
885
00:39:58,192 --> 00:39:58,462
Yeah.
886
00:39:58,517 --> 00:39:59,822
Hugh: I, I, if you know what's going on.
887
00:39:59,882 --> 00:40:00,123
Yeah, yeah.
888
00:40:00,422 --> 00:40:00,722
If you know
889
00:40:00,722 --> 00:40:01,232
Christine: what's going on.
890
00:40:01,292 --> 00:40:01,502
Hugh: Yeah.
891
00:40:01,502 --> 00:40:04,292
I mean, I, I've had
conversations with some judges.
892
00:40:04,967 --> 00:40:08,117
About the behavior of others, and
they have done things been behind
893
00:40:08,117 --> 00:40:10,847
the scenes, but speaking to the right
people to try to get things changed.
894
00:40:10,847 --> 00:40:15,397
Yeah, I know a particular judge this
is probably 10, 15 years ago, who had
895
00:40:15,817 --> 00:40:20,887
her computer screen taken off the bench
because another judge received too many
896
00:40:20,887 --> 00:40:24,697
complaints from attorneys that judge
was shopping online during hearings.
897
00:40:25,027 --> 00:40:27,167
So I know some judges do speak out.
898
00:40:27,227 --> 00:40:30,817
My question is, again, I think we
covered this in, or we talked about
899
00:40:30,817 --> 00:40:33,067
this briefly at another podcast.
900
00:40:34,087 --> 00:40:38,287
If I'm two floors up from you, you're
a judge that's acting improperly.
901
00:40:38,347 --> 00:40:41,167
I am doing my job and
sitting up on a docket.
902
00:40:42,757 --> 00:40:47,377
, How do you know how someone is behaving
on a very specific closed door docket?
903
00:40:47,437 --> 00:40:50,167
How do you know that your
colleagues are behaving that way?
904
00:40:50,167 --> 00:40:53,587
And I think, oh, part of what I want to do
here is make sure that everyone knows it.
905
00:40:53,642 --> 00:40:54,092
Yeah, yeah.
906
00:40:54,092 --> 00:40:55,537
And then maybe people can
change their behavior.
907
00:40:55,927 --> 00:40:58,327
Christine: But I just think
that it's one big club.
908
00:40:58,327 --> 00:40:59,452
We ain't in it.
909
00:40:59,827 --> 00:41:03,427
And I don't understand why
they wanna be in it so bad.
910
00:41:03,427 --> 00:41:07,987
Like you are gonna sell your
soul for $160,000 a year.
911
00:41:08,377 --> 00:41:10,177
Hugh: No, I don't believe that at all.
912
00:41:10,177 --> 00:41:14,057
I think people, I think a lot of
people, just like in any political
913
00:41:14,057 --> 00:41:15,557
position, go there for power.
914
00:41:15,557 --> 00:41:17,447
But I think there's plenty
of people that want to do.
915
00:41:18,212 --> 00:41:20,882
Do right by their community and
do a good job in the community.
916
00:41:20,882 --> 00:41:25,382
And I've seen some judges who just
genuinely want to get it right to the
917
00:41:25,382 --> 00:41:28,502
point where they also ignore the law.
918
00:41:29,352 --> 00:41:32,652
I've seen issues there, but it's
just, I've never had any doubt where,
919
00:41:32,712 --> 00:41:34,272
why those judges work in those jobs.
920
00:41:34,272 --> 00:41:35,062
Well, intentioned
921
00:41:35,082 --> 00:41:35,352
Christine: right.
922
00:41:35,352 --> 00:41:36,132
But what I'm saying is.
923
00:41:36,662 --> 00:41:40,142
The ones like we have this very clear,
like why I left the practice mm-hmm.
924
00:41:40,382 --> 00:41:43,322
Was because of one particular
judge, an ex parte situation.
925
00:41:43,562 --> 00:41:48,122
Why I got on social media is because
of what I refer to as the TikTok judge.
926
00:41:48,362 --> 00:41:53,552
But the backstory there is the judge
had a set up on the bench where
927
00:41:53,552 --> 00:41:58,232
she could secretly selfie record
herself during court proceedings.
928
00:41:58,232 --> 00:42:00,842
Now we're unclear of how
often this was happening.
929
00:42:00,842 --> 00:42:03,752
I think it was happening much
more than what she posted.
930
00:42:04,082 --> 00:42:08,942
But there are pro se people coming,
crying about a domestic violence
931
00:42:08,942 --> 00:42:12,092
scenario, talking about their children.
932
00:42:12,402 --> 00:42:19,332
And she uploaded it to TikTok, hashtag
TikTok Judge, hashtag Domestic Violence.
933
00:42:19,632 --> 00:42:23,802
And I thought, surely to Christ
and all the things, this will be
934
00:42:23,802 --> 00:42:27,192
enough to have her held accountable,
sent it to all the judges.
