The interconnection between humans and animals extends beyond the human-animal bond into many different ways in which we interact with animals. On this episode, Dr. G and guest Marika Bell, dive into Anthrozoology, behavior, shelter animals, and more. Marika also shares her experiences interviewing individuals who helped the animals from the Maui wildfires.

About our guest: Marika has an MA in Anthrozoology from the ⁠University of Exeter⁠, holds a ⁠BA in Zoology (UW)⁠ and has been a CPDT-KA (Certified Professional Dog Trainer, from the ⁠Certification Council for Professional Dog Trainers⁠, since 2011. As the host of The Deal with Animals, she enjoys chatting with authors, nonprofits, professionals, academics, and enthusiasts about the various ways they connect with animals. She also offers mentoring to others who are interested in starting podcasts around animal welfare, knowledge, and connection. www.thedealwithanimals.com or Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/thedealwithanimals/

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Hi, and welcome to the animal welfare junction.

2

This is your host, Dr.

3

G and our music is written

and produced by Mike Sullivan.

4

Today's guest is Marika Bell, host

of The Deal with Animals, which

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is a podcast about anthrozoology

and the interconnection

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between humans and animals.

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Welcome to the junction.

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Marika Bell: Hi.

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Hi.

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Nice to meet you.

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Thank you for having me on.

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DrG: Yes, thank you for being here.

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How about you start by letting our

listeners know about your background?

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What got you started into, into the field?

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Where you come from?

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Marika Bell: Uh, well, anthro zoology

is a relatively new field compared

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to a lot of other disciplines.

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Um, so it really wasn't around

when I was first going to college.

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I was kind of, I knew what

I wanted to do in general.

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I wanted to work with animals.

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Um, I really wanted to work with big cats.

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And there was really no regular

university sort of programs for, you

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know, that sort of connection with

animals, which is what I was going for.

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I didn't want to be a veterinarian,

nothing against veterinarians, but

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that wasn't where I saw myself.

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I actually, uh, faint when I see blood.

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So, uh, it didn't seem

like a good path for me.

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Uh, But I figured the closest I could get

to what I really wanted to do was zoology.

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So I did my degree in zoology

at Washington State University

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and then over at the University

of Washington I finished it off.

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So I stuck with that for a while

and didn't really know, you know,

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zoology is kind of one of those things

that really is sometimes pre vet.

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It's, it's a nice one to have if

you want to know about physiology,

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but it, it doesn't really get you

to the, um, philosophical stuff

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that you really want to be in when

you're looking at the connection

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between humans and other animals.

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So I was kind of stuck for a while.

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I worked at zoos for a little while.

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Uh, I worked at pet stores

for a little while, and, um,

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then I became a dog trainer.

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So, I did, uh, my own dog training

business, and when it came to moving from,

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um, I was, I was doing my dog training

business in New Zealand, uh, we decided

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to move back to the United States, and I

got a position with, um, the Washington

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Humane Society, which is an organization

now called, uh, ooh, something else,

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I have to look that one up again, it,

it doesn't stick in my head as much as

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Washington Humane Society, which is where

I worked for those few years, um, but.

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They basically took care of all of the

animals, uh, in the, uh, Washington, D.

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C.

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area.

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So in the district, they were responsible

for, um, all of, all of the dogs and cats,

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but also any, you know, goat that happened

to be wandering down the street in D.

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C., which does actually happen sometimes.

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So, uh, wildlife, all of that.

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Uh, so I worked with them

and I was the director for

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behavior and rehoming programs.

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And, uh, when I moved, From there,

and we decided to go back to

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the UK for a couple of years, I

kind of didn't know what to do.

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So I started looking into my master's

and found anthrazoology, which again

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was not available, you know, the,

I don't know, 15 years before that

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when I finished my zoology degree.

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So I jumped at that opportunity and

got my master's in anthrazoology

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at the University of Exeter.

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And, uh, really, I feel like

that sums up a lot of it.

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DrG: So what is anthrozoology?

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Because we're talking about the

interconnection between humans and

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animals, but I feel like it just means

so much more than just that definition.

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Marika Bell: Yeah, and it's called

by a lot of different names, too,

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again, because I think it's a very,

uh, you know, a fairly new discipline.

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You hear it called, uh, Uh, anthrozoology,

also zooanthropology, or, uh, human

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animal studies, which is probably

how it was first known, and, um, a

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fantastic book written by Margaret, uh,

oh, sorry, Margot de Mello, um, about

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humans and all of the ways in which

humans interact with other animals.

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And that is where it really hit me

that that's really what I'd been

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looking for the whole time, right?

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This, this idea of not

just how do animals behave?

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It's interesting.

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How do animals work?

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That's interesting.

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But, but why are they connecting with

us and how are they connecting with us?

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Uh, and examples of that would be, you

know, our dogs and cats, obviously.

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How, how is it that?

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That animal, the totally different

species, can live in our house.

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Like, that doesn't happen very

often in nature, where two species

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coexist and, and live together.

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And so when it does happen, it's,

it's really interesting, and

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especially with humans, because

um, we are such a weird animal.

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I mean, we are, we're, we're very strange.

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Um.

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Um.

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But we're still just animals.

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So the way that we have our

relationships with other animals,

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I just find very interesting.

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And the way that animals choose

to have a relationship with us.

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Now, sometimes it's not a choice.

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And that is something we also talk about

in anthrozoology, you know, the ways that

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humans use animals, the ways that humans

think about animals, um, and, and how they

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reflect our own cultures, you know, how

we use animals, um, in our art, in our

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music, um, you know, Even in our clothes

or our medicine, you know, there's,

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there's just animals always connecting

us, uh, no matter, you know, whether we

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like animals or not, whether we consider

ourselves animal lovers or not, they're,

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they're always in our lives and, uh, we

can't really get away from that and if

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we did, we probably wouldn't survive.

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So I, I just, I find

all of it fascinating.

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Um, and I, I really like to share it,

which is why I started the podcast.

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DrG: Excellent.

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So, yeah.

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And, and what are the kind of things

that I was looking through and I have

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listened to some of your episodes.

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So, I see that you

separated into like series.

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Yeah.

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Um, so what got you, what got

you started into doing that?

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Marika Bell: Well, again, I think

I've alluded to this in just that

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there are so many subjects, right?

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There's, there's, it's a

multidisciplinary area.

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There are so many different areas where

anthrozoology comes into it, even if it's

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not considered anthrozoology technically.

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So, um, Because there's so much to cover.

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I really feel like I needed to narrow the

scope a little bit and create these series

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so that people could come in if they

don't know anything about the subject.

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It's kind of a 101 on that subject, but

also for people who do know about a little

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bit about, say, animals in religion,

they could come into that series.

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And, uh, still learn something because

it's, it's trying to, I try to get

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guests from all over the world.

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So it's not just a, an American or

a Western philosophy focused, um,

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podcast, but I also want to bring in

subjects that are surprising, right?

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Something that, that maybe

people haven't thought of before.

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It's not the same story that they've

read in 15 different books about animals.

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You know, it's going to be something

hopefully a little bit different.

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DrG: Yeah, from looking at, I'm, I'm

looking right now at the, at the website.

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So any of our listeners that want to

look into this, the deal with animals.

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com, and I'm looking at your series

library and you have all of these

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different, different topics that

are, that are very varied, right?

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Like really different.

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Like we're going everywhere

from vegan culture to animals

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in the divine and one health.

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So I mean, it's like, it's,

it goes all over the place.

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Marika Bell: Yeah, and, and I like

to keep things different, right?

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I don't want to stick with one

thing for too long because I myself

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have a problem with getting bored.

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Yeah.

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So I want to learn something,

I want to learn something new.

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So this is, I mean, I did a lot of

this for me, I, I, I love sharing it,

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but I started the podcast because I

personally needed to talk to people about.

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You know, these sorts of subjects, I

like to learn about them and, uh, I knew

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that there were people out there that

would love to share that information.

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So, uh, if I want to learn something,

if I find it interesting, I think that

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my, my listeners will also find it

interesting, which is one reason why

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I do like to jump around a little bit

from series to series, even if the

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series itself stays pretty focused.

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DrG: I think that, you know,

one of the reasons I started

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the podcast was very similar.

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I wanted to let people know, like educate

them and educate myself on all, all

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sorts of things, animal welfare, which

we think about animal welfare as, as one

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definition, but it involves everything.

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It involves everything from how

we feed our animals to animal

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cruelty investigations, to just

all sorts of different things.

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So I find that podcasting gives us a

voice to be able to give that information.

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So, you know, do you, do you feel that

it's That podcasts overall are a benefit

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to shelters and advocacy efforts and such.

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Marika Bell: Yeah, in fact, I, one

of the things that I have done in the

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last year or so is started a mentoring,

um, part of what I'm doing to help

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people do that and I really focus on

people who are either in the area of

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animal welfare or animal education

and trying to get more information out

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there that's accessible for people,

you know, who, who maybe aren't going

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to have the money to get the journals.

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Most of us don't have the money

to get all the journals because

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they're actually really expensive.

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Uh, you gotta join a lot of

different, uh, societies.

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And, you know, maybe they don't have

the time to read or they don't have, you

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know, the, the know, in, in the know about

all of the jargon for different things.