935
00:42:27,402 --> 00:42:30,252
I don't know a single judge
in Louisville that hasn't seen
936
00:42:30,252 --> 00:42:33,552
my post about this and yet.
937
00:42:33,922 --> 00:42:35,512
That judge is still on TikTok today.
938
00:42:35,512 --> 00:42:38,782
She's still on the bench, and the
other judges associate with her.
939
00:42:38,872 --> 00:42:39,352
Why?
940
00:42:40,412 --> 00:42:41,132
Hugh: That's a good question.
941
00:42:41,182 --> 00:42:45,952
I, if I were on the bench and
that was happening, I don't think
942
00:42:45,952 --> 00:42:49,612
I could, I, I don't think that I
could handle that the same way.
943
00:42:49,612 --> 00:42:51,532
They, I just, I wouldn't
be able to, there's
944
00:42:51,532 --> 00:42:54,532
Christine: never a scenario in
which I would, even if I was friends
945
00:42:54,532 --> 00:42:59,882
with someone, I would be like,
listen, Lizzie, you crossed a line.
946
00:43:00,062 --> 00:43:02,012
You can't be in charge of that anymore.
947
00:43:02,012 --> 00:43:04,027
Anyone that thinks that's an
inappropriate, the conversation
948
00:43:04,027 --> 00:43:06,392
Hugh: would go, what the
hell were you thinking?
949
00:43:06,572 --> 00:43:08,252
That's how the conversation would go.
950
00:43:08,252 --> 00:43:14,372
Like, how and what planet would it be
acceptable for you to be hearing someone's
951
00:43:14,372 --> 00:43:18,632
domestic violence case that affects crying
custody and affects their children and
952
00:43:18,632 --> 00:43:21,602
for you to be live like, like recording?
953
00:43:22,187 --> 00:43:25,787
For your TikTok channel and
using that for self-promotion.
954
00:43:25,817 --> 00:43:29,357
Christine: Yeah, it's
insanity on every level.
955
00:43:29,357 --> 00:43:29,417
Yeah.
956
00:43:29,717 --> 00:43:33,767
And I just think that that's the same
thing, like if you watch like George
957
00:43:33,767 --> 00:43:39,497
Floyd for example, it's like the cop
that actually committed the M word.
958
00:43:39,747 --> 00:43:42,237
But there are three other
law enforcement sitting there
959
00:43:42,237 --> 00:43:44,307
watching, not doing anything.
960
00:43:44,517 --> 00:43:47,907
And it's like, you wanna look at how many
times was that cop, you know, did that
961
00:43:47,907 --> 00:43:50,317
cop do something that was out of bounds?
962
00:43:50,317 --> 00:43:53,467
And the other cops are like, oh, well,
I mean, that's just my cop buddy and
963
00:43:53,677 --> 00:43:55,147
oh, Christine, you don't understand.
964
00:43:55,147 --> 00:43:58,627
We were at a Christmas party and we had
a cocktail together, so we took a selfie.
965
00:43:58,927 --> 00:44:01,027
It's like there has to be accountability.
966
00:44:01,027 --> 00:44:06,367
The people you associate with and the
behavior that you're well aware of, that
967
00:44:06,397 --> 00:44:11,557
you still continue to associate with that
person, in my opinion, almost you're more
968
00:44:11,617 --> 00:44:13,687
culpable than the person that did it.
969
00:44:13,867 --> 00:44:14,347
Hugh: Well.
970
00:44:15,097 --> 00:44:18,007
There weren't other judges sitting in
the courtroom when that happened, but we
971
00:44:18,007 --> 00:44:19,897
do know, they all know that it happened.
972
00:44:19,987 --> 00:44:20,077
Yeah.
973
00:44:20,082 --> 00:44:20,252
Christine: Now,
974
00:44:20,317 --> 00:44:24,337
Hugh: now do we know whether
someone spoke to the bar, anything's
975
00:44:24,337 --> 00:44:25,537
been done behind the scenes?
976
00:44:25,537 --> 00:44:28,717
Because, you know, as well as I do
that these things are handled behind
977
00:44:28,717 --> 00:44:32,867
the scenes, whether it's attorneys
or judges the regulation of it, the,
978
00:44:33,647 --> 00:44:39,527
you know, any changes, redirection,
any you know, polite punishment
979
00:44:39,527 --> 00:44:41,117
that's private, all of that stuff.
980
00:44:41,117 --> 00:44:42,767
Handles is handled behind the scenes.
981
00:44:42,767 --> 00:44:48,497
So we can't know whether colleagues went
and said, what the hell are you doing?
982
00:44:48,977 --> 00:44:49,187
Christine: Right.