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And those are all roadblocks for people to

learn anything new about, or to even enjoy

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themselves trying to learn something new,

um, whether, you know, in any subject.

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So podcasts are a really accessible

way to get your information out

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there and also to learn from,

you know, what is put out there.

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And you have to sort through it a

little bit, obviously, know where

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your information is coming from.

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But it really is.

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an excellent way of, especially if you're

an organization like Animal Welfare,

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of getting, you know, getting your

community to know about what you're doing.

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Just because you start a podcast

doesn't mean you need to have

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50, 000 or 200, 000 listeners.

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It could just be for your community

and that will be a successful podcast.

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So if you're an animal welfare

organization and you have a hard time,

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you know, getting people to, to hear about

your adoption, you know, your adoption,

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um, Animals that are up for adoption or

your, your events that you're having, or

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just want the community have more of a

connection with your organization, knowing

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who your staff are, you know, knowing

what, what, uh, what things you offer.

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You can start a podcast with

that kind of information.

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And.

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And put it out there for the community,

even if, you know, it seems like you

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only have 10 listeners to start with,

you're still educating people, you're

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still getting that information out

there, and they're going to talk about

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it, and you will be able to build on

that until you've got people listening

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and, you know, using it for to as a

resource, not to just know about your

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organization, but to know about what they

should do when they've adopted an animal.

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DrG: Looking at your, at your

list, your last season was about

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the animals of the Maui wildfires.

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And I know that you have been doing,

uh, having putting forth a lot of

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effort into the fundraising and that.

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So what led you to create that season?

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And can you give us a little

bit of a summary about it?

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Marika Bell: Yeah.

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So animals of the Maui wildfires,

which is my last season, uh,

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last series of season one.

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was really, uh, a labor of love.

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It was really different than

all of my other episodes.

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So generally my episodes are

a one on one or a round table

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episodes where I interview

someone about what they're doing.

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Um, but for animals of the Maui wildfires,

I really came to it in a different way.

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Um, I interviewed, I went to Maui, I

was going to Maui anyway for a vacation,

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but it was, it ended up being two months

after the wildfires, and I felt like

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I should talk to Maui Humane Society

about what had happened, because I

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didn't really know what had happened.

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So when I went there and I, I talked

with them, I really, I got this feeling

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that, uh, something really important

had happened with the community.

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Something really, uh, Life changing

had happened for the people who

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were there and, uh, who saw some of

the things that they saw, but were

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also able to help their community.

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recover and we're continuing to recover.

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And I wanted to be able to share

that, but I, at the time I listened

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back to my recording and I realized

I just didn't have enough to be

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able to share that story well.

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So I sat on it for a while and didn't

really, couldn't really figure out

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what to do because I definitely

wanted to share that information.

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I had the platform to share it.

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Um, and I felt like that was, uh, uh,

you know, within what I should be doing.

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It's my responsibility to do when you have

a story like that, that you want to share.

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But, um, I didn't have enough voices.

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So I call, I called them back and

said, Hey, is there anybody else

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who wants to talk, uh, about this?

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And I ended up interviewing a few more

people who were staff at Maui Humane

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Society about their experiences and

they were ready to talk about it.

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They wanted to talk about it.

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So what we did was we, we did these

interviews and then we put them together

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more as a story arc as a narrative rather

than an one on one interview style.

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Um, Okay.

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And, uh, I had a fantastic audio

engineer come in who created some

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beautiful music for the series and,

uh, did all of the sound design.

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It was excellent.

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Uh, it took a lot of time, much more

time than it takes to do a single episode

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or even a single series, typically.

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Um, but it was, it was well worth it.

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It was, it was, It was an amazing

project to be able to work on.

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And on top of that, we're running a

fundraiser for Maui Humane Society to

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continue their work and to really get the

word out about the series so that they can

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share their stories and their messages.

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We're sure, primarily messages of hope

and, and, you know, hearing about the

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reunification stories of the animals that

came out of the burn zone is wonderful.

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Um, but also, you know, sharing some of

what they went through in a way that made

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them feel comfortable, I think was also

really important because I, I think that

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sometimes these, these disasters happen.

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And We all really feel for the people

who they're happening to and the

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communities, but because there's so

much of that in the world right now

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that we're hearing, not that I don't

think that that's a new phenomenon.

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I think there's always been, you know,

natural disasters and, um, and wars and

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things happening that we have a hard

time coming to grips with, but we hear

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about them more now because Of media

and, and how accessible everything

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is, the downside to accessibility

maybe, um, but we, we, I don't want

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to say we forget about when something

happens, but something else takes its

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place so fast, unfortunately, uh, so

with the anniversary of the wildfires,

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uh, just passed, uh, August 8th.

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Um, I really wanted to remind people

what had happened and what we need

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to do to prevent it in the future.

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And so it seemed like a really good

time to release it, uh, right before

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the, the anniversary and run this

fundraiser through August to try to

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get 10, 000 for Maui Humane Society to

continue all of their fantastic work.

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So if anybody wants to donate

to that, they can do that

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through my website as well.

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DrG: Yeah.

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And I think that one, one thing that

you said that is important for people

271

to understand is the impact that

it has on the people that take care

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on the end of the animals, right?

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Because We hear about the animals of Maui

and we're thinking about the horrible

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things that the animals are enduring.

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But we also have to take into

consideration what the humans that

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are helping those animals that

have to see that, that, you know,

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or that are experiencing losses,

what their story is as well.

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Marika Bell: Yeah, and that happens all

the time in animal welfare, doesn't it?

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I mean, it's not just

when a disaster happens.

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In animal shelters, it's one of those

things where it really never ends.

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We end up seeing sort of the worst of,

of everything, um, related to that bond

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with humans and, and companion animals.

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Um, and we can forget that there's a

really positive side of that as well.

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DrG: Yeah, we, we talk a lot

about compassion fatigue and,

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uh, and the impact that having to

deal with these bad situations.

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And then on top of that, the, the public

that is not very well educated at times.

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It brings more grief to the humane,

you know, everybody in shelter med and

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the veterinarians and everything else.

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And it, you know, it takes everybody

learning and becoming educated and working

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together so that it makes it a better

environment for the animals and for the

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people that are working with the animals.

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Because realistically, if we don't

have those shelter workers, who's going

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to take care of the animals, right?

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So we need to be a little bit more kind.

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Marika Bell: Well, and it shouldn't

be an us versus them, right?

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Like, we're part of the community

and they're part of the solution

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when it comes to issues of animal

sheltering and animal welfare.

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And so we have to be working on it as

a, as a team and, and not seeing it as

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a, as a, you know, you know, This group

versus that group and, and, you know,

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we can all be working on it together.

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And I think, again, podcasts

are a great way of doing that.

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Being able to share your story and making

the staff human for people, for the, for

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the community, I think is so important.

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Because it really is really

very easy for people to say,

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well, I couldn't work there.

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I think we've all heard that, right?

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I couldn't do that.

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I couldn't do that job.

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I never do what you do much.

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Yes, that one.

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You're like, oh that hurts

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But I think what people really understand

why we work in animal sheltering And,

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and why it's important if you love

animals to know what's going on in

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animal sheltering and animal welfare.

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You know, it is important.

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You can't just, you shouldn't

just close your eyes and hope

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somebody else is doing the job.

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DrG: Right.

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And it's, and even if you could

not do it, at least be supportive

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to the people that are doing it.

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Because it is hard, it is hard work.

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Yeah.

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like your whole series eight

was centered on animal shelter

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world, uh, in the, what is it?

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The world of animal

welfare and sheltering.

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So can you tell us what, what

people, because we have a quite

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a few of our listeners that

are, that are shelter people.

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So can you tell us what they could

expect to, to learn from that series?

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Marika Bell: Yeah, that series

was a really fun one again,

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because my background is in

animal welfare and sheltering.

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Um, I, I first started training dogs, By

working with shelters and, and training

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dogs in a shelter environment, met my

first pit bull that way, and, uh, I

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remember, if I could just share this

quick story, I remember that, uh, her

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name was Una, and she was this white

pit bull, and, uh, I wasn't sure if we

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were allowed to go in with her, because

we didn't see pit bulls very often back

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then, you know, that was, that was a

time where people were still euthanizing

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pit bulls most of the time whenever they

came to the shelter, and, uh, I was told

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that, yes, she was very nice, I should

go ahead and work with her, it was fine.

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So I went in there, and I brought a

hairbrush, and I brought my clicker, and

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I brought some treats, and I was gonna see

if I could groom her a little bit, and I

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showed her my hairbrush, and she cowered.

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And it just, my, my

heart, you know, it hurt.

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Um, so I sat down, crossed my legs, and

she came over and curled up in my lap.

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Her entire, you know, huge 80

pound ness curled as tight as she

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could in a tiny ball on my lap.

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Um, and I couldn't pick up the

hairbrush because she would just,

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she would, she would shrink away.

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So I just sat there

and I cuddled with her.

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And that's how we spent our,

you know, 15 or 20 minutes.

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And it was lovely and I have,

I've loved pit bulls ever since.

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They're beautiful.

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She, she was a beautiful,

beautiful animal.