983
00:44:49,287 --> 00:44:53,882
But we do know the judges still post
with her, which to me is just, I don't
984
00:44:53,882 --> 00:44:58,832
understand if there's 39 of 'em, why
38 of 'em haven't gone to her and been
985
00:44:58,832 --> 00:45:01,442
like, listen, we got a good gig here.
986
00:45:01,592 --> 00:45:02,042
Okay, yeah.
987
00:45:02,342 --> 00:45:07,067
We're not in a courtroom at one 30 on
a Tuesday and you done pissed Christine
988
00:45:07,067 --> 00:45:11,342
Miller off, so could you please just
get off TikTok for like one week?
989
00:45:11,432 --> 00:45:11,642
Hugh: Yeah.
990
00:45:11,882 --> 00:45:12,362
Well, wouldn't you do
991
00:45:12,362 --> 00:45:12,692
Christine: that?
992
00:45:13,112 --> 00:45:13,532
Hugh: Maybe.
993
00:45:13,922 --> 00:45:16,892
I mean, I think I, I would, yes, I would.
994
00:45:16,892 --> 00:45:20,222
Personally, I would say you, you're
bringing heat on all of us and
995
00:45:20,222 --> 00:45:21,542
you're making everybody look bad.
996
00:45:21,962 --> 00:45:23,192
Christine: And what you did was terrible.
997
00:45:23,192 --> 00:45:23,972
Unequivocally.
998
00:45:24,212 --> 00:45:25,952
Hugh: Well, yeah, yeah, yeah.
999
00:45:25,952 --> 00:45:26,792
No, absolutely.
1000
00:45:26,792 --> 00:45:31,132
But the continue there, there
are rules, for instance, that,
1001
00:45:31,607 --> 00:45:33,352
that say that you shouldn't be.
1002
00:45:34,822 --> 00:45:38,152
Promoting one political party or
another, or political candidate.
1003
00:45:38,152 --> 00:45:41,662
You shouldn't be online attending
political events because your job as
1004
00:45:41,662 --> 00:45:47,282
a judge to, is to be impartial and
to seem like an impartial arbiter
1005
00:45:47,372 --> 00:45:48,602
of whatever's in front of you.
1006
00:45:48,602 --> 00:45:48,722
Mm-hmm.
1007
00:45:49,412 --> 00:45:55,202
I think for the same reason there has to,
I mean, I, I think you cross a line , with
1008
00:45:55,202 --> 00:45:57,092
a lot of the social media that we see.
1009
00:45:57,362 --> 00:45:57,452
Oh yeah.
1010
00:45:57,452 --> 00:46:03,962
I think judges accounts that use the
name judge in the account should by
1011
00:46:03,962 --> 00:46:08,942
the public, be viewed as official
accounts, even if they are not set up
1012
00:46:08,942 --> 00:46:12,612
by, you know, the state or the city or
the county or , the federal government.
1013
00:46:13,002 --> 00:46:16,272
If you're holding yourself out
as Judge Soandso Absolutely.
1014
00:46:16,272 --> 00:46:20,892
And you're posting pictures of
you at lunch with attorneys.
1015
00:46:21,942 --> 00:46:25,632
Then clients on the other
side of cases are watching.
1016
00:46:25,662 --> 00:46:28,062
They look at everything
that their judge does.
1017
00:46:28,092 --> 00:46:30,462
They look up what the
opposing counsel does.
1018
00:46:30,467 --> 00:46:30,647
Mm-hmm.
1019
00:46:30,762 --> 00:46:34,032
They watch of course, what their,
the other litigant does, and
1020
00:46:34,032 --> 00:46:38,772
when they see a judge, you know,
having drinks and celebrating with
1021
00:46:38,802 --> 00:46:40,422
the other attorney on the case.
1022
00:46:40,707 --> 00:46:44,937
There is simply no way in the world that
they can think that you are impartial.
1023
00:46:44,997 --> 00:46:45,537
Christine: Exactly.
1024
00:46:45,537 --> 00:46:46,347
I couldn't agree more.
1025
00:46:46,347 --> 00:46:48,357
Hugh: And, and do can judges have friends?
1026
00:46:48,357 --> 00:46:49,107
Absolutely.
1027
00:46:49,107 --> 00:46:51,357
And all of that stuff has to
exist and you have to do your job.
1028
00:46:51,357 --> 00:46:55,967
But the appearance of impartiality is
an important part of the the canon of.
1029
00:46:56,377 --> 00:46:57,037
What is it?
1030
00:46:57,037 --> 00:46:58,327
The judicial candidate of ethics?
1031
00:46:58,327 --> 00:46:58,747
Christine: Yeah.
1032
00:46:58,957 --> 00:47:00,547
Well, and the other thing,
they can have friends just
1033
00:47:00,547 --> 00:47:01,957
don't post it on social media.
1034
00:47:01,957 --> 00:47:03,037
I mean, it's a campaign tool.