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Um, Sorry, I, now I've

forgotten your question.

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Oh, what can people

expect from the series?

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Yeah, from Series 8.

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Um, so, I think there's a lot in

Series 8, uh, for people who maybe

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want to learn more about animal

welfare and what actually goes on.

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Uh, but also I really wanted to make it

a series that was going to be useful for

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people who are already in animal welfare.

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So I talked to, uh, quite a few people

who are leaders within the animal welfare

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community in things like new ideas, right?

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What, what are new things

that we could be doing?

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Um, What are things that are working

that are, uh, really progressing

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animal welfare and sheltering in a

way that is humane, in a way that is,

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uh, connecting with the community.

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So it, it was really a way of.

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Trying to find that nice middle ground

between getting some information out

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there for people who didn't know anything

about animal welfare and really just

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want to know what's going on versus

the people who, who really already

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know what's going on, but maybe want a

new perspective or want some new ideas

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and what they can be doing a little

bit different to make things better.

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DrG: There's something because, you

know, it takes everybody coming together

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and it's about collaboration and not

everything works everywhere, but a

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shelter may be struggling, whether

it be with their intake protocols

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or with how they take care of the

animals, their behavior, you know,

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adoption, marketing, all that stuff.

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And there may be another shelter

that can help them with that.

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So being able to work together

with, with other groups instead of.

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I just see so much divisiveness

anymore, you know, like people saying,

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Oh, our shelter is better than that

shelter because they do X, Y, and

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Z, or they don't do X, Y, and Z, and

it's like, let's lift each other up

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and let's help each other, right?

383

Because in the end, it's about

getting these animals taken care

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of and getting them adopted.

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Marika Bell: Yeah.

386

You know, one of my favorite episodes

in that series was a roundtable

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I did with Nanette McCann, who is

the executive director at a local

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animal shelter here, um, called,

uh, Homeward Pet Adoption Center.

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And, uh, Corey Regnerus Kell, who

works in New Zealand and, uh, is a,

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um, oh, now I can't remember his title.

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He, he is the District manager.

392

He, he oversees quite a few of

the, uh, shelters, the, the SPCAs

393

in New Zealand and, you know,

two different worlds, right?

394

Like two different approaches, um,

to animal welfare and sheltering,

395

uh, some, some of them similar and

some of them, you know, we were just

396

learning from each other the whole time.

397

It was a great conversation.

398

We, we all had a really good,

good time with that one.

399

And, you know, And the amount of times

we were like, Oh, so how do you do this?

400

Oh, how do you, you know, it was just

really fun conversation and learning

401

from each other, which was great.

402

DrG: So switching gears a little

bit, because it goes along with

403

shelter problems that we see a lot

of animals that end up in shelters

404

is because of behavioral issues.

405

So first, I don't think that

that many people in the community

406

understand the difference between

a trainer and a behaviorist.

407

So, can you tell us about that,

what, what the difference is?

408

Marika Bell: Um, a behaviorist.

409

is very science focused, and

410

they like to work with the quadrants

often, and if that's not a term that

411

people have heard, it's a pretty common

dog training term, um, talking about,

412

uh, positive reinforcement, negative

reinforcement, positive punishment,

413

negative punishment, um, and, and

behaviorism stems from uh, Uh, a

414

lot of work previously done within

animal behavior, um, the science.

415

So it's a very science based

approach to dog training.

416

A dog trainer is often

a behaviorist, right?

417

A behaviorist is often a dog trainer.

418

Not always.

419

Uh, but dog trainers, I would say

for the most part, again, this

420

is overgeneralization, focused on

obedience and on training cues.

421

Whereas, maybe a behaviorist is,

is similar, but a behaviorist might

422

also be focused on, uh, figuring

out where that behavior is coming

423

from in more of a scientific way.

424

So they want to, to solve a behavior

problem sometimes, and, and that takes

425

really looking at context, right?

426

Looking at the whole context.

427

And I'm not saying just a dog

trainer doesn't do that because they

428

usually have to do that as well.

429

Um, but a lot of it just depends on the

approach and, and what the end goals are.

430

Sometimes you can get a dog trainer

who, who has no scientific background,

431

um, is not certified in any kind of dog

training and they, they can still be

432

a good dog trainer, um, because they

understand, you know, dog body language,

433

or they understand, you know, how to

teach a cue, um, and that's great,

434

but they might not be able to tell you

why the dog is food resource guarding.

435

Um, but they might be able to solve

the behavior one way or the other.

436

Yeah.

437

It kind of depends on, you know,

what your, what kind of connection

438

you're looking to have with your pets.

439

DrG: So what, what do you need

to do to become certified as

440

a professional dog trainer?