1035
00:47:03,037 --> 00:47:07,697
But the things I have found since looking
into this I mean, there's one judge on
1036
00:47:07,697 --> 00:47:10,067
the bench that endorsed another candidate.
1037
00:47:10,367 --> 00:47:14,957
There's a judge that called candidates
liars a week before the election.
1038
00:47:15,177 --> 00:47:20,187
There are former judges still using the
judge name that are helping campaign
1039
00:47:20,187 --> 00:47:21,957
for other judges that are now elected.
1040
00:47:22,017 --> 00:47:26,727
And all of it just feels
insanely wrong and inappropriate.
1041
00:47:26,727 --> 00:47:30,447
And I think it's because a lot of
judges don't have the prestige that
1042
00:47:30,447 --> 00:47:34,047
they have and that they should have and
the respect for the office that some
1043
00:47:34,047 --> 00:47:35,577
of what I believe to be the old guard.
1044
00:47:35,577 --> 00:47:39,332
I, I just can't imagine you, you want
me to say something controversial?
1045
00:47:39,842 --> 00:47:40,112
Hugh: Sure.
1046
00:47:40,892 --> 00:47:43,412
Christine: I just can't believe
that old men would've done
1047
00:47:43,412 --> 00:47:45,392
stupid shit like these women do.
1048
00:47:47,187 --> 00:47:48,987
I mean, we got too many
women on the bench.
1049
00:47:48,987 --> 00:47:49,827
They're outta control.
1050
00:47:49,947 --> 00:47:50,877
Hugh: I didn't, didn't see that coming.
1051
00:47:51,207 --> 00:47:55,947
Christine: I've said it on other podcasts,
but, and not that I think all women,
1052
00:47:56,037 --> 00:47:58,377
but at all, obviously I am a woman.
1053
00:47:58,377 --> 00:48:01,827
I, my nana, my nanna that's my
grandmother couldn't go to law school.
1054
00:48:01,827 --> 00:48:03,447
I first generation attorney.
1055
00:48:03,717 --> 00:48:06,237
I aspired to be a judge in the past.
1056
00:48:06,237 --> 00:48:07,197
I ran for Judge.
1057
00:48:07,377 --> 00:48:12,667
But the way some of these women
behave doing makeup tiktoks and just
1058
00:48:12,667 --> 00:48:16,717
wanting to get social media likes
or to, you know, make the perfect
1059
00:48:16,717 --> 00:48:20,287
cocktail, it makes me physically ill.
1060
00:48:20,557 --> 00:48:20,767
You know,
1061
00:48:21,157 --> 00:48:24,097
Hugh: one of the things that I've,
the ones that I've seen that I've
1062
00:48:24,097 --> 00:48:27,067
had the most issue with with my
clients' cases have been male judges.
1063
00:48:27,067 --> 00:48:27,457
So,
1064
00:48:27,997 --> 00:48:31,327
Christine: and maybe we're harder on
the, like what we see ourself in, like
1065
00:48:31,327 --> 00:48:32,492
I do think I hold, I think that's fair.
1066
00:48:32,497 --> 00:48:36,247
That's female judges to a higher
account than I do male judges.
1067
00:48:36,297 --> 00:48:37,797
Hugh: Well, I think there's a sense that.
1068
00:48:38,967 --> 00:48:41,427
It's been a job for white,
for old white dudes.
1069
00:48:41,877 --> 00:48:43,527
That's what it has been historically.
1070
00:48:43,527 --> 00:48:50,757
You want to see it become diverse and
women on the bench and you sort of, it's
1071
00:48:50,757 --> 00:48:52,807
one of those things that, , that's great.
1072
00:48:52,837 --> 00:48:53,527
It's family court.
1073
00:48:53,707 --> 00:48:58,147
We should have judges that
represent every group, it, both
1074
00:48:58,147 --> 00:48:59,497
genders, all of that agree.
1075
00:48:59,917 --> 00:49:04,987
And, but when that's just starting to
happen, those first people that are
1076
00:49:04,987 --> 00:49:08,107
sort of breaking through that barrier,
everyone's watching and thinking, oh.
1077
00:49:08,647 --> 00:49:11,367
Like, you're not making
anybody , look good doing this.
1078
00:49:11,427 --> 00:49:11,607
Christine: Yeah.
1079
00:49:11,607 --> 00:49:16,377
I mean, you shouldn't be dancing on the
bench literally, or dancing in chambers
1080
00:49:16,377 --> 00:49:19,107
or endorsing products from the bench.
1081
00:49:19,137 --> 00:49:21,747
I mean, that is, to me, radical.
1082
00:49:21,747 --> 00:49:25,407
And maybe I'm wrong, and maybe
judges used to do that sound
1083
00:49:25,407 --> 00:49:25,528
Hugh: quite old
1084
00:49:25,533 --> 00:49:29,553
Christine: obviously I have a personal
grudge with her for a plethora of reasons.
1085
00:49:29,803 --> 00:49:33,733
And anyone listening should be
traumatized by the fact that if you
1086
00:49:33,733 --> 00:49:37,393
go to court, you, if you are sitting
at home right now and your significant
1087
00:49:37,393 --> 00:49:38,833
other punches you in the face.
1088
00:49:39,228 --> 00:49:41,838
And you call 9 1 1 to get help.
1089
00:49:41,838 --> 00:49:45,648
You run down to the courthouse to file
for an emergency protective order.
1090
00:49:45,888 --> 00:49:50,298
You need to understand that when you
go to court and you cry and you say,
1091
00:49:50,298 --> 00:49:54,258
I didn't cook dinner right, and my
significant other punched me in the face.
1092
00:49:54,468 --> 00:49:57,768
You need to understand that that
judge may think that is click bait.
1093
00:49:58,008 --> 00:49:59,628
That is how egregious what she did is well
1094
00:49:59,628 --> 00:50:04,728
Hugh: imagine if the person, if when
you called 9 1 1, if you just had to
1095
00:50:04,728 --> 00:50:08,568
have the expectation of the person
taking the call, might just record it
1096
00:50:08,568 --> 00:50:11,598
and be posting it or live streaming
it to social media at the moment.
1097
00:50:11,718 --> 00:50:12,078
Exactly.
1098
00:50:12,078 --> 00:50:12,228
And
1099
00:50:12,228 --> 00:50:17,538
Hugh: how far, how f, how
big a step is it from that?
1100
00:50:17,863 --> 00:50:21,253
To the point where you're posting a
poll, you're posting the clip, then
1101
00:50:21,253 --> 00:50:24,343
a poll to figure out who's telling
the truth or not, and letting you
1102
00:50:24,343 --> 00:50:27,613
know, letting your followers tell
you who you should rule in favor of.
1103
00:50:27,883 --> 00:50:30,723
Christine: And I think that's why I
have so many followers that are in
1104
00:50:30,723 --> 00:50:35,013
law enforcement because they have
been held to accountable by society.
1105
00:50:35,283 --> 00:50:37,863
Obviously there's still outliers and
stuff like that, and I'm not saying
1106
00:50:37,863 --> 00:50:41,343
there aren't problems within the
system, but the Sheriff's office that
1107
00:50:41,343 --> 00:50:45,633
are bailiffs in their courtrooms, LMPD,
they know good and well, if they ever
1108
00:50:45,633 --> 00:50:48,753
behave like that, it would be on the
front page of the Courier Journal.
1109
00:50:48,783 --> 00:50:48,848
Oh, sure.
1110
00:50:48,848 --> 00:50:53,073
I know I've said it before, but they
are just appalled by their behavior.
1111
00:50:53,133 --> 00:50:55,713
Hugh: Well, and I'm not saying it
shouldn't be on the front page of
1112
00:50:55,713 --> 00:50:57,273
the Courier Journal if they do.
1113
00:50:57,783 --> 00:50:57,814
Oh yeah.
1114
00:50:57,814 --> 00:51:00,393
But I just think that maybe
this should also be on the front
1115
00:51:00,393 --> 00:51:01,803
page of the Courier Journal.
1116
00:51:01,808 --> 00:51:02,008
Oh,
1117
00:51:02,048 --> 00:51:02,568
Christine: I completely agree.
1118
00:51:02,568 --> 00:51:03,393
And the Couri Journal,
1119
00:51:03,573 --> 00:51:05,343
Hugh: for those who aren't
in the Louisville area, is
1120
00:51:05,343 --> 00:51:07,593
our big local newspaper,
1121
00:51:08,463 --> 00:51:09,213
Christine: air quotes.
1122
00:51:09,948 --> 00:51:10,698
For newspaper.
1123
00:51:11,298 --> 00:51:11,508
Hugh: Oh wow.
1124
00:51:11,538 --> 00:51:12,438
Christine: That's my sarcasm.
1125
00:51:12,438 --> 00:51:12,468
I
1126
00:51:12,468 --> 00:51:14,358
Hugh: think they're like
every other newspaper.
1127
00:51:14,358 --> 00:51:15,618
It's like in any, in any city.
1128
00:51:15,858 --> 00:51:16,398
Christine: It's funny.
1129
00:51:16,398 --> 00:51:21,228
It's I would say that I am How would
you describe me compared to you?
1130
00:51:21,318 --> 00:51:22,218
That's a weird question.
1131
00:51:22,488 --> 00:51:25,098
Hugh: That's a really
broad open ending question.
1132
00:51:25,098 --> 00:51:25,188
Right?
1133
00:51:25,608 --> 00:51:27,018
Christine: This could
go a plethora of ways.