441

Marika Bell: Yeah.

442

Uh, well there's quite a few different

certifications out there in the world.

443

Um, when I was looking to become

a certified dog trainer, I went

444

through the certification council

for professional dog trainers.

445

It's called CPDT.

446

And back then I was living in

New Zealand and I was again,

447

starting my dog training business.

448

And I'd had some previous experience,

um In practicing with clickers and

449

in, I had a certification through

the animal behavior college as well,

450

which is a dog training program,

but I didn't feel like I was really

451

ready to take clients just from that.

452

So I actually did a whole lot of

reading, read pretty much every dog

453

training book I could get my hands on.

454

And I really became focused on, uh,

positive reinforcement style dog training.

455

Uh, so that, the certification council,

that was a really good match for me in

456

terms of how to become and, and what kind

of certification I wanted, uh, because

457

that often tells you what kind of dog

trainer you're going to get, depending

458

on what kind of certification they have.

459

So, yeah.

460

CPDT is very much focused on positive

reinforcement style training, um, but

461

they are very inclusive as well and

understand when there is sometimes

462

a need to, to think outside the box.

463

Also, um, you know, cookies aren't always

the answer to everything and positive

464

reinforcement isn't always about cookies.

465

So it's, it's really important to

know your science and to know why

466

animals do what they do and, and

dogs, if, if you're a dog trainer.

467

Uh, so I was living in New Zealand and,

uh, they didn't have a certification

468

program set up in New Zealand at all.

469

So I had to kind of start that right from

the ground up and find my own proctor and

470

get my own, um, you know, to sit the exam.

471

I, of course, I was the only one

sitting in the exam and I was just

472

sitting there with, with the proctor.

473

Um, and yeah.

474

It was it was kind of funny, but

it made it work, you know, found a

475

room to in the local college that

let me borrow and and I got my

476

certification done through through that.

477

So it's it's kind of a long process.

478

You have to get a lot of, uh, letter of

recommendations from colleagues from from

479

veterinarians that you've worked with.

480

And even from clients.

481

So you actually start taking clients

typically before you become certified

482

just to get that background.

483

Um, but what a lot of what I had

done is I'd gone into shelters and

484

worked with the shelter dogs for free.

485

Just offered my services to the shelters

So that I could get that practice in

486

because as much as you read books about

dog training You know dogs are not

487

recipes dogs are dogs are individuals and

they aren't going to follow the recipe

488

They're not gonna follow the literature.

489

They don't read And they will always

throw something new at you, you know

490

I can't, all the times that I thought

this, this should work, this should work.

491

Why is this not working?

492

Um, because, you know, dogs, they, they

are going to teach you something new.

493

So it's good to get that hands on

experience and working with a shelter, if

494

there's a shelter that really could use

that help, is a great way of doing that.

495

DrG: Yeah, I think that it would be very

beneficial for, humane organizations and

496

shelters to have dog trainers, both for

trying to keep animals from coming into

497

the shelter to begin with, you know, if it

is something that can be worked with, with

498

the pet owner, you know, if the pet owner

is having a problem that is manageable and

499

the pet owner is willing to work with it,

because we got to remember that we need to

500

have the willingness to, to do the work.

501

Um, and then also to make

animals more adoptive, right?

502

Like it, what is the overall benefit

of, of training for shelter animals?

503

Marika Bell: You know, I think the

biggest benefit to the shelter animal

504

is that Interaction with humans, whether

they learn anything from the training

505

or not, it's it's giving them something

to do being in a shelter is very boring.

506

Being in a shelter is is stressful.

507

And anytime we're.

508

If the animal can get out and interact

with someone, if they can learn something

509

from that as well, great, but often

they're actually too stressed in a

510

shelter to be able to take on much.

511

Uh, I think one of the, one of the

first things you learn as a dog trainer

512

is that dogs learn much more easily

when they're happy and when they're

513

comfortable and when they're having fun.

514

Uh, that's sometimes hard to

get to in a shelter environment.

515

Uh, it's a little easier in a foster.

516

Um, but if they can just get out

and have a little bit of fun, um,

517

you do a little training, it gives

them something to think about.

518

It's such a great way of, of

doing enrichment with the dogs.

519

So I honestly, I feel like that

is the most important part, um,

520

for the, for the dog trainer.

521

Yeah.

522

They're going to get some experience.

523

The dogs are definitely

going to learn something.

524

Um, yeah, they're, they're going to have,

they're going to have a little bit of,

525

you A background and how to sit better,

you know, how to sit in a stressful

526

circumstance, then they would have,

if they didn't do any training at all.

527

So, anything, you know, that's

positive, anything that's not

528

going to stress them out further.