1134
00:51:27,018 --> 00:51:27,258
Hugh: Yeah.
1135
00:51:27,258 --> 00:51:27,463
I don't know.
1136
00:51:27,603 --> 00:51:27,823
But
1137
00:51:28,068 --> 00:51:29,598
Christine: it's I just think I'm more
1138
00:51:29,698 --> 00:51:31,588
Hugh: I think you like the
word plethora more than I do.
1139
00:51:31,678 --> 00:51:32,338
Christine: I do love that.
1140
00:51:32,338 --> 00:51:35,068
I say that in fundamental
every five seconds.
1141
00:51:35,068 --> 00:51:38,038
If you watch a podcast, it makes me nuts.
1142
00:51:38,038 --> 00:51:40,918
And I counted on the Love Doc
podcast how many times I said
1143
00:51:40,918 --> 00:51:42,388
that's the fundamental problem.
1144
00:51:42,388 --> 00:51:45,433
It's like there can't be 14
fundamental problems, you know?
1145
00:51:46,018 --> 00:51:48,418
But I would say I'm a little
bit more dramatic than you.
1146
00:51:52,243 --> 00:51:55,993
Hugh: So you, you are also prone
to understatements, I would say.
1147
00:51:56,503 --> 00:51:59,103
Christine: You know, so it's like,
but it's, that's I think what makes
1148
00:51:59,103 --> 00:52:02,523
the fact that we've teamed up,
I think some people are a little
1149
00:52:02,523 --> 00:52:04,023
bit like shocked about it too.
1150
00:52:04,023 --> 00:52:04,323
I think that
1151
00:52:04,323 --> 00:52:06,753
Hugh: statement might come as a surprise
to some of the people that worked under
1152
00:52:06,753 --> 00:52:08,763
me on my litigation team, my former job.
1153
00:52:08,793 --> 00:52:09,123
What's that?
1154
00:52:09,123 --> 00:52:13,603
That they would, they would they
would know exactly how court went.
1155
00:52:13,663 --> 00:52:18,758
Be if I was in my office on a Zoom motion
hour or a Zoom hearing, fair enough.
1156
00:52:18,763 --> 00:52:22,193
They would hear the screaming and
they would hear things getting knocked
1157
00:52:22,193 --> 00:52:25,043
over or whatever, and they'd wait for
me to call or to calm down and then
1158
00:52:25,043 --> 00:52:26,813
come out before asking me anything.
1159
00:52:26,903 --> 00:52:26,993
Oh,
1160
00:52:26,993 --> 00:52:27,653
Christine: that's funny.
1161
00:52:27,743 --> 00:52:28,244
Hugh: But yeah, see
1162
00:52:28,543 --> 00:52:29,653
Christine: I didn't throw that many fits.
1163
00:52:29,658 --> 00:52:32,983
I do have have thrown fits at the
office for sure, but, and like, been
1164
00:52:32,983 --> 00:52:34,993
so upset about the way a ruling went.
1165
00:52:35,203 --> 00:52:38,533
But usually I like get it all
out and then I'm like, chill.
1166
00:52:38,593 --> 00:52:38,863
Hugh: Oh yeah.
1167
00:52:38,863 --> 00:52:39,703
I have to do the same.
1168
00:52:39,708 --> 00:52:39,838
Mm-hmm.
1169
00:52:39,918 --> 00:52:41,743
And I, and I just, I won't
want to talk about it.
1170
00:52:41,743 --> 00:52:43,663
I won't want to postgame
it until I'm over that.
1171
00:52:43,668 --> 00:52:44,233
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1172
00:52:44,233 --> 00:52:45,823
Especially like after a hearing.
1173
00:52:46,313 --> 00:52:50,633
If I have had like a half day hearing
and I'm in court, I will go sit down.
1174
00:52:50,633 --> 00:52:53,483
I'll have lunch, I will
totally change gears.
1175
00:52:53,483 --> 00:52:55,823
Like either call a
client on another matter.
1176
00:52:55,823 --> 00:52:58,673
That was always a way that I could,
you know, make use of the time.
1177
00:52:58,943 --> 00:53:02,393
But you force yourself
to switch gears or just.
1178
00:53:02,813 --> 00:53:03,923
Call, check in at home.
1179
00:53:03,923 --> 00:53:05,213
Just get your mind off of it.
1180
00:53:05,213 --> 00:53:05,273
Yeah.
1181
00:53:05,363 --> 00:53:07,733
And then you can come back
and speak more objectively.
1182
00:53:07,733 --> 00:53:09,983
What went well, what didn't
go well before you came back?
1183
00:53:10,073 --> 00:53:14,543
When I was in the moment, it was always,
I needed some space before I could
1184
00:53:14,543 --> 00:53:16,103
talk objectively about what happened.
1185
00:53:16,103 --> 00:53:19,973
And sometimes, sometimes I
would, I would just be raving.
1186
00:53:19,973 --> 00:53:22,403
I would never be angry with anyone
on my team or do anything like that.
1187
00:53:22,403 --> 00:53:22,463
Yeah.
1188
00:53:22,463 --> 00:53:25,793
But I would come out and they would
know that if you asked me about.
1189
00:53:26,438 --> 00:53:29,798
Right after it happened, I will
probably just pace around in
1190
00:53:29,798 --> 00:53:34,448
circles and just talk for 15 minutes
straight , and do a mind dump of like
1191
00:53:34,448 --> 00:53:36,158
how I felt about everything on it.
1192
00:53:36,158 --> 00:53:37,928
So I could be a little
bit dramatic that way.
1193
00:53:37,928 --> 00:53:39,158
But that was, once I got it out,
1194
00:53:39,458 --> 00:53:39,788
Christine: it was over.
1195
00:53:39,788 --> 00:53:39,998
Sit
1196
00:53:39,998 --> 00:53:43,238
Hugh: down, organize my case file,
put my notes together, get ready
1197
00:53:43,238 --> 00:53:46,388
for the eventual appeal once you
get a ruling in six, seven months.
1198
00:53:46,508 --> 00:53:48,998
Christine: Yeah, I actually have
like wicked low blood pressure.
1199
00:53:48,998 --> 00:53:50,618
Like I'm really healthy in that regard.
1200
00:53:50,618 --> 00:53:54,003
And everyone's like, that's crazy because
you're always like, da, da da da da.
1201
00:53:54,038 --> 00:53:55,508
But I think it's 'cause I just get it out.
1202
00:53:55,568 --> 00:53:57,158
Like I don't hold it in.
1203
00:53:57,378 --> 00:54:00,618
So maybe I could find like a
happy medium, but to circle back
1204
00:54:00,618 --> 00:54:02,208
to what we were talking about.
1205
00:54:02,588 --> 00:54:06,638
Is when I was a juvenile public
defender, we're talking at right
1206
00:54:06,638 --> 00:54:08,978
after the crux of the opiate epidemic.
1207
00:54:09,318 --> 00:54:13,188
At one point I represented a
granddaughter, a mom, and a grandmother.
1208
00:54:13,388 --> 00:54:15,128
And heavy stuff.
1209
00:54:15,128 --> 00:54:16,268
I mean, really sad stuff.
1210
00:54:16,268 --> 00:54:19,388
And I used to cry after court
sometimes and things like that.
1211
00:54:19,388 --> 00:54:24,098
But it got to be, I would say probably
the last five or six hearings after
1212
00:54:24,098 --> 00:54:27,968
court, I would, I would not cry in
front of the client, but I would cry.
1213
00:54:27,998 --> 00:54:32,228
And it wasn't because of even the
facts of what happened, it was
1214
00:54:32,228 --> 00:54:37,118
because I had no control of the
situation and felt like a failure.
1215
00:54:37,388 --> 00:54:38,138
Does that make sense?
1216
00:54:38,168 --> 00:54:38,528
Hugh: Yeah.
1217
00:54:38,533 --> 00:54:43,698
And, and , I haven't said much about that
aspect of it because it's hard to get
1218
00:54:43,698 --> 00:54:45,318
people to be sympathetic for attorneys.
1219
00:54:45,318 --> 00:54:47,628
We're over, we're highly
paid professionals.
1220
00:54:47,628 --> 00:54:47,718
Mm-hmm.
1221
00:54:47,958 --> 00:54:49,518
No one should think, oh, poor you.
1222
00:54:49,818 --> 00:54:51,499
But when your job.
1223
00:54:53,188 --> 00:54:55,108
You know what's on the line in your job.
1224
00:54:55,113 --> 00:54:55,253
Mm-hmm.
1225
00:54:55,338 --> 00:55:00,168
When you're, I mean, when you're defending
defendants in, in criminal cases, their
1226
00:55:00,168 --> 00:55:02,178
freedom, their life is on the line.
1227
00:55:02,178 --> 00:55:04,788
When you're defending, when you are
representing people who are fighting
1228
00:55:04,788 --> 00:55:07,188
over their children, it's personal.
1229
00:55:07,188 --> 00:55:10,308
No matter how good you are
at compartmentalizing it.
1230
00:55:10,308 --> 00:55:13,518
And I always tell my clients I can't
be personally involved because then
1231
00:55:13,518 --> 00:55:15,138
I would be a bad legal advisor.
1232
00:55:15,138 --> 00:55:18,288
You've got, I've got to be
neutral about certain things, but
1233
00:55:18,288 --> 00:55:19,368
you're always personally vested.
1234
00:55:19,818 --> 00:55:26,268
But you spend so much time preparing,
it stops everything in your life.
1235
00:55:26,508 --> 00:55:28,158
You don't talk to family.