529

Uh, don't push too hard if you're

working with a dog in a shelter.

530

Certainly don't use any techniques that

are punishment based or, um, going to

531

cause them any kind of fear or pain.

532

And I would say that for all dogs,

but particularly for dogs in a

533

shelter that is now what they need.

534

Um, and, and if they are behaving in a

way that makes you think that that is

535

what they, you know, would benefit from,

then, then you've really got to have a

536

long conversation about, you know, what,

what is, you What the dog is there for

537

and whether they're going to make it

through the system at all, but I, I truly

538

feel that, um, you shouldn't need any of

those techniques to work with an animal.

539

You know, my background was working with

big cats for a while, and, uh, you, you

540

don't use those techniques with big cats.

541

You, you don't put a

prong collar on a big cat.

542

You don't use an electric shock collar.

543

Um, if you tried to do

that, they would kill you.

544

So, um, you, you.

545

work with them in a positive way.

546

You know, you, you have to, um,

often you're, you're working between,

547

you know, you've got a cage between

yourself and a big cat, um, you

548

often don't have that with a dog.

549

So, you, you literally, even if you

wanted to, to punish or use any kind of

550

negative, uh, punishment or, sorry, uh,

positive punishment to actually, uh, work

551

with a big cat, you couldn't, because you

often, you know, you have this barrier.

552

Uh, and if you don't have to with big

cats, why would you have to with dogs?

553

DrG: Yeah, I mean, it, it is

a huge pet peeve of mine, is

554

the electric shock collars.

555

Um, because I think that you get

one of two things you get either

556

submission or aggression, right?

557

Like that's going to be the two

things that they're going to come

558

up with you're injuring this animal.

559

They're confused They don't they don't

necessarily associate the the discomfort

560

with the action So then they're going

to learn to either be afraid of you and

561

hide from you or they're going to, you

know, not be able to take it anymore

562

and become aggressive and we see some

Some animals in in shelters that You

563

know, are trained in these manners.

564

And then you get the, the person coming

into the adoption and they're handed

565

this remote and told, here you go.

566

This is how you're going

to control your dog.

567

And you know, there are some really

horrible stories of things that

568

happen with these electric collars.

569

Once again, once that dog has decided

that it's not putting up with it, or

570

just the fact that you're not really

doing anything to control the behavior.

571

All you're doing is just kind

of like putting the stop.

572

This temporary stop.

573

You're not getting to the root of why

the dog is doing what they're doing.

574

It's, it's almost like,

like, like an easy fix.

575

Marika Bell: Yeah, you're not, and

you're not creating a relationship with

576

that dog that, that is based on trust.

577

Um, again, if it's, if it's equipment

that you wouldn't use on your

578

child, I wouldn't use it on a dog.

579

Um, I think it's cruel.

580

There are, I know there are other people

who use those sorts of equipment and,

581

and, You know, you'll hear the whole,

um, if you use it the right way, then

582

it's not cruel, or use it the right

way, and it teaches the dog quickly, so

583

they can't, you know, hurt themselves,

and, and I understand that, that that's,

584

you know, for some dogs, it probably

does work, you know, certain, certain

585

personality dogs, Um, you know, maybe,

but there are, there's fallout no

586

matter what, any dog, there's going

to be some fallout, whether you see it

587

right away or not, and that could be a

damaged relationship with that person.

588

Um, it could be that they're not

willing to listen to you when

589

that thing is not on their neck.

590

Um, you know, there, there is, there

is, uh, damage to someone when you

591

use pain to, to train them, whether

it seems to work in the moment or not.

592

So yeah, I would always tell

people that that's not appropriate.

593

DrG: Yeah.

594

And especially my fear is when people are

using it because of aggressive problems

595

Marika Bell: and, and

596

DrG: that's only, I would

never use it for a dog who is

597

Marika Bell: already

showing aggression for sure.

598

I mean, like I said, I would never

use them, but, but yes, I would be

599

particularly concerned if someone

was trying to use it for, any kind of

600

pain or punishment technique in a dog

that was already showing aggression.

601

DrG: So what, what would you say to

shelters as far as things that they can do

602

to improve the quality of life of animals?

603

Since we're seeing these animals that

are staying in shelters for longer

604

periods of times than we used to.

605

What, what are the kind of

things that shelters can do to,

606

to do better by these animals?

607

Marika Bell: That's a

really good question.

608

Um, you know, I think we need to

get them out of the shelters faster.

609

And, And I know that there, there

are some difficulties with that and a

610

lot of, it's a blanket statement that

the, that doesn't solve the problem.

611

But, Anything we can do that will

help the dog or the cat in the shelter

612

be more comfortable is important.