1236
00:55:28,308 --> 00:55:31,128
You spend time away from
your spouse, your family.
1237
00:55:31,128 --> 00:55:35,448
I had a couch in one of the offices at
work where I would sleep and I would just
1238
00:55:35,448 --> 00:55:37,398
pull allnighters and work and take naps.
1239
00:55:37,398 --> 00:55:45,018
You get prepared for those things, and
one of the hardest things to handle for
1240
00:55:45,018 --> 00:55:47,628
me was going in and all of the prep.
1241
00:55:48,228 --> 00:55:52,098
Came to nothing because either it was,
oh, by the way we double booked something.
1242
00:55:52,098 --> 00:55:53,298
You just have to go home.
1243
00:55:53,328 --> 00:55:54,318
You're not gonna have it.
1244
00:55:54,348 --> 00:55:56,808
Or, oh, I, I don't feel like
hearing about that today.
1245
00:55:56,808 --> 00:56:00,268
What I really want to hear hearing here
let's change the hearing over to these
1246
00:56:00,268 --> 00:56:02,398
things and just not following the rules.
1247
00:56:02,578 --> 00:56:06,838
And you've put so much time, and I
don't, I don't know about you, but for
1248
00:56:06,838 --> 00:56:11,488
trial prep, that's thousands, if not
tens of thousands of dollars sometimes.
1249
00:56:11,488 --> 00:56:11,578
Mm-hmm.
1250
00:56:11,818 --> 00:56:15,658
That is just, has to be completely
redone when you don't get to go in
1251
00:56:15,658 --> 00:56:20,188
there and, and, and you don't go
through the how, you know, the proper
1252
00:56:20,188 --> 00:56:23,908
hearing that, that you were preparing
for that day and prepared your client
1253
00:56:23,908 --> 00:56:27,178
for, and they've taken off work for
and kids outta school and all of that.
1254
00:56:27,928 --> 00:56:33,178
It, that was just one of the most jarring
things that it, for most of my career.
1255
00:56:33,418 --> 00:56:36,658
If you were the hardest working
and most prepared person.
1256
00:56:37,258 --> 00:56:39,358
You didn't have to be the best attorney.
1257
00:56:39,363 --> 00:56:39,583
Mm-hmm.
1258
00:56:39,808 --> 00:56:44,488
You would get good outcomes and then you
would get better every single year as an
1259
00:56:44,488 --> 00:56:48,028
attorney and you would get even better
outcomes when you got to the point where
1260
00:56:48,028 --> 00:56:52,048
no matter how hard you worked and how
much you prepped, it was a coin flip
1261
00:56:52,378 --> 00:56:56,308
because you didn't know what was gonna
happen in court or the mood that the
1262
00:56:56,308 --> 00:56:58,138
person presiding over it was gonna be in.
1263
00:56:58,588 --> 00:57:02,698
That changed everything
for me as a practice.
1264
00:57:02,728 --> 00:57:02,998
Christine: Yep.
1265
00:57:03,388 --> 00:57:03,748
Yep.
1266
00:57:04,358 --> 00:57:07,508
And I think this is probably a
good place to wrap for the day.
1267
00:57:07,778 --> 00:57:13,268
What we would like from you is
to go to judgey judge-y.com.
1268
00:57:13,628 --> 00:57:19,388
Also on social media, especially TikTok,
if there is a viral lawyer video,
1269
00:57:19,388 --> 00:57:25,118
you want us to analyze tag judgey,
judge underscore y, or at Kentucky.
1270
00:57:25,118 --> 00:57:27,143
Hugh: I'm excited to see some more videos.
1271
00:57:27,143 --> 00:57:30,323
It I'm hoping I'm looking forward to
the day where it's not triggering,
1272
00:57:30,323 --> 00:57:35,303
where I don't go right back to feeling
like I'm in, in that person's shoes.
1273
00:57:35,303 --> 00:57:35,698
Getting no shit.
1274
00:57:35,728 --> 00:57:36,018
Yeah,
1275
00:57:36,438 --> 00:57:36,978
Christine: no shit.
1276
00:57:37,263 --> 00:57:40,073
Hugh: Looking forward to being
desensitized on some of it
1277
00:57:42,573 --> 00:57:43,053
/ Next call.
1278
00:57:43,053 --> 00:57:45,258
We need some justice, justice, justice.
1279
00:57:45,693 --> 00:57:47,073
And I wanna ring bells in public.
1280
00:57:47,433 --> 00:57:49,803
I wanna ring bes in public nor crowd.
1281
00:57:49,863 --> 00:57:51,698
Yeah, but I To the fo Yeah.
1282
00:57:51,898 --> 00:57:53,458
I To the fo Yeah.
1283
00:57:53,538 --> 00:57:57,178
I to the fo fo teaser.