613

Um, I think training is a

really good option for that.

614

I think anything we can do to, again,

get the community more involved.

615

These are their animals, and I think they

need to see it that, that way, you know.

616

Um, again, I think people should, I think

shelters should start their own podcasts.

617

Um, I think that that's a way of, of

being able to connect with the community.

618

Um, And it doesn't cost a lot of money.

619

It, it, it does take some time, um,

and it does take some, some learning

620

the equipment and learning the process.

621

But it's not difficult.

622

I mean, honestly, if I could do it,

then it's definitely not difficult.

623

I'm not a techie person.

624

Um, and, and if they just, you know,

want to do it, I don't know, you know, a

625

short series, six episodes on, you know,

what to do once you get your dog home.

626

Or what to look for when you're

actually looking for a dog to adopt.

627

Like, what are the things

you should be looking for?

628

And, you know, spoiler, it is not the

color of the dog, um, nor the size.

629

Sometimes it's actually more

about the dog's personality.

630

Um, and, you know, maybe their hair and

their size comes into that a little bit.

631

But, you know, looking at what

kind of personality that you, you

632

can live with is much, much more

important than the breed of the dog.

633

Um, but that's my soapbox.

634

So if, you know, if you can, if you

can start a podcast, if you can get

635

someone doing even just, you know, five

minutes of interviewing the other staff

636

members so that the community knows

who's working there and what they're

637

doing and how important their jobs are.

638

I think it's a great way of connecting.

639

And I think anything like that,

even if it doesn't feel like

640

it's directly for the animals.

641

Um, Anytime we can connect

with the community and get

642

the community's involvement is

going to be beneficial for them.

643

Like I said, get the animals out faster.

644

DrG: Yeah, I think that when people

see a dog or a cat that's available for

645

adoption, they see it on TV or something.

646

It just makes them kind of

almost bond through, through

647

the media with that animal.

648

So if we get, if we get people to learn

about the residents of the individual

649

shelters, It may encourage people to

come in and meet them and if anything,

650

take him home, take him for a day or,

you know, like, even if you're taking

651

them to the park and bringing them back,

at least it's, it's something, you know.

652

Marika Bell: Oh gosh.

653

Yeah.

654

I love the ones where the dogs

can actually get out of the

655

shelter for more than just a walk.

656

You know, they get to go to the beach

or they get to go to the mountain

657

and have a bit of a hike and get out.

658

Um, not for every dog.

659

Not every dog is going to

be up for that, you know.

660

Um, but yeah.

661

In a lot of cases, that's a great

way to burn some energy, uh, and, and

662

really get to know the dog better too.

663

I don't know if you can truly know

an animal until you've walked them.

664

You know, dogs, until you've been on

the other end of that leash, you just

665

don't know what they're going to be like.

666

Um, take them out to all sorts of

places, you know, to find out how,

667

how they feel about being in public.

668

Find out how they feel

about being near other dogs.

669

If you walk past a dog park,

you know, find out how they

670

feel about being in the woods.

671

Um, you know, ask them questions.

672

I think maybe that's a good answer too.

673

It's just ask, ask that animal a lot

of questions while they're there.

674

That's, you know, they're,

they're there for a while.

675

Um, sometimes too long, but even

if it's only for a few days,

676

ask that dog so many questions.

677

DrG: So is there anything that we have

not touched on or anything else that

678

you want to share with our audience?

679

Um, I

680

Marika Bell: guess one of the things

that I would love to share with people

681

is, Uh, and this still is on the

same vein as, as starting a podcast.

682

If you just don't feel like your

organization can start a podcast, um,

683

doesn't have time, doesn't have the money.

684

Uh, again, I don't think those

should be huge barriers, but if

685

you feel like they are, try to

just be guests on other podcasts.

686

Like that's a great way of getting, you

know, getting more your organization out

687

there more about what you're doing is find

some other podcasts and try to be guests.

688

Um, you know, there's, there's always.

689

I think that's a good story to tell

about how you became, you know, part

690

of animal welfare or a particular

animal that you want to share.

691

I think that that's a

really good way of, of Yeah.

692

Raising awareness for your mission, but

also interacting with the community more.

693

DrG: So anybody listening, if

you want to get more information,

694

visit the deal with animals.

695

com and you can get information

on the podcast, on the episodes.

696

And also if you're so inclined to donate

to the animals from the Maui wildfires.

697

Marika Bell: Yeah.

698

Thank you so much.

699

DrG: Yeah.

700

Thank you so much for being here and

for everything that you're doing.

701

Keep up doing the good work.

702

And for everybody that's

listening, thank you for listening

703

and thank you for caring.